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July 4, 2020 9:44 AM Subscribe
The Last of Us Part 2 proves gaming doesn’t know how to deal with muscular women by Patricia Hernandez [Polygon] “Abby, a new character introduced in The Last of Us Part 2, does not fit the mold. Her face is anchored by a square jaw, which gives her visage a wider look — at least, compared to the heart-shaped face that defines most women in games. Perhaps most notably, Abby is buff. Your eyes are drawn to her chest and muscular arms, which, according to The Last of Us Part 2, she worked very hard across multiple years to beef up. [...] It’s been baffling to see some of the popular dissenting opinion on the game, which often directed against Abby. Part of the dislike seems unavoidable: The Last of Us Part 2 asks you to play as a character who is fundamentally opposed to the heroes we’ve spent hours learning to love and protect. Abby is a hard sell, and that would be true no matter what she looked like. But much of the hate visible on social media isn’t just about the story and Abby’s likability compared to Ellie and Joel, it’s fixated on Abby’s jacked-up body. [And the voice actor who played her]”
• A Discussion On Female Body Diversity In Games [Kotaku]
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• A Discussion On Female Body Diversity In Games [Kotaku]
“..., critic Anita Sarkeesian published a video about female body diversity in games. “All the Slender Ladies” examines why games often showcase thin, young, humanoid women but rarely feature lady rock creatures or skeletal female priestesses. Male video game characters, she says, more often deviate from standards of male attractiveness, she explains. “It’s as if male characters are free to embody whichever physique best communicates their personality or abilities,” Sarkeesian said, in comments that echoed a talk she gave in 2015 about the things she’d like to see change in video games. “But when it comes to the design of female characters, that kind of imagination or creativity doesn’t seem to exist,” Sarkeesian explains. When female game characters, and especially playable characters, are uniformly thin, young and attractive, Sarkeesian argues, it reinforces the idea that a woman’s value is tied to this body type. Game designers staying true to the trope may be pleasing a large part of their audience, but are simultaneously shooting themselves in the foot: Diverse personalities are better mirrored by diverse character designs. Your game isn’t that fun if everyone’s the same.”• Body diversity in character design: ‘We need to represent our audience better’ [MCV]
“Veteran freelance artist Lucy (Loukia) Kyriakidou addressed the need for more diverse bodies in games during her talk at Develop:Brighton yesterday. If you look at the main characters from the best selling games of 2018 (which she did, see below), it’s interesting to see how they’re not very different from one another and mostly show the same body types. Currently working on Battletoads’ characters and having extensive experience in character design, Kyriakidou explained simply why change is needed: “It is the right thing to do and it is what players want,” she said. “Studies have shown that players do want more diversity in games – and that’s general diversity, not just bodies. More than 50 per cent of gamers do believe that it’s getting better but we need to do more than just try to tick a box. Games have a social responsibility. We’re responsible for a lot of screen time in people’s lives so to not hold yourself accountable for the impact games have on people’s lives is no longer an option. “Also, accuracy is not an excuse not to have women and people of colour in your game. It’s not wrong to have muscular men and hourglass women bu we need to represent our audience better and the people who are actually playing our games. It’s great to have NPCs that are body diverse but it’s better to have the same for a protagonist.””• If female video game characters had realistic bodies, they would look like this [CNN]
“To demonstrate how they would look if they had more realistic body figures, an eating disorder help group redesigned Tifa Lockhart, Nabooru, Lara Croft and other kickass video game heroines using Adobe (ADBE) Photoshop. The parody images on Bulimia.com depict 10 virtual women with less supermodel-like physiques -- bigger arms and legs, wider midsections and hips. But they still look good. Video game makers have the ability to control how female bodies are designed, Bulimia.com argues. Spreading unrealistic body imagery helps entrench certain ideas of perfection in the media, adding more social pressure to women and girls. "Girl gamers -- especially young ones -- could develop a skewed image of how the female body should look," the images' creators write. "This might mark the beginning of obsessive thoughts about their own bodies, and self-questioning as to why they don't align with their perceived ideal." Here's how some of gaming's biggest female stars would look with more realistic body types.”
The death threats Laura Bailey has been getting are fucking abhorrent. A voice actor is not the characters they play. God.
posted by Kitchen Witch at 9:56 AM on July 4, 2020 [23 favorites]
posted by Kitchen Witch at 9:56 AM on July 4, 2020 [23 favorites]
I'm confused. Why do people think her body is unrealistic? It looks fit but normal to me. I know plenty of active women who look like that and aren't necessarily in some kind of boot camp exercise regime.
Have these guys ever met any women off-screen?
posted by cnidaria at 9:58 AM on July 4, 2020 [25 favorites]
Have these guys ever met any women off-screen?
posted by cnidaria at 9:58 AM on July 4, 2020 [25 favorites]
I'm still making my way through the game (let's avoid spoilers please) but Abby is not unrealistic. I didn't share them here because fuck them, but if you do a google search, you'll find all kinds of reddit threads and articles about Abby having an "unrealistic" body and there's quite a bit of transphobia that also gets pulled into this argument. It's pretty disgusting.
I'm glad we're seeing Abby jacked and badass. Without getting into spoilers, I'll say this, her character and role in the story of The Last of Us Part 2 is complicated. Her body and muscles are not. They just are.
posted by Fizz at 10:01 AM on July 4, 2020 [7 favorites]
I'm glad we're seeing Abby jacked and badass. Without getting into spoilers, I'll say this, her character and role in the story of The Last of Us Part 2 is complicated. Her body and muscles are not. They just are.
posted by Fizz at 10:01 AM on July 4, 2020 [7 favorites]
From the link description I was expecting something like Zarya from Overwatch (who is awesome but cartoonishly buff). But no, this just looks like an average woman who got into lifting weights.
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:01 AM on July 4, 2020 [13 favorites]
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:01 AM on July 4, 2020 [13 favorites]
I appreciated this quote from the MCV link: "Weight is NOT a personality trait. No, big characters are not always funny." I read a ton of genre fiction, especially fantasy, and god, the authorial shortcut to portray an evil character is so often based in bad physical stereotypes.
posted by spamandkimchi at 10:03 AM on July 4, 2020 [7 favorites]
posted by spamandkimchi at 10:03 AM on July 4, 2020 [7 favorites]
Abby looks fit and fine to me. Haters to the curb.
posted by seanmpuckett at 10:12 AM on July 4, 2020
posted by seanmpuckett at 10:12 AM on July 4, 2020
Body diversity in character design: ‘We need to represent our audience better’
Justin McElroy (late of Polygon.com) has said that, in character creation, he never tries to make a character who looks like him, because in real life he's overweight, and it's basically never possible to make a character who looks like him. And if he tries to get as close as the settings will allow, he's just made a buffer, skinnier version of himself, and that whole concept makes him so uncomfortable that he'd rather just play a completely imaginary character.
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:12 AM on July 4, 2020 [19 favorites]
Justin McElroy (late of Polygon.com) has said that, in character creation, he never tries to make a character who looks like him, because in real life he's overweight, and it's basically never possible to make a character who looks like him. And if he tries to get as close as the settings will allow, he's just made a buffer, skinnier version of himself, and that whole concept makes him so uncomfortable that he'd rather just play a completely imaginary character.
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:12 AM on July 4, 2020 [19 favorites]
SO this is very very very strange for me because... I look like Abby. Like Jawline- body, hair color, musculature... Like- this is bizarre. My face is a little different. Wow. It's funny because I don't think the body as pictured- my body, this one made of pixels is that buff, hell I'd like to be buffer... But the internet thinks I'm "unrealistic". This is a character in a video game who looks very much like me- and she's a bad guy. I need a minute.
posted by Homo neanderthalensis at 10:13 AM on July 4, 2020 [45 favorites]
posted by Homo neanderthalensis at 10:13 AM on July 4, 2020 [45 favorites]
Was going to say roughly what showbiz_liz did: I read the description and expected a cartoonishly swole woman, that is not what I got when I clicked the link. Attractive, fit woman who works out to put on muscle.
I have to imagine that the realism is what is threatening for some of the complainers, the idea that real women might actually look like this.
posted by mark k at 10:21 AM on July 4, 2020 [11 favorites]
I have to imagine that the realism is what is threatening for some of the complainers, the idea that real women might actually look like this.
posted by mark k at 10:21 AM on July 4, 2020 [11 favorites]
I have a friend who's champion crewer who looks like that and she's well into her '60s. All the women on her crew team are of similar age and build.
posted by octothorpe at 10:23 AM on July 4, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by octothorpe at 10:23 AM on July 4, 2020 [4 favorites]
One of the things I really enjoy about the TTRPG Masksis that the images for all the different character types are based on a pretty wide variety of ethnicities and body types, and the illustrations of various heroes and villains do likewise, so, say, the evil telepath is not going to be super-buff, because why would she, she’s a telepath! Even the super strong guy might not look real buff if his strength is from something other than his actual muscles. I mean, either could be, if they really like the gym, but it’s not like every super powered person gets a bonus six pack.
posted by GenjiandProust at 10:23 AM on July 4, 2020
posted by GenjiandProust at 10:23 AM on July 4, 2020
I also liked the reenvisioning of Tifa from FF7, who is a boxer and shouldn’t be so waiflike. The new version looks like she could throw a punch, Although she should probably tie her hair up. Just for safety. You don’t want to put a robot on top of a train with all that hair flying around.
posted by GenjiandProust at 10:26 AM on July 4, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by GenjiandProust at 10:26 AM on July 4, 2020 [4 favorites]
Just to be clear, as long as were being realistic, Sephiroth also needs to tie his hair up, and I don’t even know how he gets the doors with that sword.
posted by GenjiandProust at 10:30 AM on July 4, 2020 [9 favorites]
posted by GenjiandProust at 10:30 AM on July 4, 2020 [9 favorites]
I wonder if 4chan and Reddit had been around when Terminator 2 came out if Linda Hamilton would've gotten death threats?
That is a realistic body for an athletic woman who trains hard.
posted by BrotherCaine at 10:43 AM on July 4, 2020 [16 favorites]
That is a realistic body for an athletic woman who trains hard.
posted by BrotherCaine at 10:43 AM on July 4, 2020 [16 favorites]
I'm confused. Why do people think her body is unrealistic? It looks fit but normal to me. I know plenty of active women who look like that and aren't necessarily in some kind of boot camp exercise regime.
Have these guys ever met any women off-screen?
I feel like I'm missing something, also. In the various links, all the images of her look pretty much normal to me -- she is fit and looks tough (as is apparently appropriate for her character), but she isn't ridiculously steroided/cartoonishly muscled by any stretch of the imagination. Even if someone's ideas of "normal" have been influenced by PornHub and other video games, they should still be used to seeing regular women (cis, trans, various ethnicities and ages, etc.) at the grocery store, jogging past on the street, and so on -- a fit woman should not be a shock to the system.
The intense misogyny of so many video game fans is, from the outside, extremely gross and off-putting. I can only imagine what it is like to experience that from the inside.
posted by Dip Flash at 10:47 AM on July 4, 2020 [18 favorites]
Have these guys ever met any women off-screen?
I feel like I'm missing something, also. In the various links, all the images of her look pretty much normal to me -- she is fit and looks tough (as is apparently appropriate for her character), but she isn't ridiculously steroided/cartoonishly muscled by any stretch of the imagination. Even if someone's ideas of "normal" have been influenced by PornHub and other video games, they should still be used to seeing regular women (cis, trans, various ethnicities and ages, etc.) at the grocery store, jogging past on the street, and so on -- a fit woman should not be a shock to the system.
The intense misogyny of so many video game fans is, from the outside, extremely gross and off-putting. I can only imagine what it is like to experience that from the inside.
posted by Dip Flash at 10:47 AM on July 4, 2020 [18 favorites]
As always, the shitheel reactionary nerds reveal the limits of their feeble imaginations, the shallowness of the attention they pay the world around them, and the contours of their prejudices when they flip out over what they do or don't consider "realistic."
This was not a game or series I was interested in until I heard these chuds were upset. It must be doing something worthwhile if these pathetic boys are trying to stop it.
posted by EatTheWeek at 10:54 AM on July 4, 2020 [13 favorites]
This was not a game or series I was interested in until I heard these chuds were upset. It must be doing something worthwhile if these pathetic boys are trying to stop it.
posted by EatTheWeek at 10:54 AM on July 4, 2020 [13 favorites]
I get thrown out of a game when all of the women look basically the same.
This was really striking in The Witcher 3 because it had amazing design otherwise. Each region had its own character - for example, you'd travel to a new region and notice that the cottages had a different design motif on their doorframes.
But then all of the major female NPCs seemed like they were designed by a committee of dudes trying to determine the body and face template that would be maximally attractive to the widest number of other dudes. They just made slight tweaks.
It really broke the immersion. It was like one of those viral photos about glitches in the matrix. It was impossible not to see the forces at work behind their design.
And of course major male NPCs had a variety of body types and facial shapes. Even when they had the same job. The main character is handsome, I guess, but the male NPCS - free from the wish fulfillment of the designers - just looked like a variety of regular dudes.
It's amazing to me that the designers (and large parts of the audience) are so blind to how bad this type of character design is. Like, how can it not undermine the artistic credibility of the work?
They whine about realism when you add a buff woman to a game, but they don't see a problem when every major female character is designed to fit some narrow definition of attractive.
Makes me think it's not really about art or realism at all.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 10:55 AM on July 4, 2020 [56 favorites]
This was really striking in The Witcher 3 because it had amazing design otherwise. Each region had its own character - for example, you'd travel to a new region and notice that the cottages had a different design motif on their doorframes.
But then all of the major female NPCs seemed like they were designed by a committee of dudes trying to determine the body and face template that would be maximally attractive to the widest number of other dudes. They just made slight tweaks.
It really broke the immersion. It was like one of those viral photos about glitches in the matrix. It was impossible not to see the forces at work behind their design.
And of course major male NPCs had a variety of body types and facial shapes. Even when they had the same job. The main character is handsome, I guess, but the male NPCS - free from the wish fulfillment of the designers - just looked like a variety of regular dudes.
It's amazing to me that the designers (and large parts of the audience) are so blind to how bad this type of character design is. Like, how can it not undermine the artistic credibility of the work?
They whine about realism when you add a buff woman to a game, but they don't see a problem when every major female character is designed to fit some narrow definition of attractive.
Makes me think it's not really about art or realism at all.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 10:55 AM on July 4, 2020 [56 favorites]
there's quite a bit of transphobia that also gets pulled into this argument
I believe that's reversing cause and effect. Calling this a controversy over depiction of women's body types is like calling gamergate a controversy over journalistic ethics. Content warning for transphobia (and also a big game spoiler if anyone cares).
In late April a contractor on TLoU2 leaked a good deal of footage from the game, covering some pivotal moments from the plot. This included the scene where Abby kills Joel, the first game's protagonist. Based entirely on her build, awful people immediately started spreading the rumor that Abby is a trans woman, stating this as a fact known from the leak. The narrative was set: a trans woman, the #1 target of channer assholes, kills a beloved character. Cue yelling about SJWs, forced diversity, I'm sure you know the tune. Someone like their chosen enemy killed someone they strongly identify with.
When the game came out and there was no indication that Abby was AMAB (because that was a rumor founded on thin air), they couldn't let that anger go to waste. The revised story: Abby's body type is unrealistic, they say with a wink. What they mean by that is to suggest that Abby is transgender without saying so. This allows them to continue to label her and therefore her actor, writers, and the company as a whole as acceptable targets.
posted by skymt at 11:06 AM on July 4, 2020 [25 favorites]
I believe that's reversing cause and effect. Calling this a controversy over depiction of women's body types is like calling gamergate a controversy over journalistic ethics. Content warning for transphobia (and also a big game spoiler if anyone cares).
Some background on this BS.
In late April a contractor on TLoU2 leaked a good deal of footage from the game, covering some pivotal moments from the plot. This included the scene where Abby kills Joel, the first game's protagonist. Based entirely on her build, awful people immediately started spreading the rumor that Abby is a trans woman, stating this as a fact known from the leak. The narrative was set: a trans woman, the #1 target of channer assholes, kills a beloved character. Cue yelling about SJWs, forced diversity, I'm sure you know the tune. Someone like their chosen enemy killed someone they strongly identify with.
When the game came out and there was no indication that Abby was AMAB (because that was a rumor founded on thin air), they couldn't let that anger go to waste. The revised story: Abby's body type is unrealistic, they say with a wink. What they mean by that is to suggest that Abby is transgender without saying so. This allows them to continue to label her and therefore her actor, writers, and the company as a whole as acceptable targets.
posted by skymt at 11:06 AM on July 4, 2020 [25 favorites]
It seems odd to me that a person would be overweight in a post-apocalyptic world. I would think most people would tend to be either severely underweight, lean muscle-buffed at best OR suffering the effects of various and sundry malnutrition issues.
posted by drivingmenuts at 11:09 AM on July 4, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by drivingmenuts at 11:09 AM on July 4, 2020 [3 favorites]
A lot of people are expressing surprise and disbelief that anyone would consider Abby's physique to be 'unrealistic'. That's because, as we all know, it isn't.
I'm reminded of something I read a while ago (almost certainly on Metafilter), namely: people aren't really all that rational. Instead, reason is often used post hoc to justify our choices, feelings, and beliefs. I think that's what's happening here; these people simply want to look at a character model designed to titillate them, are upset that they got something different, and are retconning a reason why they are 'objectively' correct.
And for the record, let me add my voice to the growing chorus: that character model looks like women I know. None of us is crazy for not getting the complaints!
posted by dbx at 11:09 AM on July 4, 2020 [22 favorites]
I'm reminded of something I read a while ago (almost certainly on Metafilter), namely: people aren't really all that rational. Instead, reason is often used post hoc to justify our choices, feelings, and beliefs. I think that's what's happening here; these people simply want to look at a character model designed to titillate them, are upset that they got something different, and are retconning a reason why they are 'objectively' correct.
And for the record, let me add my voice to the growing chorus: that character model looks like women I know. None of us is crazy for not getting the complaints!
posted by dbx at 11:09 AM on July 4, 2020 [22 favorites]
It seems odd to me that a person would be overweight in a post-apocalyptic world. I would think most people would tend to be either severely underweight, lean muscle-buffed at best OR suffering the effects of various and sundry malnutrition issues.
She's not overweight. She fucking ripped as hell, like male characters always are in post-apocalyptic games. Do you question the realism of those?
posted by hydropsyche at 11:20 AM on July 4, 2020 [13 favorites]
She's not overweight. She fucking ripped as hell, like male characters always are in post-apocalyptic games. Do you question the realism of those?
posted by hydropsyche at 11:20 AM on July 4, 2020 [13 favorites]
She looks like farm women I've known. Pitch bales, flip sheep for shearing, eat so you've got physical energy every day instead of eating to be skinny, and that's the kind of body you get.
posted by clawsoon at 11:23 AM on July 4, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by clawsoon at 11:23 AM on July 4, 2020 [2 favorites]
She's not overweight. She fucking ripped as hell, like male characters always are in post-apocalyptic games. Do you question the realism of those?
Yes, other games are different and less realistic. At least in this game, she's the most jacked person I can recall seeing. In a totally realistic, achievable way, if you had some reason to do so. And I could swear you see her in-game more toned than most of the images the articles provide regularly. It pervades into gameplay as well. Ellie's stealth kill involves slitting throats with a pocket knife; Abby just uses her bare hands (and arms). Which you do repeatedly, as gun ammo is intentionally low by genre convention.
her character and role in the story of The Last of Us Part 2 is complicated. Her body and muscles are not. They just are.
I think there's an argument to be made that they are part of her complicated story. It's hard to discuss this without spoilers obviously, but all the character's bodies change over time, in meaningful ways. It's not an accident of genetics, or conforming to a natural body type. She became muscular on purpose, for a purpose (hint: it wasn't to win the Worlds Strongest Woman contest). Virtually the first thing you do in her story arc is walk by the active weightlifting gym outside her residence.
As best I can tell, Abby as a character is intended to depict a woman adopting and embracing toxic masculinity. Given the LBGTQ plots throughout the game, it does leave you wondering if there's more backstory to be told for much of the game though.
posted by pwnguin at 11:36 AM on July 4, 2020 [1 favorite]
Yes, other games are different and less realistic. At least in this game, she's the most jacked person I can recall seeing. In a totally realistic, achievable way, if you had some reason to do so. And I could swear you see her in-game more toned than most of the images the articles provide regularly. It pervades into gameplay as well. Ellie's stealth kill involves slitting throats with a pocket knife; Abby just uses her bare hands (and arms). Which you do repeatedly, as gun ammo is intentionally low by genre convention.
her character and role in the story of The Last of Us Part 2 is complicated. Her body and muscles are not. They just are.
I think there's an argument to be made that they are part of her complicated story. It's hard to discuss this without spoilers obviously, but all the character's bodies change over time, in meaningful ways. It's not an accident of genetics, or conforming to a natural body type. She became muscular on purpose, for a purpose (hint: it wasn't to win the Worlds Strongest Woman contest). Virtually the first thing you do in her story arc is walk by the active weightlifting gym outside her residence.
As best I can tell, Abby as a character is intended to depict a woman adopting and embracing toxic masculinity. Given the LBGTQ plots throughout the game, it does leave you wondering if there's more backstory to be told for much of the game though.
posted by pwnguin at 11:36 AM on July 4, 2020 [1 favorite]
I just finished watching a Let's Play of this game, and I love Abby more than any other fictional game character in recent memory. (I have a VERY negative opinion on what the game forces the player to do or go through, but that's neither here nor there.) More characters like Abby please, and more women and minority genders in lead staff positions.
posted by erratic meatsack at 11:44 AM on July 4, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by erratic meatsack at 11:44 AM on July 4, 2020 [4 favorites]
I believe that's reversing cause and effect.@skymt, thanks for clarifying the timeline of events and how they're related to each other. I avoided that spoiler/leak when it happened a few months ago, so wasn't aware.
posted by Fizz at 11:52 AM on July 4, 2020
I always thought it was hilarious that Tifa was supposed to be a boxer and that her weapons are gloves for punching and she has these tiny little spaghetti arms like mine, and I need two hands to pick up my cast iron pan. I'm not knocking out a monster with a punch! At least Tifa had flat boots on, I hate walking around the countryside and fighting monsters in 4 inch heels!
I was expecting Abby to look WAY more muscular than she does based on descriptions - she looks like... physical work muscular, or "does a lot of pushups" or "prefers a lift-based workout" buff, not jacked up or anything, really. It feels like it would be helpful to be quite fit in a zombie apocalypse. So many people are like "it would be IMPOSSIBLE to look like that" but it's like.. I know lots of women who look a lot like that. Especially women who work in physical labour like on a farm or with horses or construction. Also in broad generalities, a lot of women don't drop weight in the way that men do when they restrict their calories. I know this from watching a bunch of survivor where 40 days on an island makes all men lose between 8-25 lbs and women usually lose about 4-6lbs.
posted by euphoria066 at 11:56 AM on July 4, 2020 [9 favorites]
I was expecting Abby to look WAY more muscular than she does based on descriptions - she looks like... physical work muscular, or "does a lot of pushups" or "prefers a lift-based workout" buff, not jacked up or anything, really. It feels like it would be helpful to be quite fit in a zombie apocalypse. So many people are like "it would be IMPOSSIBLE to look like that" but it's like.. I know lots of women who look a lot like that. Especially women who work in physical labour like on a farm or with horses or construction. Also in broad generalities, a lot of women don't drop weight in the way that men do when they restrict their calories. I know this from watching a bunch of survivor where 40 days on an island makes all men lose between 8-25 lbs and women usually lose about 4-6lbs.
posted by euphoria066 at 11:56 AM on July 4, 2020 [9 favorites]
"Realism" here is just the new "ethics in game journalism." The misogynist chuds just can't handle a female character that isn't 100% designed for the male gaze.
posted by rodlymight at 11:59 AM on July 4, 2020 [19 favorites]
posted by rodlymight at 11:59 AM on July 4, 2020 [19 favorites]
Noting that I haven't played TLOU2 and noped out of the first one right after the giraffes because I got sick of upsetting Ellie, and that the internal logic of fictional situations like this can almost never withstand even cursory scrutiny:
I would think most people would tend to be either severely underweight, lean muscle-buffed at best OR suffering the effects of various and sundry malnutrition issues.
It's not a poison-the-earth kind of apocalypse, and people have been able to sustain lowish population densities in North America without extreme effort for tens of thousands of years.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 12:06 PM on July 4, 2020 [3 favorites]
I would think most people would tend to be either severely underweight, lean muscle-buffed at best OR suffering the effects of various and sundry malnutrition issues.
It's not a poison-the-earth kind of apocalypse, and people have been able to sustain lowish population densities in North America without extreme effort for tens of thousands of years.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 12:06 PM on July 4, 2020 [3 favorites]
Male gamers are immersed in media that portrays the "normal" woman with a decidedly not-average body type, so they assume that's what women are supposed to look like, so they demand their media contain women that look like that, and the cycle continues.
I also wonder how many of the trolls are teenage-and-younger boys who assume that if you're a "healthy" adult woman then you have the body of the average middle-to-high school girl with larger boobs and butt.
posted by Anonymous at 12:07 PM on July 4, 2020
I also wonder how many of the trolls are teenage-and-younger boys who assume that if you're a "healthy" adult woman then you have the body of the average middle-to-high school girl with larger boobs and butt.
posted by Anonymous at 12:07 PM on July 4, 2020
Also I am so tired of the sensitivity of these fucking trollboys. "Oh noes, someone employed bog-standard, utterly ubiquitous feminist theory to lightly criticize my favorite game! Oh noes, this female character doesn't look exactly like I want her to! Oh noes, these mechanics are different than I like! I couldn't possibly ignore the criticism or play something else, I have to cry and throw tantrums and send death threats! Waahhh! Waaaaaaaaaahhhh!" They're such utter fucking entitled babies.
posted by Anonymous at 12:13 PM on July 4, 2020
posted by Anonymous at 12:13 PM on July 4, 2020
It seems odd to me that a person would be overweight in a post-apocalyptic world. I would think most people would tend to be either severely underweight, lean muscle-buffed at best OR suffering the effects of various and sundry malnutrition issues.
So a character's weight is where the line of realism is drawn in a post-apocalyptic world but not the endless amounts of bullets that are just strewn about or the fact that there are zombies that have grown grotesque mushroom heads from toxic-mutant spores. Okaaaaaay.
posted by Fizz at 12:13 PM on July 4, 2020 [24 favorites]
So a character's weight is where the line of realism is drawn in a post-apocalyptic world but not the endless amounts of bullets that are just strewn about or the fact that there are zombies that have grown grotesque mushroom heads from toxic-mutant spores. Okaaaaaay.
posted by Fizz at 12:13 PM on July 4, 2020 [24 favorites]
Leaving out that zombie mushroom heads are an excellent source of protein and several essential vitamins and minerals…
posted by GenjiandProust at 12:16 PM on July 4, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by GenjiandProust at 12:16 PM on July 4, 2020 [3 favorites]
I mean, why not?
posted by GenjiandProust at 12:16 PM on July 4, 2020
posted by GenjiandProust at 12:16 PM on July 4, 2020
The Venn diagram overlap of popular culture and nerd culture and hate culture is frighteningly large at this moment in history.
posted by treepour at 12:23 PM on July 4, 2020 [19 favorites]
posted by treepour at 12:23 PM on July 4, 2020 [19 favorites]
Good god, people are disconnected from the look of real, functional human bodies.
Indeed, as it was mentioned up above, it's because the people who develop these games tend to perpetuate very specific ideas of what a person is supposed to look like, and it's been regurgitated so much over so much time that we have an entire generation of people who think this is what people "should look like".
posted by Fizz at 12:40 PM on July 4, 2020 [3 favorites]
Indeed, as it was mentioned up above, it's because the people who develop these games tend to perpetuate very specific ideas of what a person is supposed to look like, and it's been regurgitated so much over so much time that we have an entire generation of people who think this is what people "should look like".
posted by Fizz at 12:40 PM on July 4, 2020 [3 favorites]
This kind of negative attitude and transphobia about women with muscles is not solely the domain of gamer trolls. Women in the real world who lift weights or are muscular routinely face this kind of criticism, from being accused of taking PEDs and being AMAB. They’re derided as not being feminine, trying to become men, or even that they are damaging their internal organs and risking their fertility or being bad mothers because they’re neglecting their destinies as mothers, dishwashers, and sandwich makers because they spend time training for a sport. Often, the men spitting this vitriol at women are fans/participants in strength sports themselves. They’re personal trainers (or claim to be), weightlifters, powerlifters and gym goers. The way women who dare post a picture of their muscles or their accomplishments (or are covered in sports media at all) are treated is appalling. There’s an Instagram account and blog that covers this and finds no shortage of abusive comments and messages from men to generate content: You Look Like A Man
This account is where I first heard of this “controversy” and it’s definitely very eye opening.
posted by Fuego at 12:41 PM on July 4, 2020 [20 favorites]
This account is where I first heard of this “controversy” and it’s definitely very eye opening.
posted by Fuego at 12:41 PM on July 4, 2020 [20 favorites]
I’m not going to comment on other people’s bodies (and honestly extending that to virtual bodies modeled on real humans / intended to be seen as real is not much of a stretch) because that’s a thing I’m trying really hard not to do anymore and I’m trying to model that behavior for my kids. But I think I can say in a neutral way that I didn’t see anything unrealistic in the body shape presented in those images
In fact I’m pretty sure I saw Abby and her partner at Home Depot this morning loading up some pressure treated lumber in a pick-up. Minus the hammer and the I’m going to murder you look. I had to wait for them to clear their cart so I could get to my car. Oh - I think she had a mask on as well.
So be more like Abby I guess (I.e wearing a mask and remembering to use pressure treated wood for any ground contact construction).
posted by inflatablekiwi at 12:43 PM on July 4, 2020 [11 favorites]
In fact I’m pretty sure I saw Abby and her partner at Home Depot this morning loading up some pressure treated lumber in a pick-up. Minus the hammer and the I’m going to murder you look. I had to wait for them to clear their cart so I could get to my car. Oh - I think she had a mask on as well.
So be more like Abby I guess (I.e wearing a mask and remembering to use pressure treated wood for any ground contact construction).
posted by inflatablekiwi at 12:43 PM on July 4, 2020 [11 favorites]
Male gamers are immersed in media that portrays the "normal" woman with a decidedly not-average body type
So, I have some really conflicted feelings about this line of thinking. REALLY conflicted feelings.
As a woman, I don't believe that women in games should be designed for the male gaze, and I welcome the increase in body diversity that's been coming lately. Abby seems perfectly fine and I rejoice in her buffness. But one thing that always makes me feel really weird about this conversation is that this increase in body diversity often seems to be coming with less "breasts and hips" because it's male gazey, and like - that makes me feel complicated feels not just as a woman who has larger breasts and hips but as a Latina who has an entirely average figure in that cultural context.
I feel like a lot of the time - and I'm not saying you or anyone here is specifically aiming for this, but this is what I hear when this sort of thing is talked about with the usual stereotypes - the talk about 'normal' women's body types is focused on 'normal' white women's body types, whereas body types that are very normal women's body types for Latinas and black women, who generally have differently sized waist-hip ratios than white women, are dismissed as exaggerated stereotypes of women's bodies. And an attempt to 'remove unrealism in games' winds up with what feels to me like erasure. Like, I've noticed over the last five years that character customization models will no longer let me choose my actual figure because it's 'too unrealistic'. You can no longer, in a lot of games that used to allow that customization, customize your figure to create the 'hourglass' - they are moving to things like 'athletic build' vs 'heavy build' that winds up flattening everything. So it feels far less like 'increase in body diversity' and more 'we've decided that your body is bad'.
And I have really complicated feels about where it seems to suggest that bodies that look like mine and my family's and friends are abnormal and only exist as part of the sexualized male gaze and thus should be somehow avoided or decentered. Because it goes kind of part and parcel with a very specific type of history of racialized attacks on sexuality as well - the denigration of black and Latina women as just sexual and less worthy as opposed to 'pure' white women simply because of body configurations.
And again, I don't think anyone is doing this intentionally. But it makes me have a lot of inner conflict over this stuff and I am trying to speak up more about that.
posted by corb at 12:47 PM on July 4, 2020 [40 favorites]
So, I have some really conflicted feelings about this line of thinking. REALLY conflicted feelings.
As a woman, I don't believe that women in games should be designed for the male gaze, and I welcome the increase in body diversity that's been coming lately. Abby seems perfectly fine and I rejoice in her buffness. But one thing that always makes me feel really weird about this conversation is that this increase in body diversity often seems to be coming with less "breasts and hips" because it's male gazey, and like - that makes me feel complicated feels not just as a woman who has larger breasts and hips but as a Latina who has an entirely average figure in that cultural context.
I feel like a lot of the time - and I'm not saying you or anyone here is specifically aiming for this, but this is what I hear when this sort of thing is talked about with the usual stereotypes - the talk about 'normal' women's body types is focused on 'normal' white women's body types, whereas body types that are very normal women's body types for Latinas and black women, who generally have differently sized waist-hip ratios than white women, are dismissed as exaggerated stereotypes of women's bodies. And an attempt to 'remove unrealism in games' winds up with what feels to me like erasure. Like, I've noticed over the last five years that character customization models will no longer let me choose my actual figure because it's 'too unrealistic'. You can no longer, in a lot of games that used to allow that customization, customize your figure to create the 'hourglass' - they are moving to things like 'athletic build' vs 'heavy build' that winds up flattening everything. So it feels far less like 'increase in body diversity' and more 'we've decided that your body is bad'.
And I have really complicated feels about where it seems to suggest that bodies that look like mine and my family's and friends are abnormal and only exist as part of the sexualized male gaze and thus should be somehow avoided or decentered. Because it goes kind of part and parcel with a very specific type of history of racialized attacks on sexuality as well - the denigration of black and Latina women as just sexual and less worthy as opposed to 'pure' white women simply because of body configurations.
And again, I don't think anyone is doing this intentionally. But it makes me have a lot of inner conflict over this stuff and I am trying to speak up more about that.
posted by corb at 12:47 PM on July 4, 2020 [40 favorites]
Corb, those are all very good points to make and I'm glad you brought them here. Makes me think of how developers at a certain point started to listen to some criticisms and introduced brown & black skin tones but then didn't think to include diversity in hair design which left out a lot of racialized people with regards to customization in character creation.
Always two steps forward and then one back.
posted by Fizz at 12:52 PM on July 4, 2020 [4 favorites]
Always two steps forward and then one back.
posted by Fizz at 12:52 PM on July 4, 2020 [4 favorites]
the fact that there are zombies that have grown grotesque mushroom heads from toxic-mutant spores
I'm not sure that knowing this will help anyone sleep at night, but those toxic zombie spores actually exist:
posted by pwnguin at 12:53 PM on July 4, 2020 [1 favorite]
I'm not sure that knowing this will help anyone sleep at night, but those toxic zombie spores actually exist:
After the fungus enters the ant it propagates, and fungal cells can be found beside the host’s brain. Once the population is of sufficient size, the fungus secretes compounds and takes over the central nervous system (CNS), which enables it to manipulate the ant to reach the forest floor and climb up the vegetation.[14]It's only a mutant in the sense that in the game it infects ants instead of humans.
posted by pwnguin at 12:53 PM on July 4, 2020 [1 favorite]
I'm VERY aware, it's both amazing and horrifying all at once.
posted by Fizz at 12:55 PM on July 4, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by Fizz at 12:55 PM on July 4, 2020 [1 favorite]
Can we not do the "average Latinas have curves" shit please?
it's honestly the most baffling thing to me, that ppl think an unimaginably diverse population of people grouped together solely by where they come from and what language they speak, more than half a billion ppl from 30 countries, can somehow be defined by unifying physical characteristics other than "human". latinx ppl are japanese peruvians, white uruguayans of 100% european descent, italian argentines, mestix mexicans, black cubans. we quite literally come in all possible shapes and colors and sizes and to assume that one particular way to look is the most "normal" way is just another harmful gross legacy of colonialism that we could all do without.
posted by poffin boffin at 1:23 PM on July 4, 2020 [32 favorites]
it's honestly the most baffling thing to me, that ppl think an unimaginably diverse population of people grouped together solely by where they come from and what language they speak, more than half a billion ppl from 30 countries, can somehow be defined by unifying physical characteristics other than "human". latinx ppl are japanese peruvians, white uruguayans of 100% european descent, italian argentines, mestix mexicans, black cubans. we quite literally come in all possible shapes and colors and sizes and to assume that one particular way to look is the most "normal" way is just another harmful gross legacy of colonialism that we could all do without.
posted by poffin boffin at 1:23 PM on July 4, 2020 [32 favorites]
I definitely didn’t expect the character to look like she does given the complaints. She’s more or less the body type I aspire to, and in non-pandemic times (when I can go to my climbing gym) achieve parts of. And I’ve definitely seen her (as well as just as muscular, but shorter or taller or more butt or etc versions of her) in said climbing gym. In fact since the climbing gym is where I most often see other women revealing their arms/shoulders/back, it’s a little too easy for me to think this is actually the average female body type.
Gamer dudes and clothing manufactures alike are still somehow convinced women with muscular arms don’t exist. Wtf, mate.
posted by nat at 1:25 PM on July 4, 2020 [5 favorites]
Gamer dudes and clothing manufactures alike are still somehow convinced women with muscular arms don’t exist. Wtf, mate.
posted by nat at 1:25 PM on July 4, 2020 [5 favorites]
we should crush them with our buff guns
posted by poffin boffin at 1:35 PM on July 4, 2020 [13 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin at 1:35 PM on July 4, 2020 [13 favorites]
Someone like Tifa Lockhart who is able to combine adulthood, very low body-fat percentage, very high hip-waist and/or bust-waist ratios, low muscle tone, and an incredible level of athleticism has a body that exists in the tail of the distribution and is not achievable by most people. Irrespective of race.
Like, athleticism + low muscle tone is disqualification enough when trying to establish expectations for the average physiological response to training. But we have a culture that expects that of our heroines. And that's not great.
posted by Anonymous at 1:36 PM on July 4, 2020
Like, athleticism + low muscle tone is disqualification enough when trying to establish expectations for the average physiological response to training. But we have a culture that expects that of our heroines. And that's not great.
posted by Anonymous at 1:36 PM on July 4, 2020
Have these guys ever met any women off-screen?
We have a winner.
No they haven't, because the whole of their frightened little lives is spent in their pathetic little troll caves pretending to be superheroes that they will never, never, never have what it takes to resemble personally whatsoever.
For healthy people, games are recreational. For the kind of fuckhead who cracks the sads every time a woman who doesn't resemble one of a tiny range of stereotypes drifts across their orbit, they're a substitute for the life they're too lazy and/or cowardly to encounter in the real world.
posted by flabdablet at 3:10 PM on July 4, 2020 [1 favorite]
We have a winner.
No they haven't, because the whole of their frightened little lives is spent in their pathetic little troll caves pretending to be superheroes that they will never, never, never have what it takes to resemble personally whatsoever.
For healthy people, games are recreational. For the kind of fuckhead who cracks the sads every time a woman who doesn't resemble one of a tiny range of stereotypes drifts across their orbit, they're a substitute for the life they're too lazy and/or cowardly to encounter in the real world.
posted by flabdablet at 3:10 PM on July 4, 2020 [1 favorite]
At the risk of spoiler-ing:
Abby is a key antagonist in the game but also a protagonist and emphatically not “the bad guy.” One of the important parts of this dialogue - at least the way I’m experiencing it on Twitter - is enormous affection for the character and her appearance. She’s not a monster whose evil manifests as a “weird body” at all.
posted by Tomorrowful at 3:10 PM on July 4, 2020 [4 favorites]
Abby is a key antagonist in the game but also a protagonist and emphatically not “the bad guy.” One of the important parts of this dialogue - at least the way I’m experiencing it on Twitter - is enormous affection for the character and her appearance. She’s not a monster whose evil manifests as a “weird body” at all.
posted by Tomorrowful at 3:10 PM on July 4, 2020 [4 favorites]
Dear Disney I was disappointed to see that in your movie The Lion The Witch And The Wardrobe you repeated C S Lewis' error when Susan Pevensie was given a bow and arrows by Father Christmas this was unrealistic and spoiled the movie for me because women cannot draw heavy bows so he would not have given them to her and it broke my suspension of disbelief when Queen Susan the Gentle took a leading part in the war against the White Witch she would not have done that also I have some other changes I would like to suggest […]
posted by Joe in Australia at 3:11 PM on July 4, 2020 [12 favorites]
posted by Joe in Australia at 3:11 PM on July 4, 2020 [12 favorites]
My God. I don't know why I was expecting a borderline, okay-maybe-I-can-see-young-and-stupid-guys-thinking-this-person-is-more-buff-than-most-women kind of situation, but when I clicked through... what!? Her body and her face are utterly normal. She actually looks a lot like a hockey-player girlfriend I had in high school. What on earth is WRONG with these people?
posted by saturday_morning at 5:10 PM on July 4, 2020 [7 favorites]
posted by saturday_morning at 5:10 PM on July 4, 2020 [7 favorites]
I do feel like this game is itself, brutal revenge on certain parties. Gamings throwback elements included.
posted by inpHilltr8r at 5:15 PM on July 4, 2020
posted by inpHilltr8r at 5:15 PM on July 4, 2020
Even the super strong guy might not look real buff if his strength is from something other than his actual muscles.
Scott Alexander has a story about a character who gains supernatural strength. He looks like someone who's never lifted weights in his life. He hasn't! He can't! When someone could effortlessly lift 1000 tons with one hand, they can't find objects to exercise with that would significantly burden their muscles.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 5:54 PM on July 4, 2020 [6 favorites]
Scott Alexander has a story about a character who gains supernatural strength. He looks like someone who's never lifted weights in his life. He hasn't! He can't! When someone could effortlessly lift 1000 tons with one hand, they can't find objects to exercise with that would significantly burden their muscles.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 5:54 PM on July 4, 2020 [6 favorites]
I'm not going to out of my way to look for it, but it seems odd that the gamer whining we're overhearing doesn't include the fact that there IS an explicitly trans character in the game. And I've not heard a word against the lesbian interfaith love story. Again, maybe there's another reddit or whatever full of that kind of smoothbrain nonsense. But still, the loudest noise these reactionary gamers are making is about a vengeance-driven woman who joined the paramilitaries and got swole? That's their high ground?
posted by bartleby at 5:57 PM on July 4, 2020
posted by bartleby at 5:57 PM on July 4, 2020
I guess I was expecting Jillian Michaels level of buff, but instead the image is basically me 15lbs ago. I don’t even lift very heavy (like seriously, I don’t think my bicep curls ever got above 15 lb weights) but I still have the arms anyway. Are these dudes really freaking out because there’s a woman with visible triceps? And the real question is, why are gaming companies listening to these freaks?
posted by Autumnheart at 6:26 PM on July 4, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by Autumnheart at 6:26 PM on July 4, 2020 [3 favorites]
I'd like to point out here that it's not just lame gamer dudes who have issues with women who match this model.
Even here on enlightened Metafilter I've seen cishet white dudes describe awesome fit women like Serena Williams and Grace Jones in her heyday as "intimidating" and "scary" -- polite ways of expressing the racist sentiment that Black women are too masculine to be considered attractive to a "normal" man.
Recall also the horrid Republican men and women who made vile comments about Michelle Obama's nicely toned arms when she wore the sleeveless dress.
In general, cishet dudes who say they like women in narrative fiction who can kick ass to not actually look the part, even when the narrative has them going thru the same hardships or training or scientific/magic process that causes a male character to add a ton of muscle mass and look sculpted.
posted by lord_wolf at 7:02 PM on July 4, 2020 [15 favorites]
Even here on enlightened Metafilter I've seen cishet white dudes describe awesome fit women like Serena Williams and Grace Jones in her heyday as "intimidating" and "scary" -- polite ways of expressing the racist sentiment that Black women are too masculine to be considered attractive to a "normal" man.
Recall also the horrid Republican men and women who made vile comments about Michelle Obama's nicely toned arms when she wore the sleeveless dress.
In general, cishet dudes who say they like women in narrative fiction who can kick ass to not actually look the part, even when the narrative has them going thru the same hardships or training or scientific/magic process that causes a male character to add a ton of muscle mass and look sculpted.
posted by lord_wolf at 7:02 PM on July 4, 2020 [15 favorites]
Obligatory Mass Effect comment: although I prefer playing as the female Commander Shepard (in part because Jennifer Hale's VA is awesome), my favorite visual representation of FemShep isn't in game, where she's given a very stereotypical model/pinup body; it's in fan art by an artist who goes by marceline2174, and this is how she draws Shepard: jacked, and also pretty scarred (which lines up with her backstory, which includes falling from orbit when her starship is destroyed and taking two years to bring back from death). She also does a lot of other videogame characters, mostly women, and always paying close attention to their body types; her Liara doesn't have the same body as Shepard, for example.
posted by Halloween Jack at 7:31 PM on July 4, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by Halloween Jack at 7:31 PM on July 4, 2020 [4 favorites]
On the subject of depicting what average looks like, I am reminded of an article I read not too long ago (from the blue? or perhaps HN) there is no such thing as an average human:
Beyond the mere impossibility of a normal body type, Abby is not a 'normal' person. She is an elite soldier, given special accommodations like a penthouse apartment in a skybox in Century Link field. Her roommate, presumably in the same situation, routinely cuts the lunch line and gets away with it. She is on a first-name basis with her commander in chief, and is given free range to pick her squadmates. She is atypical, and when these benefits are taken from her the physique fades.
This is a deliberate choice on the part of the authors; the marketing material on the back of the game's case informs players they will 'experience the devastating physical and emotional consequences of ... vengeance'. From flashbacks we know that she was not always muscular (or angry), that events from the previous game changed her, and we infer from that she she changed herself. Early in her part of the story, the tank tops she wears shows off the biceps in particular to the player, both in game and in cut-scene. It's not necessarily out of place for a soldier to wear such attire but it's very useful in contrasting her physique across her story arc. By the end she has lost those muscles and cast away her quest for revenge.
But still, the loudest noise these reactionary gamers are making is about a vengeance-driven woman who joined the paramilitaries and got swole
Perhaps Naughty Dog is pacing themselves? Transphobia was the pre-launch hype machine, now in the post release we're on body shaming, next month we'll probably be talking about the religious fundamentalists and the many religious allegories in the game, and then wrap up with a discussion of the slave plantations just in time for the DLC to go on sale.
posted by pwnguin at 9:45 PM on July 4, 2020 [6 favorites]
the consensus among his fellow air force researchers was that the vast majority of pilots would be within the average range on most dimensions. ... The scientists also expected that a sizable number of pilots would be within the average range on all 10 dimensions. But even Daniels was stunned when he tabulated the actual number.I guess that's an excerpt of a book I should read when I'm done with this stats textbook entitled The End of Average.
Zero
...
the Cleveland Plain Dealer announced on its front page a contest... [t]o submit body dimensions that most closely matched the typical woman, “Norma,” as represented by a statue on display at the Cleveland Health Museum...the creation of a well-known gynecologist, Dr. Robert L. Dickinson, and his collaborator Abram Belskie, who sculpted the figure based on size data collected from 15,000 young adult women.
reality turned out to be nothing of the sort. Less than 40 of the 3,864 contestants were average size on just five of the nine dimensions and none of the contestants — not even Martha Skidmore — came close on all nine dimensions. Just as Daniels’ study revealed there was no such thing as an average-size pilot, the Norma Look-Alike contest demonstrated that average-size women did not exist either.
Beyond the mere impossibility of a normal body type, Abby is not a 'normal' person. She is an elite soldier, given special accommodations like a penthouse apartment in a skybox in Century Link field. Her roommate, presumably in the same situation, routinely cuts the lunch line and gets away with it. She is on a first-name basis with her commander in chief, and is given free range to pick her squadmates. She is atypical, and when these benefits are taken from her the physique fades.
This is a deliberate choice on the part of the authors; the marketing material on the back of the game's case informs players they will 'experience the devastating physical and emotional consequences of ... vengeance'. From flashbacks we know that she was not always muscular (or angry), that events from the previous game changed her, and we infer from that she she changed herself. Early in her part of the story, the tank tops she wears shows off the biceps in particular to the player, both in game and in cut-scene. It's not necessarily out of place for a soldier to wear such attire but it's very useful in contrasting her physique across her story arc. By the end she has lost those muscles and cast away her quest for revenge.
But still, the loudest noise these reactionary gamers are making is about a vengeance-driven woman who joined the paramilitaries and got swole
Perhaps Naughty Dog is pacing themselves? Transphobia was the pre-launch hype machine, now in the post release we're on body shaming, next month we'll probably be talking about the religious fundamentalists and the many religious allegories in the game, and then wrap up with a discussion of the slave plantations just in time for the DLC to go on sale.
posted by pwnguin at 9:45 PM on July 4, 2020 [6 favorites]
Y'know, from the post text, before I clicked through and saw any pictures, I was expecting her to look like Brick from Incredibles 2, or possibly (googles "The Cell") Kim Chizevsky-Nicholls, but in the posted pictures she just looks like Rosie the Riveter. In what universe is Rosie the Riveter impossibly muscular?
Oh, wait. Most of these gamerdudes are too young to remember American Gladiators.
And yeah, obviously there have never been muscular women since American Gladiators, nor can you do a google image search for like "female bodybuilders" or "women's fitness" or something like that. Fucking gamerdudes.
posted by Mister Moofoo at 10:10 PM on July 4, 2020 [1 favorite]
Oh, wait. Most of these gamerdudes are too young to remember American Gladiators.
And yeah, obviously there have never been muscular women since American Gladiators, nor can you do a google image search for like "female bodybuilders" or "women's fitness" or something like that. Fucking gamerdudes.
posted by Mister Moofoo at 10:10 PM on July 4, 2020 [1 favorite]
And I've not heard a word against the lesbian interfaith love story.
when i was reluctantly searching reddit for the leaks prior to release, it was literally nothing but incredibly disgusting antisemitic shitspewing all over the various gaming subreddits i lowered myself immeasurably to view.
posted by poffin boffin at 8:54 AM on July 5, 2020 [4 favorites]
when i was reluctantly searching reddit for the leaks prior to release, it was literally nothing but incredibly disgusting antisemitic shitspewing all over the various gaming subreddits i lowered myself immeasurably to view.
posted by poffin boffin at 8:54 AM on July 5, 2020 [4 favorites]
The director is also experiencing the online hate (fake spoilers warning).
(this is one of those times where I am not at all jealous of my peers that catch the public eye)
posted by inpHilltr8r at 12:25 PM on July 5, 2020 [2 favorites]
(this is one of those times where I am not at all jealous of my peers that catch the public eye)
posted by inpHilltr8r at 12:25 PM on July 5, 2020 [2 favorites]
the gamergater rage and hatred for this game--for representing women and trans people as protagonists--is exactly why the pearl-clutching mainstream outlets were wrong when they said the game was too pessimistic about human nature. this game, about how people go out of their way to be evil to each other, has meta-narratived its own damn self. ps: it is a masterpiece and a true work of art
posted by wibari at 2:11 PM on July 5, 2020 [7 favorites]
posted by wibari at 2:11 PM on July 5, 2020 [7 favorites]
Why is it when a hobby or past-time crosses the line into being a "culture," it immediately goes toxic?
posted by elwoodwiles at 3:17 PM on July 5, 2020
posted by elwoodwiles at 3:17 PM on July 5, 2020
There are no cultures that are free from toxicity because there are no people free from toxicity.
But misogynist toxicity surrounding female representation is a problem specifically in subcultures dominated by men. We shouldn't gloss over the fact that men, and not subculture, are the problem there.
Transphobia is a problem in all subcultures I've ever been a part of, unfortunately. The way it's entangled with virulent misogyny here has its own hateful flavor, though.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 1:40 PM on July 6, 2020 [1 favorite]
But misogynist toxicity surrounding female representation is a problem specifically in subcultures dominated by men. We shouldn't gloss over the fact that men, and not subculture, are the problem there.
Transphobia is a problem in all subcultures I've ever been a part of, unfortunately. The way it's entangled with virulent misogyny here has its own hateful flavor, though.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 1:40 PM on July 6, 2020 [1 favorite]
misogynist toxicity surrounding female representation is a problem specifically in subcultures dominated by men
As the father of a 15 year old girl who is occasionally privy to the conversations she conducts with and about other 15 year old girls by virtue of the fact that they are conducted at sufficient volume to be clearly audible through the entire house even from behind a closed bedroom door, and who is frequently appalled by the level of vitriol on display from all participants about a rotating cast of non-participants, I can attest to the fact that a great deal of misogynist toxicity around both female presentation and female representation is present in that subculture also.
posted by flabdablet at 1:54 PM on July 6, 2020 [2 favorites]
As the father of a 15 year old girl who is occasionally privy to the conversations she conducts with and about other 15 year old girls by virtue of the fact that they are conducted at sufficient volume to be clearly audible through the entire house even from behind a closed bedroom door, and who is frequently appalled by the level of vitriol on display from all participants about a rotating cast of non-participants, I can attest to the fact that a great deal of misogynist toxicity around both female presentation and female representation is present in that subculture also.
posted by flabdablet at 1:54 PM on July 6, 2020 [2 favorites]
At least in this game, she's the most jacked person I can recall seeing.
Once you start dealing with the Seraphites, the melee bruisers are both men and women of significant build - six-foot-plus and built like brick shithouses, towering over Abby. And even THEY aren't ludicrously impossible in physiology - just Big Folks Using Big Hammers. Altho I don't recall any of them having significant plot time or lines.
posted by FatherDagon at 11:50 AM on July 7, 2020
Once you start dealing with the Seraphites, the melee bruisers are both men and women of significant build - six-foot-plus and built like brick shithouses, towering over Abby. And even THEY aren't ludicrously impossible in physiology - just Big Folks Using Big Hammers. Altho I don't recall any of them having significant plot time or lines.
posted by FatherDagon at 11:50 AM on July 7, 2020
I am sure that women can be misogynist.
I am also sure (and the research shows) that it is more prevalent and more dangerous among men. This is one reason why it is important not just to rely on men to be better, but to give women more seats at the table.
I dislike "but women do it too" as a response to calling out men's misogyny.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 5:44 PM on July 7, 2020 [5 favorites]
I am also sure (and the research shows) that it is more prevalent and more dangerous among men. This is one reason why it is important not just to rely on men to be better, but to give women more seats at the table.
I dislike "but women do it too" as a response to calling out men's misogyny.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 5:44 PM on July 7, 2020 [5 favorites]
And even THEY aren't ludicrously impossible in physiology - just Big Folks Using Big Hammers.
They did come to mind, but they pretty much all wear full body trenchcoats, and the impression I got was they built like construction workers: stronger than you (and taller) but also just fatter -- the Seraphite community has more or less solved their apocalypse. Joel and Tommy are basically cliche dad bod. Abby stands in contrast as pure muscle and handles these assailants with ease modulo the player's ability to press dodge.
The bozos claiming Abby's physique is impossible are, of course, idiots. The only thing cartoonish in this game is Owen's love life. And maybe that one time I threw a pipe bomb and the only thing left of the enemy was a red paint splotch on the ground. Or the multiple times I shot a dude's arm clean off with a shotgun from ten feet away. Or that the entire plot is basically cribbed from the Guns'n'Roses Greatest Hits album while only one band member saw a dime in return.
posted by pwnguin at 9:06 PM on July 7, 2020
They did come to mind, but they pretty much all wear full body trenchcoats, and the impression I got was they built like construction workers: stronger than you (and taller) but also just fatter -- the Seraphite community has more or less solved their apocalypse. Joel and Tommy are basically cliche dad bod. Abby stands in contrast as pure muscle and handles these assailants with ease modulo the player's ability to press dodge.
The bozos claiming Abby's physique is impossible are, of course, idiots. The only thing cartoonish in this game is Owen's love life. And maybe that one time I threw a pipe bomb and the only thing left of the enemy was a red paint splotch on the ground. Or the multiple times I shot a dude's arm clean off with a shotgun from ten feet away. Or that the entire plot is basically cribbed from the Guns'n'Roses Greatest Hits album while only one band member saw a dime in return.
posted by pwnguin at 9:06 PM on July 7, 2020
I dislike "but women do it too" as a response to calling out men's misogyny.
Misogyny strikes me as something that ought to be called out regardless of who is doing it. So I'll take your dislike on board and give it careful consideration; but what I won't do is give up on trying to help little ms. flabdablet understand why peppering her own speech with "bitch" and "ho" and assorted kinds of body-shaming language is a habit she'd be better off abandoning.
And if you were to put the point that the kinds of things that fifteen year old women yell both at and about each other are heavily influenced by misogynist men in the culture surrounding them and in the media they consume, then naturally I'd completely agree; but I disagree with your assessment that men as opposed to subcultures are "the problem".
There is no imperative for men to hold misogynist beliefs or opinions, nor to express misogyny in speech or deed, unless they are part of a culture in which doing so is considered normal or even laudable. It seems to me that the correct response to understanding that is to challenge misogyny's normativity wherever an opportunity to do so presents itself, rather than focus exclusively on men's misogyny simply because it appears to be more prevalent.
I can't see a lot of daylight between "men, and not subculture, are the problem there" and "well, boys will be boys, what can you do"; and that, for what it's worth, is a position I dislike intensely.
posted by flabdablet at 11:36 AM on July 8, 2020
Misogyny strikes me as something that ought to be called out regardless of who is doing it. So I'll take your dislike on board and give it careful consideration; but what I won't do is give up on trying to help little ms. flabdablet understand why peppering her own speech with "bitch" and "ho" and assorted kinds of body-shaming language is a habit she'd be better off abandoning.
And if you were to put the point that the kinds of things that fifteen year old women yell both at and about each other are heavily influenced by misogynist men in the culture surrounding them and in the media they consume, then naturally I'd completely agree; but I disagree with your assessment that men as opposed to subcultures are "the problem".
There is no imperative for men to hold misogynist beliefs or opinions, nor to express misogyny in speech or deed, unless they are part of a culture in which doing so is considered normal or even laudable. It seems to me that the correct response to understanding that is to challenge misogyny's normativity wherever an opportunity to do so presents itself, rather than focus exclusively on men's misogyny simply because it appears to be more prevalent.
I can't see a lot of daylight between "men, and not subculture, are the problem there" and "well, boys will be boys, what can you do"; and that, for what it's worth, is a position I dislike intensely.
posted by flabdablet at 11:36 AM on July 8, 2020
Misogyny strikes me as something that ought to be called out regardless of who is doing it.
And sure, do that when it happens. But we're not discussing your daughter's conversations with her friends, here. We're talking about a male-dominated subculture that has a problem with virulent misogyny and transphobia.
Male-dominated subcultures tend to have huge misogyny problems. There's a reason I feel more comfortable in female-dominated spaces than male-dominated ones, and it is entirely due to the increased prevalence and virulence of misogyny in men. I'm a gamer, and a nerd, and my experiences are night-and-day different in terms of how I feel as a woman in those spaces. No space is perfect but we could make the male-dominated spaces better by taking care of problems that lead to women being excluded/not interested.
(By the way: My friend circles were never nearly as misogynist as your comparison between your daughter's conversation and the hate speech featured in the post implies. I hope you aren't assuming it is universal or inevitable.)
Misogyny strikes me as something that ought to be called out regardless of who is doing it.
And sure, do that when it happens. What you did instead was to bring up a different incident of misogyny to say "women do it too." Which is sort of the converse of #NotAllMen - yes of course women do it too, just like any member of any marginalized group can also commit acts reinforcing their own oppression. Not the point.
I can't see a lot of daylight between "men, and not subculture, are the problem there" and "well, boys will be boys, what can you do"
If you think "we need more women at the table" excludes "we need to address men's misogyny," that's your problem. We need to do both.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 12:12 PM on July 8, 2020 [4 favorites]
And sure, do that when it happens. But we're not discussing your daughter's conversations with her friends, here. We're talking about a male-dominated subculture that has a problem with virulent misogyny and transphobia.
Male-dominated subcultures tend to have huge misogyny problems. There's a reason I feel more comfortable in female-dominated spaces than male-dominated ones, and it is entirely due to the increased prevalence and virulence of misogyny in men. I'm a gamer, and a nerd, and my experiences are night-and-day different in terms of how I feel as a woman in those spaces. No space is perfect but we could make the male-dominated spaces better by taking care of problems that lead to women being excluded/not interested.
(By the way: My friend circles were never nearly as misogynist as your comparison between your daughter's conversation and the hate speech featured in the post implies. I hope you aren't assuming it is universal or inevitable.)
Misogyny strikes me as something that ought to be called out regardless of who is doing it.
And sure, do that when it happens. What you did instead was to bring up a different incident of misogyny to say "women do it too." Which is sort of the converse of #NotAllMen - yes of course women do it too, just like any member of any marginalized group can also commit acts reinforcing their own oppression. Not the point.
I can't see a lot of daylight between "men, and not subculture, are the problem there" and "well, boys will be boys, what can you do"
If you think "we need more women at the table" excludes "we need to address men's misogyny," that's your problem. We need to do both.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 12:12 PM on July 8, 2020 [4 favorites]
No space is perfect but we could make the male-dominated spaces better by taking care of problems that lead to women being excluded/not interested.
Fully agree. Could and should.
I hope you aren't assuming it is universal or inevitable
No, merely identifying another reservoir of it within the wider culture. Lots of toxicity is perpetuated within school-age subcultures, much of it almost completely independent of outside adult influences; in fact, overt outside adult influence is one of the main things that those subcultures exist in reaction against.
If you think "we need more women at the table" excludes "we need to address men's misogyny," that's your problem.
No, that's not a thing that I think. I read "But misogynist toxicity surrounding female representation is a problem specifically in subcultures dominated by men. We shouldn't gloss over the fact that men, and not subculture, are the problem there" and failed to discern immediately what our subsequent conversation has shown me must be your intended meaning for the phrase "men, and not subculture".
A thing that I do think is that subcultures dominated by men are quite often outgrowths from and continuations of school subcultures, some of which (notably, too many boys' ball-sports teams) are notoriously misogynist. Which is why I pushed back against what I initially took to be the meaning of "men, and not subculture".
I fully agree with you that gaming subculture, among many others, is currently male-dominated to an utterly unhealthy degree, and that leaders and influencers within it need to be doing more work to promote its gender diversity. But it seems to me that this particular brand of ill health is now entrenched enough that's it's only going to change on a generational timescale, and that the most productive place to do that work is inside our schools. Cure the subcultures the boys are embedded in before they become the toxic men.
posted by flabdablet at 1:27 PM on July 8, 2020
Fully agree. Could and should.
I hope you aren't assuming it is universal or inevitable
No, merely identifying another reservoir of it within the wider culture. Lots of toxicity is perpetuated within school-age subcultures, much of it almost completely independent of outside adult influences; in fact, overt outside adult influence is one of the main things that those subcultures exist in reaction against.
If you think "we need more women at the table" excludes "we need to address men's misogyny," that's your problem.
No, that's not a thing that I think. I read "But misogynist toxicity surrounding female representation is a problem specifically in subcultures dominated by men. We shouldn't gloss over the fact that men, and not subculture, are the problem there" and failed to discern immediately what our subsequent conversation has shown me must be your intended meaning for the phrase "men, and not subculture".
A thing that I do think is that subcultures dominated by men are quite often outgrowths from and continuations of school subcultures, some of which (notably, too many boys' ball-sports teams) are notoriously misogynist. Which is why I pushed back against what I initially took to be the meaning of "men, and not subculture".
I fully agree with you that gaming subculture, among many others, is currently male-dominated to an utterly unhealthy degree, and that leaders and influencers within it need to be doing more work to promote its gender diversity. But it seems to me that this particular brand of ill health is now entrenched enough that's it's only going to change on a generational timescale, and that the most productive place to do that work is inside our schools. Cure the subcultures the boys are embedded in before they become the toxic men.
posted by flabdablet at 1:27 PM on July 8, 2020
Here's a thing I'd like to exist, since the 'but girls and women are awful to each other too!' is always going to be there.
Y'know the "POC can be bigots, but not racists, because racism is..." routine? Annoying, but now you have two separate words that add clarity?
Do we / can we have a word for "when a boy is cruel to a girl it's misogyny; when another girl does it, that's _____".
Don't tell me that women don't police each other relentlessly and mercilessly. And they do it about things that men are not even aware of / concerned with, so it can't be that they're exclusively enforcing their own internalized patriarchalist misogyny.
"Your ham-arms are repulsive to me" is misogyny when said by John, and ____ coming from Jane.
Do we have a phrase for that yet? It might help in the future.
posted by bartleby at 2:55 PM on July 10, 2020 [1 favorite]
Y'know the "POC can be bigots, but not racists, because racism is..." routine? Annoying, but now you have two separate words that add clarity?
Do we / can we have a word for "when a boy is cruel to a girl it's misogyny; when another girl does it, that's _____".
Don't tell me that women don't police each other relentlessly and mercilessly. And they do it about things that men are not even aware of / concerned with, so it can't be that they're exclusively enforcing their own internalized patriarchalist misogyny.
"Your ham-arms are repulsive to me" is misogyny when said by John, and ____ coming from Jane.
Do we have a phrase for that yet? It might help in the future.
posted by bartleby at 2:55 PM on July 10, 2020 [1 favorite]
Internalized misogyny, internalized sexism. That's a common framework for describing this kind of thing where the social programming of some form of institutional oppression is taken on and perpetuated by members of an oppressed group.
posted by cortex at 3:04 PM on July 10, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by cortex at 3:04 PM on July 10, 2020 [4 favorites]
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This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
Anyway, I don't play the last of us because I have a phobia* of zombies, but I looked at the character in question and my immediate response is : gorl hot.
*actual phobia here, not using this word lightly
posted by FirstMateKate at 9:51 AM on July 4, 2020 [7 favorites]