Are Lucid Dreams Just Dreams of Being Lucid?
September 9, 2020 6:24 AM Subscribe
Lucid Dreaming or Dreaming That You’re Dreaming? "Why isn’t a lucid dream just a dream within a dream? Suppose I’m having a flying dream and I think, 'I must be dreaming.' I’m in a dream state, so why I am not just dreaming that I’m dreaming? To put the question another way, if there’s a difference between knowing you’re dreaming and dreaming you’re dreaming, then what exactly is it?"
Likewise waking up, young butterfly.
posted by grog at 6:42 AM on September 9, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by grog at 6:42 AM on September 9, 2020 [2 favorites]
Is all that we see or seem
But a dream within a dream?
posted by SansPoint at 7:27 AM on September 9, 2020 [1 favorite]
But a dream within a dream?
posted by SansPoint at 7:27 AM on September 9, 2020 [1 favorite]
Those experiments are so cool. Sending morse code to the outside world during a lucid dream is better than science fiction.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 7:28 AM on September 9, 2020 [9 favorites]
posted by paper chromatographologist at 7:28 AM on September 9, 2020 [9 favorites]
A friend's brother described a period of months where he did a lot of reading on lucid dreaming and actively sought an aspect of control over his sleeping/dreaming sessions.
He said it got too weird. He absolutely started having trouble differentiating between the waking and dreaming moments and just quit the whole business.
posted by elkevelvet at 7:48 AM on September 9, 2020 [3 favorites]
He said it got too weird. He absolutely started having trouble differentiating between the waking and dreaming moments and just quit the whole business.
posted by elkevelvet at 7:48 AM on September 9, 2020 [3 favorites]
My dreams are of two flavors. Often they're dull, gray, and uneventful and, in those, I just seem to just be along for the ride with minimal interaction with whom/whatever I encounter.
Other times, though, they are freaking vivid, colorful, and in constant motion. In those, I converse with others, interact with objects, and readily control the activity. In both scenarios I can read signs, books, etc. with little confusion and I always know I'm dreaming.
posted by Thorzdad at 8:11 AM on September 9, 2020 [1 favorite]
Other times, though, they are freaking vivid, colorful, and in constant motion. In those, I converse with others, interact with objects, and readily control the activity. In both scenarios I can read signs, books, etc. with little confusion and I always know I'm dreaming.
posted by Thorzdad at 8:11 AM on September 9, 2020 [1 favorite]
the only thing that's changed is my attitude...
From your description, your altitude may also be affected...
posted by not_that_epiphanius at 8:11 AM on September 9, 2020
From your description, your altitude may also be affected...
posted by not_that_epiphanius at 8:11 AM on September 9, 2020
Is all that we see or seem
But a dream within a dream?
a link worth investigating if you're keen to hear some transcendent 80s music, powerful and sublime.
posted by philip-random at 8:31 AM on September 9, 2020 [1 favorite]
But a dream within a dream?
a link worth investigating if you're keen to hear some transcendent 80s music, powerful and sublime.
posted by philip-random at 8:31 AM on September 9, 2020 [1 favorite]
He said it got too weird. He absolutely started having trouble differentiating between the waking and dreaming moments and just quit the whole business.
I had the same experience. I was very interested in lucid dreaming and spent a while doing the exercises to amplify the frequency and attempts to control dreams. It was going slightly well and then I started having moments where I doubted if I was awake or not and feeling the need to do dream state checks in real life. For some reason riding the subway seemed to really trigger that sensation. Something about the dim halfway between worlds ambiance of the subway. Those moments of uncertainty gave me the creeps and I stopped trying to lucid dream.
posted by Babblesort at 9:04 AM on September 9, 2020 [6 favorites]
I had the same experience. I was very interested in lucid dreaming and spent a while doing the exercises to amplify the frequency and attempts to control dreams. It was going slightly well and then I started having moments where I doubted if I was awake or not and feeling the need to do dream state checks in real life. For some reason riding the subway seemed to really trigger that sensation. Something about the dim halfway between worlds ambiance of the subway. Those moments of uncertainty gave me the creeps and I stopped trying to lucid dream.
posted by Babblesort at 9:04 AM on September 9, 2020 [6 favorites]
Last night I dreamed I was a butterfly; when I woke up my pillow was a marshmallow.
posted by Greg_Ace at 9:04 AM on September 9, 2020 [5 favorites]
posted by Greg_Ace at 9:04 AM on September 9, 2020 [5 favorites]
For most of this year my dreams have been extra intense and revolving around a couple of notable themes that are obviously inspired by the ambient terribleness of 2020, and I already had a pretty intense and vivid dreamscape going on.
It's fairly common that i have dreams where I've lived out most of some other life in vivid detail and am able to remember things like details of things like where I lived in that dream, or what I ate, or details about a long term partner, or the general map of my environment.
And then wake up super confused. Sometimes I'm glad it was a dream. Sometimes I want to go back because it was good, and it's also not rare I can go back to sleep and pick up where I left off.
Lately it's been stuff like being in some hellish urban dystopian nightmare or diaspora. Stuff like being in some kind of refugee camp and trying to feed hundreds or thousands of people out of a dodgy camp kitchen, or being violently pursued across a hellish urban environment.
I've also had lucid dreams within dreams, and that seems to be ramping up lately. I just had one where I was already dreaming and then clearly and vividly went through all the motions of going to bed and falling asleep and dreaming there, too.
And then in that nested dream realizing I was lucid dreaming and realizing or remembering I could fly, then being torn out of that dream when I realize I'm lucid dreaming, but back in the first level of the dream and waking up where I went to sleep in that dream in some other bed or place, even experiencing the usual sense of confusion about waking up out of a dream and questioning reality and wondering if I'm still dreaming or not for a few seconds.
Which in this case I was, which made waking up fully again even more disorienting.
posted by loquacious at 9:11 AM on September 9, 2020 [1 favorite]
It's fairly common that i have dreams where I've lived out most of some other life in vivid detail and am able to remember things like details of things like where I lived in that dream, or what I ate, or details about a long term partner, or the general map of my environment.
And then wake up super confused. Sometimes I'm glad it was a dream. Sometimes I want to go back because it was good, and it's also not rare I can go back to sleep and pick up where I left off.
Lately it's been stuff like being in some hellish urban dystopian nightmare or diaspora. Stuff like being in some kind of refugee camp and trying to feed hundreds or thousands of people out of a dodgy camp kitchen, or being violently pursued across a hellish urban environment.
I've also had lucid dreams within dreams, and that seems to be ramping up lately. I just had one where I was already dreaming and then clearly and vividly went through all the motions of going to bed and falling asleep and dreaming there, too.
And then in that nested dream realizing I was lucid dreaming and realizing or remembering I could fly, then being torn out of that dream when I realize I'm lucid dreaming, but back in the first level of the dream and waking up where I went to sleep in that dream in some other bed or place, even experiencing the usual sense of confusion about waking up out of a dream and questioning reality and wondering if I'm still dreaming or not for a few seconds.
Which in this case I was, which made waking up fully again even more disorienting.
posted by loquacious at 9:11 AM on September 9, 2020 [1 favorite]
If you live in the Bay Area, you could definitely be unclear about the difference between dream and reality today.
If you're into dreams, I recommend this "dreamoir": Wendy Ortiz' Bruja, a curated recording of dreams that together creates a sort of under-water portrait of the author.
posted by latkes at 9:20 AM on September 9, 2020 [1 favorite]
If you're into dreams, I recommend this "dreamoir": Wendy Ortiz' Bruja, a curated recording of dreams that together creates a sort of under-water portrait of the author.
posted by latkes at 9:20 AM on September 9, 2020 [1 favorite]
A couple posts above indicate that lucid dreaming leads to a person's doubting the reality of habitual waking consciousness, which was in both cases too freaky. However, in some paradigms (say Buddhist), questioning the comforting nature of reality is a feature, not a bug.
One of the many recommended ways of increasing lucidity in the dream state is to often ask oneself (during what is probably normal waking moments) "Is this a dream?"
A funny aspect of the dream state is that when you ask yourself if you're dreaming, even if you are, the answer is often "No, this is too real." That's why flying is such an effective trigger for lucidity for many. Even the dream self knows that humans cannot fly in waking reality.
posted by kozad at 10:25 AM on September 9, 2020 [3 favorites]
One of the many recommended ways of increasing lucidity in the dream state is to often ask oneself (during what is probably normal waking moments) "Is this a dream?"
A funny aspect of the dream state is that when you ask yourself if you're dreaming, even if you are, the answer is often "No, this is too real." That's why flying is such an effective trigger for lucidity for many. Even the dream self knows that humans cannot fly in waking reality.
posted by kozad at 10:25 AM on September 9, 2020 [3 favorites]
I'll have a dream where I'm flying and think, "Wow -- I'm flying just like in my dreams," and still not realize it's a dream.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 10:33 AM on September 9, 2020 [6 favorites]
posted by paper chromatographologist at 10:33 AM on September 9, 2020 [6 favorites]
Someone once told me to try finding a clock in a dream and see what it says. That was a way to start training for lucid dreams. Never worked for me. I rarely have "Dream Control" but when I do it usually means I'm on the cusp of waking up. Anyone else try this?
posted by Chickenring at 11:18 AM on September 9, 2020
posted by Chickenring at 11:18 AM on September 9, 2020
The first comes from phenomenology Right up front, I misread this as phrenology.
posted by Oyéah at 11:40 AM on September 9, 2020
posted by Oyéah at 11:40 AM on September 9, 2020
I practiced lucid dreaming for a long time, or maybe it practiced on me. Then I developed a strange sleep disturbance, in which my Oxygen sats dropped to 70 when I hit REM sleep. No one ever figured out why I was nearly dying at night, but I did have a bad upper tooth. Anyway, I do dream again, and I think I will start up my practice again, but then I forget I decided this when I go to sleep. I have had outrageous experiences tied in to the practice of yoga...yup. Anyway.
posted by Oyéah at 12:00 PM on September 9, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by Oyéah at 12:00 PM on September 9, 2020 [1 favorite]
I've lucid dreamed numerous times throughout my life, though never because I was trying to. Usually it is related to extreme exhaustion. The big indicator for me - and this was well before Waking Life came out - was that lightswitches and other electronics wouldn't work. Once I realized I was dreaming, it was usually not long before the dream dissolved and I woke up. But my mind can be a terrifying place, so I've never been too upset by that.
posted by grumpybear69 at 1:14 PM on September 9, 2020
posted by grumpybear69 at 1:14 PM on September 9, 2020
I love that science has validated lucid dreaming as a distinct state of consciousness.
As a kid, I had a lucid dream nightmare in which I was aware that I wasn't really trapped at the bottom of the basement stairs in a dim netherworld, but that didn't matter if I never woke up! Luckily screaming my head off did the trick.
Later, I was fixated on the idea of being able to read a book in a dream. I had a notion that if I could do that, I would discover the great American novel incubating in my pre-teen little peabrain. I trained myself to lucid dream in order to realize this goal.
My method was to get in the habit of tracing my day back to when I woke up, and remembering in sequence how I got to be where I was. Did it make sense? After practicing this for a couple of weeks, I found myself in an airport with no memory of how I arrived there or why. Bingo! I found a bookstore, chose a book with an intricate Neverending Storyesque cover, and sat on the floor to read my mental masterpiece. I can still remember my disappointment when I saw page after page of word salad, and not even good Tender Buttons-style word salad. It was all like "the who if what could so be too the if."
I left the airport bookstore in disgust and met a beautiful sentient tree in resplendent fall colors. We had a nice chat but I was still upset about my failure as a subconscious literary genius. Don't think I attempted lucid dreaming much after that. Too bad I didn't have any interesting stories in my brain!
posted by prewar lemonade at 1:58 PM on September 9, 2020 [8 favorites]
As a kid, I had a lucid dream nightmare in which I was aware that I wasn't really trapped at the bottom of the basement stairs in a dim netherworld, but that didn't matter if I never woke up! Luckily screaming my head off did the trick.
Later, I was fixated on the idea of being able to read a book in a dream. I had a notion that if I could do that, I would discover the great American novel incubating in my pre-teen little peabrain. I trained myself to lucid dream in order to realize this goal.
My method was to get in the habit of tracing my day back to when I woke up, and remembering in sequence how I got to be where I was. Did it make sense? After practicing this for a couple of weeks, I found myself in an airport with no memory of how I arrived there or why. Bingo! I found a bookstore, chose a book with an intricate Neverending Storyesque cover, and sat on the floor to read my mental masterpiece. I can still remember my disappointment when I saw page after page of word salad, and not even good Tender Buttons-style word salad. It was all like "the who if what could so be too the if."
I left the airport bookstore in disgust and met a beautiful sentient tree in resplendent fall colors. We had a nice chat but I was still upset about my failure as a subconscious literary genius. Don't think I attempted lucid dreaming much after that. Too bad I didn't have any interesting stories in my brain!
posted by prewar lemonade at 1:58 PM on September 9, 2020 [8 favorites]
Thorzdad: what did you read?!
posted by prewar lemonade at 2:03 PM on September 9, 2020
posted by prewar lemonade at 2:03 PM on September 9, 2020
I've been a lucid dreamer since I was eight and had to fight a colored pencil-animated vampire. He had a sword, I decided I needed a sword too, and presto! I had one. Then I decided that the dream was still too scary and woke myself up. I'm lucid in most of my dreams now, though at varying levels - there are times when I have full control and can fly, change shapes, go into another room and get whatever it is I want, that kind of thing. There are other times when I'm aware that the details of the dream are wrong and I keep derailing it wondering why everyone isn't wearing a mask, why I'd ever go back to get my LLM (there's no. way. in. hell.), why two people are dating in my dream when they're not in real life, that kind of thing.
In contrast, I don't know that I've ever dreamed I was lucid dreaming when I was in fact not. Gaining lucidity in a dream has a specific feel to it and I rarely dream that I'm dreaming.
posted by bile and syntax at 3:12 PM on September 9, 2020
In contrast, I don't know that I've ever dreamed I was lucid dreaming when I was in fact not. Gaining lucidity in a dream has a specific feel to it and I rarely dream that I'm dreaming.
posted by bile and syntax at 3:12 PM on September 9, 2020
This is very interesting. I'd never head the term hypnagogic before, but it helps me understand my experience. I heard about lucid dreaming around the age of 9 or 10 from an infomercial for a book and something like an REM detecting light-up headset. So I started trying to stay conscious while falling asleep. This lead to years of sleep paralysis nightmares, which still come back during times of severe stress. I knew these things were kind of related from Psych 101 sleep stage theory, but it's really cool to see it fleshed out more specifically. Thanks!
also, I can't not love an article than starts with a Dennett quote.I vote him for National Grampa every year.
posted by es_de_bah at 3:59 PM on September 9, 2020
also, I can't not love an article than starts with a Dennett quote.I vote him for National Grampa every year.
posted by es_de_bah at 3:59 PM on September 9, 2020
prewar lemonade re: reading in dreams. SO MANY of my dreams turn into stress nightmares when I start trying to read. I once dreamt that my science text book started growing multi-colored, furry pages and throwing off plumes of smoke in class. Another time, I dreamt that I worked at a business that kept people's journals and homework in safe deposit boxes, and I had to take their tickets and retrieve their pages from a series of writing desks. So many pleasant dreams, often verging on lucid, have been ruined by the appearance of a sign, a book, or a clock.
posted by es_de_bah at 4:06 PM on September 9, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by es_de_bah at 4:06 PM on September 9, 2020 [1 favorite]
Greg_Ace: I remember Little Nemo even if no one else does.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 4:14 PM on September 9, 2020
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 4:14 PM on September 9, 2020
I have a very specialized ability to lucid dream when I am dreaming about bathrooms. I wet the bed longer than most people when I was a kid, so I had to learn to recognize dream bathrooms vs non-dream bathrooms.
To this day, using a new or unusual toilet can sometimes be an uncomfortable experience for me: I have to check and double-check my reality to make sure it's really ok to pee in this toilet.
When I was living in the house with the compost toilet squatty potty the toilet reality check went on for months! I wasn't dreaming. We really do live in a world where you can have a permitted 5-gallon bucket compost toilet system in a major US city.
posted by aniola at 4:51 PM on September 9, 2020 [2 favorites]
To this day, using a new or unusual toilet can sometimes be an uncomfortable experience for me: I have to check and double-check my reality to make sure it's really ok to pee in this toilet.
When I was living in the house with the compost toilet squatty potty the toilet reality check went on for months! I wasn't dreaming. We really do live in a world where you can have a permitted 5-gallon bucket compost toilet system in a major US city.
posted by aniola at 4:51 PM on September 9, 2020 [2 favorites]
This shift in your sense of self doesn’t necessarily mean you’re able to control the dream in the sense of actively and deliberately guiding the dream content. Such control comes in degrees and may be more or less present in any given lucid dream.
Huh, I never knew that. Do any of you lucid dreamers ever experience this direct control (bile and syntax?)?
I've had vivid dreams my entire life, occasionally extremely vivid. WHen I can remember them, they either make me smile with joy or shudder with horror in my waking day. I used to daydream (ha!) about controlling the narrative in my dreams, but when I was young I think I assumed lucid dreaming was either a myth or an extremely constrained experience that would require loads of work and practice and patience. This text suggests that it might be, I dunno, easier than I expected to get into some ground floor lucid dreaming?
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 4:28 PM on September 10, 2020
Huh, I never knew that. Do any of you lucid dreamers ever experience this direct control (bile and syntax?)?
I've had vivid dreams my entire life, occasionally extremely vivid. WHen I can remember them, they either make me smile with joy or shudder with horror in my waking day. I used to daydream (ha!) about controlling the narrative in my dreams, but when I was young I think I assumed lucid dreaming was either a myth or an extremely constrained experience that would require loads of work and practice and patience. This text suggests that it might be, I dunno, easier than I expected to get into some ground floor lucid dreaming?
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 4:28 PM on September 10, 2020
Prewar lemonade...Generally, it’s signage, book titles, screens, newspaper headlines, clock faces, etc. Sometimes, I can read the text in books or papers, but not for long. If you’re asking about specific content, I can’t really recall. None of it seems to be crucial to the dream, as far as I can tell. I’ll pay closer attention next time.
posted by Thorzdad at 5:41 PM on September 16, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by Thorzdad at 5:41 PM on September 16, 2020 [1 favorite]
I seem to have semi-lucid dreams, where I'm aware I'm dreaming but don't quite have control.
Also, one time in college, I took a nap in a student lounge and had not one, not two, but three false awakenings. I felt my phone go off in my pocket, got up, got my stuff, and started walking to class. The building I was in is fairly maze-like, so I didn't realize anything was off until I passed a door looking in on a gymnasium.
This building did not, and does not, have a gym.
I came to on the couch with my phone buzzing in my pocket. I got up, got my stuff, and started walking to class. I passed the gym again, and was back on the couch with my phone buzzing. Got up, got my stuff, passed the gym _again_, and came to on the couch again. This time for real.
I took it as a sign that my brain wasn't ready for class, so I skipped it and went back to sleep.
posted by SansPoint at 7:24 PM on September 16, 2020
Also, one time in college, I took a nap in a student lounge and had not one, not two, but three false awakenings. I felt my phone go off in my pocket, got up, got my stuff, and started walking to class. The building I was in is fairly maze-like, so I didn't realize anything was off until I passed a door looking in on a gymnasium.
This building did not, and does not, have a gym.
I came to on the couch with my phone buzzing in my pocket. I got up, got my stuff, and started walking to class. I passed the gym again, and was back on the couch with my phone buzzing. Got up, got my stuff, passed the gym _again_, and came to on the couch again. This time for real.
I took it as a sign that my brain wasn't ready for class, so I skipped it and went back to sleep.
posted by SansPoint at 7:24 PM on September 16, 2020
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posted by Wetterschneider at 6:38 AM on September 9, 2020 [3 favorites]