Forget Everything You Know About Your Dog
October 31, 2020 7:14 PM Subscribe
...By standard intelligence tests, the dogs have failed at the puzzle. I believe, by contrast, that they have succeeded magnificently. They have applied a novel tool to the task. We are that tool... How savvy we are in dogs’ eyes! It’s a clever strategy to turn to us after all. The question of the cognitive abilities of dogs is thereby transformed: dogs are terrific at using humans to solve problems, but not as good at solving problems when we’re not around.Forget Everything You Know About Your Dog
See also Horowitz Dog Cognition Lab
How Do You Play with Your Dog?
Dog Story
Can Dogs Smell Their 'Reflections'?
They have applied a novel tool to the task. We are that tool...
By this logic, the cleverest species on the planet is corn.
posted by pwnguin at 9:01 PM on October 31, 2020 [43 favorites]
By this logic, the cleverest species on the planet is corn.
posted by pwnguin at 9:01 PM on October 31, 2020 [43 favorites]
“A chicken is just an egg’s way of making more eggs”
posted by DoctorFedora at 9:52 PM on October 31, 2020 [8 favorites]
posted by DoctorFedora at 9:52 PM on October 31, 2020 [8 favorites]
By this logic, the cleverest species on the planet is corn.
Dogs, in a pinch, can feed and reproduce without any assistance at all from humans. Corn cannot.
posted by y2karl at 10:58 PM on October 31, 2020
Dogs, in a pinch, can feed and reproduce without any assistance at all from humans. Corn cannot.
posted by y2karl at 10:58 PM on October 31, 2020
A short list of dog games.
Throw it: I will bring it to you, and you throw it, and then I bring it again.
The opposite of throw: I will bring it to you, but neither of us will let it go at all, and we will growl recreationally.
Who is bigger: we wrestle to be on top. This is more fun with other dogs, but I like that you tried.
Surprise, it's me, the dog: who is under the blanket? It's me! It's always nice to see you again.
Where is it? You will take it and hide it in the house and tell me to find it. Sometimes you will also hide! Don't worry, I can find you.
I know exactly where it is: You hid it under your shirt, or you pretended to throw it. Very silly! Now stop that.
Wait for it: I stay and you walk away, then drop it, and then walk more. i will go find it when you say OK. I'm the best.
Tag you're it: we will chase each other, but I usually have to let you win because I have twice as many legs.
Shred: I am happy to help you with breaking down those boxes there.
posted by blnkfrnk at 11:48 PM on October 31, 2020 [115 favorites]
Throw it: I will bring it to you, and you throw it, and then I bring it again.
The opposite of throw: I will bring it to you, but neither of us will let it go at all, and we will growl recreationally.
Who is bigger: we wrestle to be on top. This is more fun with other dogs, but I like that you tried.
Surprise, it's me, the dog: who is under the blanket? It's me! It's always nice to see you again.
Where is it? You will take it and hide it in the house and tell me to find it. Sometimes you will also hide! Don't worry, I can find you.
I know exactly where it is: You hid it under your shirt, or you pretended to throw it. Very silly! Now stop that.
Wait for it: I stay and you walk away, then drop it, and then walk more. i will go find it when you say OK. I'm the best.
Tag you're it: we will chase each other, but I usually have to let you win because I have twice as many legs.
Shred: I am happy to help you with breaking down those boxes there.
posted by blnkfrnk at 11:48 PM on October 31, 2020 [115 favorites]
Originally, I tried using the whole passage from which I quoted:
It is interesting that domestication for both cats and dogs was in part self-domestication, a process of choice made bit by bit by individuals over generations. The ones that succeeded were the ones who liked us most.
posted by y2karl at 11:59 PM on October 31, 2020 [7 favorites]
By standard intelligence tests, the dogs have failed at the puzzle. I believe, by contrast, that they have succeeded magnificently. They have applied a novel tool to the task. We are that tool. Dogs have learned this — and they see us as fine general-purpose tools, too: useful for protection, acquiring food, providing companionship. We solve the puzzles of closed doors and empty water dishes. In the folk psychology of dogs, we humans are brilliant enough to extract hopelessly tangled leashes from around trees; we can magically transport them to higher or lower heights as needed; we can conjure up an endless bounty of foodstuffs and things to chew. How savvy we are in dogs’ eyes! It’s a clever strategy to turn to us after all. The question of the cognitive abilities of dogs is thereby transformed: dogs are terrific at using humans to solve problems, but not as good at solving problems when we’re not around.Still, in either case, the last sentence sums it up.
It is interesting that domestication for both cats and dogs was in part self-domestication, a process of choice made bit by bit by individuals over generations. The ones that succeeded were the ones who liked us most.
posted by y2karl at 11:59 PM on October 31, 2020 [7 favorites]
Also interesting are Belyaev's silver foxes.
...After forty years, three-quarters of the population of foxes were of a class the researchers called “domesticated elite”: not just accepting contact with people, but drawn to it. He had created a domesticated fox. Incredibly, by selecting for one behavioral trait, the genome of the animal was changed in a half century. And with that genetic change came a number of surprisingly familiar physical changes. They have floppy ears and tails that curl up and over their backs. Their heads are wider, and their snouts are shorter. They are improbably cute.posted by y2karl at 12:01 AM on November 1, 2020 [5 favorites]
By this logic, the cleverest species on the planet is corn.
Or orchids (previously).
posted by progosk at 1:08 AM on November 1, 2020 [2 favorites]
Or orchids (previously).
posted by progosk at 1:08 AM on November 1, 2020 [2 favorites]
If you will excuse a couple of things about cats....
Using a human to solve a problem: A previous cat was very upset. I discovered a towel had fallen over his cat food. He wasn't smart enough to move the towel, but he was smart enough to get me.
The current cat likes being hugged. I'm pretty sure about this because I only do it when he initiates contact, he purrs, and he's also apt to nip when he's annoyed. (Or when he just feels like it.) It occurs to me that I squeeze him moderately, but I'm not applying downward pressure. I'm not planning on experimenting with downward pressure.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 1:48 AM on November 1, 2020 [1 favorite]
Using a human to solve a problem: A previous cat was very upset. I discovered a towel had fallen over his cat food. He wasn't smart enough to move the towel, but he was smart enough to get me.
The current cat likes being hugged. I'm pretty sure about this because I only do it when he initiates contact, he purrs, and he's also apt to nip when he's annoyed. (Or when he just feels like it.) It occurs to me that I squeeze him moderately, but I'm not applying downward pressure. I'm not planning on experimenting with downward pressure.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 1:48 AM on November 1, 2020 [1 favorite]
By standard intelligence tests, the dogs cats have failed at the puzzle, because they refuse to be tested. I believe, by contrast, that they have succeeded magnificently. They have applied a novel tool to the task. We are that tool. Dogs Cats have learned this — and they see us as fine general-purpose tools, too: useful for protection, scritches, acquiring food, providing companionship.
We solve the puzzles of closed doors and empty water dishes. In the folk psychology ofdogs cats, we humans are brilliant enough to extract hopelessly entangled seeds from long hair; we can magically transport them to higher or lower heights as needed; we can conjure up an endless bounty of foodstuffs and things to knock off tables. How savvy manipulable monkeys with thumbs we are in dogs cats' eyes! It’s a clever strategy to turn to us infect us with brain parasites after all. The question of the cognitive abilities of dogs cats is thereby transformed: dogs cats are terrific at using humans to solve problems, but not as good at too lazy to do it themselves when we’re not around.
posted by Absolutely No You-Know-What at 1:52 AM on November 1, 2020 [5 favorites]
We solve the puzzles of closed doors and empty water dishes. In the folk psychology of
posted by Absolutely No You-Know-What at 1:52 AM on November 1, 2020 [5 favorites]
dogs are intelligent. they sense how we feel and not our body language
posted by knowing at 1:14 AM on November 1, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by knowing at 1:14 AM on November 1, 2020 [1 favorite]
Belyaev started breeding especially docile foxes and observing the temperament of their pups. Within just three generations they were noticeably less fearful and aggressive toward people. By the fourth generation some pups would even approach their captors, wagging their tails like giddy retrievers. The animals were showing signs of friendliness toward humans. They'd been domesticated.How Humans Domesticated Themselves
Duke anthropologist Brian Hare argues that humans unintentionally experienced a similar process that left us more cooperative than our now extinct human cousins, like Neanderthals and Denisovans.
While Belyaev's foxes underwent artificial evolution through breeding, Hare and others believe that in Homo sapiens natural selection favored friendliness — that without realizing it we were self-domesticated by our own evolution, and that our more agreeable demeanor is responsible for our success and propagation across the planet.
But...
according to Hare, our willingness to harm and exploit members of our own species is rooted in far deeper psychic caverns than simply not liking them. Instead it comes from not seeing them as humans in the first place.posted by y2karl at 1:16 AM on November 1, 2020 [7 favorites]
Our capacity to dehumanize is perhaps the darkest Homo sapiens quality. We instinctually blind ourselves to the humanity of those we fear, or those we can exploit...
Speaking of being trained by a dog...
My late stepdad used to live with me, along with his incredibly intelligent miniature poodle, Susie (aka Honeybear). Every day, I’d spend time in his bedroom, sitting on the edge of his bed chatting, while he watched the tv from his comfy chair.
One day, it occurred to me that I was holding Susie’s rawhide bone for her while she gnawed on it vigorously, lying on the bed next to me. And with a flash, I realized that I hadn’t picked up the bone, but that she had brought it to me and laid it in my hand. And in another flash, I realized that this had happened every day for months without my being entirely aware of it.
Unbeknownst to me, she had trained the ape with opposable thumbs to do something she could not.
posted by darkstar at 1:17 AM on November 1, 2020 [23 favorites]
My late stepdad used to live with me, along with his incredibly intelligent miniature poodle, Susie (aka Honeybear). Every day, I’d spend time in his bedroom, sitting on the edge of his bed chatting, while he watched the tv from his comfy chair.
One day, it occurred to me that I was holding Susie’s rawhide bone for her while she gnawed on it vigorously, lying on the bed next to me. And with a flash, I realized that I hadn’t picked up the bone, but that she had brought it to me and laid it in my hand. And in another flash, I realized that this had happened every day for months without my being entirely aware of it.
Unbeknownst to me, she had trained the ape with opposable thumbs to do something she could not.
posted by darkstar at 1:17 AM on November 1, 2020 [23 favorites]
Off topic, but only recently did I find out that honey badgers use tools.
posted by Orthodox Humanoid at 1:35 AM on November 1, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by Orthodox Humanoid at 1:35 AM on November 1, 2020 [1 favorite]
Once, an out-of-state friend came to visit. I left for work, so I wasn't home when he arrived 15 minutes later and crashed for the night.
When I got home the next morning, my two dogs didn't greet me like usual -- they were anxious, and edged over to the closed door where my friend was sleeping. They seemed to be trying to tell me that there was an unusual human in the house.
Pretty smart.
posted by Chronorin at 2:42 AM on November 1, 2020 [9 favorites]
When I got home the next morning, my two dogs didn't greet me like usual -- they were anxious, and edged over to the closed door where my friend was sleeping. They seemed to be trying to tell me that there was an unusual human in the house.
Pretty smart.
posted by Chronorin at 2:42 AM on November 1, 2020 [9 favorites]
"It would be terrifying to imagine a really large dachshund, wouldn’t it?"
posted by Glomar response at 5:06 AM on November 1, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by Glomar response at 5:06 AM on November 1, 2020 [1 favorite]
One of my dogs is probably smarter than I am. He definitely has a longer attention span. He also looks like he's part wolf. The other one seems a bit stupid, but it's probably more about outsourcing the work to me. That's probably why he always seems much happier than the one that actually expends effort trying to figure things out on his own.
posted by wierdo at 5:09 AM on November 1, 2020
posted by wierdo at 5:09 AM on November 1, 2020
They seemed to be trying to tell me that there was an unusual human in the house.
Some of my friends are unusual humans as well.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 6:45 AM on November 1, 2020 [2 favorites]
Some of my friends are unusual humans as well.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 6:45 AM on November 1, 2020 [2 favorites]
I do think that what happens when barometric pressure changes — and that happens well before the storm is about to come — is that, if the pressure lowers, then smells that are in the ground can kind of come into the air.I don't know that this isn't true. But, it's a very weird thing to say with, at least as presented in the article, no evidence or a candidate mechanism. I'd believe that big molecules travel farther when the pressure is lower. But, a qualitative difference based on a change that's ten percent at most? I'm skeptical. And hearing a scientist say it without at least some qualifying statements raises red flags for me.
I also don't quite know how to square the claim that no breed of dog can be more aggressive than others with the claim that you can radically transform the behavior of foxes in a few generations.
Interesting article. I'm not sure I have confidence in any of it. But, I also haven't ready any of their papers, so there may be a lot more to it than this one conversation reveals.
posted by eotvos at 6:52 AM on November 1, 2020 [4 favorites]
"It would be terrifying to imagine a really large dachshund, wouldn’t it?"
But not a Bassett...
posted by y2karl at 7:50 AM on November 1, 2020 [1 favorite]
But not a Bassett...
posted by y2karl at 7:50 AM on November 1, 2020 [1 favorite]
When I got home the next morning, my two dogs didn't greet me like usual -- they were anxious, and edged over to the closed door where my friend was sleeping.
My chihuahua mixes would've screamed at him all. night. long. :)
We've had a number of dogs live with us since 2011 (our dogs, strays, foster dogs) and they have each truly had their own personality. The first article talks about how we think about dogs that seem to notice when we are sick or sad. I have both migraines and insomnia, so I am sometimes up in the middle of the night. We've had dogs that never noticed I left the bedroom, dogs that came quietly to check on me and then went back to bed, and dogs who always came to check on me and stayed with sit with me until I was ready to go back to bed.
Currently, we have one dog who will always check on me and stay, one dog who then shows up because she never ever wants to be more than 10 ft from me at any time, and the third dog who can't stand to be left out and has to be in the middle of everything. So I end up trying to share the sofa with all three, and wishing some of them would go back and lie on my husband in the bedroom instead.
posted by See you tomorrow, saguaro at 8:20 AM on November 1, 2020 [4 favorites]
My chihuahua mixes would've screamed at him all. night. long. :)
We've had a number of dogs live with us since 2011 (our dogs, strays, foster dogs) and they have each truly had their own personality. The first article talks about how we think about dogs that seem to notice when we are sick or sad. I have both migraines and insomnia, so I am sometimes up in the middle of the night. We've had dogs that never noticed I left the bedroom, dogs that came quietly to check on me and then went back to bed, and dogs who always came to check on me and stayed with sit with me until I was ready to go back to bed.
Currently, we have one dog who will always check on me and stay, one dog who then shows up because she never ever wants to be more than 10 ft from me at any time, and the third dog who can't stand to be left out and has to be in the middle of everything. So I end up trying to share the sofa with all three, and wishing some of them would go back and lie on my husband in the bedroom instead.
posted by See you tomorrow, saguaro at 8:20 AM on November 1, 2020 [4 favorites]
By this logic, the cleverest species on the planet is corn.
As is the plant phylum in general, having invented insects, which generated mosquitos, which created me.
posted by mule98J at 8:32 AM on November 1, 2020 [1 favorite]
As is the plant phylum in general, having invented insects, which generated mosquitos, which created me.
posted by mule98J at 8:32 AM on November 1, 2020 [1 favorite]
I also don't quite know how to square the claim that no breed of dog can be more aggressive than others with the claim that you can radically transform the behavior of foxes in a few generations.
That's not quite what he said. "No, breeds are not naturally aggressive, period... So, I think it’s how we’ve used dogs that’s led to their being tainted as aggressive. And then, they can’t ever get rid of that handle...Because we want it to be as simple as some breeds are aggressive and some breeds are not. But it’s not that simple."
First off, any dog can be put into a situation where they may bite, regardless of breed - if they're attacked, put in pain, looking after puppies etc. It's not really aggression if a dog is defending itself, but that sort of nuance doesn't usually make it into the newspapers. And as he says, we remember incidents of big, scary dogs being aggressive, not so much ones that don't have that tag. My first dog as a child was a rescue bassett, not exactly a "scary" breed. But she was not fond of strange dogs, though more to comical effect. But she didn't spend much time around other dogs to familiarise her either, and who knows what her life was like when young.
He's also saying that dogs subsume so much of their behaviour to us, to their training and the attitude of their owner, that it's not really fair to blame an entire breed of dogs for what we trained individuals dogs to do - pretty much any dog can be trained to be aggressive when young, and the consequences are more serious for bites from big dogs, and that's what gets them their reputation - so more people who want a big, aggressive dog get the media-reported big bad breed and train them so, thus fulfilling the stereotype. You don't often see Bassetts being used as guard dogs, but they can be trained to be pretty damn aggressive for fox hunts. And that has much more of an impact on their behaviour than 'natural' aggression.
Research is also tricky, because it primarily relies on owner surveys, and reports of dog attacks/bites; and people doesn't always report minor bites from smaller dogs, while if you get bitten by a dog with powerful jaws (a pit bull or german shephard, for example) you're more likely to get hurt, especially children. There's one big recent study from 2008, though it's not definitive.
"Breeds with the greatest percentage of dogs exhibiting serious aggression (bites or bite attempts) toward humans included Dachshunds, Chihuahuas and Jack Russell Terriers (toward strangers and owners); Australian Cattle Dogs (toward strangers); and American Cocker Spaniels and Beagles (toward owners).
More than 20% of Akitas, Jack Russell Terriers and Pit Bull Terriers were reported as displaying serious aggression toward unfamiliar dogs. Golden Retrievers, Labradors Retrievers, Bernese Mountain Dogs, Brittany Spaniels, Greyhounds and Whippets were the least aggressive toward both humans and dogs."
So it's not that breeds don't have differerent levels of aggression in comparison - watch out for those dachshunds & chihuahuas! - but that it's a lot more about the situation the dog is put in (i.e. left alone with small children who may hurt it accidentally), the training it's been given, our media-driven biases, its size, and whether the owner/controller was doing their job with an animal that fundamentally relies on us for so much of their thinking.
posted by Absolutely No You-Know-What at 9:48 AM on November 1, 2020 [9 favorites]
That's not quite what he said. "No, breeds are not naturally aggressive, period... So, I think it’s how we’ve used dogs that’s led to their being tainted as aggressive. And then, they can’t ever get rid of that handle...Because we want it to be as simple as some breeds are aggressive and some breeds are not. But it’s not that simple."
First off, any dog can be put into a situation where they may bite, regardless of breed - if they're attacked, put in pain, looking after puppies etc. It's not really aggression if a dog is defending itself, but that sort of nuance doesn't usually make it into the newspapers. And as he says, we remember incidents of big, scary dogs being aggressive, not so much ones that don't have that tag. My first dog as a child was a rescue bassett, not exactly a "scary" breed. But she was not fond of strange dogs, though more to comical effect. But she didn't spend much time around other dogs to familiarise her either, and who knows what her life was like when young.
He's also saying that dogs subsume so much of their behaviour to us, to their training and the attitude of their owner, that it's not really fair to blame an entire breed of dogs for what we trained individuals dogs to do - pretty much any dog can be trained to be aggressive when young, and the consequences are more serious for bites from big dogs, and that's what gets them their reputation - so more people who want a big, aggressive dog get the media-reported big bad breed and train them so, thus fulfilling the stereotype. You don't often see Bassetts being used as guard dogs, but they can be trained to be pretty damn aggressive for fox hunts. And that has much more of an impact on their behaviour than 'natural' aggression.
Research is also tricky, because it primarily relies on owner surveys, and reports of dog attacks/bites; and people doesn't always report minor bites from smaller dogs, while if you get bitten by a dog with powerful jaws (a pit bull or german shephard, for example) you're more likely to get hurt, especially children. There's one big recent study from 2008, though it's not definitive.
"Breeds with the greatest percentage of dogs exhibiting serious aggression (bites or bite attempts) toward humans included Dachshunds, Chihuahuas and Jack Russell Terriers (toward strangers and owners); Australian Cattle Dogs (toward strangers); and American Cocker Spaniels and Beagles (toward owners).
More than 20% of Akitas, Jack Russell Terriers and Pit Bull Terriers were reported as displaying serious aggression toward unfamiliar dogs. Golden Retrievers, Labradors Retrievers, Bernese Mountain Dogs, Brittany Spaniels, Greyhounds and Whippets were the least aggressive toward both humans and dogs."
So it's not that breeds don't have differerent levels of aggression in comparison - watch out for those dachshunds & chihuahuas! - but that it's a lot more about the situation the dog is put in (i.e. left alone with small children who may hurt it accidentally), the training it's been given, our media-driven biases, its size, and whether the owner/controller was doing their job with an animal that fundamentally relies on us for so much of their thinking.
posted by Absolutely No You-Know-What at 9:48 AM on November 1, 2020 [9 favorites]
3 humans, 2 dogs in a living, two humans are watching football, one is watching the dogs. Older male dog is the home dog. Younger dog is visiting but friendly with all, pack dynamic set.
3 toys. Home dog is cool after visiting dog gently takes away ball 1 ( the best) and 2. After four times of this, I pointy wave to third ball and barely utter "that" in a neutral tone. Home dog gets up and retrieves ball 3 which visiting dog gently takes away, home dog retrieves ball 1. Visiting dog gets ball 2 and wags triumph. And home dog has his 1# toy, pauses and smiles.
posted by clavdivs at 6:41 PM on November 1, 2020 [5 favorites]
3 toys. Home dog is cool after visiting dog gently takes away ball 1 ( the best) and 2. After four times of this, I pointy wave to third ball and barely utter "that" in a neutral tone. Home dog gets up and retrieves ball 3 which visiting dog gently takes away, home dog retrieves ball 1. Visiting dog gets ball 2 and wags triumph. And home dog has his 1# toy, pauses and smiles.
posted by clavdivs at 6:41 PM on November 1, 2020 [5 favorites]
More than 20% of Akitas, Jack Russell Terriers and Pit Bull Terriers were reported as displaying serious aggression toward unfamiliar dogs
agreed, esp. Russells. My best friend has one and is almost beserk when strays come by and they, like cattahoolas will try and up there pack status by being quicker at the draw so to speak.
I had a American Bull dog female, male Cattahoola and a mini beagle, latter two rescue dogs and that dynamic was fascinating. The Cattahoola, frustrated by the bulldogs power over speed clipped here once going through a door. The beagle was my guy, he would jump onto the chair with me and nussle, paws forward and just watch knowing if a another dog came near, I was there. Little mister on his Perch, big wide - eyes so excited his beagle Yelp or call or what not got everyone s attention, something about that in beagles is adorable.
posted by clavdivs at 6:55 PM on November 1, 2020
agreed, esp. Russells. My best friend has one and is almost beserk when strays come by and they, like cattahoolas will try and up there pack status by being quicker at the draw so to speak.
I had a American Bull dog female, male Cattahoola and a mini beagle, latter two rescue dogs and that dynamic was fascinating. The Cattahoola, frustrated by the bulldogs power over speed clipped here once going through a door. The beagle was my guy, he would jump onto the chair with me and nussle, paws forward and just watch knowing if a another dog came near, I was there. Little mister on his Perch, big wide - eyes so excited his beagle Yelp or call or what not got everyone s attention, something about that in beagles is adorable.
posted by clavdivs at 6:55 PM on November 1, 2020
I just want to come in here to share this: forget about how cute it is when your dog is asleep and their paws start twitching; my pup wags her tail in her sleep and it is the most adorable thing.
posted by nubs at 12:23 PM on November 2, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by nubs at 12:23 PM on November 2, 2020 [3 favorites]
« Older Honey, they shrunk the parade | Warrior Cop My...[CW: Warrior Cops, Nazis] Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
posted by nubs at 8:47 PM on October 31, 2020 [5 favorites]