Jewish representation in medieval costuming -with less historical trauma
December 20, 2020 6:18 AM Subscribe
What did medieval Jews wear? 13th and 14th Century Hair and Veil tutorial [SLYT] Snappy Dragon discusses Jewish identity, whiteness, erasure of diversity, representation, distinguishing between internal vs external markers of identity even when externally mandated by gentile governments, and the traditional draping of 13th and 14th century Ashkenazi Jewish women's hair coverings. Bonus information about red hair and ancient seafood dye.
I realise that she's probably more interested in making a quick costume, but I was disappointed by the lack of embroidery. I would imagine that the stripes would have been added not with dyes painted on, but with blue embroidery or applied fabric.
posted by jb at 8:39 AM on December 20, 2020
posted by jb at 8:39 AM on December 20, 2020
Alternatively, many (possibly most) medieval veils were rectangular, which would allow the bands to be woven in to the fabric on the loom. A rectangular veil also avoids wasting fabric, which was quite expensive. But achieving that today would require a very lucky fabric find or a custom weaving job.
posted by jedicus at 8:54 AM on December 20, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by jedicus at 8:54 AM on December 20, 2020 [4 favorites]
jb, I think she specifies in the video that the stripes would have been dyed, not embroidered. That would be a good follow up topic for her to cover, though.
posted by Kitchen Witch at 10:04 AM on December 20, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by Kitchen Witch at 10:04 AM on December 20, 2020 [1 favorite]
The dyeing is - per the video - connected to the custom of techalet on tzitzit, a Jewish custom that might diverge from the mainstream. Making it oval instead of rectangular - I can imagine that it might be specifically to avoid creating a four cornered garment that might be confused with a tallit.
It’s interesting to make the assumption that she has taken shortcuts in her research or work, instead of giving her the benefit of the doubt. Especially when there are at at least plausible intuitive reasons for those familiar with some basics of Jewish customs.
Actually interesting isn’t really the word I’m looking for. If you have some specific expertise to counter her work, I’d love to hear it and I’m sure it would make a fascinating addition to the thread.
Otherwise, the assumption that to the extent her work her diverges from your knowledge of (gentile?) medieval fashion practices, it is her error rather than your own limitations seems like a pretty ironic confluence of sexism and erasure of minority practices.
posted by Salamandrous at 10:33 AM on December 20, 2020 [9 favorites]
It’s interesting to make the assumption that she has taken shortcuts in her research or work, instead of giving her the benefit of the doubt. Especially when there are at at least plausible intuitive reasons for those familiar with some basics of Jewish customs.
Actually interesting isn’t really the word I’m looking for. If you have some specific expertise to counter her work, I’d love to hear it and I’m sure it would make a fascinating addition to the thread.
Otherwise, the assumption that to the extent her work her diverges from your knowledge of (gentile?) medieval fashion practices, it is her error rather than your own limitations seems like a pretty ironic confluence of sexism and erasure of minority practices.
posted by Salamandrous at 10:33 AM on December 20, 2020 [9 favorites]
The dyeing is - per the video - connected to the custom of techalet on tzitzit, a Jewish custom that might diverge from the mainstream. Making it oval instead of rectangular - I can imagine that it might be specifically to avoid creating a four cornered garment that might be confused with a tallit.
At no time in Jewish history would clothes have been dyed with techeilet, which was always enormously expensive. It was much more expensive than purple, at a time when purple wool was as expensive, weight for weight, as gold.
The stripes on talleisim/tallitiyot are more commonly black than blue, in my experience, but good black dyes are a relatively recent thing. I suspect (I've read up on this but am not a historian) that the stripes simply reflect the edge patterns of loom-woven fabric from the days when talleisim/tallitiyot were people's daily garment. You can see similar patterns on, e.g., the edges of Roman garments depicted in mosaics. However, they're not specified by Jewish law and there's fashion in these things like everything else.
I can't comment on whether the oval shape is authentic, but it wouldn't have been driven by the requirements of Jewish law: the veil depicted is too small to be "a four-cornered garment" requiring tzitzit, and the established halacha (Jewish law) by that time was that women were not required to wear tzitzit on four-cornered garments, anyway. Some did, but it wasn't common; was remarked upon; and discouraged. Did it shape women's fashion anyway? Perhaps, but I'd want to see original sources.
posted by Joe in Australia at 11:18 AM on December 20, 2020 [6 favorites]
At no time in Jewish history would clothes have been dyed with techeilet, which was always enormously expensive. It was much more expensive than purple, at a time when purple wool was as expensive, weight for weight, as gold.
The stripes on talleisim/tallitiyot are more commonly black than blue, in my experience, but good black dyes are a relatively recent thing. I suspect (I've read up on this but am not a historian) that the stripes simply reflect the edge patterns of loom-woven fabric from the days when talleisim/tallitiyot were people's daily garment. You can see similar patterns on, e.g., the edges of Roman garments depicted in mosaics. However, they're not specified by Jewish law and there's fashion in these things like everything else.
I can't comment on whether the oval shape is authentic, but it wouldn't have been driven by the requirements of Jewish law: the veil depicted is too small to be "a four-cornered garment" requiring tzitzit, and the established halacha (Jewish law) by that time was that women were not required to wear tzitzit on four-cornered garments, anyway. Some did, but it wasn't common; was remarked upon; and discouraged. Did it shape women's fashion anyway? Perhaps, but I'd want to see original sources.
posted by Joe in Australia at 11:18 AM on December 20, 2020 [6 favorites]
I have several years of experience with medieval costuming, most of which is based on primary sources (surviving garments, clothing inventories, and probate documents). I also consulted friends who have decades of experience in that area and period. There aren’t a lot of surviving veils, but those that do survive are not round. The available evidence suggests most veils were rectangular, though based on portraiture some were probably oval or circular. The circular interpretation is plausible but not definitive.
Snappy Dragon references Rosalie Gilbert, who mentions the blue bordered veil only in passing and without citation.
Painted fabric was not unheard of, but it was usually done to produce large or complex patterns (eg by blockprinting). Rich blue pigments (eg ultramarine) were very expensive. By contrast, blue dyes (eg woad and indigo) were readily available, and putting a two stripe border on a rectangular veil is not complicated for even a novice weaver.
The video provides a great and needed broad historical context, and her reconstruction achieves the desired visual impression. It is, however a speculative reconstruction based on the limited evidence available. That evidence is no doubt limited in significant part because of antisemitism, but it’s nonetheless limited. I am not suggesting that her reconstruction is wrong; indeed it’s (sadly) probably impossible to know. I am suggesting that other plausible reconstructions are possible, albeit not nearly as practical to create today unless one gets very lucky in a fabric shop or is or knows a weaver.
posted by jedicus at 11:19 AM on December 20, 2020 [5 favorites]
Snappy Dragon references Rosalie Gilbert, who mentions the blue bordered veil only in passing and without citation.
Painted fabric was not unheard of, but it was usually done to produce large or complex patterns (eg by blockprinting). Rich blue pigments (eg ultramarine) were very expensive. By contrast, blue dyes (eg woad and indigo) were readily available, and putting a two stripe border on a rectangular veil is not complicated for even a novice weaver.
The video provides a great and needed broad historical context, and her reconstruction achieves the desired visual impression. It is, however a speculative reconstruction based on the limited evidence available. That evidence is no doubt limited in significant part because of antisemitism, but it’s nonetheless limited. I am not suggesting that her reconstruction is wrong; indeed it’s (sadly) probably impossible to know. I am suggesting that other plausible reconstructions are possible, albeit not nearly as practical to create today unless one gets very lucky in a fabric shop or is or knows a weaver.
posted by jedicus at 11:19 AM on December 20, 2020 [5 favorites]
I am fascinated by all things medieval and this is something new for me to learn about. Thanks for posting!
posted by sundrop at 11:20 AM on December 20, 2020
posted by sundrop at 11:20 AM on December 20, 2020
Metafilter - come for the arcana, stick around for the educated debate on stuff you've never heard of.
posted by Chuffy at 11:42 AM on December 20, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by Chuffy at 11:42 AM on December 20, 2020 [4 favorites]
The available evidence suggests most veils were rectangular, though based on portraiture some were probably oval or circular.
Would it be practical to give a rectangular veil a curved circumference by pinning or basting the edges, and still have it drape correctly?
posted by Joe in Australia at 12:56 PM on December 20, 2020
Would it be practical to give a rectangular veil a curved circumference by pinning or basting the edges, and still have it drape correctly?
posted by Joe in Australia at 12:56 PM on December 20, 2020
Thank you for stopping away from the “she’s doing it wrong in a way I obviously know better even though just encountering this now” angle and towards a “this is an informed but not conclusive - not claimed to be conclusive - engagement with historical reconstruction” angle.
My own two cents worth are that
- as a woman who has seen how many Jewish men nowadays react to women taking on anything that vaguely resembles what is considered to be a man’s prerogative in Judaism, and in view of the whole ‘fences around fences thinga’ it seems totally plausible to me that this women’s garment would be purposely not rectangular. Many many things that Jews do are not technically driven by Jewish law are nonetheless deeply connected with it, and especially when it comes to women’s lives, religious authorities have not usually taken a small-c conservative approach to making rules.
-it also seems very plausible to me that women at different levels of wealth would use different materials to achieve this end, and that dyed could be historically accurate without being historically universal or even widespread
Beyond that, I was surprised by how beautiful I found the veil, and how touched I was by it.
In general, Jewish women have been less visually marked than Jewish men (talking about communal norms here, but external mandates). Just think about how many people, when asked to picture “a Jew” will picture a man. I know many women who struggle with this, especially those who consider wearing a kippah. This is such a beautiful and striking response to a desire/need to be visible as Jewish women.
posted by Salamandrous at 1:44 PM on December 20, 2020 [3 favorites]
My own two cents worth are that
- as a woman who has seen how many Jewish men nowadays react to women taking on anything that vaguely resembles what is considered to be a man’s prerogative in Judaism, and in view of the whole ‘fences around fences thinga’ it seems totally plausible to me that this women’s garment would be purposely not rectangular. Many many things that Jews do are not technically driven by Jewish law are nonetheless deeply connected with it, and especially when it comes to women’s lives, religious authorities have not usually taken a small-c conservative approach to making rules.
-it also seems very plausible to me that women at different levels of wealth would use different materials to achieve this end, and that dyed could be historically accurate without being historically universal or even widespread
Beyond that, I was surprised by how beautiful I found the veil, and how touched I was by it.
In general, Jewish women have been less visually marked than Jewish men (talking about communal norms here, but external mandates). Just think about how many people, when asked to picture “a Jew” will picture a man. I know many women who struggle with this, especially those who consider wearing a kippah. This is such a beautiful and striking response to a desire/need to be visible as Jewish women.
posted by Salamandrous at 1:44 PM on December 20, 2020 [3 favorites]
Thanks for this! I do enjoy the "how people from X time period dressed" stuff now and then.
She makes a very good point about the visibility of diverse groups in history, and how re-enactment societies should allow for the inclusion of marginalized groups. My only question, though, is how many casual observers would get that "oh, she's wearing a blue and white striped veil, I guess that means she's a Jewish woman" as opposed to just thinking "oh, that blue and white striped veil is pretty". Which is totally fine too, and probably good! I just suspect that for many casual observers, they wouldn't know about the blue-and-white-veil connection, and I bet this is the perfect opportunity for the Ren Faire/re-enactment society she attends to collaborate with her on a special presentation.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 2:20 PM on December 20, 2020 [1 favorite]
She makes a very good point about the visibility of diverse groups in history, and how re-enactment societies should allow for the inclusion of marginalized groups. My only question, though, is how many casual observers would get that "oh, she's wearing a blue and white striped veil, I guess that means she's a Jewish woman" as opposed to just thinking "oh, that blue and white striped veil is pretty". Which is totally fine too, and probably good! I just suspect that for many casual observers, they wouldn't know about the blue-and-white-veil connection, and I bet this is the perfect opportunity for the Ren Faire/re-enactment society she attends to collaborate with her on a special presentation.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 2:20 PM on December 20, 2020 [1 favorite]
By contrast, blue dyes (eg woad and indigo) were readily available, and putting a two stripe border on a rectangular veil is not complicated for even a novice weaver.
Thanks for the clarification! I'm not a costume/clothing historian, but I am a pre-modern historian, and was having trouble picturing people applying pigments to cloth like that. I'm more used to reading about the dying of yarn and/or fabric in big pots, etc.
Were there any traditions in Europe at the time of people using a method like that of making batik, where wax was used to selectively dye fabric?
as a woman who has seen how many Jewish men nowadays react to women taking on anything that vaguely resembles what is considered to be a man’s prerogative in Judaism, and in view of the whole ‘fences around fences thinga’ it seems totally plausible to me that this women’s garment would be purposely not rectangular.
I attended a Shavuot session by a rabbi a few years ago about the history of women and tzitzit - and the Orthodox discouragement of women wearing tzitzit (or the tallitot / prayershawls they were attached to) comes relatively late. I'm trying to remember back to the source texts - it was only a minor opinion at the time of the debates of the Gemara (like, one rabbi versus everyone ese), but was more widespread by about 1500 - I don't know what the practice was in between. But at least as of the time of the Gemara (c350-500), there are accounts of rabbis insisting that the women in their house wear tzitzit - on the corners of their aprons, if I remember right.
posted by jb at 6:12 PM on December 20, 2020 [1 favorite]
Thanks for the clarification! I'm not a costume/clothing historian, but I am a pre-modern historian, and was having trouble picturing people applying pigments to cloth like that. I'm more used to reading about the dying of yarn and/or fabric in big pots, etc.
Were there any traditions in Europe at the time of people using a method like that of making batik, where wax was used to selectively dye fabric?
as a woman who has seen how many Jewish men nowadays react to women taking on anything that vaguely resembles what is considered to be a man’s prerogative in Judaism, and in view of the whole ‘fences around fences thinga’ it seems totally plausible to me that this women’s garment would be purposely not rectangular.
I attended a Shavuot session by a rabbi a few years ago about the history of women and tzitzit - and the Orthodox discouragement of women wearing tzitzit (or the tallitot / prayershawls they were attached to) comes relatively late. I'm trying to remember back to the source texts - it was only a minor opinion at the time of the debates of the Gemara (like, one rabbi versus everyone ese), but was more widespread by about 1500 - I don't know what the practice was in between. But at least as of the time of the Gemara (c350-500), there are accounts of rabbis insisting that the women in their house wear tzitzit - on the corners of their aprons, if I remember right.
posted by jb at 6:12 PM on December 20, 2020 [1 favorite]
The question as I understand it is: would a veil have been made with rounded corners because people were concerned about the law requiring tzitzit on a four-cornered garment. The very first question is, would a veil have needed tzitzit at all, even if it was of sufficient size, had four corners, and was worn by a man. And I'm pretty sure the answer is "no".
The Shulchan Aruch (a basic Jewish legal text published in Venice, 1565), Orach Chayyim 10:10-12 runs through a lot of garments of the day, the only one of which I think I recognise by name is a mantua. And it says none of them require tzitzit, because either they're primarily head gear, or “their corners are not made to be arranged two in front of the wearer, and two behind, each opposite the other.” I think the same clearly applies to veils: nobody would have expected them to have tzitzit under any circumstances, therefore nobody would make them rounded to avoid needing tzitzit.
posted by Joe in Australia at 9:35 PM on December 20, 2020 [2 favorites]
The Shulchan Aruch (a basic Jewish legal text published in Venice, 1565), Orach Chayyim 10:10-12 runs through a lot of garments of the day, the only one of which I think I recognise by name is a mantua. And it says none of them require tzitzit, because either they're primarily head gear, or “their corners are not made to be arranged two in front of the wearer, and two behind, each opposite the other.” I think the same clearly applies to veils: nobody would have expected them to have tzitzit under any circumstances, therefore nobody would make them rounded to avoid needing tzitzit.
posted by Joe in Australia at 9:35 PM on December 20, 2020 [2 favorites]
I think the fact that the Shulchan Aruch feels the need to respond to the question and clarify the law... does not necessarily indicate that it was an obviously settled question.
But actually I think the question is whether
a) it is plausibly historically accurate that the fabric would be oval instead of rectangular - for any reason
b) if so, might there be the reason for divergence from mainstream custom be related to Jewish practices relating to tzitzit
And really I'm not as sure as you that the answer is obviously no... For example, there's no prohibition on women wearing a kippah shaped object either on top of a wig or for an unmarried women on her head, but it's vehemently 'not done' in most (any?) traditional communities because it's something that's associated with men. In traditional communities that are not so observant, where they provide head coverings for women, they do go way out of their way to make them davka NOT like kippot - and instead use those lace doily things to extra differentiate. Looking back from the future at those lace doily things we'll probably be hard-pressed to explain them according to 'the law' and which are definitely not in the Shulchan Aruch, but still are a very real part of women's Jewish 'fashion' in practice and are very much *related* to religious law and practices.
posted by Salamandrous at 4:16 PM on December 21, 2020
But actually I think the question is whether
a) it is plausibly historically accurate that the fabric would be oval instead of rectangular - for any reason
b) if so, might there be the reason for divergence from mainstream custom be related to Jewish practices relating to tzitzit
And really I'm not as sure as you that the answer is obviously no... For example, there's no prohibition on women wearing a kippah shaped object either on top of a wig or for an unmarried women on her head, but it's vehemently 'not done' in most (any?) traditional communities because it's something that's associated with men. In traditional communities that are not so observant, where they provide head coverings for women, they do go way out of their way to make them davka NOT like kippot - and instead use those lace doily things to extra differentiate. Looking back from the future at those lace doily things we'll probably be hard-pressed to explain them according to 'the law' and which are definitely not in the Shulchan Aruch, but still are a very real part of women's Jewish 'fashion' in practice and are very much *related* to religious law and practices.
posted by Salamandrous at 4:16 PM on December 21, 2020
What I recall from the talk on women and tzitzit, in the Talmud the debates were all about whether women were required to wear tzitzit, not whether they were (optionally) allowed to wear them. The majority opinion in the Talmud was that they were required (with stories of rabbis tying tzitzit onto the aprons of their maidservants), but there was a dissent noted - and by the end of the middle ages, the dissenting rabbi was being taken as the authority (that women were not required to wear them).
How "not required" turns into "not allowed" - I don't understand the details, but one of the texts in that session was from a modern Orthodox rabbi (a pretty conservative one) who said it was okay for women to do things that only men were required to do, but not if they were doing it to be prideful or feminist - and there's no reason that a woman would want to wear tzitzit except to be prideful, so they shouldn't.
Sorry - I know this is vague on the details, but basically the movement in the texts we looked at went from debating were woman required to do this mitzvot (and transitioned from yes to no) and then from "no, not required" to "no, shouldn't do" (because it was probably a feminist thing about breaking down gender roles).
I am curious about the issue of circular cloth. Is there anyway to weave cloth in a circle? I know knitting comes to Europe relatively late in the middle ages and was generally kept to smaller garments like stockings and gloves, but is there another way that someone could have made circular fabric? I recently saw this sculpture of the Three Kings with what seems to be a circular blanket, and I'm wondering how something like that might have been made (or maybe it was just artistic license).
posted by jb at 8:24 AM on December 22, 2020
How "not required" turns into "not allowed" - I don't understand the details, but one of the texts in that session was from a modern Orthodox rabbi (a pretty conservative one) who said it was okay for women to do things that only men were required to do, but not if they were doing it to be prideful or feminist - and there's no reason that a woman would want to wear tzitzit except to be prideful, so they shouldn't.
Sorry - I know this is vague on the details, but basically the movement in the texts we looked at went from debating were woman required to do this mitzvot (and transitioned from yes to no) and then from "no, not required" to "no, shouldn't do" (because it was probably a feminist thing about breaking down gender roles).
I am curious about the issue of circular cloth. Is there anyway to weave cloth in a circle? I know knitting comes to Europe relatively late in the middle ages and was generally kept to smaller garments like stockings and gloves, but is there another way that someone could have made circular fabric? I recently saw this sculpture of the Three Kings with what seems to be a circular blanket, and I'm wondering how something like that might have been made (or maybe it was just artistic license).
posted by jb at 8:24 AM on December 22, 2020
It is possible to weave a circle, but it’s not practical especially on a large scale (eg more than a foot across or so) or to produce the fine, even weave that is important for a veil. From prehistory through the early modern era, all the European, Middle Eastern, and Egyptian looms that I’m aware of make rectangular cloth. It’s not terribly complicated to cut a circle or oval out of cloth and then finish the edge, it’s just a bit wasteful of an expensive commodity. This is, in my opinion, one of the reasons why most veils appear to have been rectangular.
posted by jedicus at 10:58 AM on December 22, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by jedicus at 10:58 AM on December 22, 2020 [1 favorite]
« Older Good News, Everyone! (Really) | New, more infectious, strain of Covid-19... Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
posted by Mchelly at 7:50 AM on December 20, 2020 [2 favorites]