What went wrong at Gimlet
March 14, 2021 12:21 PM Subscribe
What went wrong at Gimlet? Vulture explains that it wasn't just about The Test Kitchen miniseries, and the complaints of racism and power imbalance in the Spotify-acquired podcast company went beyond PJ Vogt and Sruthi Pinnamaneni. In a separate recent article, the NYTimes also substantiates that the problems went much deeper. (Previously on Metafilter: Reply All is having its own reckoning now.)
These articles do a good job of explaining the source and development of the organizational racism at Gimlet. What I’m less clear on after reading is if there is positive recent development towards any change. The articles mention some improvement - significant BIPOC constituencies in staff, a unionizing workforce - which, combined with the departure of some bad actors might represent change. But Alex Blumberg doesn’t appear to be going anywhere and I’m not sure who, if anyone, is stepping in to fill the voids in management.
I listened to a few Gimlet podcasts and want to know if I should continue my support of their creative work because they are on a road to change, or if I should go elsewhere for my audio entertainment. If anyone has more backup for either argument I’d love to hear it.
posted by q*ben at 12:50 PM on March 14, 2021
I listened to a few Gimlet podcasts and want to know if I should continue my support of their creative work because they are on a road to change, or if I should go elsewhere for my audio entertainment. If anyone has more backup for either argument I’d love to hear it.
posted by q*ben at 12:50 PM on March 14, 2021
. . .but another former staffer and a source still at the company described the meeting as being more about Pinnamaneni trying to build a space where workers could feel free to express their concerns about the unionizing process without the organizing committee present.I love Pinnamaneni's work more than most. But, come on! I can't actually tell whether this is intended as humor by the writer. I'll assume so. But, it's mighty subtle.
posted by eotvos at 1:13 PM on March 14, 2021
I will read this eagerly! Also, a related article by Sarah Jaffe in The American Prospect from March 11: “Union Bargaining at a Podcasting Giant”
“We are pushing as hard as we possibly can to try and get a deal,” said Meg Driscoll, a producer at Gimlet and member of the bargaining team. The derivative works question, she said, is the biggest issue that they remain stuck on. “It’s the idea that people might get to… not own their work, but have a say in when something is made from their work or get some of the earnings from that.”posted by Going To Maine at 1:16 PM on March 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
each made more than $20 million
I know it's trite to blame capitalism, but the prospect of a $20m payday would make most people into worse versions of themselves. Precarious contract work for most, 8 figure payouts for others. For podcasts.
Imagine what good could be done if they actually hired people and paid them a living wage rather than instituting a de facto caste system.
posted by BungaDunga at 1:18 PM on March 14, 2021 [26 favorites]
I know it's trite to blame capitalism, but the prospect of a $20m payday would make most people into worse versions of themselves. Precarious contract work for most, 8 figure payouts for others. For podcasts.
Imagine what good could be done if they actually hired people and paid them a living wage rather than instituting a de facto caste system.
posted by BungaDunga at 1:18 PM on March 14, 2021 [26 favorites]
Just two days ago, Gimlet Union announced: "3AM WE HAVE A DEAL!!!"
posted by msbrauer at 1:19 PM on March 14, 2021 [9 favorites]
posted by msbrauer at 1:19 PM on March 14, 2021 [9 favorites]
(or, even if you don't have money because you're a startup, give them all equity, not just your friends and early hires! yes, this is a fantasy, but still- if you're going to burn contractors out, maybe they deserve a little bit of the buyout if it's successful, just saying)
posted by BungaDunga at 1:25 PM on March 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by BungaDunga at 1:25 PM on March 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
Another important piece, written by CC Paschal about her experiences as a producer for Gimlet, called Hidden in Plain Sight.
Pull quote - I’ve been working on this piece for months--first in sticky notes through trauma healing sessions, crying in the bathtub, long walks and fits and bursts of clarity throughout a full-time recovery sabbatical. Like many narratives born of trauma, it emerged in fragments which I had to learn how to safely handle. She relates traumatic experiences, and in a toxic working environment.
posted by seawallrunner at 1:51 PM on March 14, 2021 [15 favorites]
Pull quote - I’ve been working on this piece for months--first in sticky notes through trauma healing sessions, crying in the bathtub, long walks and fits and bursts of clarity throughout a full-time recovery sabbatical. Like many narratives born of trauma, it emerged in fragments which I had to learn how to safely handle. She relates traumatic experiences, and in a toxic working environment.
posted by seawallrunner at 1:51 PM on March 14, 2021 [15 favorites]
“There was a lot of crying at Gimlet in general.”
This sounds like a horrorshow of a workplace.
posted by tommasz at 2:21 PM on March 14, 2021 [4 favorites]
This sounds like a horrorshow of a workplace.
posted by tommasz at 2:21 PM on March 14, 2021 [4 favorites]
I've been paring down my podcast feeds, since work from home has meant less time for podcast listening (no commute), and with Reply All on hiatus the only Gimlet show still showing up is Every Little Thing. The past few eps from ELT have been reruns, so I've actually been skipping it as well. Maybe it's time to drop Gimlet entirely.
posted by jazon at 3:01 PM on March 14, 2021
posted by jazon at 3:01 PM on March 14, 2021
The writing should have been on the wall for Gimlet when they cancelled Mystery Show.
posted by SansPoint at 3:04 PM on March 14, 2021 [30 favorites]
posted by SansPoint at 3:04 PM on March 14, 2021 [30 favorites]
Still wondering whether the Heavyweight team (the only Gimlet show I had feels for, after Mystery Show) will find the wherewithal to, erm, weigh in on all of the above...
posted by progosk at 3:29 PM on March 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by progosk at 3:29 PM on March 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
The first season of Startup was about Gimlet and largely self-promotion. It didn't really get on my radar much. The second season of Startup was about a startup that was still starting up and might succeed or fail, no one knew which, while doing most of the things startups were supposed to do to succeed. It was excellent. The third season of Startup was about startups that had already succeeded doing most of the same stuff as the one in season 2. It was useless. I found most of the other shows to be slick empty calories and wandered on to better grounds, such as In The Dark.
posted by krisjohn at 3:36 PM on March 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by krisjohn at 3:36 PM on March 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
“Being ‘cancel-adjacent’ is exhausting,” Ms. Teclemariam said. It’s especially enervating, she said, when you’re adjacent to people being canceled for their coverage of other people who have been canceled. “There is a word for this, but I’m not sure what it is. ‘Irony’ is insufficient.”
Something very weird about this.
posted by homerica at 3:58 PM on March 14, 2021 [5 favorites]
Something very weird about this.
posted by homerica at 3:58 PM on March 14, 2021 [5 favorites]
The first season of Startup was about Gimlet and largely self-promotion.
I don't think that's strictly true? That first season is pretty much entirely about Alex Blumberg; it's a fish-out-of-water story, the naive public-radio guy trying to make his way into business. ISTR that it was surprising to them that Startup got so popular so fast, becoming pretty much an "and here's what we do" calling-card for Gimlet. Although there's a lot of writing-your-own-mythology going on there so who really knows?
As a listener though, this bit from the Vulture piece rings very true:
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 4:04 PM on March 14, 2021
I don't think that's strictly true? That first season is pretty much entirely about Alex Blumberg; it's a fish-out-of-water story, the naive public-radio guy trying to make his way into business. ISTR that it was surprising to them that Startup got so popular so fast, becoming pretty much an "and here's what we do" calling-card for Gimlet. Although there's a lot of writing-your-own-mythology going on there so who really knows?
As a listener though, this bit from the Vulture piece rings very true:
Viewed through the lens of the past few weeks, the dissonance of that show is striking: StartUp painted a consistently breezy picture of the office, one that was unnaturally transparent and empathetic. Listening back to the 2015 episode, on the company’s state of diversity, is particularly dissonant with this current discourse; it conceded that, indeed, Gimlet was extremely white, but that diversity also meant a bunch of things beyond race, and that they were working on it.and yes, the diversity episode, ooooooof.
“For a long time, they were able to utilize this bumbling white-guy persona that’s rampant in radio,” said Brittany Luse. “It’s the persona who answered the door when people showed up asking why there were failures.”
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 4:04 PM on March 14, 2021
Alex: It’s true, we each own a Tesla. And it is really embarrassing to admit, especially I think in my case, because I have a sort of fancy one.
Ayana: A definitely fancy one.
Alex: A definitely fancy one. Podcasting turned out to be an unexpectedly lucrative career for me late in life, after a career in public radio. And so I was actually able to afford a nice car. But there's this trade-off with the car that I have, which is that I wanted the kind of Tesla that can sit at least six people in order to cart kids and family around, but the only kind of Tesla that was big enough for that, had these falcon doors. You know the falcon doors that I'm talking about? Like the ones ...
"Are Electric Cars Really Better for the Climate?" on How to Save a Planet. I still respect Blumberg because of the work he did before, but I don't feel any longer like he can relate to what my life is, and so I don't feel like he can deliver the stories I want to listen to.
posted by rebent at 5:01 PM on March 14, 2021 [6 favorites]
Ayana: A definitely fancy one.
Alex: A definitely fancy one. Podcasting turned out to be an unexpectedly lucrative career for me late in life, after a career in public radio. And so I was actually able to afford a nice car. But there's this trade-off with the car that I have, which is that I wanted the kind of Tesla that can sit at least six people in order to cart kids and family around, but the only kind of Tesla that was big enough for that, had these falcon doors. You know the falcon doors that I'm talking about? Like the ones ...
"Are Electric Cars Really Better for the Climate?" on How to Save a Planet. I still respect Blumberg because of the work he did before, but I don't feel any longer like he can relate to what my life is, and so I don't feel like he can deliver the stories I want to listen to.
posted by rebent at 5:01 PM on March 14, 2021 [6 favorites]
It appears the question answers itself: What went wrong at Gimlet? The bumbling white-guy persona.
This is always the problem. If white guys do a thing, they will be more successful at it because it makes white guys more comfortable to consume and support it. It opens doors. It lets the white guys talk over everybody else and make their shitty management decisions* with an air of humbly-baffled gratitude about what could only be some kind of megatalent, because how else could we be so successful if it's not that we are brilliant at this - the this we set all the standards for as we sucked up all the available cash and attention?? Gosh, who knew bumbling little old Us were so undeniably talented?? All these problems, no no, we're working on it and we're certain we're brilliant (and all the white guys supporting us don't care), so it'll be fine! We just land on our feet somehow, every time. So weird.
* that mostly involves just hiring other white guys until they can't get away with that anymore, but also it involves an unshakeable faith that every management theory they come up with is also brilliant and perfect
The first season of Startup was literally marketing the bumble, it was getting ahead of the narrative - because it's always a dangerous period when someone decides to break away from the "this technology is for passion not money" and nakedly go for the dollars, but oooh we love a "startup" - to invent the story of a success in (seeming) spite of itself. People ate it up like candy, a million podcast networks were born, almost all of them have now sold out to a single entity if they didn't self-destruct at the hands of the white guys who were too focused on how much money they could make and/or power they could abuse.
In summary to my rant: one small thing you could do, when someone asks for podcast recommendations, is count the hosts (and production team, if applicable). All or almost all white men? Maybe just don't rec, and really stop suggesting Reply All to every thread (still even after all this has come out.) Go through your podcatcher and reconsider who's in your subscription list. If you love a topic, go find other people talking about it. Only keep a White Guys Talking podcast subscribed if you really truly love it and there's really nothing like it - hold them to a higher standard, significantly higher, than you would a podcast of marginalized voices instead of letting collective and personal unconscious bias set a bar that can never be met by anybody but those white guys.
posted by Lyn Never at 5:09 PM on March 14, 2021 [50 favorites]
This is always the problem. If white guys do a thing, they will be more successful at it because it makes white guys more comfortable to consume and support it. It opens doors. It lets the white guys talk over everybody else and make their shitty management decisions* with an air of humbly-baffled gratitude about what could only be some kind of megatalent, because how else could we be so successful if it's not that we are brilliant at this - the this we set all the standards for as we sucked up all the available cash and attention?? Gosh, who knew bumbling little old Us were so undeniably talented?? All these problems, no no, we're working on it and we're certain we're brilliant (and all the white guys supporting us don't care), so it'll be fine! We just land on our feet somehow, every time. So weird.
* that mostly involves just hiring other white guys until they can't get away with that anymore, but also it involves an unshakeable faith that every management theory they come up with is also brilliant and perfect
The first season of Startup was literally marketing the bumble, it was getting ahead of the narrative - because it's always a dangerous period when someone decides to break away from the "this technology is for passion not money" and nakedly go for the dollars, but oooh we love a "startup" - to invent the story of a success in (seeming) spite of itself. People ate it up like candy, a million podcast networks were born, almost all of them have now sold out to a single entity if they didn't self-destruct at the hands of the white guys who were too focused on how much money they could make and/or power they could abuse.
In summary to my rant: one small thing you could do, when someone asks for podcast recommendations, is count the hosts (and production team, if applicable). All or almost all white men? Maybe just don't rec, and really stop suggesting Reply All to every thread (still even after all this has come out.) Go through your podcatcher and reconsider who's in your subscription list. If you love a topic, go find other people talking about it. Only keep a White Guys Talking podcast subscribed if you really truly love it and there's really nothing like it - hold them to a higher standard, significantly higher, than you would a podcast of marginalized voices instead of letting collective and personal unconscious bias set a bar that can never be met by anybody but those white guys.
posted by Lyn Never at 5:09 PM on March 14, 2021 [50 favorites]
Something very weird about this.
Well, for one thing, it's complete and utter nonsense? The cancel culture framing is not remotely accurate to begin with - the people interviewed for their Test Kitchen expose weren't "canceled" they experienced racism.
posted by graventy at 5:24 PM on March 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
Well, for one thing, it's complete and utter nonsense? The cancel culture framing is not remotely accurate to begin with - the people interviewed for their Test Kitchen expose weren't "canceled" they experienced racism.
posted by graventy at 5:24 PM on March 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
I've been sad about this whole thing because one of the people involved was the most adorable fourth grader a very long time ago.
Yeah, I taught rich kids in a prep school.
posted by Peach at 5:33 PM on March 14, 2021 [21 favorites]
Yeah, I taught rich kids in a prep school.
posted by Peach at 5:33 PM on March 14, 2021 [21 favorites]
That NYT piece needs an editor. Or two. Or a rewrite.
posted by Ideefixe at 5:34 PM on March 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by Ideefixe at 5:34 PM on March 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
The thing I've been having the hardest time wrapping my head around is --
Reply All was worth _money_?
It was definitely a podcast with some pretty good highs but I didn't realize the entire business model was ads on Reply All. They clearly have a research team, have had some pretty expensive investigations, and didn't release episodes weekly, so I assumed the parent company had a major source of revenue that Reply All was a loss leader for.
My anchor for how much a podcast can be worth is: Chapo Trap House is still the one of the top podcasts on Patreon, and it pulls in $170k a month, or about $2m/year.
The idea that a company whose business model is ad-supported podcasts could be worth $230 million really surprises me. I feel like I must be missing something about this whole affair.
posted by LSK at 5:36 PM on March 14, 2021 [17 favorites]
Reply All was worth _money_?
It was definitely a podcast with some pretty good highs but I didn't realize the entire business model was ads on Reply All. They clearly have a research team, have had some pretty expensive investigations, and didn't release episodes weekly, so I assumed the parent company had a major source of revenue that Reply All was a loss leader for.
My anchor for how much a podcast can be worth is: Chapo Trap House is still the one of the top podcasts on Patreon, and it pulls in $170k a month, or about $2m/year.
The idea that a company whose business model is ad-supported podcasts could be worth $230 million really surprises me. I feel like I must be missing something about this whole affair.
posted by LSK at 5:36 PM on March 14, 2021 [17 favorites]
For what it's worth, I'm enjoying Stolen: the Search for Jermain, a new Gimlet podcast by Connie Walker, who did the Missing and Murdered podcast for the CBC. It's sort of true crime, but it's really about violence against Indigenous women and how the same problems that are getting lots of attention in Canada are also going on in the US. It's not perfect: the second episode had a fair amount of uncritical discussion of "human trafficking," which probably needs to be addressed critically. But it's good, and I'm going to continue to listen to it.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 5:37 PM on March 14, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 5:37 PM on March 14, 2021 [4 favorites]
Only keep a White Guys Talking podcast subscribed if you really truly love it and there's really nothing like it - hold them to a higher standard, significantly higher, than you would a podcast of marginalized voices instead of letting collective and personal unconscious bias set a bar that can never be met by anybody but those white guys.
A while back a friend was complaining on FB that he wanted to like podcasts but he was annoyed that it was hard to find podcast hosts who didn’t seem to be smug and under-informed about their topic. I was confused about this because there are so many podcasts of so many different kinds! I probed a bit and it turned out that all the podcasts he listens to are hosted by straight white cis men. I was like “well there’s your problem!”
I told him, just very honestly, that I have not had this problem with my podcast feed that is explicitly not comprised of straight cis white men. Then someone else came in and told me I was just trying to brag about how “woke” I am. Cue eye roll. But seriously, there are so many voices in podcasting doing so many interesting things. White men are not necessarily doing the best work but of course they’re getting the paydays.
posted by lunasol at 5:48 PM on March 14, 2021 [21 favorites]
A while back a friend was complaining on FB that he wanted to like podcasts but he was annoyed that it was hard to find podcast hosts who didn’t seem to be smug and under-informed about their topic. I was confused about this because there are so many podcasts of so many different kinds! I probed a bit and it turned out that all the podcasts he listens to are hosted by straight white cis men. I was like “well there’s your problem!”
I told him, just very honestly, that I have not had this problem with my podcast feed that is explicitly not comprised of straight cis white men. Then someone else came in and told me I was just trying to brag about how “woke” I am. Cue eye roll. But seriously, there are so many voices in podcasting doing so many interesting things. White men are not necessarily doing the best work but of course they’re getting the paydays.
posted by lunasol at 5:48 PM on March 14, 2021 [21 favorites]
The idea that a company whose business model is ad-supported podcasts could be worth $230 million really surprises me. I feel like I must be missing something about this whole affair.
Oh, I don't think "these are valuable ad-supported podcasts" is what Spotify was looking at when they bought Gimlet. They were looking at the number of people who listen to Gimlet podcasts and turning those people into Spotify subscribers. Was it smart to do that? Beats me, but Spotify has been gobbling up talk content to try and expand its reach past music listeners and into the AM radio crowd.
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 6:00 PM on March 14, 2021 [8 favorites]
Oh, I don't think "these are valuable ad-supported podcasts" is what Spotify was looking at when they bought Gimlet. They were looking at the number of people who listen to Gimlet podcasts and turning those people into Spotify subscribers. Was it smart to do that? Beats me, but Spotify has been gobbling up talk content to try and expand its reach past music listeners and into the AM radio crowd.
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 6:00 PM on March 14, 2021 [8 favorites]
StartUp painted a consistently breezy picture of the office, one that was unnaturally transparent
Which is odd, because even cursory questioning of the podcast showed how transparent it wasn't.
posted by jeather at 6:37 PM on March 14, 2021
Which is odd, because even cursory questioning of the podcast showed how transparent it wasn't.
posted by jeather at 6:37 PM on March 14, 2021
another former staffer and a source still at the company described the meeting as being more about Pinnamaneni trying to build a space where workers could feel free to express their concerns about the unionizing process without the organizing committee present.
I love Pinnamaneni's work more than most. But, come on! I can't actually tell whether this is intended as humor by the writer. I'll assume so. But, it's mighty subtle.
I've been someone who has been pressured to support a union when I didn't think they were right. I would have liked a space to talk about the issues without being shouted down by an organizing committee. Gimlet didn't even have a union yet - and maybe not all workers wanted one. They had just as much right to hold meetings to talk about it as those who supported forming a union.
No one, not even a union, gets to be in the right all the time. Unions are awesome and the number one reason that we have some employment standards. They are also inflexible, historically prone to corruption, and really don't deal with dissent well. There are debates to be had about how well they fit into some workplaces - and if they are to be implemented, how they will be structured to work in that specific situation.
posted by jb at 7:31 PM on March 14, 2021 [20 favorites]
I love Pinnamaneni's work more than most. But, come on! I can't actually tell whether this is intended as humor by the writer. I'll assume so. But, it's mighty subtle.
I've been someone who has been pressured to support a union when I didn't think they were right. I would have liked a space to talk about the issues without being shouted down by an organizing committee. Gimlet didn't even have a union yet - and maybe not all workers wanted one. They had just as much right to hold meetings to talk about it as those who supported forming a union.
No one, not even a union, gets to be in the right all the time. Unions are awesome and the number one reason that we have some employment standards. They are also inflexible, historically prone to corruption, and really don't deal with dissent well. There are debates to be had about how well they fit into some workplaces - and if they are to be implemented, how they will be structured to work in that specific situation.
posted by jb at 7:31 PM on March 14, 2021 [20 favorites]
I probed a bit and it turned out that all the podcasts he listens to are hosted by straight white cis men. I was like “well there’s your problem!”
Hey now. Well There's Your Problem is an excellent and entertaining podcast about major engineering failures. Coincidentally, with hosts who are not all cis white guys.
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 8:15 PM on March 14, 2021 [12 favorites]
Hey now. Well There's Your Problem is an excellent and entertaining podcast about major engineering failures. Coincidentally, with hosts who are not all cis white guys.
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 8:15 PM on March 14, 2021 [12 favorites]
Podcasts are the new blogs, we are now entering the "overpay and underdeliver" phase of any new internet technology.
posted by benzenedream at 8:16 PM on March 14, 2021 [7 favorites]
posted by benzenedream at 8:16 PM on March 14, 2021 [7 favorites]
The Vulture story just kind of makes things sound like a mess. The NYT, meanwhile, gets this quote
Green’s essay is a bit frustrating because he sort of dances around why he finally left. (His arc is doing contract work, leaving angrily, doing contract work, being hired full time, lasting through the Spotify acquisition and union announcement, and then leaving. There’s a sense that he didn’t think the system was going to change, but I wish he was more explicit -or explained why he didn’t think the union would matter for that. In the end, though, these stories seem to all be about an emotional, wearing grind.
The other really interesting thing about the C C Paschal piece is the descriptions of WNYC, On The Media, and Radiolab as being full of bros and not great work environments. More dish on that, please.
posted by Going To Maine at 8:41 PM on March 14, 2021 [7 favorites]
“If you’re really honest and ethical and you want to talk about this experiment in starting a business, you’ve got to talk about all the parts of the experiment, the ugly parts,” said Chenjerai Kumanyika, a friend of Mr. Blumberg’s who co-hosted and executive produced the Peabody-winning Gimlet podcast “Uncivil.” “You’ve got to talk about the experiment when it goes wrong.”Which is itself interesting because C C Paschal specifically writes about being treated badly while working on Uncivil, and on being ignored during the Peabody Ceremony (after her departure) by the person who received the awared… Chenjerai Kumanyika. Similarly, there’s this interesting little contrast between Paschal’s account of being forced to be at all-staff meetings (that folks at high-performing shows could skip) while James T. Green describes the experience of being a contractor at Gimlet and not being allowed into those same meetings.
Green’s essay is a bit frustrating because he sort of dances around why he finally left. (His arc is doing contract work, leaving angrily, doing contract work, being hired full time, lasting through the Spotify acquisition and union announcement, and then leaving. There’s a sense that he didn’t think the system was going to change, but I wish he was more explicit -or explained why he didn’t think the union would matter for that. In the end, though, these stories seem to all be about an emotional, wearing grind.
The other really interesting thing about the C C Paschal piece is the descriptions of WNYC, On The Media, and Radiolab as being full of bros and not great work environments. More dish on that, please.
posted by Going To Maine at 8:41 PM on March 14, 2021 [7 favorites]
Apologies if this was already linked, but seemingly any media outlet that is calling out wrongdoing at another media out let will have its own issues.
Many of those who are accused of perpetuating harm at Gimlet are no longer in supervisory roles.
At NYT they have been promoted. And in some cases are in charge of overseeing their diversity efforts.
posted by juv3nal at 9:15 PM on March 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
Many of those who are accused of perpetuating harm at Gimlet are no longer in supervisory roles.
At NYT they have been promoted. And in some cases are in charge of overseeing their diversity efforts.
posted by juv3nal at 9:15 PM on March 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
(oh just for the record I haven't seen anything bad about the Vulture)
posted by juv3nal at 9:19 PM on March 14, 2021
posted by juv3nal at 9:19 PM on March 14, 2021
Apologies if this was already linked, but seemingly any media outlet that is calling out wrongdoing at another media out let will have its own issues.
They should never have built the test kitchen on that burial ground.
posted by Going To Maine at 9:28 PM on March 14, 2021 [13 favorites]
They should never have built the test kitchen on that burial ground.
posted by Going To Maine at 9:28 PM on March 14, 2021 [13 favorites]
The idea that a company whose business model is ad-supported podcasts could be worth $230 million really surprises me. I feel like I must be missing something about this whole affair.
The "tech" business model depends on broadly two things; non-linear scaling and natural monopolies.
Non-linear scaling is where it costs a lot less to do something as you do a lot more of it. It costs more to run an online bookstore with 5 million different books than one with 5 thousand, but it doesn't cost a thousand times as much. All of the programming involved with setting up a store and cart and payment; all the establishing of logistics; most of that is a fixed cost and adding more titles doesn't cost all that much. Even building a warehouse to hold the books -- the first thousand books sell a lot more and need a lot more space than books 4,999,000 to 5,000,000. The same -- even more -- the more digital your product is. (Which is why social networks are terrified of doing high quality moderation; that costs money per post, and breaks the non-linear scaling part of the model.)
Natural monopolies are where everyone in a market will tend to go towards the biggest player. If you want to buy a book online, you want to go to the store with the most books; if you want to sell a book online, it's important to get it to the store who sells to the largest audience of people. If the book makers really want to sell in the most popular store, the store can demand they sell it to them cheaper; if the books are cheaper in one store, they'll sell to more people.
In the non-real world, natural monopolies don't exist in as many domains because of silly things like physics. A book seller with five million books would take up several city blocks and it would become a nuisance to find and get your books; if a book seller was a dollar cheaper but was on the far side of town, you'd save your time and go to the local bookseller. But in the tech world, those constraints don't exist to the same degree. (Note that just because certain monopolies are "natural" doesn't mean that they shouldn't or couldn't be broken up, regulated, etc. Dying of smallpox was natural, too at one point.)
The first wave of tech companies produced a handful of giants like Microsoft, Google, Facebook and Amazon that control massive amounts of the economy. Amazon and Facebook recently defended themselves at a congressional hearing by claiming that they controlled very small shares of their respective industries, which they defined as "all commerce on the planet" and "communication between humans", respectively.
In this second phase of tech companies, the post-2012 unicorn phase, companies are trying to become the dominant natural monopolies in whatever their fields are, so they can become massive and dominate their portions of the world. And investors are throwing all the money they can at companies who might dominate whatever field. Some of them might become new tech giants. Some of them I think are really just businesses with a "tech" veneer, like Uber or (especially) WeWork, where there isn't that non-linear scaling, and perhaps not the same natural monopoly nature.
Anyways, the idea isn't that one specific podcast company is worth $230 million because there are that many mattress and meal box startups desperate for ad space (*although this is part of this unicorn-wave tech bubble too). The idea is that there might be a natural monopoly market for listening to people tell stories or have interesting conversations, and if Spotify can lock down all of the important players, they can be that monopoly. At which point they can extract their money from both us and their suppliers. I'm honestly not sure whether this could be the case -- podcasts seem plausibly like something with non-linear scaling, and I can imagine the same natural monopoly dynamic pulling everyone to the biggest market, especially paired with music.
posted by Superilla at 12:53 AM on March 15, 2021 [25 favorites]
The "tech" business model depends on broadly two things; non-linear scaling and natural monopolies.
Non-linear scaling is where it costs a lot less to do something as you do a lot more of it. It costs more to run an online bookstore with 5 million different books than one with 5 thousand, but it doesn't cost a thousand times as much. All of the programming involved with setting up a store and cart and payment; all the establishing of logistics; most of that is a fixed cost and adding more titles doesn't cost all that much. Even building a warehouse to hold the books -- the first thousand books sell a lot more and need a lot more space than books 4,999,000 to 5,000,000. The same -- even more -- the more digital your product is. (Which is why social networks are terrified of doing high quality moderation; that costs money per post, and breaks the non-linear scaling part of the model.)
Natural monopolies are where everyone in a market will tend to go towards the biggest player. If you want to buy a book online, you want to go to the store with the most books; if you want to sell a book online, it's important to get it to the store who sells to the largest audience of people. If the book makers really want to sell in the most popular store, the store can demand they sell it to them cheaper; if the books are cheaper in one store, they'll sell to more people.
In the non-real world, natural monopolies don't exist in as many domains because of silly things like physics. A book seller with five million books would take up several city blocks and it would become a nuisance to find and get your books; if a book seller was a dollar cheaper but was on the far side of town, you'd save your time and go to the local bookseller. But in the tech world, those constraints don't exist to the same degree. (Note that just because certain monopolies are "natural" doesn't mean that they shouldn't or couldn't be broken up, regulated, etc. Dying of smallpox was natural, too at one point.)
The first wave of tech companies produced a handful of giants like Microsoft, Google, Facebook and Amazon that control massive amounts of the economy. Amazon and Facebook recently defended themselves at a congressional hearing by claiming that they controlled very small shares of their respective industries, which they defined as "all commerce on the planet" and "communication between humans", respectively.
In this second phase of tech companies, the post-2012 unicorn phase, companies are trying to become the dominant natural monopolies in whatever their fields are, so they can become massive and dominate their portions of the world. And investors are throwing all the money they can at companies who might dominate whatever field. Some of them might become new tech giants. Some of them I think are really just businesses with a "tech" veneer, like Uber or (especially) WeWork, where there isn't that non-linear scaling, and perhaps not the same natural monopoly nature.
Anyways, the idea isn't that one specific podcast company is worth $230 million because there are that many mattress and meal box startups desperate for ad space (*although this is part of this unicorn-wave tech bubble too). The idea is that there might be a natural monopoly market for listening to people tell stories or have interesting conversations, and if Spotify can lock down all of the important players, they can be that monopoly. At which point they can extract their money from both us and their suppliers. I'm honestly not sure whether this could be the case -- podcasts seem plausibly like something with non-linear scaling, and I can imagine the same natural monopoly dynamic pulling everyone to the biggest market, especially paired with music.
posted by Superilla at 12:53 AM on March 15, 2021 [25 favorites]
Apropos of nothing I just learned that they made a TV show based on Startup starring Zach Braff as Alex Blumberg. (which was by all accounts terrible)
posted by onya at 3:13 AM on March 15, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by onya at 3:13 AM on March 15, 2021 [3 favorites]
Gimlet didn't even have a union yet - and maybe not all workers wanted one. They had just as much right to hold meetings to talk about it as those who supported forming a union.
Maybe if the anti-union side is full of people set to get a 6 figure payday if there is no union, and the pro-union side is full of people who won't get anything, there's slightly more to the story than "not all workers wanted them".
posted by jeather at 6:31 AM on March 15, 2021 [9 favorites]
Maybe if the anti-union side is full of people set to get a 6 figure payday if there is no union, and the pro-union side is full of people who won't get anything, there's slightly more to the story than "not all workers wanted them".
posted by jeather at 6:31 AM on March 15, 2021 [9 favorites]
Apologies if this was already linked, but seemingly any media outlet that is calling out wrongdoing at another media out let will have its own issues.
The joke on reddit has been that this Bon Appetit story is like the videotape in The Ring, infecting and destroying all who touch it.
Apropos of nothing I just learned that they made a TV show based on Startup starring Zach Braff as Alex Blumberg. (which was by all accounts terrible)
HBO Max has announced a sitcom based on Bon Appetit's fall.
posted by msbrauer at 6:50 AM on March 15, 2021 [4 favorites]
The joke on reddit has been that this Bon Appetit story is like the videotape in The Ring, infecting and destroying all who touch it.
Apropos of nothing I just learned that they made a TV show based on Startup starring Zach Braff as Alex Blumberg. (which was by all accounts terrible)
HBO Max has announced a sitcom based on Bon Appetit's fall.
posted by msbrauer at 6:50 AM on March 15, 2021 [4 favorites]
This profound essay is linked in the first article.
posted by anshuman at 7:23 AM on March 15, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by anshuman at 7:23 AM on March 15, 2021 [3 favorites]
Maybe if the anti-union side is full of people set to get a 6 figure payday if there is no union, and the pro-union side is full of people who won't get anything, there's slightly more to the story than "not all workers wanted them".
Hi, I was there. I don't particularly want to spill any tea. But that's not really how this broke down. Many members of the organizing committee were in line to get tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of dollars. I think that getting 100k is great, but it doesn't erase or negate feeling as though your work isn't valued and that you aren't able to get your vision for work past editors who may not understand your values.
posted by Alex Goldman at 7:31 AM on March 15, 2021 [41 favorites]
Hi, I was there. I don't particularly want to spill any tea. But that's not really how this broke down. Many members of the organizing committee were in line to get tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of dollars. I think that getting 100k is great, but it doesn't erase or negate feeling as though your work isn't valued and that you aren't able to get your vision for work past editors who may not understand your values.
posted by Alex Goldman at 7:31 AM on March 15, 2021 [41 favorites]
I'm pro union! I was responding to an anti-ish union comment. Were there people against the union at Gimlet who were NOT in line to get a payout? That feels like the relevant question. (I think it's great that people who were in line to get money were still pro-union, especially if it was 6 figures -- I hope I would be on that side.)
This might not be something you want to answer, and I respect that.
I really want to clarify though, that the comment was "maybe not all Gimlet employees wanted [a union]" in the context of why anti-union messaging was fine, and I think that the money being paid out possibly contigent on no union and how the anti-union people (and sure, not all unions are great, see most police unions) compared to the pro-union people wrt getting money from the sale to Spotify really matters to "well maybe Gimlet just didn't need a union" as an argument.
posted by jeather at 7:54 AM on March 15, 2021
This might not be something you want to answer, and I respect that.
I really want to clarify though, that the comment was "maybe not all Gimlet employees wanted [a union]" in the context of why anti-union messaging was fine, and I think that the money being paid out possibly contigent on no union and how the anti-union people (and sure, not all unions are great, see most police unions) compared to the pro-union people wrt getting money from the sale to Spotify really matters to "well maybe Gimlet just didn't need a union" as an argument.
posted by jeather at 7:54 AM on March 15, 2021
A union wouldn't stop people from getting money from the sale to Spotify via shares. That has already happened, right?
Research on what makes a satisfying work environment point to three/four key factors. Autonomy, mastery, purpose. Recognition/compensation/fairness (not necessarily about money) is important too.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 8:18 AM on March 15, 2021 [2 favorites]
Research on what makes a satisfying work environment point to three/four key factors. Autonomy, mastery, purpose. Recognition/compensation/fairness (not necessarily about money) is important too.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 8:18 AM on March 15, 2021 [2 favorites]
I think it's interesting that the "publicly taking to people" market was largely monopolized by Facebook after Google killed RSS and by extension the blogosphere, and now it's the last vestige of RSS that's keeping the likes of Spotify from monopolizing podcasting.
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 8:26 AM on March 15, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 8:26 AM on March 15, 2021 [6 favorites]
a TV show based on Startup starring Zach Braff as Alex Blumberg
In which circle of hell is this playing on a neverending loop
posted by Beardman at 9:39 AM on March 15, 2021 [2 favorites]
In which circle of hell is this playing on a neverending loop
posted by Beardman at 9:39 AM on March 15, 2021 [2 favorites]
Ha, I moodily searched "what killed rss" and the link I liked best was to a substack.
posted by clew at 9:59 AM on March 15, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by clew at 9:59 AM on March 15, 2021 [1 favorite]
A union wouldn't stop people from getting money from the sale to Spotify via shares. That has already happened, right?
No. But by the time people are getting hired for a salary and not equity (the kind of people who would want to unionize), the days of getting a decent exit are long, long, over.
Working for equity kinda means you are betting that you alone have the skill/luck/determination/etc to buck the trend and make sure the company doesn't flame out and leave you a pile of worthless options, when eventually "owning X% of absolutely nothing" is what almost always happens. If you believe in collective bargaining, and that a group of people working for their common good is the best way forward, you aren't going to want to be paid in almost certainly worthless lottery tickets.
posted by sideshow at 10:24 AM on March 15, 2021 [1 favorite]
No. But by the time people are getting hired for a salary and not equity (the kind of people who would want to unionize), the days of getting a decent exit are long, long, over.
Working for equity kinda means you are betting that you alone have the skill/luck/determination/etc to buck the trend and make sure the company doesn't flame out and leave you a pile of worthless options, when eventually "owning X% of absolutely nothing" is what almost always happens. If you believe in collective bargaining, and that a group of people working for their common good is the best way forward, you aren't going to want to be paid in almost certainly worthless lottery tickets.
posted by sideshow at 10:24 AM on March 15, 2021 [1 favorite]
qxntpqbbbqxl, I just tried to struggle through their 737 Max episode and... it's all lulz and giggles and every once in a while a dribble of information gleaned from news articles. For instance, they're proud of not knowing how to pronounce the name of a major aircraft manufacturer.
No, they're not all cis white dudes but that's where the differences end.
posted by tigrrrlily at 11:46 AM on March 15, 2021 [4 favorites]
No, they're not all cis white dudes but that's where the differences end.
posted by tigrrrlily at 11:46 AM on March 15, 2021 [4 favorites]
They’re better with historical events. I haven’t been listening long, but I enjoyed the Vulcan Bridge episode, wherein a small West Virginia town appeals to the USSR for help rebuilding a bridge.
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 1:48 PM on March 15, 2021
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 1:48 PM on March 15, 2021
Hi, I was there
Hey Alex, long time fan. Thank you for being a decent person.
I just listened to your appearance on Good Christian Fun and it is clear how much pride you felt for the test kitchen series before it was released.
I don't think that pride was totally misplaced. The series shouldn't have been released without more context and a different host, but it was extremely successful at documenting toxic workplace culture.
Making reflexively self aware audio probably sucks shit right now, but I hope you get back to it someday because you're genuinely good at it.
posted by zymil at 5:03 PM on March 15, 2021 [2 favorites]
Hey Alex, long time fan. Thank you for being a decent person.
I just listened to your appearance on Good Christian Fun and it is clear how much pride you felt for the test kitchen series before it was released.
I don't think that pride was totally misplaced. The series shouldn't have been released without more context and a different host, but it was extremely successful at documenting toxic workplace culture.
Making reflexively self aware audio probably sucks shit right now, but I hope you get back to it someday because you're genuinely good at it.
posted by zymil at 5:03 PM on March 15, 2021 [2 favorites]
I've been someone who has been pressured to support a union when I didn't think they were right. I would have liked a space to talk about the issues without being shouted down by an organizing committee. Gimlet didn't even have a union yet - and maybe not all workers wanted one. They had just as much right to hold meetings to talk about it as those who supported forming a union...
posted by jb at 7:31 PM on March 14
You have an absolute right to talk to your coworkers about critical views of unions. Literally no one can stop you.
Union organizers on the other hand have no guaranteed right to talk to you in favor of unions. You can simply say, "I don't want to talk to you" and walk away if they approach you. While it's possible a coworker may feel negatively about that, in the great majority of contexts, that coworker would have no power to act against you in any way because of your preference. Nor would a union organizer.
There's a name for when your employer calls a mandatory meeting where they talk about the bad things about unions: It's called a "captive audience meeting" and it's called that because as an employee in the US, we don't have the right to say, "No thanks, I don't want to hear your anti-union talk, I'm not attending this meeting." If we did say something like that, our at-will employer could simply fire us. This is a huge problem for labor and one exciting element of the PRO Act (Call your senator today and demand they vote for it!) is a proposed ban on these mandatory union busting sessions.
The balance of power is on so heavily weighted toward the employer that there's no comparison to any pressure you may experience from a union organizer. Your employer has the legal right to determine your pay, your schedule, the work you do, the conditions in which you do it, almost everything about your working life! A union organizer might, I don't, make you feel uncomfortable.
The boss should never hold a mandatory anti-union meeting at work, period. You're more than free to talk about it on your own time - even to gather like-minded coworkers! But making that anti-union conversation happen on your work time, and funded through the deep pockets of the employer, tips the scale in a way that perpetuatees the current state we're in of about 6% private sector union density in the US.
posted by latkes at 7:29 PM on March 15, 2021 [21 favorites]
posted by jb at 7:31 PM on March 14
You have an absolute right to talk to your coworkers about critical views of unions. Literally no one can stop you.
Union organizers on the other hand have no guaranteed right to talk to you in favor of unions. You can simply say, "I don't want to talk to you" and walk away if they approach you. While it's possible a coworker may feel negatively about that, in the great majority of contexts, that coworker would have no power to act against you in any way because of your preference. Nor would a union organizer.
There's a name for when your employer calls a mandatory meeting where they talk about the bad things about unions: It's called a "captive audience meeting" and it's called that because as an employee in the US, we don't have the right to say, "No thanks, I don't want to hear your anti-union talk, I'm not attending this meeting." If we did say something like that, our at-will employer could simply fire us. This is a huge problem for labor and one exciting element of the PRO Act (Call your senator today and demand they vote for it!) is a proposed ban on these mandatory union busting sessions.
The balance of power is on so heavily weighted toward the employer that there's no comparison to any pressure you may experience from a union organizer. Your employer has the legal right to determine your pay, your schedule, the work you do, the conditions in which you do it, almost everything about your working life! A union organizer might, I don't, make you feel uncomfortable.
The boss should never hold a mandatory anti-union meeting at work, period. You're more than free to talk about it on your own time - even to gather like-minded coworkers! But making that anti-union conversation happen on your work time, and funded through the deep pockets of the employer, tips the scale in a way that perpetuatees the current state we're in of about 6% private sector union density in the US.
posted by latkes at 7:29 PM on March 15, 2021 [21 favorites]
Thank you for sharing here Alex.
posted by latkes at 8:41 PM on March 15, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by latkes at 8:41 PM on March 15, 2021 [1 favorite]
Hey Alex
Love you and your work! (What zymil said too)
Didymium
posted by Didymium at 8:37 AM on March 16, 2021
Love you and your work! (What zymil said too)
Didymium
posted by Didymium at 8:37 AM on March 16, 2021
[Well There's Your Problem are] better with historical events.
I gave it a try, but the historical episodes were 70% filler and very little discussion of the safety nuances that are interesting. I have a fairly low tolerance for dudebro banter though.
posted by benzenedream at 5:04 PM on March 21, 2021 [2 favorites]
I gave it a try, but the historical episodes were 70% filler and very little discussion of the safety nuances that are interesting. I have a fairly low tolerance for dudebro banter though.
posted by benzenedream at 5:04 PM on March 21, 2021 [2 favorites]
Hey now. Well There's Your Problem is an excellent and entertaining podcast about major engineering failures. Coincidentally, with hosts who are not all cis white guys.
This is good to know because the subject matter is right up my alley and when recommended here on mefi I gave it a try. I unfortunately turned it off about halfway through the one episode I sampled because of the bro-athon happening. I thought it was a shame that they couldn't just stick to what could be a really engaging subject and chalked it up to being just another white boys who like to hear themselves talk podcast. If there's other hosts in the series and I just got unlucky in my pick of which episode to listen, I'll give it another try.
posted by newpotato at 6:18 AM on March 30, 2021 [1 favorite]
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