Being the only poor person at a tech startup
May 19, 2021 8:41 AM Subscribe
“I freaked out and cheered over a bonus only to watch the rest of my team quietly put their checks in their wallets and say nothing.” Meg Elison relates some of her experiences being the only person at a tech startup who had to worry about money.
Never been in a start-up, but grew up welfare-poor and went to a moderately fancy law school, so lots of these hit home. Very insightful, though I would have figured tech start-ups would have attracted more people from economically diverse backgrounds--or do you need to go to a fancy elementary/middle/high school now to get good programming jobs?
posted by skewed at 8:55 AM on May 19, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by skewed at 8:55 AM on May 19, 2021 [2 favorites]
The start up world in SF seems so toxic, even though I work in tech with many millionaires for whom some of this stuff is true and for many more are exactly like the author, and some are literal refugees whose home life seemed much worse. Hot cheetos are not a class signifier anywhere else but there I swear. Tech is not like this around the entire country. I'm not a backwoods tech designer either. I work with Apple and Google regularly.
It always make me want to offer these people jobs away from all that nonsense.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:57 AM on May 19, 2021 [14 favorites]
It always make me want to offer these people jobs away from all that nonsense.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:57 AM on May 19, 2021 [14 favorites]
The last tech startup I worked at was way fish out of water experience. People (and my coworkers were great) marveled that I had lived a life, but I just marveled that they had a family and could afford to own a home in this city.
It didn't make me, I dunno, want to trade places with them - I didn't want to start a family, and I liked the life I had lived. I just wanted to be more financially secure, and it realized that I may not be able to do that working at this tech startup. For my own happiness - and even though it was going to be 10x harder (work atmosphere is just so I dunno> pleasant), it may be a better idea to do something else.
posted by alex_skazat at 9:00 AM on May 19, 2021
It didn't make me, I dunno, want to trade places with them - I didn't want to start a family, and I liked the life I had lived. I just wanted to be more financially secure, and it realized that I may not be able to do that working at this tech startup. For my own happiness - and even though it was going to be 10x harder (work atmosphere is just so I dunno> pleasant), it may be a better idea to do something else.
posted by alex_skazat at 9:00 AM on May 19, 2021
See also, being a person without "family money" in a graduate program.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 9:08 AM on May 19, 2021 [33 favorites]
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 9:08 AM on May 19, 2021 [33 favorites]
I would have figured tech start-ups would have attracted more people from economically diverse backgrounds
In theory programming should be a class-blind activity . . . but you have to think about who would have regular access to computers, internet, time to practice and produce projects, teaching materials (if you're not going into formal schooling), and then you have to be able to network with people who do have all of those things in order to find and land the job. The tech bro stereotype exists for a reason.
posted by Anonymous at 9:09 AM on May 19, 2021
In theory programming should be a class-blind activity . . . but you have to think about who would have regular access to computers, internet, time to practice and produce projects, teaching materials (if you're not going into formal schooling), and then you have to be able to network with people who do have all of those things in order to find and land the job. The tech bro stereotype exists for a reason.
posted by Anonymous at 9:09 AM on May 19, 2021
do you need to go to a fancy elementary/middle/high school now to get good programming jobs?
More so in the start-up world. Especially early on, it's much more "let's see if Jeff (who I know from Harvard) is interested" and less a rigorous search for the actually best-qualified person.
It's also why these places tend to be male-heavy, overly white, and run headfirst into HR problems. They treat the business like a club of friends foremost.
posted by explosion at 9:10 AM on May 19, 2021 [33 favorites]
More so in the start-up world. Especially early on, it's much more "let's see if Jeff (who I know from Harvard) is interested" and less a rigorous search for the actually best-qualified person.
It's also why these places tend to be male-heavy, overly white, and run headfirst into HR problems. They treat the business like a club of friends foremost.
posted by explosion at 9:10 AM on May 19, 2021 [33 favorites]
So many of these hit home for me during, well, most of my life. Especially in academia, as biogeo and TheWhiteSkull note.
Here's one:
I knew I was the only poor person at my tech startup because I was the only person who would say hello to the cleaning lady as she meekly made her rounds around us when we worked late. Everyone else had a long habit of ignoring anyone like her.
I have always made a point of doing this, and learned much about people in different groups who do not.
posted by doctornemo at 9:15 AM on May 19, 2021 [50 favorites]
Here's one:
I knew I was the only poor person at my tech startup because I was the only person who would say hello to the cleaning lady as she meekly made her rounds around us when we worked late. Everyone else had a long habit of ignoring anyone like her.
I have always made a point of doing this, and learned much about people in different groups who do not.
posted by doctornemo at 9:15 AM on May 19, 2021 [50 favorites]
Academia is similar.
I'll say. My PhD supervisor had run a sports car while he was doing his PhD in London. I think he had no idea that the stipend might barely have changed over the 25 years till i got mine. Diet was largely based on whatever was on BOGOF. Keeping an eye out for whoever was running events on campus each lunchtime because they were generally very relaxed about students swarming in to clear up anything that was left at buffets, etc.
posted by biffa at 9:16 AM on May 19, 2021 [10 favorites]
I'll say. My PhD supervisor had run a sports car while he was doing his PhD in London. I think he had no idea that the stipend might barely have changed over the 25 years till i got mine. Diet was largely based on whatever was on BOGOF. Keeping an eye out for whoever was running events on campus each lunchtime because they were generally very relaxed about students swarming in to clear up anything that was left at buffets, etc.
posted by biffa at 9:16 AM on May 19, 2021 [10 favorites]
A friend of mine started his law career in earnest at a hot-shot firm in Toronto. Everyone at this firm, even the young guys doing the grunt work (of which he was one at the time), was making plenty of money, but while he brought in bagged lunches, kept driving his ordinary car and generally lived like a regular human being, most of the rest of them went through all of their paycheques and then some by going bottle-service clubbing, upgrading their flashy cars every year or so, developing expensive drug habits and generally continually attempting to one-up each other in conspicuous consuption, to the point where most of them amassed significant levels of debt. When they'd make fun of my friend for his comparitively frugal lifestyle he'd reply that he was saving tons of cash, and they'd scoff and tell him they'd just pay all their debt off once they climbed the ladder to a higher salary, but I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the treadmill they were on just got more and more expensive if they kept going down that path.
posted by The Card Cheat at 9:18 AM on May 19, 2021 [24 favorites]
posted by The Card Cheat at 9:18 AM on May 19, 2021 [24 favorites]
I was in a biotech startup in the '90s, also Bay Area, and knew a bunch of people "straight" tech as well. I'm wondering if things have changed that much? It was a near-entry level job for a lot of us, and while we weren't poor most of the food and freebies stories was stuff we all did. We would have noticed missing paychecks for sure, and I struggle to imagine anyone but a senior person saying they collected antiquities or anything like that. (Soccer, sure, but that's not an expensive hobby!)
I say this wondering how different things are, or if this is a weird outlier. But of course part of the privilege of not being poor is not feeling you're out of place when you do the same stuff.
posted by mark k at 9:20 AM on May 19, 2021 [4 favorites]
I say this wondering how different things are, or if this is a weird outlier. But of course part of the privilege of not being poor is not feeling you're out of place when you do the same stuff.
posted by mark k at 9:20 AM on May 19, 2021 [4 favorites]
Bonus addendum:
She knew she was poor because she hadn't heard of the "FIRE" (Financial Independence/Retire Early) brand of ascetic living that would help mask her frugality as the intentioned living of a richer person.
It's ridiculous how rich people can do the same stuff as poor people in only a slightly different way and it's considered "classy" or "responsible".
posted by explosion at 9:21 AM on May 19, 2021 [49 favorites]
She knew she was poor because she hadn't heard of the "FIRE" (Financial Independence/Retire Early) brand of ascetic living that would help mask her frugality as the intentioned living of a richer person.
It's ridiculous how rich people can do the same stuff as poor people in only a slightly different way and it's considered "classy" or "responsible".
posted by explosion at 9:21 AM on May 19, 2021 [49 favorites]
My example was when I was working a temp contract at a bank. One of the vice presidents proudly told us how he hired someone to assemble his model railway.
posted by Multicellular Exothermic at 9:24 AM on May 19, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by Multicellular Exothermic at 9:24 AM on May 19, 2021 [6 favorites]
When my wife was doing her PhD she was invited to a party thrown by a professor, who lived in an extremely expensive Eco House, and when she showed me a picture of the place it was hard not to think of the fact that her university had cut back on cleaning budgets to the point where grad students with office space were asked to be their own custodians.
posted by The Card Cheat at 9:25 AM on May 19, 2021 [13 favorites]
posted by The Card Cheat at 9:25 AM on May 19, 2021 [13 favorites]
Thank you for linking to this.
I recommend also this long interview with Lukas Blakk: "eating 15 free meals a week at Google was instrumental in saving $.....Then I had a list of things I had to take care of. I had to get a bunch of crowns on my teeth because I had a ton of root canals with only temporary fillings on them. Probably $7000 went into my teeth in the first couple years."
posted by brainwane at 9:25 AM on May 19, 2021 [9 favorites]
I recommend also this long interview with Lukas Blakk: "eating 15 free meals a week at Google was instrumental in saving $.....Then I had a list of things I had to take care of. I had to get a bunch of crowns on my teeth because I had a ton of root canals with only temporary fillings on them. Probably $7000 went into my teeth in the first couple years."
posted by brainwane at 9:25 AM on May 19, 2021 [9 favorites]
Academia is similar.
Maybe because faculty members were 25 times more likely to have a parent with a PhD than the general public. "About half of faculty surveyed reported at least one parent with a master's degree or higher. About 22 percent reported at least one parent with a Ph.D. Among faculty at “top-ranked” institutions, researchers said, the share of faculty whose parents had at least one Ph.D. rose to about a third."
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 9:33 AM on May 19, 2021 [2 favorites]
Maybe because faculty members were 25 times more likely to have a parent with a PhD than the general public. "About half of faculty surveyed reported at least one parent with a master's degree or higher. About 22 percent reported at least one parent with a Ph.D. Among faculty at “top-ranked” institutions, researchers said, the share of faculty whose parents had at least one Ph.D. rose to about a third."
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 9:33 AM on May 19, 2021 [2 favorites]
I grew up in a solid middle class life, but have been poor most of my adulthood from a combination of not choosing well and graduating college right before the recession and the like. This article resonated with me.
I’m now make a decent salary but I worry about going back to a shitty job. What if I got into a car accident? What if my job was automated?
I mentioned my fear to my then manager, one of the rich people. College (including an Ivy MBA) was covered by her parents. I’d be fine, she assured me.
I knew I wasn’t rich when I learned that security wasn’t something that was guaranteed to me.
posted by Monday at 9:47 AM on May 19, 2021 [14 favorites]
I’m now make a decent salary but I worry about going back to a shitty job. What if I got into a car accident? What if my job was automated?
I mentioned my fear to my then manager, one of the rich people. College (including an Ivy MBA) was covered by her parents. I’d be fine, she assured me.
I knew I wasn’t rich when I learned that security wasn’t something that was guaranteed to me.
posted by Monday at 9:47 AM on May 19, 2021 [14 favorites]
I would have figured tech start-ups would have attracted more people from economically diverse backgrounds
This is a mixed bag and depends a lot on the company and the location. SF startups in particular are notorious for hiring from a very narrow slice of US universities and being pretty white. In bigger companies you do see a bigger spread of socioeconomic backgrounds, although fairly few Americans who grew up poor. You tend to see more immigrants who did well in a public university elsewhere and immigrated to the US but who come from pretty limited means. In startups elsewhere you do see a bigger spread of people in terms of backgrounds.
posted by GuyZero at 9:47 AM on May 19, 2021 [6 favorites]
This is a mixed bag and depends a lot on the company and the location. SF startups in particular are notorious for hiring from a very narrow slice of US universities and being pretty white. In bigger companies you do see a bigger spread of socioeconomic backgrounds, although fairly few Americans who grew up poor. You tend to see more immigrants who did well in a public university elsewhere and immigrated to the US but who come from pretty limited means. In startups elsewhere you do see a bigger spread of people in terms of backgrounds.
posted by GuyZero at 9:47 AM on May 19, 2021 [6 favorites]
Yeah, I lived this. I got an entry-level support job at a tech startup at 31. I already had two kids and had to take a small pay cut compared to my retail tech support job, but the hours were better. It was a couple of weeks of watching them throw catered lunch leftovers away before I finally asked the office manager if she minded if I took the leftovers home. The amount of food I took home left me in tears--we ate on it for a week. I absolutely took drinks and snacks for my commute home....after an engineer mentioned he was taking a "road soda". I've worked my way up, slightly. At least I'm not doing customer support anymore, but I'm the only one of my coworkers still working in my garage since the office is closed.
But I also have always told new coworkers they can take home extra food, no problem.
posted by sleeping bear at 9:48 AM on May 19, 2021 [39 favorites]
But I also have always told new coworkers they can take home extra food, no problem.
posted by sleeping bear at 9:48 AM on May 19, 2021 [39 favorites]
I worked for a small startup in a social media/email marketing role as my first job after moving to NYC. I was being paid a pittance, with no benefits, but at least I wasn't the only one. Most of the staff were being paid similarly, save for the CTO and the founders, it seems. What truly stung was how out of touch the founders were, as they were former hedge fund schmucks, and had no damn clue about how their shitty pay and shitty views were keeping the company stagnant and held back. They cut corners everywhere, dicked people out of their promised equity, and abused and harassed a coworker for getting an unsolicited job offer from a former co-founder. The CTO, who was not a hedge fund schmuck, but a classic old-school tech bro, also brought in an intense dose of paranoia and outright abuse.
It left me with a gross taste in my mouth, and I have no interest in returning to an environment even close to that. I came close with a small company that was involved in credit card fraud prevention, but they weren't a VC-backed startup, just a scummy small company with scummy clients.
posted by SansPoint at 9:49 AM on May 19, 2021 [2 favorites]
It left me with a gross taste in my mouth, and I have no interest in returning to an environment even close to that. I came close with a small company that was involved in credit card fraud prevention, but they weren't a VC-backed startup, just a scummy small company with scummy clients.
posted by SansPoint at 9:49 AM on May 19, 2021 [2 favorites]
Always assume that people who pay you poorly are doing so with full awareness of exactly how poorly they are paying you.
posted by JohnFromGR at 9:53 AM on May 19, 2021 [37 favorites]
posted by JohnFromGR at 9:53 AM on May 19, 2021 [37 favorites]
I don’t know even what a lake house looks like. I wear my rough edges like a badge, stability be damned though.
Totally as an aside:
VRBO for this (which is what most of the 'gram is doing btw). Pick a less popular lake. Go in the middle of the week. The advantage of indifference is widely underestimated.
I suggest choosing a house with a porch and a chaise lounge and an absentee owner. Bring your rough edges and a bottle of sunscreen. These things are for everyone (if they appeal to you, which they don't have to).
Otherwise: very good article, reminds me of John Cheese at Cracked.
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:56 AM on May 19, 2021 [7 favorites]
Totally as an aside:
VRBO for this (which is what most of the 'gram is doing btw). Pick a less popular lake. Go in the middle of the week. The advantage of indifference is widely underestimated.
I suggest choosing a house with a porch and a chaise lounge and an absentee owner. Bring your rough edges and a bottle of sunscreen. These things are for everyone (if they appeal to you, which they don't have to).
Otherwise: very good article, reminds me of John Cheese at Cracked.
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:56 AM on May 19, 2021 [7 favorites]
Academia is similar.
Publishing, too, although in my less-glamorous niche of it there's less Parent Money and more Spouse Money. I will never forget the look of pure drawn horror that came over one very nice lady's face at a publishing event when she asked what my husband did for a living, and I explained that I wasn't married.
"Oh, but you live with your partner though, right?"
"No I mean...I'm, like, suuuuuper single, I live alone."
"Oh my god, you mean you...live off of this job??"
For the entire rest of the event she could not decide whether she was horrified or impressed. But at least it finally helped me figure out why all of my coworkers had extremely nice apartments while I lived in a shoebox across the (oddly, literal) tracks.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 9:57 AM on May 19, 2021 [61 favorites]
Publishing, too, although in my less-glamorous niche of it there's less Parent Money and more Spouse Money. I will never forget the look of pure drawn horror that came over one very nice lady's face at a publishing event when she asked what my husband did for a living, and I explained that I wasn't married.
"Oh, but you live with your partner though, right?"
"No I mean...I'm, like, suuuuuper single, I live alone."
"Oh my god, you mean you...live off of this job??"
For the entire rest of the event she could not decide whether she was horrified or impressed. But at least it finally helped me figure out why all of my coworkers had extremely nice apartments while I lived in a shoebox across the (oddly, literal) tracks.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 9:57 AM on May 19, 2021 [61 favorites]
Oh, I also forgot that after I was fired for vaguetweeting about work, the company tried to screw me out of unemployment by providing New York DoL with misdated screenshots of my posts. When I appealed, the bastards didn't even show up to the hearing, and so I was able to provide the judge with documentation of other posts I made around the same time to confirm that the company lied.
posted by SansPoint at 9:58 AM on May 19, 2021 [8 favorites]
posted by SansPoint at 9:58 AM on May 19, 2021 [8 favorites]
My company rented me an apartment because I was a foreigner, so I asked for the $800 studio a block away from the office and walked every day. Everyone else lived in Santa Monica or wherever and drove an Audi or BWM or Escalade or Lexus. I had an argument with a co-worker (who had married into a multi-hundred-million-dollar fortune) about whether burning a dollar bill was a waste, regardless of how many of them you have.
I'm no longer poor, but I'd prefer to keep my poverty mentality, thanks.
posted by klanawa at 9:59 AM on May 19, 2021 [22 favorites]
I'm no longer poor, but I'd prefer to keep my poverty mentality, thanks.
posted by klanawa at 9:59 AM on May 19, 2021 [22 favorites]
Every time I get a raise or a bonus, my manager always asks how I feel about it, I think because I'm expected to lobby for more money. I've tried to explaining to him that I still have whiplash from my first job post-PhD where my income quadrupled overnight and I make "big tech" money now and my income just does. not. compute. And then I think about the lost earnings over a lifetime coming from not having the right socialization to be equipped for the tech industry, and I'm someone who grew up upper middle class (albeit raised by a parent for whom Marxism was the way to understand the workplace, and Marx very much did not anticipate the tech industry) with a brother who did go to the right schools, etc and knows how to play the game so explains it to me.
posted by hoyland at 10:10 AM on May 19, 2021 [8 favorites]
posted by hoyland at 10:10 AM on May 19, 2021 [8 favorites]
Another poor-person-in-a-bank here - for a couple years I was the assistant to 5 dudes in the Equities branch of a bank. One of my bosses had to travel for business and asked me to make the reservations. I found that all five of the hotel options were pretty much equidistant from the meeting, so I asked if he had a preference. All five options were also all five-star luxury hotels. My boss just mused a moment about how he wasn't sure what the difference was - and then turned to me. "What do you think? Where would you stay?"
I hesitated, then just said, "um.....sir, to be perfectly honest, when I travel my budget will usually only cover things like Youth Hostels."
He thought this was hysterically funny and for the rest of the time he was at the bank he called me "the backpacker hippie".
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:11 AM on May 19, 2021 [31 favorites]
I hesitated, then just said, "um.....sir, to be perfectly honest, when I travel my budget will usually only cover things like Youth Hostels."
He thought this was hysterically funny and for the rest of the time he was at the bank he called me "the backpacker hippie".
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:11 AM on May 19, 2021 [31 favorites]
(I got the last laugh against that guy, though - he got laid off about a half a year later, and I later learned that the dude he went to see on that business trip got brought up on SEC charges, so there)
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:12 AM on May 19, 2021 [37 favorites]
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:12 AM on May 19, 2021 [37 favorites]
One of the most obvious examples of this in academia to me was the default assumption of senior people and conference organizers that of course everyone had learned to ski as a child and would be interested in renting gear and buying lift tickets for a cool $500 a day.
posted by threementholsandafuneral at 10:44 AM on May 19, 2021 [12 favorites]
posted by threementholsandafuneral at 10:44 AM on May 19, 2021 [12 favorites]
My worst experience like this was at a non-profit in Toronto. Everyone over director level made quite a lot of money, everyone under director was just scraping by. Leadership was fond of forcing conversation topics to revolve around real estate (only the very wealthy or very fortunate can afford real estate in this city), their vacation homes, travel, cars, and investment portfolios. It was absolutely obnoxious. The wealth gap was also reflected in how employees were treated.
I work in finance now with multi-millionaires and oddly they're much more tactful and (overtly) fair.
posted by Stoof at 10:48 AM on May 19, 2021 [6 favorites]
I work in finance now with multi-millionaires and oddly they're much more tactful and (overtly) fair.
posted by Stoof at 10:48 AM on May 19, 2021 [6 favorites]
Isn’t everyone broke in their first job out of undergrad?
posted by Ideefixe at 10:49 AM on May 19, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by Ideefixe at 10:49 AM on May 19, 2021 [1 favorite]
I remember when "startup" meant that the company didn't know how to make money yet and had a persistent fear of going insolvent. Now it seems to mean a company with lots of hype and more VC money than sense.
posted by meowzilla at 10:51 AM on May 19, 2021 [25 favorites]
posted by meowzilla at 10:51 AM on May 19, 2021 [25 favorites]
> Isn’t everyone broke in their first job out of undergrad?
There's a limit to how "broke" you can be when the Bank of Your Parents can just drop $10,000 into your account without sweating it should you be unable to afford your cell phone bill this month.
posted by threementholsandafuneral at 10:53 AM on May 19, 2021 [26 favorites]
There's a limit to how "broke" you can be when the Bank of Your Parents can just drop $10,000 into your account without sweating it should you be unable to afford your cell phone bill this month.
posted by threementholsandafuneral at 10:53 AM on May 19, 2021 [26 favorites]
Yeah “broke” and “poor” are different. I’ve been broke and it sucked, but I don’t think it’s fairly comparable to poverty.
posted by migurski at 10:56 AM on May 19, 2021 [33 favorites]
posted by migurski at 10:56 AM on May 19, 2021 [33 favorites]
I guess one nice thing about working in a public library is that it's probable that your coworkers are, like you, also living kind of lean. Side jobs, student loans, payday marked on the ref desk calendar for all to see, nobody goes to Greece for a long weekend. There are different levels of lean, but in general we're good at sharing.
And, the best of all: If a meeting room group leaves catered food behind, ( which they often will, just sitting out for Someone Else to clean) a staff member will bring it to the staffroom. An all-staff email will go out and within seconds you can hear footsteps running through the halls. It's a free food jubilee!!
posted by Gray Duck at 11:00 AM on May 19, 2021 [16 favorites]
And, the best of all: If a meeting room group leaves catered food behind, ( which they often will, just sitting out for Someone Else to clean) a staff member will bring it to the staffroom. An all-staff email will go out and within seconds you can hear footsteps running through the halls. It's a free food jubilee!!
posted by Gray Duck at 11:00 AM on May 19, 2021 [16 favorites]
One of the vice presidents proudly told us how he hired someone to assemble his model railway.
Hey, can you do me a favor and hand him my resume?
posted by 2N2222 at 11:01 AM on May 19, 2021 [19 favorites]
Hey, can you do me a favor and hand him my resume?
posted by 2N2222 at 11:01 AM on May 19, 2021 [19 favorites]
Yup. Broke is a temporary financial situation. Poor is a status and cycle that is often overlooked in America as a status (and often just shrugged off as someone who is broke; poor folks and broke folks have wildly different support structures in their lives). It is also possible to be broke not poor, and poor not broke.
posted by furnace.heart at 11:02 AM on May 19, 2021 [23 favorites]
posted by furnace.heart at 11:02 AM on May 19, 2021 [23 favorites]
"Bank VP" is a joke title they give to tellers. His train probably doesn't even use real steam.
posted by ryanrs at 11:07 AM on May 19, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by ryanrs at 11:07 AM on May 19, 2021 [3 favorites]
Isn’t everyone broke in their first job out of undergrad?
My first real job even before undergrad (i.e. in the summer between the end of high school and the beginning of university) was absurdly well-paid: it was the mid-eighties, right at the end of the baby boom years of entering the work force -- I guess the youngest boomers would be about 21 or so at the time. Anyway, I was there for just two months but my pay, if scaled up to an entire year and adjusted for inflation to 2021 dollars, was around $100,00 per year. It was no wonder a lot of my fellow summer students decided heck with school and just went to work there full time.
Of course, by the time I had finished university, I was working in a rep cinema for minimum wage, so maybe.
I recall around that time reading about a proposed transit strike and noting that bus drivers made about five times what I did and were holding out for six times what I made. I noted then that while I supported their strike, my sympathy for them was finite.
Just this week, a local news story deals with the legal blowback from a case last fall where police charged the owner of a $10-million mansion with operating an illegal casino in it. The owner's lawyer now countercharges that the police planted evidence and also stole some of his personal belongings when searching the house:
posted by ricochet biscuit at 11:38 AM on May 19, 2021 [3 favorites]
My first real job even before undergrad (i.e. in the summer between the end of high school and the beginning of university) was absurdly well-paid: it was the mid-eighties, right at the end of the baby boom years of entering the work force -- I guess the youngest boomers would be about 21 or so at the time. Anyway, I was there for just two months but my pay, if scaled up to an entire year and adjusted for inflation to 2021 dollars, was around $100,00 per year. It was no wonder a lot of my fellow summer students decided heck with school and just went to work there full time.
Of course, by the time I had finished university, I was working in a rep cinema for minimum wage, so maybe.
I recall around that time reading about a proposed transit strike and noting that bus drivers made about five times what I did and were holding out for six times what I made. I noted then that while I supported their strike, my sympathy for them was finite.
Just this week, a local news story deals with the legal blowback from a case last fall where police charged the owner of a $10-million mansion with operating an illegal casino in it. The owner's lawyer now countercharges that the police planted evidence and also stole some of his personal belongings when searching the house:
“Members of the YRP (York Regional Police) appear to have stolen two watches belonging to Mr. Wei valued at approximately $450,000,”While I believe dirty cops exist, I have -- again -- limited sympathy for someone who decides to buy a watch for ~$225,000, and then buys another one.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 11:38 AM on May 19, 2021 [3 favorites]
In theory programming should be a class-blind activity . .
Being able to afford a computer with an internet connection while you're growing up sure isn't.
posted by mhoye at 11:43 AM on May 19, 2021 [6 favorites]
Being able to afford a computer with an internet connection while you're growing up sure isn't.
posted by mhoye at 11:43 AM on May 19, 2021 [6 favorites]
These two stories Blackk and the post are wonderful contrast.
posted by The_Vegetables at 11:43 AM on May 19, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by The_Vegetables at 11:43 AM on May 19, 2021 [1 favorite]
I had an argument with a co-worker (who had married into a multi-hundred-million-dollar fortune) about whether burning a dollar bill was a waste, regardless of how many of them you have.
A lot of said people will be extremely aware of the value of a dollar when "the government is trying to steal it", though.
posted by trig at 11:47 AM on May 19, 2021 [9 favorites]
A lot of said people will be extremely aware of the value of a dollar when "the government is trying to steal it", though.
posted by trig at 11:47 AM on May 19, 2021 [9 favorites]
Give it a little while. She'll find that those people are not actually as rich as they are pretending to be.
posted by Cardinal Fang at 11:47 AM on May 19, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by Cardinal Fang at 11:47 AM on May 19, 2021 [2 favorites]
I lived on Market Street, in San Francisco, from 1987 through 1995, and I paid $500 a month for a studio apartment in a weird shaped building right across the street from the Safeway at Duboce Triangle and I loved it.
I was so clueless as to what was just on the horizon.
I hung out at various coffee houses and was one of the early members of the SFNet bulletin board system.
The internet was just a little baby at the time, and I think I got out just in time, because life would have been such a struggle, such a harrowing experience, such a soul killer, that I don't think I would have made it.
Period.
posted by Bill Watches Movies Podcast at 11:49 AM on May 19, 2021 [5 favorites]
I was so clueless as to what was just on the horizon.
I hung out at various coffee houses and was one of the early members of the SFNet bulletin board system.
The internet was just a little baby at the time, and I think I got out just in time, because life would have been such a struggle, such a harrowing experience, such a soul killer, that I don't think I would have made it.
Period.
posted by Bill Watches Movies Podcast at 11:49 AM on May 19, 2021 [5 favorites]
Being rich is wasted on the rich.
posted by allegedly at 11:50 AM on May 19, 2021 [21 favorites]
posted by allegedly at 11:50 AM on May 19, 2021 [21 favorites]
Man that person grew up solidly middle class but doesn't want to admit it
Being poor in Canada and the US aren't quite the same experience, from what I understand. Growing up with a single parent on social assistance is a very very different upbringing from a typical middle class family here, even if it may not be considered poor by Americans.
posted by randomnity at 11:51 AM on May 19, 2021 [1 favorite]
Being poor in Canada and the US aren't quite the same experience, from what I understand. Growing up with a single parent on social assistance is a very very different upbringing from a typical middle class family here, even if it may not be considered poor by Americans.
posted by randomnity at 11:51 AM on May 19, 2021 [1 favorite]
Isn’t everyone broke in their first job out of undergrad?
Facebook pays its interns nearly double what the typical American makes
posted by meowzilla at 11:58 AM on May 19, 2021 [3 favorites]
Facebook pays its interns nearly double what the typical American makes
posted by meowzilla at 11:58 AM on May 19, 2021 [3 favorites]
This essay is great for many reasons, but I want to highlight this part
Mostly it's a reminder that employers are often shitty and exploit their employees. Even the rich tech places.
posted by Nelson at 12:00 PM on May 19, 2021 [26 favorites]
I discovered through misadventure that I still made less than any of the executive assistants, or the receptionist. I was, in fact, the lowest-paid person in the building including the interns.Here she is in a tech job; she's made it! She won't be poor any more! But because of her history of being poor she's still being undervalued and underpaid. I've heard versions of this story a bunch of times. It's a great argument for salaries being public info at companies. Also for having mentors who can help you understand your value and get compensated accordingly.
Mostly it's a reminder that employers are often shitty and exploit their employees. Even the rich tech places.
posted by Nelson at 12:00 PM on May 19, 2021 [26 favorites]
Being rich is wasted on the rich.
Not saying this to invoke sympathy, but more of an observation: I seem to be able to tell how unhappy wealthy people are with their lives, on the whole, by what they do with their wealth.
Money seems to help cultural and economic conservatives, particularly, act out their internal existential miseries upon others, but I don't see many rich people who are actually enjoying the many freedoms their situation provides.
If anything, it seems to be a massive source of anxiety for those who have it, as much as for those who don't. How to keep and grow the pile, even in the face of an increasingly uncertain future for humanity, where social collapse would eliminate most, if not all valuations of paper wealth, altogether.
Not taking away anything from the OP. I also notice a difference in who says hello to the janitors, and who doesn't. Tech isn't the only place where visibility is based on your income and upbringing.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 12:02 PM on May 19, 2021 [3 favorites]
Not saying this to invoke sympathy, but more of an observation: I seem to be able to tell how unhappy wealthy people are with their lives, on the whole, by what they do with their wealth.
Money seems to help cultural and economic conservatives, particularly, act out their internal existential miseries upon others, but I don't see many rich people who are actually enjoying the many freedoms their situation provides.
If anything, it seems to be a massive source of anxiety for those who have it, as much as for those who don't. How to keep and grow the pile, even in the face of an increasingly uncertain future for humanity, where social collapse would eliminate most, if not all valuations of paper wealth, altogether.
Not taking away anything from the OP. I also notice a difference in who says hello to the janitors, and who doesn't. Tech isn't the only place where visibility is based on your income and upbringing.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 12:02 PM on May 19, 2021 [3 favorites]
There's a reason that despite having worked my entire career in tech, I refuse to Relocate To The Bay Area and avoid startups in general. It significantly improves my chances of working with halfway normal people who are doing a job and treat each other like grownups rather than, well, this.
Isn’t everyone broke in their first job out of undergrad?
If you come from the right background, and have a career that pays entry-level folks well, no.
I had a very small student loan (my parents paid for the bulk of my education at a highly regarded state-affiliated university where I got a Computer Science degree) and a modest car loan. I got a solid entry-level developer job that paid the equivalent of $61,000 in today's dollars. This was not even a particularly high salary; I did not know how to negotiate at the time, nor was the position particularly competitive or demanding. And I still made, back then, more than a lot of highly qualified, educated, and capable people do today.
I have never been broke in my life. I guess I couldn't buy as many fancy toys as I wanted? But I had legitimately poor friends growing up, and most of my social circle right after graduation made a fraction of what I did, so I was at least never under the illusion that I was actually impoverished or even temporarily broke.
posted by Tomorrowful at 12:03 PM on May 19, 2021 [5 favorites]
Isn’t everyone broke in their first job out of undergrad?
If you come from the right background, and have a career that pays entry-level folks well, no.
I had a very small student loan (my parents paid for the bulk of my education at a highly regarded state-affiliated university where I got a Computer Science degree) and a modest car loan. I got a solid entry-level developer job that paid the equivalent of $61,000 in today's dollars. This was not even a particularly high salary; I did not know how to negotiate at the time, nor was the position particularly competitive or demanding. And I still made, back then, more than a lot of highly qualified, educated, and capable people do today.
I have never been broke in my life. I guess I couldn't buy as many fancy toys as I wanted? But I had legitimately poor friends growing up, and most of my social circle right after graduation made a fraction of what I did, so I was at least never under the illusion that I was actually impoverished or even temporarily broke.
posted by Tomorrowful at 12:03 PM on May 19, 2021 [5 favorites]
Isn’t everyone broke in their first job out of undergrad?
to this day, i still remember the confusion i had when i learned one of my friends who was just as broke as i was had their apartment paid in part by their parents.
mine was not. indeed, i was sending a portion of my paycheck to my parents each month instead.
so no, not everyone is the same broke right out of undergrad, or even in undergrad.
posted by i used to be someone else at 12:10 PM on May 19, 2021 [15 favorites]
to this day, i still remember the confusion i had when i learned one of my friends who was just as broke as i was had their apartment paid in part by their parents.
mine was not. indeed, i was sending a portion of my paycheck to my parents each month instead.
so no, not everyone is the same broke right out of undergrad, or even in undergrad.
posted by i used to be someone else at 12:10 PM on May 19, 2021 [15 favorites]
It is very tough to think and talk about money in a useful way in public settings, and to do so in a way that is compassionate for everyone. The word "sympathy" has come up here and it reminds me of this piece by siderea on solidarity; her piece helps remind me of the dangers of thinking about inequality in terms of whether a particular high earner, today, is or is not deserving -- including executive compensation.
posted by brainwane at 12:16 PM on May 19, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by brainwane at 12:16 PM on May 19, 2021 [1 favorite]
I was totally broke after I got fired from my stopgap job at Subway during the year between my undergrad and my masters and wasn't able to find another job, but my parents were able to lend me a bit of money and if things had gotten really tough I could have moved back in with them for a while, so in no way was I poor. Someone who was truly poor could have been at risk of homelessness in my situation. And the parents of some of the "brokest" kids I knew at university were high-level bank executives, lawyers, etc..
posted by The Card Cheat at 12:21 PM on May 19, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by The Card Cheat at 12:21 PM on May 19, 2021 [1 favorite]
In addition to the ones about not punching a time-clock, and not having to file paperwork for vacation pay, is the process involved with taking sick days. Just send a simple "I'm feeling under the weather today" email to your boss/team, and then just... take the day off? There's no doctor's note to produce later, and probably have a really decent health insurance plan if you do get ill. (And a dental plan, for that matter.)
Also, no drug testing. Ever.
As far as accessibility, coding bootcamps are an imperfect solution, but they're way more accessible than 4 years of university, and not working a full-time job during those 4 years.
posted by fragmede at 12:58 PM on May 19, 2021 [7 favorites]
Also, no drug testing. Ever.
As far as accessibility, coding bootcamps are an imperfect solution, but they're way more accessible than 4 years of university, and not working a full-time job during those 4 years.
posted by fragmede at 12:58 PM on May 19, 2021 [7 favorites]
Another huge thing I forgot to mention was the times I had to travel for work. The booking system took care of the flight, but I was expected to front the money for the week-long hotel stay, and I'd get reimbursed later. Everyone I mentioned this to said some variation of "I love it! I get so many points on my travel card!" I remember the humiliation of having to explain to my manager and his manager that no, I did not have a credit card with $1500 available, and could I somehow book the hotel on the company card. I ended up having to email someone from finance and specifically say that I had "financial hardship" and ask that they pay in advance for my hotel room. I had to do that every single time I traveled for several years.
posted by sleeping bear at 1:10 PM on May 19, 2021 [43 favorites]
posted by sleeping bear at 1:10 PM on May 19, 2021 [43 favorites]
I'd also make sure to get the (reimbursed after the fact, approved by our per diem) travel dinners with someone senior to me so they could pay for it on their credit card and submit the reimbursement, since all my cards were maxed or overdrafted.
posted by sleeping bear at 1:11 PM on May 19, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by sleeping bear at 1:11 PM on May 19, 2021 [3 favorites]
Oooooh. This has been me so many times. I've transitioned from poor to broke to doing OK, and I know how lucky I am to have been able to do so. Yes, I've worked hard, tried to make smart choices, but the truth is, the breaks still have to go your way and for a lot of people, just simply don't. I've heard co-workers talking about where they went out to eat last weekend and the bills for those places are eye-popping, like I can't even comprehend spending that much money for two people to just have a dinner when it could cover several of my bills for the month. They spend money on vacations that would pay my house payment for half a year or more. They spend money on RVs, boats, and cars that cost more than a lot of homes. A former boss who had a heart of gold, but a lack of understanding what it was like to not have a lot of money to spend, couldn't comprehend that my car didn't have AC. Why didn't I get it fixed? Well, because it would cost me two paychecks to do that. When they start talking about stuff like that, I've always had to leave the room. I actually have enough money now that I can afford to spend some on things and go out and do things, but the poverty mindset simply does not go away.
Spencer Hall, who is a gifted writer and you should read his stuff when you see it go by, even if much is sports related, put it in such a way where I read this and said "That's exactly what I haven't been able to put into words" with this:
Note: I can't explain what it is, but something in you, once you're convinced of your own brokeness, believes in nothing but that. I didn't have a fraction of what real, survival-level, street poverty inflicted on people — the real physical danger, the effects on health and cognitive development, the lifelong scars — but I did and always will have the sense of being completely alien from the concept of security, of stability, of deserving anything.
Even a touch of it is toxic. I still don't swipe an ATM card without being relieved when it goes through. I didn't buy a decent piece of furniture until this year, and I turn 40 next year. I still panic every time the gas gauge tells me I'm low on gas, because a part of me still wonders whether I have enough money in the bank to fill up my tank. I probably do now — probably — but the instinct is still there. It's a fire in your brain that never really goes out, but just has varying, constant degrees of smolder. It's the bell that never stops going off. For most of my adult life, I've been convinced I'll be working at a Wendy's next week.
posted by azpenguin at 1:12 PM on May 19, 2021 [20 favorites]
Spencer Hall, who is a gifted writer and you should read his stuff when you see it go by, even if much is sports related, put it in such a way where I read this and said "That's exactly what I haven't been able to put into words" with this:
Note: I can't explain what it is, but something in you, once you're convinced of your own brokeness, believes in nothing but that. I didn't have a fraction of what real, survival-level, street poverty inflicted on people — the real physical danger, the effects on health and cognitive development, the lifelong scars — but I did and always will have the sense of being completely alien from the concept of security, of stability, of deserving anything.
Even a touch of it is toxic. I still don't swipe an ATM card without being relieved when it goes through. I didn't buy a decent piece of furniture until this year, and I turn 40 next year. I still panic every time the gas gauge tells me I'm low on gas, because a part of me still wonders whether I have enough money in the bank to fill up my tank. I probably do now — probably — but the instinct is still there. It's a fire in your brain that never really goes out, but just has varying, constant degrees of smolder. It's the bell that never stops going off. For most of my adult life, I've been convinced I'll be working at a Wendy's next week.
posted by azpenguin at 1:12 PM on May 19, 2021 [20 favorites]
I worked for a company that made employees put travel expenses on their personal credit cards once - luckily it was not a burden for me although other employees did have to do stuff like get a cheque cut for the hotel before they left as they were unable or unwilling to float the company. At one point I think we estimated the company had a free $50K line of credit given to it by its own employees (unwillingly).
What's unfortunate is that some of us knew this was just bad management but if you grew up without that sort of knowledge about how personal or company finances work you can easily internalize the issue and think that you as a person are the one who is doing something wrong because you don't have a lot of credit. Which is very much not the case. Even people with a ton of personal credit should not routinely float the company $10K in travel expenses.
posted by GuyZero at 1:15 PM on May 19, 2021 [14 favorites]
What's unfortunate is that some of us knew this was just bad management but if you grew up without that sort of knowledge about how personal or company finances work you can easily internalize the issue and think that you as a person are the one who is doing something wrong because you don't have a lot of credit. Which is very much not the case. Even people with a ton of personal credit should not routinely float the company $10K in travel expenses.
posted by GuyZero at 1:15 PM on May 19, 2021 [14 favorites]
GuyZero: That was exactly why I wound up having to skip a client event I helped plan in San Francisco during my startup days. The company didn't want to spring for my flight and I couldn't swing tickets on my own.
posted by SansPoint at 1:19 PM on May 19, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by SansPoint at 1:19 PM on May 19, 2021 [2 favorites]
I worked for a company that made employees put travel expenses on their personal credit cards once - luckily it was not a burden for me although other employees did have to do stuff like get a cheque cut for the hotel before they left as they were unable or unwilling to float the company. At one point I think we estimated the company had a free $50K line of credit given to it by its own employees (unwillingly).
This is not at all unusual, though the response to it is perhaps another poor/not-poor marker.
When our company finally got people company cards a lot of folks--and not just senior ones--were disappointed to lose their chance to rack up miles and other rewards during company dinners or travel.
posted by mark k at 1:21 PM on May 19, 2021 [3 favorites]
This is not at all unusual, though the response to it is perhaps another poor/not-poor marker.
When our company finally got people company cards a lot of folks--and not just senior ones--were disappointed to lose their chance to rack up miles and other rewards during company dinners or travel.
posted by mark k at 1:21 PM on May 19, 2021 [3 favorites]
The large company where my father worked explicitly prohibited employees from racking up any sort of points from credit card charges for company expenses to explicitly prevent that conflict of interest. It seems like it would be hard (impossible?) to enforce, but tell people they're getting paid net 60 on charges they put on their own credit card and the objections disappear pretty fast.
I'm personally all for letting people pay for business expenses however they want to, but that sadly opens the door for some abuse.
posted by GuyZero at 1:27 PM on May 19, 2021
I'm personally all for letting people pay for business expenses however they want to, but that sadly opens the door for some abuse.
posted by GuyZero at 1:27 PM on May 19, 2021
That was exactly why I wound up having to skip a client event I helped plan in San Francisco during my startup days. The company didn't want to spring for my flight and I couldn't swing tickets on my own.
That sucks. In my case this was a company that did developer training so it wasn't even optional travel! The company put itself in this stupid position where if you refused to charge travel on your own card that they suddenly had sold a class and had no way to get the instructor there!
Like I said, bad management.
posted by GuyZero at 1:29 PM on May 19, 2021 [2 favorites]
That sucks. In my case this was a company that did developer training so it wasn't even optional travel! The company put itself in this stupid position where if you refused to charge travel on your own card that they suddenly had sold a class and had no way to get the instructor there!
Like I said, bad management.
posted by GuyZero at 1:29 PM on May 19, 2021 [2 favorites]
I knew I was the only poor person at my tech startup because I was the only person who would say hello to the cleaning lady as she meekly made her rounds around us when we worked late. Everyone else had a long habit of ignoring anyone like her.
Discomfort with staff is, in my experience, very much a middle-class American thing. Friends of mine who grew up poor look at janitorial staff and see their family members, so they treat the cleaning lady with politeness. But it's also an Old Money thing to say hello to staff and know the name of the person who empties your particular trash can, because it's a sign you grew up with housekeepers and drivers and gardeners and personal assistants and secretaries as """"part of the family""""".
It's the stretch of American society in between that doesn't know what to do, because they didn't grow up knowing anybody who works on a cleaning crew or having had cleaners since childhood. I include New Money Rich People in this, because a lot of them grew up middle class or upper-middle and struck a jackpot through career luck. In addition, a lot of middle-class Americans get very, very uncomfortable when faced even in slight ways with reminders of the matched lies of "America doesn't have a class system" and, also, "if you're smart and work hard, you will be middle class, if not rich."
(No, not all old money rich people are polite to staff; it is perfectly possible to say hello to the cleaning lady and still treat her like absolute shit; race and ethnicity and cultural background and individual circumstances come into play. For example, I know people who grew up poor and have learned not to be particularly polite to staff, because it's a sign of Moving Into the Middle Class. Humanity is a spectrum, etc.)
posted by joyceanmachine at 1:33 PM on May 19, 2021 [17 favorites]
Discomfort with staff is, in my experience, very much a middle-class American thing. Friends of mine who grew up poor look at janitorial staff and see their family members, so they treat the cleaning lady with politeness. But it's also an Old Money thing to say hello to staff and know the name of the person who empties your particular trash can, because it's a sign you grew up with housekeepers and drivers and gardeners and personal assistants and secretaries as """"part of the family""""".
It's the stretch of American society in between that doesn't know what to do, because they didn't grow up knowing anybody who works on a cleaning crew or having had cleaners since childhood. I include New Money Rich People in this, because a lot of them grew up middle class or upper-middle and struck a jackpot through career luck. In addition, a lot of middle-class Americans get very, very uncomfortable when faced even in slight ways with reminders of the matched lies of "America doesn't have a class system" and, also, "if you're smart and work hard, you will be middle class, if not rich."
(No, not all old money rich people are polite to staff; it is perfectly possible to say hello to the cleaning lady and still treat her like absolute shit; race and ethnicity and cultural background and individual circumstances come into play. For example, I know people who grew up poor and have learned not to be particularly polite to staff, because it's a sign of Moving Into the Middle Class. Humanity is a spectrum, etc.)
posted by joyceanmachine at 1:33 PM on May 19, 2021 [17 favorites]
In theory programming should be a class-blind activity . .
Being able to afford a computer with an internet connection while you're growing up sure isn't.
Funny story: the job I'm referring to above I got because a friend of mine who I only knew through coding forums, out of the blue, sent me a laptop that was reasonably powerful but had an overheating problem. Up until that point, I'd been trying to learn on an old piece of crap that couldn't do anything. I learned enough of my craft using the "new" machine to get the job, save up money and go to university.
Yes, a single gift of what would otherwise be considered garbage made the difference between my eventual entry into the middle class and continuing poverty.
posted by klanawa at 2:03 PM on May 19, 2021 [15 favorites]
Being able to afford a computer with an internet connection while you're growing up sure isn't.
Funny story: the job I'm referring to above I got because a friend of mine who I only knew through coding forums, out of the blue, sent me a laptop that was reasonably powerful but had an overheating problem. Up until that point, I'd been trying to learn on an old piece of crap that couldn't do anything. I learned enough of my craft using the "new" machine to get the job, save up money and go to university.
Yes, a single gift of what would otherwise be considered garbage made the difference between my eventual entry into the middle class and continuing poverty.
posted by klanawa at 2:03 PM on May 19, 2021 [15 favorites]
All of the authors insights were absolutely apt, having worked in tech during the first dotcom boom/bust (as well as now) there were two items that resonated for me:
- Having worked retail. This is a big one, many folks in the tech field never have had a customer facing job, or if they have, it was working at the ice cream shop with their friends one summer. But relying on your shitty 9-5 as the primary source of income? Fairly rare.
- (As an aside, I would point to this as one of the major reasons that so many websites and apps fail at User Experience. IMO, working in retail gives you a level of literal experience with customers that can come in very handy when designing digital products. Many of the decision makers in tech have simply never had that exposure to reality.)
- Paycheck schedules. If you are paid weekly, you know that 12 (months) doesn't divide into 52 (weeks) evenly. Therefore, there are going to be a few months where you are going to get 5 paychecks a month instead of 4. Anyone on a tight budget absolutely knows what months those are and probably has planned things like paying the rent or making a purchase based on that schedule. The anecdote about the guy who didn't notice his 3 checks weren't deposited because his direct deposit wasn't connected properly? Yeah, must be nice.
" I remember the humiliation of having to explain to my manager and his manager that no, I did not have a credit card with $1500 available, and could I somehow book the hotel on the company card.
I'm a peon assistant and normally work conferences are a thing that are just Not Done for the likes of me. However, I had one nice manager who encouraged me to go to them. I did not go for two reasons: (a) the rest of the team hated my guts, and (b) this. I didn't get a credit card in college and didn't do it until I was over 30 because I wanted to be financially prudent (MISTAKE) and I couldn't rack up a few thousand on my credit card for flying to Florida, plus hotel, plus trip to Harry Potter Land and all that jazz they were doing. And then deal with that for however many months they took to reimburse me. I was extremely careful when I went to recreational conferences on my own, and that's just within my end of the state so I don't have to fly to them.
posted by jenfullmoon at 2:29 PM on May 19, 2021
I'm a peon assistant and normally work conferences are a thing that are just Not Done for the likes of me. However, I had one nice manager who encouraged me to go to them. I did not go for two reasons: (a) the rest of the team hated my guts, and (b) this. I didn't get a credit card in college and didn't do it until I was over 30 because I wanted to be financially prudent (MISTAKE) and I couldn't rack up a few thousand on my credit card for flying to Florida, plus hotel, plus trip to Harry Potter Land and all that jazz they were doing. And then deal with that for however many months they took to reimburse me. I was extremely careful when I went to recreational conferences on my own, and that's just within my end of the state so I don't have to fly to them.
posted by jenfullmoon at 2:29 PM on May 19, 2021
Our company got acquired and we switched from bimonthly paychecks to every-two-weeks and there was an immediate disconnect between the people who were saying it's no big deal and the people who had to now recalculate their budgets.
posted by sleeping bear at 2:33 PM on May 19, 2021 [7 favorites]
posted by sleeping bear at 2:33 PM on May 19, 2021 [7 favorites]
Being able to afford a computer with an internet connection while you're growing up sure isn't.
Yes, which I addressed in the rest of my comment.
posted by Anonymous at 2:49 PM on May 19, 2021
Yes, which I addressed in the rest of my comment.
posted by Anonymous at 2:49 PM on May 19, 2021
It's the bell that never stops going off. For most of my adult life, I've been convinced I'll be working at a Wendy's next week.
Yeah, I often feel like it wouldn't take much for me to be on the scrapheap. Brought up very working class in what is now post-industrial England, in the supposed boom, but very high unemployment days of Thatcher. I'm a fairly senior academic now, long-term job, good uni. Spend a lot of my time worried I could go in a clear out, etc at my place. Even when i can see the data suggesting my research income record is way above average for the dept, still somewhat paranoid about it.
posted by biffa at 3:03 PM on May 19, 2021 [3 favorites]
Yeah, I often feel like it wouldn't take much for me to be on the scrapheap. Brought up very working class in what is now post-industrial England, in the supposed boom, but very high unemployment days of Thatcher. I'm a fairly senior academic now, long-term job, good uni. Spend a lot of my time worried I could go in a clear out, etc at my place. Even when i can see the data suggesting my research income record is way above average for the dept, still somewhat paranoid about it.
posted by biffa at 3:03 PM on May 19, 2021 [3 favorites]
When I moved to the US I came with almost nothing to the Bay Area (but granted had a pretty ok paying job to walk into). My company put me up in a corporate apartment for a few weeks about 7 miles away to downtown San Jose were I was working. Couple of days before I started I was going to move in, and had to go in and see HR to do some immigration verification etc. I asked the HR rep if she new which bus lines or light rail would run out that way to the apartment (slinging the hiking backpack with almost ll my belongings over my shoulder). The pure look of horror as it dawned on her that I didn't own a car (and wouldn't for several months). "oh......oh......no....I.....I don't think anyone takes public transport...I wouldn't advise that at all.....oh....you really need a car.....I think we have some good deals for leasing cars through Infiniti or BMW I can print off for you". So second hand 10 year old VW Jetta it was then. Miss that car - gave it away for free to a friend the first time I left the US.
posted by inflatablekiwi at 3:51 PM on May 19, 2021 [10 favorites]
posted by inflatablekiwi at 3:51 PM on May 19, 2021 [10 favorites]
I can't pass a "Help Wanted" sign without thinking to myself, "Good to know, just in case." The poverty mindset is entrenched.
I remember at one job, one of the partners asked me for suggestions for holiday gifts to other firms' partners. They had been giving wine selected from some something-something vineyard, but they wanted some fresh ideas. I felt like I was being hazed -- surely it was obvious that someone at my low-level pink-collar job wouldn't know what was appropriate under the circumstances, was my boss trying to "out" me? I think I said something about continuing along with an "artisanal food" theme. They stuck to wine. That was the same firm whose other partner griped to me that the receptionist was out-of-bounds for asking for a raise in the form of a greater subsidy for a monthly bus pass. I think she just wanted an extra $20/month. The transportation allowance wasn't enough to cover the pass, and the partner was livid when I pointed that out. I used the allowance to buy bus tickets, and walked the other days. That wasn't an option for the receptionist who lived 2 counties away in order to afford rent for her and her daughter.
posted by stowaway at 3:54 PM on May 19, 2021 [6 favorites]
I remember at one job, one of the partners asked me for suggestions for holiday gifts to other firms' partners. They had been giving wine selected from some something-something vineyard, but they wanted some fresh ideas. I felt like I was being hazed -- surely it was obvious that someone at my low-level pink-collar job wouldn't know what was appropriate under the circumstances, was my boss trying to "out" me? I think I said something about continuing along with an "artisanal food" theme. They stuck to wine. That was the same firm whose other partner griped to me that the receptionist was out-of-bounds for asking for a raise in the form of a greater subsidy for a monthly bus pass. I think she just wanted an extra $20/month. The transportation allowance wasn't enough to cover the pass, and the partner was livid when I pointed that out. I used the allowance to buy bus tickets, and walked the other days. That wasn't an option for the receptionist who lived 2 counties away in order to afford rent for her and her daughter.
posted by stowaway at 3:54 PM on May 19, 2021 [6 favorites]
If this person was my co-worker I would probably like them and want to be their friend.
Also makes me glad to work in tech but almost as far away from silicon valley as possible. Pretty much everyone I've worked with is more like this person than her co-workers as described.
posted by thefool at 4:16 PM on May 19, 2021
Also makes me glad to work in tech but almost as far away from silicon valley as possible. Pretty much everyone I've worked with is more like this person than her co-workers as described.
posted by thefool at 4:16 PM on May 19, 2021
inflatablekiwi, that surprise about public transit isn’t limited to tech. In a past job I visited Miami-Dade County’s public transit agency for a series of meetings, and they had about the same reaction to our questions about bus options as the one you mentioned.
posted by migurski at 5:17 PM on May 19, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by migurski at 5:17 PM on May 19, 2021 [3 favorites]
I would have figured tech start-ups would have attracted more people from economically diverse backgrounds
Tech (and I think especially start ups and people who think of themselves as big fish) really expects employees to spend all their free time on keeping on the cutting edge. Contributing to open source.
Which is hard without the free time because you have a second job or are commuting across two counties.
posted by JawnBigboote at 6:15 PM on May 19, 2021 [2 favorites]
Tech (and I think especially start ups and people who think of themselves as big fish) really expects employees to spend all their free time on keeping on the cutting edge. Contributing to open source.
Which is hard without the free time because you have a second job or are commuting across two counties.
posted by JawnBigboote at 6:15 PM on May 19, 2021 [2 favorites]
The comments about academia run somewhat counter to my experience (R1, engineering) in which the culture from grad students to deans has been heavily influenced by the experiences of first-generation immigrants from developing countries.
I think this is particularly relevant to academic computer science.
posted by mr_roboto at 6:18 PM on May 19, 2021 [1 favorite]
I think this is particularly relevant to academic computer science.
posted by mr_roboto at 6:18 PM on May 19, 2021 [1 favorite]
I remember the humiliation of having to explain to my manager and his manager that no, I did not have a credit card with $1500 available, and could I somehow book the hotel on the company card. I ended up having to email someone from finance and specifically say that I had "financial hardship" and ask that they pay in advance for my hotel room. I had to do that every single time I traveled for several years.
There are any number of things I could complain about where I work, but one of the nicely humane things they do is issue just about everyone a company credit card. (In theory you are supposed to use that exclusively, rather than your own card to earn points, but there is rarely enforcement of that.) It means no one has to out themselves as having bad/no credit and puts people on a more even playing field.
Also, in the event that we fly in a job candidate for an interview, the company books the tickets, instead of making the person cover their expenses and then submit for reimbursement. Making a job candidate float the travel expenses has always seemed especially egregious to me. I mean, they are looking for a job! They need money!
posted by Dip Flash at 6:18 PM on May 19, 2021 [4 favorites]
There are any number of things I could complain about where I work, but one of the nicely humane things they do is issue just about everyone a company credit card. (In theory you are supposed to use that exclusively, rather than your own card to earn points, but there is rarely enforcement of that.) It means no one has to out themselves as having bad/no credit and puts people on a more even playing field.
Also, in the event that we fly in a job candidate for an interview, the company books the tickets, instead of making the person cover their expenses and then submit for reimbursement. Making a job candidate float the travel expenses has always seemed especially egregious to me. I mean, they are looking for a job! They need money!
posted by Dip Flash at 6:18 PM on May 19, 2021 [4 favorites]
I asked HR before my first vacation what paperwork I would need to do in order to receive vacation pay
Can someone explain this to me - why would you need paperwork for vacation pay?
posted by HiroProtagonist at 7:43 PM on May 19, 2021
Can someone explain this to me - why would you need paperwork for vacation pay?
posted by HiroProtagonist at 7:43 PM on May 19, 2021
When you’re hourly, if you don’t clock in/clock out, you don’t get paid. You have to do special things to make sure you get paid out when you’re taking your vacation but not clocking in and out.
posted by sleeping bear at 7:51 PM on May 19, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by sleeping bear at 7:51 PM on May 19, 2021 [2 favorites]
HiroProtagonist (love the reference btw!) - Because I have certain numbers of hours of vacation and sick pay, my employer tracks how many hours of either category that I take. Luckily, my employer is pretty informal on the pre-approvals so it’s just a matter of getting a verbal approval and then inputting it afterwards into an HR system that automatically routes up to the appropriate approvals. Some employers are much more formal about approvals beforehand, either because they need to balance workloads (like in a call center) or they’re controlling jerks about it.
posted by past unusual at 7:53 PM on May 19, 2021
posted by past unusual at 7:53 PM on May 19, 2021
Even while cognizant that I had, and have, an enormous amount of privilege, I experienced this kind of outsider experience throughout my time as a senior PhD student and postdoc on the job hunt. There was always something inaccessible about the class I was trying to break into, and this was amplified by the fact my spouse and I had our first child (on purpose, to the incredulity of my peers) near the end of my PhD. Our social experiences with financially secure 40-something parents at our daughter's preschool were uncomfortable at best. When I finally gave up trying to make it with this crowd and took an industry job, it was a huge weight off my shoulders. I can completely empathize with 20- and 30-somethings in tech who look around and wonder if any of this is for them, or ever will be.
posted by simra at 8:21 PM on May 19, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by simra at 8:21 PM on May 19, 2021 [1 favorite]
A huge part of me always wants to know WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE WHO IGNORE THEIR JANITORS? But then I remember that when I was in college, and dorms were segregated by gender, and the janitorial staff went on strike, the women's dorms all rapidly raised funds to pay the janitors' wages during the strike, and huge numbers of female students turned out for the union protests; not a single men's dorm raised a strike fund, and male students were outnumbered at the protests by more than ten to one. Like, in my dorm, we didn't just know our janitors' names, we knew their kids' and grandkids' names, and did whip-rounds when their kids got married so we could send a nice dorm gift.
My dad started practicing law in 1975, and he told me more than a few times that one of the major keys to being a successful lawyer was gossiping with the secretaries. Many of his colleagues ignored them and condescended to them. My dad (who is the most gregarious man alive, just by nature) always chatted with them and knew about their lives. Guess who got his documents filed last-second on a Friday? Guess who heard about layoffs before they happened?
I know ignoring "the help" is a class thing. But I'd love to see statistics about gender vs. class (and vs. political orientation maybe too?). In my experience, women are much more aware of the people who do menial labor to keep the building running, and much quicker to create relationships with people performing those tasks. I can't remember a time I didn't know the janitorial staff in a building I worked or lived in. It seems literally dehumanizing (which I guess it is); I can't imagine any adult in my childhood saying it was okay for me NOT to know and thank the janitors.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 8:25 PM on May 19, 2021 [22 favorites]
My dad started practicing law in 1975, and he told me more than a few times that one of the major keys to being a successful lawyer was gossiping with the secretaries. Many of his colleagues ignored them and condescended to them. My dad (who is the most gregarious man alive, just by nature) always chatted with them and knew about their lives. Guess who got his documents filed last-second on a Friday? Guess who heard about layoffs before they happened?
I know ignoring "the help" is a class thing. But I'd love to see statistics about gender vs. class (and vs. political orientation maybe too?). In my experience, women are much more aware of the people who do menial labor to keep the building running, and much quicker to create relationships with people performing those tasks. I can't remember a time I didn't know the janitorial staff in a building I worked or lived in. It seems literally dehumanizing (which I guess it is); I can't imagine any adult in my childhood saying it was okay for me NOT to know and thank the janitors.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 8:25 PM on May 19, 2021 [22 favorites]
I didn't fit in with anyone on my last job (an arts media production company) either, co-workers or clients, partially because of their wealth. Lots of rich museum and museum-adjacent people who had trust fund or rich stockbroker husband money.
When there had been an office, I was that person taking sandwiches and selzer home from meetings, so that bit stuck out to me. The company eventually had us all work from home, and whenever a client asked me during a phone meeting intro where I lived in New York, I'd just say by the Botanical Gardens and let them assume I meant Brooklyn (that part of Brooklyn is very nice, IMO. Where I currently live, not so much).
I'm also having a hard time finding a mentor who could tell me what I'm worth as I continue my job search, so that part of the essay stuck out to me as well.
posted by droplet at 8:25 PM on May 19, 2021 [4 favorites]
When there had been an office, I was that person taking sandwiches and selzer home from meetings, so that bit stuck out to me. The company eventually had us all work from home, and whenever a client asked me during a phone meeting intro where I lived in New York, I'd just say by the Botanical Gardens and let them assume I meant Brooklyn (that part of Brooklyn is very nice, IMO. Where I currently live, not so much).
I'm also having a hard time finding a mentor who could tell me what I'm worth as I continue my job search, so that part of the essay stuck out to me as well.
posted by droplet at 8:25 PM on May 19, 2021 [4 favorites]
A huge part of me always wants to know WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE WHO IGNORE THEIR JANITORS?
I've always said hello to the custodial staff who clean laboratories, but one thing I've noticed in the past 5 years is almost all of them wear earbuds now and are listening to music or carrying on a phone conversation (especially the contracted team who clocks in at around 6:30pm). With wireless earbuds becoming ubiquitous, and masks making them harder to see, I've finally shifted over to just and acknowledging nod of thanks that doesn't require another person to respond.
Still feels weird though.
posted by deludingmyself at 9:18 PM on May 19, 2021 [5 favorites]
I've always said hello to the custodial staff who clean laboratories, but one thing I've noticed in the past 5 years is almost all of them wear earbuds now and are listening to music or carrying on a phone conversation (especially the contracted team who clocks in at around 6:30pm). With wireless earbuds becoming ubiquitous, and masks making them harder to see, I've finally shifted over to just and acknowledging nod of thanks that doesn't require another person to respond.
Still feels weird though.
posted by deludingmyself at 9:18 PM on May 19, 2021 [5 favorites]
Tales From the Palace: The Dark Side of the Theatre Fairy Tale
Came up in my feedly this morning. Abusive Classism: it's not just for start ups.
posted by HeroZero at 7:00 AM on May 20, 2021 [1 favorite]
Came up in my feedly this morning. Abusive Classism: it's not just for start ups.
posted by HeroZero at 7:00 AM on May 20, 2021 [1 favorite]
Oh, that "tales from the palace" article is going around my theater friends' social media like whoa right now, and people are starting to share their own stories.
Like mine - where one of my theater companies co-produced a show with a Big-Dealie NYC off-off-Broadway/indie-theater dude, and at the opening night gala I walked up to where my business partner was talking with him at one point. My business partner interrupted himself mid-sentence when he saw me and introduced me, saying "oh, this is EC, she's our company's literary manager and she did the office management stuff while we were in rehearsals." And Big-Dealie gave me a cursory glance, then gave me a drink order and turned right back to my business partner to pick up the conversation. I was thrown enough by that that I stood there a couple seconds blinking - and he noticed, turned to me again, and again repeated his drink order, sounding a little pissed. I just got him his damn drink and stayed clear of both of them the rest of the night, and had a chat with my business partner - who's also a friend - after. He had the grace to apologize for not pushing back on my behalf; I think he was also similarly thrown.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:03 AM on May 20, 2021 [9 favorites]
Like mine - where one of my theater companies co-produced a show with a Big-Dealie NYC off-off-Broadway/indie-theater dude, and at the opening night gala I walked up to where my business partner was talking with him at one point. My business partner interrupted himself mid-sentence when he saw me and introduced me, saying "oh, this is EC, she's our company's literary manager and she did the office management stuff while we were in rehearsals." And Big-Dealie gave me a cursory glance, then gave me a drink order and turned right back to my business partner to pick up the conversation. I was thrown enough by that that I stood there a couple seconds blinking - and he noticed, turned to me again, and again repeated his drink order, sounding a little pissed. I just got him his damn drink and stayed clear of both of them the rest of the night, and had a chat with my business partner - who's also a friend - after. He had the grace to apologize for not pushing back on my behalf; I think he was also similarly thrown.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:03 AM on May 20, 2021 [9 favorites]
Did you spit in it?
posted by wenestvedt at 5:21 PM on May 20, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by wenestvedt at 5:21 PM on May 20, 2021 [3 favorites]
Publishing, too, although in my less-glamorous niche of it there's less Parent Money and more Spouse Money. I will never forget the look of pure drawn horror that came over one very nice lady's face at a publishing event when she asked what my husband did for a living, and I explained that I wasn't married.
Several years ago, a friend who is about 20 years younger than me asked my advice—how had I managed to put together a sustainable life that allowed me to devote so much of my time and energy to volunteer work I cared about? Activism? Low- and unpaid creative work?
I was chagrined to have to admit that it worked out because I happened to partner up with a software engineer. A very effective strategy, but not one you can easily go about replicating.
posted by Orlop at 6:52 AM on May 21, 2021 [1 favorite]
Several years ago, a friend who is about 20 years younger than me asked my advice—how had I managed to put together a sustainable life that allowed me to devote so much of my time and energy to volunteer work I cared about? Activism? Low- and unpaid creative work?
I was chagrined to have to admit that it worked out because I happened to partner up with a software engineer. A very effective strategy, but not one you can easily go about replicating.
posted by Orlop at 6:52 AM on May 21, 2021 [1 favorite]
In the context of the article, I should clarify: not the start-up kind of software engineer, but the works-for-an-established-company kind of software engineer.
posted by Orlop at 6:54 AM on May 21, 2021
posted by Orlop at 6:54 AM on May 21, 2021
Isn’t everyone broke in their first job out of undergrad?
LOLsob other people have answered this thoughtfully but there are an awful lot of assumptions about "everyone" buried in that seemingly simple question.
Maybe a third of high school graduates go on to finish a bachelor's degree; "undergrad" is not a term that people tend to use unless they're around people who have advanced degrees, which itself is a class indicator.
And I may be reading too much into "first job," but for the record an awful lot of Americans start working in their teens out of necessity and continue doing so for the rest of their lives. The children of well-to-do people have gap years and summer jobs and internships and start their first "real jobs" after four years of college - the rest of us plebes slog our ways underemployed through online courses and night school, and if we manage to pop out the other end, usually after taking a few more years than our age cohort, tend to remain chronically underemployed, slightly older than the rest of the workforce we're competing with, and pretty jaded on the whole fucking thing.
posted by aspersioncast at 7:08 AM on May 21, 2021 [12 favorites]
LOLsob other people have answered this thoughtfully but there are an awful lot of assumptions about "everyone" buried in that seemingly simple question.
Maybe a third of high school graduates go on to finish a bachelor's degree; "undergrad" is not a term that people tend to use unless they're around people who have advanced degrees, which itself is a class indicator.
And I may be reading too much into "first job," but for the record an awful lot of Americans start working in their teens out of necessity and continue doing so for the rest of their lives. The children of well-to-do people have gap years and summer jobs and internships and start their first "real jobs" after four years of college - the rest of us plebes slog our ways underemployed through online courses and night school, and if we manage to pop out the other end, usually after taking a few more years than our age cohort, tend to remain chronically underemployed, slightly older than the rest of the workforce we're competing with, and pretty jaded on the whole fucking thing.
posted by aspersioncast at 7:08 AM on May 21, 2021 [12 favorites]
I was chagrined to have to admit that it worked out because I happened to partner up with a software engineer. A very effective strategy, but not one you can easily go about replicating.
While I certainly don't think people need to be disclosing their financial status to the world, I do wish that there was more transparency around the careers and lifestyles that basically require having either family or spousal subsidies. Partly so that people who lack those external resources can make choices with full information about whether or not to go into those fields, but also because without transparency, things will never change to allow more people access.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:47 AM on May 21, 2021 [3 favorites]
While I certainly don't think people need to be disclosing their financial status to the world, I do wish that there was more transparency around the careers and lifestyles that basically require having either family or spousal subsidies. Partly so that people who lack those external resources can make choices with full information about whether or not to go into those fields, but also because without transparency, things will never change to allow more people access.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:47 AM on May 21, 2021 [3 favorites]
LOLsob other people have answered this thoughtfully but there are an awful lot of assumptions about "everyone" buried in that seemingly simple question.
I also think work is the first place where the are serious age and life cycle differences among peers, and if you don't think about it, you might think your peers in your high school, college, or first job are in the same position and financial bracket as you. Even in college the parents and workers are more often in night classes and often segregated away from the other young full time students. Also, most people have relatively similar living arrangements.
But at work, there will be a huge range, from people who have worked and saved to young people to people with graduate degrees to the CEO's son, and you wouldn't know their salary and financial position, and living arrangement unless you are very close to them.
Especially if you are a new hire, you also might not know they are road warriors who live in a hotel away from their family 4 days a week who have so many air miles and hotel points, a vacation to Greece or whatever is no big deal.
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:55 AM on May 21, 2021 [1 favorite]
I also think work is the first place where the are serious age and life cycle differences among peers, and if you don't think about it, you might think your peers in your high school, college, or first job are in the same position and financial bracket as you. Even in college the parents and workers are more often in night classes and often segregated away from the other young full time students. Also, most people have relatively similar living arrangements.
But at work, there will be a huge range, from people who have worked and saved to young people to people with graduate degrees to the CEO's son, and you wouldn't know their salary and financial position, and living arrangement unless you are very close to them.
Especially if you are a new hire, you also might not know they are road warriors who live in a hotel away from their family 4 days a week who have so many air miles and hotel points, a vacation to Greece or whatever is no big deal.
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:55 AM on May 21, 2021 [1 favorite]
On the one hand, I totally identified with the author's background. I grew up so poor that soda was a luxury that I only got a few times a year and all my clothes were from the thrift store. I did go to college out of highschool, it was cheap in the 80s, but then dropped out and worked in construction for a decade. I didn't manage to finish my degree until I was 34 and was hired by a startup during the dot-com boom.
On the other hand, I work in Pittsburgh, not Mountain View and the culture is very different (or was then). I've had many coworkers in tech whose dads had been millworkers, still talk with a Western PA accent and take off for a week in the fall to go deer hunting. There's a lot more talk about hockey than there is about golf.
posted by octothorpe at 8:26 PM on May 21, 2021 [2 favorites]
On the other hand, I work in Pittsburgh, not Mountain View and the culture is very different (or was then). I've had many coworkers in tech whose dads had been millworkers, still talk with a Western PA accent and take off for a week in the fall to go deer hunting. There's a lot more talk about hockey than there is about golf.
posted by octothorpe at 8:26 PM on May 21, 2021 [2 favorites]
Oof! I was not only the lowest paid at the start-up I worked for during the Bubble, I also did payroll so I was reminded every two weeks.
posted by _paegan_ at 10:42 AM on May 23, 2021
posted by _paegan_ at 10:42 AM on May 23, 2021
I did manage to underbid my starting salary so badly at the startup that hired me out of college that when IBM bought them out a year later, I was off the bottom of their lowest salary band. They gave me a $10,000 raise just to get me to the bottom. I had been making $8/hr and the shitty salary that the startup offered me seemed like a fucking fortune.
posted by octothorpe at 2:02 PM on May 23, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by octothorpe at 2:02 PM on May 23, 2021 [1 favorite]
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posted by biogeo at 8:50 AM on May 19, 2021 [23 favorites]