"This could actually happen in real life!"
September 6, 2021 6:43 AM Subscribe
A brief oral history of Idiocracy.
Previously and also previously. Feel free to add more previouslies.
Previously and also previously. Feel free to add more previouslies.
I do always find it a bit odd when people talk about things like Idiocracy, or a book like Neuromancer and talk about how prophetic it is, but then I also read recently (I wish I remembered where) that most of the world lives in the past, and the people who more fully understand the present are the prophets.
Futuristic sci-fi has always been commentary on the present, with a somewhat unfamiliar milieu to highlight the content. Idiocracy isn't about stupid people outbreeding smart people. It's about belligerent stupidity that is always lurking, and is just waiting to be legitimized, and the last several years -- most particularly the last 20 months -- has proven that we tolerate belligerent stupidity at our peril.
posted by tclark at 8:21 AM on September 6, 2021 [46 favorites]
Futuristic sci-fi has always been commentary on the present, with a somewhat unfamiliar milieu to highlight the content. Idiocracy isn't about stupid people outbreeding smart people. It's about belligerent stupidity that is always lurking, and is just waiting to be legitimized, and the last several years -- most particularly the last 20 months -- has proven that we tolerate belligerent stupidity at our peril.
posted by tclark at 8:21 AM on September 6, 2021 [46 favorites]
I hated the movie when it first came out. It seemed like satire that only, well, idiots would find insightful or funny. Is a rewatch called for?
posted by PhineasGage at 8:34 AM on September 6, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by PhineasGage at 8:34 AM on September 6, 2021 [3 favorites]
Futuristic sci-fi has always been commentary on the present, with a somewhat unfamiliar milieu to highlight the content.
That's why Shadowrun isn't fun to play anymore. There's like, fifteen megacorps? That feels like healthy competition to me, now. "Oh, what if a lot of people were undocumented and had to make their living in the shadows?!" ... "What if everyone had a gun?" ah haha.. ha...huh.
posted by Made of Star Stuff at 8:42 AM on September 6, 2021 [43 favorites]
That's why Shadowrun isn't fun to play anymore. There's like, fifteen megacorps? That feels like healthy competition to me, now. "Oh, what if a lot of people were undocumented and had to make their living in the shadows?!" ... "What if everyone had a gun?" ah haha.. ha...huh.
posted by Made of Star Stuff at 8:42 AM on September 6, 2021 [43 favorites]
The opening bit where they try to act like the world's problems are caused by the poor is extremely backwards. We ARE heading for Idiocracy but it's fully being caused by the rich, something people who were already rich could never understand.
posted by bleep at 8:46 AM on September 6, 2021 [39 favorites]
posted by bleep at 8:46 AM on September 6, 2021 [39 favorites]
It's hard to get over the movie's explicitly eugenic premise. Not only is it morally awful, it's also the totally wrong diagnosis of The Problem With Things These Days.
It's like someone read "The Time Machine" and wrote a version that blamed The Poors for our future and not capitalism.
posted by BungaDunga at 8:54 AM on September 6, 2021 [26 favorites]
It's like someone read "The Time Machine" and wrote a version that blamed The Poors for our future and not capitalism.
posted by BungaDunga at 8:54 AM on September 6, 2021 [26 favorites]
Why 'Idiocracy' Would Actually Be A Utopia (Cracked)
posted by BungaDunga at 8:56 AM on September 6, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by BungaDunga at 8:56 AM on September 6, 2021 [4 favorites]
For a movie that's kind of smart about stupid, it really isn't smart about how stupid is empowered.
posted by mazola at 9:04 AM on September 6, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by mazola at 9:04 AM on September 6, 2021 [3 favorites]
a version that blamed The Poors for our future and not capitalism.
It mostly does this, but not entirely, and all at once. The Carl's Junior scene comes to mind.
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:08 AM on September 6, 2021 [1 favorite]
It mostly does this, but not entirely, and all at once. The Carl's Junior scene comes to mind.
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:08 AM on September 6, 2021 [1 favorite]
The reason we got a big stupid violent president isn't that people are dumber; it's that -- well, I won't go into all the reasons besides the big blinking sign that says RACISM.
Cool. What I care about is what causes racism, and what can we do about those things?
Just pointing out racism isn't enough anymore.
posted by amtho at 9:24 AM on September 6, 2021 [4 favorites]
Cool. What I care about is what causes racism, and what can we do about those things?
Just pointing out racism isn't enough anymore.
posted by amtho at 9:24 AM on September 6, 2021 [4 favorites]
I do love this movie. The matte paintings are brilliant. (The premise is very similar to "When The Sleeper Wakes" by H. G. Wells, which includes a "gas of peace" similar to the Carl's Junior scene linked above.) But the reason I love it and why the comedy works, to me, lies in how individually selfish the dumb people of the future are.
posted by Catblack at 9:25 AM on September 6, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by Catblack at 9:25 AM on September 6, 2021 [6 favorites]
Where do people get the idea that the movie blames poor people? I know people love to fit everything into boxes of "racism" and "classism" but the movie is obviously a dumb satire on how the decline of education and the dominance of corporate consumerism taken to the extreme is bad for a society- which isn't very controversial. I don't think it's too complicated.
posted by Liquidwolf at 9:29 AM on September 6, 2021 [17 favorites]
posted by Liquidwolf at 9:29 AM on September 6, 2021 [17 favorites]
Where do people get the idea that the movie blames poor people?
From its focus on poverty an inheritable condition based on some notion of genetic quality; and class-linked lowbrow or 'vulgar' culture as the vehicle of ruin, whatever the structural causes?
Why is the 'cholo' cabinet member funny?
The ending calls out oversubscription to the premise, but weakly.
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:32 AM on September 6, 2021 [11 favorites]
From its focus on poverty an inheritable condition based on some notion of genetic quality; and class-linked lowbrow or 'vulgar' culture as the vehicle of ruin, whatever the structural causes?
Why is the 'cholo' cabinet member funny?
The ending calls out oversubscription to the premise, but weakly.
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:32 AM on September 6, 2021 [11 favorites]
Painful for me to watch (or more accurately, listen to) - I couldn't get through the movie.
The opening bit where they try to act like the world's problems are caused by the poor
That wasn't my takeaway. I thought it blamed the world's problems on football players breeding with cheerleaders. (Or was that a different film?)
I hated the movie when it first came out. It seemed like satire that only, well, idiots would find insightful or funny. Is a rewatch called for?
Life's too short. Spend your time with something you find appealing.
posted by Rash at 9:36 AM on September 6, 2021 [1 favorite]
The opening bit where they try to act like the world's problems are caused by the poor
That wasn't my takeaway. I thought it blamed the world's problems on football players breeding with cheerleaders. (Or was that a different film?)
I hated the movie when it first came out. It seemed like satire that only, well, idiots would find insightful or funny. Is a rewatch called for?
Life's too short. Spend your time with something you find appealing.
posted by Rash at 9:36 AM on September 6, 2021 [1 favorite]
The thing that bugged me about this movie was that it tried to eat its cake and have it too. In theory it was about the world being run by imbeciles and watching stupid shit like Ow My Balls. But then also it had nothing to say of any substance other than "ha ha crocs. Ha ha ow my balls." In theory it's a satire, except it didn't even seem like they were aware of the concept of satire.
Main character might as well have looked directly in the camera and said "Don't you get it? This is about YOU" except it didn't even ever come off as being that self-aware.
posted by nushustu at 9:38 AM on September 6, 2021 [8 favorites]
Main character might as well have looked directly in the camera and said "Don't you get it? This is about YOU" except it didn't even ever come off as being that self-aware.
posted by nushustu at 9:38 AM on September 6, 2021 [8 favorites]
Yeah, if you hated it originally then it's really just the sight gags and one-liners and as good as some of those are probably not enough to make it tolerable for you now.
"Don't you get it? This is about YOU" except it didn't even ever come off as being that self-aware
the ending
(before the final gag which I guess I won't spoil)
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:38 AM on September 6, 2021 [1 favorite]
"Don't you get it? This is about YOU" except it didn't even ever come off as being that self-aware
the ending
(before the final gag which I guess I won't spoil)
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:38 AM on September 6, 2021 [1 favorite]
Ow! My Balls! is currently streaming on Nestflix.
posted by dannyboybell at 9:40 AM on September 6, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by dannyboybell at 9:40 AM on September 6, 2021 [3 favorites]
Your periodic reminder that Mike Judge isn't really a deep thinker. I've enjoyed a lot of his work--King of the Hill, most of Office Space, parts of this film, even Daria counts because it's a spin-off of Beavis and Butt-Head and keeps Judge's general animation style--but he also did The Goode Family, based on the super-dubious premise that the same audience who loved watching cartoons about a middle-class family not terribly unlike the ones that you see in towns and cities all across America would similarly enjoy the foibles of a very specific type of liberal and their milieu that's found mostly in the larger college towns. Having been liberated from his dull office job by Milton's arson, Peter in Office Space is last seen shoveling the charred debris of Initech without even a face mask, let alone a respirator, so his former employer is probably doing the same number on his lungs that it did on his soul.
And then there's this movie, with its eugenics-friendly intro. That whole bit could have been clipped off the movie. and you'd have had a reasonably decent dystopia that avoided the twin SF cliches of Tomorrowland and blasted hellscape. You could put together for yourself how and why that probably happened. But Judge seems to have been 100% behind the whole eugenics thing.
posted by Halloween Jack at 9:45 AM on September 6, 2021 [7 favorites]
And then there's this movie, with its eugenics-friendly intro. That whole bit could have been clipped off the movie. and you'd have had a reasonably decent dystopia that avoided the twin SF cliches of Tomorrowland and blasted hellscape. You could put together for yourself how and why that probably happened. But Judge seems to have been 100% behind the whole eugenics thing.
posted by Halloween Jack at 9:45 AM on September 6, 2021 [7 favorites]
a book like Neuromancer and talk about how prophetic it is, but then I also read recently (I wish I remembered where) that most of the world lives in the past, and the people who more fully understand the present are the prophets.
Funnily enough, it was probably William Gibson who said that last part. That's pretty much always been his premise, he's never claimed to be a prophet.
posted by star gentle uterus at 10:26 AM on September 6, 2021
Funnily enough, it was probably William Gibson who said that last part. That's pretty much always been his premise, he's never claimed to be a prophet.
posted by star gentle uterus at 10:26 AM on September 6, 2021
Really if you're focusing on this as being a giant commentary on early 20th eugenics you're missing the point of the movie. Stupid people having more kids and thus inheriting the earth is a tired trope but it gets us quickly to the main plot of the movie. Lets not overthink Idiocracy here. Like others have said it was a commentary on contemporary culture. Carl's Jr.'s AI box is a perfect example of corporations vane attempts at social justice, "You are an unfit mother, Carl's Junior will now take custody of your children," despite causing that very incident! This is like Dell, et al showing support for International Women's Day but quiet on S8 and the like.
Similarly I've been in meetings where the upper management has been sold a product and I swear they might as well say "Brawndo Has What Plants Crave!" when trying to explain that no, the product just doesn't do what you think it does. This is why the movie resonates with people.
If there was a giant commentary on poor people and not corporatism we'd at least have an underground of smart people who survived or something counter to our protagonists. We don't, we have a future where people are free from want and need and instead of an egalitarian, socialist Star Trek society we have some dystopian corporate future. It is like when the biggest social project in my neighborhood hasn't been advancements in public education, transportation or anything related to health but Google coming in and providing free WiFi to underprivileged households. That's the problem, that like the Carl Jr's box we neatly outsource our social ills to corporations.
Geeze, sometimes these movies aren't that complex.
posted by geoff. at 10:27 AM on September 6, 2021 [28 favorites]
Similarly I've been in meetings where the upper management has been sold a product and I swear they might as well say "Brawndo Has What Plants Crave!" when trying to explain that no, the product just doesn't do what you think it does. This is why the movie resonates with people.
If there was a giant commentary on poor people and not corporatism we'd at least have an underground of smart people who survived or something counter to our protagonists. We don't, we have a future where people are free from want and need and instead of an egalitarian, socialist Star Trek society we have some dystopian corporate future. It is like when the biggest social project in my neighborhood hasn't been advancements in public education, transportation or anything related to health but Google coming in and providing free WiFi to underprivileged households. That's the problem, that like the Carl Jr's box we neatly outsource our social ills to corporations.
Geeze, sometimes these movies aren't that complex.
posted by geoff. at 10:27 AM on September 6, 2021 [28 favorites]
If a work isn't worth overthinking, it's not worth consuming.
posted by Faint of Butt at 10:39 AM on September 6, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by Faint of Butt at 10:39 AM on September 6, 2021 [3 favorites]
I never said it was complex lol. I would have no problem with the movie if it didn't start off with "Here's the problem: poor people reproducing".
posted by bleep at 10:41 AM on September 6, 2021 [8 favorites]
posted by bleep at 10:41 AM on September 6, 2021 [8 favorites]
I didn't think much of it the first time I saw it, but it was coherent and it was unique: the abuse delivered to current, recognizable brands (Starbucks, Fuddruckers, Carl's Junior, Costco), the lampooning of entertainment's reliance on violence ("Rehabilitation", "Oh My Balls"), and the unseen AI-operated economy and social order made me watch it again.
Also, Fox hated it very much, and tried to kill it: that means something.
Some details are so smart: the glyphs in the hospital admission automation and the advanced health testing therein and the debasement of popular entertainment and its subsumption by politics (which looks like pure prophecy after the Turmp administration).
I don't think it's eugenics-friendly: The enabling premise of the movie is unkind, catering to the cultural trope that intelligence and genius are limited but stupidity is not, but the butt of the joke is not just stupidity alone: people are also petty, violent, venal, short-sighted, lazy and horny.
posted by the Real Dan at 10:55 AM on September 6, 2021 [11 favorites]
Also, Fox hated it very much, and tried to kill it: that means something.
Some details are so smart: the glyphs in the hospital admission automation and the advanced health testing therein and the debasement of popular entertainment and its subsumption by politics (which looks like pure prophecy after the Turmp administration).
I don't think it's eugenics-friendly: The enabling premise of the movie is unkind, catering to the cultural trope that intelligence and genius are limited but stupidity is not, but the butt of the joke is not just stupidity alone: people are also petty, violent, venal, short-sighted, lazy and horny.
posted by the Real Dan at 10:55 AM on September 6, 2021 [11 favorites]
I have had the intro to Idiocracy cited to me in the middle of being told that my decision, as a woman, not to have kids is an affront to nature/the country/Western Civilization/the white race.
I don’t hate the movie, but my perception of it is definitely colored by who I see citing it and to what end, and I am pretty sure that the issue isn’t “overthinking things.”
posted by evidenceofabsence at 10:57 AM on September 6, 2021 [27 favorites]
I don’t hate the movie, but my perception of it is definitely colored by who I see citing it and to what end, and I am pretty sure that the issue isn’t “overthinking things.”
posted by evidenceofabsence at 10:57 AM on September 6, 2021 [27 favorites]
a book like Neuromancer and talk about how prophetic it is
Remember how Case fueled his Neotokyo drug binge by selling three megabytes of RAM?
posted by adept256 at 10:57 AM on September 6, 2021 [9 favorites]
Remember how Case fueled his Neotokyo drug binge by selling three megabytes of RAM?
posted by adept256 at 10:57 AM on September 6, 2021 [9 favorites]
The sad part is the eugenics part wasn't even necessary to sell the world. I think "Oh god I woke up in a future where everyone is stupid" is a pretty easy sell on its face. Nobody is going to stand up and shout that dumb people taking control of the world is completely unbelievable. It's like if Planet of the Apes felt the need to go back and explain why humanity blew it all up (the original movies, not the new ones that explain this in excruciating detail (don't tell me if the original Planet of the Apes ever explained it.).)
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 10:59 AM on September 6, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 10:59 AM on September 6, 2021 [2 favorites]
Still haven't seen 'Idiocracy' but I've always wanted to. I don't think Judge was thinking he was Jonathon Swift. I suspect at best he was aiming for "Kentucky Fried Move" with a bit of subtext?
I inherited my late Dad's crocs. Absolutely not street shoes in my estimation ... but as something that sits outside on the stoop, to step into when taking out the garbage... unbeatable. Also, gardening.
posted by Artful Codger at 11:11 AM on September 6, 2021 [2 favorites]
I inherited my late Dad's crocs. Absolutely not street shoes in my estimation ... but as something that sits outside on the stoop, to step into when taking out the garbage... unbeatable. Also, gardening.
posted by Artful Codger at 11:11 AM on September 6, 2021 [2 favorites]
The opening bit where they try to act like the world's problems are caused by the poor is extremely backwards.
I've seen this movie a few times and it seems to poke at rich and poor, alike, because they all want the same things. Boner pills. Movies showing asses. Fast food on demand.
Except for the clueless couple thinking about the future to the exclusion of the immediate present, and the main character, who doesn't think about much of anything at all, everyone else's value system is centered from the get-go on fulfilling immediate needs and wants, either consuming or providing for consumers, with corporations making that happen at every step.
Everyone likes money. And each character says so at pretty much any opportunity. No one has enough.
Funnily enough, it was probably William Gibson who said that last part. That's pretty much always been his premise, he's never claimed to be a prophet.
From an brief piece with him for his recent book Agency:
I've seen this movie a few times and it seems to poke at rich and poor, alike, because they all want the same things. Boner pills. Movies showing asses. Fast food on demand.
Except for the clueless couple thinking about the future to the exclusion of the immediate present, and the main character, who doesn't think about much of anything at all, everyone else's value system is centered from the get-go on fulfilling immediate needs and wants, either consuming or providing for consumers, with corporations making that happen at every step.
Everyone likes money. And each character says so at pretty much any opportunity. No one has enough.
Funnily enough, it was probably William Gibson who said that last part. That's pretty much always been his premise, he's never claimed to be a prophet.
From an brief piece with him for his recent book Agency:
Perhaps not surprisingly, given his grim vision of the future, Mr. Gibson tries to shrug off the prophet label. He’d rather not be called a prescient visionary.posted by They sucked his brains out! at 11:29 AM on September 6, 2021 [9 favorites]
“Every imaginary future ever written is about the time it was written in,” he said. “People talk about science fiction’s predictive possibilities, but that’s a byproduct. It’s all really about now.”
I remember being excited about this movie but unimpressed when I saw it on video in 2007 or so. The friend I watched it with at the same said afterward, “I’d been hearing about how this movie had such a poor showing because it was undermined at every step of the way but I think actually the problem is it’s… not very good.” I’d give it another watch but I think he was right.
posted by obfuscation at 12:03 PM on September 6, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by obfuscation at 12:03 PM on September 6, 2021 [1 favorite]
Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding it's way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge'. - Isaac Asimov
We won with the poorly educated, I love the poorly educated - That guy.
That latter quote was cheered.
I think about someone like Lauren Boebert, who had to drop out of high school to raise her child. To her credit, she earned her diploma shortly before her political career. She learnt exactly the wrong lesson from this though. She should be advocating for access to childcare and sex education. Instead she's an anti-elitist contrarian.
It must be incredibly frustrating, knowing that the AI will filter out your resume. You see your peers flourish with their magic-ticket degrees, while you struggle to raise a child on your own. It's not your fault, you're doing the right thing, you're a good person, but you can't get ahead... so you look for someone to blame. It must be those educated people that are having it so much easier. They have what you deserve, and it's not fair.
A lot of people feel this way. And they're perversely proud of being uneducated, what they have they earnt honestly without an education. What they resent most of all is being considered unworthy. And they'll vote for people who'll tell them otherwise.
Now we have a political class that's thriving on anti-intellectualism. It really seems as if stupidity is ascendant right now, it's having a moment. The FDA had to remind people, via their official twitter account, that 'You are not a horse. You are not a cow. Seriously y'all. Stop it.' because the Boebert's of the world have told them not to trust the experts, take veterinary medicine to treat covid.
Lauren didn't have to go this way. I think she's right to be angry, but her aim is off. There are people that are working to keep pregnant teenagers out of school. There are people working to make higher education an impossibility. There are people demonizing education, expertise, knowledge, and earned authority, and she's become one of them. That's the tragedy of Lauren Boebert.
I know this post is about Idiocracy. idc
posted by adept256 at 12:37 PM on September 6, 2021 [15 favorites]
We won with the poorly educated, I love the poorly educated - That guy.
That latter quote was cheered.
I think about someone like Lauren Boebert, who had to drop out of high school to raise her child. To her credit, she earned her diploma shortly before her political career. She learnt exactly the wrong lesson from this though. She should be advocating for access to childcare and sex education. Instead she's an anti-elitist contrarian.
It must be incredibly frustrating, knowing that the AI will filter out your resume. You see your peers flourish with their magic-ticket degrees, while you struggle to raise a child on your own. It's not your fault, you're doing the right thing, you're a good person, but you can't get ahead... so you look for someone to blame. It must be those educated people that are having it so much easier. They have what you deserve, and it's not fair.
A lot of people feel this way. And they're perversely proud of being uneducated, what they have they earnt honestly without an education. What they resent most of all is being considered unworthy. And they'll vote for people who'll tell them otherwise.
Now we have a political class that's thriving on anti-intellectualism. It really seems as if stupidity is ascendant right now, it's having a moment. The FDA had to remind people, via their official twitter account, that 'You are not a horse. You are not a cow. Seriously y'all. Stop it.' because the Boebert's of the world have told them not to trust the experts, take veterinary medicine to treat covid.
Lauren didn't have to go this way. I think she's right to be angry, but her aim is off. There are people that are working to keep pregnant teenagers out of school. There are people working to make higher education an impossibility. There are people demonizing education, expertise, knowledge, and earned authority, and she's become one of them. That's the tragedy of Lauren Boebert.
I know this post is about Idiocracy. idc
posted by adept256 at 12:37 PM on September 6, 2021 [15 favorites]
I've been studying the Cultural Revolution (so maybe I'm seeing it everywhere) and one of the goals was bringing down teachers and the intellectuals because they were bourgeoisie. Seems like that's the best (or worst) example we have of what anti-intellectualism can lead to.
posted by Rash at 12:54 PM on September 6, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by Rash at 12:54 PM on September 6, 2021 [3 favorites]
Just seeing Gibson mentioned in the same thread as Mike Judge is giving me some serious cognitive dissonance.
posted by valkane at 1:05 PM on September 6, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by valkane at 1:05 PM on September 6, 2021 [3 favorites]
One thing I've always wondered about Idiocracy is: where are the rich people? I mean, presumably President Camacho has some money, maybe Beef Supreme has money from his victories, but we never see, for example, the CEOs of Starbucks or Carls' Jr or Brawndo. Who owns these companies? Is someone somewhere living some crazy lavish lifestyle? Because it seems like the entire population is roughly lower-middle class. (I also wonder why the US hasn't been invaded, but maybe the rest of the world is dumb too, and that's sort of beyond the scope anyway...)
posted by Saxon Kane at 1:13 PM on September 6, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by Saxon Kane at 1:13 PM on September 6, 2021 [5 favorites]
Who owns these companies?
There are mass riots when they stop using Brawndo to irrigate crops and the stock tanks.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 1:34 PM on September 6, 2021 [4 favorites]
There are mass riots when they stop using Brawndo to irrigate crops and the stock tanks.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 1:34 PM on September 6, 2021 [4 favorites]
Saxon Kane: On repeated viewings, I got the impression that they sort of walled themselves off and just lobbed over enough tech and distractions to keep the dumb majority quiet. Even the star of Ow My Balls sounds pretty normal to the audience, making him pompous & arrogant-sounding to earn a kick in the balls from a bystander.
The running gag of “water? Like from the toilet?” lands because it lampoons the kind of corporate marketing that successfully convinced the population that a Gatorade clone was a healthy necessity, relegating water to toilet bowl filler. No wonder Not Sure got weird looks when he asked to drink it and irrigate crops with.
posted by dr_dank at 1:36 PM on September 6, 2021 [1 favorite]
The running gag of “water? Like from the toilet?” lands because it lampoons the kind of corporate marketing that successfully convinced the population that a Gatorade clone was a healthy necessity, relegating water to toilet bowl filler. No wonder Not Sure got weird looks when he asked to drink it and irrigate crops with.
posted by dr_dank at 1:36 PM on September 6, 2021 [1 favorite]
Just seeing Gibson mentioned in the same thread as Mike Judge is giving me some serious cognitive dissonance.
They both involve a dystopian future. As cynical and depressing as "everyone in America is dumber than they are today" is, Gibson postulates a future with no America at all. The corrosive effects of advertising are prominent in 80's cyberpunk -- though I can't recall it as a theme of Neuromancer in particular, one of Gibson's later protagonists is in actually allergic to advertising and corporate logos.
The difference seems to be largely that the stories Gibson tells are of people's struggles to live within and often perpetuate the dystopia, whereas Idiocracy's main theme is describing and curing it. Obviously Neuromancer explores some deeper connections with consciousness and cyberspace as the afterlife, while Idiocracy is silent on any spiritual themes that I can recall, likely to its detriment.
posted by pwnguin at 2:00 PM on September 6, 2021 [3 favorites]
They both involve a dystopian future. As cynical and depressing as "everyone in America is dumber than they are today" is, Gibson postulates a future with no America at all. The corrosive effects of advertising are prominent in 80's cyberpunk -- though I can't recall it as a theme of Neuromancer in particular, one of Gibson's later protagonists is in actually allergic to advertising and corporate logos.
The difference seems to be largely that the stories Gibson tells are of people's struggles to live within and often perpetuate the dystopia, whereas Idiocracy's main theme is describing and curing it. Obviously Neuromancer explores some deeper connections with consciousness and cyberspace as the afterlife, while Idiocracy is silent on any spiritual themes that I can recall, likely to its detriment.
posted by pwnguin at 2:00 PM on September 6, 2021 [3 favorites]
I had been so excited for this movie but when I saw it I violently hated it and found it the most victim-blaming and classist movie I can recall ever seeing! I want to read this article if it includes any regret on the part of anyone involved?
posted by latkes at 2:04 PM on September 6, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by latkes at 2:04 PM on September 6, 2021 [1 favorite]
The running gag of “water? Like from the toilet?” lands because it lampoons the kind of corporate marketing that successfully convinced the population that a Gatorade clone was a healthy necessity, relegating water to toilet bowl filler.
Not unlike the real-world one that convinced a huge amount of people that bottled water was somehow healthier than tap water, even though sometimes it's straight from the tap without even a cursory filtering.
posted by Halloween Jack at 2:09 PM on September 6, 2021 [12 favorites]
Not unlike the real-world one that convinced a huge amount of people that bottled water was somehow healthier than tap water, even though sometimes it's straight from the tap without even a cursory filtering.
posted by Halloween Jack at 2:09 PM on September 6, 2021 [12 favorites]
we never see, for example, the CEOs of Starbucks or Carls' Jr or Brawndo
Thomas Hayden Church has a cameo as the CEO of Brawndo who says that “the computer did that auto-layoff thingy” after Not Sure’s water initiative. His character doesn’t sound all that much brighter.
posted by Servo5678 at 2:17 PM on September 6, 2021 [5 favorites]
Thomas Hayden Church has a cameo as the CEO of Brawndo who says that “the computer did that auto-layoff thingy” after Not Sure’s water initiative. His character doesn’t sound all that much brighter.
posted by Servo5678 at 2:17 PM on September 6, 2021 [5 favorites]
Good movie. The opening scene does rankle if you know anything about the history of 'selective breeding', eugenics, who gets to decide who's smart and who's dumb. On the other hand, there has to be room in comedy to laugh at the aggressively stupid.
posted by chaz at 2:19 PM on September 6, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by chaz at 2:19 PM on September 6, 2021 [4 favorites]
Idiocracy's portrayal of stupid, inflexible systems was great: "Your children will be placed in the custody of Carl's Jr.", the tattoo machine, "Welcome to Costco. I love you.", going to law school at Costco, the floor-cleaning robot banging into the wall at the hospital, "Brought to you by Carl's, Jr", etc. The thing that makes that funny isn't the stupidity of the people, it's the stupidity and utter inhumanity of the systems.
In retrospect, the classism was unnecessary, and certainly hasn't aged well. In contrast, all of us have to deal with inane systems and bureaucracies all the time. They're things that smart people have built (usually to save/make money), and that smart people are also regularly ensnared by. The intro should have focused less on Cletus and more on the fact that the best and brightest scientists were busy designing super-Viagra.
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 2:22 PM on September 6, 2021 [14 favorites]
In retrospect, the classism was unnecessary, and certainly hasn't aged well. In contrast, all of us have to deal with inane systems and bureaucracies all the time. They're things that smart people have built (usually to save/make money), and that smart people are also regularly ensnared by. The intro should have focused less on Cletus and more on the fact that the best and brightest scientists were busy designing super-Viagra.
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 2:22 PM on September 6, 2021 [14 favorites]
The companies are managed by AI and presumably “owned” by other AI managed investment funds—capital all the way down. That was one of the better conceits although its po-faced plausibility is perhaps a retcon when watched today.
posted by snuffleupagus at 2:36 PM on September 6, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by snuffleupagus at 2:36 PM on September 6, 2021 [3 favorites]
Oh yeah, I forgot about the Brawndo CEO's appearance. Still, there doesn't seem to be a wealthy class, per se?
posted by Saxon Kane at 2:46 PM on September 6, 2021
posted by Saxon Kane at 2:46 PM on September 6, 2021
It's been a long time, but IIRC in Neuromancer the corporate dynasties use their wealth to pursue post-human aims and are literally so above it all that they're in orbit.
posted by adept256 at 2:47 PM on September 6, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by adept256 at 2:47 PM on September 6, 2021 [3 favorites]
Geeze, sometimes these movies aren't that complex.
Objecting to Idiocracy's theories of biological and socioeconomic change is right up there with objecting to Dr Strangelove's trivialization of nuclear holocaust, or objecting to how Monty Python and the Holy Grail erodes confidence in syllogistic logic, or how Blazing Saddles unforgivably depicts alcoholism as a superpower.
You can certainly find comedy movies with offensive comic premises, but an implausible class structure in dystopic America 484 years from now does not make the list.
posted by Scarf Joint at 3:59 PM on September 6, 2021 [7 favorites]
Objecting to Idiocracy's theories of biological and socioeconomic change is right up there with objecting to Dr Strangelove's trivialization of nuclear holocaust, or objecting to how Monty Python and the Holy Grail erodes confidence in syllogistic logic, or how Blazing Saddles unforgivably depicts alcoholism as a superpower.
You can certainly find comedy movies with offensive comic premises, but an implausible class structure in dystopic America 484 years from now does not make the list.
posted by Scarf Joint at 3:59 PM on September 6, 2021 [7 favorites]
They missed a chance by not having the endumbening be caused by rising CO2 levels.
I've only seen this movie once, but I remember being really impressed by the subtlety in Terry Crew's performance. He's an ex-wrestler named "Macho" Camacho firing a machine gun in the Capitol building, sure, but I really felt like he was someone trying to keep the wheels on as the whole car fell apart. He would not be the worst president we have ever had.
Also, Maya Rudolph kills.
posted by BeeDo at 4:01 PM on September 6, 2021 [7 favorites]
I've only seen this movie once, but I remember being really impressed by the subtlety in Terry Crew's performance. He's an ex-wrestler named "Macho" Camacho firing a machine gun in the Capitol building, sure, but I really felt like he was someone trying to keep the wheels on as the whole car fell apart. He would not be the worst president we have ever had.
Also, Maya Rudolph kills.
posted by BeeDo at 4:01 PM on September 6, 2021 [7 favorites]
Along with the That Guy comparisons, further in the life-imitates-art department, it was also a representative from the same state that called Obama a liar at a State of the Union speech -- South Carolina -- that berates Camacho in the movie. Can't get better than that, short of the parent corporation of Carl's Jr. one day taking children into protective custody.
Not nearly as well made as Starship Troopers, but I suspect this will be one of those satires that ages better, or is at least seen as prescient as the US continues its inexorable decline. At the very least, much like Troopers slipping through the studio system cracks, it is amazing Idiocracy got made at all.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 4:52 PM on September 6, 2021 [2 favorites]
Not nearly as well made as Starship Troopers, but I suspect this will be one of those satires that ages better, or is at least seen as prescient as the US continues its inexorable decline. At the very least, much like Troopers slipping through the studio system cracks, it is amazing Idiocracy got made at all.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 4:52 PM on September 6, 2021 [2 favorites]
This comment from 2016 still seems relevant to this article.
The irony of Idiocracy, then, is that as a movie it embodies precisely the principle it's declaring and critiquing. But it fails to use that irony; if Judge realized what he was bringing into the world, he sure as shit dropped the ball on doing anything with it. Idiocracy is difficult to use as an argument in favor of finding a better human nature; it's great at using to drop context-free scorn on any aspect of society you dislike, and acting like you've made some kind of profound statement about the world. It's an enabler.posted by introp at 6:04 PM on September 6, 2021 [4 favorites]
Other, better satires exist;
The opening scene does rankle if you know anything about the history of 'selective breeding', eugenics, who gets to decide who's smart and who's dumb.
I've been struggling with the Eugenics criticism of this movie and every time I return to something basic like the above and ask myself: is that what they're doing, though? The population imbalance is portrayed as a result (at least partially) of careerism and impotence. The yuppie couple would have had 40 kids too if they could 1 (and if they started younger)! The aspiring parents are merely at the mercy of Mother Nature as far as that's concerned. No selection, no deciding.
The reading-between-the-lines about the larger family who is louder (definitely) and dumber (I suppose) being held in disdain doesn't really hold a lot of water. At the end of the day, they're the ones who had more kids, and is it controversial to imply that people living at the...let's call it the "mass popularity" end of the Parts & Accessories catalog of life, would result in a society and commercial landscape filled with crude and base interests and imagery? The "People of Walmart" vibe doesn't really overwhelm the plot enough to be a problem, though it's there.
1 I forget if they mention only wanting a small number of children.
posted by rhizome at 7:23 PM on September 6, 2021 [1 favorite]
I've been struggling with the Eugenics criticism of this movie and every time I return to something basic like the above and ask myself: is that what they're doing, though? The population imbalance is portrayed as a result (at least partially) of careerism and impotence. The yuppie couple would have had 40 kids too if they could 1 (and if they started younger)! The aspiring parents are merely at the mercy of Mother Nature as far as that's concerned. No selection, no deciding.
The reading-between-the-lines about the larger family who is louder (definitely) and dumber (I suppose) being held in disdain doesn't really hold a lot of water. At the end of the day, they're the ones who had more kids, and is it controversial to imply that people living at the...let's call it the "mass popularity" end of the Parts & Accessories catalog of life, would result in a society and commercial landscape filled with crude and base interests and imagery? The "People of Walmart" vibe doesn't really overwhelm the plot enough to be a problem, though it's there.
1 I forget if they mention only wanting a small number of children.
posted by rhizome at 7:23 PM on September 6, 2021 [1 favorite]
One thing I think about too much in re this movie is what all those people are or were like that built the automation required to make this all work.
The easy to use broadcast camera? The voice recognition? The picture buttons at the hospital? The giant execution trucks? Some stuff is clearly in decline, like the Walmart, but some stuff seems evergreen, as if lovingly built for a population that wouldn't be able to reproduce it on its own
posted by adoarns at 7:32 PM on September 6, 2021 [5 favorites]
The easy to use broadcast camera? The voice recognition? The picture buttons at the hospital? The giant execution trucks? Some stuff is clearly in decline, like the Walmart, but some stuff seems evergreen, as if lovingly built for a population that wouldn't be able to reproduce it on its own
posted by adoarns at 7:32 PM on September 6, 2021 [5 favorites]
The good news is that historically IQ scores on various types of tests have been trending upwards for the past hundred years, probably due to improved nutrition.
posted by bq at 8:17 PM on September 6, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by bq at 8:17 PM on September 6, 2021 [1 favorite]
bq, that upward trend is known as the Flynn Effect. And unfortunately, it looks like it's reversing.
posted by MrVisible at 8:50 PM on September 6, 2021
posted by MrVisible at 8:50 PM on September 6, 2021
That paper on the "retrograde Flynn effect" is interesting! "The results show that large positive and negative trends in cohort IQ operate within as well as across families. This implies that the trends are not due to a changing composition of families, and that there is at most a minor role for explanations involving genes (e.g., immigration and dysgenic fertility)...[and] the magnitude of the negative Flynn trend in our data itself speaks against the dysgenic hypothesis for retrograde Flynn effects, as changes in IQ over time are too large to plausibly reflect selection-driven genetic change in the population."
posted by BungaDunga at 9:14 PM on September 6, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by BungaDunga at 9:14 PM on September 6, 2021 [2 favorites]
Movie night at my house would be: Idiocracy, Day Without a Mexican, Johhny Mnemonic and Fight Club if there’s time
posted by bendy at 9:26 PM on September 6, 2021
posted by bendy at 9:26 PM on September 6, 2021
Getting back to the article... I've worked in VFX shops, and everything they say about the making of the movie sounds like a horrible nightmare in an already nightmarish industry.
posted by clawsoon at 12:20 AM on September 7, 2021
posted by clawsoon at 12:20 AM on September 7, 2021
Remember how CaseTo quote a recent tweet by Gibson himself about the very same RAM:fueled his Neotokyo drug binge by selling[hoped to fence] three megabytes of RAM?
"Tell me about it! And no smartphones, either! But it looks increasingly like I may have gotten orbital billionaire dickheads right."
posted by Strutter Cane - United Planets Stilt Patrol at 2:53 AM on September 7, 2021 [11 favorites]
Let's see a film adaptation of the RPG Paranoia, and we just might tease out some of the best features of Idiocracy
posted by elkevelvet at 8:08 AM on September 7, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by elkevelvet at 8:08 AM on September 7, 2021 [3 favorites]
I liked this passage:
as well as this one at the beginning:
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 7:28 PM on September 7, 2021 [1 favorite]
GILFORD: The thing with Mike that I found really interesting — he's clearly a genius and he's an incredible musician so he hears things and he hears the cadence of a script and I think he tends to hear things probably more than he visualizes them. And I'm the exact opposite. It was hard for me because I'd have a vision or I'd be communicating that and I think Mike would be hearing it and I would be seeing the scenes.because they're both saying the same thing but from their own perspective
JUDGE: Darren Gilford is a brilliant designer; [but] sometimes getting him to do...it's like asking a really great singer to sing out of tune.
as well as this one at the beginning:
TIMOTHY SUHRSTEDT (CINEMATOGRAPHER): I have to be careful because I don't want to badmouth studios and people. It was a very frustrating process for Mike because he had his deal at Fox. He had done Office Space and he was still doing King of the Hill. I think it was pretty clear by the time he got around to making Idiocracy that not only did he not want to work with Fox, they didn't really want to work with him.where they both have such differing opinions of what was happening.
JUDGE: They were gung-ho about it. There are always battles with the studio and that's kinda the fun thing to talk about. Ultimately, Fox paid for both Office Space and Idiocracy, so credit to them.
SUHRSTEDT: I've seen this happen before but this was the most egregious — where a studio doesn't want to make the movie but, even more than that, they don't want another studio to have success with it if they turn it down.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 7:28 PM on September 7, 2021 [1 favorite]
This movie is about eugenics the same way Facebook deleting posts is censorship. It's not, but you need to spend more than a few seconds making a snap judgement or repeating someone else's, and figure out some subtle nuance. For certain topics, unfortunately, the mere whiff of evil (be it Nazism, racism, or otherwise) is enough to get people to put up blinders and not spend that time making subtle distinctions. It's far easier to dismiss the movie as being about eugenics, and not discuss eugenics at all, and avoid the possibility that some idiot going to misrepresent what you wrote as you being in a Nazi, and in support of Nazi eugenics programs. More modern versions of those kinds of topics where there are nuanced viewpoints that are impossible to have validating discussions about: being anti-vaccine-passport and not anti-vaccine, or being anti-mask-mandates while being pro-mask. Another evergreen hot-button topic that came up again recently is if someone can be anti-Israel while not being anti-Semitic. (Not to derail; my point is that nuanced discussion is difficult, and not something that we do well in the age of Twitter, even after they raised message length limits to 288 characters.)
The movie (which came out in 2006) also falls into a very specific 90's high school trope, to its own detriment - jocks are dumb, the stuff they like (aka sports or wrestling) is dumb - and anybody who likes sports is also dumb. The movie then piles onto dumb people without ever examining that part of the premise. The movie isn't about that, but that is an odious, oversimplified take on the world, no matter how much it justification there is for that. If you find that particular viewpoint too difficult to engage with, then this isn't the movie for you. If you do manage to watch it, the movie is endlessly quotable (paraphrased from memory: "I like money, do you like money?" *Nods* "We should be friends!") and perhaps even more applicable today. Expert opinion is routinely dismissed in favor of the mob. The mob's a bunch of idiots who are currently in the hospital after eating horse dewormer. That someone else shares the believe that they will lead to the downfall of society (and that, maybe, society can be saved yet) is a viewpoint that others may find comfort in, even if the box that viewpoint is wrapped up in is a bit smug.
posted by fragmede at 1:00 PM on September 8, 2021 [2 favorites]
The movie (which came out in 2006) also falls into a very specific 90's high school trope, to its own detriment - jocks are dumb, the stuff they like (aka sports or wrestling) is dumb - and anybody who likes sports is also dumb. The movie then piles onto dumb people without ever examining that part of the premise. The movie isn't about that, but that is an odious, oversimplified take on the world, no matter how much it justification there is for that. If you find that particular viewpoint too difficult to engage with, then this isn't the movie for you. If you do manage to watch it, the movie is endlessly quotable (paraphrased from memory: "I like money, do you like money?" *Nods* "We should be friends!") and perhaps even more applicable today. Expert opinion is routinely dismissed in favor of the mob. The mob's a bunch of idiots who are currently in the hospital after eating horse dewormer. That someone else shares the believe that they will lead to the downfall of society (and that, maybe, society can be saved yet) is a viewpoint that others may find comfort in, even if the box that viewpoint is wrapped up in is a bit smug.
posted by fragmede at 1:00 PM on September 8, 2021 [2 favorites]
This movie is about eugenics the same way Facebook deleting posts is censorship.
If he'd wanted to make a movie about dopes taking over society, he totally could have. It would probably have been nearly the same movie! But Judge even says that the whole premise of the movie is based around an argument about "evolution" and "genetics": "In our modern world, pretty much everyone survives, so what would that mean in the long run if you're talking about purely genetics." He accepts the premise that there's too many of the wrong people surviving and having children.
That's eugenics-adjacent, because once you decide this is a real problem, the most obvious solution is eugenics. Maybe it's "positive eugenics" (trying to get the correct people to have more children) or "negative eugenics" (trying to get the correct people to have fewer children). I don't think Judge wants to throw undesirables into camps, but you can be a eugenicist without actually looking or sounding or even thinking much like a Nazi, but: it turns out Nazis love these ideas.
(the third option, I guess, is advocating radical anarcho-primitivism and hoping that torching modern society and going back to the caves kills off enough of the wrong people, but that's arguably a sort of holodomor, which isn't better)
posted by BungaDunga at 10:04 PM on September 8, 2021 [3 favorites]
If he'd wanted to make a movie about dopes taking over society, he totally could have. It would probably have been nearly the same movie! But Judge even says that the whole premise of the movie is based around an argument about "evolution" and "genetics": "In our modern world, pretty much everyone survives, so what would that mean in the long run if you're talking about purely genetics." He accepts the premise that there's too many of the wrong people surviving and having children.
That's eugenics-adjacent, because once you decide this is a real problem, the most obvious solution is eugenics. Maybe it's "positive eugenics" (trying to get the correct people to have more children) or "negative eugenics" (trying to get the correct people to have fewer children). I don't think Judge wants to throw undesirables into camps, but you can be a eugenicist without actually looking or sounding or even thinking much like a Nazi, but: it turns out Nazis love these ideas.
(the third option, I guess, is advocating radical anarcho-primitivism and hoping that torching modern society and going back to the caves kills off enough of the wrong people, but that's arguably a sort of holodomor, which isn't better)
posted by BungaDunga at 10:04 PM on September 8, 2021 [3 favorites]
Stephen Root as the judge in this movie was such a great follow up to Milton. Best comedy character in the game. The actors performances are so big it makes the production shortcomings fade away.
posted by Space Coyote at 6:05 AM on September 9, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by Space Coyote at 6:05 AM on September 9, 2021 [2 favorites]
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This is some real nineteenth-century thinking. This is how we got eugenics. People have pointed that out already, of course, but it's surprising to me that no one has explained the problem to Judge in the meantime, or if they have, he didn't take it on board at all. The reason we got a big stupid violent president isn't that people are dumber; it's that -- well, I won't go into all the reasons besides the big blinking sign that says RACISM. Accepting the premise of Idiocracy outside of the length of the movie's runtime is extremely damaging.
I'm not gonna lie, though, I laughed. And I have laughed at Beavis and Butthead, King of the Hill, all that stuff. Thing is, Judge is a big old centrist and it's no longer a time for centrists, and I do know what it's like to be out of your time.
posted by Countess Elena at 8:15 AM on September 6, 2021 [47 favorites]