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December 17, 2021 10:24 AM Subscribe
Toyota charges a monthly fee to remote start your car with your key fob. They're not alone: automakers are moving toward subscriptions for everything from GPS to lane-keeping assist to heated seats. With billions of dollars in potential revenue at stake, car companies want to change from "an industry that sells products to an industry that sells services and products."
The economics of this are obnoxious but maybe acceptable. I understand why, say, I have to pay for traffic updates; there's a monthly subscription fee for a value added service.
The line is when they deliberately limit the car's systems to support their rent seeking. For instance, one of the links says BMW is now charging $80/year for CarPlay. That's already annoying; I think of CarPlay as a one time purchase feature, not a subscription. But OK, maybe there's some reason. But why offer CarPlay at all? Why not remove CarPlay and instead require I use their own infotainment computer? And their maps, and their Spotify access, and... That's the future we're headed to I fear.
Who am I kidding. We're probably heading to Car3 where all my car data lives on a blockchain and I have to gamble with some shitcoins in order to see my fuel gauge.
posted by Nelson at 10:33 AM on December 17, 2021 [66 favorites]
The line is when they deliberately limit the car's systems to support their rent seeking. For instance, one of the links says BMW is now charging $80/year for CarPlay. That's already annoying; I think of CarPlay as a one time purchase feature, not a subscription. But OK, maybe there's some reason. But why offer CarPlay at all? Why not remove CarPlay and instead require I use their own infotainment computer? And their maps, and their Spotify access, and... That's the future we're headed to I fear.
Who am I kidding. We're probably heading to Car3 where all my car data lives on a blockchain and I have to gamble with some shitcoins in order to see my fuel gauge.
posted by Nelson at 10:33 AM on December 17, 2021 [66 favorites]
This was the case for my 2012 Hyundai Veloster. A bunch of features that, turns out, only work if you buy the "Hyundai Connect" or whatever package for ~$350/year (IIRC). They were never all that reliable anyway, given the early days of the technology, so it wasn't a big loss to give them up, but the techiness of the car was one of the big reasons I bought it, so it was a bit of a letdown.
I'd be absolutely thrilled to have a "car as a subscription" service if it meant I didn't have to deal with maintenance, repairs, registration, etc. but the only ones that exist so far are super expensive (+$1200/month).
posted by Rock Steady at 10:33 AM on December 17, 2021 [9 favorites]
I'd be absolutely thrilled to have a "car as a subscription" service if it meant I didn't have to deal with maintenance, repairs, registration, etc. but the only ones that exist so far are super expensive (+$1200/month).
posted by Rock Steady at 10:33 AM on December 17, 2021 [9 favorites]
one of the links says BMW is now charging $80/year for CarPlay. That's already annoying; I think of CarPlay as a one time purchase feature, not a subscription. But OK, maybe there's some reason. But why offer CarPlay at all? Why not remove CarPlay and instead require I use their own infotainment computer?
Originally the car companies wanted to charge an arm and a leg for things like map updates and traffic data, but then smartphones happened. Charging for CarPlay / Android Auto is just a way for the car companies to get back on that gravy train.
The car companies probably claim that the subscription covers keeping CarPlay / Android Auto up to date on their vehicles, but $80 / year is way overpriced for that.
posted by jedicus at 10:43 AM on December 17, 2021 [4 favorites]
Originally the car companies wanted to charge an arm and a leg for things like map updates and traffic data, but then smartphones happened. Charging for CarPlay / Android Auto is just a way for the car companies to get back on that gravy train.
The car companies probably claim that the subscription covers keeping CarPlay / Android Auto up to date on their vehicles, but $80 / year is way overpriced for that.
posted by jedicus at 10:43 AM on December 17, 2021 [4 favorites]
I fucking hate the "subscription model" - Intuit, Adobe, and now car companies. My car is ancient , but I'll do whatever I can to keep it running so I don't have to essentially 'lease' a new car if I want it to have all its features actually, you know, work.
posted by PhineasGage at 10:46 AM on December 17, 2021 [84 favorites]
posted by PhineasGage at 10:46 AM on December 17, 2021 [84 favorites]
Guess it's time I learn how to maintain a model T.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 10:53 AM on December 17, 2021 [22 favorites]
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 10:53 AM on December 17, 2021 [22 favorites]
There is no justification for charging a fee for using the fob. I would think that anyone being told that their fob no longer worked and to pay $8/month would take their car to the nearest Canadian Tire or equivalent place and get an aftermarket starter installed out of spite if nothing else. Even stuff like Car Play or Android Auto or whatever, just give a bluetooth connection to the car and then let the driver's phone do all of that stuff. What's the advantage to the consumer of paying way too much for an already obsolete tablet plugged into your car?
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 10:55 AM on December 17, 2021 [26 favorites]
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 10:55 AM on December 17, 2021 [26 favorites]
Here are your most evil ideas for car subscription services (Jalopnik)
I'd be absolutely thrilled to have a "car as a subscription" service if it meant I didn't have to deal with maintenance, repairs, registration, etc.
Supposedly, Volvo will rent you a S60 all-inclusive for $700/month. Which also seems super expensive, but maybe cheaper than it used to be?
posted by box at 10:57 AM on December 17, 2021 [8 favorites]
I'd be absolutely thrilled to have a "car as a subscription" service if it meant I didn't have to deal with maintenance, repairs, registration, etc.
Supposedly, Volvo will rent you a S60 all-inclusive for $700/month. Which also seems super expensive, but maybe cheaper than it used to be?
posted by box at 10:57 AM on December 17, 2021 [8 favorites]
It's Phil Dick's world. We just live in it.
posted by doctornemo at 10:59 AM on December 17, 2021 [36 favorites]
posted by doctornemo at 10:59 AM on December 17, 2021 [36 favorites]
For instance, one of the links says BMW is now charging $80/year for CarPlay. That's already annoying; I think of CarPlay as a one time purchase feature, not a subscription. But OK, maybe there's some reason. But why offer CarPlay at all? Why not remove CarPlay and instead require I use their own infotainment computer? And their maps, and their Spotify access, and... That's the future we're headed to I fear.
Because back then CarPlay wasn't a standard feature and most BMWs are leases. So your choices were paying $500 up front for the thing or $80/year which ended up cheaper for a lot of people. The premise being that further down the line the people who bought the car on the ex-lease market would be an additional revenue stream if they wanted CarPlay.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 11:02 AM on December 17, 2021 [1 favorite]
Because back then CarPlay wasn't a standard feature and most BMWs are leases. So your choices were paying $500 up front for the thing or $80/year which ended up cheaper for a lot of people. The premise being that further down the line the people who bought the car on the ex-lease market would be an additional revenue stream if they wanted CarPlay.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 11:02 AM on December 17, 2021 [1 favorite]
It's Phil Dick's world. We just live in it.
For a reasonable subscription fee.
posted by nubs at 11:02 AM on December 17, 2021 [24 favorites]
For a reasonable subscription fee.
posted by nubs at 11:02 AM on December 17, 2021 [24 favorites]
Interesting that the only mention of regulation concerns recurring billing. Seems like this should be closely related to the right to repair issue.
posted by klanawa at 11:07 AM on December 17, 2021 [17 favorites]
posted by klanawa at 11:07 AM on December 17, 2021 [17 favorites]
But why offer CarPlay at all? Why not remove CarPlay and instead require I use their own infotainment computer?
For BMW, charging for Apple's Carplay is a win-win. They probably noticed that a significant amount of their users were ripping out the obsolete, terrible integrated infotainment system that BMW built and replacing it with CarPlay. Now, not only can they spend less effort developing and supporting their own infotainment system (that's always going to be inferior to Apple's or Google's), they can get a steady income stream for charging access to someone else's work.
It's a lot easier for most people to pay $80 a year, every year, to have official CarPlay than to pay $500(?) once and have a third party make a bunch of "modifications" to your car. The break-even point for those numbers is over six years, which is longer than most people keep their cars.
posted by meowzilla at 11:08 AM on December 17, 2021 [2 favorites]
For BMW, charging for Apple's Carplay is a win-win. They probably noticed that a significant amount of their users were ripping out the obsolete, terrible integrated infotainment system that BMW built and replacing it with CarPlay. Now, not only can they spend less effort developing and supporting their own infotainment system (that's always going to be inferior to Apple's or Google's), they can get a steady income stream for charging access to someone else's work.
It's a lot easier for most people to pay $80 a year, every year, to have official CarPlay than to pay $500(?) once and have a third party make a bunch of "modifications" to your car. The break-even point for those numbers is over six years, which is longer than most people keep their cars.
posted by meowzilla at 11:08 AM on December 17, 2021 [2 favorites]
Who am I kidding. We're probably heading to Car3 where all my car data lives on a blockchain and I have to gamble with some shitcoins in order to see my fuel gauge.
I really hate this episode of Black Mirror.
posted by Thorzdad at 11:09 AM on December 17, 2021 [25 favorites]
I really hate this episode of Black Mirror.
posted by Thorzdad at 11:09 AM on December 17, 2021 [25 favorites]
Feels like an extension of gouging you for service at the dealership, and hardens my determination to make our current car the last one we ever own.
posted by ryanshepard at 11:09 AM on December 17, 2021 [10 favorites]
posted by ryanshepard at 11:09 AM on December 17, 2021 [10 favorites]
my dad bought his first Toyota in 1969 and, with one exception, never bought another brand. Likewise my mom. I recently inherited her 2012 RAV which is an entirely okay car. My sister and both my brothers also currently drive Toyotas. You might call us their dream family.
After a brief discussion with my three siblings on this topic, we find we all agree on something for the first time in our adult lives.
No more fucking Toyotas!
posted by philip-random at 11:10 AM on December 17, 2021 [18 favorites]
After a brief discussion with my three siblings on this topic, we find we all agree on something for the first time in our adult lives.
No more fucking Toyotas!
posted by philip-random at 11:10 AM on December 17, 2021 [18 favorites]
How about a subscription to quality public transportation, with the fees coming out of taxes?
posted by Saxon Kane at 11:11 AM on December 17, 2021 [105 favorites]
posted by Saxon Kane at 11:11 AM on December 17, 2021 [105 favorites]
>"Instead of building cars with many different option packages to spec, companies can produce one fully equipped model and charge consumers to turn on the features they want."
who's ready to jailbreak their car?
posted by Grimp0teuthis at 11:12 AM on December 17, 2021 [22 favorites]
who's ready to jailbreak their car?
posted by Grimp0teuthis at 11:12 AM on December 17, 2021 [22 favorites]
Supposedly, Volvo will rent you a S60 all-inclusive for $700/month. Which also seems super expensive, but maybe cheaper than it used to be?
That's not bad, actually. Maybe a bit higher than I'd like, but the wheels are turning (heh).
posted by Rock Steady at 11:13 AM on December 17, 2021 [1 favorite]
That's not bad, actually. Maybe a bit higher than I'd like, but the wheels are turning (heh).
posted by Rock Steady at 11:13 AM on December 17, 2021 [1 favorite]
It's a lot easier for most people to pay $80 a year, every year, to have official CarPlay than to pay $500(?) once and have a third party make a bunch of "modifications" to your car. The break-even point for those numbers is over six years, which is longer than most people keep their cars.CarPlay doesn't involve any modifications: it's basically having your phone generate a video/audio stream and send touch or button events back. That's cheaper than having to develop and support their own incredibly bad software stack — here I'm thinking in particular of how manufacturers whose entertainment computers I crashed by connecting my iPhone with ~10k tracks in iTunes — and it avoids them needing to pay to run the servers and license content for things like mapping.
Charging for it is pure rent-seeking: they're doing far less work and charging a premium so you can access someone else's work. I'm hoping not to buy another car again but if I do, it won't be from a manufacturer which does this because there's no way that attitude will stop there.
posted by adamsc at 11:20 AM on December 17, 2021 [12 favorites]
I own a Toyota Camry. Last month I went out to find that the car's battery was dead, even though no electronics had been left on. Turns out, Toyota has a "road assistance program", which I do not subscribe to. Even though I don't use this service, a firmware update for my car went out that turned on the car locator "beacon," and it was running this beacon continuously that eventually killed the battery.
The dealership fixed the problem without charge (other than my time and inconvenience). But it exposes how at-risk I am when an automatic software update can brick my car.
posted by SPrintF at 11:23 AM on December 17, 2021 [130 favorites]
The dealership fixed the problem without charge (other than my time and inconvenience). But it exposes how at-risk I am when an automatic software update can brick my car.
posted by SPrintF at 11:23 AM on December 17, 2021 [130 favorites]
Guess it's time I learn how to maintain a model T.
You're making a joke but this specifically is why pre-2000s cars remain prized among gearheads.
posted by mhoye at 11:34 AM on December 17, 2021 [35 favorites]
You're making a joke but this specifically is why pre-2000s cars remain prized among gearheads.
posted by mhoye at 11:34 AM on December 17, 2021 [35 favorites]
We just bought a Toyota Sienna, and the number of free trials it came with was mind-boggling: SiriusXM, mobile hotspot, remote start, some kind of super navigation/OnStar/roadside assist thing, and I think an infotainment thing. Then they spammed the heck out of us reminding us to take advantage of the free trial. Then when the trials ended (without us ever signing up) they spammed the heck out of us to subscribe. (We sure do like SiriusXM, though. We'll give that one a pass because it is beaming us music FROM SPACE.)
The next step is for basically EVERYTHING to become a "subscribe to activate" feature, and then for them to sell you "lifetime subscriptions" to each of them as an add-on to the sticker price. So instead of buying a car with the Moon & Tunes package, you buy one with the Moon & Tunes-Ready** package. But hey: the first three months are included! Don't forget to take advantage!
posted by AgentRocket at 11:37 AM on December 17, 2021 [5 favorites]
The next step is for basically EVERYTHING to become a "subscribe to activate" feature, and then for them to sell you "lifetime subscriptions" to each of them as an add-on to the sticker price. So instead of buying a car with the Moon & Tunes package, you buy one with the Moon & Tunes-Ready** package. But hey: the first three months are included! Don't forget to take advantage!
posted by AgentRocket at 11:37 AM on December 17, 2021 [5 favorites]
This is acceptable at $2 a year. But if the company is paying the staff already, there s too much incentive to bleed customers. The Smartphones are bad enough, the more llike the telecoms the autos become, the more larcenous..
Just wait until they start streaming ads into your dashboard
posted by eustatic at 11:39 AM on December 17, 2021 [7 favorites]
Just wait until they start streaming ads into your dashboard
posted by eustatic at 11:39 AM on December 17, 2021 [7 favorites]
Nobody who's thinking subscription is the future of their product adding up that if it's the future of their product it's the future of every other product too and people do not have enough money in their paycheck for all of this shit. Something's gotta give.
posted by bleep at 11:47 AM on December 17, 2021 [22 favorites]
posted by bleep at 11:47 AM on December 17, 2021 [22 favorites]
I'd be absolutely thrilled to have a "car as a subscription" service if it meant I didn't have to deal with maintenance, repairs, registration, etc
I mean, this is basically a lease with the service add-on. It's what I do because I do not care about owning a car and I hate nothing more than unexpected car maintenance, so I pay an additional monthly fee to have all service and repairs included. For my mental sanity I find it worth it.
posted by Lutoslawski at 11:55 AM on December 17, 2021 [7 favorites]
I mean, this is basically a lease with the service add-on. It's what I do because I do not care about owning a car and I hate nothing more than unexpected car maintenance, so I pay an additional monthly fee to have all service and repairs included. For my mental sanity I find it worth it.
posted by Lutoslawski at 11:55 AM on December 17, 2021 [7 favorites]
Oh snap... Your payment for the "braking" option didn't clear from your account this month, we hope that disabling this capability will not inconvenience you in any way...
(You get this message while driving of course...)
posted by rozcakj at 11:57 AM on December 17, 2021 [12 favorites]
(You get this message while driving of course...)
posted by rozcakj at 11:57 AM on December 17, 2021 [12 favorites]
I am in principle okay with many subscription fees - servers do not update themselves well and the people who use one for a decade should probably pay more than people who use one for three months. Server-managers who provide good value for money should get more money than those who don’t, too. Fine.
But at the very least it should be clear how useful hardware will be without a continuing subscription. Legally contractually enforceably obvious. And I’d much rather we required that appliances cut off from subscriptions either fail to dumb-but-useful or maybe to open-source for unrisky ones. Or the manufacturer is required to pay for safe reuse or disposal if the subscription ends. Right to Repair plus recycling take back laws.
posted by clew at 11:57 AM on December 17, 2021 [10 favorites]
But at the very least it should be clear how useful hardware will be without a continuing subscription. Legally contractually enforceably obvious. And I’d much rather we required that appliances cut off from subscriptions either fail to dumb-but-useful or maybe to open-source for unrisky ones. Or the manufacturer is required to pay for safe reuse or disposal if the subscription ends. Right to Repair plus recycling take back laws.
posted by clew at 11:57 AM on December 17, 2021 [10 favorites]
Something's gotta give.
I think that what gives is "this accelerates an already-declining market" (cars) and "the broad realization that you can get almost all of this stuff by putting your phone in a dash mount."
posted by mhoye at 11:58 AM on December 17, 2021 [9 favorites]
I think that what gives is "this accelerates an already-declining market" (cars) and "the broad realization that you can get almost all of this stuff by putting your phone in a dash mount."
posted by mhoye at 11:58 AM on December 17, 2021 [9 favorites]
Well, screw this. This summer we got a 2013 Lexus RX. 100K miles but she's built like a tank and perfect for North Dakota winters. It's going to sadden me to have to switch to another brand in 7-8 years.
posted by Ber at 11:58 AM on December 17, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by Ber at 11:58 AM on December 17, 2021 [2 favorites]
Is there a list of car models that have/don't have this "feature"? I was debating buying a 2021 Toyota RAV4 until I read this article. Now it's a hard pass.
posted by lock robster at 12:01 PM on December 17, 2021 [10 favorites]
posted by lock robster at 12:01 PM on December 17, 2021 [10 favorites]
Capitalism sounds great on paper, but it just doesn't work in the real world.
posted by AlSweigart at 12:02 PM on December 17, 2021 [40 favorites]
posted by AlSweigart at 12:02 PM on December 17, 2021 [40 favorites]
who's ready to jailbreak their car?
This is already happening with tractors.
posted by nushustu at 12:03 PM on December 17, 2021 [30 favorites]
This is already happening with tractors.
posted by nushustu at 12:03 PM on December 17, 2021 [30 favorites]
I subscribe to a car. Gas, maintenance, repairs, snow tires, parking, it's all included. It's about $8 per hour to have the key fob in my hot little hands, and $0 otherwise. Disadvantage is that when I don't have the fob, the exact same car may not be in the exact same place when I next want a car.
It's called car sharing.
Frankly, this is the future, not this bullshit private automobile scenario where a huge deprecating capital expense it sits rotting away unused 22 hours a day.
Anyway, y'all can yell at me now.
posted by seanmpuckett at 12:03 PM on December 17, 2021 [35 favorites]
It's called car sharing.
Frankly, this is the future, not this bullshit private automobile scenario where a huge deprecating capital expense it sits rotting away unused 22 hours a day.
Anyway, y'all can yell at me now.
posted by seanmpuckett at 12:03 PM on December 17, 2021 [35 favorites]
We replaced my car last year. We traded in the old one and actually paid the thing off in under a year. I now own the car outright.
I get a notice every time I start the car that my SiriusXM subscription has expired. I never subscribed to it. Never used it. Don't want it. Would actually pay money for someone to hack my stupid infotainment system to remove this ridiculous rent-seeking prompt from my car. I really, truly hate that the company selling me a car can continue to push bullshit at me after I've paid it off.
But the heated seats? Really? If the company forced a subscription check prior to enabling the seats, you're for damn sure that I would be pulling out a soldering iron and bypassing that ASAP. If it were a lease that's one thing, but I am not renting the car and I'll be damned if I'm going to end up paying forever for the luxury of using the goddamn thing. Right to Repair is getting traction, how about we push for the Right to Actually Own Something I Fucking Paid For??
posted by caution live frogs at 12:06 PM on December 17, 2021 [40 favorites]
I get a notice every time I start the car that my SiriusXM subscription has expired. I never subscribed to it. Never used it. Don't want it. Would actually pay money for someone to hack my stupid infotainment system to remove this ridiculous rent-seeking prompt from my car. I really, truly hate that the company selling me a car can continue to push bullshit at me after I've paid it off.
But the heated seats? Really? If the company forced a subscription check prior to enabling the seats, you're for damn sure that I would be pulling out a soldering iron and bypassing that ASAP. If it were a lease that's one thing, but I am not renting the car and I'll be damned if I'm going to end up paying forever for the luxury of using the goddamn thing. Right to Repair is getting traction, how about we push for the Right to Actually Own Something I Fucking Paid For??
posted by caution live frogs at 12:06 PM on December 17, 2021 [40 favorites]
"I'd be absolutely thrilled to have a "car as a subscription" service if it meant I didn't have to deal with maintenance, repairs, registration, etc"
The thing about a cars-as-a-subscription service is that those already exist, and they're called taxis. (And, as seanmpuckett said, car sharing, although I don't have one local to me.) We're a two-car family because of little kids and car seats and inertia, but when we moved we picked a transit-friendly, pedestrian-friendly location specifically with an eye towards becoming a one-car family when the kids were a little bigger. Like, if we had to subscribe to our car working like a car, we'd definitely become a one-car family. And I'd have to do some math, but I'm relatively convinced that I could trade in my car costs for instacarting my groceries and getting a taxi or renting a car when I needed an actual car. I don't really like driving that much, and I drive a simple econobox. If I lose the "simple econobox" option, and I have to pay MORE to drive, I'd be pretty motivated find ways to make things work without a car.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 12:07 PM on December 17, 2021 [4 favorites]
The thing about a cars-as-a-subscription service is that those already exist, and they're called taxis. (And, as seanmpuckett said, car sharing, although I don't have one local to me.) We're a two-car family because of little kids and car seats and inertia, but when we moved we picked a transit-friendly, pedestrian-friendly location specifically with an eye towards becoming a one-car family when the kids were a little bigger. Like, if we had to subscribe to our car working like a car, we'd definitely become a one-car family. And I'd have to do some math, but I'm relatively convinced that I could trade in my car costs for instacarting my groceries and getting a taxi or renting a car when I needed an actual car. I don't really like driving that much, and I drive a simple econobox. If I lose the "simple econobox" option, and I have to pay MORE to drive, I'd be pretty motivated find ways to make things work without a car.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 12:07 PM on December 17, 2021 [4 favorites]
The dealership fixed the problem without charge (other than my time and inconvenience). But it exposes how at-risk I am when an automatic software update can brick my car.
I'd like to believe that most countries will quickly pass common-sense consumer protection and safety regulations against stuff like this, but judging by their current record against tech companies, 15 years from now some groundbreaking regulation will ensure you get alerts about how "This vehicle performs automatic updates you can't disable and which may disable critical functions at any time" and have to tap "Agree" every time you start the car.
posted by trig at 12:10 PM on December 17, 2021 [12 favorites]
I'd like to believe that most countries will quickly pass common-sense consumer protection and safety regulations against stuff like this, but judging by their current record against tech companies, 15 years from now some groundbreaking regulation will ensure you get alerts about how "This vehicle performs automatic updates you can't disable and which may disable critical functions at any time" and have to tap "Agree" every time you start the car.
posted by trig at 12:10 PM on December 17, 2021 [12 favorites]
I miss having to put the key in the ignition and leaving it there. In the winter, I have about 75 pockets where I might put my keys. And I like to know visually that the car is OFF because the keys are in my hand and I'm exiting the thing. I don't want touch screens either. And I want a volume KNOB for the stereo.
posted by SoberHighland at 12:13 PM on December 17, 2021 [27 favorites]
posted by SoberHighland at 12:13 PM on December 17, 2021 [27 favorites]
The door refused to open. It said, "Five cents, please."Philip K Dick, Ubik
He searched his pockets. No more coins; nothing. "I'll pay you tomorrow," he told the door. Again it remained locked tight. "What I pay you," he informed it, "is in the nature of a gratuity; I don't have to pay you."
"I think otherwise," the door said. "Look in the purchase contract you signed when you bought this conapt."
...he found the contract. Sure enough; payment to his door for opening and shutting constituted a mandatory fee. Not a tip.
"You discover I'm right," the door said. It sounded smug.
posted by adamrice at 12:17 PM on December 17, 2021 [57 favorites]
Can I just use this platform to reiterate what a steaming pile of shit Android Auto is?
Because it's a steaming pile of shit.
posted by chavenet at 12:24 PM on December 17, 2021 [9 favorites]
Because it's a steaming pile of shit.
posted by chavenet at 12:24 PM on December 17, 2021 [9 favorites]
MeFi user adipocere argues that the ultimate endpoint for DRM is the pay-per-swing hammer in 2011.
posted by lalochezia at 12:45 PM on December 17, 2021 [7 favorites]
posted by lalochezia at 12:45 PM on December 17, 2021 [7 favorites]
Also fun: these subscription services rely on an always-on cellular connection, which means that those cell towers might be decommissioned. Or just a simple outage on the car company's side, or something more structural like AWS.
posted by meowzilla at 12:53 PM on December 17, 2021 [11 favorites]
posted by meowzilla at 12:53 PM on December 17, 2021 [11 favorites]
I can definitely see the annoyance in practical terms. Expiring "free trials" is a great way to trick customers into not realizing the full cost of what they expected until after you can't return it / renegotiate terms, and it's not like they make it easy to swap in your own features. And god forbid their auth service have an outage.
On a purely theoretical basis, I can see the appeal of reducing the up front price of a car, in exchange for subscription revenue. It's less money to finance, and if you lose a job, you can't exactly sell just the remote starter for extra cash, but you can end a subscription. In some sense, more recurring revenue tied to the lifetime of the car means there's more incentive to make autos last longer, in ways that upfront payments do not.
Obviously nobody trusts that this tradeoff is being made, or even made clear it was made. So fuck Toyota for that. Probably the way this tradeoff gets made in a fair and transparent manner is to make the entire car a subscription (and separate manufacture from leasing), ala car sharing. Which is kind of a bummer: in this era of new cars being in short supply, more efficient use of the cars we already have isn't viable due to COVID hygiene. So my car sits on in the garage and moves once a week for a food & grocery run.
posted by pwnguin at 12:54 PM on December 17, 2021 [3 favorites]
On a purely theoretical basis, I can see the appeal of reducing the up front price of a car, in exchange for subscription revenue. It's less money to finance, and if you lose a job, you can't exactly sell just the remote starter for extra cash, but you can end a subscription. In some sense, more recurring revenue tied to the lifetime of the car means there's more incentive to make autos last longer, in ways that upfront payments do not.
Obviously nobody trusts that this tradeoff is being made, or even made clear it was made. So fuck Toyota for that. Probably the way this tradeoff gets made in a fair and transparent manner is to make the entire car a subscription (and separate manufacture from leasing), ala car sharing. Which is kind of a bummer: in this era of new cars being in short supply, more efficient use of the cars we already have isn't viable due to COVID hygiene. So my car sits on in the garage and moves once a week for a food & grocery run.
posted by pwnguin at 12:54 PM on December 17, 2021 [3 favorites]
Oh it already happened: Tesla drivers left unable to start their cars after outage
posted by meowzilla at 12:56 PM on December 17, 2021 [13 favorites]
posted by meowzilla at 12:56 PM on December 17, 2021 [13 favorites]
Personally, I think automakers plan to reduce carbon emissions by turning people off from car ownership is brilliant
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 1:02 PM on December 17, 2021 [24 favorites]
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 1:02 PM on December 17, 2021 [24 favorites]
A prediction:
Carmakers introducing these rent-a-features will have the cars phone home periodically to verify that the features are enabled. Possibly over an embedded cellular radio, but wifi will probably be an option.
An open-source team will assemble to learn the phone-home IP numbers and crack the verification transactions. Because security in embedded systems tends to be shitty, this probably won't be that hard. You'll be able to set up a Raspberry Pi as a fake server that intercepts verification requests and lets you turn on whatever features you want.
posted by adamrice at 1:05 PM on December 17, 2021 [13 favorites]
Carmakers introducing these rent-a-features will have the cars phone home periodically to verify that the features are enabled. Possibly over an embedded cellular radio, but wifi will probably be an option.
An open-source team will assemble to learn the phone-home IP numbers and crack the verification transactions. Because security in embedded systems tends to be shitty, this probably won't be that hard. You'll be able to set up a Raspberry Pi as a fake server that intercepts verification requests and lets you turn on whatever features you want.
posted by adamrice at 1:05 PM on December 17, 2021 [13 favorites]
My understanding is the locked out Tesla drivers were trying to use their phone app to enter their cars. Their 'card key' still worked. Of course, if you are counting on the phone and don't have the key then you are out of luck.
Nevertheless, the 'connected car' is becoming an increasing problem, especially as the car companies try to use it to wring money from their customers.
posted by eye of newt at 1:05 PM on December 17, 2021 [2 favorites]
Nevertheless, the 'connected car' is becoming an increasing problem, especially as the car companies try to use it to wring money from their customers.
posted by eye of newt at 1:05 PM on December 17, 2021 [2 favorites]
I subscribe to a car. Gas, maintenance, repairs, snow tires, parking, it's all included. It's about $8 per hour to have the key fob in my hot little hands, and $0 otherwise.
Car share services are great until some asshole crashes into you through no fault of your own, your account gets suspended for months while they "investigate," and you eventually get an email saying "We are closing your account permanently. Our decision is final. We will not respond to further inquiries." with no explanation as to why.
It was good while it lasted, anyway.
posted by wierdo at 1:11 PM on December 17, 2021 [21 favorites]
Car share services are great until some asshole crashes into you through no fault of your own, your account gets suspended for months while they "investigate," and you eventually get an email saying "We are closing your account permanently. Our decision is final. We will not respond to further inquiries." with no explanation as to why.
It was good while it lasted, anyway.
posted by wierdo at 1:11 PM on December 17, 2021 [21 favorites]
I see a good case for doing this in some cases: Take map software. Normally the incentives are to send it out with the car, and never update it again, because updating is complicated and the company has already sold the car. The only benefit to updating is poooossible future business. Making a subscription for the car software stack ensures there's an incentive to keep things updated, and keep paying some team to work on continuously improving it and making sure it runs on older cars owned by people paying their subscription: If the software stops working, they lose the subscription.
The keyfob thing is capitalist dystopian hell, and I'm not sure how they thought it was worth the PR hit.
Also, the best car is someone else's car. You can save ~$9k a year on average by not owning one, which leaves a pretty large budget for buying an electric bike and setting aside a yearly transportation budget for occasional car/truck rentals, train rides. It's good for your wallet and good for the planet.
posted by kaibutsu at 1:20 PM on December 17, 2021 [4 favorites]
The keyfob thing is capitalist dystopian hell, and I'm not sure how they thought it was worth the PR hit.
Also, the best car is someone else's car. You can save ~$9k a year on average by not owning one, which leaves a pretty large budget for buying an electric bike and setting aside a yearly transportation budget for occasional car/truck rentals, train rides. It's good for your wallet and good for the planet.
posted by kaibutsu at 1:20 PM on December 17, 2021 [4 favorites]
I bought a car a couple weeks ago. It includes an app and some connected services. I kept looking around for when the free trial would expire and what it would cost be after, but I learned that it's just free forever. I assume I'm paying with my data, though.
posted by endquote at 1:20 PM on December 17, 2021
posted by endquote at 1:20 PM on December 17, 2021
I guarantee there is nobody alive who owns a car who could get by without one.
posted by bleep at 1:21 PM on December 17, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by bleep at 1:21 PM on December 17, 2021 [6 favorites]
All of these features are dependent on being able to connect. And I understand what happens when the service is down. But what if I'm out of range? I park in an underground parking lot, one without cell service. Is everything disabled? Does it stay disabled after I emerge from the lot? What about going on a road trip to northern Maine or the Olympic Peninsula in Washington? I know that cell coverage is near ubiquitous, but near is not the same as absolute. And I shudder for those who live in Alaska, but not in Anchorage or Juneau.
And honestly, we already started this with SiriusXM and whatever the competitor they took over and became a monopoly with. And I'm probably a little blase because I don't own a car and when I rent one or use a car share, I don't bother to connect my phone. The one that really bothers me is the lane assist. Suddenly, your car is more dangerous to pedestrians and other drivers because the car company disabled something. It feels like there's grounds for a lawsuit there, if a tired driver drifts out of their lane, kills someone, and lane assist was disabled, but could have been enabled. The entertainment ones are annoying and stupid, but don't actively harm anyone. It's when they're putting safety features, and not just safety features for the driver and passengers, but safety features for others who don't have a choice or opportunity to pay for them.
Actually, I see a great opportunity here. I'm a fairly cautious driver and when I start driving regularly again, I'm going to take some defensive driving courses. I'd love a subscription service that slowed all luxury cars around me down to at most 4 mph over the speed limit. I'd happily pay $50 a month or more for that. Maybe $75 if it extended to around my home and person even when I'm not driving. If drivers don't like it, I'm sure there are counter subscription services that would block it. Or, say $25 a month to slow all cars with this sort of thing down to the speed limit when on my block. You put up signs saying this is a speed enforced block. Makes the streets safer, earns the companies more money, removes the need for speed cameras and red light cameras.
Imagine if Portland or Austin or Cambridge passed a law that all cars with this sort of service had to be slowed down to city speed limits? Exceptions made for emergency vehicles, of course. I know it'd be thrown out in an instant by the US Supreme Court for forcing women to have abortions in clinics run by undocumented immigrants, but I can dream of using this for good, can't I?
posted by Hactar at 1:23 PM on December 17, 2021 [4 favorites]
And honestly, we already started this with SiriusXM and whatever the competitor they took over and became a monopoly with. And I'm probably a little blase because I don't own a car and when I rent one or use a car share, I don't bother to connect my phone. The one that really bothers me is the lane assist. Suddenly, your car is more dangerous to pedestrians and other drivers because the car company disabled something. It feels like there's grounds for a lawsuit there, if a tired driver drifts out of their lane, kills someone, and lane assist was disabled, but could have been enabled. The entertainment ones are annoying and stupid, but don't actively harm anyone. It's when they're putting safety features, and not just safety features for the driver and passengers, but safety features for others who don't have a choice or opportunity to pay for them.
Actually, I see a great opportunity here. I'm a fairly cautious driver and when I start driving regularly again, I'm going to take some defensive driving courses. I'd love a subscription service that slowed all luxury cars around me down to at most 4 mph over the speed limit. I'd happily pay $50 a month or more for that. Maybe $75 if it extended to around my home and person even when I'm not driving. If drivers don't like it, I'm sure there are counter subscription services that would block it. Or, say $25 a month to slow all cars with this sort of thing down to the speed limit when on my block. You put up signs saying this is a speed enforced block. Makes the streets safer, earns the companies more money, removes the need for speed cameras and red light cameras.
Imagine if Portland or Austin or Cambridge passed a law that all cars with this sort of service had to be slowed down to city speed limits? Exceptions made for emergency vehicles, of course. I know it'd be thrown out in an instant by the US Supreme Court for forcing women to have abortions in clinics run by undocumented immigrants, but I can dream of using this for good, can't I?
posted by Hactar at 1:23 PM on December 17, 2021 [4 favorites]
I guarantee there is nobody alive who owns a car who could get by without one.
Disabled people who live in cities with inadequate public transporation?
posted by hijinx at 1:24 PM on December 17, 2021 [4 favorites]
Disabled people who live in cities with inadequate public transporation?
posted by hijinx at 1:24 PM on December 17, 2021 [4 favorites]
That's my point, people who have cars have them because they need them.
posted by bleep at 1:25 PM on December 17, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by bleep at 1:25 PM on December 17, 2021 [2 favorites]
That's my point, people who have cars have them because they need them.
Concur. I misread the message, so my apologies.
posted by hijinx at 1:27 PM on December 17, 2021 [3 favorites]
Concur. I misread the message, so my apologies.
posted by hijinx at 1:27 PM on December 17, 2021 [3 favorites]
Me: I gotta share that bit about the door from Philip K Dick.
Me: Hmm, Ctrl-F.
Yes, thank you, adamrice, for saving me the step of pulling out the quote.
At least we got some humor with Dick. Here, we just get Dicked. In two ways I suppose.
posted by symbioid at 1:33 PM on December 17, 2021 [3 favorites]
Me: Hmm, Ctrl-F.
Yes, thank you, adamrice, for saving me the step of pulling out the quote.
At least we got some humor with Dick. Here, we just get Dicked. In two ways I suppose.
posted by symbioid at 1:33 PM on December 17, 2021 [3 favorites]
The line is when they deliberately limit the car's systems to support their rent seeking.
There have been a lot of things over the years that repeatedly convinced me I'm never buying a Tesla, but the first I can remember was when they turned out to be charging an extra $3,000 to use the full range of the car's battery.
posted by nickmark at 1:35 PM on December 17, 2021 [5 favorites]
There have been a lot of things over the years that repeatedly convinced me I'm never buying a Tesla, but the first I can remember was when they turned out to be charging an extra $3,000 to use the full range of the car's battery.
posted by nickmark at 1:35 PM on December 17, 2021 [5 favorites]
Guess it's time I learn how to maintain a model T.
You're making a joke but this specifically is why pre-2000s cars remain prized among gearheads.
They're fun, and often cheaper than a modern car, provided you do the repairs yourself and can get the parts. They also tend not to be as safe, reliable, or quiet as something current, and I don't like to think about the emissions.
I'm always sad when a friend asks me to take a look at their newer car, because I know I can't fix it (the people I know with older vehicles usually know more than I do, so they don't ask me for help.)
Ludicrously onerous subscription services may have a silver lining, since they come with a financial incentive to their own circumvention. From a POSIWID perspective one might even say the more ludicrous the subscription, the more it is intentionally designed to be circumvented. (I doubt the legal system would see it that way, though, but it's exactly in the right to repair wheelhouse, so maybe that will save people from driving illegally hacked cars.)
posted by surlyben at 1:36 PM on December 17, 2021 [1 favorite]
You're making a joke but this specifically is why pre-2000s cars remain prized among gearheads.
They're fun, and often cheaper than a modern car, provided you do the repairs yourself and can get the parts. They also tend not to be as safe, reliable, or quiet as something current, and I don't like to think about the emissions.
I'm always sad when a friend asks me to take a look at their newer car, because I know I can't fix it (the people I know with older vehicles usually know more than I do, so they don't ask me for help.)
Ludicrously onerous subscription services may have a silver lining, since they come with a financial incentive to their own circumvention. From a POSIWID perspective one might even say the more ludicrous the subscription, the more it is intentionally designed to be circumvented. (I doubt the legal system would see it that way, though, but it's exactly in the right to repair wheelhouse, so maybe that will save people from driving illegally hacked cars.)
posted by surlyben at 1:36 PM on December 17, 2021 [1 favorite]
I have an old Elantra before all this electronic/remote bullshit. I like it. It hasn't been stolen. I've been thinking about getting another Hyundai because I liked this and reviews tend to be decent (and it's in my price range).
But lately I've been seeing news about how the most stolen car in Milwaukee (and in our area, Madison, too) being Hyundai and Kia (same parent company). I though surely they aren't that in demand, why so many stolen. Turns out they don't have the same ability to stop ignition or whatever so they're easier to steal. And I believe they're remote started/keyfob based?
I hate this electronic BS, and really think it's stupid they can't just go back to keys. I don't trust not having a physical key with a physical pattern to physically move a physical unlock cylinder or whatever. I do not trust technology. I hate technology.
And heaven forbid this sorta shit gets against the whole "right to repair". The BS DRM crap from 1998 with Clinton and Republicans gleefully "deregulating" Telecom while preventing us from actually deregulating our lives FROM telecom... what a great cash grab that was.
And all the jerks wanting to shove IoT down our throats. add on "blockchain"/web3/NFT whatever into this mix and we are screwed.
Did I say it? Yes, I did, but I reiterate: I hate technology.
posted by symbioid at 1:38 PM on December 17, 2021 [3 favorites]
But lately I've been seeing news about how the most stolen car in Milwaukee (and in our area, Madison, too) being Hyundai and Kia (same parent company). I though surely they aren't that in demand, why so many stolen. Turns out they don't have the same ability to stop ignition or whatever so they're easier to steal. And I believe they're remote started/keyfob based?
I hate this electronic BS, and really think it's stupid they can't just go back to keys. I don't trust not having a physical key with a physical pattern to physically move a physical unlock cylinder or whatever. I do not trust technology. I hate technology.
And heaven forbid this sorta shit gets against the whole "right to repair". The BS DRM crap from 1998 with Clinton and Republicans gleefully "deregulating" Telecom while preventing us from actually deregulating our lives FROM telecom... what a great cash grab that was.
And all the jerks wanting to shove IoT down our throats. add on "blockchain"/web3/NFT whatever into this mix and we are screwed.
Did I say it? Yes, I did, but I reiterate: I hate technology.
posted by symbioid at 1:38 PM on December 17, 2021 [3 favorites]
I'd be super pissed if I had to pay to open my car and I literally had no other way to open it. I have to use a car fob on my non-Toyota.
posted by jenfullmoon at 1:49 PM on December 17, 2021
posted by jenfullmoon at 1:49 PM on December 17, 2021
This is why the cars used in the Mad Max Fury Road are all pre-digital and electronics. If you have the right equipment, you can keep these cars running forever, even in a post-apocalyptic hellscape.
Technically all the cars in the other Mad Max movies are as well, but they were mostly made before electronics ran everything in the car.
posted by Badgermann at 2:03 PM on December 17, 2021 [1 favorite]
Technically all the cars in the other Mad Max movies are as well, but they were mostly made before electronics ran everything in the car.
posted by Badgermann at 2:03 PM on December 17, 2021 [1 favorite]
A reminder that in every community you think is wildly car dependent, has terrible or non-existent public transit and no infrastructure for active transportation, and it's impossible to live without a car, there's still right now a significant percentage of the population that does not have a car because they can't afford one, their car broke and they can't afford to fix it, they have disabilities that prevent them from driving, they can't afford a car modified to accommodate their disability, they're too young to drive (yes, kids deserve age-appropriate independence and mobility too), they can't afford parking, they don't know how to drive, they can't get a license because of their immigration status, their license is suspended, and so on. While there are certainly many people with disabilities who use cars as mobility aids and that's great, there are many non-drivers with disabilities, many live in zero-vehicle households, and their mobility needs are often wildly underserved.
That unreliable bus service that comes once every two hours if you're lucky and doesn't go where you want to go and doesn't run on the weekend and—oops it's time for a budget cut—we just cancelled it? That paratransit service where you have to book days in advance and aren't allowed to run more than one errand in a trip and have to wait hours outside in inclement weather until they show up? That's someone's primary form of mobility.
All of these groups have pressing transportation needs that are just as valid as anyone else's, and part of building a better world is that we have to accommodate their needs too instead of falling into the trap that we can just assume car ownership is the default and that just inherently works for everyone, because it's leaving millions and millions of people behind.
posted by zachlipton at 2:08 PM on December 17, 2021 [74 favorites]
That unreliable bus service that comes once every two hours if you're lucky and doesn't go where you want to go and doesn't run on the weekend and—oops it's time for a budget cut—we just cancelled it? That paratransit service where you have to book days in advance and aren't allowed to run more than one errand in a trip and have to wait hours outside in inclement weather until they show up? That's someone's primary form of mobility.
All of these groups have pressing transportation needs that are just as valid as anyone else's, and part of building a better world is that we have to accommodate their needs too instead of falling into the trap that we can just assume car ownership is the default and that just inherently works for everyone, because it's leaving millions and millions of people behind.
posted by zachlipton at 2:08 PM on December 17, 2021 [74 favorites]
I'd be super pissed if I had to pay to open my car and I literally had no other way to open it. I have to use a car fob on my non-Toyota.
AFAICT, the thing Toyota is charging subscription fees for is using a car fob to remotely start the engine. This is a feature I didn't pay for on my 2010 Subaru, and definitely wasn't available on my 1990 civic. I assume it's mostly useful in places that get cold, so the interior is warm as you commute to work.
posted by pwnguin at 2:10 PM on December 17, 2021 [1 favorite]
AFAICT, the thing Toyota is charging subscription fees for is using a car fob to remotely start the engine. This is a feature I didn't pay for on my 2010 Subaru, and definitely wasn't available on my 1990 civic. I assume it's mostly useful in places that get cold, so the interior is warm as you commute to work.
posted by pwnguin at 2:10 PM on December 17, 2021 [1 favorite]
No way a car company which has become this greedy is maintaining quality in manufacturing or parts, considering how easy it is to cut those corners.
So long, Toyota.
posted by jamjam at 2:12 PM on December 17, 2021 [7 favorites]
So long, Toyota.
posted by jamjam at 2:12 PM on December 17, 2021 [7 favorites]
Then when the trials ended (without us ever signing up) they spammed the heck out of us to subscribe. (We sure do like SiriusXM, though. We'll give that one a pass because it is beaming us music FROM SPACE.)
I took over my dad's car when he died. It's a 2009 car and I'm hoping it lasts a good long while, I take good care of it. My favorite thing was that he subscribed to SiriusXM so I get email from them probably every year asking if I want to get a free trial. Which I do, for a few months, and then it runs out and they offer me a few more months but for a $2 processing fee which I always say no to. I like listening to standup comedy in my car at all times but SiriusXM only really works well in places with good cell coverage which is not me unless I'm traveling a lot which is sometimes me and sometimes not me. So I cancel regularly (easy to cancel if you don't get good signal) and then the next year they ask me again and I get a few free months. It's about the only upside to this relentless freemium shit that comes with cars nowadays; I'm happy there's some small thing I've been able to wring out of it.
posted by jessamyn at 2:15 PM on December 17, 2021 [5 favorites]
I took over my dad's car when he died. It's a 2009 car and I'm hoping it lasts a good long while, I take good care of it. My favorite thing was that he subscribed to SiriusXM so I get email from them probably every year asking if I want to get a free trial. Which I do, for a few months, and then it runs out and they offer me a few more months but for a $2 processing fee which I always say no to. I like listening to standup comedy in my car at all times but SiriusXM only really works well in places with good cell coverage which is not me unless I'm traveling a lot which is sometimes me and sometimes not me. So I cancel regularly (easy to cancel if you don't get good signal) and then the next year they ask me again and I get a few free months. It's about the only upside to this relentless freemium shit that comes with cars nowadays; I'm happy there's some small thing I've been able to wring out of it.
posted by jessamyn at 2:15 PM on December 17, 2021 [5 favorites]
MSOffice is an egregious example. I've used Office 365 a few times and see not one bit of improvement, as I own no stock.
If I want to use the extra storage on my iPhone, that I paid for, to play more than 1 .mp3 from a file at a time, I have to subscribe to Apple Music, and have Internet access. I have a ton of files for a specific hobby and it would be nice to listen while I drive, but I guess not. Lots of Maine has shitty cell coverage/ no mobile Internet.
They call it a subscription model; it's really a price-gouging model. It's also Rich people can afford nice things, poor people can't, even used.
posted by theora55 at 2:19 PM on December 17, 2021 [9 favorites]
If I want to use the extra storage on my iPhone, that I paid for, to play more than 1 .mp3 from a file at a time, I have to subscribe to Apple Music, and have Internet access. I have a ton of files for a specific hobby and it would be nice to listen while I drive, but I guess not. Lots of Maine has shitty cell coverage/ no mobile Internet.
They call it a subscription model; it's really a price-gouging model. It's also Rich people can afford nice things, poor people can't, even used.
posted by theora55 at 2:19 PM on December 17, 2021 [9 favorites]
Just wait until they figure out that they can do it for airbags.
This Dystopian Biker Airbag Crash Vest Only Saves Your Ass If Your Subscription Is Paid Up
posted by clawsoon at 2:31 PM on December 17, 2021 [3 favorites]
This Dystopian Biker Airbag Crash Vest Only Saves Your Ass If Your Subscription Is Paid Up
posted by clawsoon at 2:31 PM on December 17, 2021 [3 favorites]
this specifically is why pre-2000s cars remain prized among gearheads.
And is why I curse Cash 4 Clunkers on a regular basis. I haven't seen a manual transmission Taurus SHO on CL in years.
posted by hwyengr at 2:47 PM on December 17, 2021 [3 favorites]
And is why I curse Cash 4 Clunkers on a regular basis. I haven't seen a manual transmission Taurus SHO on CL in years.
posted by hwyengr at 2:47 PM on December 17, 2021 [3 favorites]
There is no justification for charging a fee for using the fob.
Sure there is. It makes money.
Louis Rossmann says he's actually glad it's Toyota pulling this shit, because Toyota has always had a lot of marketplace goodwill. Once people see them doing this they might see the writing on the wall and understand that it's no longer just an aberration from control freaks like Tesla and John Deere. We soon won't be able to punish a brand for doing this by walking away from them unless we all start agitating seriously for right-to-repair and the principle that once you've paid for a thing it should be yours to use however you want, because if we don't do that, it won't be long before every vendor starts doing this.
posted by flabdablet at 3:04 PM on December 17, 2021 [9 favorites]
Sure there is. It makes money.
Louis Rossmann says he's actually glad it's Toyota pulling this shit, because Toyota has always had a lot of marketplace goodwill. Once people see them doing this they might see the writing on the wall and understand that it's no longer just an aberration from control freaks like Tesla and John Deere. We soon won't be able to punish a brand for doing this by walking away from them unless we all start agitating seriously for right-to-repair and the principle that once you've paid for a thing it should be yours to use however you want, because if we don't do that, it won't be long before every vendor starts doing this.
posted by flabdablet at 3:04 PM on December 17, 2021 [9 favorites]
That's my point, people who have cars have them because they need them.
I am not going to claim that it's common, but I have known and know of quite a number of people who don't actually need to own a car. At best they need to rent one a couple times a year. But you can have that option when you live in a city with a grocery store and pretty much everything else you could need regularly a couple blocks away at most and that also have lots of options to have things delivered.
That said, close enough to everyone in the US to be indistinguishable from literally everyone relies on road going motor cars and/or trucks, whether they use one or not, and even if you ignore what it took to build the structure they live in.
And for what it's worth, my 70 year old boss owned cars all his life until he just decided not to buy another one when the last one he owned finally became unrepairable. He just bikes everywhere or uses a combination of his bike and public transport when he's out in Berkeley where his wife lives. Never mind that her house is way up in the hills, he bikes up anyway.
That's not to criticize anyone, just to say that need isn't always the right word and that needs can change over time. A person may need a car today because it's suicidal to ride a bike thanks to bad infrastructure or work circumstances or whatever, but changes to the city may turn that need into a matter of convenience or even into a chore compared to other modes of transportation.
posted by wierdo at 3:05 PM on December 17, 2021 [9 favorites]
I am not going to claim that it's common, but I have known and know of quite a number of people who don't actually need to own a car. At best they need to rent one a couple times a year. But you can have that option when you live in a city with a grocery store and pretty much everything else you could need regularly a couple blocks away at most and that also have lots of options to have things delivered.
That said, close enough to everyone in the US to be indistinguishable from literally everyone relies on road going motor cars and/or trucks, whether they use one or not, and even if you ignore what it took to build the structure they live in.
And for what it's worth, my 70 year old boss owned cars all his life until he just decided not to buy another one when the last one he owned finally became unrepairable. He just bikes everywhere or uses a combination of his bike and public transport when he's out in Berkeley where his wife lives. Never mind that her house is way up in the hills, he bikes up anyway.
That's not to criticize anyone, just to say that need isn't always the right word and that needs can change over time. A person may need a car today because it's suicidal to ride a bike thanks to bad infrastructure or work circumstances or whatever, but changes to the city may turn that need into a matter of convenience or even into a chore compared to other modes of transportation.
posted by wierdo at 3:05 PM on December 17, 2021 [9 favorites]
38¢ lane change.
posted by clavdivs at 3:11 PM on December 17, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by clavdivs at 3:11 PM on December 17, 2021 [3 favorites]
What's next? Unauthorized bread?
posted by Multicellular Exothermic at 3:22 PM on December 17, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by Multicellular Exothermic at 3:22 PM on December 17, 2021 [1 favorite]
clavdivs: "38¢ lane change."
Same as in town car.
posted by chavenet at 3:24 PM on December 17, 2021 [28 favorites]
Same as in town car.
posted by chavenet at 3:24 PM on December 17, 2021 [28 favorites]
SiriusXM only really works well in places with good cell coverage
SXM has an Internet-based streaming service, but the car radios don't use it, just for the record. Your problem is likely mountains between you and the satellites. When Sirius launched, they used satellites in an eccentric orbit that kept them quite high in the sky to avoid that problem, but since the merger they've been launching satellites into the same orbits used by the XM satellites, which are always to the south and at a pretty low angle for folks up north. (Which is why they have tens of thousands of ground-based repeaters in cities all over the country)
I'm pretty sure one of the original Sirius satellites is still in use, so if you've got a Sirius radio in the car (as opposed to an XM radio), you should get good reception for about 8-10 hours a day when the satellite is higher in the sky than the others.
Not that it particularly matters to your situation, I just think it's interesting on a technical level and have a hard time not talking about it when the subject comes up.
posted by wierdo at 3:24 PM on December 17, 2021 [31 favorites]
SXM has an Internet-based streaming service, but the car radios don't use it, just for the record. Your problem is likely mountains between you and the satellites. When Sirius launched, they used satellites in an eccentric orbit that kept them quite high in the sky to avoid that problem, but since the merger they've been launching satellites into the same orbits used by the XM satellites, which are always to the south and at a pretty low angle for folks up north. (Which is why they have tens of thousands of ground-based repeaters in cities all over the country)
I'm pretty sure one of the original Sirius satellites is still in use, so if you've got a Sirius radio in the car (as opposed to an XM radio), you should get good reception for about 8-10 hours a day when the satellite is higher in the sky than the others.
Not that it particularly matters to your situation, I just think it's interesting on a technical level and have a hard time not talking about it when the subject comes up.
posted by wierdo at 3:24 PM on December 17, 2021 [31 favorites]
The heavily indebted parents received their newborn with the latest technological enhancements meant to extract as much value as possible during its life-span, in order to ensure that the debt and interest accrued was paid in a timely manner, in accordance with the law. Mechanical valves were fitted on every internal and external orifice and micro-fees were charged for each use of the valve, and were to be paid on a rolling basis, contingent upon the credit rating of the parents (hourly/daily/weekly/monthly/yearly), in order for the valves to work properly.
Obviously it would be in the creditors best interests to keep the new financialized debt obligation alive for as long as possible, so rather than allowing the termination of the new life if the heavily indebted parents were unable to keep up with their legal obligations, the valves were designed to make the new life form as miserable as possible, so as to constantly remind the parents of their unpaid debt. The new life form was also equipped with the latest defense mechanisms which charged a high premium for use, every time the parents inevitably tried to evade their debt.
posted by nikoniko at 3:30 PM on December 17, 2021 [7 favorites]
Obviously it would be in the creditors best interests to keep the new financialized debt obligation alive for as long as possible, so rather than allowing the termination of the new life if the heavily indebted parents were unable to keep up with their legal obligations, the valves were designed to make the new life form as miserable as possible, so as to constantly remind the parents of their unpaid debt. The new life form was also equipped with the latest defense mechanisms which charged a high premium for use, every time the parents inevitably tried to evade their debt.
posted by nikoniko at 3:30 PM on December 17, 2021 [7 favorites]
Toyota unintended acceleration case My Toyota had this problem that my mechanic finally figured out after hours. He told me it was really dangerous and to get rid of the car, which I did. It was in 1997, years before some other people were seriously injured or died from this computer glitch. So I find this sort of trend in cars unsavory.
posted by effluvia at 3:47 PM on December 17, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by effluvia at 3:47 PM on December 17, 2021 [4 favorites]
The problem with our business model is that it fucks people over, we were hoping for something that would fuck them and fuck them and fuck them.
posted by biffa at 3:47 PM on December 17, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by biffa at 3:47 PM on December 17, 2021 [5 favorites]
I was waffling between a Civic and an Impreza on a recent car purchase and swung to Honda when I found that Toyota (including Subaru and Lexus) was backing the Trump administration in the battle over California's emissions regulationS. GM and Fiat/Chrysler we’re the other Trump allies.
posted by brachiopod at 4:14 PM on December 17, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by brachiopod at 4:14 PM on December 17, 2021 [6 favorites]
De-fund cars. Build more bike lanes.
posted by signal at 4:26 PM on December 17, 2021 [9 favorites]
posted by signal at 4:26 PM on December 17, 2021 [9 favorites]
I have never had an interest in remote starting my car. My car is close to my house, and I live in a reasonably temperate region. I would very happily trade losing that capability for a cheaper car. This is a good thing for me. I'm disappointed that the immediate response of MeFi folks to additional options provided by the market is to demand that I pay for things that have no value to me.
posted by saeculorum at 4:33 PM on December 17, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by saeculorum at 4:33 PM on December 17, 2021 [2 favorites]
The door refused to open. It said, "Five cents, please."
He searched his pockets. No more coins; nothing. "I'll pay you tomorrow," he told the door. Again it remained locked tight.
“Charlie handed in his dime at the Kendall Square station and he changed for Jamaica Plain, when he got there the conductor told him ’one more nickel’ or Charlie couldn’t get off of that train”
posted by bendy at 4:35 PM on December 17, 2021 [10 favorites]
He searched his pockets. No more coins; nothing. "I'll pay you tomorrow," he told the door. Again it remained locked tight.
“Charlie handed in his dime at the Kendall Square station and he changed for Jamaica Plain, when he got there the conductor told him ’one more nickel’ or Charlie couldn’t get off of that train”
posted by bendy at 4:35 PM on December 17, 2021 [10 favorites]
Just wait until they start streaming ads into your dashboard.Already happening for years even with simple FM using RDS.
posted by sudogeek at 4:37 PM on December 17, 2021 [1 favorite]
theora55: If I want to use the extra storage on my iPhone, that I paid for, to play more than 1 .mp3 from a file at a time, I have to subscribe to Apple Music, and have Internet access. I have a ton of files for a specific hobby and it would be nice to listen while I drive, but I guess not. Lots of Maine has shitty cell coverage/ no mobile Internet.
VLC is available on the App Store and has a wifi file sharing feature that will let you load files directly to the iPhone without the need for iTunes or jail breaking. Some of my commute has spotty internet underground and is great for loading whatever media file I want.
posted by dr_dank at 4:44 PM on December 17, 2021 [5 favorites]
VLC is available on the App Store and has a wifi file sharing feature that will let you load files directly to the iPhone without the need for iTunes or jail breaking. Some of my commute has spotty internet underground and is great for loading whatever media file I want.
posted by dr_dank at 4:44 PM on December 17, 2021 [5 favorites]
Is this where the luddites are? Can I join?
My 2001 Subaru just died (206k! But I can't afford new head gaskets with everything else that's worn or close to dead) and I'm in the unfortunate position of trying to buy a car in America in 2021. The things I'm interested in? Jeep Cherokee, Ford Ranger, Toyota Tacoma, Toyota Forerunner. Old ones, before they all got giant or stopped production. All 10-20 years old and commanding premium prices for something in decent condition. Ridiculous supply chain issues used car prices!
I drove a new rental Kia recently. It felt like a cheap spaceship, but I have a dog and need to strap plywood and metal to the top on a regular basis for work (thus even getting a car in the first place, while living in one of the few cities in America where you actually don't need one and most people don't have one).
Bah humbug!
posted by jellywerker at 4:53 PM on December 17, 2021 [4 favorites]
My 2001 Subaru just died (206k! But I can't afford new head gaskets with everything else that's worn or close to dead) and I'm in the unfortunate position of trying to buy a car in America in 2021. The things I'm interested in? Jeep Cherokee, Ford Ranger, Toyota Tacoma, Toyota Forerunner. Old ones, before they all got giant or stopped production. All 10-20 years old and commanding premium prices for something in decent condition. Ridiculous supply chain issues used car prices!
I drove a new rental Kia recently. It felt like a cheap spaceship, but I have a dog and need to strap plywood and metal to the top on a regular basis for work (thus even getting a car in the first place, while living in one of the few cities in America where you actually don't need one and most people don't have one).
Bah humbug!
posted by jellywerker at 4:53 PM on December 17, 2021 [4 favorites]
Next they are going to change from an industry that sells products and services to an industry that sell products and services to an industry that sells products and services.
posted by Saxon Kane at 4:59 PM on December 17, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by Saxon Kane at 4:59 PM on December 17, 2021 [1 favorite]
Subarus-- the head gaskets or the timing belt is what gets you eventually. It is the national car of Alaska, so I'm very familiar with the struggle.
My car is a very unsmart 16-year-old Impreza that grows frost on the inside but is otherwise OK. I did not want power windows or locks because more parts = more parts that can freeze shut, but they don't really make that any more that also has AWD. If they try to get me to pay for a car I already own, I swear to god I'll sell it and get a fatbike or a kicksled for winter and to hell with driving.
posted by blnkfrnk at 5:03 PM on December 17, 2021 [2 favorites]
My car is a very unsmart 16-year-old Impreza that grows frost on the inside but is otherwise OK. I did not want power windows or locks because more parts = more parts that can freeze shut, but they don't really make that any more that also has AWD. If they try to get me to pay for a car I already own, I swear to god I'll sell it and get a fatbike or a kicksled for winter and to hell with driving.
posted by blnkfrnk at 5:03 PM on December 17, 2021 [2 favorites]
Wanna come over and Key Fob and no Chill?
posted by srboisvert at 5:04 PM on December 17, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by srboisvert at 5:04 PM on December 17, 2021 [1 favorite]
What's unfortunate about shifts like this is that they (very rightfully) annoy or even infuriate a significant number of people, but then they are somewhat normalized over time and with a younger population who has no basis for comparison with what has come before.
For those of us old enough (sigh) to remember the very early days of cable tv taking hold, part of the real appeal was the promise of reduced commercial intrusion ... right? because you're paying a monthly fee which makes commercials far less necessary to monetize your favorite shows, right? Does anyone remember those very early days or am I romanticizing the past.... I'd swear that was part of the deal, and yet ... here we are or at least have been (though internet access and the more recent various enhanced features have somewhat complicated my point ... at least some companies provide the tech needed to get around these intrusions somewhat) ...
point being, anyone born after cable tv became commonplace would just take commercial intrusion as a given + not really question it .... + shifts like monetizing features thru subscription model could take hold sooner than we'd like and younger people born afterwards would probably just accept it, more or less...unfortunately
posted by clandestiny's child at 5:16 PM on December 17, 2021 [29 favorites]
For those of us old enough (sigh) to remember the very early days of cable tv taking hold, part of the real appeal was the promise of reduced commercial intrusion ... right? because you're paying a monthly fee which makes commercials far less necessary to monetize your favorite shows, right? Does anyone remember those very early days or am I romanticizing the past.... I'd swear that was part of the deal, and yet ... here we are or at least have been (though internet access and the more recent various enhanced features have somewhat complicated my point ... at least some companies provide the tech needed to get around these intrusions somewhat) ...
point being, anyone born after cable tv became commonplace would just take commercial intrusion as a given + not really question it .... + shifts like monetizing features thru subscription model could take hold sooner than we'd like and younger people born afterwards would probably just accept it, more or less...unfortunately
posted by clandestiny's child at 5:16 PM on December 17, 2021 [29 favorites]
De-fund cars.
There were experts saying we've been globally approaching "Peak Car" even before the pandemic:
posted by FJT at 5:20 PM on December 17, 2021 [2 favorites]
There were experts saying we've been globally approaching "Peak Car" even before the pandemic:
What has caused this change of heart? Peak-car theorists attribute it to several overlapping factors. Most people now live in cities, most vehicle miles are driven in cities rather than rural areas, and the decline in driving is chiefly a decline in urban driving. The cost and hassle of car ownership has increased as traffic congestion has increased and cities have introduced congestion charging zones and pedestrianized parts of city centers and made parking scarcer and more expensive. For many urbanites, but particularly the young, cars are no longer regarded as essential, as smartphones let them shop and socialize online. The steady shift toward e-commerce also means cars are needed for fewer shopping trips. And when a car is needed, for a weekend away or to help a friend move house, car-sharing and rental services are readily accessible.Subscriptions might just be carmakers facing the reality that the boom days are over.
posted by FJT at 5:20 PM on December 17, 2021 [2 favorites]
This stuff sucks in my opinion, but it's a bit tricky to find a principled argument against it (if we assume that everything is done openly with full notice and the seller abides by the terms they lay out).
(This is an example of what economists call "price discrimination." In my experience, price discrimination is one of the topics with the biggest gap between having a conviction that it's wrong, and being able to explain why it's wrong. My current general working hypothesis is it's got something to do with bargaining power. Being able to make finer price distinctions let's the company put you in a one-down situation, where it's easier to take advantage of you in various ways.)
posted by grobstein at 5:21 PM on December 17, 2021 [1 favorite]
(This is an example of what economists call "price discrimination." In my experience, price discrimination is one of the topics with the biggest gap between having a conviction that it's wrong, and being able to explain why it's wrong. My current general working hypothesis is it's got something to do with bargaining power. Being able to make finer price distinctions let's the company put you in a one-down situation, where it's easier to take advantage of you in various ways.)
posted by grobstein at 5:21 PM on December 17, 2021 [1 favorite]
Also, I just remembered that Biden's Build Back Better plan (if it passes) will stop new sales of gas-powered private cars by 2035. So, even though a lot of people are going to talk big about maintaining their gas cars until the sun explodes, I think most people are just going to get an EV unless they can find a way to convert their gas-engine cars to be powered by spite.
posted by FJT at 5:39 PM on December 17, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by FJT at 5:39 PM on December 17, 2021 [3 favorites]
I can imagine someone losing airbag service because of a credit card issue right before a crash.
posted by NoThisIsPatrick at 6:16 PM on December 17, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by NoThisIsPatrick at 6:16 PM on December 17, 2021 [2 favorites]
Someone could make a bunch of magnetic door signs that say ‘Don’t Buy a Toyota or You’ll Regret it Just Like I Do', and then Toyota owners could offer Toyota a subscription to keep them off their cars.
posted by jamjam at 6:25 PM on December 17, 2021 [14 favorites]
posted by jamjam at 6:25 PM on December 17, 2021 [14 favorites]
Eyebrows McGee > Guess it's time I learn how to maintain a model T.
Here’s a few Google resources to get you started: How to Maintain a Model T. Call me old-fashioned, but it would very cool to work on a Model T while watching YouTube how-tos on a smart phone.
posted by cenoxo at 6:29 PM on December 17, 2021 [4 favorites]
Here’s a few Google resources to get you started: How to Maintain a Model T. Call me old-fashioned, but it would very cool to work on a Model T while watching YouTube how-tos on a smart phone.
posted by cenoxo at 6:29 PM on December 17, 2021 [4 favorites]
Well Tesla also prevents passengers in their back seat from exiting if there's a power loss so it's pretty not great if there's a fire and people can't open the doors to get out the back. There's a lot that should be regulated in cars that isn't and Tesla loves to find those boundaries.
posted by Carillon at 6:37 PM on December 17, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by Carillon at 6:37 PM on December 17, 2021 [5 favorites]
For those of us old enough (sigh) to remember the very early days of cable tv taking hold, part of the real appeal was the promise of reduced commercial intrusion
Yes! This was a big part of why it was so great. It didn't feel like network television with crap commercials and corporate sleaze everywhere. It felt like the Wild West. Now we pay for premium channels and still get ads or still have to pay for many movies within that paid subscription (Amazon). Quite a fleecing we get!
posted by Liquidwolf at 6:39 PM on December 17, 2021 [5 favorites]
I'm disappointed that the immediate response of MeFi folks to additional options provided by the market is to demand that I pay for things that have no value to me.
What makes you think they're going to lower the cost to buy in the long run because of this? This is just gravy on top for them.
posted by Candleman at 6:43 PM on December 17, 2021 [6 favorites]
What makes you think they're going to lower the cost to buy in the long run because of this? This is just gravy on top for them.
posted by Candleman at 6:43 PM on December 17, 2021 [6 favorites]
Biden's Build Back Better plan (if it passes) will stop new sales of gas-powered private cars by 2035. So, even though a lot of people are going to talk big about maintaining their gas cars until the sun explodes, I think most people are just going to ...
...continue maintaining their existing ICE cars with what I'm sure will be a robust availability of OEM aftermarket replacement parts for at least the next 10-15 years after that. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
posted by Greg_Ace at 6:46 PM on December 17, 2021 [2 favorites]
...continue maintaining their existing ICE cars with what I'm sure will be a robust availability of OEM aftermarket replacement parts for at least the next 10-15 years after that. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
posted by Greg_Ace at 6:46 PM on December 17, 2021 [2 favorites]
I was working an event called “Dawn or Doom” 5+ years ago and one of the scenarios described was: You’re driving in your self driving car and heading home. Your smart home knows that on Thursdays you usually like to relax and have a glass of wine and take a long hot shower. You refrigerator pings your car to suggest that you veer off course to pick up wine on the way home, since you’re out. It confidently gives you the location of a number of shops that have the wine in stock, and those shops send a coupon to your dashboard, enticing you to go to the shop with the best deal.
Now, this was after Amazon Prime existed, I believe, but the level of on demand shopping and quick shipping wasn’t like it is today. I assume these days a drone would deliver the wine to your house. But the idea of losing autonomy, and being steered (literally) into a particular action is terrifying.
I feel like this nickel and dimming, is getting out of hand, but I don’t see it stopping any time soon. Last week one of the ideas that was spitballed during a workshop I was working was dynamic pricing at a not quite fast food place to drive customer behavior. I’m not a Luddite, I like technology but you can bet I held on to my Adobe Creative Suite 6 until my computer literally couldn’t run it any more. I’d love an Applewatch/Fitbit etc. but years ago I worked workshops where insurance companies were spitballing using blockchain to manage dynamic pricing of health insurance based on your live fitness tracker data. I looked into who owns my data and it’s not me, so I’ve resisted the convenience for now. I like owning things and controlling how I use them, but also like new features so what’s a person to do?
posted by Bunglegirl at 6:57 PM on December 17, 2021 [5 favorites]
Now, this was after Amazon Prime existed, I believe, but the level of on demand shopping and quick shipping wasn’t like it is today. I assume these days a drone would deliver the wine to your house. But the idea of losing autonomy, and being steered (literally) into a particular action is terrifying.
I feel like this nickel and dimming, is getting out of hand, but I don’t see it stopping any time soon. Last week one of the ideas that was spitballed during a workshop I was working was dynamic pricing at a not quite fast food place to drive customer behavior. I’m not a Luddite, I like technology but you can bet I held on to my Adobe Creative Suite 6 until my computer literally couldn’t run it any more. I’d love an Applewatch/Fitbit etc. but years ago I worked workshops where insurance companies were spitballing using blockchain to manage dynamic pricing of health insurance based on your live fitness tracker data. I looked into who owns my data and it’s not me, so I’ve resisted the convenience for now. I like owning things and controlling how I use them, but also like new features so what’s a person to do?
posted by Bunglegirl at 6:57 PM on December 17, 2021 [5 favorites]
I daily drive a 1999 Mazda. I have the tools, knowledge, and requisite spite to keep this car running forever. You can pry my dumb metal key from my cold dead hands.
I also drove a rental Tesla recently and the EV part of the car is so awesome. The driving dynamics, the immediate acceleration, one pedal driving, fantastic. Even the screen as a control panel, which I though I'd hate, was pretty well thought out and intuitive. The visibility through the windshield, due to lack of an engine obstructing the driver's view, was a revelation. There's a lot of dumb features (door handles, the ridiculous dance you have to do with the key card to lock the damn door) to be sure but to Tesla's credit, they did knock the driving part of the vehicle out of the park.
All of which is to say that I'd still never buy a Tesla because I don't want to pay 50k for a car that I'm not sure will still be driveable in 10 years not because of any physical defect, but because Tesla just might decide to no longer support some software package. If all I have is Elon's word, then that's a hard pass for me.
posted by dudemanlives at 6:58 PM on December 17, 2021 [2 favorites]
I also drove a rental Tesla recently and the EV part of the car is so awesome. The driving dynamics, the immediate acceleration, one pedal driving, fantastic. Even the screen as a control panel, which I though I'd hate, was pretty well thought out and intuitive. The visibility through the windshield, due to lack of an engine obstructing the driver's view, was a revelation. There's a lot of dumb features (door handles, the ridiculous dance you have to do with the key card to lock the damn door) to be sure but to Tesla's credit, they did knock the driving part of the vehicle out of the park.
All of which is to say that I'd still never buy a Tesla because I don't want to pay 50k for a car that I'm not sure will still be driveable in 10 years not because of any physical defect, but because Tesla just might decide to no longer support some software package. If all I have is Elon's word, then that's a hard pass for me.
posted by dudemanlives at 6:58 PM on December 17, 2021 [2 favorites]
We own four cars: 2012 Sienna, 2012 RAV, 2011 Outback, and a sweet 2005 Camry LE in silver for the then-youngest driver in the family.
No heated seats or lane-minders. Only the minivan has a back-up camera. The Camry's tape deck failed about a decade ago, which made me sad. Would I like these things? Maybe, but not enough to add them -- and NFW am I going to subscribe to any of them.
posted by wenestvedt at 7:05 PM on December 17, 2021 [1 favorite]
No heated seats or lane-minders. Only the minivan has a back-up camera. The Camry's tape deck failed about a decade ago, which made me sad. Would I like these things? Maybe, but not enough to add them -- and NFW am I going to subscribe to any of them.
posted by wenestvedt at 7:05 PM on December 17, 2021 [1 favorite]
...continue maintaining their existing ICE cars with what I'm sure will be a robust availability of OEM aftermarket replacement parts for at least the next 10-15 years after that.
Because I'm also sure Big Oil will be thrilled to continue selling gas/petrol and diesel fuel to those people as long as there's existing reserves and a market to sell them to.
And that's because regardless of all the praise rightfully heaped upon EVs, public transportation, or any other alternatives available, they still don't offer the same instant utility/perceived "freedom" of owning a personal vehicle that can at a moment's notice be driven for hundreds of miles wherever the owner wants (wherever there's a road), and be refilled within 5 minutes in order to drive hundreds more. Get back to me when inexpensive low-end EVs have a 400+ mile range and can be recharged in a few minutes instead of hours at as many places as there are now gas stations - and don't have the subscription model of auto "ownership" baked into them - and that equation might change.
I'm not trying to be smug or militant. I'm just going on what I know of what humans tend to do, in the face of overwhelming evidence that it's not the best way forward.
posted by Greg_Ace at 7:07 PM on December 17, 2021 [4 favorites]
Because I'm also sure Big Oil will be thrilled to continue selling gas/petrol and diesel fuel to those people as long as there's existing reserves and a market to sell them to.
And that's because regardless of all the praise rightfully heaped upon EVs, public transportation, or any other alternatives available, they still don't offer the same instant utility/perceived "freedom" of owning a personal vehicle that can at a moment's notice be driven for hundreds of miles wherever the owner wants (wherever there's a road), and be refilled within 5 minutes in order to drive hundreds more. Get back to me when inexpensive low-end EVs have a 400+ mile range and can be recharged in a few minutes instead of hours at as many places as there are now gas stations - and don't have the subscription model of auto "ownership" baked into them - and that equation might change.
I'm not trying to be smug or militant. I'm just going on what I know of what humans tend to do, in the face of overwhelming evidence that it's not the best way forward.
posted by Greg_Ace at 7:07 PM on December 17, 2021 [4 favorites]
There may well be a market for digging through junkyards for spare parts for sunsetted ICE cars, but probably not everyone has the spite or energy required to keep doing that indefinitely. Gas will probably have to get taxed at higher and higher rates to deter usage, until it becomes too expensive to buy for anyone but a classic car collector.
We're going to EV, no question. What remains is the ownership model. A lot of rare earth metals go into these. They may be too expensive or valuable for anyone but the richest individuals to own. We might go a lease/rental model. Or sharing ownership. Or self-driving algorithms get sorted out and we buy rides to places from some larger company that owns the EVs and distributes them to locales for pickups and drop-offs.
I suspect what Volvo, BMW and others are doing are experiments to trial different business models, in case these become the only ways to keep generating sufficient revenue from making cars, to answer to shareholders.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 7:19 PM on December 17, 2021
We're going to EV, no question. What remains is the ownership model. A lot of rare earth metals go into these. They may be too expensive or valuable for anyone but the richest individuals to own. We might go a lease/rental model. Or sharing ownership. Or self-driving algorithms get sorted out and we buy rides to places from some larger company that owns the EVs and distributes them to locales for pickups and drop-offs.
I suspect what Volvo, BMW and others are doing are experiments to trial different business models, in case these become the only ways to keep generating sufficient revenue from making cars, to answer to shareholders.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 7:19 PM on December 17, 2021
My though is this might be self defeating. Things like premium sound, remote start, heated seats, etc are currently generally packaged together at a significant premium over the base car. IE: they make way more money on full load vehicles vs stripper models because the factory package is easier and well integrated. But if things are going to stop working that's a big negative. Why not just buy the stripper, take the car directly to your favourite custom shop, and get them to add $2000 of premium head unit, remote start, heated seats, etc that will never stop working because of a lack of subscription. It'll probably cost less to boot. Especially now that people's phones can be the interface for most things.
Tesla's upfront "lifetime" model is even more insane. Because it doesn't transfer it is a significant disincentive to upgrade to a new Tesla and you defacto take a bigger depreciation hit when you do sell the car.
Making a subscription for the car software stack ensures there's an incentive to keep things updated, and keep paying some team to work on continuously improving it and making sure it runs on older cars owned by people paying their subscription: If the software stops working, they lose the subscription.
LOL. They'll invest just enough to keep it working. I sure wouldn't expect a security update. And considering the most likely software defect after a couple years is the subscription authorization system the whole thing starts looking like a protection racket. "Should would be a shame if something were to happen to your rear view camera"
posted by Mitheral at 7:33 PM on December 17, 2021 [5 favorites]
Tesla's upfront "lifetime" model is even more insane. Because it doesn't transfer it is a significant disincentive to upgrade to a new Tesla and you defacto take a bigger depreciation hit when you do sell the car.
Making a subscription for the car software stack ensures there's an incentive to keep things updated, and keep paying some team to work on continuously improving it and making sure it runs on older cars owned by people paying their subscription: If the software stops working, they lose the subscription.
LOL. They'll invest just enough to keep it working. I sure wouldn't expect a security update. And considering the most likely software defect after a couple years is the subscription authorization system the whole thing starts looking like a protection racket. "Should would be a shame if something were to happen to your rear view camera"
posted by Mitheral at 7:33 PM on December 17, 2021 [5 favorites]
caution live frogs, I also bought a new car this year and the automatic Sirius announcement made me insane with rage immediately. In addition to this I had what seems to be an unusual amount of difficulty getting connected services (the myChevy app) set up, so I spent A LOT of time talking to Onstar operators in my car in the first week. During one frustrated conversation I said, “Make this announcement stop or I will drive this car immediately to the dealership and demand my money back.” Lo and behold, it stopped. So—pitch a fit to Onstar, If you have it, and they’ll turn it off for you too.
posted by Sublimity at 7:43 PM on December 17, 2021 [8 favorites]
posted by Sublimity at 7:43 PM on December 17, 2021 [8 favorites]
Get back to me when the Thwaites glacier collapses.
The transportation sector is the largest source of carbon emissions, and one of the main sources that's growing instead of shrinking. And while much of decarbonization relies on centralized efforts like transforming the electric grid, where the work is primarily done by utilities and industry, transportation is one where many of us simply will have to change our behavior and expectations, and even just switching to electric vehicles isn't nearly enough.
The "freedom" of everyone owning a fossil fuel burning 2-ton metal box has enormous societal costs: carbon emissions, air pollution and its negative health impacts, 39,000 annual US traffic deaths and countless more serious injuries, the impact on our built environments of needing parking everywhere, significantly increasing the cost of housing during a nationwide housing crisis, those left stranded because they can't drive/own a car, etc... That's not a personal judgement because the vast majority of us do need to drive right now, but new ownership models could be an important way to provide better incentives here toward everyone matching different mobility options to their particular needs and pricing some of these costs into the equation.
posted by zachlipton at 7:46 PM on December 17, 2021 [6 favorites]
The transportation sector is the largest source of carbon emissions, and one of the main sources that's growing instead of shrinking. And while much of decarbonization relies on centralized efforts like transforming the electric grid, where the work is primarily done by utilities and industry, transportation is one where many of us simply will have to change our behavior and expectations, and even just switching to electric vehicles isn't nearly enough.
The "freedom" of everyone owning a fossil fuel burning 2-ton metal box has enormous societal costs: carbon emissions, air pollution and its negative health impacts, 39,000 annual US traffic deaths and countless more serious injuries, the impact on our built environments of needing parking everywhere, significantly increasing the cost of housing during a nationwide housing crisis, those left stranded because they can't drive/own a car, etc... That's not a personal judgement because the vast majority of us do need to drive right now, but new ownership models could be an important way to provide better incentives here toward everyone matching different mobility options to their particular needs and pricing some of these costs into the equation.
posted by zachlipton at 7:46 PM on December 17, 2021 [6 favorites]
I am FASCINATED by that $9,000/year cost to own a car, so I looked up the AAA study and I'm working out my own costs now. From AAA "These vehicles were then assessed across six categories of expenses: fuel, maintenance/repair/tire costs, insurance, license/registration/taxes, depreciation and finance charges."
Okay, so, my current car is entering its 12th year of ownership by me, and I paid $12,000 for it, slightly used, with 30,000 miles on it. But nota bene for the rest of this comment, I just rolled over 80,000 miles on my car after 12 years. I really, really do not drive very much. The average American drives 14,000 miles/year; I appear to drive 4,000/year. (And less, these days; I used to have to drive 600 miles round trip to visit my family, 2-3 times a year; now I live 3 miles from my mom.) I paid cash on the nail, and I'm not fussed about depreciation because I drive my cars into the ground (this is only my SECOND CAR EVER! and I'm 43), so we'll call that $1,000/year.
I live in an "expensive" insurance state, but I pay $585.20/year in insurance, because I am a woman in her 40s driving a minivan with a clean-as-a-whistle driving record, who drives less than 4,000 miles/year.
State registration is $119/year, plus $35 to my town for a town sticker (mandatory). (Bonus, I can pay my cat's rabies vaccination registration on the same form as I pay my town sticker registration.)
AAA says maintenance costs $1500/year on average which makes me want to FAINT. I've had two major services done on my current car (one about $2100, one about $1000), but otherwise it's been oil changes, fluid top-ups, and new tires twice (for about $500 each time). So let's say $4100 in big maintenance plus $100/year in routine maintenance, over 12 years, which puts me at about $450/year. (Which, ugh, that's a lot, because when I think about it, I only think about the routine maintenance!) I sold my last car (after about 12 years) when the maintenance costs were starting to approach the Blue Book value of the car, but also, I couldn't fit the necessary car seats in my first car.
Which leaves gas. When I lived in a less walking-friendly place, I filled up twice a month (but gas was cheaper then). Before Covid, where I live now, I filled up about 15 times a year at around $35/tank. (During Covid, I went six months without needing gas.) So let's call it $525/year in gas.
Which is a grand total of $2714/year in vehicle costs and I feel like JESUS if it cost me $9,000/year I would be VERY UNHAPPY.
On the third hand, a monthly train pass to downtown Chicago from where I live costs $200/month, or $1200/year. Which, CLEARLY that needs to be way better subsidized by taxes. Although also? I'm not a LUNATIC so I have NEVER commuted into Chicago by car, $1200 is a bargain compared to the yearly costs of operating a car during rush hour and paying for downtown parking. But I'd have absolutely paid for a monthly train pass and monthly parking pass (at the train station) to NOT HAVE TO DRIVE IN CHICAGO COMMUTE TRAFFIC, although that'd take my car+commute costs way closer to the average car costs. (And again, we chose where to move, four years ago, based on its walkability/bikeability to the train station (and a small full-service downtown), so we wouldn't have to pay for driving to the train and parking at the train.)
But this is all to say, I think probably the single biggest ROI that we get on all our transit options is that my husband is on our town's bike committee, and attends a meeting 6 times a year for 1-2 hours where they work to make the town more bike- and pedestrian-friendly. Better bike storage at the train station, better bike lanes on major roads, better bike safety training for local school kids, better cars-assaulting-bikes enforcement from the local police. When there's no snow on the ground, I can run ALMOST all my errands by bike (with two adolescent boys, both of whom are constructed primarily of black holes, grocery trips require a car; and getting to big boxes like Target is not really bike-accessible), and that's largely due to the bike committee. (I am fat, and slow on my bike, but my town is safe enough for bicyclists that I can ride pretty much anywhere in town and feel safe, and get there eventually.)
I would like it if my car had integrated bluetooth. That's the one thing that my econobox is lacking that I feel like would improve my life.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:48 PM on December 17, 2021 [8 favorites]
Okay, so, my current car is entering its 12th year of ownership by me, and I paid $12,000 for it, slightly used, with 30,000 miles on it. But nota bene for the rest of this comment, I just rolled over 80,000 miles on my car after 12 years. I really, really do not drive very much. The average American drives 14,000 miles/year; I appear to drive 4,000/year. (And less, these days; I used to have to drive 600 miles round trip to visit my family, 2-3 times a year; now I live 3 miles from my mom.) I paid cash on the nail, and I'm not fussed about depreciation because I drive my cars into the ground (this is only my SECOND CAR EVER! and I'm 43), so we'll call that $1,000/year.
I live in an "expensive" insurance state, but I pay $585.20/year in insurance, because I am a woman in her 40s driving a minivan with a clean-as-a-whistle driving record, who drives less than 4,000 miles/year.
State registration is $119/year, plus $35 to my town for a town sticker (mandatory). (Bonus, I can pay my cat's rabies vaccination registration on the same form as I pay my town sticker registration.)
AAA says maintenance costs $1500/year on average which makes me want to FAINT. I've had two major services done on my current car (one about $2100, one about $1000), but otherwise it's been oil changes, fluid top-ups, and new tires twice (for about $500 each time). So let's say $4100 in big maintenance plus $100/year in routine maintenance, over 12 years, which puts me at about $450/year. (Which, ugh, that's a lot, because when I think about it, I only think about the routine maintenance!) I sold my last car (after about 12 years) when the maintenance costs were starting to approach the Blue Book value of the car, but also, I couldn't fit the necessary car seats in my first car.
Which leaves gas. When I lived in a less walking-friendly place, I filled up twice a month (but gas was cheaper then). Before Covid, where I live now, I filled up about 15 times a year at around $35/tank. (During Covid, I went six months without needing gas.) So let's call it $525/year in gas.
Which is a grand total of $2714/year in vehicle costs and I feel like JESUS if it cost me $9,000/year I would be VERY UNHAPPY.
On the third hand, a monthly train pass to downtown Chicago from where I live costs $200/month, or $1200/year. Which, CLEARLY that needs to be way better subsidized by taxes. Although also? I'm not a LUNATIC so I have NEVER commuted into Chicago by car, $1200 is a bargain compared to the yearly costs of operating a car during rush hour and paying for downtown parking. But I'd have absolutely paid for a monthly train pass and monthly parking pass (at the train station) to NOT HAVE TO DRIVE IN CHICAGO COMMUTE TRAFFIC, although that'd take my car+commute costs way closer to the average car costs. (And again, we chose where to move, four years ago, based on its walkability/bikeability to the train station (and a small full-service downtown), so we wouldn't have to pay for driving to the train and parking at the train.)
But this is all to say, I think probably the single biggest ROI that we get on all our transit options is that my husband is on our town's bike committee, and attends a meeting 6 times a year for 1-2 hours where they work to make the town more bike- and pedestrian-friendly. Better bike storage at the train station, better bike lanes on major roads, better bike safety training for local school kids, better cars-assaulting-bikes enforcement from the local police. When there's no snow on the ground, I can run ALMOST all my errands by bike (with two adolescent boys, both of whom are constructed primarily of black holes, grocery trips require a car; and getting to big boxes like Target is not really bike-accessible), and that's largely due to the bike committee. (I am fat, and slow on my bike, but my town is safe enough for bicyclists that I can ride pretty much anywhere in town and feel safe, and get there eventually.)
I would like it if my car had integrated bluetooth. That's the one thing that my econobox is lacking that I feel like would improve my life.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:48 PM on December 17, 2021 [8 favorites]
If I want to use the extra storage on my iPhone, that I paid for, to play more than 1 .mp3 from a file at a time, I have to subscribe to Apple Music, and have Internet access.
It might work if you turn them into an audiobook (change the media type) and load them into iBooks or Documents by Readdle. Audiobook apps usually let you adjust the speed, too.
I'd be super pissed if I had to pay to open my car and I literally had no other way to open it. I have to use a car fob on my non-Toyota.
Most fobs these days have a key inside them in case the fob battery dies. If there is a black part and chrome part, the chrome part might be removable and have a key shaped thing attached. You get to try to find the keyhole once you find the key!
posted by soelo at 7:52 PM on December 17, 2021 [2 favorites]
It might work if you turn them into an audiobook (change the media type) and load them into iBooks or Documents by Readdle. Audiobook apps usually let you adjust the speed, too.
I'd be super pissed if I had to pay to open my car and I literally had no other way to open it. I have to use a car fob on my non-Toyota.
Most fobs these days have a key inside them in case the fob battery dies. If there is a black part and chrome part, the chrome part might be removable and have a key shaped thing attached. You get to try to find the keyhole once you find the key!
posted by soelo at 7:52 PM on December 17, 2021 [2 favorites]
Not that it particularly matters to your situation, I just think it's interesting on a technical level and have a hard time not talking about it when the subject comes up.
No worries, I do get the satellite vs cell distinction, it's just hand wavey basically the same stuff around here. I will have to check if my car is Sirius vs. XM though, thanks.
If I want to use the extra storage on my iPhone, that I paid for, to play more than 1 .mp3 from a file at a time, I have to subscribe to Apple Music, and have Internet access.
I don't want to well-actually you here but it's possible there are ways to make this work. I don't know what your setup is but I definitely listen to MP3 playlists on my iPhone in my car using the Music app and I do not pay for Apple Music or internet access in my car. This may be possible.
posted by jessamyn at 8:28 PM on December 17, 2021 [1 favorite]
No worries, I do get the satellite vs cell distinction, it's just hand wavey basically the same stuff around here. I will have to check if my car is Sirius vs. XM though, thanks.
If I want to use the extra storage on my iPhone, that I paid for, to play more than 1 .mp3 from a file at a time, I have to subscribe to Apple Music, and have Internet access.
I don't want to well-actually you here but it's possible there are ways to make this work. I don't know what your setup is but I definitely listen to MP3 playlists on my iPhone in my car using the Music app and I do not pay for Apple Music or internet access in my car. This may be possible.
posted by jessamyn at 8:28 PM on December 17, 2021 [1 favorite]
I'm disappointed that the immediate response of MeFi folks to additional options provided by the market is to demand that I pay for things that have no value to me.
The features are built into all the cars, and so the cost of the actual mechanical object is the same. You won't save any money, it's pure extracted profit by the car companies.
posted by tavella at 8:34 PM on December 17, 2021 [2 favorites]
The features are built into all the cars, and so the cost of the actual mechanical object is the same. You won't save any money, it's pure extracted profit by the car companies.
posted by tavella at 8:34 PM on December 17, 2021 [2 favorites]
A good twenty years ago, the sci-fi author Daniel Keys Moran had a theme in his books of the Speed Freaks. They were a group who clung to manually-controlled hover cars after the government outlawed them in favor of fully-automated (and much slower!) cars. Ultimately they organized the Long Run, an around-the-globe rally that the UN wiped out with weather control satellites. Their motto was "Faster, faster, until the trill of speed overcomes the fear of death."
It wasn't like the main theme of his books, but a fun motif that comes up every so often.
I think about their ending whenever I read about major policy efforts to end some aspect of car culture in the USA.
posted by wenestvedt at 8:53 PM on December 17, 2021
It wasn't like the main theme of his books, but a fun motif that comes up every so often.
I think about their ending whenever I read about major policy efforts to end some aspect of car culture in the USA.
posted by wenestvedt at 8:53 PM on December 17, 2021
continue maintaining their existing ICE cars with what I'm sure will be a robust availability of OEM aftermarket replacement parts for at least the next 10-15 years after that. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Yeah, "robust" of course! It's not like we live in a globalized economy where more often than not literally one region in the world ends up making 80-90% of a certain doohickey and we only realize this when that certain place suddenly gets hit by a flood or something. Oh, and it's also not like we're in the middle of a global pandemic where there's been weird supply chain issues and manufacturing capacity shortages. And at any rate it's only a once-in-century pandemic anyways, so that means it can't happen again for another 100 years, right? Right?! Hahahahaha
posted by FJT at 8:55 PM on December 17, 2021
Yeah, "robust" of course! It's not like we live in a globalized economy where more often than not literally one region in the world ends up making 80-90% of a certain doohickey and we only realize this when that certain place suddenly gets hit by a flood or something. Oh, and it's also not like we're in the middle of a global pandemic where there's been weird supply chain issues and manufacturing capacity shortages. And at any rate it's only a once-in-century pandemic anyways, so that means it can't happen again for another 100 years, right? Right?! Hahahahaha
posted by FJT at 8:55 PM on December 17, 2021
They were a group who clung to manually-controlled hover cars after the government outlawed them
Red Barchetta
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 9:02 PM on December 17, 2021 [3 favorites]
Red Barchetta
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 9:02 PM on December 17, 2021 [3 favorites]
Yeah, my wife’s pristine Santa Fe will no longer start over the internet. She paid per year to get that (I’d pay to NOT get it but that’s another thread). Why won’t it start? Because Hyundai put a crappy cheap-ass cellular modem in and it won’t have connectivity any more now that we’re moving to Hype-G or whatever the latest miracle cellular thing is called.
Also it won’t connect to her Bluetooth reliably any more. Since the local service blockheads know as much about fixing THEIR OWN COMPANY’S CARS as I know about mamelon and ravelin it won’t be fixed. I suspect her preferred solution (buy a new Hyundai) will not be a long-term fix either. Car manufacturers suck. Uniformly. We need a lot more consumer protections. Bah.
posted by Gilgamesh's Chauffeur at 9:17 PM on December 17, 2021 [5 favorites]
Also it won’t connect to her Bluetooth reliably any more. Since the local service blockheads know as much about fixing THEIR OWN COMPANY’S CARS as I know about mamelon and ravelin it won’t be fixed. I suspect her preferred solution (buy a new Hyundai) will not be a long-term fix either. Car manufacturers suck. Uniformly. We need a lot more consumer protections. Bah.
posted by Gilgamesh's Chauffeur at 9:17 PM on December 17, 2021 [5 favorites]
Your car knows too much about you. That could be a privacy nightmare – Modern cars collect a lot of data on their drivers., Mashable, Jack Morse, September 18, 2021:
Can’t unlock your car door? Has the latest new tires ad – prompted by your car’s tread depth sensor – finished playing yet?
posted by cenoxo at 9:18 PM on December 17, 2021 [7 favorites]
… As Jon Callas, the Electric Frontier Foundation's director of technology projects, explained to Mashable, newer cars — and Teslas in particular — are in many ways like smartphones that just happen to have wheels. They are often WiFi-enabled, come with over a hundred CPUs, and have Bluetooth embedded throughout. In other words, they're a far cry from the automobiles of even just 20 years ago.More details in the article. I think we can all rest assured that our car’s data will absolutely be shared with (and sold to) third parties. As cars become more connected, more shopping, advertising, and marketing efforts will be targeted at their captive audience.
If your car knows where you go, and how long you stay there, it, like your cellphone, also hypothetically knows whether you're a churchgoer, attend AA, or made a recent trip Planned Parenthood. And, depending on what features you've enabled, it may not keep that information to itself.
But that's just the tip of the iceberg….
Can’t unlock your car door? Has the latest new tires ad – prompted by your car’s tread depth sensor – finished playing yet?
posted by cenoxo at 9:18 PM on December 17, 2021 [7 favorites]
It's not just our cars. I guarantee that the delightful invention of roads that play tunes will soon be repurposed into commercial advertisements - your own car will buzz along the highway and the asphalt will say things like "Buy Goodyear tires."
posted by PhineasGage at 9:32 PM on December 17, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by PhineasGage at 9:32 PM on December 17, 2021 [1 favorite]
I'm considering buying an electric motorcycle, and one of the brands that tempted me was Zero... until I discovered that their latest bikes include the "Cypher Store", where they'll sell you unlocks for various extra features.
The one that infuriates me is that they'll sell you a 20% range extension. That means that if you don't pay for it you're lugging around a lot of useless weight reducing the efficiency of the bike you paid for.
For a bike that's already probably more expensive than a gasoline bike plus all of the gas I'll ever put in it, it's just insulting.
posted by aneel at 9:49 PM on December 17, 2021 [3 favorites]
The one that infuriates me is that they'll sell you a 20% range extension. That means that if you don't pay for it you're lugging around a lot of useless weight reducing the efficiency of the bike you paid for.
For a bike that's already probably more expensive than a gasoline bike plus all of the gas I'll ever put in it, it's just insulting.
posted by aneel at 9:49 PM on December 17, 2021 [3 favorites]
Whatever, I'll just make my own parts.
My 2000 Toyota Sienna has 3D printed parts in the front suspension and in the engine bay. Sure, they're just spacers and brackets, but the cost of entry to making these custom parts is not that high.
3D printing with carbon fiber makes strong, stiff parts. You can even make forged carbon fiber parts from 3D printed molds.
This is hobbyist-accessible tech in 2021. By 2035, low volume manufacturing tech is going to be insane.
posted by ryanrs at 10:44 PM on December 17, 2021 [4 favorites]
My 2000 Toyota Sienna has 3D printed parts in the front suspension and in the engine bay. Sure, they're just spacers and brackets, but the cost of entry to making these custom parts is not that high.
3D printing with carbon fiber makes strong, stiff parts. You can even make forged carbon fiber parts from 3D printed molds.
This is hobbyist-accessible tech in 2021. By 2035, low volume manufacturing tech is going to be insane.
posted by ryanrs at 10:44 PM on December 17, 2021 [4 favorites]
It seems like car location data will be accessible to states, at least. Not to track people, but to measure road usage. Gasoline taxes pay for about 2/3rds of maintenance costs for roads and bridges. EVs will put as much wear and tear on those resources, and so mileage tracking of some kind would be needed, probably.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 12:27 AM on December 18, 2021
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 12:27 AM on December 18, 2021
Yeah, fuckers are trying these with wireless routers too. I especially it when you're shopping and fucking reviewers don't highlight the monthly cost at the head of their review.
https://dongknows.com/tp-link-deco-x60-review/
https://dongknows.com/tp-link-deco-x60-review/
...https://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2018/6/12/17416982/plume-superpod-adaptive-wifi-subscription-service-announced
The catch is on the X60’s Antivirus part of HomeCare requires a subscription after a 3-month trial, which automatically starts the moment you set the system up.
Update: In early May 2020, TP-Link changed the policy on HomeCare and made it free for all of its routers and mesh systems. The way it works, the subscription automatically renews itself, at the time it expires, without payment requirement.
...https://www.lifewire.com/best-parental-control-routers-4160776
Plume says its routers will keep working if a subscriber stops paying the $60-per-year subscription. Fahri Diner, Plume’s CEO, said the company wouldn’t “brick” routers just because someone decides not to pay, but he indicated that they wouldn’t work as well. They will lose Plume’s active management features, for instance, and instead revert to a more traditional mesh router setup.
...posted by sebastienbailard at 1:09 AM on December 18, 2021 [1 favorite]
For most parents, just buy the Synology RT2600ac - our testers said it's a great, simple to use unit. If you're happy with your current router and just want to add better parental controls, then Circle Home Plus is also a good, if a little expensive (you'll need to pay a subscription fee), option that just plugs into your existing router.
This is vaguely like a sweet spot of two different things I see happening. One that’s coming into very clear focus, and one I’m starting to realize I was probably over optimistic about.
The overt optimistic was that, when we bought our current car a couple years ago, that it would be the last car we’d ever “own” outright. It seemed that driverless cars weren’t so far away, and in my mind, the next logical step (or several, but we’d get there) is that there really isn’t a reason to own a car if you can just call for one to come pick you up and take you wherever. Honestly, thinking about it, I got kind of excited about what that future would look like. Who needs a driveway or a garage when we don’t own a car? What kind of architecture could we think of without the need for massive parking areas, etc. The over optimistic part is that it seems pretty clear that car makers have a very vested interest in remaining a manufacturer of goods sold to consumers, and will do anything they can to make sure we don’t stop buying cars, while all the while trying to squeeze every possible penny out of customers. Switching to subscriptions? Tiers of service? This is our future for everything.
It’s pretty amazing, really, in that this is the system we have for healthcare, tiers, levels of service, subscriptions/prescriptions, and, rather than reforming healthcare and making it a level playing field, all the other industries are realizing just how much money there is to be made off of this system. “Sorry, the road you want to use belongs to another provider, and is not covered under your Drive All You Want plan. To use this road, please acknowledge the charge.” It would have sounded like bad science fiction twenty years ago, but now it just sounds like a projection that will have, in itself, turned out to be overly optimistic within the next five years.
The other thing? What’s coming (and we’ve been spoonfed it for a while now to get us used to it) is payment tiers for privacy. Don’t want your face tracked for personalized targeted advertising based on your daily habits and where cameras hooked up to the network have spotted you? That’ll cost you. Of course, with things like Alexa and Google Home being so readily adopted, at this point I wonder if (god help me) kids these days will have any concept of privacy as having been a thing, or even a concept worth having.
The second we get actual, working VR, it’ll be monetized. With the amount of data available, once it’s tied to facial recognition, or gait recognition, or whatever, we’ll all be walking billboards declaring far more information that we can even imagine. Privacy, the right to exist without displaying all that to anyone who would look, will be a literal luxury good.
I know it’s been said, both in this thread, and everywhere, and sometimes joking, sometimes despairing, but truly, from the depths of my soul, I never, never once doubted that we would never have some sort of utopian future, but in all my worst pessimism did I ever dream what we would have would be this utterly banal, utterly soulsucking acquiescence.
posted by Ghidorah at 1:15 AM on December 18, 2021 [6 favorites]
The overt optimistic was that, when we bought our current car a couple years ago, that it would be the last car we’d ever “own” outright. It seemed that driverless cars weren’t so far away, and in my mind, the next logical step (or several, but we’d get there) is that there really isn’t a reason to own a car if you can just call for one to come pick you up and take you wherever. Honestly, thinking about it, I got kind of excited about what that future would look like. Who needs a driveway or a garage when we don’t own a car? What kind of architecture could we think of without the need for massive parking areas, etc. The over optimistic part is that it seems pretty clear that car makers have a very vested interest in remaining a manufacturer of goods sold to consumers, and will do anything they can to make sure we don’t stop buying cars, while all the while trying to squeeze every possible penny out of customers. Switching to subscriptions? Tiers of service? This is our future for everything.
It’s pretty amazing, really, in that this is the system we have for healthcare, tiers, levels of service, subscriptions/prescriptions, and, rather than reforming healthcare and making it a level playing field, all the other industries are realizing just how much money there is to be made off of this system. “Sorry, the road you want to use belongs to another provider, and is not covered under your Drive All You Want plan. To use this road, please acknowledge the charge.” It would have sounded like bad science fiction twenty years ago, but now it just sounds like a projection that will have, in itself, turned out to be overly optimistic within the next five years.
The other thing? What’s coming (and we’ve been spoonfed it for a while now to get us used to it) is payment tiers for privacy. Don’t want your face tracked for personalized targeted advertising based on your daily habits and where cameras hooked up to the network have spotted you? That’ll cost you. Of course, with things like Alexa and Google Home being so readily adopted, at this point I wonder if (god help me) kids these days will have any concept of privacy as having been a thing, or even a concept worth having.
The second we get actual, working VR, it’ll be monetized. With the amount of data available, once it’s tied to facial recognition, or gait recognition, or whatever, we’ll all be walking billboards declaring far more information that we can even imagine. Privacy, the right to exist without displaying all that to anyone who would look, will be a literal luxury good.
I know it’s been said, both in this thread, and everywhere, and sometimes joking, sometimes despairing, but truly, from the depths of my soul, I never, never once doubted that we would never have some sort of utopian future, but in all my worst pessimism did I ever dream what we would have would be this utterly banal, utterly soulsucking acquiescence.
posted by Ghidorah at 1:15 AM on December 18, 2021 [6 favorites]
Toyota's paid 'remote start' key fob functionality will only prevent you from starting the car remotely, it does not prevent you from remotely unlocking the car and starting it from inside.
An idling engine can produce up to twice as many exhaust emissions as an engine in motion, here in the UK it is illegal. So I'm quite happy for that to be a paid feature, really I'd prefer it didn't exist at all. It also seems like a potential vulnerability that will make the car easier to steal.
posted by Lanark at 1:53 AM on December 18, 2021 [2 favorites]
An idling engine can produce up to twice as many exhaust emissions as an engine in motion, here in the UK it is illegal. So I'm quite happy for that to be a paid feature, really I'd prefer it didn't exist at all. It also seems like a potential vulnerability that will make the car easier to steal.
posted by Lanark at 1:53 AM on December 18, 2021 [2 favorites]
this utterly banal, utterly soulsucking acquiescence
is a really good description of how I've always felt about the rapid uptake of voice-activated "smart" "assistants" that phone home to do the voice recognition part e.g. Siri, Alexa, Cortana, Google Assistant and all their nasty little friends. I would never choose to have such an always-on audio surveillance device active in my home and I utterly fail to understand why anybody who isn't depending on them as a disability workaround would choose to.
"Smart" lighting systems and locks and blinds and yes, remote start key fobs likewise. Why the fuck do people feel such a strong need to give away so much privacy, security and autonomy in pursuit of so little additional convenience?
posted by flabdablet at 3:29 AM on December 18, 2021 [5 favorites]
is a really good description of how I've always felt about the rapid uptake of voice-activated "smart" "assistants" that phone home to do the voice recognition part e.g. Siri, Alexa, Cortana, Google Assistant and all their nasty little friends. I would never choose to have such an always-on audio surveillance device active in my home and I utterly fail to understand why anybody who isn't depending on them as a disability workaround would choose to.
"Smart" lighting systems and locks and blinds and yes, remote start key fobs likewise. Why the fuck do people feel such a strong need to give away so much privacy, security and autonomy in pursuit of so little additional convenience?
posted by flabdablet at 3:29 AM on December 18, 2021 [5 favorites]
they still don't offer the same instant utility/perceived "freedom" of owning a personal vehicle
Erm, "perceived" is doing a lot of work in that phrase. Growing up in a shitty, lower-working-class suburb in the US, our shit-ass car on which we were absolutely dependent was the #1 source of stress for the entire family: like the vast majority of poor families, we didn't have the wherewithal to get together eight or nine thousand dollars to replace the damn thing with a more reliable model, so we were constantly dumping money into it to try to keep it sputtering along, lest our parent lose their job. Not to mention the "normal" costs of gas, insurance, tabs, yadda yadda yadda, which frequently brought said parent to tears because we regualarly got to decide between (what I used to think of as) "feeding" the car or feeding ourselves appropriately.
A personal car only really represents "freedom" to someone with the cash to own a decent one (or two, or four), fuel it, and keep it in decent working order without those things eating up a significant percentage of their income. For working families in crap suburbs, of which there are MILLIONS, a car is a burden: a huge money suck they are forced by shitty policy and outdated, racist urban design practices to accept.
Sure, yes, a personal car technically means you have a machine at your disposal that can carry you hundreds of miles at a time, which I suppose on the face of it is very poetic, especially in America. As of September 2021, the average trip length in the US for "work-related business" (which AFAICT includes commuting) was barely over 15 miles. This does not describe many people's experience (I myself commuted further than that just for my college job), but MANY, MANY people are not regularly traveling the kinds of distances that necessitate a two-to-four-ton vehicle that needs its own special box to live in/whole chunks of town to sit in during the 20 hours a day it's not serving any purpose whatsoever. But they have to, because as a nation we currently lack the imagination or political will to build better solutions.
We don't need to "ban" personal cars--the real work to be done is to make them obsolete.
posted by peakes at 4:04 AM on December 18, 2021 [19 favorites]
Erm, "perceived" is doing a lot of work in that phrase. Growing up in a shitty, lower-working-class suburb in the US, our shit-ass car on which we were absolutely dependent was the #1 source of stress for the entire family: like the vast majority of poor families, we didn't have the wherewithal to get together eight or nine thousand dollars to replace the damn thing with a more reliable model, so we were constantly dumping money into it to try to keep it sputtering along, lest our parent lose their job. Not to mention the "normal" costs of gas, insurance, tabs, yadda yadda yadda, which frequently brought said parent to tears because we regualarly got to decide between (what I used to think of as) "feeding" the car or feeding ourselves appropriately.
A personal car only really represents "freedom" to someone with the cash to own a decent one (or two, or four), fuel it, and keep it in decent working order without those things eating up a significant percentage of their income. For working families in crap suburbs, of which there are MILLIONS, a car is a burden: a huge money suck they are forced by shitty policy and outdated, racist urban design practices to accept.
Sure, yes, a personal car technically means you have a machine at your disposal that can carry you hundreds of miles at a time, which I suppose on the face of it is very poetic, especially in America. As of September 2021, the average trip length in the US for "work-related business" (which AFAICT includes commuting) was barely over 15 miles. This does not describe many people's experience (I myself commuted further than that just for my college job), but MANY, MANY people are not regularly traveling the kinds of distances that necessitate a two-to-four-ton vehicle that needs its own special box to live in/whole chunks of town to sit in during the 20 hours a day it's not serving any purpose whatsoever. But they have to, because as a nation we currently lack the imagination or political will to build better solutions.
We don't need to "ban" personal cars--the real work to be done is to make them obsolete.
posted by peakes at 4:04 AM on December 18, 2021 [19 favorites]
Toyota is also gambling the company on hydrogen fuel cells over electric. In Japan, they currently purchase large amounts of a highly-polluting variety of coal from Australia in order to generate the electricity needed to generate and store hydrogen on-site.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 4:26 AM on December 18, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 4:26 AM on December 18, 2021 [1 favorite]
I bought a 2020 Ford Fusion and the sales guy pleaded with me to download the Ford app to my phone because it could do all kinds of things I didn't particularly want done, and finally he said that he'd get "in trouble" if I didn't download the app, which may have been a lie, but to shut him up I downloaded it with the intention of deleting it later, and it turned out the whole discussion was unnecessary because the app wouldn't run on my phone.
posted by JanetLand at 5:12 AM on December 18, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by JanetLand at 5:12 AM on December 18, 2021 [6 favorites]
I would like it if my car had integrated bluetooth.
If you want it for music, you can buy new stereos with bluetooth for $100-300. Plus putting it in -- if you or your hubs are handy, replacing a head unit is like an unpleasant afternoon. I haven't done this since the late 90s, but Crutchfield will probably still sell you a complete package of everything you need to get the swap done along with good instructions. Or someone else will put it in for you.
Also it won’t connect to her Bluetooth reliably any more.
I had this happen in my 2010 Mazda 3 and the problem was that the car spoke an early dialect of bluetooth that the phone didn't speak any more. The 95% solution with an android phone was to go into the developer options and change the bluetooth version to as early as possible. Now it connects reliably again but the next/last track switch on the steering wheel doesn't work.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 6:52 AM on December 18, 2021 [6 favorites]
If you want it for music, you can buy new stereos with bluetooth for $100-300. Plus putting it in -- if you or your hubs are handy, replacing a head unit is like an unpleasant afternoon. I haven't done this since the late 90s, but Crutchfield will probably still sell you a complete package of everything you need to get the swap done along with good instructions. Or someone else will put it in for you.
Also it won’t connect to her Bluetooth reliably any more.
I had this happen in my 2010 Mazda 3 and the problem was that the car spoke an early dialect of bluetooth that the phone didn't speak any more. The 95% solution with an android phone was to go into the developer options and change the bluetooth version to as early as possible. Now it connects reliably again but the next/last track switch on the steering wheel doesn't work.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 6:52 AM on December 18, 2021 [6 favorites]
It also seems like a potential vulnerability that will make the car easier to steal.
Remote start only starts the engine. It does not allow the shifter to be moved until the key fob is inside the car. I only use it when the temperature is far below freezing, and then only when the car is outside.
posted by soelo at 7:34 AM on December 18, 2021
Remote start only starts the engine. It does not allow the shifter to be moved until the key fob is inside the car. I only use it when the temperature is far below freezing, and then only when the car is outside.
posted by soelo at 7:34 AM on December 18, 2021
Re: remote starting. It's actually illegal where I live to idle for more than 30 seconds because carbon, but it raises the interesting point of companies providing things that aren't locally allowed. Everything from over powered ebikes, to auto driving are illegal in many places where they're easily available. It ends up being kind of a weird sovereignty problem.
posted by klanawa at 9:30 AM on December 18, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by klanawa at 9:30 AM on December 18, 2021 [5 favorites]
they still don't offer the same instant utility/perceived "freedom" of owning a personal vehicle
Erm, "perceived" is doing a lot of work in that phrase.
I know, that's why I deliberately included it.
posted by Greg_Ace at 9:58 AM on December 18, 2021
Erm, "perceived" is doing a lot of work in that phrase.
I know, that's why I deliberately included it.
posted by Greg_Ace at 9:58 AM on December 18, 2021
Speaking of which and also replying to myself that I forget how spiteful some are, we all know there's a contingent of people out there that will do the exact opposite when their perceived "freedom" is being taken away, even if it ends up contributing to their deaths. So, I expect we'll look forward to a future where that group will buy the loudest mufflers and spend hours revving their engines at rallies in order to protest "Democrats taking their cars away".
I guess the potential upside is that as a reaction some people will be so embarrassed in owning an ICE vehicle they may get rid of it just to avoid being perceived as a huge asshole.
posted by FJT at 11:04 AM on December 18, 2021 [2 favorites]
I guess the potential upside is that as a reaction some people will be so embarrassed in owning an ICE vehicle they may get rid of it just to avoid being perceived as a huge asshole.
posted by FJT at 11:04 AM on December 18, 2021 [2 favorites]
I would be fine with a fully subscription/rental model for car "ownership." Right now I own my car outright, which means I fronted a bunch of money that gets frittered away slowly in depreciation. (This year my car gained value, but that isn't a normal situation with a used car.) And, I pay out of pocket for maintenance as things come up. The last time I did the math a few years ago, this was slightly cheaper than leasing, but otherwise I don't feel like I'm getting a lot out of the deal that I wouldn't with a lease or subscription type plan.
At the same time, I very much don't want my car to be marketing services to me, or to find out after a few months of ownership that I will now need to pay extra for something I had thought was included.
posted by Dip Flash at 11:06 AM on December 18, 2021
At the same time, I very much don't want my car to be marketing services to me, or to find out after a few months of ownership that I will now need to pay extra for something I had thought was included.
posted by Dip Flash at 11:06 AM on December 18, 2021
While there are certainly many people with disabilities who use cars as mobility aids and that's great, there are many non-drivers with disabilities, many live in zero-vehicle households, and their mobility needs are often wildly underserved.
Can we please not do the fight that pitches differently disabled people against each other?
I am an agoraphobic person who at this point would be unable to leave my home if I did not have a car. At the same time, I also recognize that for many disabled people, good mass transit is important, even if I personally am left a gibbering wreck if I take it.
And I will say making things like “lane correction” subscription service, so you’re more likely to crash your car if you’re out of work, are dystopian as fuck.
posted by corb at 11:54 AM on December 18, 2021 [5 favorites]
Can we please not do the fight that pitches differently disabled people against each other?
I am an agoraphobic person who at this point would be unable to leave my home if I did not have a car. At the same time, I also recognize that for many disabled people, good mass transit is important, even if I personally am left a gibbering wreck if I take it.
And I will say making things like “lane correction” subscription service, so you’re more likely to crash your car if you’re out of work, are dystopian as fuck.
posted by corb at 11:54 AM on December 18, 2021 [5 favorites]
Can I just use this platform to reiterate what a steaming pile of shit Android Auto is?
It could not be more clear that every single person on the Android Auto team takes the company bus to work when they come in at all.
posted by mhoye at 2:10 PM on December 18, 2021 [1 favorite]
It could not be more clear that every single person on the Android Auto team takes the company bus to work when they come in at all.
posted by mhoye at 2:10 PM on December 18, 2021 [1 favorite]
This is already happening with tractors.
Speaking of steaming piles of shit, that article is pretty interesting. I had no idea there were farmers out there extracting methane from pig manure, using Ukrainian firmware cracks to use it to fuel tractor engines.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 6:35 PM on December 18, 2021 [1 favorite]
Speaking of steaming piles of shit, that article is pretty interesting. I had no idea there were farmers out there extracting methane from pig manure, using Ukrainian firmware cracks to use it to fuel tractor engines.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 6:35 PM on December 18, 2021 [1 favorite]
Tired-> "Did you run out of blinker fluid?!"
Wired-> "Did your turn signal subscription expire?"
posted by subocoyne at 8:46 PM on December 18, 2021 [4 favorites]
Wired-> "Did your turn signal subscription expire?"
posted by subocoyne at 8:46 PM on December 18, 2021 [4 favorites]
if you or your hubs are handy, replacing a head unit is like an unpleasant afternoon. I haven't done this since the late 90s
Ms flabdablet's 2011 Holden Barina has an inbuilt OEM stereo that I truly dislike, but I don't think it can be replaced with an aftermarket unit because as well as being a stereo it has menus to control stuff like the way the car's door locks work. Replacing it would leave us with no way to do those things.
posted by flabdablet at 10:56 PM on December 18, 2021 [3 favorites]
Ms flabdablet's 2011 Holden Barina has an inbuilt OEM stereo that I truly dislike, but I don't think it can be replaced with an aftermarket unit because as well as being a stereo it has menus to control stuff like the way the car's door locks work. Replacing it would leave us with no way to do those things.
posted by flabdablet at 10:56 PM on December 18, 2021 [3 favorites]
I can't say if any head unit manufacturers have done the work, but it's highly likely that such things can be controlled with a CANbus dongle and some software running on a smartphone.
I have seen head units with CANbus modules and the necessary software to control some functions in other early 2010s cars. I'm not sure I'd trust them to always work since it's reverse engineered by snooping CAN packets, but they definitely exist. It would be hard not to since there's all kinds of stuff directly related to making audio come out that has to be activated with CANbus commands in modern cars.
posted by wierdo at 11:29 PM on December 18, 2021
I have seen head units with CANbus modules and the necessary software to control some functions in other early 2010s cars. I'm not sure I'd trust them to always work since it's reverse engineered by snooping CAN packets, but they definitely exist. It would be hard not to since there's all kinds of stuff directly related to making audio come out that has to be activated with CANbus commands in modern cars.
posted by wierdo at 11:29 PM on December 18, 2021
Several years ago I was frustrated with the limitations in functionality of a camera that I owned, and as a curious hacker type, I chose to reverse engineer the firmware to try to adapt it to my needs. This turned out to be useful to other people and there is now a large number of developers and users writing their own extensions. Some of these extensions bring features from fancier cameras to lower-end devices (like raw video recording or better time-lapse controls), which definitely messes with the manufacturers' market segmentation plans, while others were genuinely new features that ended up being added by the OEM into their newer cameras (like live HDR video by using different ISO on alternative scan lines).
More recently I was hacking on CPAP machines and found that the low-end devices had the same firmware as the manufacturer's ventilators and BiPAP machines, and that, despite claims by the manufacturer to the contrary, flipping a few bits in the firmware would allow the cheap device to perform the ventilator functions for a fraction of the cost. There are certification and other concerns in addition to market segmentation, so maybe they're justified in the higher price, although during the early days of the pandemic it was shocking that they didn't make this upgrade available to allow hospitals to rapidly increase the number of ventilators available.
I've also modified the firmware in my lightbulbs to improve their dimming (and to run Python!), the firmware in my laptops to make them more secure, and countless other devices around the home. It's my firm belief that everyone should be able to customize and repair the devices that they own, which includes modifications to both the hardware and the firmware, and especially publishing information on how to do so, so that others are able to do the same.
If I had a car, I'd definitely be looking into "fixing" these sorts of "failures". If you want to get into that sort of thing, there are lots of wonderful free tools now -- the costs for a STLink or Arduino/Teensy to poke at the bits in the hardware is minimal, and the NSA's free Ghidra reverse engineering tool has most every CPU you're likely to encounter plus a decent de-compiler so that you don't have to read raw assembly. It's fun to understand and modify devices that you own!
posted by autopilot at 5:05 AM on December 19, 2021 [24 favorites]
More recently I was hacking on CPAP machines and found that the low-end devices had the same firmware as the manufacturer's ventilators and BiPAP machines, and that, despite claims by the manufacturer to the contrary, flipping a few bits in the firmware would allow the cheap device to perform the ventilator functions for a fraction of the cost. There are certification and other concerns in addition to market segmentation, so maybe they're justified in the higher price, although during the early days of the pandemic it was shocking that they didn't make this upgrade available to allow hospitals to rapidly increase the number of ventilators available.
I've also modified the firmware in my lightbulbs to improve their dimming (and to run Python!), the firmware in my laptops to make them more secure, and countless other devices around the home. It's my firm belief that everyone should be able to customize and repair the devices that they own, which includes modifications to both the hardware and the firmware, and especially publishing information on how to do so, so that others are able to do the same.
If I had a car, I'd definitely be looking into "fixing" these sorts of "failures". If you want to get into that sort of thing, there are lots of wonderful free tools now -- the costs for a STLink or Arduino/Teensy to poke at the bits in the hardware is minimal, and the NSA's free Ghidra reverse engineering tool has most every CPU you're likely to encounter plus a decent de-compiler so that you don't have to read raw assembly. It's fun to understand and modify devices that you own!
posted by autopilot at 5:05 AM on December 19, 2021 [24 favorites]
2011 Holden Barina has an inbuilt OEM stereo that I truly dislike, but I don't think it can be replaced with an aftermarket unit because as well as being a stereo it has menus to control stuff like the way the car's door locks work. Replacing it would leave us with no way to do those things.
You can certainly replace the head unit, although it's not clear if it carries over all functions (and it's expensive).
posted by dg at 1:33 PM on December 19, 2021
You can certainly replace the head unit, although it's not clear if it carries over all functions (and it's expensive).
posted by dg at 1:33 PM on December 19, 2021
While the monthly fee thing is a little bit new, paying extra to 'unlock' additional features is not. Many of the extras you can have 'fitted' to your modern car (eg GPS) are often already installed and just need to be turned on by the dealer after payment of the appropriate fee.
posted by dg at 1:35 PM on December 19, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by dg at 1:35 PM on December 19, 2021 [1 favorite]
This stuff sucks in my opinion, but it's a bit tricky to find a principled argument against it (if we assume that everything is done openly with full notice and the seller abides by the terms they lay out).
I don't think that it's that tricky. All but the most ardent worshippers of "freedom" of contract between grossly mismatched parties will recognise a principled argument against rent-seeking and the cartels or cartel-like behaviour it requires.
The only possible upside of all this bullshit is that I think it further strains and dilutes the purely metaphorical relationship between the concept of ownership of personal property and modern legal fictions like intellectual property. Modern capitalism takes for granted the idea that all things are capable of being owned and commodified like goods, and uses this to support its increasing incursions into previously uncommodified spaces. The problem for capitalism is that, if personal property ceases to be something over which normal people exercise ownership, the concept will no longer be able to do all the heavy lifting needed to get people to accept the fiction that the "ownership" rights exercised by very wealthy entities are just a form of the property rights the rest of us have, as opposed to what they really are: the exploitation of a power imbalance.
Obviously there's a pretty decent chance these fuckers will cause our civilisation to collapse before we get to that point, and they're definitely causing real suffering right now, so it's only a glimmer of a silver lining.
posted by howfar at 6:05 AM on December 20, 2021 [1 favorite]
I don't think that it's that tricky. All but the most ardent worshippers of "freedom" of contract between grossly mismatched parties will recognise a principled argument against rent-seeking and the cartels or cartel-like behaviour it requires.
The only possible upside of all this bullshit is that I think it further strains and dilutes the purely metaphorical relationship between the concept of ownership of personal property and modern legal fictions like intellectual property. Modern capitalism takes for granted the idea that all things are capable of being owned and commodified like goods, and uses this to support its increasing incursions into previously uncommodified spaces. The problem for capitalism is that, if personal property ceases to be something over which normal people exercise ownership, the concept will no longer be able to do all the heavy lifting needed to get people to accept the fiction that the "ownership" rights exercised by very wealthy entities are just a form of the property rights the rest of us have, as opposed to what they really are: the exploitation of a power imbalance.
Obviously there's a pretty decent chance these fuckers will cause our civilisation to collapse before we get to that point, and they're definitely causing real suffering right now, so it's only a glimmer of a silver lining.
posted by howfar at 6:05 AM on December 20, 2021 [1 favorite]
I don't think that it's that tricky. All but the most ardent worshippers of "freedom" of contract between grossly mismatched parties will recognise a principled argument against rent-seeking and the cartels or cartel-like behaviour it requires.
What makes it "rent-seeking" or "cartel-like behavior"?
The problem for capitalism is that, if personal property ceases to be something over which normal people exercise ownership, the concept will no longer be able to do all the heavy lifting needed to get people to accept the fiction that the "ownership" rights exercised by very wealthy entities are just a form of the property rights the rest of us have, as opposed to what they really are: the exploitation of a power imbalance.
Hope you are right but y'know the bad guys can always rely on good ol' force for this.
posted by grobstein at 8:06 AM on December 20, 2021
What makes it "rent-seeking" or "cartel-like behavior"?
The problem for capitalism is that, if personal property ceases to be something over which normal people exercise ownership, the concept will no longer be able to do all the heavy lifting needed to get people to accept the fiction that the "ownership" rights exercised by very wealthy entities are just a form of the property rights the rest of us have, as opposed to what they really are: the exploitation of a power imbalance.
Hope you are right but y'know the bad guys can always rely on good ol' force for this.
posted by grobstein at 8:06 AM on December 20, 2021
"We are able to control for profit your use of something you've paid for because it suits us to do so, without generating any new goods" is pretty much the definition of rent-seeking, and it's unsustainable without either explicit or tacit agreement between competitors.
Hope you are right but y'know the bad guys can always rely on good ol' force for this.
Well, yes, but excluding paranoid excuses for craven acceptance of being their plaything, what's your point?
posted by howfar at 8:16 AM on December 20, 2021
Hope you are right but y'know the bad guys can always rely on good ol' force for this.
Well, yes, but excluding paranoid excuses for craven acceptance of being their plaything, what's your point?
posted by howfar at 8:16 AM on December 20, 2021
This stuff sucks in my opinion, but it's a bit tricky to find a principled argument against it
Any price that isn't marginal cost is sin against the market and must be put to death in the holy name of Pareto.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 8:47 AM on December 20, 2021 [1 favorite]
Any price that isn't marginal cost is sin against the market and must be put to death in the holy name of Pareto.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 8:47 AM on December 20, 2021 [1 favorite]
Gosh it must be paranoia to think the system could be sustained by force instead of freely given consent like it is now.
I'll point you back to my earlier comment. I specifically did not consent to "roadside assistance." Yet, "roadside assistance" killed my car and cost me half a day of waiting in the customer lounge while Toyota struggled to undo the damage they did to my car. Where, in this scenario, is "freely given consent"? I specifically refused consent! And (if you must go all Mr. A Libertarian on this), wasn't the company the initiator of force? Wasn't this extortion? ("You want to drive? Bring in your car!")
Your idea of "freely given consent" is lacking in real-world considerations.
posted by SPrintF at 11:10 AM on December 20, 2021
I'll point you back to my earlier comment. I specifically did not consent to "roadside assistance." Yet, "roadside assistance" killed my car and cost me half a day of waiting in the customer lounge while Toyota struggled to undo the damage they did to my car. Where, in this scenario, is "freely given consent"? I specifically refused consent! And (if you must go all Mr. A Libertarian on this), wasn't the company the initiator of force? Wasn't this extortion? ("You want to drive? Bring in your car!")
Your idea of "freely given consent" is lacking in real-world considerations.
posted by SPrintF at 11:10 AM on December 20, 2021
I-think facetious suggestion
Nope. Any price that isn't marginal cost is exploitative, distortive, and Pareto-inferior. This is econ 101 shit.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 12:44 PM on December 20, 2021
Nope. Any price that isn't marginal cost is exploitative, distortive, and Pareto-inferior. This is econ 101 shit.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 12:44 PM on December 20, 2021
I'm not sure we live in Phillip K. Dick's world, as US farmers hacking their John Deeres with bootleg Ukranian firmware to be able to repair them sounds more Gibsonesque to me.
posted by Harald74 at 12:49 PM on December 20, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by Harald74 at 12:49 PM on December 20, 2021 [2 favorites]
Yeah. In PKD world, the bootleg firmware would be making the tractors sentient and John Deere would be hiring cops to go around blowing them up.
posted by flabdablet at 2:54 AM on December 21, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by flabdablet at 2:54 AM on December 21, 2021 [1 favorite]
Geezerhood involves a chilling perspective. I am not, never was, a mechanic. Nevertheless, my obligations as the owner of various pickups and cars involved, for example, checking tire pressure, changing the oil, lubing the several zirc fittings on the running gear, changing sparkplugs and setting their gaps, changing and sitting the gaps on the points, inspecting and changing air and oil filters. Nothing very technical there. All first echelon work.
I haven't even looked under the hood of the last three vehicles I've owned. My Jeep tells me my tire pressure, oil (synthetic) condition, and several other engine-related items, plus it keeps a trip log of distance, driving time, and fuel consumption. I haven't seen a new grease spot in the driveway for maybe 20 years. Oh, and the driver's seat remembers my Sigoth's settings and knows how to return itself to my own when I get to drive.
Sometimes I hit the wrong button while adjusting my rearview mirror, and a lovely lady from somewhere in the known universe asks me if I need help. I apologize for bothering her. She laughs and says it happens all the time. I get 240 channels on my satellite radio, but I listen mainly to the When Radio Was channel because I love Gunsmoke and Fibber McGee & Molly (etc.). My engine is closing on 100,000 miles, and I believe it's about time to get a transmission flush. I'm going for 200,00 miles, but we'll see.
I like my onboard map for getting me through the interchanges of large cities. The robot with the friendly voice is reasonably polite when she tells me I'm going the wrong fucking way, but she rarely gives up on me, except when we take the desert roads around SW New Mexico; at those times, she sighs and tells me to let her know when I finally get back on a road she's familiar with. I drive all over the western states every year. Next year (if the apocalypse doesn't shut us down), I'll be visiting Tennessee and Pennsylvania, perhaps Georgia and New Orleans. We'll see about that, too.
You whippersnappers may be surprised to know that when I was but a lad, the interstate system we take for granted here in America was still a guttering spark in Adolph's twisted mind, and it took Ike to make it happen here. I drove big trucks cross-country when most towns smaller than Cleveland were not yet connected to the freeway. Now I drive past many towns without seeing them because they lie beyond the frontages--their views are obscured by travelers' regalia of gas stations, fast-food joints, and motel complexes. These cookie-cutter villages, built around cloverleafs and stacked interchanges, are scattered throughout suburbs and exurbs everywhere and serviced by convenient off-ramps with signs that helpfully point to food, gas, and lodging.
I've lived to see cars with automatic speed controls, lane controls, automatic (non-skid) braking, and some of them will park themselves for you. I imagine you can find one that you can summon with your key-fob from its parking place somewhere in the back forty acres of the Cosco parking lot. Jeezus, and I just saw a commercial that tells me I can buy a new pickup that lets me play patty-cake with my kids while zooming along the interstate at speeds my original old Chevy couldn't manage even on its best days.
The subscription car trend may not affect me very much, as I am old. I am disappointed about not ever getting the future that Popular Mechanics magazine promised--you know, the flying car and heliports on the balcony of my high-rise apartment. On the other hand, I have a fair chance of seeing a human-crewed expedition to Mars, so there's that. Maybe Elon will land his Porche there. That would be good. He could get a pro-football player to drive for him. Yeah.
Time for my meds. Wake me when Trump is in jail.
posted by mule98J at 9:46 AM on December 21, 2021 [7 favorites]
I haven't even looked under the hood of the last three vehicles I've owned. My Jeep tells me my tire pressure, oil (synthetic) condition, and several other engine-related items, plus it keeps a trip log of distance, driving time, and fuel consumption. I haven't seen a new grease spot in the driveway for maybe 20 years. Oh, and the driver's seat remembers my Sigoth's settings and knows how to return itself to my own when I get to drive.
Sometimes I hit the wrong button while adjusting my rearview mirror, and a lovely lady from somewhere in the known universe asks me if I need help. I apologize for bothering her. She laughs and says it happens all the time. I get 240 channels on my satellite radio, but I listen mainly to the When Radio Was channel because I love Gunsmoke and Fibber McGee & Molly (etc.). My engine is closing on 100,000 miles, and I believe it's about time to get a transmission flush. I'm going for 200,00 miles, but we'll see.
I like my onboard map for getting me through the interchanges of large cities. The robot with the friendly voice is reasonably polite when she tells me I'm going the wrong fucking way, but she rarely gives up on me, except when we take the desert roads around SW New Mexico; at those times, she sighs and tells me to let her know when I finally get back on a road she's familiar with. I drive all over the western states every year. Next year (if the apocalypse doesn't shut us down), I'll be visiting Tennessee and Pennsylvania, perhaps Georgia and New Orleans. We'll see about that, too.
You whippersnappers may be surprised to know that when I was but a lad, the interstate system we take for granted here in America was still a guttering spark in Adolph's twisted mind, and it took Ike to make it happen here. I drove big trucks cross-country when most towns smaller than Cleveland were not yet connected to the freeway. Now I drive past many towns without seeing them because they lie beyond the frontages--their views are obscured by travelers' regalia of gas stations, fast-food joints, and motel complexes. These cookie-cutter villages, built around cloverleafs and stacked interchanges, are scattered throughout suburbs and exurbs everywhere and serviced by convenient off-ramps with signs that helpfully point to food, gas, and lodging.
I've lived to see cars with automatic speed controls, lane controls, automatic (non-skid) braking, and some of them will park themselves for you. I imagine you can find one that you can summon with your key-fob from its parking place somewhere in the back forty acres of the Cosco parking lot. Jeezus, and I just saw a commercial that tells me I can buy a new pickup that lets me play patty-cake with my kids while zooming along the interstate at speeds my original old Chevy couldn't manage even on its best days.
The subscription car trend may not affect me very much, as I am old. I am disappointed about not ever getting the future that Popular Mechanics magazine promised--you know, the flying car and heliports on the balcony of my high-rise apartment. On the other hand, I have a fair chance of seeing a human-crewed expedition to Mars, so there's that. Maybe Elon will land his Porche there. That would be good. He could get a pro-football player to drive for him. Yeah.
Time for my meds. Wake me when Trump is in jail.
posted by mule98J at 9:46 AM on December 21, 2021 [7 favorites]
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posted by parmanparman at 10:30 AM on December 17, 2021 [28 favorites]