New York City bans natural gas in new buildings
December 25, 2021 11:04 PM Subscribe
New buildings in the biggest U.S. city with 8.8 million residents will have to use electricity for heat and cooking, according to the council vote that was streamed on its website. Almost half of the power generated in New York State so far this year came from burning fossil fuels (45% from gas and 4% from oil), with another 24% from nuclear and 22% from hydropower, according to federal energy data.
The only reason I object is that I hate cooking on electric. I suppose that too will pass, but I do loathe electric ranges and stove tops.
posted by drewbage1847 at 11:50 PM on December 25, 2021 [34 favorites]
posted by drewbage1847 at 11:50 PM on December 25, 2021 [34 favorites]
This is great! The fact that there is gas running under every major city and community in the US is mind boggling to me. I can not wait until this is a thing of the past and people will be able to say (like with smoking, lead paint...and so many other things), "can you believe we used to do that??"
posted by Toddles at 11:51 PM on December 25, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by Toddles at 11:51 PM on December 25, 2021 [3 favorites]
I'm honestly surprised more places haven't banned new natural gas hookups / appliances. Especially places like California, where the ban makes even more sense due to just earthquakes even before you get into the environmental benefits of all electric.
posted by jmauro at 11:58 PM on December 25, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by jmauro at 11:58 PM on December 25, 2021 [4 favorites]
More coverage that's not paywalled: from the city itself and NPR. New buildings up to seven storeys must phase out the use of fossil fuels starting in 2023, with buildings taller than seven storeys to follow in 2027. Exceptions exist for things like commercial kitchens and emergency generators.
It sounds like this highly informative Technology Connections video is about to get a lot more relevant, given that the city is looking into whether heat pumps can make up a significant portion of heating going forward.
posted by chrominance at 12:01 AM on December 26, 2021 [4 favorites]
It sounds like this highly informative Technology Connections video is about to get a lot more relevant, given that the city is looking into whether heat pumps can make up a significant portion of heating going forward.
posted by chrominance at 12:01 AM on December 26, 2021 [4 favorites]
I hate cooking on electric. I suppose that too will pass, but I do loathe electric ranges and stove tops.
Try an induction cooktop. Used with compatible pans they're as responsive as gas. Way easier to clean than a gas cooktop as well.
posted by flabdablet at 12:17 AM on December 26, 2021 [40 favorites]
Try an induction cooktop. Used with compatible pans they're as responsive as gas. Way easier to clean than a gas cooktop as well.
posted by flabdablet at 12:17 AM on December 26, 2021 [40 favorites]
Try an induction cooktop.
Seconding this, I hadn't realized how much better induction was than traditional electric or natural gas until I tried it out.
For my fellow renters and people who don't want to install appliances, you can get a single induction cooktop (like a safer hot plate) for like $80ish: https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/reviews/best-portable-induction-cooktop/
posted by All Might Be Well at 12:26 AM on December 26, 2021 [15 favorites]
Seconding this, I hadn't realized how much better induction was than traditional electric or natural gas until I tried it out.
For my fellow renters and people who don't want to install appliances, you can get a single induction cooktop (like a safer hot plate) for like $80ish: https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/reviews/best-portable-induction-cooktop/
posted by All Might Be Well at 12:26 AM on December 26, 2021 [15 favorites]
Does induction work for restaurants too, especially for types of cooking (like wok cooking) that depend on very high heat?
posted by trig at 2:23 AM on December 26, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by trig at 2:23 AM on December 26, 2021 [1 favorite]
Does induction work for restaurants too, especially for types of cooking (like wok cooking) that depend on very high heat?
For fire safety reasons the typical home gas stove has a maximum "wok burner" which outputs 13MJ/Hour or 13,000 BTU, which is roughly equivalent to a 2kW induction hob. Some math involved, but basically there's loss-factor in there which accounts for the heat lost to the environment for a gas flame, while the induction coils transfer heat directly to the pot.
My current induction stove wok burner maxes out at 4kW, and the total stove has a max output of 7.4kW (pretty much running 3 induction sites simultaneously). I'm comparing the "low to mid" range gas stove and induction hob offerings from Technika that I was browsing before I made my choice, roughly $800 for the induction vs $400 for the gas.
On the surface of it, for home cooking, I do find the induction stovetop to be significantly more powerful than a gas stovetop. I assume something similar would hold for commercial kitchens, I have heard that a huge issue that commercial kitchens have is heat - hence the constantly running water cascading around the stove area to draw heat away - and this is something that induction tops can help with.
Anyway, I love my induction top! It's super easy to clean, because, the glass surface and pot exterior never gets very hot - if you're cooking soup, for example, the entire pot never gets above boiling because the heat is wirelessly transmitted to the pot, while on a gas stove or electric element stove it's exposed to heat of several hundred degrees and it can result in baked on residues and soot. The induction glass top cleans just like wiping fingerprints from a smartphone.
posted by xdvesper at 2:46 AM on December 26, 2021 [9 favorites]
For fire safety reasons the typical home gas stove has a maximum "wok burner" which outputs 13MJ/Hour or 13,000 BTU, which is roughly equivalent to a 2kW induction hob. Some math involved, but basically there's loss-factor in there which accounts for the heat lost to the environment for a gas flame, while the induction coils transfer heat directly to the pot.
My current induction stove wok burner maxes out at 4kW, and the total stove has a max output of 7.4kW (pretty much running 3 induction sites simultaneously). I'm comparing the "low to mid" range gas stove and induction hob offerings from Technika that I was browsing before I made my choice, roughly $800 for the induction vs $400 for the gas.
On the surface of it, for home cooking, I do find the induction stovetop to be significantly more powerful than a gas stovetop. I assume something similar would hold for commercial kitchens, I have heard that a huge issue that commercial kitchens have is heat - hence the constantly running water cascading around the stove area to draw heat away - and this is something that induction tops can help with.
Anyway, I love my induction top! It's super easy to clean, because, the glass surface and pot exterior never gets very hot - if you're cooking soup, for example, the entire pot never gets above boiling because the heat is wirelessly transmitted to the pot, while on a gas stove or electric element stove it's exposed to heat of several hundred degrees and it can result in baked on residues and soot. The induction glass top cleans just like wiping fingerprints from a smartphone.
posted by xdvesper at 2:46 AM on December 26, 2021 [9 favorites]
Those who’ll complain of the increased costs due to electricity … you’d pay those anyway after ConEd has to shell out zillions after gas explosions. One way or another, those costs get passed on to the consumer.
The difference between my ConEd bill and my Austin electricity bill (where I didn't have gas) isn't my gas usage, it's fees related to the fact I have gas. My actual consumption costs about a dollar a month. I was shocked how much my utilities increased moving to NYC.
posted by hoyland at 2:47 AM on December 26, 2021 [1 favorite]
The difference between my ConEd bill and my Austin electricity bill (where I didn't have gas) isn't my gas usage, it's fees related to the fact I have gas. My actual consumption costs about a dollar a month. I was shocked how much my utilities increased moving to NYC.
posted by hoyland at 2:47 AM on December 26, 2021 [1 favorite]
I hate cooking on electric
Better than cooking with the ambient heat of a burning planet, tho
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 2:56 AM on December 26, 2021 [13 favorites]
Better than cooking with the ambient heat of a burning planet, tho
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 2:56 AM on December 26, 2021 [13 favorites]
Not to mention that gas stoves cause strokes, asthma, COPD, low birthweight babies and miscarriages.
I'm glad the whole 'cooking with gas' PR campaign can be revealed for the scam that it is.
This is also a way to stabilize energy prices, since the gas industry has been boosting exports since 2015 in order to jack prices up; and those plans finally came to fruition in 2021.
posted by eustatic at 2:59 AM on December 26, 2021 [10 favorites]
I'm glad the whole 'cooking with gas' PR campaign can be revealed for the scam that it is.
This is also a way to stabilize energy prices, since the gas industry has been boosting exports since 2015 in order to jack prices up; and those plans finally came to fruition in 2021.
posted by eustatic at 2:59 AM on December 26, 2021 [10 favorites]
The electricity may be generated by burning natural gas for some time, though. But it will make it easier to switch to other sources (I vote for more nuclear power, it's the quickest way to go carbon neutral.)
posted by Bee'sWing at 4:38 AM on December 26, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by Bee'sWing at 4:38 AM on December 26, 2021 [2 favorites]
Con Ed only supplies gas for parts of the city; for example most of Brooklyn is National Grid. They do have a monopoly on electric delivery, though, which is maybe why this was so easy to pass; once KeySpan was sold to National Grid, "you're putting a NYC-based corporation out of business" was no longer a bargaining chip.
Induction cooktops are great if you have the right cookware; if you don't it's like trying to fry an egg on a warm car seat.
I'm really curious how the heat part is going to work out. I can't think of a single space in New York, residential or otherwise, that isn't currently heated by gas or oil. Is the electrical grid ready to handle a cold snap once a significant number of buildings are on electrical heat?
posted by phooky at 5:11 AM on December 26, 2021 [3 favorites]
Induction cooktops are great if you have the right cookware; if you don't it's like trying to fry an egg on a warm car seat.
I'm really curious how the heat part is going to work out. I can't think of a single space in New York, residential or otherwise, that isn't currently heated by gas or oil. Is the electrical grid ready to handle a cold snap once a significant number of buildings are on electrical heat?
posted by phooky at 5:11 AM on December 26, 2021 [3 favorites]
>7.4 kW induction cook-top
Building my parent’s house (admittedly 25 years ago) we felt we were being indulgent and kinda excessive installing a 15kVA stepdown (their place is at the end of its own 11 kV line), but convinced ourselves it was worth it to run 415V industrial equipment like the big plasma cutter. The idea of one domestic appliance drawing half of that on its own would have seemed crazy.
This whole decarbonisation via electrification thing is going to pose some interesting engineering challenges for the grid - all that energy that currently flows down gas pipes and down roads in fuel tankers is going to have to flow through copper instead. Even ignoring the greater source-flexibility requirements, just getting enough conductor area in place is going to be fun - a quick calculation suggests we’re going to need to at least double the mass of copper in the system over the next 25 years on top of normal growth (which I would guess represents at least another doubling). In some places it’ll be possible to just string additional cable, but then all the conversion infrastructure will have to be similarly upgraded - on the backbone level it might just make sense to step everything up one voltage tier while you’re at it, but that’s not going to work on the consumer level unless we feel like completely rewiring all the housing stock and replacing all the existing appliances.
(Induction cookers are neat, tho, and work surprisingly well with a range of cookware as long as you apply a bit of common sense)
posted by memetoclast at 5:22 AM on December 26, 2021 [7 favorites]
Building my parent’s house (admittedly 25 years ago) we felt we were being indulgent and kinda excessive installing a 15kVA stepdown (their place is at the end of its own 11 kV line), but convinced ourselves it was worth it to run 415V industrial equipment like the big plasma cutter. The idea of one domestic appliance drawing half of that on its own would have seemed crazy.
This whole decarbonisation via electrification thing is going to pose some interesting engineering challenges for the grid - all that energy that currently flows down gas pipes and down roads in fuel tankers is going to have to flow through copper instead. Even ignoring the greater source-flexibility requirements, just getting enough conductor area in place is going to be fun - a quick calculation suggests we’re going to need to at least double the mass of copper in the system over the next 25 years on top of normal growth (which I would guess represents at least another doubling). In some places it’ll be possible to just string additional cable, but then all the conversion infrastructure will have to be similarly upgraded - on the backbone level it might just make sense to step everything up one voltage tier while you’re at it, but that’s not going to work on the consumer level unless we feel like completely rewiring all the housing stock and replacing all the existing appliances.
(Induction cookers are neat, tho, and work surprisingly well with a range of cookware as long as you apply a bit of common sense)
posted by memetoclast at 5:22 AM on December 26, 2021 [7 favorites]
Does induction work for restaurants too, especially for types of cooking (like wok cooking) that depend on very high heat?
The first time I heard about them was in the late 90s, from an acquaintance working in the very fancy and expensive (for the time) restaurant in Toronto's CN Tower. It was deemed unsafe to run gas up that high.
posted by brachiopod at 6:38 AM on December 26, 2021 [2 favorites]
The first time I heard about them was in the late 90s, from an acquaintance working in the very fancy and expensive (for the time) restaurant in Toronto's CN Tower. It was deemed unsafe to run gas up that high.
posted by brachiopod at 6:38 AM on December 26, 2021 [2 favorites]
Does induction work for restaurants too, especially for types of cooking (like wok cooking) that depend on very high heat?
If you have the purpose-built induction cooktop that closely fits the wok then you can heat a carbon steel wok faster, hotter and more controllably with induction than with gas, so yes.
posted by flabdablet at 6:48 AM on December 26, 2021 [3 favorites]
If you have the purpose-built induction cooktop that closely fits the wok then you can heat a carbon steel wok faster, hotter and more controllably with induction than with gas, so yes.
posted by flabdablet at 6:48 AM on December 26, 2021 [3 favorites]
> you can get a single induction cooktop (like a safer hot plate) for like $80ish
Just before Christmas, I saw a lower power one in our local Costco for $45 CAD, which is like $35 US. They're surprisingly cheap now.
posted by bonehead at 7:04 AM on December 26, 2021
Just before Christmas, I saw a lower power one in our local Costco for $45 CAD, which is like $35 US. They're surprisingly cheap now.
posted by bonehead at 7:04 AM on December 26, 2021
IKEA sell a single burner induction hob for $50CAD which is well designed and doesn't have horrible squealing noises or absurdly loud fans like many. Also a decently long cord and a handle/hook so you can hang it on a wall when not using it.
posted by seanmpuckett at 7:09 AM on December 26, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by seanmpuckett at 7:09 AM on December 26, 2021 [1 favorite]
Induction is great, and I think the cooking effects of this are being way overblown relative to the heating effects. If we're lucky, this is effectively mandating cold-climate heat pumps in all new-construction buildings, which is very exciting! On the other hand, I can see developers installing resistive electric heating that winds up being very expensive for the eventual residents (not to mention less environmentally friendly than gas with NY's current electric supply) to save money on construction costs, just as they did with PTACs in the 2000s-2010s (New Yorkers may remember the "Fedders building" trend of that time period when most new buildings had individual heating+AC units built under each window rather than central heating/cooling). Hopefully people are smart enough not to fall for this again, and developers are smart enough to know this -- but we'll see.
posted by goingonit at 7:15 AM on December 26, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by goingonit at 7:15 AM on December 26, 2021 [2 favorites]
My small NYC co-op building doesn’t have gas lines to individual apartments. Shareholders for years have complained about not being able to have gas stoves for cooking, and every few years the board approaches Con-Ed to check what it would cost to run lines in the building and every time it’s an absurd amount of money. I am THRILLED that it’s off the table for good.
And yeah: induction all the way, baby. Insanely efficient, safe, and easy.
posted by minervous at 7:19 AM on December 26, 2021 [4 favorites]
And yeah: induction all the way, baby. Insanely efficient, safe, and easy.
posted by minervous at 7:19 AM on December 26, 2021 [4 favorites]
I love cooking on gas stoves too but electrifying our homes is one of the best things individuals can do to help fight global warming. Gas (or oil) heat is 25% of a household's carbon emissions. Gas hot water heaters are another 10%. Gas cooking is 5%. (The big one is cars; gas cars are 50% of a typical house's emissions. Maybe less so in NYC though.)
Saul Griffith's new book Electrify is an interesting overview of the path to electrification for our society. It's a remarkable big picture book and in particular talks a lot about big project concerns like how to get to the 4x electricity production we'll need when we electrify all of our energy consumption.
Electrify Everything in Your Home is the companion guide for individuals. It's got a chapter per major project. I just read the chapter on heat pump hot water heaters and it was a huge help. (Downside: the install may require a little wiring and ventilation. Upside: it's half the operating cost of gas, and less polluting).
Induction's definitely the good choice for electric cooktops. It's very responsive.
posted by Nelson at 7:37 AM on December 26, 2021 [7 favorites]
Saul Griffith's new book Electrify is an interesting overview of the path to electrification for our society. It's a remarkable big picture book and in particular talks a lot about big project concerns like how to get to the 4x electricity production we'll need when we electrify all of our energy consumption.
Electrify Everything in Your Home is the companion guide for individuals. It's got a chapter per major project. I just read the chapter on heat pump hot water heaters and it was a huge help. (Downside: the install may require a little wiring and ventilation. Upside: it's half the operating cost of gas, and less polluting).
Induction's definitely the good choice for electric cooktops. It's very responsive.
posted by Nelson at 7:37 AM on December 26, 2021 [7 favorites]
Unless they also mandate the *type* of electrical heat you can install, this won’t do much past making it even more expensive to live in NYC. Resistance-based heating (like space heaters etc.) is super-expensive and not very efficient. Mandatory pump heating would significantly improve this.
The other concern I have is resilience and disaster planning - when the power fails it’s nice to still be able to have heat/cook. Of course on the flip side no gas lines to deal with means fewer hazards for emergency crews.
And count me all-in on induction cooktops. Fast, efficient, easy to clean everything . . . I’ve never missed gas.
posted by aspersioncast at 7:43 AM on December 26, 2021 [3 favorites]
The other concern I have is resilience and disaster planning - when the power fails it’s nice to still be able to have heat/cook. Of course on the flip side no gas lines to deal with means fewer hazards for emergency crews.
And count me all-in on induction cooktops. Fast, efficient, easy to clean everything . . . I’ve never missed gas.
posted by aspersioncast at 7:43 AM on December 26, 2021 [3 favorites]
Induction is pretty cool. I have a couple of high end portable induction burners I’ve used in various projects for years. Can’t be beat for some things.
The problem with all electrical systems compared to gas is that they depend on contact (for thermal conduction in the case of traditional burners and for the magnetic action in induction). This means everything has to be flat flat flat in order to work well. Moreover, all the thermal energy going into the pan will come from the bottom in those contact areas. In contrast, a flame can transmit thermal energy into most any shape including curved surfaces, vintage cast iron pans with heat rings on the bottom and so on. If you have a curved geometry and a strait gauge pan, thermal energy can come in from the sides. You can lift the pan off the burner to toss the food around and thermal energy will still be going into the pan. You can use a round bottom wok. And so on. I used to use induction for stir frying in my old apartment that had the typical NYC rental low end range. My new place has one of the old Wolf ranges with open burners and it’s like night and day compared to using induction. It’s just better.
Induction is cool, yes. It’s great to be able to set a temp for pressure cooking and walk away, for example. More traditional electric technologies have greatly improved as well. And I don’t disagree that there may be sound environmental reasons for this (although I doubt very much it will ever be enacted). But as someone who has cooked extensively on just about every available technology, for 95% of stovetop tasks a good gas system is by far superior. It’s just not true to say that electric is “just as good.” It isn’t. Going by performance: gas for stovetops, electric for ovens.
posted by slkinsey at 7:57 AM on December 26, 2021 [8 favorites]
The problem with all electrical systems compared to gas is that they depend on contact (for thermal conduction in the case of traditional burners and for the magnetic action in induction). This means everything has to be flat flat flat in order to work well. Moreover, all the thermal energy going into the pan will come from the bottom in those contact areas. In contrast, a flame can transmit thermal energy into most any shape including curved surfaces, vintage cast iron pans with heat rings on the bottom and so on. If you have a curved geometry and a strait gauge pan, thermal energy can come in from the sides. You can lift the pan off the burner to toss the food around and thermal energy will still be going into the pan. You can use a round bottom wok. And so on. I used to use induction for stir frying in my old apartment that had the typical NYC rental low end range. My new place has one of the old Wolf ranges with open burners and it’s like night and day compared to using induction. It’s just better.
Induction is cool, yes. It’s great to be able to set a temp for pressure cooking and walk away, for example. More traditional electric technologies have greatly improved as well. And I don’t disagree that there may be sound environmental reasons for this (although I doubt very much it will ever be enacted). But as someone who has cooked extensively on just about every available technology, for 95% of stovetop tasks a good gas system is by far superior. It’s just not true to say that electric is “just as good.” It isn’t. Going by performance: gas for stovetops, electric for ovens.
posted by slkinsey at 7:57 AM on December 26, 2021 [8 favorites]
Rooting for the Ikea (and similar) portable induction cooktops. I live alone, so if I could ditch the giant oven/stovetop combo monster for a convection oven that fits my casserole dishes/cookware and a series of wall-hangable induction plates? That’s another two large cabinets I could fit in there! Plus the countertop space.
I’m really hoping that standard kitchens designs undergo another rethink in the next few years.
posted by Slackermagee at 8:53 AM on December 26, 2021 [6 favorites]
I’m really hoping that standard kitchens designs undergo another rethink in the next few years.
posted by Slackermagee at 8:53 AM on December 26, 2021 [6 favorites]
Our house is all electric, except for the heat, which is a gas-burning stove that replaced a wood-burning stove. It requires no electricity at all, and because our house is very open and airy, that gas stove heats the entire house, even when the power is out. That has been the single biggest reason for not replacing it, as our power here is somewhat unreliable, and repairs are not exactly fast. (A couple years ago, we were without power for 3.5 days in the middle of winter, and having 100% heating capacity in the middle of that was amazing.) In the middle of winter, our heating bill peaks at about $120/month, which is on the low side for a house our size.
Even so, we have been wanting to install a split heat pump for a while now, but have not felt safe bringing contractors into the house during the pandemic. From the estimates we've received, our anticipated heating costs should be even lower with the heat pump, plus we'll have some cooling capacity in the summer, which is nice. This house has never had any sort of forced-air system, so there is no ductwork at all, and adding that would be extremely difficult and expensive. Because the house is open and airy, the big blank wall above the gas stove is a perfect location for the heat pump unit, and should heat (and cool!) the house at least as well as the gas stove.
As much as we'd like to get away from fossil fuels completely, we plan to keep the gas stove as a backup, and will likely have our gas service disconnected most of the time, and have it reconnected for perhaps November - March just as a backup. I have a small 5000W portable generator for keeping the fridges and freezer going during an outage, and I might be able to run the heat pump off a generator, but surely that's worse (more polluting and less efficient) than just burning the natural gas for heat instead.
posted by xedrik at 8:58 AM on December 26, 2021
Even so, we have been wanting to install a split heat pump for a while now, but have not felt safe bringing contractors into the house during the pandemic. From the estimates we've received, our anticipated heating costs should be even lower with the heat pump, plus we'll have some cooling capacity in the summer, which is nice. This house has never had any sort of forced-air system, so there is no ductwork at all, and adding that would be extremely difficult and expensive. Because the house is open and airy, the big blank wall above the gas stove is a perfect location for the heat pump unit, and should heat (and cool!) the house at least as well as the gas stove.
As much as we'd like to get away from fossil fuels completely, we plan to keep the gas stove as a backup, and will likely have our gas service disconnected most of the time, and have it reconnected for perhaps November - March just as a backup. I have a small 5000W portable generator for keeping the fridges and freezer going during an outage, and I might be able to run the heat pump off a generator, but surely that's worse (more polluting and less efficient) than just burning the natural gas for heat instead.
posted by xedrik at 8:58 AM on December 26, 2021
Damn, closed my tablet and lost a long comment, so to summarise:
1) I remember being in Manhattan in July (2010, IIRC) - seemed to be no problem maintaining a 20K delta-T between indoors and on the street even with solar forcing and the lower capacity of both heat pumps and the grid in the summer scenario. I come from a hot place, but I was sufficiently struck by the effect that I looked up some electricity-use and thermal maps - even back then energy use during the day was running at or above 2kW per square meter, or to put it another way, human activity was contributing more than 2/3 of the total heat input during the day, the blazing sun less than 1/3. In the winter scenario, waste heat from human activity improves rather than degrades the efficiency of the heat transfer systems so when human energy use is so dominant a factor winter can be a lot more energy efficient than summer.
On that basis, and presuming that electrical heating is via heat pump and not resistance or some even less efficient method (lasers? space elevators?) I would think even as it stands the NYC grid should be fine.
2) Induction cookers in the normal configuration is definitely designed for flat bottomed containers (of moderately conductive, relatively thick material), but just like some gas burners are shaped to deliver heat to various containers, there is no reason you can't modify the geometry of the coils, or the thickness/resistivity of the vessel walls. Of course then we are back to the custom cookware/custom cooktop limitation but I can imagine a future where a semi-spherical depressed wok heater was part of a standard induction cook top.
All that said, yes combustion cook tops are in some ways more versatile - won't be using an induction cooker to fuse together the end of a frayed polymer rope or demonstrate the sodium D line any time soon - and perhaps some people will find that valuable enough to pay to price for synthetic methane or propane to run one: recent estimates (motivated by the difficulty finding substitutes for hydrocarbons as airliner fuel) suggest we can fix atmospheric CO2 into hydrocarbons using zero-carbon-at-point-of-generation electricity for around $10/kg
3) Induction heating is used to surface harden steel, melt ZrO2 in the production of crystalline cubic zirconia and convert materials into plasma for atomic emission spectrography - I'm pretty sure it can handle any cooking temperature you need.
posted by memetoclast at 9:06 AM on December 26, 2021 [3 favorites]
1) I remember being in Manhattan in July (2010, IIRC) - seemed to be no problem maintaining a 20K delta-T between indoors and on the street even with solar forcing and the lower capacity of both heat pumps and the grid in the summer scenario. I come from a hot place, but I was sufficiently struck by the effect that I looked up some electricity-use and thermal maps - even back then energy use during the day was running at or above 2kW per square meter, or to put it another way, human activity was contributing more than 2/3 of the total heat input during the day, the blazing sun less than 1/3. In the winter scenario, waste heat from human activity improves rather than degrades the efficiency of the heat transfer systems so when human energy use is so dominant a factor winter can be a lot more energy efficient than summer.
On that basis, and presuming that electrical heating is via heat pump and not resistance or some even less efficient method (lasers? space elevators?) I would think even as it stands the NYC grid should be fine.
2) Induction cookers in the normal configuration is definitely designed for flat bottomed containers (of moderately conductive, relatively thick material), but just like some gas burners are shaped to deliver heat to various containers, there is no reason you can't modify the geometry of the coils, or the thickness/resistivity of the vessel walls. Of course then we are back to the custom cookware/custom cooktop limitation but I can imagine a future where a semi-spherical depressed wok heater was part of a standard induction cook top.
All that said, yes combustion cook tops are in some ways more versatile - won't be using an induction cooker to fuse together the end of a frayed polymer rope or demonstrate the sodium D line any time soon - and perhaps some people will find that valuable enough to pay to price for synthetic methane or propane to run one: recent estimates (motivated by the difficulty finding substitutes for hydrocarbons as airliner fuel) suggest we can fix atmospheric CO2 into hydrocarbons using zero-carbon-at-point-of-generation electricity for around $10/kg
3) Induction heating is used to surface harden steel, melt ZrO2 in the production of crystalline cubic zirconia and convert materials into plasma for atomic emission spectrography - I'm pretty sure it can handle any cooking temperature you need.
posted by memetoclast at 9:06 AM on December 26, 2021 [3 favorites]
It’s just not true to say that electric is “just as good.” It isn’t.
We have to decarbonize. Even allowing for gas stove tops being better than electric for some purposes they should go away. We've made this sacrifice repeatedly over the years when products are deemed too damaging to the environment. I can't buy carbon tet parts cleaner or leaded gas or washing detergent with TSP anymore because these things are bad for the environment even though they are superior to replacements.
Building my parent’s house (admittedly 25 years ago) we felt we were being indulgent and kinda excessive installing a 15kVA stepdown (their place is at the end of its own 11 kV line), but convinced ourselves it was worth it to run 415V industrial equipment like the big plasma cutter. The idea of one domestic appliance drawing half of that on its own would have seemed crazy.
A 15 kVA transformer sounds wrong for a place with industrial equipment like big plasma cutters as it's only around a 60 amp service (depending on service factors etc). That doesn't even meet the minimum requirements for a Canadian single family house over 80 m2. Also our load calculations already assume all ranges draw up to 12 kW so installing a range rated for 10.5-12 kW (the 7.4 + a typical 3-4.5 for the oven) so that isn't an unusual requirement either. I believe the US has similar requirements.
posted by Mitheral at 9:46 AM on December 26, 2021 [5 favorites]
We have to decarbonize. Even allowing for gas stove tops being better than electric for some purposes they should go away. We've made this sacrifice repeatedly over the years when products are deemed too damaging to the environment. I can't buy carbon tet parts cleaner or leaded gas or washing detergent with TSP anymore because these things are bad for the environment even though they are superior to replacements.
Building my parent’s house (admittedly 25 years ago) we felt we were being indulgent and kinda excessive installing a 15kVA stepdown (their place is at the end of its own 11 kV line), but convinced ourselves it was worth it to run 415V industrial equipment like the big plasma cutter. The idea of one domestic appliance drawing half of that on its own would have seemed crazy.
A 15 kVA transformer sounds wrong for a place with industrial equipment like big plasma cutters as it's only around a 60 amp service (depending on service factors etc). That doesn't even meet the minimum requirements for a Canadian single family house over 80 m2. Also our load calculations already assume all ranges draw up to 12 kW so installing a range rated for 10.5-12 kW (the 7.4 + a typical 3-4.5 for the oven) so that isn't an unusual requirement either. I believe the US has similar requirements.
posted by Mitheral at 9:46 AM on December 26, 2021 [5 favorites]
We have to decarbonize. Even allowing for gas stove tops being better than electric for some purposes they should go away. We've made this sacrifice repeatedly over the years when products are deemed too damaging to the environment.
I don’t disagree with your main point, but what evidence I’ve seen indicates that gas cooktops represent an infinitesimal percentage of CO2 production. It’s hard to see how this wouldn’t be true, since the vast majority of residential users run their stoves for less than an hour a day on average. Starting with gas ranges strikes me as a bit ridiculous, and it’s hardly like they’re going to make residents get rid of their existing appliances and replace them with electric. This is especially true in someplace like Manhattan where there are plenty of circa 100 year old buildings that would need an electrical upgrade to even think about making something like that happen. Still plenty of old technology about — ConEd still delivers steam in the lower half of the island.
Circling back, what makes me roll my eyes about this is that it seems like most of the new construction around here is for upper income/wealth customers, and if there is a demand for gas ranges in those apartments, I’m quite sure they will get it.
posted by slkinsey at 10:25 AM on December 26, 2021 [2 favorites]
I don’t disagree with your main point, but what evidence I’ve seen indicates that gas cooktops represent an infinitesimal percentage of CO2 production. It’s hard to see how this wouldn’t be true, since the vast majority of residential users run their stoves for less than an hour a day on average. Starting with gas ranges strikes me as a bit ridiculous, and it’s hardly like they’re going to make residents get rid of their existing appliances and replace them with electric. This is especially true in someplace like Manhattan where there are plenty of circa 100 year old buildings that would need an electrical upgrade to even think about making something like that happen. Still plenty of old technology about — ConEd still delivers steam in the lower half of the island.
Circling back, what makes me roll my eyes about this is that it seems like most of the new construction around here is for upper income/wealth customers, and if there is a demand for gas ranges in those apartments, I’m quite sure they will get it.
posted by slkinsey at 10:25 AM on December 26, 2021 [2 favorites]
gas cooktops represent an infinitesimal percentage of CO2 production.
I posted the numbers up above, with a citation (which has much deeper citations behind it). Gas cooktops are 5% of a typical home's emissions. A gas hot water heater is 2x that, the gas heater is 5x that. I don't think switching from gas cooktops is the highest priority either but it's not "infinitesimal". It's 5%.
Anyway that's all a strawman argument. They aren't "starting with gas ranges". They're decarbonizing all home energy supply, including the bigger in-house consumers. Gas cooktops are a casualty.
if there is a demand for gas ranges in those apartments, I’m quite sure they will get it
Maybe. No gas utility service means you're stuck with hauling in propane tanks or something. It's a meaningful change.
posted by Nelson at 10:58 AM on December 26, 2021 [10 favorites]
I posted the numbers up above, with a citation (which has much deeper citations behind it). Gas cooktops are 5% of a typical home's emissions. A gas hot water heater is 2x that, the gas heater is 5x that. I don't think switching from gas cooktops is the highest priority either but it's not "infinitesimal". It's 5%.
Anyway that's all a strawman argument. They aren't "starting with gas ranges". They're decarbonizing all home energy supply, including the bigger in-house consumers. Gas cooktops are a casualty.
if there is a demand for gas ranges in those apartments, I’m quite sure they will get it
Maybe. No gas utility service means you're stuck with hauling in propane tanks or something. It's a meaningful change.
posted by Nelson at 10:58 AM on December 26, 2021 [10 favorites]
One big challenge with the electrification push is electricity supply. As noted above, many current homes don't have the necessary supply. The Electrify Everything guide suggests upgrading a home to 200A supply and has a whole chapter on how to do that. Estimated cost for a retrofit: $750-$4000. Not cheap but not awful. (More on costs.) The article we're discussing is about new construction though, and planning now for 200A adds a very modest cost to a new building.
The other problem is grid supply; Electrify estimates the US will need 4x the current electricity production to electrify everything in the US (both homes and commerical). And right now a lot of our electricity comes from really bad sources, particularly on the East Coast with its coal plants. Electrify argues we need a wartime-level mobilization to build new clean power supplies in the US. And mostly solar/hydro at that, sadly nuclear seems to just be not manageable enough to spin up at the rate we need. Currently there's no political will in the US to do any of this. But NY is forcing the issue here, at least in its region.
posted by Nelson at 11:04 AM on December 26, 2021 [4 favorites]
The other problem is grid supply; Electrify estimates the US will need 4x the current electricity production to electrify everything in the US (both homes and commerical). And right now a lot of our electricity comes from really bad sources, particularly on the East Coast with its coal plants. Electrify argues we need a wartime-level mobilization to build new clean power supplies in the US. And mostly solar/hydro at that, sadly nuclear seems to just be not manageable enough to spin up at the rate we need. Currently there's no political will in the US to do any of this. But NY is forcing the issue here, at least in its region.
posted by Nelson at 11:04 AM on December 26, 2021 [4 favorites]
Another advantage to induction cookers (if you live in a hot climate) is that they don't heat up the house like other stoves do. They're instant on and instant off, and you can put your hand on the cooking surface a minute after you're done cooking.
Your pans have to stick to a magnet, or they won't work, however.
posted by Bee'sWing at 12:34 PM on December 26, 2021
Your pans have to stick to a magnet, or they won't work, however.
posted by Bee'sWing at 12:34 PM on December 26, 2021
you can put your hand on the cooking surface a minute after you're done cooking
Not on any induction burner I've ever used. A hot pan will heat up the surface of the burner, after all. When I turn mine off the display flashes something like "HOT" until the surface has cooled down sufficiently to touch safely. If I've used it at a particularly high setting it can take quite some time to cool down.
posted by slkinsey at 12:51 PM on December 26, 2021 [3 favorites]
Not on any induction burner I've ever used. A hot pan will heat up the surface of the burner, after all. When I turn mine off the display flashes something like "HOT" until the surface has cooled down sufficiently to touch safely. If I've used it at a particularly high setting it can take quite some time to cool down.
posted by slkinsey at 12:51 PM on December 26, 2021 [3 favorites]
My understanding is that research has increasingly found that indoor gas ranges for cooking are linked to a variety of respiratory conditions and that they are probably not good for you.
posted by interogative mood at 1:45 PM on December 26, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 1:45 PM on December 26, 2021 [2 favorites]
I did an experiment about whether my propane stove produce PM2.5 pollution (ie: soot). Mine does not. That's as expected as long as the stove is working right: propane combustion is remarkably simple and produces only water vapor and carbon dioxide. A very broken stove might produce some PM2.5 but if that's happening the much bigger risk is the carbon monoxide it's likely throwing off, that can kill you pretty quick in a poorly ventilated space.
But there are broader studies showing some risks associated with gas stoves indoors. The big one there is NO2, which is definitely linked to respiratory problems. I haven't read anything reliable on how a gas stove produces NO2; contaminants, more complex products in natural gas (vs propane), or maybe oxidizing the N2 in the air? I have no idea.
One thing that confounds a lot of this research is that cooking produces all sorts of pollution. PM2.5 spikes in my house when I cook bacon on my gas stove. But that's soot from browning meat and grease, not from the source of heat itself, and presumably is more or less the same on an electric cooktop. This study is frequently cited as a source for "gas stoves cause pollution" but it definitely is confounding all sorts of source of pollutants, not just the burning gas.
All this is a long winded way of saying I'm not convinced burning gas in a functioning cooktop with proper ventilation is really any more dangerous to an individual's health. It does emit CO2 though and cutting that out is a small but meaningful help for global warming.
posted by Nelson at 2:29 PM on December 26, 2021 [8 favorites]
But there are broader studies showing some risks associated with gas stoves indoors. The big one there is NO2, which is definitely linked to respiratory problems. I haven't read anything reliable on how a gas stove produces NO2; contaminants, more complex products in natural gas (vs propane), or maybe oxidizing the N2 in the air? I have no idea.
One thing that confounds a lot of this research is that cooking produces all sorts of pollution. PM2.5 spikes in my house when I cook bacon on my gas stove. But that's soot from browning meat and grease, not from the source of heat itself, and presumably is more or less the same on an electric cooktop. This study is frequently cited as a source for "gas stoves cause pollution" but it definitely is confounding all sorts of source of pollutants, not just the burning gas.
All this is a long winded way of saying I'm not convinced burning gas in a functioning cooktop with proper ventilation is really any more dangerous to an individual's health. It does emit CO2 though and cutting that out is a small but meaningful help for global warming.
posted by Nelson at 2:29 PM on December 26, 2021 [8 favorites]
Better than cooking with the ambient heat of a burning planet, tho
posted by DeepSeaHaggis
But how else are we going to have deep sea haggis??
On a more serious topic, Berkeley banned natural gas in new buildings a couple years ago, and the rest of the Bay Area is gradually following suit. The benefits are clear, but I do worry about how this eventually creates even more demand for the older, grandfathered apartments that constitute our diminishing rent-controlled housing stock. (California state law prohibits cities from imposing rent control on post-1980s buildings.)
Induction may be great, but for most apartment seekers, I suspect the choice will be gas vs. crappy electric coils for a long time, and one of those is a lot more desirable than the other.
posted by aws17576 at 2:51 PM on December 26, 2021
posted by DeepSeaHaggis
But how else are we going to have deep sea haggis??
On a more serious topic, Berkeley banned natural gas in new buildings a couple years ago, and the rest of the Bay Area is gradually following suit. The benefits are clear, but I do worry about how this eventually creates even more demand for the older, grandfathered apartments that constitute our diminishing rent-controlled housing stock. (California state law prohibits cities from imposing rent control on post-1980s buildings.)
Induction may be great, but for most apartment seekers, I suspect the choice will be gas vs. crappy electric coils for a long time, and one of those is a lot more desirable than the other.
posted by aws17576 at 2:51 PM on December 26, 2021
Adjacent to gas cooktops is the need to vent the combustion gasses, which means a range hood for a gas appliance must exhaust more air than one for electric, which only needs to vent water vapor and fumes. There is also the large amount of waste heat generated by gas (and resistance electric) that must be accounted for when sizing the a/c system.
For 90% of typical cooking applications, an induction range is just as good as a gas top (and better than resistance electric) with less environmental damage.
If NYC really wants to get on the forefront and promote electric heat, they would develop district-level geothermal loops that capture waste heat from the subway and sewer mains for individual buildings to use.
posted by Big Al 8000 at 3:01 PM on December 26, 2021 [2 favorites]
For 90% of typical cooking applications, an induction range is just as good as a gas top (and better than resistance electric) with less environmental damage.
If NYC really wants to get on the forefront and promote electric heat, they would develop district-level geothermal loops that capture waste heat from the subway and sewer mains for individual buildings to use.
posted by Big Al 8000 at 3:01 PM on December 26, 2021 [2 favorites]
We have induction. It does everything from the most gentle heat through to getting a steel wok to a dull red glow. I love it.
My in-laws have a fancy six-burner gas hob, including a two-ring wok burner. I curse it every time I use it. One thing it definitely does better than induction: heating pot handles.
My house is all-electric and we have a lot of solar panels. Our annual electricity bill is zero.
posted by the duck by the oboe at 3:18 PM on December 26, 2021 [13 favorites]
My in-laws have a fancy six-burner gas hob, including a two-ring wok burner. I curse it every time I use it. One thing it definitely does better than induction: heating pot handles.
My house is all-electric and we have a lot of solar panels. Our annual electricity bill is zero.
posted by the duck by the oboe at 3:18 PM on December 26, 2021 [13 favorites]
The horrible coils are not the only type of electric stovetop! I always had the POS coils and believed that electric inherently sucked, until my current place where the oven has a flat glass-top stove, and it's great. Heat level feels very responsive to me, it's probably not good enough for wild molecular gastronomy stuff but YMMV. It's probably not the lowest-end unit out there, but I don't get the sense that it's fancier than the dreaded coil by (no pun intended) degrees.
posted by dusty potato at 3:29 PM on December 26, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by dusty potato at 3:29 PM on December 26, 2021 [4 favorites]
perhaps some people will find that valuable enough to pay to price for synthetic methane or propane to run one: recent estimates (motivated by the difficulty finding substitutes for hydrocarbons as airliner fuel) suggest we can fix atmospheric CO2 into hydrocarbons using zero-carbon-at-point-of-generation electricity for around $10/kg
That's a plan that makes absolutely no sense given an ongoing supply of food scraps that will degrade into methane all by themselves. Better for them to do that upstream of your own stove than in a landfill.
posted by flabdablet at 4:41 PM on December 26, 2021
That's a plan that makes absolutely no sense given an ongoing supply of food scraps that will degrade into methane all by themselves. Better for them to do that upstream of your own stove than in a landfill.
posted by flabdablet at 4:41 PM on December 26, 2021
It certainly seems unfair to go after gas heat while everyone is still allowed to drive cars.
posted by dame at 5:17 PM on December 26, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by dame at 5:17 PM on December 26, 2021 [3 favorites]
If you have the purpose-built induction cooktop that closely fits the wok then you can heat a carbon steel wok faster, hotter and more controllably with induction than with gas, so yes.
Traditional wok cooking calls for letting the flame jump over the lip of the wok to ignite the oil vapors and get "wok hei". It's the difference that truly distinguishes real Chinese from amateur. But this effect can be reproduced with a propane torch
posted by dis_integration at 5:41 PM on December 26, 2021 [2 favorites]
Traditional wok cooking calls for letting the flame jump over the lip of the wok to ignite the oil vapors and get "wok hei". It's the difference that truly distinguishes real Chinese from amateur. But this effect can be reproduced with a propane torch
posted by dis_integration at 5:41 PM on December 26, 2021 [2 favorites]
It certainly seems unfair to go after gas heat while everyone is still allowed to drive cars.
We need to go after both, and at the same time: now.
posted by biffa at 5:43 PM on December 26, 2021 [6 favorites]
We need to go after both, and at the same time: now.
posted by biffa at 5:43 PM on December 26, 2021 [6 favorites]
Please be aware that the rapid magnetic changes of induction cooktops can interfere with pacemakers.
posted by cheshyre at 5:56 PM on December 26, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by cheshyre at 5:56 PM on December 26, 2021 [1 favorite]
ry an induction cooktop. Used with compatible pans they're as responsive as gas. Way easier to clean than a gas cooktop as well.
So much, always wanted a gas cooktop but induction is very good, and the cleaning is order of magnitudes more efficient. If you love pasta, this is a game changer, it boils water crazy fast.
One of the drawbacks is that you can't tilt the pan and keep receiving heat like when you're basting meat with butter, but you can use the stored heat in the pan to come close to achieving the same effect.
You won't get wok hei, but you're most likely not getting it from a gas stove either (restaurant wok burners are on a whole different level). The annoying thing is that your wok has to be flat bottom, and the thin carbon steel has a tendency to warp when heated and doesn't stay flat (hello spinning wok). Also it's a PITA to season since it's really hard to heat the walls of the wok on induction, which is another difference from using gas, with a round bottom wok.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 8:42 PM on December 26, 2021 [4 favorites]
So much, always wanted a gas cooktop but induction is very good, and the cleaning is order of magnitudes more efficient. If you love pasta, this is a game changer, it boils water crazy fast.
One of the drawbacks is that you can't tilt the pan and keep receiving heat like when you're basting meat with butter, but you can use the stored heat in the pan to come close to achieving the same effect.
You won't get wok hei, but you're most likely not getting it from a gas stove either (restaurant wok burners are on a whole different level). The annoying thing is that your wok has to be flat bottom, and the thin carbon steel has a tendency to warp when heated and doesn't stay flat (hello spinning wok). Also it's a PITA to season since it's really hard to heat the walls of the wok on induction, which is another difference from using gas, with a round bottom wok.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 8:42 PM on December 26, 2021 [4 favorites]
Someone mentioned above that they look forward to rethinking how kitchens are designed to accommodate the new all-electric paradigm. Those days are already here, if you want them. The traditional 30” range with four burners and a 6 cubic foot oven is really designed for big cooking events that rarely happen in most households. I bet most people could replace that range with a two-burner induction setup and a counter-top oven. No 240v electrical needed and they’re cheaper than a range, to boot.
The conversion to all-electric will require more juice but it isn’t as dramatic as the naysayers make it seem. Part of the change means rethinking how electricity is generated and delivered to the user. There are very few places in the continental US that wouldn’t be able to use on-site solar power. Switching vehicles to electric means they will draw power to fill the battery but those batteries can also become a supplemental power source in periods of high demand. No, the current system of centralized generation distributing power isn’t up to the task but we really don’t need it to be — if we implement the right systems to distribute the load.
posted by Big Al 8000 at 9:39 PM on December 26, 2021 [5 favorites]
The conversion to all-electric will require more juice but it isn’t as dramatic as the naysayers make it seem. Part of the change means rethinking how electricity is generated and delivered to the user. There are very few places in the continental US that wouldn’t be able to use on-site solar power. Switching vehicles to electric means they will draw power to fill the battery but those batteries can also become a supplemental power source in periods of high demand. No, the current system of centralized generation distributing power isn’t up to the task but we really don’t need it to be — if we implement the right systems to distribute the load.
posted by Big Al 8000 at 9:39 PM on December 26, 2021 [5 favorites]
if we implement the right systems to distribute the load
and to distribute the supply as well.
If my next door neighbour is generating 5kW of solar energy when both our houses are consuming 3kW, that's a 2kW load on the wires between our houses and a 1kW draw from the street transformer. That's much less than the 6kW that the street transformer and wires would have needed to deal with before solar panels were a thing. And vehicle-to-grid peak shaving will probably become ubiquitous enough to make further improvements along these lines over about the same time scale as it's going to take to achieve total electrification.
posted by flabdablet at 9:52 PM on December 26, 2021 [4 favorites]
and to distribute the supply as well.
If my next door neighbour is generating 5kW of solar energy when both our houses are consuming 3kW, that's a 2kW load on the wires between our houses and a 1kW draw from the street transformer. That's much less than the 6kW that the street transformer and wires would have needed to deal with before solar panels were a thing. And vehicle-to-grid peak shaving will probably become ubiquitous enough to make further improvements along these lines over about the same time scale as it's going to take to achieve total electrification.
posted by flabdablet at 9:52 PM on December 26, 2021 [4 favorites]
Please be aware that the rapid magnetic changes of induction cooktops can interfere with pacemakers.
Bit of a derail, but my understanding is that this has been tested quite a bit at this point and that the risks are quite low.
posted by aspersioncast at 10:22 PM on December 26, 2021 [2 favorites]
Bit of a derail, but my understanding is that this has been tested quite a bit at this point and that the risks are quite low.
posted by aspersioncast at 10:22 PM on December 26, 2021 [2 favorites]
> A 15 kVA transformer sounds wrong for a place with industrial equipment like big plasma cutters
I think the plasma pulls about 25 amps per phase peak (at 415 - about 10kVA)) so I guess it’s not ‘big’ by some standards - still makes a good cut in half inch plate tho (or a kinda tatty one in inch). The air compressor is another 5kVA which is plenty (60 CFM) for domestic use. The roughing vacuum pump also has about a 5 kVA motor on it, plus another couple for the diffusion pump. Those all used to make the house lights flicker before they switched the lighting circuit over to battery-backed solar. The system wasn’t designed like a commercial install where you have multiple employees all using the gear - they just needed enough capacity to run one heavy load at a time without dropping a pole fuse.
While I can’t speak to US or Canadian spec, I know that just down the road from them my friend’s place has their 240V feed coming from 11 kV via a 100kVA stepdown that also supplies 20 other homes. To be fair, it’s a fairly mild climate (hot in summer, but desired room temp is a lot closer to 40C than to -40C) and like I said, 25 years ago. If I were doing it now would definitely go for at least twice that (IIRC the largest on offer back then was 25 kVA, but that’s probably because we ‘cheap’ed out getting the high tension lines strung (it was only, like, 100k 1990 dollars) - in retrospect they probably should have sprung for heavier HT conductors.)
Which brings us back to the point - gonna need a lot more conductor on the grid when we’re all cooking on induction ranges and charging electric cars.
posted by memetoclast at 2:28 AM on December 27, 2021
I think the plasma pulls about 25 amps per phase peak (at 415 - about 10kVA)) so I guess it’s not ‘big’ by some standards - still makes a good cut in half inch plate tho (or a kinda tatty one in inch). The air compressor is another 5kVA which is plenty (60 CFM) for domestic use. The roughing vacuum pump also has about a 5 kVA motor on it, plus another couple for the diffusion pump. Those all used to make the house lights flicker before they switched the lighting circuit over to battery-backed solar. The system wasn’t designed like a commercial install where you have multiple employees all using the gear - they just needed enough capacity to run one heavy load at a time without dropping a pole fuse.
While I can’t speak to US or Canadian spec, I know that just down the road from them my friend’s place has their 240V feed coming from 11 kV via a 100kVA stepdown that also supplies 20 other homes. To be fair, it’s a fairly mild climate (hot in summer, but desired room temp is a lot closer to 40C than to -40C) and like I said, 25 years ago. If I were doing it now would definitely go for at least twice that (IIRC the largest on offer back then was 25 kVA, but that’s probably because we ‘cheap’ed out getting the high tension lines strung (it was only, like, 100k 1990 dollars) - in retrospect they probably should have sprung for heavier HT conductors.)
Which brings us back to the point - gonna need a lot more conductor on the grid when we’re all cooking on induction ranges and charging electric cars.
posted by memetoclast at 2:28 AM on December 27, 2021
You won't get wok hei, but you're most likely not getting it from a gas stove either (restaurant wok burners are on a whole different level).
I just learned that restaurant induction wok burners exist, run off 240v, and list for about $2000.
posted by mikelieman at 7:28 AM on December 27, 2021 [1 favorite]
I just learned that restaurant induction wok burners exist, run off 240v, and list for about $2000.
posted by mikelieman at 7:28 AM on December 27, 2021 [1 favorite]
WRT propane use in the USA, Higher prices to fuel rise in 2021-22 winter heating bills, Brian Richesson, LPGas Magazine, October 26, 2021:
*Other fuels are discussed in detail in the EIA Winter Fuels Outlook, October 2021 report:
One winter fuel they don’t mention is firewood, but the news is not good: Soaring Fuel Prices Stoke Rush to Stockpile Firewood Across U.S. – Soaring prices for natural gas, propane and oil are pushing many to try heating their homes at least partially with old-fashioned wood, Maxwell Adler, Bloomberg, November 20, 2021 [alternate Archive.org link].
posted by cenoxo at 9:39 AM on December 27, 2021 [2 favorites]
Households across the U.S. will spend more on energy this winter compared with the past several winters because of higher prices and slightly colder temperatures expected for much of the country, according to the U.S. Energy Information Administration’s (EIA) Winter Fuels Outlook [direct link to annual EIA Winter Fuels Outlooks, October 2021–1999 (PDFs)*].More propane trends are summarized in the LPGM article.
The 5 percent of U.S. households that heat primarily with propane will see the largest increase among winter heating fuels compared to last winter. EIA says those propane-heated households will spend 54 percent, or $631, more on average this winter – 94 percent more in a colder winter and 29 percent more in a warmer winter.
EIA’s Winter Fuels Outlook includes propane forecasts for the South, for the first time, in addition to the Northeast and Midwest….
*Other fuels are discussed in detail in the EIA Winter Fuels Outlook, October 2021 report:
As we head into the winter of 2021–22, retail prices for energy are at or near multiyear highs in the United States. The high prices follow changes to energy supply and demand patterns in response to the COVID-19 pandemic. We expect that households across the United States will spend more on energy this winter compared with the past several winters because of these higher energy prices and because we assume a slightly colder winter than last year in much of the United States.More analysis in the report.
Even when we vary weather expectations, we expect the increase in energy prices as the United States returns to economic growth to mean higher residential energy bills this winter:
- We expect that the nearly half of U.S. households that heat primarily with natural gas will spend 30% more than they spent last winter on average—50% more if the winter is 10% colder-than-average and 22% more if the winter is 10% warmer-than-average.
- We expect the 41% of U.S. households that heat primarily with electricity will spend 6% more—15% more in a colder winter and 4% more in a warmer winter.
- The 5% of U.S. households that heat primarily with propane will spend 54% more—94% more in a colder winter and 29% more in a warmer winter.
- The 4% of U.S. households that heat primarily with heating oil will spend 43% more— 59% more in a colder winter and 30% more in a warmer winter….
One winter fuel they don’t mention is firewood, but the news is not good: Soaring Fuel Prices Stoke Rush to Stockpile Firewood Across U.S. – Soaring prices for natural gas, propane and oil are pushing many to try heating their homes at least partially with old-fashioned wood, Maxwell Adler, Bloomberg, November 20, 2021 [alternate Archive.org link].
posted by cenoxo at 9:39 AM on December 27, 2021 [2 favorites]
I'm all for electrification but as I sit here listening to my propane backup generator humming along, I'm reminded that the electricity supply has to be reliable. 8 inches of snow in Grass Valley CA and the electricity goes out over the whole region, probably for a day or three. And that's on top of all the other regular power outages, two or three year. And the scheduled PSPS outages because PG&E is incapable of running a safe and reliable power grid.
One nice thing about a wood burning fireplace or a gas stove is it's pretty resilient. Different fuel supply, either outside your front door or else coming from a pipe buried in the ground.
And DIY solutions for electricity backup are not awesome. It'd cost me at least $60,000 just to buy the Tesla Powerwalls I'd need to have enough juice to get through a three day power outage. And they'll wear out in ten years. And solar production is no good on a snowy winter day. More reliable electric grids and resilient microgrids are great ideas, but the US lacks the political will to make that happen.
posted by Nelson at 11:02 AM on December 27, 2021 [3 favorites]
One nice thing about a wood burning fireplace or a gas stove is it's pretty resilient. Different fuel supply, either outside your front door or else coming from a pipe buried in the ground.
And DIY solutions for electricity backup are not awesome. It'd cost me at least $60,000 just to buy the Tesla Powerwalls I'd need to have enough juice to get through a three day power outage. And they'll wear out in ten years. And solar production is no good on a snowy winter day. More reliable electric grids and resilient microgrids are great ideas, but the US lacks the political will to make that happen.
posted by Nelson at 11:02 AM on December 27, 2021 [3 favorites]
The conversion to all-electric will require more juice but it isn’t as dramatic as the naysayers make it seem.
I'm keeping an eye on all of this because I presume we'll eventually need to redo our kitchen for one reason or another. A couple years ago we had surprise expenses for a partial heavy-up, because it turned out the people who flipped the house didn't do actually meet code when they installed a new panel and our inspector didn't catch the problem. Thankfully we didn't have to replace everything, so it only cost about half what a full heavy-up usually costs in our area. All of that was just to get things to the point the electric utility would fix the actual problem with how the supply line was terminated on our drop so our lights didn't flicker when there was wind or rain (and sometimes even without wind or rain).
Anyway. At this point we know we have an adequate power supply to the house for an upgrade to all-electric cooking, but what we don't have is adequate wiring from the panel to the kitchen. The original wiring from 1924 is all fabric-wrapped and maxes out at 15A, plus the countertop outlets are on the same circuit as the fridge. There's a dedicated circuit for a range, but I think it's also limited in safe current draw because of the condition of the wiring (something something balanced something shared neutral something). We'd have to tear up ceilings in two or three rooms in the basement and two walls in the kitchen just to run the cable that could actually handle the increased current draw. Until we can afford to rip everything up I have to be careful about where I plug in countertop appliances, which is fun.
We also have a gas-powered, tankless, on-demand water heater and a gas furnace. Even though I understand that heat pumps are supposed to be extremely efficient now and gas is an environmental problem, I've never had good experiences with heat pumps and our winter gas bill is much lower than our summer electric bill. I know I'm going to miss both of them when their time comes, even though replacing them will be the right thing to do.
posted by fedward at 11:12 AM on December 27, 2021
I'm keeping an eye on all of this because I presume we'll eventually need to redo our kitchen for one reason or another. A couple years ago we had surprise expenses for a partial heavy-up, because it turned out the people who flipped the house didn't do actually meet code when they installed a new panel and our inspector didn't catch the problem. Thankfully we didn't have to replace everything, so it only cost about half what a full heavy-up usually costs in our area. All of that was just to get things to the point the electric utility would fix the actual problem with how the supply line was terminated on our drop so our lights didn't flicker when there was wind or rain (and sometimes even without wind or rain).
Anyway. At this point we know we have an adequate power supply to the house for an upgrade to all-electric cooking, but what we don't have is adequate wiring from the panel to the kitchen. The original wiring from 1924 is all fabric-wrapped and maxes out at 15A, plus the countertop outlets are on the same circuit as the fridge. There's a dedicated circuit for a range, but I think it's also limited in safe current draw because of the condition of the wiring (something something balanced something shared neutral something). We'd have to tear up ceilings in two or three rooms in the basement and two walls in the kitchen just to run the cable that could actually handle the increased current draw. Until we can afford to rip everything up I have to be careful about where I plug in countertop appliances, which is fun.
We also have a gas-powered, tankless, on-demand water heater and a gas furnace. Even though I understand that heat pumps are supposed to be extremely efficient now and gas is an environmental problem, I've never had good experiences with heat pumps and our winter gas bill is much lower than our summer electric bill. I know I'm going to miss both of them when their time comes, even though replacing them will be the right thing to do.
posted by fedward at 11:12 AM on December 27, 2021
My house is all-electric and we have a lot of solar panels. Our annual electricity bill is zero.
How many panels do you have? We have some, but it doesn't seem to reduce the electric bill as much as I'd hoped.
posted by chaz at 3:31 PM on December 27, 2021
How many panels do you have? We have some, but it doesn't seem to reduce the electric bill as much as I'd hoped.
posted by chaz at 3:31 PM on December 27, 2021
I just learned that restaurant induction wok burners exist, run off 240v, and list for about $2000.
Oh no! Now I have to research this :) I trust commercial equipment to work but often it’s not practical to install in a house, like restaurant combi ovens who assume you have killer exhausts to get rid of humidity, and all the households brands for those ovens are Miele/Wolfe/Thermador which are cool and look amazing but stupid expensive, and if it cost the same as a commercial one but has amazing finish I guess the money went into the finish not the oven.
I wish I could start my own brand of appliances centered around maintainability/relookability/upgradability and actual real innovation in helping you cook, but I’d for sure go bankrupt before getting a product out since I know nothing about how to produce real things.
I was Jeff Bezos, I wouldn’t have a rocket but I would have the coolest kitchen in the world (oriented towards cooking not instagramming).
posted by WaterAndPixels at 4:39 PM on December 27, 2021 [1 favorite]
Oh no! Now I have to research this :) I trust commercial equipment to work but often it’s not practical to install in a house, like restaurant combi ovens who assume you have killer exhausts to get rid of humidity, and all the households brands for those ovens are Miele/Wolfe/Thermador which are cool and look amazing but stupid expensive, and if it cost the same as a commercial one but has amazing finish I guess the money went into the finish not the oven.
I wish I could start my own brand of appliances centered around maintainability/relookability/upgradability and actual real innovation in helping you cook, but I’d for sure go bankrupt before getting a product out since I know nothing about how to produce real things.
I was Jeff Bezos, I wouldn’t have a rocket but I would have the coolest kitchen in the world (oriented towards cooking not instagramming).
posted by WaterAndPixels at 4:39 PM on December 27, 2021 [1 favorite]
One nice thing about a wood burning fireplace or a gas stove is it's pretty resilient. Different fuel supply, either outside your front door or else coming from a pipe buried in the ground.
Gas is resilient... until it isn't. The gas production plant in Victoria was damaged in an accident, resulting in the total loss of gas supply to the entire state for 20 days. Many of my friends recounted those 20 days (just coming out of winter) as being particularly miserable, as most did not have access to hot showers during that time, and of course, most houses could not be adequately heated and people had to resort to buying portable electric cooktops to cook with during that time (if any could even be found in stores). In contrast, the electrical grid is much more decentralized and spread out, and power can usually be restored within hours or days in the event of a power plant explosion or weather event that takes down pylons.
Anyway... this cooking thing is somewhat of a derail. You'll decarbonize by switching away from gas so you move away from gas heating, but the most direct consequence of that is your cooktop even though it only accounts for a small proportion of your emissions. I think for me the biggest draw for building a new house without a gas line is to avoid paying the $1 per day supply charge for gas, and the fact that if you look at the next 20-30 years, electricity is only going to get cheaper (look at trends in solar panels) and gas is only going to get more expensive (look at trends where easy to tap gas fields are running out plus the spectre of impending carbon taxes).
posted by xdvesper at 7:14 PM on December 27, 2021 [3 favorites]
Gas is resilient... until it isn't. The gas production plant in Victoria was damaged in an accident, resulting in the total loss of gas supply to the entire state for 20 days. Many of my friends recounted those 20 days (just coming out of winter) as being particularly miserable, as most did not have access to hot showers during that time, and of course, most houses could not be adequately heated and people had to resort to buying portable electric cooktops to cook with during that time (if any could even be found in stores). In contrast, the electrical grid is much more decentralized and spread out, and power can usually be restored within hours or days in the event of a power plant explosion or weather event that takes down pylons.
Anyway... this cooking thing is somewhat of a derail. You'll decarbonize by switching away from gas so you move away from gas heating, but the most direct consequence of that is your cooktop even though it only accounts for a small proportion of your emissions. I think for me the biggest draw for building a new house without a gas line is to avoid paying the $1 per day supply charge for gas, and the fact that if you look at the next 20-30 years, electricity is only going to get cheaper (look at trends in solar panels) and gas is only going to get more expensive (look at trends where easy to tap gas fields are running out plus the spectre of impending carbon taxes).
posted by xdvesper at 7:14 PM on December 27, 2021 [3 favorites]
It'd cost me at least $60,000 just to buy the Tesla Powerwalls I'd need to have enough juice to get through a three day power outage.
Yeah, Powerwalls don't make a huge amount of sense given the availability of battery banks with wheels and drivetrains and passenger space attached that cost less per kWh even with all those extras.
The other thing to bear in mind when thinking about the economics of these things is the rate at which prices for solar PV and electric vehicles continues to fall. By the time the energy supply infrastructure is fully electric, the economics of solar PV and batteries is more likely to be compelling than limiting. Mass production to the point of commoditization really is an astonishing thing.
Home battery storage also makes a lot more sense for homes that are able to access the spot wholesale price for electricity rather than being stuck with some kind of averaged-plus-margin retail rate.
posted by flabdablet at 8:45 PM on December 27, 2021 [1 favorite]
Yeah, Powerwalls don't make a huge amount of sense given the availability of battery banks with wheels and drivetrains and passenger space attached that cost less per kWh even with all those extras.
The other thing to bear in mind when thinking about the economics of these things is the rate at which prices for solar PV and electric vehicles continues to fall. By the time the energy supply infrastructure is fully electric, the economics of solar PV and batteries is more likely to be compelling than limiting. Mass production to the point of commoditization really is an astonishing thing.
Home battery storage also makes a lot more sense for homes that are able to access the spot wholesale price for electricity rather than being stuck with some kind of averaged-plus-margin retail rate.
posted by flabdablet at 8:45 PM on December 27, 2021 [1 favorite]
How many panels do you have? We have some, but it doesn't seem to reduce the electric bill as much as I'd hoped.
22.8kW of panels, 20kW inverter. It’s a relatively large system by Australian residential standards but it made sense for my situation.
posted by the duck by the oboe at 9:32 PM on December 27, 2021
22.8kW of panels, 20kW inverter. It’s a relatively large system by Australian residential standards but it made sense for my situation.
posted by the duck by the oboe at 9:32 PM on December 27, 2021
I wish car battery electricity backup for a house worked right now! There's no available commercial solution right now though, right? I've read about some experiments with Prius conversions. And a lot of hype about what the Ford F150 might be able to do. But none of it is something I could use right now. I do love the idea though; it turns that giant expensive battery for your house into something that also has double utility as transportation. And encourages switching away from gas fuelled cars. Win win win!
For some numbers; a Tesla Powerwall has a 13.5kWh battery. A Tesla Model S battery stores 100kWh and a F150 battery is estimated to be about 120kWh. So these big cars are like 8 Powerwalls, or $84,000 worth. (The economics of this are puzzling, as many articles have pointed out. The Powerwall is probably overpriced.)
My house uses 45kWh a day, probably 20kWh if I shut off all the big less crucial loads like the pool filter. So a car in my garage could cover 2-5 days of my power needs.
Circling back to the original article; this only works if you have a car in your garage. That's not particularly relevant to a lot of New York City. I'm hoping NYC's plan comes with it a major emphasis on grid reliability expectations from its utilities.
posted by Nelson at 6:58 AM on December 28, 2021
For some numbers; a Tesla Powerwall has a 13.5kWh battery. A Tesla Model S battery stores 100kWh and a F150 battery is estimated to be about 120kWh. So these big cars are like 8 Powerwalls, or $84,000 worth. (The economics of this are puzzling, as many articles have pointed out. The Powerwall is probably overpriced.)
My house uses 45kWh a day, probably 20kWh if I shut off all the big less crucial loads like the pool filter. So a car in my garage could cover 2-5 days of my power needs.
Circling back to the original article; this only works if you have a car in your garage. That's not particularly relevant to a lot of New York City. I'm hoping NYC's plan comes with it a major emphasis on grid reliability expectations from its utilities.
posted by Nelson at 6:58 AM on December 28, 2021
induction wok burners exist, run off 240v
There are some cheaper options starting at a few hundred dollars. Note they will require a 208/240v outlet.
The big feature difference seems to be true variable output vs cyclic output with cycle durations of several seconds. Apparently pretty noticable at low levels. Though I wonder if a heavier cast iron wok rather than carbon steel would smooth that out.
posted by Mitheral at 1:54 PM on December 28, 2021
There are some cheaper options starting at a few hundred dollars. Note they will require a 208/240v outlet.
The big feature difference seems to be true variable output vs cyclic output with cycle durations of several seconds. Apparently pretty noticable at low levels. Though I wonder if a heavier cast iron wok rather than carbon steel would smooth that out.
posted by Mitheral at 1:54 PM on December 28, 2021
Like Nelson, my worry is backup for loss of grid. We will be downsizing soon and I am eager to de-carbonize as much as possible in the new location. But there are frequent outages up there in the stormy season. The all-electric solutions to keep heat, cooking and hot water going look so expensive compared to a full propane tank and/or a genset, or wood stove. Add to that the complexity and maintenance that come with systems like the amazingly efficient geothermal heat pumps, and a battery management system.
I like the idea of a two plate induction cooktop with an outdoor propane wok burner.
posted by Mei's lost sandal at 2:18 PM on December 28, 2021
I like the idea of a two plate induction cooktop with an outdoor propane wok burner.
posted by Mei's lost sandal at 2:18 PM on December 28, 2021
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Those who’ll complain of the increased costs due to electricity … you’d pay those anyway after ConEd has to shell out zillions after gas explosions. One way or another, those costs get passed on to the consumer.
posted by armoir from antproof case at 11:39 PM on December 25, 2021 [7 favorites]