"Garbage gets picked up"
January 3, 2022 11:25 AM Subscribe
Ashton Applewhite (previously) is a blogger and anti-ageism activist. She was also, in the 1980s, the first person to have four books on the NYT bestseller list at the same time. But it wasn't under her own name; instead, the books were by Blanche Knott, author of the Truly Tasteless Jokes book series.
On the Decoder Ring podcast of December 7 (link with transcript available), Willa Paskin examines the politics of "filthy speech" from the '60s to the '80s and speaks to Applewhite, who undergoes a slow epiphany about the cost of her work.
(cw: racist, sexist, anti-Semitic, homophobic language)
Note that the transcript is auto-generated and features a number of spelling errors. For example, the punchline of the second joke should be "nobody eats parsley."
Harper's subscribers can see her article "Being Blanche" here.
On the Decoder Ring podcast of December 7 (link with transcript available), Willa Paskin examines the politics of "filthy speech" from the '60s to the '80s and speaks to Applewhite, who undergoes a slow epiphany about the cost of her work.
(cw: racist, sexist, anti-Semitic, homophobic language)
Note that the transcript is auto-generated and features a number of spelling errors. For example, the punchline of the second joke should be "nobody eats parsley."
Harper's subscribers can see her article "Being Blanche" here.
Thank you for sharing the transcript, flaws and all. Much appreciated.
posted by doctornemo at 1:20 PM on January 3, 2022
posted by doctornemo at 1:20 PM on January 3, 2022
I have to say the podcast makes me ambivalent.
On the one hand it's interesting to see all of that history. I knew parts of it, and read into some of the books back then, on my own and when they appeared in the bookshop I worked in. (Also, in full disclosure: I'm friends with someone very close to Applewhite, and she and I have had some light exchanges on Facebook. I like her work on This Chair Rocks.) I didn't know that she made a ton of money on Tasteless Jokes.
It is also interesting to see those books in the light of today's progressive politics. Well, mostly antiracist politics, although there's one key exchange about sexism.
On the other hand... there's something unsettling about the podcast pressing Applewhite again and again, not just to unfold more of the backstory, but to make her apologize and express guilt. We don't know the episode's production history, but the text itself is clear about returning to the author several times, pressing and pressing. There's a hint of a Cultural Revolution vibe here which I don't want to see resurrected in the world.
(And I wrote that last paragraph with nervousness here, on the blue. It wouldn't be surprising if comments charged me with recycling right wing talking points or abetting harm.)
posted by doctornemo at 1:29 PM on January 3, 2022 [14 favorites]
On the one hand it's interesting to see all of that history. I knew parts of it, and read into some of the books back then, on my own and when they appeared in the bookshop I worked in. (Also, in full disclosure: I'm friends with someone very close to Applewhite, and she and I have had some light exchanges on Facebook. I like her work on This Chair Rocks.) I didn't know that she made a ton of money on Tasteless Jokes.
It is also interesting to see those books in the light of today's progressive politics. Well, mostly antiracist politics, although there's one key exchange about sexism.
On the other hand... there's something unsettling about the podcast pressing Applewhite again and again, not just to unfold more of the backstory, but to make her apologize and express guilt. We don't know the episode's production history, but the text itself is clear about returning to the author several times, pressing and pressing. There's a hint of a Cultural Revolution vibe here which I don't want to see resurrected in the world.
(And I wrote that last paragraph with nervousness here, on the blue. It wouldn't be surprising if comments charged me with recycling right wing talking points or abetting harm.)
posted by doctornemo at 1:29 PM on January 3, 2022 [14 favorites]
I think it's critical that Mel Brooks is Jewish. If The Producers had been written and directed by somebody else, the transgressive humor certainly would have hit differently. Does Blazing Saddles still hold up? Opinions are a lot more varied on that one, because is Mel Brooks allowed to play with the N-word like that still?
There's a long-standing debate on this site whether Cards Against Humanity is funny or awful. I've seen comments from people who say something like, the group I play with is all mixed-race and queer people, and we love it. Fine if it works for them, I guess, but especially when it's mostly white dudes it's a recipe for hate speech. I don't see how that sort of "humor" is helping.
posted by rikschell at 1:31 PM on January 3, 2022 [12 favorites]
There's a long-standing debate on this site whether Cards Against Humanity is funny or awful. I've seen comments from people who say something like, the group I play with is all mixed-race and queer people, and we love it. Fine if it works for them, I guess, but especially when it's mostly white dudes it's a recipe for hate speech. I don't see how that sort of "humor" is helping.
posted by rikschell at 1:31 PM on January 3, 2022 [12 favorites]
There's a 2019 documentary (trailer) about the books.
And, although Wikipedia says the standup comedy special is [citation needed], I'm guessing the writer is thinking of this straight-to-VHS number.
posted by box at 1:57 PM on January 3, 2022
And, although Wikipedia says the standup comedy special is [citation needed], I'm guessing the writer is thinking of this straight-to-VHS number.
posted by box at 1:57 PM on January 3, 2022
More than the jokes themselves, the key "innovation" of the books as I remember them was being thin enough to be easily concealed in one's Trapper Keeper.
There was an edition that came out at the end of '86 and I remember 4th Grade me being totally shocked by the Challenger jokes. TOO SOON.
posted by Esteemed Offendi at 2:12 PM on January 3, 2022 [6 favorites]
There was an edition that came out at the end of '86 and I remember 4th Grade me being totally shocked by the Challenger jokes. TOO SOON.
posted by Esteemed Offendi at 2:12 PM on January 3, 2022 [6 favorites]
This is fascinating.
In 2022, it seems to me that there are two different kinds of tasteless jokes: dead babies, and lazy Mexicans. Everyone was a baby. Cheers to dead babies. (With appropriate use of glowsticks, you can make a charming chandelier.) Girls from New Jersey can fend for themselves. As someone who won a Christa McAuliffe scholarship, I'm up for any humor involving exploding astronauts. But, a lot of the people buying English language tasteless joke books probably don't know many people from Mexico, or Black Texans. They're not laughing with them. They're laughing at them.
I don't quite know how to differentiate between tasteless and mean. But, there is a real difference. And it would be a shame to get rid of everything tasteless in order to avoid the mean bits. On occasion the tasteless bits can be quite useful. (That the discussion the Berkeley Free Speech Movement doesn't mention the overwhelming use of physical violence by the state is notable.)
posted by eotvos at 2:41 PM on January 3, 2022 [4 favorites]
In 2022, it seems to me that there are two different kinds of tasteless jokes: dead babies, and lazy Mexicans. Everyone was a baby. Cheers to dead babies. (With appropriate use of glowsticks, you can make a charming chandelier.) Girls from New Jersey can fend for themselves. As someone who won a Christa McAuliffe scholarship, I'm up for any humor involving exploding astronauts. But, a lot of the people buying English language tasteless joke books probably don't know many people from Mexico, or Black Texans. They're not laughing with them. They're laughing at them.
I don't quite know how to differentiate between tasteless and mean. But, there is a real difference. And it would be a shame to get rid of everything tasteless in order to avoid the mean bits. On occasion the tasteless bits can be quite useful. (That the discussion the Berkeley Free Speech Movement doesn't mention the overwhelming use of physical violence by the state is notable.)
posted by eotvos at 2:41 PM on January 3, 2022 [4 favorites]
Esteemed Offendi : There was an edition that came out at the end of '86 and I remember 4th Grade me being totally shocked by the Challenger jokes. TOO SOON.
I will defend to the grave NASA’s acronym reimagined as “Need Another Seven Astronauts” in that book as both a clever wordplay and slam on the admins who let it happen.
posted by dr_dank at 3:26 PM on January 3, 2022 [17 favorites]
I will defend to the grave NASA’s acronym reimagined as “Need Another Seven Astronauts” in that book as both a clever wordplay and slam on the admins who let it happen.
posted by dr_dank at 3:26 PM on January 3, 2022 [17 favorites]
But, a lot of the people buying English language tasteless joke books probably don't know many people from Mexico, or Black Texans. They're not laughing with them. They're laughing at them.
There's a long-standing debate on this site whether Cards Against Humanity is funny or awful. I've seen comments from people who say something like, the group I play with is all mixed-race and queer people, and we love it.
I’m white and my longtime/hometown friends are pretty much all white (Jewish) or Asian. My late partner was also white, but pretty much the only white person in her friend group, which is extremely diverse. Do I need to say that it wasn’t my friend group that threw ethnic jokes around a lot? I don’t expect that this is some earth-shattering revelation to most people, but plainly this kind of thing does serve an in-group bonding function, and is very much context-dependent. I wouldn’t say the vibe I get from the transcript is “cultural revolution” but it is a bit “white liberals gazing at their navels.” If we’re going to acknowledge the historical contingency of all this:
But if she’s been on a journey, she’s made that journey in lockstep with mainstream white, liberal politics from the civil libertarian free speech genus of the joke book to the emancipatory feminism of the divorced book to a social justice inflected perspective on the experience of aging.
to then turn around and insist that the guest still ought to properly reckon with the implications of… having compiled these jokes, which we can also acknowledge she didn’t actually originate, does rub me the wrong way a little. Like we can’t just examine the history of such joke books and discuss what that says about the times and mores. We must have Podcast Conclusion Catharsis!
posted by atoxyl at 4:28 PM on January 3, 2022 [8 favorites]
There's a long-standing debate on this site whether Cards Against Humanity is funny or awful. I've seen comments from people who say something like, the group I play with is all mixed-race and queer people, and we love it.
I’m white and my longtime/hometown friends are pretty much all white (Jewish) or Asian. My late partner was also white, but pretty much the only white person in her friend group, which is extremely diverse. Do I need to say that it wasn’t my friend group that threw ethnic jokes around a lot? I don’t expect that this is some earth-shattering revelation to most people, but plainly this kind of thing does serve an in-group bonding function, and is very much context-dependent. I wouldn’t say the vibe I get from the transcript is “cultural revolution” but it is a bit “white liberals gazing at their navels.” If we’re going to acknowledge the historical contingency of all this:
But if she’s been on a journey, she’s made that journey in lockstep with mainstream white, liberal politics from the civil libertarian free speech genus of the joke book to the emancipatory feminism of the divorced book to a social justice inflected perspective on the experience of aging.
to then turn around and insist that the guest still ought to properly reckon with the implications of… having compiled these jokes, which we can also acknowledge she didn’t actually originate, does rub me the wrong way a little. Like we can’t just examine the history of such joke books and discuss what that says about the times and mores. We must have Podcast Conclusion Catharsis!
posted by atoxyl at 4:28 PM on January 3, 2022 [8 favorites]
Why the hell is a 10-year-old article behind a $24 paywall? I'd sure like to read "Being Blanche". I knew the books well when I was young, dumb, and in high school. I thought they were hilarious at the time. All these decades later, "Cards Against Humanity" puts me in a sad funk. It hits me as the same content, different medium.
What does she have to say about them? Is she now a better human being? Does she regret writing the books? Or is she instead proud of the dispersion (among the glaringly white and ignorant Dictionary of Cultural Literacy crowd into which I was born) of all those hateful jokes? I'm curious. But not enough to pay for it.
On preview: I see I'm not alone having an issue with Cards Against Humanity.
edit just to say: I don't like podcasts, even in transcript form. We all have our things.
posted by phrits at 7:01 PM on January 3, 2022
What does she have to say about them? Is she now a better human being? Does she regret writing the books? Or is she instead proud of the dispersion (among the glaringly white and ignorant Dictionary of Cultural Literacy crowd into which I was born) of all those hateful jokes? I'm curious. But not enough to pay for it.
On preview: I see I'm not alone having an issue with Cards Against Humanity.
edit just to say: I don't like podcasts, even in transcript form. We all have our things.
posted by phrits at 7:01 PM on January 3, 2022
I'm reminded of Chris Morris' series Jam (on the radio) and Blue Jam (on the television), which were deliberately designed to disorient and upset people. Blue Jam in particular is formally a comedy sketch show, and a lot of the sketches are very funny, some are just offensive (and not even funny), some are genuinely disturbing - for example, although I get the joke of Plumber Baby, I find the actual sketch (brilliantly written and performed though it is) fairly upsetting.
Anyway, if there's anything more extreme than [Blue] Jam in mainstream culture, I'd be curious to know about its existence, though I don't know whether I'd want to watch it. It seems like the cultural artefact least appropriate for the sensibilities abroad in 2022, although 2022 feels a lot like it.
posted by Grangousier at 3:29 AM on January 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
Anyway, if there's anything more extreme than [Blue] Jam in mainstream culture, I'd be curious to know about its existence, though I don't know whether I'd want to watch it. It seems like the cultural artefact least appropriate for the sensibilities abroad in 2022, although 2022 feels a lot like it.
posted by Grangousier at 3:29 AM on January 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
A fascinating look at the dark side of Waldenbooks offerings that, as the podcast points out, might have seemed to us pre-teens like sophisticated adult material but made its way into middle school lunch groups like ours in our white-flight suburb. I agree about the navel gazing. The podcast made me long for a follow-up that opens up the story, looks at how books like this affected Gen X kids' world views, and charts more of the the racist Reagan-era backlash humor that I only dimly understand from our '80s childhoods and the existence of National Lampoon. I dread to think how cool we would have thought this book's dehumanizing jokes about Black people were in '86.
posted by johngoren at 4:37 AM on January 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by johngoren at 4:37 AM on January 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
@Grangousier Wrong way around - Blue Jam was radio, Jam television.
posted by GallonOfAlan at 5:03 AM on January 4, 2022
posted by GallonOfAlan at 5:03 AM on January 4, 2022
Thanks for posting this! Really appreciated the context about the history of transgressive jokes.
I was actually glad the podcast host came back to talk to Applewhite again. There was something unsettling about Applewhite's initial responses. She jokingly described her book as intersectional because it made fun of everyone--but it was specifically the anti-Black jokes that maintained a lifespan on hate boards, and I think you'd find that pretty predictable if you understood the power of the jokes in that book. The jokes aren't just describing a "messy," "complicated" world, and they aren't just transgressive free speech. They are also tools to hurt people, and some of the people who understood that used them as such.
I'm genuinely happy Applewhite could use the book's success to leave an unhappy marriage and pay for her children's' education. And it's really great that she's speaking up for folks affected by ageism. That really stuck with me. I kept thinking about that great work she is doing, and I thought about how millions of Black and brown people don't get to be old, because racism isn't messy or complicated. It's just brutal. Effective advocacy for the aging means coming to terms with that.
Her book obviously didn't make that brutal world but it did profit from it. And I think the follow-up conversations helped her see that. Her new reflections can make her an even better advocate for aging people, and that benefits all of us.
posted by Avarith at 5:26 AM on January 4, 2022 [4 favorites]
I was actually glad the podcast host came back to talk to Applewhite again. There was something unsettling about Applewhite's initial responses. She jokingly described her book as intersectional because it made fun of everyone--but it was specifically the anti-Black jokes that maintained a lifespan on hate boards, and I think you'd find that pretty predictable if you understood the power of the jokes in that book. The jokes aren't just describing a "messy," "complicated" world, and they aren't just transgressive free speech. They are also tools to hurt people, and some of the people who understood that used them as such.
I'm genuinely happy Applewhite could use the book's success to leave an unhappy marriage and pay for her children's' education. And it's really great that she's speaking up for folks affected by ageism. That really stuck with me. I kept thinking about that great work she is doing, and I thought about how millions of Black and brown people don't get to be old, because racism isn't messy or complicated. It's just brutal. Effective advocacy for the aging means coming to terms with that.
Her book obviously didn't make that brutal world but it did profit from it. And I think the follow-up conversations helped her see that. Her new reflections can make her an even better advocate for aging people, and that benefits all of us.
posted by Avarith at 5:26 AM on January 4, 2022 [4 favorites]
GallonOfAlan - D'oh! You're right. I'll stand by the rest of it, even if I'm demonstrably wrong.
posted by Grangousier at 6:01 AM on January 4, 2022
posted by Grangousier at 6:01 AM on January 4, 2022
I will defend to the grave NASA’s acronym reimagined as “Need Another Seven Astronauts” in that book as both a clever wordplay and slam on the admins who let it happen.
I first heard that joke within two days of the accident, from someone at school. I don't know where it originated, but it spread really fast long before it made it into a book. I can remember sharing the books back and forth with friends and us laughing at some of the jokes and being confused by others. For us, these mostly weren't jokes and slurs that we heard in our regular lives, so it was eye opening, but also easy to accept as normalizing that kind of talking.
There's a long-standing debate on this site whether Cards Against Humanity is funny or awful. I've seen comments from people who say something like, the group I play with is all mixed-race and queer people, and we love it. Fine if it works for them, I guess, but especially when it's mostly white dudes it's a recipe for hate speech. I don't see how that sort of "humor" is helping.
I've only played that game once, and that was basically my experience. I found it really awkward and uncomfortable.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:24 AM on January 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
I first heard that joke within two days of the accident, from someone at school. I don't know where it originated, but it spread really fast long before it made it into a book. I can remember sharing the books back and forth with friends and us laughing at some of the jokes and being confused by others. For us, these mostly weren't jokes and slurs that we heard in our regular lives, so it was eye opening, but also easy to accept as normalizing that kind of talking.
There's a long-standing debate on this site whether Cards Against Humanity is funny or awful. I've seen comments from people who say something like, the group I play with is all mixed-race and queer people, and we love it. Fine if it works for them, I guess, but especially when it's mostly white dudes it's a recipe for hate speech. I don't see how that sort of "humor" is helping.
I've only played that game once, and that was basically my experience. I found it really awkward and uncomfortable.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:24 AM on January 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
I'm reminded of Chris Morris' series Jam (on the radio) and Blue Jam (on the television), which were deliberately designed to disorient and upset peopleMorris is a great example of tasteless done well. (I'd have left out a few of the bits making fun of trans people, but even that mostly reads as laughing with folks and making fun of critics, at least to a cis het guy.)
posted by eotvos at 7:19 AM on January 4, 2022
This podcast episode really struck me because it made me realize that one of those books was a big influence in my life when I was, what, nine? Ten? I'm not sure. Of course I didn't know it at the time, and didn't think seriously about it later. But the jokes were some of my first lessons in how people navigated human sexuality.
I had seen dirty comics before (another story) but I at least knew those were made up. People definitely told these jokes -- I knew because I had heard some of the less awful ones. For me, it was an introduction to what men wanted, what women wanted, and what they would do to each other to get it. I couldn't talk to a grownup about it, because I wasn't supposed to have it. Plus, one of those grownups was gonna want the book back, and I was guilty enough about kyping it. So I ... buried it. Look, I was a weird kid. If I had lived near the woods, I guess I would have put it there with the proverbial porn.
The existence of those jokes guided me later in my interactions with boys and then men. I assumed the worst, which I guess was protective, but also kept me from experiences that might not have been degrading or humiliating at all, which was what I assumed sex "really" was, or else why would people joke about it?
None of this, of course, is Applewhite's fault. It's just one of those things that happen when a kid is sneaky and a good climber and finds stuff out. It's not her fault, any more than the guy who invented Tide pods. But it made me think, if it hurt me as a standard-issue white woman, how much more could it have hurt minoritized people?
posted by Countess Elena at 7:20 AM on January 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
I had seen dirty comics before (another story) but I at least knew those were made up. People definitely told these jokes -- I knew because I had heard some of the less awful ones. For me, it was an introduction to what men wanted, what women wanted, and what they would do to each other to get it. I couldn't talk to a grownup about it, because I wasn't supposed to have it. Plus, one of those grownups was gonna want the book back, and I was guilty enough about kyping it. So I ... buried it. Look, I was a weird kid. If I had lived near the woods, I guess I would have put it there with the proverbial porn.
The existence of those jokes guided me later in my interactions with boys and then men. I assumed the worst, which I guess was protective, but also kept me from experiences that might not have been degrading or humiliating at all, which was what I assumed sex "really" was, or else why would people joke about it?
None of this, of course, is Applewhite's fault. It's just one of those things that happen when a kid is sneaky and a good climber and finds stuff out. It's not her fault, any more than the guy who invented Tide pods. But it made me think, if it hurt me as a standard-issue white woman, how much more could it have hurt minoritized people?
posted by Countess Elena at 7:20 AM on January 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
There's a long-standing debate on this site whether Cards Against Humanity is funny or awful.I've been surprised and learned a lot from comments here. Among people of good will who know each other, it's genuinely fun. I absolutely believe that my encounters with it (mostly among physics postdocs - but, the least obnoxious ones) are unusual. I'm torn between recognizing that some jokes aren't jokes and wanting to assume good will and embracing shock as a useful tool. I shouldn't be surprised that it hurts people, but it does make me a bit sad that it does. I'm on board to give it up if it does more harm then good, which seems likely.
(I also toasted "genocide" on the first date with my spouse, who lost family at Auschwitz, after having recently been to jail for anti-racist direct action. So, my perspective may be rather weird and obnoxious.)
posted by eotvos at 7:39 AM on January 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
One more point: the attitude behind the books and Applewhite's initial response really feels like 1970s-80s New York City to me. That "we offend everyone" kind of general fuck-you stance strongly echoed that era. At least to me, who lived there 1967-1980.
posted by doctornemo at 8:10 AM on January 4, 2022
posted by doctornemo at 8:10 AM on January 4, 2022
johngoren: “The podcast made me long for a follow-up that opens up the story, looks at how books like this affected Gen X kids' world views, and charts more of the the racist Reagan-era backlash humor that I only dimly understand from our '80s childhoods and the existence of National Lampoon.”I think this is exactly right. As someone who saw Free To Be You and Me in elementary school, I naively believed that America had gotten better and sexism and racism were on the decline. I was well into adulthood before I had my eyes opened.
posted by ob1quixote at 8:17 AM on January 4, 2022 [4 favorites]
I’m white and my longtime/hometown friends are pretty much all white (Jewish) or Asian. My late partner was also white, but pretty much the only white person in her friend group, which is extremely diverse. Do I need to say that it wasn’t my friend group that threw ethnic jokes around a lot? I don’t expect that this is some earth-shattering revelation to most people, but plainly this kind of thing does serve an in-group bonding function, and is very much context-dependent. I wouldn’t say the vibe I get from the transcript is “cultural revolution” but it is a bit “white liberals gazing at their navels.”
I'm really struck by a white person relying on his (at least somewhat vicarious) experience of his/their late partner's "diverse" friends group as a credential for casting judgment on the game, let alone other "white liberals". I don't think it's illuminating in the way it was meant to be.
posted by Salamandrous at 9:54 AM on January 9, 2022
I'm really struck by a white person relying on his (at least somewhat vicarious) experience of his/their late partner's "diverse" friends group as a credential for casting judgment on the game, let alone other "white liberals". I don't think it's illuminating in the way it was meant to be.
posted by Salamandrous at 9:54 AM on January 9, 2022
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I think of the Springtime for Hitler scene from The Producers, where the camera cuts from the musical within the film to the shocked expression of the audience. That cut is crucial, because Brooks is acknowledging that the "proper" response is one of horror. (Remember, the film came out in 1967, just a few decades after the Holocaust.) That gives us, the audience of the movie, permission to laugh. (Of course, it's also crucial that it's mocking the Nazis, not their victims.)
For an extended discussion of this topic (and some great jokes), I recommend The Aristocrats.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 12:23 PM on January 3, 2022 [10 favorites]