More cars are bad, less cars... are also bad for pedestrians
February 16, 2022 1:08 PM Subscribe
In 2020, rising pedestrian deaths were blamed on fewer cars on the road due to the pandemic. However, with car traffic nearly returning to pre-pandemic levels, pedestrian deaths continue to rise in the US, now blamed on reckless driving. Vox and Strong Towns offer alternative but more complicated explanations.
I really don't think the mix of the vehicles is all that important. Back in the olden days, the far vast majority of vehicles were cars, and they were doing the killing. Road design plus the increasing popularity of some walking in the US with seriously substandard infrastructure is driving the statistics, and the entire US transportation sector is way behind and really doesn't care.
Yeah, the sharp differential in fuel standards was a really dumb idea, and I can't believe it hasn't been fixed. But it's a distant variable in terms of deaths.
posted by The_Vegetables at 1:53 PM on February 16, 2022 [2 favorites]
Yeah, the sharp differential in fuel standards was a really dumb idea, and I can't believe it hasn't been fixed. But it's a distant variable in terms of deaths.
posted by The_Vegetables at 1:53 PM on February 16, 2022 [2 favorites]
20 years ago, auto makers sold small cars, big cars and trucks and the bigger the vehicle, the less fuel efficient they are.
Also you are thinking more like 30 years ago. Crossovers were already dominating 20 years ago, which was 2002.
posted by The_Vegetables at 1:55 PM on February 16, 2022 [2 favorites]
Also you are thinking more like 30 years ago. Crossovers were already dominating 20 years ago, which was 2002.
posted by The_Vegetables at 1:55 PM on February 16, 2022 [2 favorites]
I don't see why both explanations might not be true: there is both more opportunity to speed and drive recklessly because of changes in traffic patterns (per Strong Towns) and there are more jerks who drive recklessly for psychological (and I think also political) reasons. The combination would be deadly, of course.
But I also question the Strong Towns argument somewhat because I don't think the same thing is happening in other countries. While the US has uniquely bad road conditions for pedestrians among rich countries, Canada has somewhat similar road conditions to the US and Canadian data for 2020 shows a decline in pedestrian deaths (Canadian pedestrian deaths for 2020 are about 1/3 of US deaths per capita). Pedestrian deaths are also down in the UK for 2020.
The US definitely has a lot of urban design and vehicle type factors that make streets more dangerous for pedestrians, but I don't think those factors changed significantly from 2019 to 2020 or 2021, while pedestrian deaths went up significantly (and even more significantly relative to Canada and the UK). To me, that suggest psychological and maybe political factors are at play.
posted by ssg at 1:55 PM on February 16, 2022 [11 favorites]
But I also question the Strong Towns argument somewhat because I don't think the same thing is happening in other countries. While the US has uniquely bad road conditions for pedestrians among rich countries, Canada has somewhat similar road conditions to the US and Canadian data for 2020 shows a decline in pedestrian deaths (Canadian pedestrian deaths for 2020 are about 1/3 of US deaths per capita). Pedestrian deaths are also down in the UK for 2020.
The US definitely has a lot of urban design and vehicle type factors that make streets more dangerous for pedestrians, but I don't think those factors changed significantly from 2019 to 2020 or 2021, while pedestrian deaths went up significantly (and even more significantly relative to Canada and the UK). To me, that suggest psychological and maybe political factors are at play.
posted by ssg at 1:55 PM on February 16, 2022 [11 favorites]
I wonder which way the increase in true EV's will skew the data? they will no longer even have the noise of an engine to help warn pedestrians of their approach...
posted by OHenryPacey at 1:56 PM on February 16, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by OHenryPacey at 1:56 PM on February 16, 2022 [2 favorites]
EVs have a mandatory pedestrian warning sound. The bigger problem with EVs is that they are much heavier than other cars.
posted by 1970s Antihero at 2:02 PM on February 16, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by 1970s Antihero at 2:02 PM on February 16, 2022 [4 favorites]
I think this is just more of the old social contract falling apart. I've noticed a FAR greater number of cars that don't turn off their high-beam headlights, lately, on rural highways at night. They still (usually) respond to getting flashed at, but otherwise just putter about with them up.
posted by hwyengr at 2:10 PM on February 16, 2022 [40 favorites]
posted by hwyengr at 2:10 PM on February 16, 2022 [40 favorites]
I can get behind the more asshole driver theory a lot more than the design theory. Especially as both articles interview the same guy.
On my ride home from work last night some yahoo threw an empty PET bottle at me from thire car. They were going the other way and I had no hope of catching them so I just had to stare at them and continue on my way instead of doing the foolish thing that I wanted to (get them to come out of their car and try to beat the snot out of them). Today on my ride to work a car drove by really close. I was hoping I could catch them at a light but it changed before I had the chance to do the less foolish thing I wanted to do (bang on their hood and tell them to give more space when passing bikes). I'm usually a fairly chill person but I have no patience for drivers that might kill me while I'm on my bike.
I'll also say that distracted driving is only getting worse. So many cars with the drivers looking at their screens instead of the road and their surroundings.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 2:17 PM on February 16, 2022 [29 favorites]
On my ride home from work last night some yahoo threw an empty PET bottle at me from thire car. They were going the other way and I had no hope of catching them so I just had to stare at them and continue on my way instead of doing the foolish thing that I wanted to (get them to come out of their car and try to beat the snot out of them). Today on my ride to work a car drove by really close. I was hoping I could catch them at a light but it changed before I had the chance to do the less foolish thing I wanted to do (bang on their hood and tell them to give more space when passing bikes). I'm usually a fairly chill person but I have no patience for drivers that might kill me while I'm on my bike.
I'll also say that distracted driving is only getting worse. So many cars with the drivers looking at their screens instead of the road and their surroundings.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 2:17 PM on February 16, 2022 [29 favorites]
Looks like it's time to hand out more flyers to cyclists and pedestrians telling them to wear high viz and stay alert rather than impede anyone's ability to drive 60mph down residential streets or take any action to disincentivize driving in general.
posted by threementholsandafuneral at 2:25 PM on February 16, 2022 [75 favorites]
posted by threementholsandafuneral at 2:25 PM on February 16, 2022 [75 favorites]
The bigger problem with EVs is that they are much heavier than other cars.
I don't think weight of vehicles on it's own is a particularly important factor at least as far as EVs and pedestrian crashes (2 tonnes of car versus a human body or 2.5 tonnes of car versus a human body isn't much different). Heavier and larger vehicles in general tend to be more dangerous for pedestrians (and cyclists) because they have taller front grilles and it is more dangerous to be hit higher on the body, not simply because they are heavier — or at least that's what I understand.
There might be a small difference in stopping distance for a slightly heavier vehicle, but I don't think it is huge and that would only make a difference in a very small proportion of crashes (where the driver was trying to stop and the difference in stopping distance would actually matter).
posted by ssg at 2:44 PM on February 16, 2022 [2 favorites]
I don't think weight of vehicles on it's own is a particularly important factor at least as far as EVs and pedestrian crashes (2 tonnes of car versus a human body or 2.5 tonnes of car versus a human body isn't much different). Heavier and larger vehicles in general tend to be more dangerous for pedestrians (and cyclists) because they have taller front grilles and it is more dangerous to be hit higher on the body, not simply because they are heavier — or at least that's what I understand.
There might be a small difference in stopping distance for a slightly heavier vehicle, but I don't think it is huge and that would only make a difference in a very small proportion of crashes (where the driver was trying to stop and the difference in stopping distance would actually matter).
posted by ssg at 2:44 PM on February 16, 2022 [2 favorites]
One point of data is interesting. 1937, the highest pediatrician death year. Since then it has gone down with no uptick from the '37' stats
most likely cause: Getting serious about traffic laws: DOL History File, 1937
I don't hink vechile type is too relevant as there where trucks in the 30s.
Wider increase in drivers license mandate helped reduce fatalities which to me says alot about human behavior and accountability. The street design aspect in interesting, just avoided a man pushing his cart in the road as the sidewalks are horrid.
posted by clavdivs at 2:49 PM on February 16, 2022 [2 favorites]
most likely cause: Getting serious about traffic laws: DOL History File, 1937
I don't hink vechile type is too relevant as there where trucks in the 30s.
Wider increase in drivers license mandate helped reduce fatalities which to me says alot about human behavior and accountability. The street design aspect in interesting, just avoided a man pushing his cart in the road as the sidewalks are horrid.
posted by clavdivs at 2:49 PM on February 16, 2022 [2 favorites]
How about this:
Mandate all licensed drivers in the USA to take a mandatory drivers safety course every 5 years to renew their license and/or their insurance. This helps to remind every driver to come to a full stop at stop signs and stop lights. Remind drivers to slow the fuck down. Lower speed limits in populated areas. Take away peoples driving privileges when they kill a pedestrian/cyclist/driver. Stop calling them "accidents" and start calling them "Manslaughter" or "Murder"
posted by djseafood at 2:50 PM on February 16, 2022 [34 favorites]
Mandate all licensed drivers in the USA to take a mandatory drivers safety course every 5 years to renew their license and/or their insurance. This helps to remind every driver to come to a full stop at stop signs and stop lights. Remind drivers to slow the fuck down. Lower speed limits in populated areas. Take away peoples driving privileges when they kill a pedestrian/cyclist/driver. Stop calling them "accidents" and start calling them "Manslaughter" or "Murder"
posted by djseafood at 2:50 PM on February 16, 2022 [34 favorites]
There are many things going on, but the super-sizing of American vehicles plays a very noticeable role: "A 100 kg [220 lb] increase in average vehicle weight is related to a 2.4% increase in pedestrian fatalities for a metro [area]." Vehicles like the new Electric Ford-150 clock in at 6,600 lbs; and the electric Hummer has a battery that alone weighs 2,923 pounds - 600 lbs more than a Mazda MX-5...
Combine that with vehicles who are extremely tall, some pickup trucks are comically oversized to the point that half a kindergarten would be invisible if they were standing in front of the vehicle in a line...
In real-world collisions with pedestrians, a pickup’s tall front end and higher bumper are more likely than a lower vehicle’s to cause serious injuries, transferring energy directly to a victim’s hips and pelvis, says Becky Mueller, senior research engineer at the IIHS. Smaller pedestrians also have a higher risk of head injury because they’re more likely to have head-to-hood contact. And trucks are more likely to push a pedestrian down and run them over, she says. “And that, we know, is a more deadly scenario.”
CR testing has found that bigger vehicles in general have a harder time avoiding crashes. “Pickups and other large vehicles routinely do worse in our emergency handling and braking tests,” says Jake Fisher, CR’s senior director of auto testing. And when a truck and car collide, the car’s driver is 1.59 times more likely to die than in two-vehicle crashes without a pickup involved, according to the IIHS. By comparison, modern SUVs are no longer as deadly as trucks in crashes with cars. That’s because SUVs have become lighter and more carlike as a class over the past 20 years—just as trucks started adding weight, partly from popular features such as larger cabs.
Modern trucks that weigh less than 4,000 pounds pose the same danger as an SUV to the occupants of smaller vehicles. But a full-sized truck with four-wheel drive can top 5,000 pounds, and midsized trucks, such as the Gladiator and Ford Ranger, can exceed 4,500 pounds.
posted by rambling wanderlust at 2:54 PM on February 16, 2022 [21 favorites]
Combine that with vehicles who are extremely tall, some pickup trucks are comically oversized to the point that half a kindergarten would be invisible if they were standing in front of the vehicle in a line...
In real-world collisions with pedestrians, a pickup’s tall front end and higher bumper are more likely than a lower vehicle’s to cause serious injuries, transferring energy directly to a victim’s hips and pelvis, says Becky Mueller, senior research engineer at the IIHS. Smaller pedestrians also have a higher risk of head injury because they’re more likely to have head-to-hood contact. And trucks are more likely to push a pedestrian down and run them over, she says. “And that, we know, is a more deadly scenario.”
CR testing has found that bigger vehicles in general have a harder time avoiding crashes. “Pickups and other large vehicles routinely do worse in our emergency handling and braking tests,” says Jake Fisher, CR’s senior director of auto testing. And when a truck and car collide, the car’s driver is 1.59 times more likely to die than in two-vehicle crashes without a pickup involved, according to the IIHS. By comparison, modern SUVs are no longer as deadly as trucks in crashes with cars. That’s because SUVs have become lighter and more carlike as a class over the past 20 years—just as trucks started adding weight, partly from popular features such as larger cabs.
Modern trucks that weigh less than 4,000 pounds pose the same danger as an SUV to the occupants of smaller vehicles. But a full-sized truck with four-wheel drive can top 5,000 pounds, and midsized trucks, such as the Gladiator and Ford Ranger, can exceed 4,500 pounds.
posted by rambling wanderlust at 2:54 PM on February 16, 2022 [21 favorites]
How about this:
Mandate all licensed drivers in the USA to take a mandatory drivers safety course every 5 years to renew their license and/or their insurance.
I wish this was possible but I can't see it ever happening. Vehicle and insurance companies have so much money and there is no pedestrian lobby to counter them.
posted by everybody had matching towels at 3:29 PM on February 16, 2022 [3 favorites]
Mandate all licensed drivers in the USA to take a mandatory drivers safety course every 5 years to renew their license and/or their insurance.
I wish this was possible but I can't see it ever happening. Vehicle and insurance companies have so much money and there is no pedestrian lobby to counter them.
posted by everybody had matching towels at 3:29 PM on February 16, 2022 [3 favorites]
Why so many pedestrian deaths? Vehicles have grown to size of WWII tanks
Numerous studies and investigations have shown that SUVs and other light trucks are far deadlier for those outside the vehicle than sedans. This isn’t a novel finding: Almost 20 years ago, researchers showed that SUVs were more than twice as likely to kill pedestrians as a normal sedan.
For decades, American vehicles have been growing heavier and taller, but the trend has accelerated over the last decade. In 2016, Fiat Chrysler announced they would abandon the sedan market, while in 2020 Ford decided to no longer sell them in the U.S. either. SUVs and trucks have outsold normal passenger vehicles every year since 2018.
As Vice News recently showed, American cars are getting almost as big as World War II tanks.
Check this chart to see how trucks have taken over the US market over the past couple of decades: Production Share and Fuel Economy by Vehicle Type
I do think that driving patterns have changed much for the worse since the pandemic began. The number of people speeding and driving crazily boggles my mind... Every day when I was recently driving home to and from work, I'd get to watch people cut into turn lanes after the lane split off, or drivers cutting straight through to the next lane - current occupants be damned, or swerving through traffic like they are playing a video game. I've lost count of how many multi-vehicle pileups I've seen, or just missed. Thankfully now that Covid is retreating, I can go back to my train and bike commute.
As an owner of a Smart Car and a small folding bike, the increase in vehicle size really terrifies me no matter which form of transportation I take. The aggressive behavior from SUV and pickup truck drivers is really, really not helping either.
posted by rambling wanderlust at 3:29 PM on February 16, 2022 [16 favorites]
Numerous studies and investigations have shown that SUVs and other light trucks are far deadlier for those outside the vehicle than sedans. This isn’t a novel finding: Almost 20 years ago, researchers showed that SUVs were more than twice as likely to kill pedestrians as a normal sedan.
For decades, American vehicles have been growing heavier and taller, but the trend has accelerated over the last decade. In 2016, Fiat Chrysler announced they would abandon the sedan market, while in 2020 Ford decided to no longer sell them in the U.S. either. SUVs and trucks have outsold normal passenger vehicles every year since 2018.
As Vice News recently showed, American cars are getting almost as big as World War II tanks.
Check this chart to see how trucks have taken over the US market over the past couple of decades: Production Share and Fuel Economy by Vehicle Type
I do think that driving patterns have changed much for the worse since the pandemic began. The number of people speeding and driving crazily boggles my mind... Every day when I was recently driving home to and from work, I'd get to watch people cut into turn lanes after the lane split off, or drivers cutting straight through to the next lane - current occupants be damned, or swerving through traffic like they are playing a video game. I've lost count of how many multi-vehicle pileups I've seen, or just missed. Thankfully now that Covid is retreating, I can go back to my train and bike commute.
As an owner of a Smart Car and a small folding bike, the increase in vehicle size really terrifies me no matter which form of transportation I take. The aggressive behavior from SUV and pickup truck drivers is really, really not helping either.
posted by rambling wanderlust at 3:29 PM on February 16, 2022 [16 favorites]
I'm a substantially worse driver in the last year or so. I've had about four times when I had to stop at the last half second to avoid hitting the bumper in front of me. Usually I have so much space in front of me and a good enough reaction time that I only have a close call something like once a decade. Not sure if I was spoiled by the lack of traffic or if pandemic stress has eroded my attention or if all the bike commuting I've been doing is making my driving skills rusty.
That said, I agree with all the comments about oversized SUVs and trucks taking over being a big part of the problem. It also impacts sight lines when driving/cycling/walking. Especially where a big SUV is in a street parking space right by a driveway or corner.
posted by BrotherCaine at 3:50 PM on February 16, 2022 [9 favorites]
That said, I agree with all the comments about oversized SUVs and trucks taking over being a big part of the problem. It also impacts sight lines when driving/cycling/walking. Especially where a big SUV is in a street parking space right by a driveway or corner.
posted by BrotherCaine at 3:50 PM on February 16, 2022 [9 favorites]
The last time this came up, we guessed pandemic stress and distracted driving (staring at phone screens; general erosion in people's ability to pay attention) were the culprits.
Someone also brought up COVID side effects - not as a cause of stress, but the brain fog associated with long COVID.
posted by subdee at 4:13 PM on February 16, 2022 [11 favorites]
Someone also brought up COVID side effects - not as a cause of stress, but the brain fog associated with long COVID.
posted by subdee at 4:13 PM on February 16, 2022 [11 favorites]
I recently read on a local news site that the city where I live has pretty much eliminated ALL traffic police presence, which seems like a very foolish thing to do. I suspect there's some political point they're trying to make, i.e. the police force (with a deserved bad reputation already) pushing back against recent "defund the police"-type efforts. Which doesn't make it an any less foolish thing to do.
posted by Greg_Ace at 4:35 PM on February 16, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by Greg_Ace at 4:35 PM on February 16, 2022 [7 favorites]
I agree that street design will influence driving behaviours but that doesn't explain why we're seeing the spike in accidents now. Have cities been replacing a significant number of roads during the pandemic?
Also, fine cars are getting bigger so that'll turn an injury into a fatality but car sales have been depressed because it's been really hard to even get a car over the last 2 years.
These are general trends but I don't think they explain the pandemic increase in pedestrian deaths. For that I think the explanation is still that people have become more assholish, distracted, or both during the pandemic and that's reflected in how they drive.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 4:38 PM on February 16, 2022 [3 favorites]
Also, fine cars are getting bigger so that'll turn an injury into a fatality but car sales have been depressed because it's been really hard to even get a car over the last 2 years.
These are general trends but I don't think they explain the pandemic increase in pedestrian deaths. For that I think the explanation is still that people have become more assholish, distracted, or both during the pandemic and that's reflected in how they drive.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 4:38 PM on February 16, 2022 [3 favorites]
Vehicle and insurance companies have so much money and there is no pedestrian lobby to counter them.
posted
Do insurance companies really not have an interest in only insuring lower risk drivers?
posted by clew at 4:43 PM on February 16, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted
Do insurance companies really not have an interest in only insuring lower risk drivers?
posted by clew at 4:43 PM on February 16, 2022 [1 favorite]
I wonder if there's any information on the age range of both the drivers causing the crashes and the pedestrians they're killing. The boomers are at the age where both driving and walking is dangerous due to expected health changes, and we don't scrutinize driver's license renewals as much as we should. But in the absence of alternative transportation options (because US cities are a joke), they're going to fight strongly against any kind of driving restrictions which is a direct attack on their independence and freedom.
posted by meowzilla at 4:51 PM on February 16, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by meowzilla at 4:51 PM on February 16, 2022 [6 favorites]
This is actually an interesting data question. Did pedestrian deaths rise anywhere else in the world rise in 2020 from 2019? I checked Canada, UK, Australia, Mexico and EU overall and they are all down, most of them around 20%. There must be some factor that is specific to the US in play here.
posted by ssg at 4:52 PM on February 16, 2022 [20 favorites]
posted by ssg at 4:52 PM on February 16, 2022 [20 favorites]
Pedestrians being killed by cars is a sub-set of broader vehicle accident statistics and the US has alarmingly high numbers of fatal vehicle accidents - 12.4 per 100,000 inhabitants annually. Compare this with 4.6 in the UK and 4.4 in Australia. If you have a higher number of fatal accidents, you almost certainly have a higher number of pedestrian fatalities.
I guess it's possible that vehicle design and size could itself factor into such high fatality rates, but there's clearly something else at play here. Does the US have a higher rate of accidents overall, or do a higher proportion of accidents result in fatalities?
posted by dg at 4:58 PM on February 16, 2022 [1 favorite]
I guess it's possible that vehicle design and size could itself factor into such high fatality rates, but there's clearly something else at play here. Does the US have a higher rate of accidents overall, or do a higher proportion of accidents result in fatalities?
posted by dg at 4:58 PM on February 16, 2022 [1 favorite]
Yes, the US has extremely high pedestrian fatality rates (about three times Canada's and four times the UK's per capita rates for 2020) — that's well known. But why did the US rate go up significantly with the pandemic, while everyone else's rate went down?
posted by ssg at 5:18 PM on February 16, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by ssg at 5:18 PM on February 16, 2022 [5 favorites]
According to the NTSA, traffic fatalities did decrease in the US from March-May 2020, but significantly increased the following months:
Early Estimates of Motor Vehicle Traffic Fatalities and Fatality Rate by Sub-Categories in 2020
With high increases among the male, 25-34 age group.
(Also the document says that pedestrian fatalities are flat from 2019-2020, which requires a bit more investigation)
posted by meowzilla at 5:31 PM on February 16, 2022 [2 favorites]
Early Estimates of Motor Vehicle Traffic Fatalities and Fatality Rate by Sub-Categories in 2020
With high increases among the male, 25-34 age group.
(Also the document says that pedestrian fatalities are flat from 2019-2020, which requires a bit more investigation)
posted by meowzilla at 5:31 PM on February 16, 2022 [2 favorites]
Car size definitely affects outcomes from collisions with bikes and pedestrians both in height/impact areas but also stopping distance. Chicago was recently ranked 99 out of 104 US cities for biking which shocked everyone. A full 16 places behind Jacksonville Florida!? Apparently this was because of the 30 mph default speed limit .
From ActiveTrans: Their concerns are backed by research. A direct correlation exists between vehicle speed and the severity of an injury in a crash, even on residential streets. According to the Federal Highway Administration, a person hit by a car at 20 mph has a 90 percent chance of survival, while at 30 mph a person’s survival rate drops to 50 percent.
On a purely anecdotal note, as a cyclist and pedestrian I feel much less safe now than I did in 2019. My impression is this change in driver behavior is due to distraction, multitasking, a carryover of speeding behaviors from empty roads in 2020, and an extension of the “everyone out for themselves/me first” culture of US society.
posted by Bunglegirl at 6:01 PM on February 16, 2022 [12 favorites]
From ActiveTrans: Their concerns are backed by research. A direct correlation exists between vehicle speed and the severity of an injury in a crash, even on residential streets. According to the Federal Highway Administration, a person hit by a car at 20 mph has a 90 percent chance of survival, while at 30 mph a person’s survival rate drops to 50 percent.
On a purely anecdotal note, as a cyclist and pedestrian I feel much less safe now than I did in 2019. My impression is this change in driver behavior is due to distraction, multitasking, a carryover of speeding behaviors from empty roads in 2020, and an extension of the “everyone out for themselves/me first” culture of US society.
posted by Bunglegirl at 6:01 PM on February 16, 2022 [12 favorites]
Just anecdotally I can say that in the last couple of months I have seen some SCARY shit on the 405. I've been driving the freeways in LA for decades and I've never seen so many scary near-misses. I'm talking about drivers zipping across multiple lanes at top speed without even signaling first, or zooming by you so fast you feel like you're standing still. In the past that kind of shit happened but it wasn't constant. These days I might see two very near-misses during a one-hour trip. People drive like they're playing GTA.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 6:24 PM on February 16, 2022 [15 favorites]
posted by Ursula Hitler at 6:24 PM on February 16, 2022 [15 favorites]
I don't think weight of vehicles on it's own is a particularly important factor
Lighter cars stop in a shorter distance and handle better in pretty much every way, shape, and form. It's why race series almost always have a minimum weight restriction.
It can mean the difference between a vehicle hitting a pedestrian or not.
posted by VTX at 7:02 PM on February 16, 2022 [10 favorites]
Lighter cars stop in a shorter distance and handle better in pretty much every way, shape, and form. It's why race series almost always have a minimum weight restriction.
It can mean the difference between a vehicle hitting a pedestrian or not.
posted by VTX at 7:02 PM on February 16, 2022 [10 favorites]
Just want to ++++++++ raising the alarm about vehicle size. It's not an open question whether oversized vehicles are deadlier-- research shows it to be true. They also lock us deeper and deeper into an out-of-scale built environment designed no longer even just for cars but for these enormous trucks; wider and longer and heavier vehicles demand bigger parking spaces, more generous stretches of road where traffic stalls, more constant work to maintain the road surface. If car manufacturers can't show any restraint (which they apparently can't), state and local governments need to start regulating the size of consumer vehicles that can be legally driven on public roads.
posted by dusty potato at 7:04 PM on February 16, 2022 [30 favorites]
posted by dusty potato at 7:04 PM on February 16, 2022 [30 favorites]
Are electric vehicles really heavier? Interesting. No gas engine or gas in a tank, but heavy battery.
My immediate guess was a certain Fuck You attitude that just keeps growing. You want me to wear a mask? Fuck you. You want to ride a bike(and leave more room on the road for everybody, by the way)? Fuck you. You want me to drive an appropriately-sized vehicle and use less fossil fuel? Fuck You.
posted by theora55 at 7:06 PM on February 16, 2022 [27 favorites]
My immediate guess was a certain Fuck You attitude that just keeps growing. You want me to wear a mask? Fuck you. You want to ride a bike(and leave more room on the road for everybody, by the way)? Fuck you. You want me to drive an appropriately-sized vehicle and use less fossil fuel? Fuck You.
posted by theora55 at 7:06 PM on February 16, 2022 [27 favorites]
If car manufacturers can't show any restraint (which they apparently can't), state and local governments need to start regulating the size of consumer vehicles that can be legally driven on public roads.
Definitely true that these vehicles place a burden on society at large but this seems impracticable. I'd suggest high taxes on oversized vehicles, used to fund alternative modes of transport.
posted by viborg at 7:45 PM on February 16, 2022 [2 favorites]
Definitely true that these vehicles place a burden on society at large but this seems impracticable. I'd suggest high taxes on oversized vehicles, used to fund alternative modes of transport.
posted by viborg at 7:45 PM on February 16, 2022 [2 favorites]
Sure, it's impractical in a sort of tautological way... by definition, the most "practical" solutions for entrenched social problems are always going to be the ones that don't really do much.
posted by dusty potato at 7:54 PM on February 16, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by dusty potato at 7:54 PM on February 16, 2022 [3 favorites]
NZ anecdata, yes there's (still) a lot less traffic on the roads (we have 0 car type tourists), but many kiwis are driving even worse than before, serious corner cutting, accelerating at pedestrians - I had that happen to me a month ago, and just care-less driving.
Seem to be more angry people driving - most sensible people are travelling as little as possible. But idiots and vax deniers keep on driving, and many sem livid from having a powerful, competent female prime minister.
Also there's a definite increase in ownership of US type utes - mainly driven by red-faced males, I used to own a Ford Ranger and it felt small alongside F150's etc - aggressive driving is part of the package IMO. The Venn diagram of most of the above is a near perfect circle. theora55 is right on the money.
Total road deaths 2019 350 8%, 2020 320 9.5%, 2021 319 7.8%, long term average 1 in 9 are pedestrians.
posted by unearthed at 8:09 PM on February 16, 2022 [4 favorites]
Seem to be more angry people driving - most sensible people are travelling as little as possible. But idiots and vax deniers keep on driving, and many sem livid from having a powerful, competent female prime minister.
Also there's a definite increase in ownership of US type utes - mainly driven by red-faced males, I used to own a Ford Ranger and it felt small alongside F150's etc - aggressive driving is part of the package IMO. The Venn diagram of most of the above is a near perfect circle. theora55 is right on the money.
Total road deaths 2019 350 8%, 2020 320 9.5%, 2021 319 7.8%, long term average 1 in 9 are pedestrians.
posted by unearthed at 8:09 PM on February 16, 2022 [4 favorites]
If you want to see some global comparisons - albeit back in 2018
https://extranet.who.int/roadsafety/death-on-the-roads
You can check what measures are in place - and if there are "good laws" regarding those measures, as well as vehicle standards. And way back then - the legal measures in the US were not considered "good" - partly as a result of inconsistent standards across the country.
Also back in 2018
https://usa.streetsblog.org/2018/08/29/the-best-tool-for-reducing-traffic-deaths-more-transit/
The post-Covid desire to maintain a secure bubble means that transit may be under-utilised. My elderly mother PREFERS public transit as there is more space, better distancing, etc - but I suspect she is an exception.
posted by Barbara Spitzer at 9:12 PM on February 16, 2022 [2 favorites]
https://extranet.who.int/roadsafety/death-on-the-roads
You can check what measures are in place - and if there are "good laws" regarding those measures, as well as vehicle standards. And way back then - the legal measures in the US were not considered "good" - partly as a result of inconsistent standards across the country.
Also back in 2018
https://usa.streetsblog.org/2018/08/29/the-best-tool-for-reducing-traffic-deaths-more-transit/
The post-Covid desire to maintain a secure bubble means that transit may be under-utilised. My elderly mother PREFERS public transit as there is more space, better distancing, etc - but I suspect she is an exception.
posted by Barbara Spitzer at 9:12 PM on February 16, 2022 [2 favorites]
So if, to summarize, we're looking for a cause of increased traffic fatalities that's US-specific, started around 2H 2020, and invariant with overall traffic volume, wouldn't the obvious candidate be the reduced policing effort (almost a work-to-rule strike) we've seen in many parts of the country since the George Floyd protests?
posted by kickingtheground at 9:39 PM on February 16, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by kickingtheground at 9:39 PM on February 16, 2022 [4 favorites]
Ctrl + f "smartphones" : 0 results come on y'all
posted by Dokterrock at 10:28 PM on February 16, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Dokterrock at 10:28 PM on February 16, 2022 [1 favorite]
Do you think only the US has smartphones ?
posted by Pendragon at 11:14 PM on February 16, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by Pendragon at 11:14 PM on February 16, 2022 [2 favorites]
Smartphones may be a factor, but I think theora55 is right - people be arseholes and people out and about in a pandemic are more likely to be arseholes so, more arseholes = more accidents.
posted by dg at 11:14 PM on February 16, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by dg at 11:14 PM on February 16, 2022 [3 favorites]
I'm sympathetic to the Strong Towns argument in the last two FPP links - as I think that structural traffic calming methods are the only way to reduce car use and deaths in the long term - but the evidence that he's asking for doesn't seem to bear out Marohn's speculation about the causes of this spike.
If you look at the link in meowzilla's post, this shows the subcategories that are driving the spike in 2020:
However, occupant ejection and unrestrained occupants are both up (driving without seatbelts), as is alcohol involvement. It's also younger, more male categories. Marohn suggests that these guys are at higher risk anyway and are just showing up because of lack of congestion, but that seems like a reach - the simpler explanation is the asshole theory.
Single vehicle crashes work against his theory of "speed plus randomness" - in the aggregate, this is more likely to demonstrate people speeding and crashing into telegraph poles, rather than surprises happening because someone pulls out unexpectedly on a badly designed road.
Finally and most importantly, the accident timing subcategories strongly disagree with Marohn's testable predictions. Deaths are still spiking at night and weekends, not at all like the pattern he expects in his graphs. That's strong evidence that this is young male assholes driving drunk at night and at weekends, not throughout the day as he expects.
posted by chappell, ambrose at 12:11 AM on February 17, 2022 [6 favorites]
If you look at the link in meowzilla's post, this shows the subcategories that are driving the spike in 2020:
- on rural local/collector roads (up 11%), urban interstates (up 15%), and urban local/collector roads (up 12%);
- during nighttime (up 11%);
- during the weekend (up 9%);
- in older vehicles 10 years or older (up 6%);
- in rollover crashes (up 9%);
- occupant ejection (up 20%);
- in single-vehicle crashes (up 9%);
- in speeding-related crashes (up 11%);
- in the 16-to-24 age group (up 15%), the 25-to-34 age group (up 18%), and the 35-to-44 age group (up 14%);
- males (up 9%);
- unrestrained occupants of passenger vehicles (up 15%);
- Black people (up 23%); and
- in police-reported alcohol involvement crashes (up 9%).
However, occupant ejection and unrestrained occupants are both up (driving without seatbelts), as is alcohol involvement. It's also younger, more male categories. Marohn suggests that these guys are at higher risk anyway and are just showing up because of lack of congestion, but that seems like a reach - the simpler explanation is the asshole theory.
Single vehicle crashes work against his theory of "speed plus randomness" - in the aggregate, this is more likely to demonstrate people speeding and crashing into telegraph poles, rather than surprises happening because someone pulls out unexpectedly on a badly designed road.
Finally and most importantly, the accident timing subcategories strongly disagree with Marohn's testable predictions. Deaths are still spiking at night and weekends, not at all like the pattern he expects in his graphs. That's strong evidence that this is young male assholes driving drunk at night and at weekends, not throughout the day as he expects.
posted by chappell, ambrose at 12:11 AM on February 17, 2022 [6 favorites]
I did not read all the links because I can only handle so much rage as a regular walker that has come close to being smeared too many times, but what I did read…
Why is there no mention of the exponential uptick in home delivery since the pandemic- between Amazon, grocery delivery, and food delivery, there are so many more vehicles on the road idling. And food delivery apps push their drivers to drive faster. They are a nightmare of distraction, asking drivers to make decisions too quickly, so you’re practically forced to drive like a distracted asshole.
There is one popular takeout hotspot near me that always has a crazy number of drivers idling. Loading zone becomes two cars deep on a road with single lanes. Cars just U turn to not have to take an extra block or two for a safe turn around. I had the pleasure of having a crash happen right in front of me as I was waiting for the walk signal. It’s one of many on that stretch of road.
It’s not the only thing, but it’s a change and I’m sure it’s playing a role. I suspect it is changing the behavior of delivery drivers even when they aren’t driving.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 12:19 AM on February 17, 2022 [19 favorites]
Why is there no mention of the exponential uptick in home delivery since the pandemic- between Amazon, grocery delivery, and food delivery, there are so many more vehicles on the road idling. And food delivery apps push their drivers to drive faster. They are a nightmare of distraction, asking drivers to make decisions too quickly, so you’re practically forced to drive like a distracted asshole.
There is one popular takeout hotspot near me that always has a crazy number of drivers idling. Loading zone becomes two cars deep on a road with single lanes. Cars just U turn to not have to take an extra block or two for a safe turn around. I had the pleasure of having a crash happen right in front of me as I was waiting for the walk signal. It’s one of many on that stretch of road.
It’s not the only thing, but it’s a change and I’m sure it’s playing a role. I suspect it is changing the behavior of delivery drivers even when they aren’t driving.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 12:19 AM on February 17, 2022 [19 favorites]
Also, bigger trucks and SUVs terrify me and are a horrible trend for so many reasons mentioned in this thread - visibility, how they strike pedestrians - plus they are a nightmare for the environment, as I wrote a couple of years back.
I'd be quite surprised if they were driving a dramatic year-on-year spike, though, and all else aside I'd look to speed increases before I looked at weight increases, just because of how kinetic energy works:
KE = 1/2 m v2
The energy involved in the crash is what kills people. As you can see, there's a constant multiplied by mass... multiplied by velocity squared. So the energy transmitted in a crash goes up linearly when you increase the mass of a vehicle, but it goes up as a square function when you increase the speed of the vehicle.
Again, it's quite possible that mass is the culprit and not speed. But because of physics, a given increase in speed (say, doubling) is much more dangerous than an equivalent increase in mass, so that's where I'd look first.
posted by chappell, ambrose at 12:21 AM on February 17, 2022 [4 favorites]
I'd be quite surprised if they were driving a dramatic year-on-year spike, though, and all else aside I'd look to speed increases before I looked at weight increases, just because of how kinetic energy works:
KE = 1/2 m v2
The energy involved in the crash is what kills people. As you can see, there's a constant multiplied by mass... multiplied by velocity squared. So the energy transmitted in a crash goes up linearly when you increase the mass of a vehicle, but it goes up as a square function when you increase the speed of the vehicle.
Again, it's quite possible that mass is the culprit and not speed. But because of physics, a given increase in speed (say, doubling) is much more dangerous than an equivalent increase in mass, so that's where I'd look first.
posted by chappell, ambrose at 12:21 AM on February 17, 2022 [4 favorites]
accelerating at pedestrians
The first time this happened to me, years ago, I was pretty shocked. These days it's a weekly event, often followed by screaming. It doesn't matter if I the pedestrian have a right of way (zebra crossing). Just my observations. I am in a large European city — but one where deadly incidents have increased in the last few years. Friends visiting have mentioned "there's a lot of aggression here!"
Visiting the US I've felt 'at home's in a sense. My guess is that it's the same thing others have been saying here: it's not the streets, it's the assholes.
posted by UN at 12:42 AM on February 17, 2022 [4 favorites]
The first time this happened to me, years ago, I was pretty shocked. These days it's a weekly event, often followed by screaming. It doesn't matter if I the pedestrian have a right of way (zebra crossing). Just my observations. I am in a large European city — but one where deadly incidents have increased in the last few years. Friends visiting have mentioned "there's a lot of aggression here!"
Visiting the US I've felt 'at home's in a sense. My guess is that it's the same thing others have been saying here: it's not the streets, it's the assholes.
posted by UN at 12:42 AM on February 17, 2022 [4 favorites]
Another aspect of vehicle design is the reduced viability in modern cars, particularly the ever-growing A-pillar.
posted by St. Oops at 12:56 AM on February 17, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by St. Oops at 12:56 AM on February 17, 2022 [3 favorites]
I think my TL;DR here is that people are understandably focusing on the long-term, structural problems around car and/or road design.
These are more important overall, so it's right to bring them up, but they actually aren't a great explanation for a short-term, year-on-year spikes in fatality rates: cars and roads didn't change 2019 - 2020, so you need to contort the explanation (like Marohn does, saying that the pandemic exacerbated road design problems that were there all along).
The evidence isn't there for Marohn's hypothesis, though, and it isn't really there for car design either (look again at the NHTSA headline figures: fatalities involving older vehicles spiked, not newer vehicles).
Instead, the spike is much more likely to be related to the massive, revolutionary event that affected all areas of our lives and behaviours at the same time: the pandemic.
The pandemic provides a whole suite of much simpler, short-term behavioural mechanisms that could be the culprit. It could be that we all forgot how to drive around other people, and/or went stir crazy being cooped up, and/or got politically polarized along selfish vs selfless lines, etc etc. Mostly variations on the "assholes" theory. This is probably going to turn out to be correct, IMO.
Also, Marohn suggests that nobody has done the research around local vaccination rates vs changes in local RTA fatality rates, and that this is because it's self-evidently untrue:
posted by chappell, ambrose at 1:40 AM on February 17, 2022 [3 favorites]
These are more important overall, so it's right to bring them up, but they actually aren't a great explanation for a short-term, year-on-year spikes in fatality rates: cars and roads didn't change 2019 - 2020, so you need to contort the explanation (like Marohn does, saying that the pandemic exacerbated road design problems that were there all along).
The evidence isn't there for Marohn's hypothesis, though, and it isn't really there for car design either (look again at the NHTSA headline figures: fatalities involving older vehicles spiked, not newer vehicles).
Instead, the spike is much more likely to be related to the massive, revolutionary event that affected all areas of our lives and behaviours at the same time: the pandemic.
The pandemic provides a whole suite of much simpler, short-term behavioural mechanisms that could be the culprit. It could be that we all forgot how to drive around other people, and/or went stir crazy being cooped up, and/or got politically polarized along selfish vs selfless lines, etc etc. Mostly variations on the "assholes" theory. This is probably going to turn out to be correct, IMO.
Also, Marohn suggests that nobody has done the research around local vaccination rates vs changes in local RTA fatality rates, and that this is because it's self-evidently untrue:
I suggested earlier that we could test the “selfishness” theory, as defined by the experts, by looking at crash data correlated with vaccination rates. It’s not being tested because it’s a silly theory.This doesn't seem right - this research hasn't been done because the granular data isn't out there yet.
posted by chappell, ambrose at 1:40 AM on February 17, 2022 [3 favorites]
Anecdata from another country: in Poland they finally raised traffic fine amounts that had been frozen since 1996, which means that maximum fine amounts went up six times, with exponential growth e.g. for speeding depending on how much you were over (going 10 km/h faster than the limit is about $25, +50 km/h is $630, DUI is also $630 plus your license suspended for a while etc), closed the loophole that meant it was worth it to lie about how you didn't know who was driving your car, and introduced a new rule that pedestrians have right of way as soon as they indicate intent to cross by approaching the edge of a pedestrian crossing. The influence on the generally aggressive driving habits in Warsaw has been magic, especially re reasonable speeds. Too early to estimate the traffic impact of the fine change, but the pedestrian right of way resulted in pedestrian crossing fatalities falling by 36% in 2021 compared to more-locked-down 2020.
Taxes, fines and traffic rules that prioritise vulnerable road users: they work.
posted by I claim sanctuary at 3:09 AM on February 17, 2022 [15 favorites]
Taxes, fines and traffic rules that prioritise vulnerable road users: they work.
posted by I claim sanctuary at 3:09 AM on February 17, 2022 [15 favorites]
I think food delivery services are worth considering, as mentioned upthread. There has been a massive uptick in non-professional drivers on tight schedules managing delivery apps and food containers while driving in unfamiliar neighborhoods. These deliveries happen on evenings and weekends. The drivers are skewed towards the demographics with the biggest increases...
posted by Nothing at 3:15 AM on February 17, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by Nothing at 3:15 AM on February 17, 2022 [8 favorites]
The UK has just added new rules to its Highway Code based on a hierarchy of road-users. The central idea is that the more vulnerable you are, the more priority and right of way you get: lorries should give way to cars, cars to cyclists and cyclists to pedestrians. How many drivers are aware of these changes and whether the worst offenders will take any notice of them remains to be seen.
posted by Paul Slade at 3:47 AM on February 17, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Paul Slade at 3:47 AM on February 17, 2022 [1 favorite]
The UK has just added new rules to its Highway Code based on a hierarchy of road-users.
As a British cyclist who's been embroiled in arguments before about "taking the lane" (including on here!), I've been very pleased about Point 4, which recognises that cyclists should use this practice to prevent unsafe overtaking by moving motorists and being doored by parked motorists.
posted by chappell, ambrose at 4:17 AM on February 17, 2022 [2 favorites]
As a British cyclist who's been embroiled in arguments before about "taking the lane" (including on here!), I've been very pleased about Point 4, which recognises that cyclists should use this practice to prevent unsafe overtaking by moving motorists and being doored by parked motorists.
posted by chappell, ambrose at 4:17 AM on February 17, 2022 [2 favorites]
I feel like an unmentioned factor behind all this is that insurance companies have no incentive to pressure manufacturers and vehicle operators to protect the lives of pedestrians or drivers. For an insurance company a fatality is often cheaper than a disability. In Canada when I worked as an insurance analyst 20 years ago a fatal claim on an auto insurance policy triggered a reserve of just over $100K cdn. A serious injury resulting in disability resulted in a reserve of $1 to $1.5 million.
It used to be that insurance companies pushed auto makers really hard on vehicle safety because they thought it cost them money. Now it is just priced in and there is a significant moral hazard of actively preferring death over survival.
posted by srboisvert at 4:43 AM on February 17, 2022 [15 favorites]
It used to be that insurance companies pushed auto makers really hard on vehicle safety because they thought it cost them money. Now it is just priced in and there is a significant moral hazard of actively preferring death over survival.
posted by srboisvert at 4:43 AM on February 17, 2022 [15 favorites]
So if, to summarize, we're looking for a cause of increased traffic fatalities that's US-specific, started around 2H 2020, and invariant with overall traffic volume, wouldn't the obvious candidate be the reduced policing effort (almost a work-to-rule strike) we've seen in many parts of the country since the George Floyd protests?
Chicago police have been on an informal work to rule strike since the public learned about their execution of Laquan McDonald around 2015 so it might provide a nice discontinuity for people to look at if they want to tease out effects of traffic enforcement.
posted by srboisvert at 4:51 AM on February 17, 2022 [5 favorites]
Chicago police have been on an informal work to rule strike since the public learned about their execution of Laquan McDonald around 2015 so it might provide a nice discontinuity for people to look at if they want to tease out effects of traffic enforcement.
posted by srboisvert at 4:51 AM on February 17, 2022 [5 favorites]
people be arseholes and people out and about in a pandemic are more likely to be arseholes so, more arseholes = more accidents.
You're referring to the people who are delivering you the food you ordered, presumably? Give me a break.
posted by King Bee at 5:24 AM on February 17, 2022
You're referring to the people who are delivering you the food you ordered, presumably? Give me a break.
posted by King Bee at 5:24 AM on February 17, 2022
lots of goodness here. I drive a big ass battery around and it’s acceleration is amazing, so I put those settings on ‘wimpy’ because I have had too many close calls without the crazy momentum monster I have now.
All cars have too much acceleration rn. If elon or watson is going to be ‘assisting’ us they should clamp acceleration after a light. People maintain 10+ over the limit and yellow lights are an impossibility at these speeds. So where I live, no kidding, you have to wait for up to three cars running the light - up to three ‘mississippis’ before you can go at a green. Also my car has a helpful chime when the light turns green - which I love in the winter with the sun in my eyes at 8am - but I suspect is there to alert the driver to put the phone aside.
I think in all realms the ‘fuck you’ impulses are gaining, and the FU virtuosos are dragging us all with them.
I see have up to 20 atv’s and mx doing wheelies on the yellow line or straight playing chicken with me on my side of the road at least once a week. Parking in a lane in front of two open curb spots is now normal for delivery drivers who are afraid other delivery drivers will box them in.
It is now normal to decide you need to take a left while in the right lane crossing another full lane in the same direction, going around the block is not a thing. Once a month I see someone cross into oncoming traffic to take a right on red in front of two lanes of traffic. Seriously it is crazy. I am scared to drive a car, and I look at my plastic bike helmet and hmm…
Looking at the rise in rural and single accidents, i would guess delivery services in unfamiliar spots, all people with too much vehicle, and phones. Or maybe we will find out that microplastics are doing to us the opposite of what lead did. Making us less reactive while we are being less thoughtful. Or maybe it is those vax mandates injecting 5G right into our veins.
But after some coffee, I am betting on the power and the phones and the late capitalism.
posted by drowsy at 5:54 AM on February 17, 2022 [3 favorites]
All cars have too much acceleration rn. If elon or watson is going to be ‘assisting’ us they should clamp acceleration after a light. People maintain 10+ over the limit and yellow lights are an impossibility at these speeds. So where I live, no kidding, you have to wait for up to three cars running the light - up to three ‘mississippis’ before you can go at a green. Also my car has a helpful chime when the light turns green - which I love in the winter with the sun in my eyes at 8am - but I suspect is there to alert the driver to put the phone aside.
I think in all realms the ‘fuck you’ impulses are gaining, and the FU virtuosos are dragging us all with them.
I see have up to 20 atv’s and mx doing wheelies on the yellow line or straight playing chicken with me on my side of the road at least once a week. Parking in a lane in front of two open curb spots is now normal for delivery drivers who are afraid other delivery drivers will box them in.
It is now normal to decide you need to take a left while in the right lane crossing another full lane in the same direction, going around the block is not a thing. Once a month I see someone cross into oncoming traffic to take a right on red in front of two lanes of traffic. Seriously it is crazy. I am scared to drive a car, and I look at my plastic bike helmet and hmm…
Looking at the rise in rural and single accidents, i would guess delivery services in unfamiliar spots, all people with too much vehicle, and phones. Or maybe we will find out that microplastics are doing to us the opposite of what lead did. Making us less reactive while we are being less thoughtful. Or maybe it is those vax mandates injecting 5G right into our veins.
But after some coffee, I am betting on the power and the phones and the late capitalism.
posted by drowsy at 5:54 AM on February 17, 2022 [3 favorites]
As a daily bike commuter, I have not seen any uptick in crazy driving, though it's pretty subjective an experience. I bike as if all car drivers (including myself if I was behind a wheel) are total idiots as a result of poor design of both roads and vehicles for everything else around.
I ride to minimize or eliminate the total kinetic energy pointed in my direction or potentially so.
As a driver, being a biker improves my awareness of conditions on the street, yet also reduces my skill set as I drive less so my driving reflexes degrade somewhat between car trips.
The driver side pillar blocks my vision in a key area for detecting pedestrians or bikers....certainly doesn't help much that some small segment of bikers prove their individuality by riding against traffic in dicey situations.
As a biker I am daily confronted with situations where the traffic engineers have made decisions that reduce or eliminate safe biking around cars, perhaps even while trying to improve it. I have a variety of strategies I use to ride safely around cars, one of which is always be paranoid. You can't be careful enough and a moment's inattention is enough to lead to injury perhaps seriously so.
Just two days ago a driver was going slow towards me as I was crossing a crosswalk on my bike. They didn't actually stop as I was crossing, it was if they didn't actually perceive I was there. That's the kind of slow moving assumption that gets you hurt.
posted by diode at 6:10 AM on February 17, 2022 [1 favorite]
I ride to minimize or eliminate the total kinetic energy pointed in my direction or potentially so.
As a driver, being a biker improves my awareness of conditions on the street, yet also reduces my skill set as I drive less so my driving reflexes degrade somewhat between car trips.
The driver side pillar blocks my vision in a key area for detecting pedestrians or bikers....certainly doesn't help much that some small segment of bikers prove their individuality by riding against traffic in dicey situations.
As a biker I am daily confronted with situations where the traffic engineers have made decisions that reduce or eliminate safe biking around cars, perhaps even while trying to improve it. I have a variety of strategies I use to ride safely around cars, one of which is always be paranoid. You can't be careful enough and a moment's inattention is enough to lead to injury perhaps seriously so.
Just two days ago a driver was going slow towards me as I was crossing a crosswalk on my bike. They didn't actually stop as I was crossing, it was if they didn't actually perceive I was there. That's the kind of slow moving assumption that gets you hurt.
posted by diode at 6:10 AM on February 17, 2022 [1 favorite]
You're referring to the people who are delivering you the food you ordered, presumably? Give me a break.
Doing something professionally incurs more responsibility, not less. That said, I've never ordered delivery food in my life, mainly because of the impact that too many people driving delivery vehicles at unrealistic schedules has.
posted by ambrosen at 6:35 AM on February 17, 2022 [2 favorites]
Doing something professionally incurs more responsibility, not less. That said, I've never ordered delivery food in my life, mainly because of the impact that too many people driving delivery vehicles at unrealistic schedules has.
posted by ambrosen at 6:35 AM on February 17, 2022 [2 favorites]
We got a lot of snow recently and the plows have piled it up four or more feet high in places. Two weeks ago a pedestrian was struck and killed by a car backing out of a driveway. So far, the driver was only ticketed for "unsafe backing". And that right there is a big part of the issue. You can mow down pedestrians and bicyclists with your enormous SUV and only have to pay a small fine, there's really no incentive to do better. Until that happens, you're taking your life in your hands being anywhere near a road.
posted by tommasz at 6:44 AM on February 17, 2022 [11 favorites]
posted by tommasz at 6:44 AM on February 17, 2022 [11 favorites]
The fact that so many people are too busy looking at their phones to notice when the red light changes to green is more proof that we are all stuck in a Stockholm Syndrome transportation system where everyone secretly knows it's horrible and boring.
You know who doesn't kill anyone by looking at their phone? People on the train/bus.
posted by rhymedirective at 7:39 AM on February 17, 2022 [6 favorites]
You know who doesn't kill anyone by looking at their phone? People on the train/bus.
posted by rhymedirective at 7:39 AM on February 17, 2022 [6 favorites]
In the USA, it feels like there's something to an ideological explanation for all of this - there's a whole lot less a sense of a shared responsibility, a commons that we maintain; the idea that the safety of somebody outside your car is as important as the safety as somebody inside it.
But I'm a bit resistant to ideological notions, and I favor structural or material ones. But what is it? Is it that we get so little benefit from our commons, from our society, that there's just no benefit to not taking anything we can get from the world around us? Is it a Foucault's pendulum thing? All our society and economy has been built so that so much is extracted from us, so we extract as much as we can - space, speed, etc, at the cost of the risk and the consequencs - in return?
I think that's what I'm settling on. I've seen in my city lots of safer-street changes - protected bike lanes, daylighted intersections, pedestrian space - and I've seen people just park their cars on all that safety infrastructure, blocking lanes, blocking sidewalks, blocking views, et cetera - and there are no consequences (because the cops, not the design or automation tech, do the enforcement - and the cops don't want to, because they want to use that space too instead of share it), so it just keeps on happening, which means that paint or flexposts (you know, protective posts designed to be driven over... which turns out, isn't all that protective!) don't offer any protection... but now drivers, who are much in the minority in my city, feel aggrieved that their needs aren't the only ones reflected in the streetspace around them.
ugh.
posted by entropone at 7:43 AM on February 17, 2022 [5 favorites]
But I'm a bit resistant to ideological notions, and I favor structural or material ones. But what is it? Is it that we get so little benefit from our commons, from our society, that there's just no benefit to not taking anything we can get from the world around us? Is it a Foucault's pendulum thing? All our society and economy has been built so that so much is extracted from us, so we extract as much as we can - space, speed, etc, at the cost of the risk and the consequencs - in return?
I think that's what I'm settling on. I've seen in my city lots of safer-street changes - protected bike lanes, daylighted intersections, pedestrian space - and I've seen people just park their cars on all that safety infrastructure, blocking lanes, blocking sidewalks, blocking views, et cetera - and there are no consequences (because the cops, not the design or automation tech, do the enforcement - and the cops don't want to, because they want to use that space too instead of share it), so it just keeps on happening, which means that paint or flexposts (you know, protective posts designed to be driven over... which turns out, isn't all that protective!) don't offer any protection... but now drivers, who are much in the minority in my city, feel aggrieved that their needs aren't the only ones reflected in the streetspace around them.
ugh.
posted by entropone at 7:43 AM on February 17, 2022 [5 favorites]
It’s not the only thing, but it’s a change and I’m sure it’s playing a role. I suspect it is changing the behavior of delivery drivers even when they aren’t driving.
Ooops, belated edit, I meant to say that it's changing the driving behavior of delivery drivers even when they aren't delivering.
And as an addendum: I've done food delivery casually, and have to actively resist the subtle prompts to hurry hurry hurry. Having some awareness of UX design, I'm certain this is an intentional design choice.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 7:58 AM on February 17, 2022
Ooops, belated edit, I meant to say that it's changing the driving behavior of delivery drivers even when they aren't delivering.
And as an addendum: I've done food delivery casually, and have to actively resist the subtle prompts to hurry hurry hurry. Having some awareness of UX design, I'm certain this is an intentional design choice.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 7:58 AM on February 17, 2022
You're referring to the people who are delivering you the food you ordered, presumably? Give me a break.
If you think those people are driving safely you haven't been on the streets in a city very much during the pandemic. As someone who did all of his own grocery shopping throughout the pandemic because I was uncomfortable with the morality of offloading my risk on the less fortunate I can tell you from experience that lots of Instacarters can't even drive shopping carts safely! Piecework rates also don't exactly encourage safe practices in any domain.
I'm curious how much is impaired driving though. People are going to drive drunk because public transit/cabs/ride-share all involve exposure risks. People are also driving with covid and that's a significant impairment. Then some people are driving with long-covid brain fog. Then others are driving with the heightened anxiety/fear cortisol elevation stress that makes them more aggressive and explosive. I think the pandemic has basically just lit every possible fuse for human shitiness. There is a lot of impairment out there from a lot of causes right now.
posted by srboisvert at 8:24 AM on February 17, 2022 [5 favorites]
If you think those people are driving safely you haven't been on the streets in a city very much during the pandemic. As someone who did all of his own grocery shopping throughout the pandemic because I was uncomfortable with the morality of offloading my risk on the less fortunate I can tell you from experience that lots of Instacarters can't even drive shopping carts safely! Piecework rates also don't exactly encourage safe practices in any domain.
I'm curious how much is impaired driving though. People are going to drive drunk because public transit/cabs/ride-share all involve exposure risks. People are also driving with covid and that's a significant impairment. Then some people are driving with long-covid brain fog. Then others are driving with the heightened anxiety/fear cortisol elevation stress that makes them more aggressive and explosive. I think the pandemic has basically just lit every possible fuse for human shitiness. There is a lot of impairment out there from a lot of causes right now.
posted by srboisvert at 8:24 AM on February 17, 2022 [5 favorites]
food delivery apps push their drivers to drive faster.
I think this, and kind of the other factors that play a role in this, is really the root cause. It’s easy to blame asshole drivers, because that makes it an individual rather than systemic problem. But the question of /why/ people are /motivated/ to drive so fast is really I think at least equally as important as the design of the roads that let them drive so fast.
Whenever I’ve found myself driving faster than usual, it’s always because of fear of being late for some event that will majorly negatively impact my life. Work, where you can get fired if you’re five minutes late. Court, where a warrant can be put out for your arrest if you’re not there in time.
What if we had a society or economy where being on time to the minute was not as important? I think that would definitely impact how fast people drive.
posted by corb at 8:30 AM on February 17, 2022 [5 favorites]
I think this, and kind of the other factors that play a role in this, is really the root cause. It’s easy to blame asshole drivers, because that makes it an individual rather than systemic problem. But the question of /why/ people are /motivated/ to drive so fast is really I think at least equally as important as the design of the roads that let them drive so fast.
Whenever I’ve found myself driving faster than usual, it’s always because of fear of being late for some event that will majorly negatively impact my life. Work, where you can get fired if you’re five minutes late. Court, where a warrant can be put out for your arrest if you’re not there in time.
What if we had a society or economy where being on time to the minute was not as important? I think that would definitely impact how fast people drive.
posted by corb at 8:30 AM on February 17, 2022 [5 favorites]
/why/ people are /motivated/ to drive so fast
Because driving fast is fun. That's like the idea behind roller coasters, skiing, and tons of other recreational activities. I don't think you have to think too deeply about the reasons why people like to move fast, other than the reason why it is enabled and encouraged on public streets.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:35 AM on February 17, 2022 [1 favorite]
Because driving fast is fun. That's like the idea behind roller coasters, skiing, and tons of other recreational activities. I don't think you have to think too deeply about the reasons why people like to move fast, other than the reason why it is enabled and encouraged on public streets.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:35 AM on February 17, 2022 [1 favorite]
I can't only speak as a United States resident, but I think it's fair to summarize that:
1) Vehicles are getting too damn big. The high hoods on trucks are the biggest issue for pedestrians. You're more likely to get knocked down instead of going over the hood, and less likely to be seen due to reduced visibility. A kid could get knocked down and run over and the driver might not even know.
2) Roads are poorly designed. If there's less congestion to slow drivers down, the only thing that will are streets that aren't designed for speeding. Not speed limits, not enforcement. I'm ambivalent about Marohn at times, but he's right about this, and state departments of transportation are 100% complicit.
3) People are increasingly assholes on the road. I would argue that this is easier in a big truck/SUV. Just your own private palace, the outside world be damned. And there's a subset of the culture wars going on, wherein an increase in bike and pedestrian advocacy has been answered with an increased aggression toward them by many, many drivers.
These can all be true, and it's all very depressing.
posted by gordie at 8:36 AM on February 17, 2022 [12 favorites]
1) Vehicles are getting too damn big. The high hoods on trucks are the biggest issue for pedestrians. You're more likely to get knocked down instead of going over the hood, and less likely to be seen due to reduced visibility. A kid could get knocked down and run over and the driver might not even know.
2) Roads are poorly designed. If there's less congestion to slow drivers down, the only thing that will are streets that aren't designed for speeding. Not speed limits, not enforcement. I'm ambivalent about Marohn at times, but he's right about this, and state departments of transportation are 100% complicit.
3) People are increasingly assholes on the road. I would argue that this is easier in a big truck/SUV. Just your own private palace, the outside world be damned. And there's a subset of the culture wars going on, wherein an increase in bike and pedestrian advocacy has been answered with an increased aggression toward them by many, many drivers.
These can all be true, and it's all very depressing.
posted by gordie at 8:36 AM on February 17, 2022 [12 favorites]
I like the Polish partial-solution mentioned above: catastrophic fines/penalties and would like to suggest adding a Scandinavian angle -- fines are set based on your income.
Some minimum wage guy runs a red light, he gets $100 fine (I have no idea what fines are actually like so that could be laughable). Mister Rich runs a red light, he gets a four thousand dollar fine. Or whatever.
Almost nobody speeds in Switzerland (IME), because the fines for doing so are gigantic and for them, the speed limit is exactly that -- a limit. Not a "soft cap" -- that's another thing that could change.
posted by aramaic at 8:49 AM on February 17, 2022 [6 favorites]
Some minimum wage guy runs a red light, he gets $100 fine (I have no idea what fines are actually like so that could be laughable). Mister Rich runs a red light, he gets a four thousand dollar fine. Or whatever.
Almost nobody speeds in Switzerland (IME), because the fines for doing so are gigantic and for them, the speed limit is exactly that -- a limit. Not a "soft cap" -- that's another thing that could change.
posted by aramaic at 8:49 AM on February 17, 2022 [6 favorites]
Do you think only the US has smartphones ?
No, but I can easily find all manner of sources written and data collected before the pandemic that points them being a serious contributing factor. Pedestrian deaths had been on a decades long decline up until around 2010 or so, and it doesn't take a brain genius to correlate that with the introduction of the iPhone and widespread adoption of smartphones, or to watch people drive by you for about 30 seconds to see how many of them aren't even looking at the road.
Yes, Smartphone Use Is Probably Behind the Spike in Driving Deaths. So Why Isn’t More Being Done to Curb It?
In its reassessment of data from 2015, the NSC estimated that cellphone usage was involved in 26 percent of all traffic accidents. A study released this year by Cambridge Mobile Telematics, a company that creates apps to monitor driving and smartphone usage for insurance purposes, similarly found that approximately a quarter of drivers involved in crashes were using their phones during or in the minute before the accidents occurred. As NSC spokesperson Maureen Vogel told Slate, “Based on research the council has done on the underreporting of distracted-driving crashes, we believe the number of fatal crashes that actually occur in the U.S. every year due to distraction could be double what is recorded in federal data.”
Evaluation of smartphone interactions on drivers’ brain function and vehicle control in an immersive simulated environment
Our results highlight a significant increase in bilateral prefrontal and parietal cortical activity that occurs in response to increasingly greater levels of smartphone distraction that, in turn, predicts changes in common indices of vehicle control.
Pedestrian Traffic Fatalities by State - 2019 Preliminary Data
During the 10-year period from 2009 to 2018, the number of pedestrian fatalities increased by 53% (from 4,109 deaths in 2009 to 6,283 deaths in 2018); by comparison, the combined number of all other traffic deaths increased by 2%. Along with the increase in the number of pedestrian fatalities, pedestrian deaths as a percentage of total motor vehicle crash deaths increased from 12% in 2009 to 17% in 2018. The last time pedestrians accounted for 17% of total U.S. traffic deaths was over 35 years ago, in 1982.
Earlier studies by the Governors Highway Safety Association (GHSA), based on preliminary data reported by State Highway Safety Offices (SHSOs), were the first to predict recent increases in
pedestrian fatalities. The current study, based on preliminary data from all 50 states and the District of Columbia (D.C.), found that the alarming rise in pedestrian deaths observed in both 2015 and 2016 resumed in 2018 and continued in 2019.
...
Regarding cellphone use, which can be a significant source of distraction for all road users, the reported number of smartphones in active use in the U.S. increased by 4% from 2017 to 2018, and by more than 400% from 2009 to 2018. The amount of wireless data usage in the U.S. increased by 82% from 2017 to 2018, and by more than 7,000% from 2009 to 2018. Analysis of data from the National Electronic Injury Surveillance database shows the number of cellphone-related emergency department visits is increasing in parallel with the prevalence of cellphone use in the U.S. Many of these injuries are sustained while the user is engaged in text messaging rather than conventional telephone conversation, and this trend appears to have contributed to a sharper increase in the number of incidents in recent years.
Pedestrian Deaths in 2019 Were Highest in 30 Years, Report Says
Since 2009, pedestrian fatalities have consistently grown year over year after a nearly steady decrease since 1988. A decade ago, in 2009, annual deaths were at 4109. Through 2018, the most recent year with complete data, there has been a 53 percent increase in pedestrian deaths. The GHSA's calculated total of 6590 deaths would mean that there would have been a 60 percent increase from 2009 through the end of 2019.
That being said, the Federal Highway Administration reported that motor vehicle travel increased 0.8 percent in the first half of 2019 as compared to the same period in 2018.
The association cites a number of possible reasons for the continuing increase in deaths, including the growing popularity of light trucks and SUVs, warmer weather, and an increase in cellphone use while driving. The study notes that in 2009, 48 percent of new vehicle sales were light trucks (which includes SUVs), and in 2018, that number had risen to 69 percent. It also says pedestrians who are struck by a large SUV are twice as likely to die as those struck by a car.
Clearly there are a lot of contributing factors, and our brains might have been able to mitigate a lot of them without throwing distracted driving into the mix, but once you add in that element you get what we have today, which are the deadliest road conditions for the most vulnerable users in a long, long time.
posted by Dokterrock at 8:54 AM on February 17, 2022 [3 favorites]
No, but I can easily find all manner of sources written and data collected before the pandemic that points them being a serious contributing factor. Pedestrian deaths had been on a decades long decline up until around 2010 or so, and it doesn't take a brain genius to correlate that with the introduction of the iPhone and widespread adoption of smartphones, or to watch people drive by you for about 30 seconds to see how many of them aren't even looking at the road.
Yes, Smartphone Use Is Probably Behind the Spike in Driving Deaths. So Why Isn’t More Being Done to Curb It?
In its reassessment of data from 2015, the NSC estimated that cellphone usage was involved in 26 percent of all traffic accidents. A study released this year by Cambridge Mobile Telematics, a company that creates apps to monitor driving and smartphone usage for insurance purposes, similarly found that approximately a quarter of drivers involved in crashes were using their phones during or in the minute before the accidents occurred. As NSC spokesperson Maureen Vogel told Slate, “Based on research the council has done on the underreporting of distracted-driving crashes, we believe the number of fatal crashes that actually occur in the U.S. every year due to distraction could be double what is recorded in federal data.”
Evaluation of smartphone interactions on drivers’ brain function and vehicle control in an immersive simulated environment
Our results highlight a significant increase in bilateral prefrontal and parietal cortical activity that occurs in response to increasingly greater levels of smartphone distraction that, in turn, predicts changes in common indices of vehicle control.
Pedestrian Traffic Fatalities by State - 2019 Preliminary Data
During the 10-year period from 2009 to 2018, the number of pedestrian fatalities increased by 53% (from 4,109 deaths in 2009 to 6,283 deaths in 2018); by comparison, the combined number of all other traffic deaths increased by 2%. Along with the increase in the number of pedestrian fatalities, pedestrian deaths as a percentage of total motor vehicle crash deaths increased from 12% in 2009 to 17% in 2018. The last time pedestrians accounted for 17% of total U.S. traffic deaths was over 35 years ago, in 1982.
Earlier studies by the Governors Highway Safety Association (GHSA), based on preliminary data reported by State Highway Safety Offices (SHSOs), were the first to predict recent increases in
pedestrian fatalities. The current study, based on preliminary data from all 50 states and the District of Columbia (D.C.), found that the alarming rise in pedestrian deaths observed in both 2015 and 2016 resumed in 2018 and continued in 2019.
...
Regarding cellphone use, which can be a significant source of distraction for all road users, the reported number of smartphones in active use in the U.S. increased by 4% from 2017 to 2018, and by more than 400% from 2009 to 2018. The amount of wireless data usage in the U.S. increased by 82% from 2017 to 2018, and by more than 7,000% from 2009 to 2018. Analysis of data from the National Electronic Injury Surveillance database shows the number of cellphone-related emergency department visits is increasing in parallel with the prevalence of cellphone use in the U.S. Many of these injuries are sustained while the user is engaged in text messaging rather than conventional telephone conversation, and this trend appears to have contributed to a sharper increase in the number of incidents in recent years.
Pedestrian Deaths in 2019 Were Highest in 30 Years, Report Says
Since 2009, pedestrian fatalities have consistently grown year over year after a nearly steady decrease since 1988. A decade ago, in 2009, annual deaths were at 4109. Through 2018, the most recent year with complete data, there has been a 53 percent increase in pedestrian deaths. The GHSA's calculated total of 6590 deaths would mean that there would have been a 60 percent increase from 2009 through the end of 2019.
That being said, the Federal Highway Administration reported that motor vehicle travel increased 0.8 percent in the first half of 2019 as compared to the same period in 2018.
The association cites a number of possible reasons for the continuing increase in deaths, including the growing popularity of light trucks and SUVs, warmer weather, and an increase in cellphone use while driving. The study notes that in 2009, 48 percent of new vehicle sales were light trucks (which includes SUVs), and in 2018, that number had risen to 69 percent. It also says pedestrians who are struck by a large SUV are twice as likely to die as those struck by a car.
Clearly there are a lot of contributing factors, and our brains might have been able to mitigate a lot of them without throwing distracted driving into the mix, but once you add in that element you get what we have today, which are the deadliest road conditions for the most vulnerable users in a long, long time.
posted by Dokterrock at 8:54 AM on February 17, 2022 [3 favorites]
Having been driving all through the pandemic as an essential worker, I can't say I've noticed drivers being notably worse than any other time, at least here in my corner of the world, on the usual paths I take. Nor have I noticed as a pedestrian and bike rider. However, I literally live a stone's throw from I 10 here in western L.A. where I've always tended to sleep with the windows open, and my imperfect anecdotal observation is that late night racing is way up. Both on freeway and street. I'd venture to guess these particular drivers skew young and male, and I have no idea what accident rates are attributable to this lot, but it seems the late night racing crowd has gotten quite bold in the last year and a half.
posted by 2N2222 at 9:35 AM on February 17, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by 2N2222 at 9:35 AM on February 17, 2022 [3 favorites]
Yes, I would like to clarify on my previous comment that while I think delivery in general and food delivery in particular likely play a role, the blame for that should lie squarely at the feet of the businesses that treat vast fleets of contractor drivers in private cars as interchangeable cogs in their logistics machine, graded only on how many deliveries they make and how fast they make them.
posted by Nothing at 10:13 AM on February 17, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by Nothing at 10:13 AM on February 17, 2022 [5 favorites]
Almost nobody speeds in Switzerland (IME), because the fines for doing so are gigantic and for them, the speed limit is exactly that -- a limit. Not a "soft cap" -- that's another thing that could change.
In traffic design a fundamental concept is "The 85th percentile speed". The speed that most people are going to drive on that road regardless of the posted limit. Lowering the speed limit on a given stretch of road does almost nothing to influence how fast people will actually drive on it.
In the US speed limits are almost always set below the 85th percentile speed for that road so that police/state patrol will have plenty of people they canlevy a road tax give a fine. So police more or less collect taxes from drivers at their discretion. I'm sure can see plenty of problems stemming from that. Speed enforcement in the US is almost never about road safety, the data shows that posted limits just don't affect safety in a positive way. When these things get discussed at the city and state level no one really ever asks about safety. It's always talked about in terms of revenue generation.
Traffic safety tends to be better in countries who's governments actually attempt to improve it.
posted by VTX at 10:50 AM on February 17, 2022 [8 favorites]
In traffic design a fundamental concept is "The 85th percentile speed". The speed that most people are going to drive on that road regardless of the posted limit. Lowering the speed limit on a given stretch of road does almost nothing to influence how fast people will actually drive on it.
In the US speed limits are almost always set below the 85th percentile speed for that road so that police/state patrol will have plenty of people they can
Traffic safety tends to be better in countries who's governments actually attempt to improve it.
posted by VTX at 10:50 AM on February 17, 2022 [8 favorites]
people be arseholes and people out and about in a pandemic are more likely to be arseholes so, more arseholes = more accidents.
You're referring to the people who are delivering you the food you ordered, presumably? Give me a break.
Assuming facts not in evidence. I wasn't even thinking of delivery drivers, just that people who are arseholes are more likely to be saying 'fuck you, I want my freedum' and ignoring stay-at-home directions.
posted by dg at 12:18 PM on February 17, 2022
You're referring to the people who are delivering you the food you ordered, presumably? Give me a break.
Assuming facts not in evidence. I wasn't even thinking of delivery drivers, just that people who are arseholes are more likely to be saying 'fuck you, I want my freedum' and ignoring stay-at-home directions.
posted by dg at 12:18 PM on February 17, 2022
@anyportmanteau:
I know the site culture isn't amenable to this here, generally, but I'd encourage you to concealed carry if you can do so in your state. There was a recent case in Texas where a man tried to drive a pair of cyclists off the road. One of the two gunned him down, and was not charged, as it was a clear matter of self defense. No one has the right to threaten your life for the sake of their political or social emotions, and it is absolutely your right by contrast to use force in rejecting such violent gestures.
posted by constantinescharity at 12:50 PM on February 17, 2022
I know the site culture isn't amenable to this here, generally, but I'd encourage you to concealed carry if you can do so in your state. There was a recent case in Texas where a man tried to drive a pair of cyclists off the road. One of the two gunned him down, and was not charged, as it was a clear matter of self defense. No one has the right to threaten your life for the sake of their political or social emotions, and it is absolutely your right by contrast to use force in rejecting such violent gestures.
posted by constantinescharity at 12:50 PM on February 17, 2022
Another factor I don't see mentioned in the comments yet.
posted by Nosmot at 1:48 PM on February 17, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Nosmot at 1:48 PM on February 17, 2022 [1 favorite]
I'm in Ontario, Canada, so any kind of carry is going to get me in a lot of trouble.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 2:40 PM on February 17, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 2:40 PM on February 17, 2022 [2 favorites]
Bakersfield is number two, drinking, texting, speeding, street racing, unhomed people, and old people 80-90 just trying to cross the street. Soon, silent electric cars will up these numbers. No one uses turn signals, the written test for driving is, basically, do you know how to turn on the key? You can park right up to a stop sign.
Utah's test is very different, nit picky in some ways, but you cannot park within 30 feet of a stop sign in Utah.
posted by Oyéah at 3:34 PM on February 17, 2022 [1 favorite]
Utah's test is very different, nit picky in some ways, but you cannot park within 30 feet of a stop sign in Utah.
posted by Oyéah at 3:34 PM on February 17, 2022 [1 favorite]
20 years ago, auto makers sold small cars
As little as 5 years ago! We recently got a new car, and for small (technically "subcompact") car in Australia we really only have a "choice" between the Kia Rio, the Mazda 2, and the Toyota Yaris.
We tried them all and they were all hot garbage, and it almost felt like they were made that way on purpose. We also decided we wanted a hybrid. So the smallest that ended up being fit for purpose was the Corolla Hybrid.
Prior to that we had a 2015 Renault Clio, which was slightly smaller and is no longer in production. Prior to the Clio we had a 2011 Ford Fiesta, which was smaller again and also no longer in production. (The Yaris Hybrid was almost exactly the same price as the Corolla for less room, less features, less comfort, and less performance. The Ford Focus is basically a joke car probably only manufactured out of habit and has no hybrid option in Australia.)
Prior to the Fiesta we walked everywhere, because we could afford to live in the inner-city.
posted by turbid dahlia at 3:54 PM on February 17, 2022 [3 favorites]
As little as 5 years ago! We recently got a new car, and for small (technically "subcompact") car in Australia we really only have a "choice" between the Kia Rio, the Mazda 2, and the Toyota Yaris.
We tried them all and they were all hot garbage, and it almost felt like they were made that way on purpose. We also decided we wanted a hybrid. So the smallest that ended up being fit for purpose was the Corolla Hybrid.
Prior to that we had a 2015 Renault Clio, which was slightly smaller and is no longer in production. Prior to the Clio we had a 2011 Ford Fiesta, which was smaller again and also no longer in production. (The Yaris Hybrid was almost exactly the same price as the Corolla for less room, less features, less comfort, and less performance. The Ford Focus is basically a joke car probably only manufactured out of habit and has no hybrid option in Australia.)
Prior to the Fiesta we walked everywhere, because we could afford to live in the inner-city.
posted by turbid dahlia at 3:54 PM on February 17, 2022 [3 favorites]
As little as 5 years ago! We recently got a new car, and for small (technically "subcompact") car in Australia we really only have a "choice" between the Kia Rio, the Mazda 2, and the Toyota Yaris.
We tried them all and they were all hot garbage, and it almost felt like they were made that way on purpose.
It is on purpose. But it's not a bad thing. They're bottom of the barrel models, built to a price.
Still, there is great demand for sub compacts, that is, a demand for cheap and small cars, that manufacturers are eager to step away from because the profit margins are too thin. A marginally larger vehicle with a couple more baubles increases the profit margin in larger proportion than the actual manufacturing cost. I actually like, tiny, cheap cars, but they've become especially rare here in the US.
Yes, I would like to clarify on my previous comment that while I think delivery in general and food delivery in particular likely play a role, the blame for that should lie squarely at the feet of the businesses that treat vast fleets of contractor drivers in private cars as interchangeable cogs in their logistics machine, graded only on how many deliveries they make and how fast they make them.
Please.
If you find solace placing blame on delivery services, the actual drivers can't be somehow exempt. They clearly participate. For actual money, those bastards. And don't forget the people using the services, trying to avoid going out and foraging for themselves during the pandemic. Fuck them, too.
Look, in typical fashion, we all want desperately to blame all our favorite whipping boys, regardless of the existence, or lack thereof, of any evidence at all. This is one of those weird, goofy threads where few are willing to accept that it's a perplexing problem with some really elusive answers. So we're willing to plug in anything that affirms our prior beliefs.
posted by 2N2222 at 6:08 PM on February 17, 2022 [1 favorite]
We tried them all and they were all hot garbage, and it almost felt like they were made that way on purpose.
It is on purpose. But it's not a bad thing. They're bottom of the barrel models, built to a price.
Still, there is great demand for sub compacts, that is, a demand for cheap and small cars, that manufacturers are eager to step away from because the profit margins are too thin. A marginally larger vehicle with a couple more baubles increases the profit margin in larger proportion than the actual manufacturing cost. I actually like, tiny, cheap cars, but they've become especially rare here in the US.
Yes, I would like to clarify on my previous comment that while I think delivery in general and food delivery in particular likely play a role, the blame for that should lie squarely at the feet of the businesses that treat vast fleets of contractor drivers in private cars as interchangeable cogs in their logistics machine, graded only on how many deliveries they make and how fast they make them.
Please.
If you find solace placing blame on delivery services, the actual drivers can't be somehow exempt. They clearly participate. For actual money, those bastards. And don't forget the people using the services, trying to avoid going out and foraging for themselves during the pandemic. Fuck them, too.
Look, in typical fashion, we all want desperately to blame all our favorite whipping boys, regardless of the existence, or lack thereof, of any evidence at all. This is one of those weird, goofy threads where few are willing to accept that it's a perplexing problem with some really elusive answers. So we're willing to plug in anything that affirms our prior beliefs.
posted by 2N2222 at 6:08 PM on February 17, 2022 [1 favorite]
Hey turbid dahlia, I'm in Australia too... some car nerdery to follow.
The Focus mostly misunderstood, it's not a joke car! Major Australian car review sites would say the current Ford Focus (2019 onwards) is the best small car Ford has ever produced. One thing holding it back is the fact that it's designed and manufactured in Europe for a European audience - and both the Focus and Fiesta see quite decent sales there - but it can't compete against small cars built in Asia due to the cost differential. Freight and taxes alone would add $1000 to $2000 to the car due to its transit from Europe, never mind the labor costs, so either customers have to accept lesser features on a European import, or the dealer accepts a lower margin and thus isn't incentivized to market and sell the vehicle. Usually a combination of both... so sales are mostly confined to the tiny segment of buyers who are already familiar with and specifically like the driving dynamics of the Focus. The torque vectoring technology they have, which applies slight braking to the inside wheel on tight turns, is really quite astounding. Ordinarily you feel the car "fighting" the turn as the laws of physics resists you, with torque vectoring it feels like the car just naturally slips into the turn without resistance. (the other elephant in the room holding it back is the absolute debacle which was the DPS transmission issue on the 3rd Gen Focus...)
As for the Fiesta... it's been pretty much replaced by the Puma. The Asia built Fiesta (6th Gen, 2009) was discontinued in 2016, in fact, discontinued worldwide, and the 7th Gen was only built and sold in Europe. The 7th Gen Fiesta spawned a crossover, the Puma, also built in Europe and sold in Australia, which is by some accounts the best in segment - Drive (the Australian auto magazine) named it the best light SUV of 2021. My previous Fiesta averaged 6.7L per 100km on my commute, and the Puma averages an astounding 6.3L per 100km on the same route. Apparently it's due to the new cylinder deactivation technology on the engine which allows it to run on just 2 cylinders most of the time. Basically the logic is (I think Ford might even be on the record saying this back in 2018) that they were exiting the car business because sales volumes were declining... most buyers are thinking they now get great fuel economy on crossovers, so why bother with a subcompact? Leading to this exact problem, increased pedestrian fatalities.
Anyway, enough car nerdery. My point was that in a competitive landscape, it seems like the natural order of things is that everyone rationally realises they can't compete with Toyota to build the "white goods" of cars, the Corolla - cheap, cheerful, reliable, comfortable - so rather than compete with them and losing, these cars all have to find their own niche audiences, and hope Toyota doesn't come and eat their lunch...
posted by xdvesper at 6:32 PM on February 17, 2022 [4 favorites]
The Focus mostly misunderstood, it's not a joke car! Major Australian car review sites would say the current Ford Focus (2019 onwards) is the best small car Ford has ever produced. One thing holding it back is the fact that it's designed and manufactured in Europe for a European audience - and both the Focus and Fiesta see quite decent sales there - but it can't compete against small cars built in Asia due to the cost differential. Freight and taxes alone would add $1000 to $2000 to the car due to its transit from Europe, never mind the labor costs, so either customers have to accept lesser features on a European import, or the dealer accepts a lower margin and thus isn't incentivized to market and sell the vehicle. Usually a combination of both... so sales are mostly confined to the tiny segment of buyers who are already familiar with and specifically like the driving dynamics of the Focus. The torque vectoring technology they have, which applies slight braking to the inside wheel on tight turns, is really quite astounding. Ordinarily you feel the car "fighting" the turn as the laws of physics resists you, with torque vectoring it feels like the car just naturally slips into the turn without resistance. (the other elephant in the room holding it back is the absolute debacle which was the DPS transmission issue on the 3rd Gen Focus...)
As for the Fiesta... it's been pretty much replaced by the Puma. The Asia built Fiesta (6th Gen, 2009) was discontinued in 2016, in fact, discontinued worldwide, and the 7th Gen was only built and sold in Europe. The 7th Gen Fiesta spawned a crossover, the Puma, also built in Europe and sold in Australia, which is by some accounts the best in segment - Drive (the Australian auto magazine) named it the best light SUV of 2021. My previous Fiesta averaged 6.7L per 100km on my commute, and the Puma averages an astounding 6.3L per 100km on the same route. Apparently it's due to the new cylinder deactivation technology on the engine which allows it to run on just 2 cylinders most of the time. Basically the logic is (I think Ford might even be on the record saying this back in 2018) that they were exiting the car business because sales volumes were declining... most buyers are thinking they now get great fuel economy on crossovers, so why bother with a subcompact? Leading to this exact problem, increased pedestrian fatalities.
Anyway, enough car nerdery. My point was that in a competitive landscape, it seems like the natural order of things is that everyone rationally realises they can't compete with Toyota to build the "white goods" of cars, the Corolla - cheap, cheerful, reliable, comfortable - so rather than compete with them and losing, these cars all have to find their own niche audiences, and hope Toyota doesn't come and eat their lunch...
posted by xdvesper at 6:32 PM on February 17, 2022 [4 favorites]
Auto makers chase demand. If they're making more trucks, it's because more people want to buy trucks.
Companies will change their practices to comply with regulations (so long as doing so is less costly than not) and will otherwise chase profits. You can get auto makers to make more smaller cars by influencing demand, regulating the supply, or both.
I recently went on vacation and specifically reserved a mid-sized sedan. None were available when we arrived so we got a free "upgrade" to a smallish SUV. The customer service rep was astounded when I told him flatly that it was NOT an upgrade. It was pretty much the only option so, whatever, but it was annoying. I greatly prefer smaller cars over large sedans and SUVs but I know I'm in a minority. Even if sedans are objectively better, harumph!
posted by VTX at 6:57 PM on February 17, 2022 [3 favorites]
Companies will change their practices to comply with regulations (so long as doing so is less costly than not) and will otherwise chase profits. You can get auto makers to make more smaller cars by influencing demand, regulating the supply, or both.
I recently went on vacation and specifically reserved a mid-sized sedan. None were available when we arrived so we got a free "upgrade" to a smallish SUV. The customer service rep was astounded when I told him flatly that it was NOT an upgrade. It was pretty much the only option so, whatever, but it was annoying. I greatly prefer smaller cars over large sedans and SUVs but I know I'm in a minority. Even if sedans are objectively better, harumph!
posted by VTX at 6:57 PM on February 17, 2022 [3 favorites]
One thing I've noticed with my current car (well SUV), damn the A-Pilar is big, pedestrians can disappear in that blind spot. And I know to try to keep an eye that what could be behind this, but it's really easy this miss pedestrians in there. And it would seems it's a known thing with SUVs, due to rollover they make those bigger to protect the occupants of the car, but that becomes dangerous for pedestrians.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 7:26 PM on February 17, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by WaterAndPixels at 7:26 PM on February 17, 2022 [1 favorite]
Massive A-pillars are not just a problem with SUVs, nor are they so big just for rollover protection - the rise of airbags in A-pillars also contributes to the size. It's not just the A-pillars either - B, C and D pillars are also much much bigger than they used to be and B-pillars are also expected to cope better with seat belt forces as well as rollovers and airbags. Add to this the current fashion for high waistlines on cars and the amount of general visibility out of modern cars is actually quite appalling.
I notice the difference when I drive my 'Sunday car' that was build in 1961 - the increase in visibility all around is stark. Of course, if I hit anything, I'll end up with a face full of steel dashboard and a rollover would see me squashed like a bug but, hey, at least I'll be able to see it coming!
posted by dg at 9:56 PM on February 17, 2022 [4 favorites]
I notice the difference when I drive my 'Sunday car' that was build in 1961 - the increase in visibility all around is stark. Of course, if I hit anything, I'll end up with a face full of steel dashboard and a rollover would see me squashed like a bug but, hey, at least I'll be able to see it coming!
posted by dg at 9:56 PM on February 17, 2022 [4 favorites]
Vehicles are getting too damn big.
Another factor with car size is that I find the higher up I am in a vehicle, the easier it is to speed. When I drove an old Corolla hatchback, 45mph felt like Warp 2 because I was so close to the ground. I had occasion to drive a friend's F250 back to his country home in those years, and imagine my surprise when I looked down to see I was going 90mph on a country road.
It just didn't feel like I was going fast at all - the big engine and tall seat made 90 feel like half the speed.
posted by rocketman at 5:57 AM on February 18, 2022 [6 favorites]
Another factor with car size is that I find the higher up I am in a vehicle, the easier it is to speed. When I drove an old Corolla hatchback, 45mph felt like Warp 2 because I was so close to the ground. I had occasion to drive a friend's F250 back to his country home in those years, and imagine my surprise when I looked down to see I was going 90mph on a country road.
It just didn't feel like I was going fast at all - the big engine and tall seat made 90 feel like half the speed.
posted by rocketman at 5:57 AM on February 18, 2022 [6 favorites]
I was out on the road today. In front of me: A man was rolling down the street in his wheelchair: there were many parked cars and no ramp until further up the road. The car in front of me zooms past him with centimeters to spare. I slow to a near stop and leave ample space to not make him nervous about a vehicle behind him. Driver behind me? Either was completely oblivious to the situation (not good) but actually should have clearly seen the guy. Since it's a narrow road and he can't pass me, he starts flashing his lights and honking non stop. Man in wheelchair is now pushing hard to try to get to the next available ramp, desperate to simply not get run over.
I thought about this thread. People are assholes.
posted by UN at 8:21 AM on February 18, 2022 [5 favorites]
I thought about this thread. People are assholes.
posted by UN at 8:21 AM on February 18, 2022 [5 favorites]
Auto makers chase demand. If they're making more trucks, it's because more people want to buy trucks.
But it isn't like the demand exists in a vacuum. Makers have spent hundreds of millions of advertising and design dollars over years convincing buyers to buy SUVs and trucks to the point that even Porsche FFS is a truck company. Imagine the landscape if that money was spent on station wagons or minivans. Americans used to make bad ass station wagons. But trucks let suburban dad's pretend to be cowboys and so here we are.
posted by Mitheral at 12:01 PM on February 18, 2022 [8 favorites]
But it isn't like the demand exists in a vacuum. Makers have spent hundreds of millions of advertising and design dollars over years convincing buyers to buy SUVs and trucks to the point that even Porsche FFS is a truck company. Imagine the landscape if that money was spent on station wagons or minivans. Americans used to make bad ass station wagons. But trucks let suburban dad's pretend to be cowboys and so here we are.
posted by Mitheral at 12:01 PM on February 18, 2022 [8 favorites]
I know the site culture isn't amenable to this here, generally, but I'd encourage you to concealed carry if you can do so in your state.
I have nothing against people carrying if they need to, but saving my life with a gun is so far down my list of likely outcomes compared to saving a life with the other things I seldom carry on a bike ride such as an AED or First Aid kit or epipen or a spare water bottle full of electrolyte beverage that it'd never occur to me.
posted by BrotherCaine at 12:09 PM on February 18, 2022 [4 favorites]
I have nothing against people carrying if they need to, but saving my life with a gun is so far down my list of likely outcomes compared to saving a life with the other things I seldom carry on a bike ride such as an AED or First Aid kit or epipen or a spare water bottle full of electrolyte beverage that it'd never occur to me.
posted by BrotherCaine at 12:09 PM on February 18, 2022 [4 favorites]
I accidentally began a social experiment two years ago when I sold my Prius and bought a 2018 Honda Clarity. The Clarity is a plug-in hybrid, so it's even greenie-weenie-er than the Prius was. Thing is, though, the Clarity is uncommon and unless you look real hard at it, it looks like an Accord.
I got bullied (tailgated, rolled coal on, cut off, flipped off) by big pickups and SUVs on the regular in the Prius. It almost never happens in the Clarity, and my driving habits haven't changed.
I think there is a HUGE social/political component to antisocial driving that's hard to quantify but very real.
posted by workerant at 12:23 PM on February 18, 2022 [14 favorites]
I got bullied (tailgated, rolled coal on, cut off, flipped off) by big pickups and SUVs on the regular in the Prius. It almost never happens in the Clarity, and my driving habits haven't changed.
I think there is a HUGE social/political component to antisocial driving that's hard to quantify but very real.
posted by workerant at 12:23 PM on February 18, 2022 [14 favorites]
Auto makers chase demand.
Auto makers chase profit, in a market that’s a long way from free. Along with the advertising mitheral describes there’s the giant regulatory bezzle of "light trucks".
posted by clew at 12:41 PM on February 18, 2022 [7 favorites]
Auto makers chase profit, in a market that’s a long way from free. Along with the advertising mitheral describes there’s the giant regulatory bezzle of "light trucks".
posted by clew at 12:41 PM on February 18, 2022 [7 favorites]
Definitely. My point is just that corporations are gonna corporation. Government is supposed to be the institution with the hands on the reins to keep them under control. I'm not going to blame corporations for being shitty, that's their whole deal (with rare exception).
posted by VTX at 8:53 PM on February 19, 2022
posted by VTX at 8:53 PM on February 19, 2022
I think we have to hold corporations/companies responsible for what they do, and individuals, and the government. Any two of those can block the third.
posted by clew at 10:46 PM on February 19, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by clew at 10:46 PM on February 19, 2022 [4 favorites]
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Here's the best selling truck in America, and here's the best selling car in America. Which one would you rather be hit by? I suspect most would choose the one that's not designed to resemble a fucking brick wall. Which one can the driver see a toddler standing in front of it over the hood?
And this trend will only get worse; 20% of new auto sales are cars, but vehicles stay on the road a lot longer than that; if you assume as a rough measure that vehicles last 10 years on average, then we've only dropped to 36% cars on the road from the 2000s plateau of 48% or so. We're only halfway to a 20% car fleet, assuming all else equal, and assuming the car share doesn't dip any further.
As a side note, this is also why fleet fuel efficiency is reducing, even though the law requires auto makers to sell more efficient vehicles every year. The law actually sets out two targets for fleet fuel efficiency, one for cars and one for light duty trucks. 20 years ago, auto makers sold small cars, big cars and trucks and the bigger the vehicle, the less fuel efficient they are. Now, auto makers also sell small cars, big cars and trucks, but big cars are now "crossovers" which are technically SUVs, which are trucks, so the car fuel efficiency is now based just on small cars, and the truck fuel efficiency is based on big cars and trucks, so both measures have gone down via this reclassification even though the individual vehicles haven't necessarily gotten any more efficient.
(The reason for the different fuel efficiency standards -- and different safety standards as well -- are because of the stupid thought that trucks are needed by businesses. For one, obviously, businesses don't buy 80% of the vehicle fleet, nor did they buy 50% in the 2000s. And for another, I don't feel better about climate change or road deaths because they're business climate change and business road deaths.)
posted by Superilla at 1:44 PM on February 16, 2022 [125 favorites]