Old World Designer Notes
April 8, 2022 12:43 PM Subscribe
The problem with every-unit-moves (EUM) in 4X games is that it only creates the illusion of tactical and strategic decision making. (I am taking the prerogative to coin an acronym for this to draw attention to the fact that employing EUM is an intentional design choice, just like using one-unit-per-tile is a choice.) Each turn, the player is evaluating the most effective single move for each of their units, which is often a very straightforward and often even boring decision, without any tradeoffs, with no reason to NOT take an action.
Game designer Soren Johnson (previously) on the choices that went into his latest game, Old World:
Game designer Soren Johnson (previously) on the choices that went into his latest game, Old World:
I keep forgetting this game exists. Hope the money hat was worth it, Soren.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 2:07 PM on April 8, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 2:07 PM on April 8, 2022 [2 favorites]
I had to look this up; this game was released in July 2021 and thoroughly reviewed (mostly positively). But it's an Epic exclusive, so Steam is listening it as "releases Q2 2022". I've heard absolutely no buzz about the game at all despite being a fan of the genre. There is some modest discussion of it on CivFanatics.
I haven't read the design notes yet but the quote in the post spoke to me. Mostly because of Crusader Kings, a game series that has some things in common with the Civ-style 4X games. Only there's not really units to move for most of the game and it's really unclear moment to moment what you should actually be doing. I finally figured it out, but there's something to be said for the structure of a turn based game.
posted by Nelson at 2:32 PM on April 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
I haven't read the design notes yet but the quote in the post spoke to me. Mostly because of Crusader Kings, a game series that has some things in common with the Civ-style 4X games. Only there's not really units to move for most of the game and it's really unclear moment to moment what you should actually be doing. I finally figured it out, but there's something to be said for the structure of a turn based game.
posted by Nelson at 2:32 PM on April 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
The Three Moves Ahead podcast devoted an episode to it. They made it sound really interesting, and if I remember correctly, they talked very positively about it in their recap episode for last year.
It's on my list of games to get one day, it sounds right up my alley, a Civ-style game by the designer of my favorite iteration of the Civ series, about a period of history that fascinates me, and it mixes some Crusader Kings elements into the 4X soup.
posted by Kattullus at 2:39 PM on April 8, 2022
It's on my list of games to get one day, it sounds right up my alley, a Civ-style game by the designer of my favorite iteration of the Civ series, about a period of history that fascinates me, and it mixes some Crusader Kings elements into the 4X soup.
posted by Kattullus at 2:39 PM on April 8, 2022
Old World is a pretty amazing game, and it is one of the few times I've really felt excited about the turn-based 4X genre since... ~Civ4 or so. From a design standpoint it actually moves the genre forward in interesting new ways (as explained above by Soren), and everything about it is just high quality. The music is amazing, the art & portraits are great, the UX is great, and the AI is actually competent for once. From codebase to writing to sound design, the game is just a first-rate bundle of creation.
I worry though that the game won't receive the commercial success that it deserves. The name is a bit bland, the Epic release is a bit limiting, and the freshness of its design could turn off some people. I also worry that the designer might be a little too smart? The game is very complex & can be a real brain-burner at times. The game injects some juice into the usual 4X formula by having characters and relations be on equivalent footing with the buildings & math & exponential growth, but at the same time it has a bit of a Euro vibe where many games will feel somewhat-samey, e.g. get ~10 cities, build some wonders, get some victory points, maybe do a little war against the other civs. The game tries to inject drama through characters & RPG choices, but the smart play (at least to me) often seems to be the boring & reliable play. Maybe that's just my own fault though for having too much NPC energy.
Ok, now for the anecdotes:
I start a new game, and on turn 5 my (married) queen gets propositioned by a potential advisor. Usually I would say "no" since I enjoy a low-drama life-style, but this guy has *absolutely amazing* stats. Literally 10/10 in the Civics stat, which in the early game can mean tripling your income for that important resource. So I go ahead with the affair & for a few turns enjoy amazing Civics income. But my husband gets miffed & starts plotting, and by turn 12 he has murdered my 10/10 FWB and then ran off into the wilderness himself. It's a bit different start to a game than you usually get in Civ!
My 50 year old hero-king with amazing stats and decades of war experience comes home, gets stabbed to death by his reedy, 13 year old kid on the steps of the palace.
My sister, who is insane, was taken out of the line of succession in favor of me, who is wildly qualified for the job & will lead our country into a new Golden Age. The day after my coronation she stabs me to death on the steps of the palace.
Lot of stabbing.
In conclusion, I hope Old World is the start of a whole branch of 4X design, rather than just a weird, evolutionary one-off.
posted by Balna Watya at 2:49 PM on April 8, 2022 [11 favorites]
I worry though that the game won't receive the commercial success that it deserves. The name is a bit bland, the Epic release is a bit limiting, and the freshness of its design could turn off some people. I also worry that the designer might be a little too smart? The game is very complex & can be a real brain-burner at times. The game injects some juice into the usual 4X formula by having characters and relations be on equivalent footing with the buildings & math & exponential growth, but at the same time it has a bit of a Euro vibe where many games will feel somewhat-samey, e.g. get ~10 cities, build some wonders, get some victory points, maybe do a little war against the other civs. The game tries to inject drama through characters & RPG choices, but the smart play (at least to me) often seems to be the boring & reliable play. Maybe that's just my own fault though for having too much NPC energy.
Ok, now for the anecdotes:
I start a new game, and on turn 5 my (married) queen gets propositioned by a potential advisor. Usually I would say "no" since I enjoy a low-drama life-style, but this guy has *absolutely amazing* stats. Literally 10/10 in the Civics stat, which in the early game can mean tripling your income for that important resource. So I go ahead with the affair & for a few turns enjoy amazing Civics income. But my husband gets miffed & starts plotting, and by turn 12 he has murdered my 10/10 FWB and then ran off into the wilderness himself. It's a bit different start to a game than you usually get in Civ!
My 50 year old hero-king with amazing stats and decades of war experience comes home, gets stabbed to death by his reedy, 13 year old kid on the steps of the palace.
My sister, who is insane, was taken out of the line of succession in favor of me, who is wildly qualified for the job & will lead our country into a new Golden Age. The day after my coronation she stabs me to death on the steps of the palace.
Lot of stabbing.
In conclusion, I hope Old World is the start of a whole branch of 4X design, rather than just a weird, evolutionary one-off.
posted by Balna Watya at 2:49 PM on April 8, 2022 [11 favorites]
In Civilization, there is never a reason not to build another mine or not to take another shot with an archer.
This is technically untrue re workers in Civ 6, now that they have limited build actions - which is a change I really appreciated! Very interested in this game.
posted by showbiz_liz at 2:49 PM on April 8, 2022
This is technically untrue re workers in Civ 6, now that they have limited build actions - which is a change I really appreciated! Very interested in this game.
posted by showbiz_liz at 2:49 PM on April 8, 2022
Soren seems like a really smart person and I like reading the notes! I don't play 4X, but I'd love to see what he has to say about the mechanics of tactical combat games.
posted by Sterros at 2:54 PM on April 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Sterros at 2:54 PM on April 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
Only there's not really units to move for most of the game and it's really unclear moment to moment what you should actually be doing. I finally figured it out, but there's something to be said for the structure of a turn based game.
I think it's because people expect CK3 to be Grand Strategy but it's actually a story generator with the strategy part sidelined pretty hard. But that's what keeps it so engrossing. Civ you get to a point where you're basically invincible then clean up the world. Past the mid game it's so boring because one is literally going through the motions. That's so not even possible in a CK game.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 3:07 PM on April 8, 2022
I think it's because people expect CK3 to be Grand Strategy but it's actually a story generator with the strategy part sidelined pretty hard. But that's what keeps it so engrossing. Civ you get to a point where you're basically invincible then clean up the world. Past the mid game it's so boring because one is literally going through the motions. That's so not even possible in a CK game.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 3:07 PM on April 8, 2022
Two things:
First, 1UPT is stupid. The better solution and one that makes sense from a mechanics and real-life perspective, would be a low cap on tile occupation. Say, like three.
Second, I went high school with Soren. He was a senior when I was a freshman, and he tried to get me removed from the varsity quiz bowl squad (to pad his Stanford resume, I think). He was unsuccessful but I still carry that grudge. Suck it, Soren.
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 3:42 PM on April 8, 2022 [16 favorites]
First, 1UPT is stupid. The better solution and one that makes sense from a mechanics and real-life perspective, would be a low cap on tile occupation. Say, like three.
Second, I went high school with Soren. He was a senior when I was a freshman, and he tried to get me removed from the varsity quiz bowl squad (to pad his Stanford resume, I think). He was unsuccessful but I still carry that grudge. Suck it, Soren.
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 3:42 PM on April 8, 2022 [16 favorites]
First, 1UPT is stupid. The better solution and one that makes sense from a mechanics and real-life perspective, would be a low cap on tile occupation. Say, like three.
Which is mechanically identical to one unit per tile on smaller tiles. (in the linked figure, instead of three unit limits in the thick-outline hex, you use the smaller hexes, which permits one whole unit in the light hex and six hexes with 1/3 units each, i.e. two more units in the dark hexes) And the size of tiles is already arbitrary.
posted by Superilla at 4:51 PM on April 8, 2022
Which is mechanically identical to one unit per tile on smaller tiles. (in the linked figure, instead of three unit limits in the thick-outline hex, you use the smaller hexes, which permits one whole unit in the light hex and six hexes with 1/3 units each, i.e. two more units in the dark hexes) And the size of tiles is already arbitrary.
posted by Superilla at 4:51 PM on April 8, 2022
So he co-designed Civ 3, which was the first bad Civ, but then was lead on Civ 4, arguably the best entry in the series. It is a strange and beautiful world. (Credit where credit is do: Even the disappointing Civ 3 introduced a lot of valuable elements to the series that were maintained in later versions.)
I have Old World, didn't hate it but I didn't love it either. I do feel like I should dust it off and give it another chance some time. OTOH browsing through the notes, I'm noticing a similar feeling to that in game play: I don't think he's saying anything wrong but the things he thinks are boring don't necessarily match the weak points for me.
The one I agreed with most was about citizen placement on tiles during city control--not a great mechanic and why is it even there after six versions of Civ?
Which is mechanically identical to one unit per tile on smaller tiles
Not really. The variety of stacking combinations are important, as are control of hexes.
One example approach in old hex wargame design was to let players stack one 'support' (artillery, medics, etc.) on up to two 'main' (armor, infantry, etc.) units. The mix gave lots of options to tune attack and defense value on a single hex and play the "rock/paper/scissors game."
But it's also important to concentrate forces. Stacking means you could cover every hex (preventing players from penetrating your lines uncontested) but still have some area much strong than others.
Obviously you could try to achieve that effect differently with no stacking, bigger hexes, and bigger variety in unit strength, but it's not mechanically equivalent.
posted by mark k at 9:19 PM on April 8, 2022
I have Old World, didn't hate it but I didn't love it either. I do feel like I should dust it off and give it another chance some time. OTOH browsing through the notes, I'm noticing a similar feeling to that in game play: I don't think he's saying anything wrong but the things he thinks are boring don't necessarily match the weak points for me.
The one I agreed with most was about citizen placement on tiles during city control--not a great mechanic and why is it even there after six versions of Civ?
Which is mechanically identical to one unit per tile on smaller tiles
Not really. The variety of stacking combinations are important, as are control of hexes.
One example approach in old hex wargame design was to let players stack one 'support' (artillery, medics, etc.) on up to two 'main' (armor, infantry, etc.) units. The mix gave lots of options to tune attack and defense value on a single hex and play the "rock/paper/scissors game."
But it's also important to concentrate forces. Stacking means you could cover every hex (preventing players from penetrating your lines uncontested) but still have some area much strong than others.
Obviously you could try to achieve that effect differently with no stacking, bigger hexes, and bigger variety in unit strength, but it's not mechanically equivalent.
posted by mark k at 9:19 PM on April 8, 2022
Civ 4, arguably the best entry in the series
Baba Yetu.
Leonard Niomy.
No lies detected.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 7:49 AM on April 9, 2022 [4 favorites]
Baba Yetu.
Leonard Niomy.
No lies detected.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 7:49 AM on April 9, 2022 [4 favorites]
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This'll be fun to dig into, thanks!
posted by CrystalDave at 1:08 PM on April 8, 2022