State Senator Mallory McMorrow, Democrat of Michigan responds
April 20, 2022 9:56 AM Subscribe
State Senator Mallory McMorrow, Democrat of the Michigan State Senate responds to Senator Lana Theis.
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Good.
This "groomer" meme is going to have a body count soon.
posted by The Monster at the End of this Thread at 10:08 AM on April 20, 2022 [10 favorites]
This "groomer" meme is going to have a body count soon.
posted by The Monster at the End of this Thread at 10:08 AM on April 20, 2022 [10 favorites]
Wow. Thanks for sharing.
posted by Well I never at 10:11 AM on April 20, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by Well I never at 10:11 AM on April 20, 2022 [2 favorites]
She's going to get made fun of for this, and attacked even harder (Theis has already complained that McMorrow is trying to use this to fundraise), and told that this is why Democrats are losing. She knows that being called a groomer was Theis's way of telling someone, anyone, that Mallory McMorrow needs to be murdered. She knows that she's in an existential fight.
And she's going to keep saying it.
posted by Etrigan at 10:18 AM on April 20, 2022 [24 favorites]
And she's going to keep saying it.
posted by Etrigan at 10:18 AM on April 20, 2022 [24 favorites]
Maybe this became instantly viral by being a memorably great speech by an empassioned intelligent human being given in this moment in history.
posted by y2karl at 10:32 AM on April 20, 2022 [27 favorites]
posted by y2karl at 10:32 AM on April 20, 2022 [27 favorites]
part of the campaign is to keep their opponents on the back-foot playing defense on their half of the field
and it's working very well
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 10:39 AM on April 20, 2022 [4 favorites]
and it's working very well
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 10:39 AM on April 20, 2022 [4 favorites]
An excellent speech, delivered with fire that is all too rare in light of the threat of rising theocratic fascism.
Good on Senator McMorrow for making clear Senator Theis is not only a bad politician and bad person but also a bad christian, and yet outflanking Theis by giving her nothing to quote that isn't to her shame.
posted by Gelatin at 11:08 AM on April 20, 2022 [15 favorites]
Good on Senator McMorrow for making clear Senator Theis is not only a bad politician and bad person but also a bad christian, and yet outflanking Theis by giving her nothing to quote that isn't to her shame.
posted by Gelatin at 11:08 AM on April 20, 2022 [15 favorites]
I don't understand why the Democrats being labeled groomers and pedophiles aren't suing for slander.
Can MTG not be sued for saying someone "endorses pedophilia"?
posted by dobbs at 11:34 AM on April 20, 2022 [22 favorites]
Can MTG not be sued for saying someone "endorses pedophilia"?
posted by dobbs at 11:34 AM on April 20, 2022 [22 favorites]
Slow clap. Extremely fast clapping. Standing ovation. Chef's Kiss!
posted by rozcakj at 11:39 AM on April 20, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by rozcakj at 11:39 AM on April 20, 2022 [7 favorites]
I don't understand why the Democrats being labeled groomers and pedophiles aren't suing for slander.
The legal definition of defamation is sufficiently limited/specific that it would be hard to uphold such a claim in a court of law while remaining consistent with the current caselaw regarding the First Amendment.
To show defamation, you have to show that someone:
1. Published
2. A Statement as Fact
3. Which harms your reputation
4. And which is provably false
AND if you're a public figure, you have to show that the defendant knew it was false or showed reckless disregard as to its falsity.
So opinion pieces generally don't count, and generally political speech about other politicians doesn't count because the listeners know it's political speech and that most political speech is hyperbole. This is the major reason why Trump has yet to be held accountable for any of his bullshit: people know he's a bullshitter and therefore nobody could reasonably take anything he says as fact.
posted by suelac at 11:42 AM on April 20, 2022 [10 favorites]
The legal definition of defamation is sufficiently limited/specific that it would be hard to uphold such a claim in a court of law while remaining consistent with the current caselaw regarding the First Amendment.
To show defamation, you have to show that someone:
1. Published
2. A Statement as Fact
3. Which harms your reputation
4. And which is provably false
AND if you're a public figure, you have to show that the defendant knew it was false or showed reckless disregard as to its falsity.
So opinion pieces generally don't count, and generally political speech about other politicians doesn't count because the listeners know it's political speech and that most political speech is hyperbole. This is the major reason why Trump has yet to be held accountable for any of his bullshit: people know he's a bullshitter and therefore nobody could reasonably take anything he says as fact.
posted by suelac at 11:42 AM on April 20, 2022 [10 favorites]
GOP: We will do anything to end the scourge of grooming and pedophilia!
Also the GOP: If you want to marry a child, that should be legal.
I mean, yeah, they amended that. But the projection is exhausting with these people.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 11:48 AM on April 20, 2022 [25 favorites]
Also the GOP: If you want to marry a child, that should be legal.
I mean, yeah, they amended that. But the projection is exhausting with these people.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 11:48 AM on April 20, 2022 [25 favorites]
The legal definition of defamation is sufficiently limited/specific that it would be hard to uphold such a claim in a court of law while remaining consistent with the current caselaw regarding the First Amendment.
I don't know if there's anything comparable that applies to various state legislatures, but if memory serves me correctly, the Constitution's Speech and Debate clause also gives explicit immunity to anything members of Congress say on the floor, no matter how scurrilous or harmful the accusation.
posted by Gelatin at 12:02 PM on April 20, 2022 [2 favorites]
I don't know if there's anything comparable that applies to various state legislatures, but if memory serves me correctly, the Constitution's Speech and Debate clause also gives explicit immunity to anything members of Congress say on the floor, no matter how scurrilous or harmful the accusation.
posted by Gelatin at 12:02 PM on April 20, 2022 [2 favorites]
Should have ended the speech with, "Sen. Theis, bless your little heart."
Great speech. Sounds like she had a terrific mom and that she is/will be a terrific mom to her child.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 12:02 PM on April 20, 2022 [5 favorites]
Great speech. Sounds like she had a terrific mom and that she is/will be a terrific mom to her child.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 12:02 PM on April 20, 2022 [5 favorites]
This is wonderful. One thing that troubles me -- although I know it's probably only done for effect -- is that she addresses Theis directly, instead of addressing her colleagues or voters. Why? Why bother with this anymore? Theis is not listening. McMorrow is not the species of person she will ever listen to in her life. Years ago, she retreated behind some fortress of the mind, and anyone outside its wall is an orc.
Theis's colleagues and base are not, either. They are not living in the same world that we are. I almost typed "They are not alive in the way that we are," a scary mistake given my argument, which is that we are no longer human to them.
She sounds so powerful. I just wish ... well. It's been at least thirty years since I started tuning in to politics as a kid, and even then, especially then, I heard powerful messages about the hypocrisy of GOP Christianity, of whited sepulchers and those who cried out "Lord, Lord," but would not get in. Then, too, were the messages about the basic humanity of gay people and working mothers, and indeed so much of what she has to say. Thirty years of this.
Those who could be persuaded, they were. But it's time, I think, for a new message, highlighting the extreme and existential danger both to the nation and to actual people alive today, speaking directly to those who are in the world with us. For the GOP base and its demagogues, those whose hunger for death is greater than their love for the living -- I can't say. There are psychologists and specialists who know how to get through to people like that. And policy-makers, too, the sort of people whose job it is to stitch up severed nations. I'm not one of them.
posted by Countess Elena at 12:11 PM on April 20, 2022 [11 favorites]
Theis's colleagues and base are not, either. They are not living in the same world that we are. I almost typed "They are not alive in the way that we are," a scary mistake given my argument, which is that we are no longer human to them.
She sounds so powerful. I just wish ... well. It's been at least thirty years since I started tuning in to politics as a kid, and even then, especially then, I heard powerful messages about the hypocrisy of GOP Christianity, of whited sepulchers and those who cried out "Lord, Lord," but would not get in. Then, too, were the messages about the basic humanity of gay people and working mothers, and indeed so much of what she has to say. Thirty years of this.
Those who could be persuaded, they were. But it's time, I think, for a new message, highlighting the extreme and existential danger both to the nation and to actual people alive today, speaking directly to those who are in the world with us. For the GOP base and its demagogues, those whose hunger for death is greater than their love for the living -- I can't say. There are psychologists and specialists who know how to get through to people like that. And policy-makers, too, the sort of people whose job it is to stitch up severed nations. I'm not one of them.
posted by Countess Elena at 12:11 PM on April 20, 2022 [11 favorites]
In this speech she was remeniscent of Grace Slick's, laser voice, and she was magnificent, in her self defense.
posted by Oyéah at 12:28 PM on April 20, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Oyéah at 12:28 PM on April 20, 2022 [1 favorite]
Who was the MeFite who used to say the only way minds change is one grave at a time?
posted by DirtyOldTown at 12:30 PM on April 20, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 12:30 PM on April 20, 2022 [3 favorites]
Me I hope not.
posted by y2karl at 12:34 PM on April 20, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by y2karl at 12:34 PM on April 20, 2022 [1 favorite]
Kuhn, Planck, and Samuelson used to say that science makes progress one funeral at a time.
posted by migurski at 12:35 PM on April 20, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by migurski at 12:35 PM on April 20, 2022 [5 favorites]
One thing that troubles me -- although I know it's probably only done for effect -- is that she addresses Theis directly, instead of addressing her colleagues or voters. Why? Why bother with this anymore?
I imagine they think it's a stronger look to address your opponent directly rather than look like you are complaining about them behind their backs. Especially if you are responding to a personal attack rather than talking about their platform or their record.
posted by straight at 1:15 PM on April 20, 2022 [17 favorites]
I imagine they think it's a stronger look to address your opponent directly rather than look like you are complaining about them behind their backs. Especially if you are responding to a personal attack rather than talking about their platform or their record.
posted by straight at 1:15 PM on April 20, 2022 [17 favorites]
"Sen. McMorrow is not naïve about politics and fundraising. I know that because it took her mere minutes to turn her Senate floor speech into a plea for campaign donations," Theis said in a statement, issued by her re-election campaign. "While Sen. McMorrow is on MSNBC preaching to her choir, I’ll keep my focus on Michigan parents, who Democrats are seeking to undermine as the primary decision-makers in the education of their children." from Lana Theis offers no apology or evidence in response to Mallory McMorrow's viral speech [Detroit Free Press]
Hey you!
Lana Theis!
Yes YOU!
FUCK YOU!
posted by chavenet at 1:34 PM on April 20, 2022 [13 favorites]
Hey you!
Lana Theis!
Yes YOU!
FUCK YOU!
posted by chavenet at 1:34 PM on April 20, 2022 [13 favorites]
Rachel Maddow on how Putin uses false accusations of pedophilia against his foes and how the tactic has apparently crossed the Atlantic.
posted by The Ardship of Cambry at 1:47 PM on April 20, 2022 [13 favorites]
posted by The Ardship of Cambry at 1:47 PM on April 20, 2022 [13 favorites]
Now the Democratic leadership should exhibit this level of fire and pushback.
posted by Gadarene at 2:46 PM on April 20, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by Gadarene at 2:46 PM on April 20, 2022 [7 favorites]
Now the Democratic leadership should exhibit this level of fire and pushback.
If we're lucky, McMorrow will be the Democratic leadership before long
posted by chavenet at 3:06 PM on April 20, 2022 [16 favorites]
If we're lucky, McMorrow will be the Democratic leadership before long
posted by chavenet at 3:06 PM on April 20, 2022 [16 favorites]
Put her in charge.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 3:41 PM on April 20, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 3:41 PM on April 20, 2022 [5 favorites]
More of this
More of this from all of us
posted by elkevelvet at 3:54 PM on April 20, 2022 [15 favorites]
More of this from all of us
posted by elkevelvet at 3:54 PM on April 20, 2022 [15 favorites]
Indeed. Agreed. My point exactly.
posted by y2karl at 4:30 PM on April 20, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by y2karl at 4:30 PM on April 20, 2022 [3 favorites]
To show defamation, you have to show that someone:
1. Published
2. A Statement as Fact
3. Which harms your reputation
4. And which is provably false
AND if you're a public figure, you have to show that the defendant knew it was false or showed reckless disregard as to its falsity.
Does a fundraising email count as publication? Because it seems she might have a case. She said the email mentioned her by name. If she could point to tweets from Theis supporters attacking her or quoting the email, that's #3 down.
Steve Bannon has said the GOP strategy should be to "flood the zone with shit." It would be nice to see some consequences for spreading shit.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 6:06 PM on April 20, 2022 [6 favorites]
1. Published
2. A Statement as Fact
3. Which harms your reputation
4. And which is provably false
AND if you're a public figure, you have to show that the defendant knew it was false or showed reckless disregard as to its falsity.
Does a fundraising email count as publication? Because it seems she might have a case. She said the email mentioned her by name. If she could point to tweets from Theis supporters attacking her or quoting the email, that's #3 down.
Steve Bannon has said the GOP strategy should be to "flood the zone with shit." It would be nice to see some consequences for spreading shit.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 6:06 PM on April 20, 2022 [6 favorites]
Sue them anyway. Every time, for every slander. Robofile those lawsuits. Make this tactic very expensive.
posted by Revvy at 7:29 PM on April 20, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by Revvy at 7:29 PM on April 20, 2022 [7 favorites]
I fear there are too many tax-dodging Democrats and evangelical Democrats and gun-owning Democrats to attack Republicans at their weakest points.
posted by rhizome at 7:50 PM on April 20, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by rhizome at 7:50 PM on April 20, 2022 [2 favorites]
One side is much more likely to own weapons, much more likely to be in a militia, over represented in police depts, military leadership and has an ideology and rhetoric that excuses and celebrates violence, oppression and exploitation, has support of much more wealth, an alliance with a hostile foreign power. As noted, this side is demonizing its opponents to elicit public disgust and has and continues to incite political violence.
The otherside likes West Wing and takes "no" for an answer when holding investigations.
This speech is a moving act of self defense. it is yet another harrowing reminder that - even rhetorically- almost no one else is willing to fight back. The hour is past late.
What page of "On Tyranny" are we on now. Oops, its no longer in the local library.
posted by anecdotal_grand_theory at 12:03 AM on April 21, 2022 [9 favorites]
The otherside likes West Wing and takes "no" for an answer when holding investigations.
This speech is a moving act of self defense. it is yet another harrowing reminder that - even rhetorically- almost no one else is willing to fight back. The hour is past late.
What page of "On Tyranny" are we on now. Oops, its no longer in the local library.
posted by anecdotal_grand_theory at 12:03 AM on April 21, 2022 [9 favorites]
Let me rephrase this in the mandatory optimisim:
This speech is inspiring -true. What does it inspire you to do?
This politician is showing leadership - true. what is she leading her followers to do?
This moment us galvanizing - true. What are the witnesses to this momment galvanized for or against?
Vote, vote harder.
Canvass, canvass earlier and more.
Donate, donate earlier and more.
Speak openly, louder and with others.
Avail yourself of the constitutionally protected right to defend your country from enemies foreign and domestic.
Hold more than sympathy in your hearts for the abused, disadvantaged and unfortunate, hold the line at the baracades that defend them from the armed violence your taxes equip and pay.
donate more than money. Do you have more than 200 sqft/person in your residence? Fight the housing crisis - adopt a struggling family.
Do you work less than 60 hours a week?
Fight the exploitation of the poor by their employers - Adopt the errands and chores for a struggling family.
The food crisis? Cut back on meat and imports and pair up with a hungry family to give them not just some food, but some food security.
Meet your neighbors, train with your neighbors, plan with your neighbors, defend your neighbors.
The ____ are preparing to ____ you.
This easter, it's time to do unto others.
posted by anecdotal_grand_theory at 12:44 AM on April 21, 2022 [3 favorites]
This speech is inspiring -true. What does it inspire you to do?
This politician is showing leadership - true. what is she leading her followers to do?
This moment us galvanizing - true. What are the witnesses to this momment galvanized for or against?
Vote, vote harder.
Canvass, canvass earlier and more.
Donate, donate earlier and more.
Speak openly, louder and with others.
Avail yourself of the constitutionally protected right to defend your country from enemies foreign and domestic.
Hold more than sympathy in your hearts for the abused, disadvantaged and unfortunate, hold the line at the baracades that defend them from the armed violence your taxes equip and pay.
donate more than money. Do you have more than 200 sqft/person in your residence? Fight the housing crisis - adopt a struggling family.
Do you work less than 60 hours a week?
Fight the exploitation of the poor by their employers - Adopt the errands and chores for a struggling family.
The food crisis? Cut back on meat and imports and pair up with a hungry family to give them not just some food, but some food security.
Meet your neighbors, train with your neighbors, plan with your neighbors, defend your neighbors.
The ____ are preparing to ____ you.
This easter, it's time to do unto others.
posted by anecdotal_grand_theory at 12:44 AM on April 21, 2022 [3 favorites]
One side is much more likely to own weapons, much more likely to be in a militia, over represented in police depts, military leadership and has an ideology and rhetoric that excuses and celebrates violence, oppression and exploitation, has support of much more wealth, an alliance with a hostile foreign power. As noted, this side is demonizing its opponents to elicit public disgust and has and continues to incite political violence
Sure, but as it turns out the problem is in avoiding whataboutism, tu quoque, and friends, which seem to be the currencies of policy debate in the US.
posted by rhizome at 3:36 AM on April 21, 2022
Sure, but as it turns out the problem is in avoiding whataboutism, tu quoque, and friends, which seem to be the currencies of policy debate in the US.
posted by rhizome at 3:36 AM on April 21, 2022
Does a fundraising email count as publication? Because it seems she might have a case. She said the email mentioned her by name. If she could point to tweets from Theis supporters attacking her or quoting the email, that's #3 down.
The problem with these sorts of defamation suits is not the publication element, but the "statement of fact" element. Such claims are often dismissed as "political rhetoric" or "hyperbolic opinion". The Theis email is vaguely worded to ensure that it doesn't specifically accuse McMorrow of grooming or pedophilia, just that she's mad that she can't do those things. It's purposely slippery.
Also, as someone else pointed out, the fact that they are both public figures makes defamation more difficult to prove, because there is a competing free speech right to speak out against people in authority. Dumb in this case, obviously, but there you go.
posted by Ben Trismegistus at 6:43 AM on April 21, 2022 [1 favorite]
The problem with these sorts of defamation suits is not the publication element, but the "statement of fact" element. Such claims are often dismissed as "political rhetoric" or "hyperbolic opinion". The Theis email is vaguely worded to ensure that it doesn't specifically accuse McMorrow of grooming or pedophilia, just that she's mad that she can't do those things. It's purposely slippery.
Also, as someone else pointed out, the fact that they are both public figures makes defamation more difficult to prove, because there is a competing free speech right to speak out against people in authority. Dumb in this case, obviously, but there you go.
posted by Ben Trismegistus at 6:43 AM on April 21, 2022 [1 favorite]
I've watched this a bunch
we don't get to see the rare blend of anger, anger just shy of spitting anger really, but also so articulate, pointed so sharply, it's rare
lastly, horrifying: this is where things are now. This is where we're at, and what will it take to right things
posted by elkevelvet at 8:40 AM on April 21, 2022 [4 favorites]
we don't get to see the rare blend of anger, anger just shy of spitting anger really, but also so articulate, pointed so sharply, it's rare
lastly, horrifying: this is where things are now. This is where we're at, and what will it take to right things
posted by elkevelvet at 8:40 AM on April 21, 2022 [4 favorites]
What makes this so satisfying is that it is so rare.
The impression I get from the Democratic caucus is not that they are trying to stay "above the fray". It's that they are afraid. Enough of us on Metafilter have been bullied in our lives to know exactly how they feel.
How do you generate excitement among your potential voters if you seem too scared to stand up to the threats to those same potential voters?
posted by wittgenstein at 1:32 PM on April 22, 2022 [5 favorites]
The impression I get from the Democratic caucus is not that they are trying to stay "above the fray". It's that they are afraid. Enough of us on Metafilter have been bullied in our lives to know exactly how they feel.
How do you generate excitement among your potential voters if you seem too scared to stand up to the threats to those same potential voters?
posted by wittgenstein at 1:32 PM on April 22, 2022 [5 favorites]
From tonight's PBS Newshour:
Michigan Sen. Mallory McMorrow explains why she stood up to a culture war attack
She is so well spoken.
posted by y2karl at 6:36 PM on April 22, 2022
Michigan Sen. Mallory McMorrow explains why she stood up to a culture war attack
She is so well spoken.
posted by y2karl at 6:36 PM on April 22, 2022
It's that they are afraid.
Stochastic terror is a hell of a drug.
posted by Etrigan at 5:40 AM on April 23, 2022
Stochastic terror is a hell of a drug.
posted by Etrigan at 5:40 AM on April 23, 2022
Woo, Michigan Republican state senators are really going whole hog on the inflammatory claims and attempts to panic citizens about the "trans agenda" coming for their children. Michigan State Senator Tom Barrett is sending Michiganders texts that read, "CONFIRMED, your child's gender reassignment surgery has been booked." The texts warn that the Biden administration is pushing dangerous, radical trans information to 5-year-olds, and that "If we fail, our children are doomed."
Nothing like thoughtful political discourse! Nothing like it at all. . .
posted by DrMew at 6:07 PM on April 23, 2022
Nothing like thoughtful political discourse! Nothing like it at all. . .
posted by DrMew at 6:07 PM on April 23, 2022
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posted by y2karl at 10:04 AM on April 20, 2022 [20 favorites]