uvalde, texas
May 24, 2022 2:40 PM Subscribe
Less than two weeks after 10 people were killed in a racially motivated massacre in Buffalo NY, fourteen children and one teacher have been killed in a shooting at a Texas elementary school. The story is still developing. [cw for discussion of gun violence and violence towards children]
There have been 212 mass shootings in the US in 2022 so far.
Gov. Abbot in 2015: "Texas #2 in nation for new gun purchases, behind CALIFORNIA. Let's pick up the pace Texans."
We're also six months away from the 10th anniversary of Sandy Hook. How far the US has not come at all.
posted by fight or flight at 2:43 PM on May 24, 2022 [47 favorites]
Gov. Abbot in 2015: "Texas #2 in nation for new gun purchases, behind CALIFORNIA. Let's pick up the pace Texans."
We're also six months away from the 10th anniversary of Sandy Hook. How far the US has not come at all.
posted by fight or flight at 2:43 PM on May 24, 2022 [47 favorites]
Get ready for the thoughts and prayers flowchart.
I work in schools and today I had to speak to middle school teachers who are tired and have a tendency to let kids leave classes and wander. I asked them to please support keeping kids in rooms and noted we'd need to know where kids are in an emergency. One especially salty teacher responded in a jerky way that I was being ridiculous.
Jesus f**KING Christ.
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 2:48 PM on May 24, 2022 [47 favorites]
I work in schools and today I had to speak to middle school teachers who are tired and have a tendency to let kids leave classes and wander. I asked them to please support keeping kids in rooms and noted we'd need to know where kids are in an emergency. One especially salty teacher responded in a jerky way that I was being ridiculous.
Jesus f**KING Christ.
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 2:48 PM on May 24, 2022 [47 favorites]
Djivan Gasparyan – I Will Not Be Sad In This World (1983 - Album)
posted by robbyrobs at 2:49 PM on May 24, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by robbyrobs at 2:49 PM on May 24, 2022 [4 favorites]
Nightmare country.
posted by bleep at 2:51 PM on May 24, 2022 [15 favorites]
posted by bleep at 2:51 PM on May 24, 2022 [15 favorites]
I fully expect to outlive this country at this point. Whether it will mutate into some unrecognizable fascist state or simply balkanize into a group of other countries, I do not know. But I do not expect the United States of America to be an ongoing concern in another 40-50 years.
The mass shooting issue is the clearest possible example of how legislation and the public agenda are in no way affected by desperate needs for public good.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 2:55 PM on May 24, 2022 [91 favorites]
The mass shooting issue is the clearest possible example of how legislation and the public agenda are in no way affected by desperate needs for public good.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 2:55 PM on May 24, 2022 [91 favorites]
Look people, we need the flower wars to provide itz to the gods so that they can continue to move the sun across the sky. The practice of moloch is necessary to appease the god Melkart, who is the sun! Gladiatorial matches are an important part of our culture, it's how we venerate and honor the notable dead!
If we don't throw children into the volcano, how will we please the volcano god?
We think we're a civilization, but we aren't, not really. Future centuries of humanity will gaze upon us with the same disgust and contempt that we have for all those virgin-sacrificing pagans.
posted by LeRoienJaune at 2:58 PM on May 24, 2022 [37 favorites]
If we don't throw children into the volcano, how will we please the volcano god?
We think we're a civilization, but we aren't, not really. Future centuries of humanity will gaze upon us with the same disgust and contempt that we have for all those virgin-sacrificing pagans.
posted by LeRoienJaune at 2:58 PM on May 24, 2022 [37 favorites]
"There is a funeral home across the street from the school."
What a morbid detail to conclude with. Like it's a convenience, or something.
posted by mhoye at 2:58 PM on May 24, 2022 [9 favorites]
What a morbid detail to conclude with. Like it's a convenience, or something.
posted by mhoye at 2:58 PM on May 24, 2022 [9 favorites]
"Our country suffers all. How long will this go on? What is happening to us? Through our sins evil has assumed human form. your God will forgive you, don't forgive yourself."
Andrey Rublyov
Russian icon painter born in the 1360s, and died between 1427 and 1430 in Moscow. He is considered to be one of the greatest medieval Russian painters of Orthodox Christian icons and frescoes.
posted by robbyrobs at 3:01 PM on May 24, 2022 [11 favorites]
Andrey Rublyov
Russian icon painter born in the 1360s, and died between 1427 and 1430 in Moscow. He is considered to be one of the greatest medieval Russian painters of Orthodox Christian icons and frescoes.
posted by robbyrobs at 3:01 PM on May 24, 2022 [11 favorites]
There have been 212 mass shootings in the US in 2022 so far.
Where were the 212 good guys with a gun during all this?
posted by ricochet biscuit at 3:02 PM on May 24, 2022 [52 favorites]
Where were the 212 good guys with a gun during all this?
posted by ricochet biscuit at 3:02 PM on May 24, 2022 [52 favorites]
A long history of nothing happening at all: Failed gun legislation is the norm after mass shootings like Buffalo tragedy
posted by meowzilla at 3:03 PM on May 24, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by meowzilla at 3:03 PM on May 24, 2022 [4 favorites]
Sen. Chris Murphy delivers remarks on Uvalde, Texas elementary school shooting:
“What are we doing? What are we doing? [...] This only happens in this country and nowhere else. Nowhere else do little kids go to school thinking that they might be shot that day. [...] What are we doing? Why do you spend all this time running for the United States Senate … if your answer is that, as the slaughter increases, as our kids run for their lives, we do nothing? What are we doing? Why are you here?"
posted by fight or flight at 3:04 PM on May 24, 2022 [127 favorites]
“What are we doing? What are we doing? [...] This only happens in this country and nowhere else. Nowhere else do little kids go to school thinking that they might be shot that day. [...] What are we doing? Why do you spend all this time running for the United States Senate … if your answer is that, as the slaughter increases, as our kids run for their lives, we do nothing? What are we doing? Why are you here?"
posted by fight or flight at 3:04 PM on May 24, 2022 [127 favorites]
'No Way To Prevent This,' Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens
posted by lalochezia at 3:05 PM on May 24, 2022 [89 favorites]
When people say, “we have made it through worse before”
— Clint Smith
all I hear is the wind slapping against the gravestones
of those who did not make it, those who did not
survive to see the confetti fall from the sky, those who
did not live to watch the parade roll down the street.
I have grown accustomed to a lifetime of aphorisms
meant to assuage my fears, pithy sayings meant to
convey that everything ends up fine in the end. There is no
solace in rearranging language to make a different word
tell the same lie. Sometimes the moral arc of the universe
does not bend in a direction that will comfort us.
Sometimes it bends in ways we don’t expect & there are
people who fall off in the process. Please, dear reader,
do not say I am hopeless, I believe there is a better future
to fight for, I simply accept the possibility that I may not
live to see it. I have grown weary of telling myself lies
that I might one day begin to believe. We are not all left
standing after the war has ended. Some of us have
become ghosts by the time the dust has settled.
posted by MengerSponge at 3:06 PM on May 24, 2022 [99 favorites]
What is there to say anymore? It’s hopeless.
posted by ryanshepard at 3:07 PM on May 24, 2022 [15 favorites]
posted by ryanshepard at 3:07 PM on May 24, 2022 [15 favorites]
"On May 18, 1992, the Archivist of the United States, Don W. Wilson, certified that the [27th] amendment's ratification had been completed."
Thirty years since the Constitution was last amended. We just lack the unified polity required for Constitutional self-governance any more. Not that the 2nd should have been applied to the states (McDonald) or self-defense (Heller) anyway.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 3:20 PM on May 24, 2022 [3 favorites]
Thirty years since the Constitution was last amended. We just lack the unified polity required for Constitutional self-governance any more. Not that the 2nd should have been applied to the states (McDonald) or self-defense (Heller) anyway.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 3:20 PM on May 24, 2022 [3 favorites]
> This only happens in this country and nowhere else.
Used to happen in Australia, too, but they finally said “enough”. I guess our tolerance for horror is higher.
posted by ASCII Costanza head at 3:24 PM on May 24, 2022 [9 favorites]
Used to happen in Australia, too, but they finally said “enough”. I guess our tolerance for horror is higher.
posted by ASCII Costanza head at 3:24 PM on May 24, 2022 [9 favorites]
Where were the 212 good guys with a gun during all this?
posted by ricochet biscuit at 6:02 PM on May 24
No good guys with guns - but a rabbi with a chair distracted a shooter long enough for him and the other hostages to escape, and an unarmed doctor gave a pastor with a chair and other congregants just long enough to subdue that shooter.
Guns don't defend well against guns; the supermarket security guard in Buffalo was armed with a gun. But lone shooters can be defeated by a group with coordinated action - not without casualties, but with fewer casualties than when people don't know what to do.
Obviously, the best thing is to ban the guns. But something else which is worth doing is training people on how to react and work together in a lone shooter situation, as the rabbi in Colleyville had been trained.
posted by jb at 3:24 PM on May 24, 2022 [20 favorites]
posted by ricochet biscuit at 6:02 PM on May 24
No good guys with guns - but a rabbi with a chair distracted a shooter long enough for him and the other hostages to escape, and an unarmed doctor gave a pastor with a chair and other congregants just long enough to subdue that shooter.
Guns don't defend well against guns; the supermarket security guard in Buffalo was armed with a gun. But lone shooters can be defeated by a group with coordinated action - not without casualties, but with fewer casualties than when people don't know what to do.
Obviously, the best thing is to ban the guns. But something else which is worth doing is training people on how to react and work together in a lone shooter situation, as the rabbi in Colleyville had been trained.
posted by jb at 3:24 PM on May 24, 2022 [20 favorites]
Every question about gun control should be answered, “Why do they want kids at school to die?”
Stop answering honestly and just get fucking dirty with it already. Bans on anything but subsonic ammunition in the hands of civilians. Criminalize rifling in barrels. Firing pins must be a crappy tin alloy that breaks after three uses. Bounties for ammo hoarders. Bullets must deform into spheres mid flight. Waiting periods on ammunition purchases after producing you Gun ID, which must be legally distinct from your Voter ID and you have to prove that it isn’t what you last used to vote with. Start talking about how there’s no long held legal tradition to murdering children in schools whenever the second amendment is brought up. There’s no long held right to be able to kill dozens of people. There’s no right to ammunition privacy. There’s no long held legal tradition that “Popular Guns” be exempt from scrutiny.
Is it all nonsense and dishonest? Sure! Everything on the issue is dishonest because the people insisting that thousands die each year so rarely suffer themselves. Or they pull some horseshit about needing to defend themselves against the government.
posted by Slackermagee at 3:28 PM on May 24, 2022 [69 favorites]
Stop answering honestly and just get fucking dirty with it already. Bans on anything but subsonic ammunition in the hands of civilians. Criminalize rifling in barrels. Firing pins must be a crappy tin alloy that breaks after three uses. Bounties for ammo hoarders. Bullets must deform into spheres mid flight. Waiting periods on ammunition purchases after producing you Gun ID, which must be legally distinct from your Voter ID and you have to prove that it isn’t what you last used to vote with. Start talking about how there’s no long held legal tradition to murdering children in schools whenever the second amendment is brought up. There’s no long held right to be able to kill dozens of people. There’s no right to ammunition privacy. There’s no long held legal tradition that “Popular Guns” be exempt from scrutiny.
Is it all nonsense and dishonest? Sure! Everything on the issue is dishonest because the people insisting that thousands die each year so rarely suffer themselves. Or they pull some horseshit about needing to defend themselves against the government.
posted by Slackermagee at 3:28 PM on May 24, 2022 [69 favorites]
The USA is a fucked up place.... My condolences.
posted by Pendragon at 3:31 PM on May 24, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by Pendragon at 3:31 PM on May 24, 2022 [6 favorites]
.
Freshest of white shirts
Grimmest of expressions
Shiniest of state logos
Crowd of serious looking white men in background behind them - hands clasped
Careful repeating of known facts as if in a court room to convey how on top of this we are
Refer to notes - make sure everyone knows you can read
Horrific tragedy
Promise to do vague things quickly without any specifics
Brief mention of families - don’t linger
Big ups to law enforcement
Try to mask lack of empathy through faking reassuring face and tone
Insert religious reference if necessary
Pass to senior most white man standing behind me to repeat same information in a different tone
Job done
posted by inflatablekiwi at 3:33 PM on May 24, 2022 [45 favorites]
Freshest of white shirts
Grimmest of expressions
Shiniest of state logos
Crowd of serious looking white men in background behind them - hands clasped
Careful repeating of known facts as if in a court room to convey how on top of this we are
Refer to notes - make sure everyone knows you can read
Horrific tragedy
Promise to do vague things quickly without any specifics
Brief mention of families - don’t linger
Big ups to law enforcement
Try to mask lack of empathy through faking reassuring face and tone
Insert religious reference if necessary
Pass to senior most white man standing behind me to repeat same information in a different tone
Job done
posted by inflatablekiwi at 3:33 PM on May 24, 2022 [45 favorites]
.
posted by vespertinism at 3:34 PM on May 24, 2022
posted by vespertinism at 3:34 PM on May 24, 2022
.
posted by interogative mood at 3:36 PM on May 24, 2022
posted by interogative mood at 3:36 PM on May 24, 2022
I work in schools and today I had to speak to middle school teachers who are tired and have a tendency to let kids leave classes and wander. I asked them to please support keeping kids in rooms and noted we'd need to know where kids are in an emergency. One especially salty teacher responded in a jerky way that I was being ridiculous.
I originally went to university to be a teacher, and although I ended up taking a different path I've kept up with some of my old classmates and have made a lot of teacher friends over the years. I've watched enough of them leave the profession, spend years trying to find a way to leave the profession, or white-knuckle their way through to the earliest possible retirement opportunity to know that I couldn't have lasted long under the current conditions.
My first student teaching assignment, back when dinosaurs roamed the Earth and Methuselah was a twinkle in his daddy's eye, was in an urban elementary school a world apart from the rural K-12's I attended. The big scary thing at that time was that we had to keep the classroom doors locked because there had been a rash of non-custodial parents trying to take their kids out of the classroom without the custodial parents' permission. If any of us had had any idea that we were going to have to keep the doors locked to keep mass murderers out of the classroom, I don't think I would have been the only one leaving the program.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 3:38 PM on May 24, 2022 [14 favorites]
I originally went to university to be a teacher, and although I ended up taking a different path I've kept up with some of my old classmates and have made a lot of teacher friends over the years. I've watched enough of them leave the profession, spend years trying to find a way to leave the profession, or white-knuckle their way through to the earliest possible retirement opportunity to know that I couldn't have lasted long under the current conditions.
My first student teaching assignment, back when dinosaurs roamed the Earth and Methuselah was a twinkle in his daddy's eye, was in an urban elementary school a world apart from the rural K-12's I attended. The big scary thing at that time was that we had to keep the classroom doors locked because there had been a rash of non-custodial parents trying to take their kids out of the classroom without the custodial parents' permission. If any of us had had any idea that we were going to have to keep the doors locked to keep mass murderers out of the classroom, I don't think I would have been the only one leaving the program.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 3:38 PM on May 24, 2022 [14 favorites]
In Uvalde, and in Buffalo, the murderers were 18-year-old men.
Most school shootings are perpetrated by 17- or 16-year olds. (statista)
In cases involving K-12 school shootings, over 80% of individuals who engaged in shootings stole guns from family members. The findings support safe storage of guns. Yet, the researchers noted that there are no federal laws requiring safe storage of guns, and no federal standards for firearm locks. (National Institute of Justice)
Most school shooters get their guns from home – and during the pandemic, the number of firearms in households with teenagers went up. Households that already kept firearms unlocked and loaded were also those that were more likely to purchase firearms during the pandemic, we found. (The Conversation)
posted by Iris Gambol at 3:39 PM on May 24, 2022 [46 favorites]
Most school shootings are perpetrated by 17- or 16-year olds. (statista)
In cases involving K-12 school shootings, over 80% of individuals who engaged in shootings stole guns from family members. The findings support safe storage of guns. Yet, the researchers noted that there are no federal laws requiring safe storage of guns, and no federal standards for firearm locks. (National Institute of Justice)
Most school shooters get their guns from home – and during the pandemic, the number of firearms in households with teenagers went up. Households that already kept firearms unlocked and loaded were also those that were more likely to purchase firearms during the pandemic, we found. (The Conversation)
posted by Iris Gambol at 3:39 PM on May 24, 2022 [46 favorites]
I'm a librarian and about five years ago I was at a public school to photograph an author who was appearing there as part of a program we were offering. Before the event the school went through a surprise lockdown drill. I hid in a closet in the school library with 25 scared 2nd graders. It was sickening. It was infuriating. And nothing has changed.
posted by zzazazz at 3:40 PM on May 24, 2022 [51 favorites]
posted by zzazazz at 3:40 PM on May 24, 2022 [51 favorites]
When people say, “we have made it through worse before”
— Clint Smith
Survivorship bias is a hell of a drug.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 3:42 PM on May 24, 2022 [12 favorites]
— Clint Smith
Survivorship bias is a hell of a drug.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 3:42 PM on May 24, 2022 [12 favorites]
What a morbid detail to conclude with. Like it's a convenience, or something.
At this time of year in the Southwest, where mortuary trailers are likely far away and there may.not be contracts in place for running DPMUs, yes, it absolutely is a good thing. Hospitals won't have sufficient cold storage capacity for this. DMORT probably couldn't get there for a while - recent deployments in Region 6 take weeks to get together - and the Texas mass fatality plan relies heavily on funeral homes. There will also be a family assistance center to be set up nearby. Infrastructure is actually crucial in these situations.
Yes, fatality management is my area of expertise. AMA.
posted by Ardnamurchan at 3:46 PM on May 24, 2022 [49 favorites]
At this time of year in the Southwest, where mortuary trailers are likely far away and there may.not be contracts in place for running DPMUs, yes, it absolutely is a good thing. Hospitals won't have sufficient cold storage capacity for this. DMORT probably couldn't get there for a while - recent deployments in Region 6 take weeks to get together - and the Texas mass fatality plan relies heavily on funeral homes. There will also be a family assistance center to be set up nearby. Infrastructure is actually crucial in these situations.
Yes, fatality management is my area of expertise. AMA.
posted by Ardnamurchan at 3:46 PM on May 24, 2022 [49 favorites]
lone shooters can be defeated by a group with coordinated action
For example, you can teach preschool children how to distract a shooter so they become the target and allow their friends to escape.
posted by fight or flight at 3:48 PM on May 24, 2022 [14 favorites]
For example, you can teach preschool children how to distract a shooter so they become the target and allow their friends to escape.
posted by fight or flight at 3:48 PM on May 24, 2022 [14 favorites]
One up-side to having my kid home from school during the pandemic was not having to think about school shooters. Or mass shooters much at all since we weren't gathering anywhere. It was nice not think about active shooter drills either. The very first time my kiddo needed to participate in one, I was lucky and heard about it ahead of time and took her to the Zoo instead. That's what kids should do...visit the zoo and look at animals not learn how to crush into a closet and stay absolutely still and terrified behind the skirts of her brave but over-burdened elementary school teacher. Stuff like this makes me want to run off screaming and haul my kid out of school and run away. But, that would be hysterical, wouldn't it.
posted by amanda at 3:51 PM on May 24, 2022 [25 favorites]
posted by amanda at 3:51 PM on May 24, 2022 [25 favorites]
Texas Governor Greg Abbott (R-NRA): “He shot and killed horrifically, incomprehensibly, 14 students and killed a teacher,” Mr. Abbott said. [NYT]
@rebekahentralgo: Greg Abbott is slated to speak at the NRA convention in Houston *this Friday* alongside Ted Cruz, John Cornyn, Dan Crenshaw, and Trump
@shannonrwatts: According to the Governor of Texas, the gunman who killed at least 15 people in Uvalde is an 18-year-old who lives in the community. He had a handgun and may have been armed with a rifle, too. In 2021, Texas lawmakers lowered the age to carry a handgun to 18.
Seems pretty comprehensible to me.
Meanwhile, a sneak preview of Abbott's likely policy prescription from his Attorney General:
@atrupar: Asked on Newsmax about his solution for school shootings, Texas AG Ken Paxton mentions arming teachers
I'd also expect rote recitation of talking points about mental health, but no suggestion of any actual policy intervention that would help address mental heath, except for ones that would be used to target minorities.
I'd love to hear him recite those talking points to the family members of the deceased, but I highly doubt he has the courage to meet them outside of a carefully scripted setting.
posted by tonycpsu at 3:51 PM on May 24, 2022 [54 favorites]
@rebekahentralgo: Greg Abbott is slated to speak at the NRA convention in Houston *this Friday* alongside Ted Cruz, John Cornyn, Dan Crenshaw, and Trump
@shannonrwatts: According to the Governor of Texas, the gunman who killed at least 15 people in Uvalde is an 18-year-old who lives in the community. He had a handgun and may have been armed with a rifle, too. In 2021, Texas lawmakers lowered the age to carry a handgun to 18.
Seems pretty comprehensible to me.
Meanwhile, a sneak preview of Abbott's likely policy prescription from his Attorney General:
@atrupar: Asked on Newsmax about his solution for school shootings, Texas AG Ken Paxton mentions arming teachers
I'd also expect rote recitation of talking points about mental health, but no suggestion of any actual policy intervention that would help address mental heath, except for ones that would be used to target minorities.
I'd love to hear him recite those talking points to the family members of the deceased, but I highly doubt he has the courage to meet them outside of a carefully scripted setting.
posted by tonycpsu at 3:51 PM on May 24, 2022 [54 favorites]
I don’t give a shit if they ban all guns and people have to hunt deer with their teeth. I’ve had it. Dear heroes and three percenters who heroically have guns for the rest of us sheep: please fuck off to Hungary or someplace.
posted by freecellwizard at 3:53 PM on May 24, 2022 [35 favorites]
posted by freecellwizard at 3:53 PM on May 24, 2022 [35 favorites]
Possible workaround for the 2nd:
Tax ammunition/gunpowder like cigarettes. Plus, unlike guns, they go bad over time so people need to buy more unless they’re doing the prepper dry nitrogen storage thing. Which is a PITA.
Require proof of stamp tax payment at any range, for any hunting license, etc, etc. Next up, publish quantities possessed by any person or entity complete with their address, just as with toxic release inventory records.
‘course, Cruz/MTG et al would go apeshit but they’re always gonna do that anyway.
…but remember, US Conservatives frame their personal identity and self-worth around their theoretical ability to kill anyone they want. They all think they’re potential action heroes-in-waiting, so you need to go around and to the sides of that — I think ammo is a weak point, but there are others.
posted by aramaic at 3:58 PM on May 24, 2022 [20 favorites]
Tax ammunition/gunpowder like cigarettes. Plus, unlike guns, they go bad over time so people need to buy more unless they’re doing the prepper dry nitrogen storage thing. Which is a PITA.
Require proof of stamp tax payment at any range, for any hunting license, etc, etc. Next up, publish quantities possessed by any person or entity complete with their address, just as with toxic release inventory records.
‘course, Cruz/MTG et al would go apeshit but they’re always gonna do that anyway.
…but remember, US Conservatives frame their personal identity and self-worth around their theoretical ability to kill anyone they want. They all think they’re potential action heroes-in-waiting, so you need to go around and to the sides of that — I think ammo is a weak point, but there are others.
posted by aramaic at 3:58 PM on May 24, 2022 [20 favorites]
It's unreal how much the same people who care so desperately about the lives of the unborn care so little about living children.
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 4:02 PM on May 24, 2022 [135 favorites]
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 4:02 PM on May 24, 2022 [135 favorites]
Until the murdered bodies of children are on the front pages of NYT, the Post, etc., nothing will change. It may not change then, either, but at least we'll have stopped hiding the grotesque reality of our situation out of some baseless sense of decorum.
It's unreal how much the same people who care so desperately about the lives of the unborn care so little about living children.
The only care about domination and subjugation. They are not in the least bit concerned about the well-being of children.
posted by ryanshepard at 4:09 PM on May 24, 2022 [68 favorites]
It's unreal how much the same people who care so desperately about the lives of the unborn care so little about living children.
The only care about domination and subjugation. They are not in the least bit concerned about the well-being of children.
posted by ryanshepard at 4:09 PM on May 24, 2022 [68 favorites]
And nothing will change, nothing. My country is obsessed with violence, bigotry and hatred. Plus capitalism. We are a country in decline that is accelerating with each passing day.
posted by bluesky43 at 4:11 PM on May 24, 2022 [16 favorites]
posted by bluesky43 at 4:11 PM on May 24, 2022 [16 favorites]
We have clearly lost the benefit of the doubt as a nation. We don't deserve background checks. No it isn't your God given right. It's a right that was made when it took like a full minute to load a gun. A right made by people who mentioned how they think we may have to change things in the future. People who if we brought back today would likely be shocked and disappointed at how little we have changed it. It is time that America take away all guns. It is time that America actually gives a fuck.
posted by ChumBuddie at 4:12 PM on May 24, 2022 [21 favorites]
posted by ChumBuddie at 4:12 PM on May 24, 2022 [21 favorites]
I don't think America would care if literally every single kid in school between 5-18 was killed in mass shootouts on the same day. Literally nothing is bad enough to take away your assault rifles and whatever.
posted by jenfullmoon at 4:18 PM on May 24, 2022 [17 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 4:18 PM on May 24, 2022 [17 favorites]
I don't think America would care
A comfortable majority of the American people support sensible gun control laws. The people who don't care are representing a minority that is enjoying disproportionate and undemocratic political control.
posted by prefpara at 4:22 PM on May 24, 2022 [76 favorites]
A comfortable majority of the American people support sensible gun control laws. The people who don't care are representing a minority that is enjoying disproportionate and undemocratic political control.
posted by prefpara at 4:22 PM on May 24, 2022 [76 favorites]
You know, the purpose of the US constitution is to enable people to live fulfilling lives of their choice, not to live in constant terror of their fellow citizens.
And yet, here we are.
posted by Big Al 8000 at 4:24 PM on May 24, 2022 [23 favorites]
And yet, here we are.
posted by Big Al 8000 at 4:24 PM on May 24, 2022 [23 favorites]
I have always assumed the world is filled with loons. While most are harmless, some are not. My secret decoder ring has proved worthless in discerning between the two. I imagine yours has as well...
posted by jim in austin at 4:27 PM on May 24, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by jim in austin at 4:27 PM on May 24, 2022 [2 favorites]
Thank you, yes I said yes I will Yes. I wish I could favorite this a million times: "It's unreal how much the same people who care so desperately about the lives of the unborn care so little about living children."
posted by hydra77 at 4:27 PM on May 24, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by hydra77 at 4:27 PM on May 24, 2022 [7 favorites]
The dates and titles of the related posts below this are depressing me even more.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 4:29 PM on May 24, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 4:29 PM on May 24, 2022 [3 favorites]
"I guess our tolerance for horror is higher."
I think so. And I think it's gotten higher of late.
and .
posted by doctornemo at 4:33 PM on May 24, 2022 [1 favorite]
I think so. And I think it's gotten higher of late.
and .
posted by doctornemo at 4:33 PM on May 24, 2022 [1 favorite]
Forgive me for just throwing out some Spanish Love Songs songs, but, it's really the only catharsis I know anymore.
And some asshole shot up some kids
A week before you left for Portland
I’m thinking about dying again
From the worst outcomes of a world
That I can’t slow down
No matter how many times
I throw my hands into the air
And plead with everyone
I know it’s wrong
But I’m thinking about buying a gun
It's the clear backpacks, it's the two new fire exits
I’m buying a beer
Don't want to think of where I'm running
If another asshole takes a shot
I hate the rhythm of our lives these days
Stare into a dead space shoutin' at my phone
Duckin' in my seat 'cause someone brought a bag into the movie theater
The radio's droning, dulled out by the
Intercom on fire
Guiding the evening's choreography
And Katie has her hand in a young man's chest
Stain on her white shoes that won't wash out
So usual, not the last pair this year
And down the hallway, cries rise and fall
In between the nearly constant sirens
Someone turns on the news like we need it
It's just another white man with a grudge
The break room sits empty
Just like our hearts been draining in the waiting room
Think of your daughter at her wedding
And you know life isn't long enough
Your shirt's speckled red, you're holding onto a
Young girl's hand, so frail and cold
So casual, not even the last one today
And I wish for the fingers to count or the
Memory to remember each new city
But I lost track so long ago
I think it was around "260"
They're praying for you
I said, "They're praying for you"
Isn't that good enough?
posted by General Malaise at 4:33 PM on May 24, 2022 [15 favorites]
And some asshole shot up some kids
A week before you left for Portland
I’m thinking about dying again
From the worst outcomes of a world
That I can’t slow down
No matter how many times
I throw my hands into the air
And plead with everyone
I know it’s wrong
But I’m thinking about buying a gun
It's the clear backpacks, it's the two new fire exits
I’m buying a beer
Don't want to think of where I'm running
If another asshole takes a shot
I hate the rhythm of our lives these days
Stare into a dead space shoutin' at my phone
Duckin' in my seat 'cause someone brought a bag into the movie theater
The radio's droning, dulled out by the
Intercom on fire
Guiding the evening's choreography
And Katie has her hand in a young man's chest
Stain on her white shoes that won't wash out
So usual, not the last pair this year
And down the hallway, cries rise and fall
In between the nearly constant sirens
Someone turns on the news like we need it
It's just another white man with a grudge
The break room sits empty
Just like our hearts been draining in the waiting room
Think of your daughter at her wedding
And you know life isn't long enough
Your shirt's speckled red, you're holding onto a
Young girl's hand, so frail and cold
So casual, not even the last one today
And I wish for the fingers to count or the
Memory to remember each new city
But I lost track so long ago
I think it was around "260"
They're praying for you
I said, "They're praying for you"
Isn't that good enough?
posted by General Malaise at 4:33 PM on May 24, 2022 [15 favorites]
The people who don't care are representing a minority that is enjoying disproportionate and undemocratic political control.
Yes. In all this discussion of "why don't they do anything" it's important to remember that the United States is ruled by a group of white Christian nationalists who were either elected under a system of minority rule or (in the case of the Surpreme Court) elevated to near absolute power with no democratic input. One of the unquestioned cultural values of these rulers is unfettered access to firearms.
posted by mr_roboto at 4:36 PM on May 24, 2022 [83 favorites]
Yes. In all this discussion of "why don't they do anything" it's important to remember that the United States is ruled by a group of white Christian nationalists who were either elected under a system of minority rule or (in the case of the Surpreme Court) elevated to near absolute power with no democratic input. One of the unquestioned cultural values of these rulers is unfettered access to firearms.
posted by mr_roboto at 4:36 PM on May 24, 2022 [83 favorites]
A comfortable majority of the American people support sensible gun control laws.
They don't vote that way. A narrow majority of the American people don't vote for the GOP candidates who, since roughly 1994 and absolutely since 2016, will never vote for restrictions on use, storage, safe handling, or ownership of firearms in any way.
Collectively America, unfortunately, really is OK with this.
posted by tclark at 4:36 PM on May 24, 2022 [16 favorites]
They don't vote that way. A narrow majority of the American people don't vote for the GOP candidates who, since roughly 1994 and absolutely since 2016, will never vote for restrictions on use, storage, safe handling, or ownership of firearms in any way.
Collectively America, unfortunately, really is OK with this.
posted by tclark at 4:36 PM on May 24, 2022 [16 favorites]
The GOP wins on the issue of more guns to kill elementary school kids. In 2016 the GOP got 1% more votes nationwide than the democrats in congressional elections.
If GOP candidates resoundingly lost even "safe" seats due to the firearm free-for-all, they wouldn't support it any longer. But they don't lose, and they won't lose. Sandy Hook didn't rouse America from its complacency, the January 6th coup attempt didn't, either. We have to face it. Around 49% of the country is entirely OK with this. We have to face it, and act in accordance with that fact, not in denial of it.
posted by tclark at 4:40 PM on May 24, 2022 [54 favorites]
If GOP candidates resoundingly lost even "safe" seats due to the firearm free-for-all, they wouldn't support it any longer. But they don't lose, and they won't lose. Sandy Hook didn't rouse America from its complacency, the January 6th coup attempt didn't, either. We have to face it. Around 49% of the country is entirely OK with this. We have to face it, and act in accordance with that fact, not in denial of it.
posted by tclark at 4:40 PM on May 24, 2022 [54 favorites]
.
posted by mikelieman at 4:42 PM on May 24, 2022
posted by mikelieman at 4:42 PM on May 24, 2022
The proportion of Americans who proactively support Republicans is not 49%. You can't apply statistics about how voters vote to the general population, which includes an enormous number of people who are disenfranchised, as well as a further enormous number of people whose franchise is materially obstructed.
posted by prefpara at 4:45 PM on May 24, 2022 [31 favorites]
posted by prefpara at 4:45 PM on May 24, 2022 [31 favorites]
Where are the GOP thought leaders in this moment?
They're at CPAC. In Hungary. With explicitly racist speakers on the podium. There to learn to emulate racist, fascist Viktor Orbán. Who, upon having his government reelected, declared a military emergency and seized enhanced governmental control
posted by DirtyOldTown at 4:57 PM on May 24, 2022 [61 favorites]
They're at CPAC. In Hungary. With explicitly racist speakers on the podium. There to learn to emulate racist, fascist Viktor Orbán. Who, upon having his government reelected, declared a military emergency and seized enhanced governmental control
posted by DirtyOldTown at 4:57 PM on May 24, 2022 [61 favorites]
Golden State Warriors coach Steve Kerr has some thoughts.
posted by General Malaise at 5:08 PM on May 24, 2022 [32 favorites]
posted by General Malaise at 5:08 PM on May 24, 2022 [32 favorites]
If anybody cares, Biden is to deliver remarks shortly.
posted by bluesky43 at 5:26 PM on May 24, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by bluesky43 at 5:26 PM on May 24, 2022 [1 favorite]
Who is the most effective anti-gun charity, who takes each dollar donated and actually makes a difference with it?
Everytown is worth a look (Charity Navigator rating, ActBlue donation page).
posted by May Kasahara at 5:26 PM on May 24, 2022 [7 favorites]
Everytown is worth a look (Charity Navigator rating, ActBlue donation page).
posted by May Kasahara at 5:26 PM on May 24, 2022 [7 favorites]
Editorial: National suicide plays out one murderous mass shooting at a time. (latimes)
Perhaps this is how it all ends — self-government, self-defense, self-control, liberty, unity, family. Perhaps the fate of the nation is to watch its soul die along with the 18 students and one teacher shot to death Tuesday at an elementary school in Uvalde, Texas. This is us, the American people, on both sides of that gun — and countless other guns on countless playgrounds, shopping centers, streets and homes, killing our children, ourselves and each other. Killing our future.
posted by bluesky43 at 5:29 PM on May 24, 2022 [7 favorites]
Perhaps this is how it all ends — self-government, self-defense, self-control, liberty, unity, family. Perhaps the fate of the nation is to watch its soul die along with the 18 students and one teacher shot to death Tuesday at an elementary school in Uvalde, Texas. This is us, the American people, on both sides of that gun — and countless other guns on countless playgrounds, shopping centers, streets and homes, killing our children, ourselves and each other. Killing our future.
posted by bluesky43 at 5:29 PM on May 24, 2022 [7 favorites]
It’s time we label the Republicans for being what they are - Child Killers. Over and over it needs to be said. Everywhere it needs to be said. No more moments of silence as Steve Kerr said above. It needs to be said loud and clear. No more fucking thoughts and prayers. Saying that means you’re doing nothing. But as many have said here, that is exactly what will happen. Nothing.
posted by njohnson23 at 5:29 PM on May 24, 2022 [12 favorites]
posted by njohnson23 at 5:29 PM on May 24, 2022 [12 favorites]
In 2021, Texas lawmakers lowered the age to carry a handgun to 18.
Texas governor signs bill allowing concealed handguns without permit
posted by y2karl at 5:33 PM on May 24, 2022 [11 favorites]
Previously, if a person in Texas wanted to carry a concealed weapon, they had to go through a background check and undergo four to six hours of training on gun laws, conflict de-escalation and live-fire training, before obtaining the license.Reuters June 17, 2021:
Texas governor signs bill allowing concealed handguns without permit
posted by y2karl at 5:33 PM on May 24, 2022 [11 favorites]
The death toll has gone up further than the original reports.
I have two kids at elementary school. I can’t even imagine. But I can act.
posted by inflatablekiwi at 5:35 PM on May 24, 2022 [3 favorites]
I have two kids at elementary school. I can’t even imagine. But I can act.
posted by inflatablekiwi at 5:35 PM on May 24, 2022 [3 favorites]
#__________________ STRONG
posted by rhizome at 5:36 PM on May 24, 2022 [15 favorites]
posted by rhizome at 5:36 PM on May 24, 2022 [15 favorites]
Abbott, Cruze and Trump will be at the annual NRA meeting in Houston this week.
No guns allowed of course. Can you imagine the sheer density of the hopes and prayers in the atmosphere of that room though?
posted by thatwhichfalls at 5:39 PM on May 24, 2022 [7 favorites]
No guns allowed of course. Can you imagine the sheer density of the hopes and prayers in the atmosphere of that room though?
posted by thatwhichfalls at 5:39 PM on May 24, 2022 [7 favorites]
I’m too sad to do anything. I can even scream at the sky any longer.
posted by interogative mood at 5:40 PM on May 24, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 5:40 PM on May 24, 2022 [6 favorites]
I am so so sad too. I can not imagine, can not imagine what those families and community are experiencing.
posted by bluesky43 at 5:44 PM on May 24, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by bluesky43 at 5:44 PM on May 24, 2022 [2 favorites]
America’s Hands Are Full of Blood
Amid our pain and grief, we must face a bitter truth.
Thoughts and prayers. It began as a cliché. It became a joke. It has putrefied into a national shame.
If tonight, Americans do turn heavenward in pain and grief for the lost children of Uvalde, Texas, they may hear the answer delivered in the Bible through the words of Isaiah:
“And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.”
We will learn more about the 18-year-old killer of elementary-school children: his personality, his ideology, whatever confection of hate and cruelty drove him to his horrible crime. But we already know the answer to one question: Who put the weapon of mass murder into his hand? The answer to that question is that the public policy of this country armed him.
posted by bluesky43 at 5:56 PM on May 24, 2022 [18 favorites]
Amid our pain and grief, we must face a bitter truth.
Thoughts and prayers. It began as a cliché. It became a joke. It has putrefied into a national shame.
If tonight, Americans do turn heavenward in pain and grief for the lost children of Uvalde, Texas, they may hear the answer delivered in the Bible through the words of Isaiah:
“And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.”
We will learn more about the 18-year-old killer of elementary-school children: his personality, his ideology, whatever confection of hate and cruelty drove him to his horrible crime. But we already know the answer to one question: Who put the weapon of mass murder into his hand? The answer to that question is that the public policy of this country armed him.
posted by bluesky43 at 5:56 PM on May 24, 2022 [18 favorites]
.
posted by thebotanyofsouls at 6:01 PM on May 24, 2022
posted by thebotanyofsouls at 6:01 PM on May 24, 2022
This Friday, the day that would have been the children’s first day of summer break, the NRA will begin its annual convention a couple hundred miles away in Houston.
It’s also a good time to remember who’s been behind the NRA’s campaign to flood America with guns.
posted by sjswitzer at 6:06 PM on May 24, 2022 [14 favorites]
It’s also a good time to remember who’s been behind the NRA’s campaign to flood America with guns.
posted by sjswitzer at 6:06 PM on May 24, 2022 [14 favorites]
The truth is, one education under desks...
(Twitter link to national youth poet laureate Amanda Gorman).
(When you see it...)
posted by Preserver at 6:09 PM on May 24, 2022 [10 favorites]
(Twitter link to national youth poet laureate Amanda Gorman).
(When you see it...)
posted by Preserver at 6:09 PM on May 24, 2022 [10 favorites]
> Where were the 212 good guys with a gun during all this?
they're not allowed to carry guns at schools
posted by glonous keming at 6:11 PM on May 24, 2022 [2 favorites]
they're not allowed to carry guns at schools
posted by glonous keming at 6:11 PM on May 24, 2022 [2 favorites]
So something y'all should understand about gun control laws: in rural America, people view the ATF the same way people in some black neighborhoods view the police: as people who sweep in, make life worse, and leave. As something that is never, ever good.
So long as our electoral system is skewed towards rural voters, you have to keep this reality in mind.
posted by ocschwar at 6:28 PM on May 24, 2022 [7 favorites]
So long as our electoral system is skewed towards rural voters, you have to keep this reality in mind.
posted by ocschwar at 6:28 PM on May 24, 2022 [7 favorites]
We have a kindergartener in a school district far from Texas. Got an email this evening from the superintendent offering "thoughts and prayers" in that exact language, along with a battery of procedures for reporting suspicious behavior / see something say something. Not a word about gun control or anything that might be construed as a motion toward change. Not part of the job description, one assumes.
Let's not pretend that this is anything but a grim roulette where you just hope that there are enough school districts in the nation for your own school to not make the next headline. You put your children in school and you assume a risk. This is how we do, apparently, in this country, against any laws of morality or ethics.
posted by lorddimwit at 6:55 PM on May 24, 2022 [18 favorites]
Let's not pretend that this is anything but a grim roulette where you just hope that there are enough school districts in the nation for your own school to not make the next headline. You put your children in school and you assume a risk. This is how we do, apparently, in this country, against any laws of morality or ethics.
posted by lorddimwit at 6:55 PM on May 24, 2022 [18 favorites]
Dear heroes and three percenters who heroically have guns for the rest of us sheep: please fuck off to Hungary or someplace.
I regularly check out and forward the prices of one-way tickets to Somalia for the benefit of commenters who declare they want low taxes and freedom from big government.
No takers so far.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 7:00 PM on May 24, 2022 [7 favorites]
I regularly check out and forward the prices of one-way tickets to Somalia for the benefit of commenters who declare they want low taxes and freedom from big government.
No takers so far.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 7:00 PM on May 24, 2022 [7 favorites]
Guns and their owners/cheerleaders are a cancer on decent society.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 7:03 PM on May 24, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 7:03 PM on May 24, 2022 [8 favorites]
PRO LIFE MY FAT ASS. FUCK YOU, NRA.
Where were the 212 good guys with a gun during all this?
Who needs a gun to be the good guy?
Oh dear, I'm going on a rant. Buckle up, your life preservers are under your seats.
I've thought about this a lot, way too much. And I may have mentally prepared myself for it.
Given the increasing frequency of these shootings and the political instability and the marginalized people I hang out with it's a disgustingly non-zero chance I'm statistically likely to experience this kind of fucked up shit.
There are really good reasons why I almost always carry around a first aid kit and something to use as a tourniquet, and why I've been carrying these around every time I go out.
I already know what I'm going to do if I'm ever in this awful, fucked up situation of an active shooter targeting innocent people I'm charging that asshole and going to try to tackle them so hard they're going to need physical therapy for the rest of their damn life or die trying.
I've already witnessed and put myself in harms way too many times. Most recently confronting someone obviously threatening and contemplating running into a crowd of protesters - literally high school kids - and I was up on the side of the driver side of that lifted truck so fast making meaningful eye contact backed by firm, reasonable words that told the driver to back off with the unspoken subtext that I was about two seconds away from crawling in through the window and start biting him right in the face if necessary - and he flinched. He flinched and his eyes showed his shame and fear of what he was thinking.
And I fucking hate eye contact. I swear most of the truly meaningful eye contact in my life has been from staring down bullies.
I have had some fucked up experiences with random violence including stopping and tackling people with weapons like bats, hammers, broken bottles or knives and if I have any remote chance of taking out a shooter I'm probably going for it and not running except for temporary tactical cover.
And the thing I've learned in those fucked up experiences with bullies and attackers, they're expecting you run and cower in fear and just take it.
That's the whole point and motivation of these kinds of attacks - terrorism by any name. The power to make people afraid and feel terror. They want to make people afraid like they are inside, as afraid as they are of themselves and being vulnerable and real.
I've learned that the kind of people who do this sort of thing absolutely will panic and lose focus if confronted because they're fucking cowards. I've also learned I get jacked up on adrenaline and anger so fast that when confronted with bullies, attackers and abusers and will basically black out and just go for it.
Do I want to get shot? Hell no. Am I motivated by delusions about being a hero? Fuck no, I want to live in a world where real heroes feed the poor, comfort the suffering and plant gardens.
And I know that real guns aren't at all like Hollywood guns. Aiming is difficult standing or at run, especially if you're a coward about to do horrible things. You also don't get blown across the room when you get shot, especially by high powered rifles with jacketed ammo designed to just go right through people. If anything you rarely even feel it until later. And so even if I did get shot I know I have some momentum and some few precious seconds to keep moving and paste the asshole with the gun into the nearest immovable object.
Let's dial that all back.
I'm not going on this rant to be an internet badass. I'm not. I'm no operator. Sure, I know how to shoot a bit and I'm a pretty good shot. No, I don't want a gun. I want to be peaceful, get stoned, eat pie and smell nice flowers. I just want to be a fat patch of warm sunlight with a little bit of rainbow.
Sure, I'd much rather practice some sensible aikido and run or help people run and find shelter until the shooter runs out of bullets. That would be great. I'll sure try to take that option if I don't black out from PTSD and adrenaline and turn into a human missile or sandbag.
I'm going on this rant for two reasons, well, three, if you include venting with a furious and justified anger:
The first reason is to inspire hope anyone else who feels even a microgram of the same kind of way about this to support them and let them know that they're not alone, and you don't need a gun to protect yourself or try to tackle and take out an active shooter.
Unfortunately this happens regularly these days in different contexts, and it just doesn't make the news compared to where the shooter actually racks up a body count. If you dig into the news you'll spot little whiffs of "active shooter disarmed by bystanders or mobs" every so often.
We need more people willing prepared and able to do this kind of thing, to realize that bullies are fucking cowards and overcome our fears of our mortality to JUST FUCKING GO FOR IT and know that others will follow to help if you do and you're the first to move.
When I went through the thing with the protest and the truck I described above I didn't realize there were half a dozen people right behind me until after the situation de-escalated. I've experienced this kind of thing a few times, now, just going for it then realizing there was a righteous and gentle posse right behind me backing me up.
If you can manage it, if you can prepare for it? Try not to hesitate and succumb to the bystander effect and your own fears. Don't think too much about it. Assess, orient and make a decision to fight or flee and commit to it. Try to do something and try, try to prepare mentally to do something proactive whether disarming and rushing a shooter or helping others evacuate or seek shelter or being prepared to give first aid.
Because it's go time. And if there's any crystal clear moment when it's time to risk your gentle, fragile human body into a defensive weapon or shield this is probably it.
You can prepare yourself to make a difference without a gun.
You can get into some martial arts. I especially recommend aikido at first for the de-escalation mindfullness and ease of practice. You can even go cliche and try to find a Krav Maga studio - even a silly fake one as long as it isn't abusive and cultish - just to try to practice disarming techniques with safe dummy weapons and willing sparring partners.
Or mess around with a close friend. I'm serious, just taking some time to wrassle and spar with someone even on a super low impact, low speed and totally self-led kind of way with a fake gun or knife or whatever can give you a lot more confidence and practice at it. At whatever comfort level you can physically manage. This is how sexual assault self defense classes work, too, showing people how to defend against attacks and get much more comfortable with grappling and throwing hands. It's often less about techniques or practiced moves than it is about just getting some experience practicing in a safe, controlled environment to boost personal body awareness and confidence.
Get to know taking risks and movement with your body. Do drills.
In any kind of combat or conflict whether it's defensive or offensive in recorded human history you practice, at least a little, to learn how to move your body or someone else's body and act and react.
And whether or not you want to confront someone you can also take some first aid and field trauma classes or do some homework. Keep a first aid kit. Take a CPR class. Learn how, where and why to use a tourniquet, how to stop someone from bleeding out, how to not hesitate to strip off your shirt to use as bandages, how to take control of a trauma situation and delegate someone calling 911 or taking over applying pressure or aiding you.
No, I don't think it's easy to think and act like this. No, I don't really know how I'd react to being shot at. No, this isn't ok. No, it's not comfortable to do drills.
Yes, I realize I'm also brave through being stupid specifically because I've spent much of my life confronting my own mortality and have some kind of gift of lack of self preservation and IDGAF because of depression. No, I don't have a family to support or much to lose besides my fleeting consciousness and knowing that people would miss me. Maybe this is just an easier thing with me because of these things, or lack of them.
My game theory results for this are that if there's an afterlife I tried to do the right thing. If I get grievously injured and have to live with it for the rest of my I also tried to do the right thing. If there isn't an afterlife? Who cares? I still tried to do the right thing and now there's no talking, thinking meat that used to be me that can perceive anything at all and I'm most comfortable with that most of all.
The third reason for my rant and vent?
The third reason is... well it was going to be a rant directed towards anyone who would think of being a mass murderer who might actually read this in our small corner of the internet and tell them to be afraid of me or people like me simply because I wanted to meet force with force and smash them into a fine paste.
And it is not actually true. I don't really want to tackle anyone at all or kick their ass or hurt anyone. I don't. I will if I must but I harbor no fantasies about it being fun. I've done it with other weapons or people being combatitive, and nothing about it is fun. Everything about it sucks. It's just a few tiny milligrams of what open war is like in a much smaller dose.
War isn't fun. War is hell.
Fear, anger, or violence isn't the answer to or solution for violence. Love is the solution to hate, anger or violence. The antonym of violence is peace.
So many of these active shooters are children themselves, or at best, young adults, and for this I weep. And with war and conflict, so many soldiers are really just children or barely young adults, too, and for this I weep.
I don't actually want them to feel fear of me. Or anyone. Or themselves. Or anything, including their own fears.
I wish I could give them a hug and or try to help comfort their fears long before it got this bad.
I wish I could help them understand them to help them understand themselves and heal whatever it is that's going on that hurt them.
I wish I could feed them or share one of my really nice homemade pies with them until they're fat and sleepy and content with the world.
I wish I could offer them something useful that made them feel better and not have the impulse or desire to harm others because of their pain and share with them that I, too, know what pain and loss is and share that I still think it's going to be ok.
I wish I could help them find some meaningful, productive purpose to their lives.
I wish they had no trauma, that they never experienced hunger, or insecurity, or doubt. I wish that they didn't know what unwanted pain even was.
I wish I could encourage them to make music or art, learn a new language, or dedicate their lives to gazing up at the stars, or appreciating a garden or flower or the endlessly magical, bdeautiful things of our world and find peace.
I wish i could show them the rewards and value of effort and help them see and understand the paradox and differences between unwanted pain or trauma opposed to the pain of effort and personal emotional growth.
I wish I could show them how I and others see things, the world and universe around them - and reassure them of the fact that they and everything they have ever known is made of the hearts of exploding stars and has taken billions of years to come to be and that every gram of it is precious - including themselves - from the smallest subatomic particle to the tiniest mote of dust to the largest galaxies and structures in our universe millions and billions of light years across.
And that this terrible beauty and greatness that surrounds us is good.
I wish I could show them how insignificant and pointless violence is in the face of all that, and how much it shrinks and pales in the stark face of beauty, love and peace.
And yet we all weep for needless loss and perpetuated trauma.
Stay strong. Try to do something. Try to be prepared. Strive to be the change.
Try and hope for peace.
Try to stay in the space of love.
posted by loquacious at 7:11 PM on May 24, 2022 [112 favorites]
Where were the 212 good guys with a gun during all this?
Who needs a gun to be the good guy?
Oh dear, I'm going on a rant. Buckle up, your life preservers are under your seats.
I've thought about this a lot, way too much. And I may have mentally prepared myself for it.
Given the increasing frequency of these shootings and the political instability and the marginalized people I hang out with it's a disgustingly non-zero chance I'm statistically likely to experience this kind of fucked up shit.
There are really good reasons why I almost always carry around a first aid kit and something to use as a tourniquet, and why I've been carrying these around every time I go out.
I already know what I'm going to do if I'm ever in this awful, fucked up situation of an active shooter targeting innocent people I'm charging that asshole and going to try to tackle them so hard they're going to need physical therapy for the rest of their damn life or die trying.
I've already witnessed and put myself in harms way too many times. Most recently confronting someone obviously threatening and contemplating running into a crowd of protesters - literally high school kids - and I was up on the side of the driver side of that lifted truck so fast making meaningful eye contact backed by firm, reasonable words that told the driver to back off with the unspoken subtext that I was about two seconds away from crawling in through the window and start biting him right in the face if necessary - and he flinched. He flinched and his eyes showed his shame and fear of what he was thinking.
And I fucking hate eye contact. I swear most of the truly meaningful eye contact in my life has been from staring down bullies.
I have had some fucked up experiences with random violence including stopping and tackling people with weapons like bats, hammers, broken bottles or knives and if I have any remote chance of taking out a shooter I'm probably going for it and not running except for temporary tactical cover.
And the thing I've learned in those fucked up experiences with bullies and attackers, they're expecting you run and cower in fear and just take it.
That's the whole point and motivation of these kinds of attacks - terrorism by any name. The power to make people afraid and feel terror. They want to make people afraid like they are inside, as afraid as they are of themselves and being vulnerable and real.
I've learned that the kind of people who do this sort of thing absolutely will panic and lose focus if confronted because they're fucking cowards. I've also learned I get jacked up on adrenaline and anger so fast that when confronted with bullies, attackers and abusers and will basically black out and just go for it.
Do I want to get shot? Hell no. Am I motivated by delusions about being a hero? Fuck no, I want to live in a world where real heroes feed the poor, comfort the suffering and plant gardens.
And I know that real guns aren't at all like Hollywood guns. Aiming is difficult standing or at run, especially if you're a coward about to do horrible things. You also don't get blown across the room when you get shot, especially by high powered rifles with jacketed ammo designed to just go right through people. If anything you rarely even feel it until later. And so even if I did get shot I know I have some momentum and some few precious seconds to keep moving and paste the asshole with the gun into the nearest immovable object.
Let's dial that all back.
I'm not going on this rant to be an internet badass. I'm not. I'm no operator. Sure, I know how to shoot a bit and I'm a pretty good shot. No, I don't want a gun. I want to be peaceful, get stoned, eat pie and smell nice flowers. I just want to be a fat patch of warm sunlight with a little bit of rainbow.
Sure, I'd much rather practice some sensible aikido and run or help people run and find shelter until the shooter runs out of bullets. That would be great. I'll sure try to take that option if I don't black out from PTSD and adrenaline and turn into a human missile or sandbag.
I'm going on this rant for two reasons, well, three, if you include venting with a furious and justified anger:
The first reason is to inspire hope anyone else who feels even a microgram of the same kind of way about this to support them and let them know that they're not alone, and you don't need a gun to protect yourself or try to tackle and take out an active shooter.
Unfortunately this happens regularly these days in different contexts, and it just doesn't make the news compared to where the shooter actually racks up a body count. If you dig into the news you'll spot little whiffs of "active shooter disarmed by bystanders or mobs" every so often.
We need more people willing prepared and able to do this kind of thing, to realize that bullies are fucking cowards and overcome our fears of our mortality to JUST FUCKING GO FOR IT and know that others will follow to help if you do and you're the first to move.
When I went through the thing with the protest and the truck I described above I didn't realize there were half a dozen people right behind me until after the situation de-escalated. I've experienced this kind of thing a few times, now, just going for it then realizing there was a righteous and gentle posse right behind me backing me up.
If you can manage it, if you can prepare for it? Try not to hesitate and succumb to the bystander effect and your own fears. Don't think too much about it. Assess, orient and make a decision to fight or flee and commit to it. Try to do something and try, try to prepare mentally to do something proactive whether disarming and rushing a shooter or helping others evacuate or seek shelter or being prepared to give first aid.
Because it's go time. And if there's any crystal clear moment when it's time to risk your gentle, fragile human body into a defensive weapon or shield this is probably it.
You can prepare yourself to make a difference without a gun.
You can get into some martial arts. I especially recommend aikido at first for the de-escalation mindfullness and ease of practice. You can even go cliche and try to find a Krav Maga studio - even a silly fake one as long as it isn't abusive and cultish - just to try to practice disarming techniques with safe dummy weapons and willing sparring partners.
Or mess around with a close friend. I'm serious, just taking some time to wrassle and spar with someone even on a super low impact, low speed and totally self-led kind of way with a fake gun or knife or whatever can give you a lot more confidence and practice at it. At whatever comfort level you can physically manage. This is how sexual assault self defense classes work, too, showing people how to defend against attacks and get much more comfortable with grappling and throwing hands. It's often less about techniques or practiced moves than it is about just getting some experience practicing in a safe, controlled environment to boost personal body awareness and confidence.
Get to know taking risks and movement with your body. Do drills.
In any kind of combat or conflict whether it's defensive or offensive in recorded human history you practice, at least a little, to learn how to move your body or someone else's body and act and react.
And whether or not you want to confront someone you can also take some first aid and field trauma classes or do some homework. Keep a first aid kit. Take a CPR class. Learn how, where and why to use a tourniquet, how to stop someone from bleeding out, how to not hesitate to strip off your shirt to use as bandages, how to take control of a trauma situation and delegate someone calling 911 or taking over applying pressure or aiding you.
No, I don't think it's easy to think and act like this. No, I don't really know how I'd react to being shot at. No, this isn't ok. No, it's not comfortable to do drills.
Yes, I realize I'm also brave through being stupid specifically because I've spent much of my life confronting my own mortality and have some kind of gift of lack of self preservation and IDGAF because of depression. No, I don't have a family to support or much to lose besides my fleeting consciousness and knowing that people would miss me. Maybe this is just an easier thing with me because of these things, or lack of them.
My game theory results for this are that if there's an afterlife I tried to do the right thing. If I get grievously injured and have to live with it for the rest of my I also tried to do the right thing. If there isn't an afterlife? Who cares? I still tried to do the right thing and now there's no talking, thinking meat that used to be me that can perceive anything at all and I'm most comfortable with that most of all.
The third reason for my rant and vent?
The third reason is... well it was going to be a rant directed towards anyone who would think of being a mass murderer who might actually read this in our small corner of the internet and tell them to be afraid of me or people like me simply because I wanted to meet force with force and smash them into a fine paste.
And it is not actually true. I don't really want to tackle anyone at all or kick their ass or hurt anyone. I don't. I will if I must but I harbor no fantasies about it being fun. I've done it with other weapons or people being combatitive, and nothing about it is fun. Everything about it sucks. It's just a few tiny milligrams of what open war is like in a much smaller dose.
War isn't fun. War is hell.
Fear, anger, or violence isn't the answer to or solution for violence. Love is the solution to hate, anger or violence. The antonym of violence is peace.
So many of these active shooters are children themselves, or at best, young adults, and for this I weep. And with war and conflict, so many soldiers are really just children or barely young adults, too, and for this I weep.
I don't actually want them to feel fear of me. Or anyone. Or themselves. Or anything, including their own fears.
I wish I could give them a hug and or try to help comfort their fears long before it got this bad.
I wish I could help them understand them to help them understand themselves and heal whatever it is that's going on that hurt them.
I wish I could feed them or share one of my really nice homemade pies with them until they're fat and sleepy and content with the world.
I wish I could offer them something useful that made them feel better and not have the impulse or desire to harm others because of their pain and share with them that I, too, know what pain and loss is and share that I still think it's going to be ok.
I wish I could help them find some meaningful, productive purpose to their lives.
I wish they had no trauma, that they never experienced hunger, or insecurity, or doubt. I wish that they didn't know what unwanted pain even was.
I wish I could encourage them to make music or art, learn a new language, or dedicate their lives to gazing up at the stars, or appreciating a garden or flower or the endlessly magical, bdeautiful things of our world and find peace.
I wish i could show them the rewards and value of effort and help them see and understand the paradox and differences between unwanted pain or trauma opposed to the pain of effort and personal emotional growth.
I wish I could show them how I and others see things, the world and universe around them - and reassure them of the fact that they and everything they have ever known is made of the hearts of exploding stars and has taken billions of years to come to be and that every gram of it is precious - including themselves - from the smallest subatomic particle to the tiniest mote of dust to the largest galaxies and structures in our universe millions and billions of light years across.
And that this terrible beauty and greatness that surrounds us is good.
I wish I could show them how insignificant and pointless violence is in the face of all that, and how much it shrinks and pales in the stark face of beauty, love and peace.
And yet we all weep for needless loss and perpetuated trauma.
Stay strong. Try to do something. Try to be prepared. Strive to be the change.
Try and hope for peace.
Try to stay in the space of love.
posted by loquacious at 7:11 PM on May 24, 2022 [112 favorites]
I'm sure everything will change after tomorrow's mass shooting
posted by SystematicAbuse at 7:19 PM on May 24, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by SystematicAbuse at 7:19 PM on May 24, 2022 [7 favorites]
...Oh dear, I'm going on a rant. Buckle up, your life preservers are under your seats.
Your cognomen is eloquentaciously well earned today.
posted by y2karl at 7:20 PM on May 24, 2022 [16 favorites]
Your cognomen is eloquentaciously well earned today.
posted by y2karl at 7:20 PM on May 24, 2022 [16 favorites]
This Friday, the day that would have been the children’s first day of summer break, the NRA will begin its annual convention a couple hundred miles away in Houston.
I wish I could afford to stand outside the convention with gruesome pictures, yelling at the baby-killers. See how they fucking like it.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 7:23 PM on May 24, 2022 [40 favorites]
I wish I could afford to stand outside the convention with gruesome pictures, yelling at the baby-killers. See how they fucking like it.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 7:23 PM on May 24, 2022 [40 favorites]
> >Where were the 212 good guys with a gun during all this?
> they're not allowed to carry guns at schools
Set aside the fact that these 212 mass shootings did not all take place at schools; is your glib insinuation here that the presence of more guns at schools would result in less shootings at schools? Because that’s not just a stupefyingly tone-deaf drive-by snark to dump into this thread, it’s also, like, fucking incorrect
posted by churl at 7:29 PM on May 24, 2022 [37 favorites]
> they're not allowed to carry guns at schools
Set aside the fact that these 212 mass shootings did not all take place at schools; is your glib insinuation here that the presence of more guns at schools would result in less shootings at schools? Because that’s not just a stupefyingly tone-deaf drive-by snark to dump into this thread, it’s also, like, fucking incorrect
posted by churl at 7:29 PM on May 24, 2022 [37 favorites]
The Columbine shooting was in 1999
Really hard to shake the feeling that the USA is a driverless car racing toward a cliff edge at top speed with a cinder block on the gas pedal
posted by SystematicAbuse at 7:30 PM on May 24, 2022 [16 favorites]
Really hard to shake the feeling that the USA is a driverless car racing toward a cliff edge at top speed with a cinder block on the gas pedal
posted by SystematicAbuse at 7:30 PM on May 24, 2022 [16 favorites]
The guy that sold the gun used in Buffalo said 'it was a routine transaction', nothing unusual to raise any suspicion of what was going to happen. If that 18yo went to a liquor store they would have made him show ID and he couldn't buy a six pack.
It's easier for a teenager to buy a gun than beer. You straight-up outlawed beer once, remember that? A whole-ass constitutional amendment to stop people getting lit. I know you can do this! It's fucking time FFS.
posted by adept256 at 7:35 PM on May 24, 2022 [48 favorites]
It's easier for a teenager to buy a gun than beer. You straight-up outlawed beer once, remember that? A whole-ass constitutional amendment to stop people getting lit. I know you can do this! It's fucking time FFS.
posted by adept256 at 7:35 PM on May 24, 2022 [48 favorites]
@POTUS:
These kinds of mass shootings rarely happen elsewhere in the world.@Dominos137:
Why are we willing to live with this carnage? Why do we keep letting this happen? Where in God’s name is our backbone to have the courage to deal with it?
It’s time to turn this pain into action.
my brother in christ you are literally the presidentposted by DirtyOldTown at 7:41 PM on May 24, 2022 [70 favorites]
According to CNN, law enforcement was already present and confronted the shooter at the school when he arrived, but it clearly did f-all anyway.
posted by meowzilla at 7:42 PM on May 24, 2022 [13 favorites]
posted by meowzilla at 7:42 PM on May 24, 2022 [13 favorites]
Sgt. Erick Estrada of the Texas Dept of Public Safety tells @andersoncooper the shooter crashed his car near the school, got out with a gun and wearing body armor, was engaged by law enforcement, but made his way into the school anyway and went classroom to classroom shooting (Twitter)
To Protect and Serve
posted by thatwhichfalls at 7:47 PM on May 24, 2022 [18 favorites]
To Protect and Serve
posted by thatwhichfalls at 7:47 PM on May 24, 2022 [18 favorites]
Washington Post update, at 9:34 p.m.: "Texas Department of Public Safety Sgt. Erick Estrada said 18 children and one adult are confirmed dead. Estrada said there were two shootings Tuesday. The first was at a residence neighbors identified as the home of the alleged shooter’s grandmother. Salvador Rolando Ramos allegedly shot the woman, and she was airlifted to San Antonio for treatment."
Previous update, at 9:13 p.m.: "Santos Valdez Jr., 18, said he has known Salvador Rolando Ramos, whom authorities identified as the gunman in the Uvalde school massacre, since early elementary school. They were friends, he said, until Ramos’s behavior began to deteriorate recently. Ramos lived with his mother and sometimes his grandmother, Valdez said, adding that Ramos’s grandmother taught at their elementary school — a different school than the site of Tuesday’s shooting."
posted by Iris Gambol at 7:48 PM on May 24, 2022 [3 favorites]
Previous update, at 9:13 p.m.: "Santos Valdez Jr., 18, said he has known Salvador Rolando Ramos, whom authorities identified as the gunman in the Uvalde school massacre, since early elementary school. They were friends, he said, until Ramos’s behavior began to deteriorate recently. Ramos lived with his mother and sometimes his grandmother, Valdez said, adding that Ramos’s grandmother taught at their elementary school — a different school than the site of Tuesday’s shooting."
posted by Iris Gambol at 7:48 PM on May 24, 2022 [3 favorites]
War isn't fun. War is hell.
Part of the problem, however, is that the places adjacent to war can be pretty fuckin’ fun. Like literally, if Hun Sen was blowing up the village next door, but not the village you were in, then that was a fun-ass time with everything you ever wanted available at a low-low price, as long as you had enough money to start with.
…enough money to get out ASAP, no matter what, and all your extra money can go straight to fun wacky times with no rules, no consequences, just music montage lunacy. How many different drugs can you buy in one sitting at a bar? Let’s find out!
Which is, perhaps not surprisingly, one of the reasons why the hyper-rich like the US. Just music montage lunacy, and they can always get out if they want to.
I mean, you can’t get out, but when was the last time you mattered anyway?
posted by aramaic at 7:55 PM on May 24, 2022 [6 favorites]
Part of the problem, however, is that the places adjacent to war can be pretty fuckin’ fun. Like literally, if Hun Sen was blowing up the village next door, but not the village you were in, then that was a fun-ass time with everything you ever wanted available at a low-low price, as long as you had enough money to start with.
…enough money to get out ASAP, no matter what, and all your extra money can go straight to fun wacky times with no rules, no consequences, just music montage lunacy. How many different drugs can you buy in one sitting at a bar? Let’s find out!
Which is, perhaps not surprisingly, one of the reasons why the hyper-rich like the US. Just music montage lunacy, and they can always get out if they want to.
I mean, you can’t get out, but when was the last time you mattered anyway?
posted by aramaic at 7:55 PM on May 24, 2022 [6 favorites]
they're not allowed to carry guns at schools
Texas has been at the forefront of trying to arm teachers. I don't know if many schools have actually taken them up on it.
Of course as noted above, the shooter did meet armed resistance and shot his way in anyway.
posted by BungaDunga at 7:56 PM on May 24, 2022 [10 favorites]
Texas has been at the forefront of trying to arm teachers. I don't know if many schools have actually taken them up on it.
Of course as noted above, the shooter did meet armed resistance and shot his way in anyway.
posted by BungaDunga at 7:56 PM on May 24, 2022 [10 favorites]
14 students killed in an elementary school shooting in Uvalde, a heavily Latino city in Texas. Border Patrol also on the scene. I pray for those parents fearing that their kids are dead and debating whether or not they'll be arrested if they go to find out. -- 2:04 p.m. tweet by Dr. William Lopez, professor at the University of Michigan School of Public Health, author of Separated: Family and Community in the Aftermath of an Immigration Raid
posted by Iris Gambol at 8:07 PM on May 24, 2022 [18 favorites]
posted by Iris Gambol at 8:07 PM on May 24, 2022 [18 favorites]
Per Twitter, families of children at the school have been asked to describe the clothes they were wearing and to provide DNA samples to assist with victim identification.
posted by the duck by the oboe at 8:11 PM on May 24, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by the duck by the oboe at 8:11 PM on May 24, 2022 [4 favorites]
This is a moment where @POTUS could post, "and so tomorrow morning I will introduce a bill to repeal the 2nd amendment" (or whatever the hell you do to get that train moving), or he could not. One day the democratic leadership in this country will finally realize that a winning strategy is one that actually stands for something. Make it a fight, don't step aside while our kids our killed. It's called leadership. Post pictures of those dead kids with bullet holes in their little bodies with the message Republicans support murder in attack ads for every republican running for every post in this entire country.
posted by lab.beetle at 8:13 PM on May 24, 2022 [21 favorites]
posted by lab.beetle at 8:13 PM on May 24, 2022 [21 favorites]
I recently visited a friend who just moved to a brand new, suburban subdivision. In the middle of it all was a cold, tall, concrete building completely devoid of trees and surrounded by ten foot high barbed wire fences and parking lots.
Yes, it was a school.
I wonder if in the name of freedom, we're going to lock up all of our children in bulletproof classrooms under armed guard.
posted by meowzilla at 8:20 PM on May 24, 2022 [16 favorites]
Yes, it was a school.
I wonder if in the name of freedom, we're going to lock up all of our children in bulletproof classrooms under armed guard.
posted by meowzilla at 8:20 PM on May 24, 2022 [16 favorites]
Your cognomen is eloquentaciously well earned today.
There's also at least two acutely argumentative and completely wrong parts and I want to head off this potential derail.
The first and least important wrong idea of my rant was that subatomic particles or atoms below iron were born in the hearts of stars. I lost my metaphor, let's move on.
The other more important mistake and wrong part is any implication of asking anyone who is already doing this work to to do even more emotional labor, protecting others or even further self sacrifice or influencing anyone into lethally risky defensive behavior.
But I do want to encourage anyone with any amount of fight or ability or bravery or merest inkling or spark to do these confrontational but protective inclinations to follow that instinct and even do something to be prepared to protect those who can't and help. Anyone, anywhere who thinks about this kind of peaceful, defensive confrontation. Anything. First aid classes and kits and more.
There's a long and painful history of marginalized people bearing the weight of change and resistance.
There's also a history of critical masses of people less marginalized affecting change by standing up for the marginalized and making the effort to be prepared to do so.
posted by loquacious at 8:26 PM on May 24, 2022 [15 favorites]
There's also at least two acutely argumentative and completely wrong parts and I want to head off this potential derail.
The first and least important wrong idea of my rant was that subatomic particles or atoms below iron were born in the hearts of stars. I lost my metaphor, let's move on.
The other more important mistake and wrong part is any implication of asking anyone who is already doing this work to to do even more emotional labor, protecting others or even further self sacrifice or influencing anyone into lethally risky defensive behavior.
But I do want to encourage anyone with any amount of fight or ability or bravery or merest inkling or spark to do these confrontational but protective inclinations to follow that instinct and even do something to be prepared to protect those who can't and help. Anyone, anywhere who thinks about this kind of peaceful, defensive confrontation. Anything. First aid classes and kits and more.
There's a long and painful history of marginalized people bearing the weight of change and resistance.
There's also a history of critical masses of people less marginalized affecting change by standing up for the marginalized and making the effort to be prepared to do so.
posted by loquacious at 8:26 PM on May 24, 2022 [15 favorites]
a driverless car racing toward a cliff edge at top speed with a cinder block on the gas pedal
Froomb?
posted by vrakatar at 8:27 PM on May 24, 2022
Froomb?
posted by vrakatar at 8:27 PM on May 24, 2022
It's not a 'holes in their little bodies' scenario, though, is it? These children were attacked by a man young enough to have learned the same 'active shooter' drills they did. He'd know the hiding places. The damage he inflicted during the slaughtering rendered the kids unrecognizable and now DNA samples are needed for proper identification.
posted by Iris Gambol at 8:27 PM on May 24, 2022 [28 favorites]
posted by Iris Gambol at 8:27 PM on May 24, 2022 [28 favorites]
they're not allowed to carry guns at schools
The shooter here was engaged by at least three armed officers/guards before carrying out this attack and went in and massacred the kids anyway.
Anyone peddling arming more folks as any kind of solution is complicit.
posted by Justinian at 8:34 PM on May 24, 2022 [75 favorites]
The shooter here was engaged by at least three armed officers/guards before carrying out this attack and went in and massacred the kids anyway.
Anyone peddling arming more folks as any kind of solution is complicit.
posted by Justinian at 8:34 PM on May 24, 2022 [75 favorites]
If GOP candidates resoundingly lost even "safe" seats due to the firearm free-for-all, they wouldn't support it any longer. But they don't lose, and they won't lose.
I don’t disagree with this at all but… I’d argue that in many cases, GOP safety is caused by an inept Democratic opponent. In 2020, the New Mexico Democratic incumbent for the House 2nd District featured campaign ads of her firing off guns and supporting the local fracking industry. She lost by 7%.
There are still too many Dems who believe they can win by being Republican Lite. I think in most cases, Republicans will choose the Republican and Democrats will stay home.
I don’t want to give up… because what happened today shouldn’t make me.
posted by jabo at 8:53 PM on May 24, 2022 [14 favorites]
I don’t disagree with this at all but… I’d argue that in many cases, GOP safety is caused by an inept Democratic opponent. In 2020, the New Mexico Democratic incumbent for the House 2nd District featured campaign ads of her firing off guns and supporting the local fracking industry. She lost by 7%.
There are still too many Dems who believe they can win by being Republican Lite. I think in most cases, Republicans will choose the Republican and Democrats will stay home.
I don’t want to give up… because what happened today shouldn’t make me.
posted by jabo at 8:53 PM on May 24, 2022 [14 favorites]
This is a moment where @POTUS could post, "and so tomorrow morning I will introduce a bill to repeal the 2nd amendment" (or whatever the hell you do to get that train moving), or he could not.
The President cannot introduce a bill. Best he could do is to request Democratic legislators to do so. Which would be good.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 8:55 PM on May 24, 2022 [13 favorites]
The President cannot introduce a bill. Best he could do is to request Democratic legislators to do so. Which would be good.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 8:55 PM on May 24, 2022 [13 favorites]
Let's not pretend that this is anything but a grim roulette where you just hope that there are enough school districts in the nation for your own school to not make the next headline. You put your children in school and you assume a risk.
It comes to me that for a significant number of Republicans, this is a feature rather than a bug, because destroying public education is also one of their main goals. The more of a nightmare it becomes to send your kids off to school every morning, the less resistance they're going to face from nice white suburban parents when they inevitably begin dismantling public schools in earnest.
I'm tired. I hate these people. They have explicitly shown us, for decades, that they are prepared and indeed eager to murder us and our children to get what they want. It's time to start acting like it.
posted by peakes at 9:02 PM on May 24, 2022 [70 favorites]
It comes to me that for a significant number of Republicans, this is a feature rather than a bug, because destroying public education is also one of their main goals. The more of a nightmare it becomes to send your kids off to school every morning, the less resistance they're going to face from nice white suburban parents when they inevitably begin dismantling public schools in earnest.
I'm tired. I hate these people. They have explicitly shown us, for decades, that they are prepared and indeed eager to murder us and our children to get what they want. It's time to start acting like it.
posted by peakes at 9:02 PM on May 24, 2022 [70 favorites]
Uvalde, a heavily Latino city in Texas.
Oy. Who will be the first asshole political candidate to campaign on oh noes the brown people are bad?
posted by Melismata at 9:04 PM on May 24, 2022 [3 favorites]
Oy. Who will be the first asshole political candidate to campaign on oh noes the brown people are bad?
posted by Melismata at 9:04 PM on May 24, 2022 [3 favorites]
Yeah these events are never just about the guns (mental health, online radicalization, disintegration of community), but the second amendment needs to die in a fire. It’s the dumbest amendment and has not protected anyone from tyranny that I know of. Guns have been around a long time, but not in their current form and not in a society where a tiny percentage of people are living on the frontier and fighting off rabid bears. All this bumper stock this and define an assault rifle that is pussyfooting around. I mean, we are exporting guns to Mexico. Why isn’t that a federal crime?
posted by freecellwizard at 9:07 PM on May 24, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by freecellwizard at 9:07 PM on May 24, 2022 [7 favorites]
If you've never been intimately involved with a post-mortem (in the very literally sense) of a mass shooting, please hold back for at least a few days after one before telling people what _would_ have worked.
posted by Candleman at 9:11 PM on May 24, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by Candleman at 9:11 PM on May 24, 2022 [6 favorites]
(not aimed at people advocating for gun control but others)
posted by Candleman at 9:12 PM on May 24, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by Candleman at 9:12 PM on May 24, 2022 [2 favorites]
WaPo update updated, it's 19 children and two adults dead.
Last week, after protesters appeared outside the homes of Supreme Court justices (USA Today): Attorney General Merrick Garland Wednesday condemned rising threats targeting Supreme Court justices amid continuing protests over a leaked draft opinion that would overturn the landmark abortion decision Roe v. Wade. [...] “The rise of violence and unlawful threats of violence directed at those who serve the public is unacceptable and dangerous to our democracy,” Garland said. “I want to be clear: while people vote, argue, and debate in a democracy, we must not – we cannot – allow violence or unlawful threats of violence to permeate our national life. The Justice Department will not tolerate violence or threats of violence against judges or any other public servants at work, home, or any other location.”
Teachers and administrators at public schools are public servants.
Also, per the Washington Post, Senate Majority Leader Schumer's "moved to put two House-passed gun-control bills on the Senate calendar for possible action. One would establish universal background checks for commercial gun sales; the other would extend the period to perform a federal background check on a gun buyer from three to 10 days." The Senate breaks for a one-week recess on Thursday; no votes could take place until next month, and "Several Democrats including Sens. Chris Murphy (Conn.) and Jon Tester (Mont.), told reporters Tuesday evening that they preferred to try to jump-start bipartisan negotiations to find a bill that could actually pass rather than simply hold another doomed-to-fail “show vote.”"
posted by Iris Gambol at 9:23 PM on May 24, 2022 [14 favorites]
Last week, after protesters appeared outside the homes of Supreme Court justices (USA Today): Attorney General Merrick Garland Wednesday condemned rising threats targeting Supreme Court justices amid continuing protests over a leaked draft opinion that would overturn the landmark abortion decision Roe v. Wade. [...] “The rise of violence and unlawful threats of violence directed at those who serve the public is unacceptable and dangerous to our democracy,” Garland said. “I want to be clear: while people vote, argue, and debate in a democracy, we must not – we cannot – allow violence or unlawful threats of violence to permeate our national life. The Justice Department will not tolerate violence or threats of violence against judges or any other public servants at work, home, or any other location.”
Teachers and administrators at public schools are public servants.
Also, per the Washington Post, Senate Majority Leader Schumer's "moved to put two House-passed gun-control bills on the Senate calendar for possible action. One would establish universal background checks for commercial gun sales; the other would extend the period to perform a federal background check on a gun buyer from three to 10 days." The Senate breaks for a one-week recess on Thursday; no votes could take place until next month, and "Several Democrats including Sens. Chris Murphy (Conn.) and Jon Tester (Mont.), told reporters Tuesday evening that they preferred to try to jump-start bipartisan negotiations to find a bill that could actually pass rather than simply hold another doomed-to-fail “show vote.”"
posted by Iris Gambol at 9:23 PM on May 24, 2022 [14 favorites]
Why isn’t that a federal crime?
Because someone’s getting a cut of that sale, and “The business of America is Business.” If the coins are stacking up higher than the bodies, for a lot of people, that’s a win.
Fuck them all, right back to Ronnie and his bullshit cowboy identity that propagated and further perverted the “strong independent man” myth on through GI Joe and Rambo and all the other wonderful icons of our “a gun solves any problem” cultural heritage that fed this fire still burning today.
Fuck the bottom feeders of the arms industry and the propping up they get from the US Congress. No way they’d be profitable if it weren’t for the regulatory capture that guarantees an ever expanding market with friction-free access. Weaklings kept alive at the government teat. They call themselves titans of business but every one of them is a welfare addict.
(I am all for welfare and government assistance for a wide swath of those in need. I just like the idea of showing some murderous mouth-breathers their hypocrisy. Rant over.)
posted by armoir from antproof case at 9:25 PM on May 24, 2022 [10 favorites]
Because someone’s getting a cut of that sale, and “The business of America is Business.” If the coins are stacking up higher than the bodies, for a lot of people, that’s a win.
Fuck them all, right back to Ronnie and his bullshit cowboy identity that propagated and further perverted the “strong independent man” myth on through GI Joe and Rambo and all the other wonderful icons of our “a gun solves any problem” cultural heritage that fed this fire still burning today.
Fuck the bottom feeders of the arms industry and the propping up they get from the US Congress. No way they’d be profitable if it weren’t for the regulatory capture that guarantees an ever expanding market with friction-free access. Weaklings kept alive at the government teat. They call themselves titans of business but every one of them is a welfare addict.
(I am all for welfare and government assistance for a wide swath of those in need. I just like the idea of showing some murderous mouth-breathers their hypocrisy. Rant over.)
posted by armoir from antproof case at 9:25 PM on May 24, 2022 [10 favorites]
The President cannot introduce a bill. Best he could do is to request Democratic legislators to do so. Which would be good.
Meant to add, this is why the midterms are extremely important this time. I’m particularly excited, because we have a real chance to flip my Congressional district for the first time in a while.
It comes to me that for a significant number of Republicans, this is a feature rather than a bug, because destroying public education is also one of their main goals.
YES. My first thought was, as always, that if I had a school-age child and homeschooling was an even remotely practical option, I would be seriously considering it right now. Which would unfortunately be playing right into the hands of the DeVos types, who would like nothing better than to close every public school in the nation.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 9:26 PM on May 24, 2022 [11 favorites]
Meant to add, this is why the midterms are extremely important this time. I’m particularly excited, because we have a real chance to flip my Congressional district for the first time in a while.
It comes to me that for a significant number of Republicans, this is a feature rather than a bug, because destroying public education is also one of their main goals.
YES. My first thought was, as always, that if I had a school-age child and homeschooling was an even remotely practical option, I would be seriously considering it right now. Which would unfortunately be playing right into the hands of the DeVos types, who would like nothing better than to close every public school in the nation.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 9:26 PM on May 24, 2022 [11 favorites]
I just re-read a portion of loquacious’ post, and thought, i wish we could get a few news outlets to replace
‘gunman’
with
‘state-sponsored terrorist’
posted by armoir from antproof case at 9:36 PM on May 24, 2022 [5 favorites]
‘gunman’
with
‘state-sponsored terrorist’
posted by armoir from antproof case at 9:36 PM on May 24, 2022 [5 favorites]
"We build a fire in a powder magazine, then double the fire department to put it out. We inflame wild beasts with the smell of blood, and then innocently wonder at the wave of brutal appetite that sweeps the land as a consequence."
— Mark Twain, 1907
posted by Capt. Renault at 9:49 PM on May 24, 2022 [28 favorites]
— Mark Twain, 1907
posted by Capt. Renault at 9:49 PM on May 24, 2022 [28 favorites]
Upthread: Golden State Warriors coach Steve Kerr has some thoughts. -- posted by General Malaise at 8:08 PM on May 24
When Steve Kerr was 18, his father, Dr. Malcolm Kerr, then the president of the American University of Beirut, was shot to death in the hallway outside his office. 2018: Warriors Coach Steve Kerr Speaks Out Against the NRA; Steve Kerr on Florida school shooting: 'It doesn't seem to matter to our government'; Kerr at a town hall with Marjory Stoneman Douglas High (in Parkland) alum, Matt Deitsch, encouraging students to register to vote; after the school shooting in Santa Fe (Texas), Kerr tweeted, "Over 75% of school shootings start with kids having access to unsecured and/or unsupervised guns at home. Gun owners have a responsibility to store their firearms securely. We must do more to #EndFamilyFire #SantaFeHighSchool". 2019: Steve Kerr Wears Gun-Control Shirt At NBA Finals' Game 2.
posted by Iris Gambol at 9:54 PM on May 24, 2022 [40 favorites]
When Steve Kerr was 18, his father, Dr. Malcolm Kerr, then the president of the American University of Beirut, was shot to death in the hallway outside his office. 2018: Warriors Coach Steve Kerr Speaks Out Against the NRA; Steve Kerr on Florida school shooting: 'It doesn't seem to matter to our government'; Kerr at a town hall with Marjory Stoneman Douglas High (in Parkland) alum, Matt Deitsch, encouraging students to register to vote; after the school shooting in Santa Fe (Texas), Kerr tweeted, "Over 75% of school shootings start with kids having access to unsecured and/or unsupervised guns at home. Gun owners have a responsibility to store their firearms securely. We must do more to #EndFamilyFire #SantaFeHighSchool". 2019: Steve Kerr Wears Gun-Control Shirt At NBA Finals' Game 2.
posted by Iris Gambol at 9:54 PM on May 24, 2022 [40 favorites]
Work around the second amendment
A reminder: For about two hundred years, the meaning of the Second Amendment was clear and mostly undisputed, despite the gnarled syntax of the text itself. Generations of Supreme Court and academic opinion held that the amendment referred only to the privileges belonging to state militias. The late Chief Justice Warren E. Burger said, in 1991, that the idea that the Second Amendment conferred a right for individuals to bear arms was “a fraud on the American public.”
Change the court and there'd be no need to work around. Though I guess the workarounds will be faster in the short term.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 10:12 PM on May 24, 2022 [52 favorites]
A reminder: For about two hundred years, the meaning of the Second Amendment was clear and mostly undisputed, despite the gnarled syntax of the text itself. Generations of Supreme Court and academic opinion held that the amendment referred only to the privileges belonging to state militias. The late Chief Justice Warren E. Burger said, in 1991, that the idea that the Second Amendment conferred a right for individuals to bear arms was “a fraud on the American public.”
Change the court and there'd be no need to work around. Though I guess the workarounds will be faster in the short term.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 10:12 PM on May 24, 2022 [52 favorites]
I think it's important that you can't watch a basketball game without getting the message. If that's your refuge where you go to escape this shit, I understand, but consider those words 'refuge' and 'escape' in this context, and consider who needs it more.
posted by adept256 at 10:14 PM on May 24, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by adept256 at 10:14 PM on May 24, 2022 [7 favorites]
A reminder: For about two hundred years, the meaning of the Second Amendment was clear and mostly undisputed, despite the gnarled syntax of the text itself. Generations of Supreme Court and academic opinion held that the amendment referred only to the privileges belonging to state militias. The late Chief Justice Warren E. Burger said, in 1991, that the idea that the Second Amendment conferred a right for individuals to bear arms was “a fraud on the American public.”
It was one of the first projects of the Federalist Society - the legitimization of what was a fringe legal theory - the Second Amendment as an individual right.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:20 PM on May 24, 2022 [28 favorites]
It was one of the first projects of the Federalist Society - the legitimization of what was a fringe legal theory - the Second Amendment as an individual right.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:20 PM on May 24, 2022 [28 favorites]
I hate the framing of this article because those are not the only two significant mass shootings in the past week, honestly, which is a fucked up and cursed thing to say and to have to note.
posted by yueliang at 10:27 PM on May 24, 2022 [10 favorites]
posted by yueliang at 10:27 PM on May 24, 2022 [10 favorites]
How many of us here, I wonder, have direct experience with being in a community in which people were killed in a mass shooting? Probably quite a few of us, statistically. I have. I hate this fucking world sometimes.
posted by biogeo at 10:35 PM on May 24, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by biogeo at 10:35 PM on May 24, 2022 [2 favorites]
This world? Non-american mefites don't have any experience with this.
posted by adept256 at 10:42 PM on May 24, 2022 [28 favorites]
posted by adept256 at 10:42 PM on May 24, 2022 [28 favorites]
Who will be the first asshole political candidate to campaign on oh noes the brown people are bad?
Rep. Paul Gosar (R-Fuckheads) has posted about how the shooter was transgender (which he was not - it’s a 4chan transphobe op), so he’s ahead of the “who do we want to raise hatred against today?” tide. I’m sure the racists are preparing as well, though, so we’ll see that quintessential bullshittery soon enough.
posted by mephron at 10:48 PM on May 24, 2022 [16 favorites]
Rep. Paul Gosar (R-Fuckheads) has posted about how the shooter was transgender (which he was not - it’s a 4chan transphobe op), so he’s ahead of the “who do we want to raise hatred against today?” tide. I’m sure the racists are preparing as well, though, so we’ll see that quintessential bullshittery soon enough.
posted by mephron at 10:48 PM on May 24, 2022 [16 favorites]
One day we'll find out Gosar has a tumor the size of a baseball in his brain. I'm not the first to say it. His problem is being misdiagnosed as being a normal republican politician.
posted by adept256 at 11:09 PM on May 24, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by adept256 at 11:09 PM on May 24, 2022 [6 favorites]
According to the daily beast Ramos had been harassing his female coworkers at his job. Jezebel points out the link between domestic violence and mass shootings.
It starts with these red flags being ignored.
posted by brujita at 11:12 PM on May 24, 2022 [39 favorites]
It starts with these red flags being ignored.
posted by brujita at 11:12 PM on May 24, 2022 [39 favorites]
In no way do I mean this as a threat or a wish, but until the child/children/grandchild of those (lawmakers/lobbyists) responsible for doing nothing die in a tragedy like this, I can’t imagine there will be any change.
posted by From Bklyn at 11:15 PM on May 24, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by From Bklyn at 11:15 PM on May 24, 2022 [2 favorites]
Paul Gosar is an oxygen bandit of the highest order. Seldom has so much congressional respiration resulted in such little good for the country he serves. I mean, at least with Palin we could get an occasional laugh.
posted by armoir from antproof case at 11:20 PM on May 24, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by armoir from antproof case at 11:20 PM on May 24, 2022 [1 favorite]
How many of us here, I wonder, have direct experience with being in a community in which people were killed in a mass shooting? Probably quite a few of us, statistically. I have. I hate this fucking world sometimes.
Yes. I was a bandmate with Alicia Cardenas, who was well known and loved in Denver's art scene. She was murdered when someone decided to go on a rampage through Denver murdering tattooists of all people.
My local supermarket, King Soopers was the scene of a terrible mass shooting here in Boulder, where a man shot and killed ten people for no real reason anyone can really understand. He continues to be incompetent to stand trial.
I remember getting news of Columbine. I was in a diner in NYC that looked suspiciously like the diner in Seinfield watching news of it on TV. We had just did a tour of the World Trade Center - those fell within two years.
To your point, I don't think I'm all that unique. Many people have stories like mine.
posted by alex_skazat at 11:34 PM on May 24, 2022 [21 favorites]
Yes. I was a bandmate with Alicia Cardenas, who was well known and loved in Denver's art scene. She was murdered when someone decided to go on a rampage through Denver murdering tattooists of all people.
My local supermarket, King Soopers was the scene of a terrible mass shooting here in Boulder, where a man shot and killed ten people for no real reason anyone can really understand. He continues to be incompetent to stand trial.
I remember getting news of Columbine. I was in a diner in NYC that looked suspiciously like the diner in Seinfield watching news of it on TV. We had just did a tour of the World Trade Center - those fell within two years.
To your point, I don't think I'm all that unique. Many people have stories like mine.
posted by alex_skazat at 11:34 PM on May 24, 2022 [21 favorites]
Survivorship bias is a hell of a drug.
The people who get murdered don't get to vote.
posted by WalkingAround at 12:44 AM on May 25, 2022 [5 favorites]
The people who get murdered don't get to vote.
posted by WalkingAround at 12:44 AM on May 25, 2022 [5 favorites]
More mass shootings in the US than there have been days in the year so far.
posted by GallonOfAlan at 12:57 AM on May 25, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by GallonOfAlan at 12:57 AM on May 25, 2022 [6 favorites]
Jezebel points out the link between domestic violence and mass shootings.
It starts with these red flags being ignored.
Violence against women always, always leads to more violence. Harassment of women always leads to escalation. It is not surprise he apparently killed his grandmother first. Dehumanization of others is a giant red flag for this and it is always ignored and I am tired, tired, tired. Everyone who ignored the harassment because “he’s just a teenager” is also a part of the problem.
posted by corb at 1:04 AM on May 25, 2022 [60 favorites]
It starts with these red flags being ignored.
Violence against women always, always leads to more violence. Harassment of women always leads to escalation. It is not surprise he apparently killed his grandmother first. Dehumanization of others is a giant red flag for this and it is always ignored and I am tired, tired, tired. Everyone who ignored the harassment because “he’s just a teenager” is also a part of the problem.
posted by corb at 1:04 AM on May 25, 2022 [60 favorites]
I just recalled that time when then-VP Pence spoke at the NRA convention, and no guns were allowed on the premises.
posted by Harald74 at 1:09 AM on May 25, 2022 [10 favorites]
posted by Harald74 at 1:09 AM on May 25, 2022 [10 favorites]
During a school shooting, children hide under their desks.
After a school shooting, Republicans hide under theirs.
posted by chavenet at 1:18 AM on May 25, 2022 [25 favorites]
After a school shooting, Republicans hide under theirs.
posted by chavenet at 1:18 AM on May 25, 2022 [25 favorites]
This world? Non-american mefites don't have any experience with this.
Ejem…
In 2015, official reports of the U.S. government and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) revealed that over the last years, Mexican cartels improved their firearm power, and that 71% of their weapons come from the U.S.
Mexicans have a constitutional right to own firearms, but legal purchase from the single Mexican gun shop in Mexico City is extremely difficult.
Mexican drug war Total casualties:
41,034 dead in war conflicts between identified parties 2006–2019 (total 350,000–400,000 dead from organized crime homicides 2006–2021) Wikipedia
posted by Omon Ra at 2:38 AM on May 25, 2022 [18 favorites]
Ejem…
In 2015, official reports of the U.S. government and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) revealed that over the last years, Mexican cartels improved their firearm power, and that 71% of their weapons come from the U.S.
Mexicans have a constitutional right to own firearms, but legal purchase from the single Mexican gun shop in Mexico City is extremely difficult.
Mexican drug war Total casualties:
41,034 dead in war conflicts between identified parties 2006–2019 (total 350,000–400,000 dead from organized crime homicides 2006–2021) Wikipedia
posted by Omon Ra at 2:38 AM on May 25, 2022 [18 favorites]
The United States has institutionalized the mass shooting in a way that Durkheim would immediately recognize. As I discovered to my shock when my own children started school in North Carolina some years ago, preparation for a shooting is a part of our children’s lives as soon as they enter kindergarten. The ritual of a Killing Day is known to all adults. It is taught to children first in outline only, and then gradually in more detail as they get older. The lockdown drill is its Mass. The language of “Active shooters”, “Safe corners”, and “Shelter in place” is its liturgy. “Run, Hide, Fight” is its creed. Security consultants and credential-dispensing experts are its clergy. My son and daughter have been institutionally readied to be shot dead as surely as I, at their age, was readied by my school to receive my first communion. They practice their movements. They are taught how to hold themselves; who to defer to; what to say to their parents; how to hold their hands. The only real difference is that there is a lottery for participation. Most will only prepare. But each week, a chosen few will fully consummate the process, and be killed.
posted by the duck by the oboe at 2:51 AM on May 25, 2022 [84 favorites]
posted by the duck by the oboe at 2:51 AM on May 25, 2022 [84 favorites]
"mass shooting" indeed.
posted by chavenet at 2:54 AM on May 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by chavenet at 2:54 AM on May 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
.
posted by harriet vane at 3:19 AM on May 25, 2022
posted by harriet vane at 3:19 AM on May 25, 2022
Omon Ra you've left out the next bit:
Firearms that make their way to Mexico come primarily from the American civilian market.
posted by pompomtom at 3:20 AM on May 25, 2022 [24 favorites]
Firearms that make their way to Mexico come primarily from the American civilian market.
posted by pompomtom at 3:20 AM on May 25, 2022 [24 favorites]
I'm always struck by how bloodless the media language around these events is in the US. "Mass shooting" and "shooter" not "mass murder" and "child killer". I suppose the journalists might find it harder to keep documenting these events if they had to show the true horror of them.
posted by peppermind at 3:29 AM on May 25, 2022 [11 favorites]
posted by peppermind at 3:29 AM on May 25, 2022 [11 favorites]
I wish I could put my finger on the link to a news clip of Devin Nunez complaining to the interviewer after the Jan 6 insurrection about having to be subject to the inconvenience of going through a metal detector to get into the Capitol and the back-in-the-studio host pointing out that her kids went through metal detectors every day at school because Nunez and his cohort refuse to do anything about gun control.
posted by bendy at 3:46 AM on May 25, 2022 [50 favorites]
posted by bendy at 3:46 AM on May 25, 2022 [50 favorites]
The damage he inflicted during the slaughtering rendered the kids unrecognizable and now DNA samples are needed for proper identification.
I wonder what would happen if one of the parents of those kids decided to follow Mamie Till's lead and insist their child have an open-casket funeral.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 3:58 AM on May 25, 2022 [30 favorites]
I wonder what would happen if one of the parents of those kids decided to follow Mamie Till's lead and insist their child have an open-casket funeral.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 3:58 AM on May 25, 2022 [30 favorites]
America is tragedy and money
posted by glaucon at 4:03 AM on May 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by glaucon at 4:03 AM on May 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
Firearms that make their way to Mexico come primarily from the American civilian market.
IIRC, I read some DOJ paper which said 80% of firearms used by criminals come from the unregulated secondary market. If that's true, then national licensing and registration, combined with mandatory minimum sentences for any unlawful transfer should shut that down in short order, and establish the ability to track guns past their first retail purchase.
posted by mikelieman at 4:18 AM on May 25, 2022 [9 favorites]
IIRC, I read some DOJ paper which said 80% of firearms used by criminals come from the unregulated secondary market. If that's true, then national licensing and registration, combined with mandatory minimum sentences for any unlawful transfer should shut that down in short order, and establish the ability to track guns past their first retail purchase.
posted by mikelieman at 4:18 AM on May 25, 2022 [9 favorites]
I’m waiting for any word of a motive. Has anyone heard anything?
posted by terrierhead at 4:24 AM on May 25, 2022
posted by terrierhead at 4:24 AM on May 25, 2022
The shooter was killed himself, I imagine it's hard to ask him questions about motive.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:28 AM on May 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:28 AM on May 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
Agreed. Perhaps something on his social media or an old school note?
posted by terrierhead at 4:50 AM on May 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by terrierhead at 4:50 AM on May 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
The reports coming in now suggest armed cops were on the scene from the shooters initial crash outside the school and tried to stop him. He had body armor and they were unable to stop him. A nearby CPB officer who was part of one of their heavily armor elite units came in and managed to kill the shooter. However the officer was also wounded.
So the myth of we just need good guys with guns is once again destroyed by reality. In this ideal scenario the shooter still managed to murder 18 kids and 3 adults.
posted by interogative mood at 4:51 AM on May 25, 2022 [28 favorites]
So the myth of we just need good guys with guns is once again destroyed by reality. In this ideal scenario the shooter still managed to murder 18 kids and 3 adults.
posted by interogative mood at 4:51 AM on May 25, 2022 [28 favorites]
It's not a 'holes in their little bodies' scenario, though, is it?
Given the demographics and the reported presence of border services, I wouldn’t be surprised (though would still be angry and disappointed) if it was a combination of racism (white police thinking the kids “all look the same”) and very cynical xenophobia seeing an opportunity to try to deport some non-white people.
posted by eviemath at 4:52 AM on May 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
Given the demographics and the reported presence of border services, I wouldn’t be surprised (though would still be angry and disappointed) if it was a combination of racism (white police thinking the kids “all look the same”) and very cynical xenophobia seeing an opportunity to try to deport some non-white people.
posted by eviemath at 4:52 AM on May 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
I'm always struck by how bloodless the media language around these events is in the US.
This time I was surprised by a tweet by some news org referring to deaths after "an active shooter event". I'd say "a shooting" or "a mass murder" or something. I suppose they're so used to exonerative language like "officer-involved shooting" that they expect shootings just happen, with no agent in particular.
...which would be even more reason to ban guns, which apparently do kill people.
posted by pompomtom at 4:57 AM on May 25, 2022 [9 favorites]
This time I was surprised by a tweet by some news org referring to deaths after "an active shooter event". I'd say "a shooting" or "a mass murder" or something. I suppose they're so used to exonerative language like "officer-involved shooting" that they expect shootings just happen, with no agent in particular.
...which would be even more reason to ban guns, which apparently do kill people.
posted by pompomtom at 4:57 AM on May 25, 2022 [9 favorites]
As of this morning, the toll is currently at 19 children and 3 adults murdered and a dozen or so injured, plus the shooter's grandmother.
The victims are starting to be named.
posted by fight or flight at 5:11 AM on May 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
The victims are starting to be named.
Eva Mireles, who taught fourth grade, had been an educator for 17 years, according to her profile at Robb Elementary. Mireles was “trying to protect her students” from the gunman, a relative told The New York Times.The Guardian's live reporting is here.
[...]
Mireles' co-teacher, Irma Garcia, was killed, according to her son, Christian Garcia. Irma Garcia taught at the school for 23 years, according to her school profile. She had four children and loved barbecuing with her husband and listening to music. Her son said a friend in law enforcement who was at the scene saw Garcia shielding her students.
Uziyah Garcia was identified by his aunt, Nikki Cross, NBC Dallas-Fort Worth reported.
Xavier Lopez, 10, had been at an awards ceremony with his mother hours before the shooting, KSAT reported.
The father of 9-year-old Amerie Jo Garza identified her to NBC News as one of the victims. She was about to finish fourth grade, according to KSAT.
Annabell Guadalupe Rodriguez, 10, a third grade student was killed, family members told KHOU of Houston.
posted by fight or flight at 5:11 AM on May 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
So how long have shooter drills been routine in schools? How does it change society when all the young adults spent years being told that someone was going to come and kill them and no one would help? "It's normal that someone could come in and kill you at any time and society absolutely refuses to stop this" is a hell of a way to train up a child - a great way to normalize fascist ideas about bodies and disposability, really,
What's worst right now is that all avenues of change seem closed - not just on this but on every kind of necessary reform. We could use any number of reasonable, achievable things - anti-covid classroom ventilation, sufficient school funding to reduce class sizes*, regular free school meals for all without controversy...and then on a broader social level we need to house homeless people and pay a living wage. These are ordinary things that a rich society can do easily, but we know that because of entrenched power, wealth and corruption we might as well be talking about going to Alpha Centauri. Probably easier to go to Alpha Centauri because at least you'd have the billionaires on your side.
It's easy to say "vote" or "organize" but all my adult life I've known a whole bunch of people who vote assiduously and organize steadily and it's still mass shootings and police murders and no healthcare and more homeless people because when the state is corrupt and has no conscience you can't move it by asking, no matter how many people ask.
*It was a big union victory here that class sizes are capped at forty in the contract. I grew up in a solidly middle class suburb and class sizes ran about 25 to 28, plus schools worked differently and there was less chaos.
posted by Frowner at 5:26 AM on May 25, 2022 [47 favorites]
What's worst right now is that all avenues of change seem closed - not just on this but on every kind of necessary reform. We could use any number of reasonable, achievable things - anti-covid classroom ventilation, sufficient school funding to reduce class sizes*, regular free school meals for all without controversy...and then on a broader social level we need to house homeless people and pay a living wage. These are ordinary things that a rich society can do easily, but we know that because of entrenched power, wealth and corruption we might as well be talking about going to Alpha Centauri. Probably easier to go to Alpha Centauri because at least you'd have the billionaires on your side.
It's easy to say "vote" or "organize" but all my adult life I've known a whole bunch of people who vote assiduously and organize steadily and it's still mass shootings and police murders and no healthcare and more homeless people because when the state is corrupt and has no conscience you can't move it by asking, no matter how many people ask.
*It was a big union victory here that class sizes are capped at forty in the contract. I grew up in a solidly middle class suburb and class sizes ran about 25 to 28, plus schools worked differently and there was less chaos.
posted by Frowner at 5:26 AM on May 25, 2022 [47 favorites]
One day the democratic leadership in this country will finally realize that a winning strategy is one that actually stands for something.
That ship sailed with Sandy Hook, when more than enough of the political left voted to side with gun owners, instead of the victims of that massacre.
Until they look inwards and start booting pro-gun-owner legislators, Dems choose to be a part of the gun owner cancer.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 5:33 AM on May 25, 2022 [4 favorites]
That ship sailed with Sandy Hook, when more than enough of the political left voted to side with gun owners, instead of the victims of that massacre.
Until they look inwards and start booting pro-gun-owner legislators, Dems choose to be a part of the gun owner cancer.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 5:33 AM on May 25, 2022 [4 favorites]
A quick review of gun laws in Latin America, covering Argentina, Brazil, Chile, Colombia, Mexico. It's from the Americas Society, it feels like they're trying to avoid controversy, but in the last section they can't help but hint that spillover from the U.S. is an issue.
posted by gimonca at 5:50 AM on May 25, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by gimonca at 5:50 AM on May 25, 2022 [4 favorites]
One would establish universal background checks for commercial gun sales; the other would extend the period to perform a federal background check on a gun buyer from three to 10 days.
I've experienced this personally. Back in my reporting days, we did a seven-month project on gun trafficking. For a sidebar story, my reporting partner and I went to a gun show to try to buy guns without background checks. My colleague bought a .38 (iirc) from a guy walking around the floor carrying a duffel bag full of guns. The background check: "Can I see your driver's license?" Looks. "Thanks, Here's your gun, Mike."
I bought a Tec-9 with an extended magazine from a gun dealer's booth. They took my info to run a federal background check. They said there was a hangup and they'd get back to me. Three days after the show, my desk phone rang. It was the dealer, telling me the three-day limit was up, the check was not completed yet, so I could just pick up my gun. I drove a half-hour to their regular shop and did just that.
(We turned in the guns to the county sheriff's department later that week.)
posted by martin q blank at 6:01 AM on May 25, 2022 [33 favorites]
I've experienced this personally. Back in my reporting days, we did a seven-month project on gun trafficking. For a sidebar story, my reporting partner and I went to a gun show to try to buy guns without background checks. My colleague bought a .38 (iirc) from a guy walking around the floor carrying a duffel bag full of guns. The background check: "Can I see your driver's license?" Looks. "Thanks, Here's your gun, Mike."
I bought a Tec-9 with an extended magazine from a gun dealer's booth. They took my info to run a federal background check. They said there was a hangup and they'd get back to me. Three days after the show, my desk phone rang. It was the dealer, telling me the three-day limit was up, the check was not completed yet, so I could just pick up my gun. I drove a half-hour to their regular shop and did just that.
(We turned in the guns to the county sheriff's department later that week.)
posted by martin q blank at 6:01 AM on May 25, 2022 [33 favorites]
This world? Non-american mefites don't have any experience with this.
When Anders Breivik opened fire on youngsters attending a summer camp on the Norwegian island of Utoya, he carried out a massacre that to this day remains the deadliest mass shooting by a single gunman anywhere in the world.*
*Article dated July 21, 2017
America may lead the world in total body count for the obvious reason it's a lot easier to do here but, all the same, don't kid yourself.
See also
Timeline of Worldwide School and Mass Shootings
posted by y2karl at 6:09 AM on May 25, 2022 [6 favorites]
When Anders Breivik opened fire on youngsters attending a summer camp on the Norwegian island of Utoya, he carried out a massacre that to this day remains the deadliest mass shooting by a single gunman anywhere in the world.*
*Article dated July 21, 2017
America may lead the world in total body count for the obvious reason it's a lot easier to do here but, all the same, don't kid yourself.
See also
Timeline of Worldwide School and Mass Shootings
posted by y2karl at 6:09 AM on May 25, 2022 [6 favorites]
Current Causes of Death in Children and Adolescents in the United States. From the New England Journal Of Medicine. Firearms is now (2020) top of the list, passing Motor vehicle crashes.
.
posted by ecco at 6:11 AM on May 25, 2022 [4 favorites]
.
posted by ecco at 6:11 AM on May 25, 2022 [4 favorites]
My partner is a teacher, not at that school. Today she went back to the classroom
My mother is a teacher, not at that school. Today she went back to the classroom.
My son is a student, not at that school. Today he went back to the classroom.
All entering the lottery to see if today's shooting will kill them or if, yet again, they'll be lucky. Most people are lucky and don't get shot.
I live in San Antonio, just up the road from Uvalde, and I can guarantee you that many of the teachers at the school are quite conservative and have argued against gun regulation and voted for politicians who enable mass murder. 60% of Uvalde voted for Trump in 2020.
I also feel confident that any of the surviving teachers who did previously oppose gun regulation will probably not change their position. People mostly don't.
So here we sit, looking yet again at the mass human sacrifice the NRA cultists demand of us, and wondering how long we can hold together as a nation with them running things from the minority.
posted by sotonohito at 6:12 AM on May 25, 2022 [43 favorites]
My mother is a teacher, not at that school. Today she went back to the classroom.
My son is a student, not at that school. Today he went back to the classroom.
All entering the lottery to see if today's shooting will kill them or if, yet again, they'll be lucky. Most people are lucky and don't get shot.
I live in San Antonio, just up the road from Uvalde, and I can guarantee you that many of the teachers at the school are quite conservative and have argued against gun regulation and voted for politicians who enable mass murder. 60% of Uvalde voted for Trump in 2020.
I also feel confident that any of the surviving teachers who did previously oppose gun regulation will probably not change their position. People mostly don't.
So here we sit, looking yet again at the mass human sacrifice the NRA cultists demand of us, and wondering how long we can hold together as a nation with them running things from the minority.
posted by sotonohito at 6:12 AM on May 25, 2022 [43 favorites]
How many of us here, I wonder, have direct experience with being in a community in which people were killed in a mass shooting? Probably quite a few of us, statistically. I have. I hate this fucking world sometimes.
Sheesh. I've experienced this, too. After the last horrible mass murder-- you know, a week ago, in Buffalo-- the Washington Post ran an editorial that listed many of the mass murders since Columbine.
As I read it, I realized I've literally stood where three of them later happened. (And it had nothing to do with reporting gun violence stories). I'm just one middle-aged, lightly traveled guy, and three of these happened in places I know well. WTAF.
(Also: One of them was four years ago, at the Capital-Gazette newspaper in Annapolis, where two former colleagues of mine were killed.)
I hate this world sometimes, too.
(PS on other post: That gun show loophole is how the Charleston prayer circle mass murderer was able to buy his gun, even though he had a felony conviction. IIRC he lived in one place, but the court that convicted him was in another, and they didn't turn it up in time.)
posted by martin q blank at 6:15 AM on May 25, 2022 [8 favorites]
Sheesh. I've experienced this, too. After the last horrible mass murder-- you know, a week ago, in Buffalo-- the Washington Post ran an editorial that listed many of the mass murders since Columbine.
As I read it, I realized I've literally stood where three of them later happened. (And it had nothing to do with reporting gun violence stories). I'm just one middle-aged, lightly traveled guy, and three of these happened in places I know well. WTAF.
(Also: One of them was four years ago, at the Capital-Gazette newspaper in Annapolis, where two former colleagues of mine were killed.)
I hate this world sometimes, too.
(PS on other post: That gun show loophole is how the Charleston prayer circle mass murderer was able to buy his gun, even though he had a felony conviction. IIRC he lived in one place, but the court that convicted him was in another, and they didn't turn it up in time.)
posted by martin q blank at 6:15 AM on May 25, 2022 [8 favorites]
Matthew McConaughey is from Uvalde, and has since weighed in.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:16 AM on May 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:16 AM on May 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
I remember some chatter after January 6th about how the younger congressional staffers were instrumental in saving the reps because of their valuable experience with active shooter drills all through their school career. It’s all so broken.
posted by wabbittwax at 6:29 AM on May 25, 2022 [24 favorites]
posted by wabbittwax at 6:29 AM on May 25, 2022 [24 favorites]
Most Americans are reasonable. How US politics is structured and funded is the issue. That will take a long time to fix.
Two parties and all rules and procedures based around two parties is suppose to lead to two big tents and compromise. It does't.
Sixty years ago both parties would get together and hammer out some compromise and the US would move forward, maybe not enough, but forward.
posted by sety at 6:34 AM on May 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
Two parties and all rules and procedures based around two parties is suppose to lead to two big tents and compromise. It does't.
Sixty years ago both parties would get together and hammer out some compromise and the US would move forward, maybe not enough, but forward.
posted by sety at 6:34 AM on May 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
From two weeks ago: Court strikes down California age limit on gun sales
posted by NotLost at 6:43 AM on May 25, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by NotLost at 6:43 AM on May 25, 2022 [4 favorites]
I think one of the problems is that people, especially conservative people, don't actually take school schootings seriously.
Last year my son got into a stupid teenage argument with a friend, they quickly decided they were bitter enemies, and my son burned a hat the other kid had left with him, took video of it, and sent the video to the other kid. Whcih was stupid and cruel. The hat was not valuable, not even really sentimentally, but the ex-friend had given it to my son which made his video cruel.
The ex-friend posted pictures and videos of him with his guns (becsue this is Texas, his parents are wealthy Trumpites, and of course at 14 he personally owned several guns his parents had given to him as gifts).
And then he took one of his guns to my son's school.
He didn't shoot anyone. He didn't even have ammunition. He was caught more or less instantly, and... nothing really happened.
The school police told him it was very, very, serious. He was suspended from his school for the rest of the school year. And that was it.
I'm not sure what else **SHOULD** have happened, I certainly don't argue he should have been incarcerated (though if he was Black I'm sure he would have been).
But the attitude towards the whole affair, both by his parents and by school administration, was that it was just one of those stupid things kids do sometimes and no one should really think about it very much.
The gun wasn't even confiscated by law enforcement, it was sent home with his parents. None of their guns were confiscated. They faced no penalties for giving him guns, nor for keeping their own guns so unsecured that he could easily access them.
Because, ultimately, conservatives just don't think school shootings are worth spendin gmuch time thinking about or trying to stop.
Just one of those things. Part of life. As inevitable as weather, and just as foolhardy to try to regulate or deal with by laws.
posted by sotonohito at 6:47 AM on May 25, 2022 [53 favorites]
Last year my son got into a stupid teenage argument with a friend, they quickly decided they were bitter enemies, and my son burned a hat the other kid had left with him, took video of it, and sent the video to the other kid. Whcih was stupid and cruel. The hat was not valuable, not even really sentimentally, but the ex-friend had given it to my son which made his video cruel.
The ex-friend posted pictures and videos of him with his guns (becsue this is Texas, his parents are wealthy Trumpites, and of course at 14 he personally owned several guns his parents had given to him as gifts).
And then he took one of his guns to my son's school.
He didn't shoot anyone. He didn't even have ammunition. He was caught more or less instantly, and... nothing really happened.
The school police told him it was very, very, serious. He was suspended from his school for the rest of the school year. And that was it.
I'm not sure what else **SHOULD** have happened, I certainly don't argue he should have been incarcerated (though if he was Black I'm sure he would have been).
But the attitude towards the whole affair, both by his parents and by school administration, was that it was just one of those stupid things kids do sometimes and no one should really think about it very much.
The gun wasn't even confiscated by law enforcement, it was sent home with his parents. None of their guns were confiscated. They faced no penalties for giving him guns, nor for keeping their own guns so unsecured that he could easily access them.
Because, ultimately, conservatives just don't think school shootings are worth spendin gmuch time thinking about or trying to stop.
Just one of those things. Part of life. As inevitable as weather, and just as foolhardy to try to regulate or deal with by laws.
posted by sotonohito at 6:47 AM on May 25, 2022 [53 favorites]
How many of us here, I wonder, have direct experience with being in a community in which people were killed in a mass shooting? Probably quite a few of us, statistically.
My city averages 4 mass shootings a year. In 2021, there were 6 in the first 6 months. Last August, during the first week of school this year, someone took a gun to the very large high school a block away from my house and fired 8-10 rounds. I could hear the shots from my house and see kids rushing away. (High school kids are much quieter in a real emergency than they are when they’re play beefing with their friends.) No one was hurt, possibly because the shooter went at the normal dismissal time but they’d had a short day, so there weren’t that many kids.
On another day this school year, my kid’s elementary school was locked down briefly because of a small incident at the nearby middle school, and then the same week (same day?), the nearby university was locked down for a morning.
I don’t know why I’m writing all this. It just feels like a sea of guns. 400 million of them they say?
posted by vunder at 6:58 AM on May 25, 2022 [10 favorites]
My city averages 4 mass shootings a year. In 2021, there were 6 in the first 6 months. Last August, during the first week of school this year, someone took a gun to the very large high school a block away from my house and fired 8-10 rounds. I could hear the shots from my house and see kids rushing away. (High school kids are much quieter in a real emergency than they are when they’re play beefing with their friends.) No one was hurt, possibly because the shooter went at the normal dismissal time but they’d had a short day, so there weren’t that many kids.
On another day this school year, my kid’s elementary school was locked down briefly because of a small incident at the nearby middle school, and then the same week (same day?), the nearby university was locked down for a morning.
I don’t know why I’m writing all this. It just feels like a sea of guns. 400 million of them they say?
posted by vunder at 6:58 AM on May 25, 2022 [10 favorites]
I grew up in Sandy Hook and still live close. My best friend's daughter was a survivor of Sandy Hook. My sister, a teacher, was friends with teachers and the principal who died.
I was a school principal in a school near Sandy Hook on that day. I was ill equppied 10 years ago to deal with the response from my own teachers, and this haunts me all of the time.
I'm in a school in Manhattan now. Today I have spent all morning talking with my friends who survived Sandy Hook and their daughter who is graduating high school in 2 weeks, and reassuring the children I work with that they are not, in fact, going to be next.
So they can get through their day without paralyzing fear. But I can offer nothing but comfort today because I know my reassurances are more lies and hope than truth.
posted by archimago at 7:05 AM on May 25, 2022 [30 favorites]
I was a school principal in a school near Sandy Hook on that day. I was ill equppied 10 years ago to deal with the response from my own teachers, and this haunts me all of the time.
I'm in a school in Manhattan now. Today I have spent all morning talking with my friends who survived Sandy Hook and their daughter who is graduating high school in 2 weeks, and reassuring the children I work with that they are not, in fact, going to be next.
So they can get through their day without paralyzing fear. But I can offer nothing but comfort today because I know my reassurances are more lies and hope than truth.
posted by archimago at 7:05 AM on May 25, 2022 [30 favorites]
I shopped in that Buffalo grocery store many years ago.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 7:06 AM on May 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by The Underpants Monster at 7:06 AM on May 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
My sister-in-law was in the "Gather 'round the flagpole" prayer group (that was a thing in the 90's) at Heath High School. She was sick on December 1, 1997 so she wasn't there when Michael Carneal shot eight of the ten or so kids in the group, killing three. She woke up from a Sudafed sleep to find that ~75-80% of the kids in the group had been shot.
The grimmest part is realizing "I know someone connected to a mass shooting" has gone from shocking to mundane. THERE ARE JUST SO MANY.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:09 AM on May 25, 2022 [13 favorites]
The grimmest part is realizing "I know someone connected to a mass shooting" has gone from shocking to mundane. THERE ARE JUST SO MANY.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:09 AM on May 25, 2022 [13 favorites]
December 1989 (No. 291) MAD "Special Mutant Turtle Issue".. I'd just dug it up from a forgotten shelf, having a bit of time travel two nights ago, to find this letter from a reader:
"It is our Constitutional Right to keep and bear arms. I like your magazine, but I am kind of sick and tired of your jokes about the NRA. My father and I are both members of the NRA and I just don't care for your jokes about guns, gun clubs and the NRA.--Tom Boyd, Clute, TX.
Tommy gun--you keep mentioning the initials "NRA" without explaining what they stand for. We can only assume you mean the No-good-beer-bellied-narrow-minded-killers-of-wildlife-and-the-profits-soaked-in-blood-gun-manufacturers-who-bribe-legislators-to-make-weapons-easily-available-for-the-senseless-slaughter-of-hundreds-of-innocent-victims-every-year Rifle Association. Is that the one you mean?--Ed.
This murderous stupidity is bred deep into the US.. what has changed since this silly kids' comicbook printed this letter? I am trying to imagine an equivalent exchange in a Belgian comicbook.. a Malaysian comicbook.. yet here we are.
posted by elkevelvet at 7:17 AM on May 25, 2022 [11 favorites]
"It is our Constitutional Right to keep and bear arms. I like your magazine, but I am kind of sick and tired of your jokes about the NRA. My father and I are both members of the NRA and I just don't care for your jokes about guns, gun clubs and the NRA.--Tom Boyd, Clute, TX.
Tommy gun--you keep mentioning the initials "NRA" without explaining what they stand for. We can only assume you mean the No-good-beer-bellied-narrow-minded-killers-of-wildlife-and-the-profits-soaked-in-blood-gun-manufacturers-who-bribe-legislators-to-make-weapons-easily-available-for-the-senseless-slaughter-of-hundreds-of-innocent-victims-every-year Rifle Association. Is that the one you mean?--Ed.
This murderous stupidity is bred deep into the US.. what has changed since this silly kids' comicbook printed this letter? I am trying to imagine an equivalent exchange in a Belgian comicbook.. a Malaysian comicbook.. yet here we are.
posted by elkevelvet at 7:17 AM on May 25, 2022 [11 favorites]
Does anyone know how those 212 mass shootings in the US so far this year break down on a state-by-state basis? I would imagine those states with the loosest gun laws suffer more mass shootings than those who've clamped down, but I've never actually seen the figures presented in a way which would allow us to tell. I guess a per capita figure for each state would give the most reliable indication?
posted by Paul Slade at 7:20 AM on May 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Paul Slade at 7:20 AM on May 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
Does anyone know how those 212 mass shootings in the US so far this year break down on a state-by-state basis?
Wikipedia has a breakdown.
posted by briank at 7:23 AM on May 25, 2022 [5 favorites]
Wikipedia has a breakdown.
posted by briank at 7:23 AM on May 25, 2022 [5 favorites]
@Paul Slade: It may not as clear as that though. Different category than mass shootings, but Chicago's high gun crime rate is generally conceded to be connected to lax gun laws across the border in Indiana.
Still, I'd like to see the numbers too.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:25 AM on May 25, 2022 [5 favorites]
Still, I'd like to see the numbers too.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:25 AM on May 25, 2022 [5 favorites]
Does anyone know how those 212 mass shootings in the US so far this year break down on a state-by-state basis?
With all due respect, I think the link that NotLost posted above suggests that thinking of this as a problem that only affects certain states or cities or towns or types of people is misguided.
This isn't a red state/blue state problem.
This isn't any one state's problem.
This isn't a city vs. country problem.
This isn't an economic problem.
This isn't a race-related problem.
This isn't an education-level problem.
This isn't a mental-health issue problem.
This is OUR problem. ALL of ours. Whether it happened in your town or not. Whether it happened in your state or not. Whether it happened to people who looked like you or not. Whether it happened to people who voted like you do or not.
We need to start acting like this is our problem.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:26 AM on May 25, 2022 [32 favorites]
With all due respect, I think the link that NotLost posted above suggests that thinking of this as a problem that only affects certain states or cities or towns or types of people is misguided.
This isn't a red state/blue state problem.
This isn't any one state's problem.
This isn't a city vs. country problem.
This isn't an economic problem.
This isn't a race-related problem.
This isn't an education-level problem.
This isn't a mental-health issue problem.
This is OUR problem. ALL of ours. Whether it happened in your town or not. Whether it happened in your state or not. Whether it happened to people who looked like you or not. Whether it happened to people who voted like you do or not.
We need to start acting like this is our problem.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:26 AM on May 25, 2022 [32 favorites]
If my hobby helped murder a couple thousand kids every year, I would simply get a new goddamned hobby.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:50 AM on May 25, 2022 [72 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:50 AM on May 25, 2022 [72 favorites]
The US is a shithole country. I say this as an American. Like Cheney who only recognized gay marriage when his daughter came out, the vast majority of Americans don't give a shit about a group of fourth graders and their teacher being murdered because of State sponsored terrorist policies, cuz it wasn't their kid.
posted by bluesky43 at 7:51 AM on May 25, 2022 [11 favorites]
posted by bluesky43 at 7:51 AM on May 25, 2022 [11 favorites]
Never once did I imagine I would move to Mexico from the U.S. and be consistently worried about the violent environment my friends and family still live in.
I really thought that would be the other way around, but here we are.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 8:12 AM on May 25, 2022 [6 favorites]
I really thought that would be the other way around, but here we are.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 8:12 AM on May 25, 2022 [6 favorites]
This murderous stupidity is bred deep into the US.. what has changed since this silly kids' comicbook printed this letter?
Well, for one, we finally have the NYAG suing to dissolve the NRA, after it came out that it's become a corrupt piggybank for the senior leadership. Of course, part of the problem is that when she did so, you had the ACLU come out and say how horrible it was that she was attacking an advocacy group and how it was a threat to the First Amendment - which blew up in their faces when Tish James provided the receipts.
Which comes to the bigger, understated problem in my opinion - we have created a culture where large groups of people (in some cases the majority!) are expected to accept a diminshment of their own lives out of a nebulous support for "freedom". This is part of that - we're expected to turn a blind eye to these tragedies, because heaven forbid we actually hold people accountable for arguing that it's more important that they get to freely carry a gun than for the rest of us to be able to feel safe in our lives.
And on that note, fuck Glenn Greenwald.
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:25 AM on May 25, 2022 [14 favorites]
Well, for one, we finally have the NYAG suing to dissolve the NRA, after it came out that it's become a corrupt piggybank for the senior leadership. Of course, part of the problem is that when she did so, you had the ACLU come out and say how horrible it was that she was attacking an advocacy group and how it was a threat to the First Amendment - which blew up in their faces when Tish James provided the receipts.
Which comes to the bigger, understated problem in my opinion - we have created a culture where large groups of people (in some cases the majority!) are expected to accept a diminshment of their own lives out of a nebulous support for "freedom". This is part of that - we're expected to turn a blind eye to these tragedies, because heaven forbid we actually hold people accountable for arguing that it's more important that they get to freely carry a gun than for the rest of us to be able to feel safe in our lives.
And on that note, fuck Glenn Greenwald.
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:25 AM on May 25, 2022 [14 favorites]
I can't pin any hopes on the NYAG. Yes, they're pursuing the right cases on the NRA and Trump, but their whole Within Six Months We Should Have a Statement That Lays Out a Nonspecific Timeline of Our Intent In This Matter and Within Six to Ten Years, You Might See Some Serious Shit timeline is fucked up. If the people the cases they're pushing won't outlive the people they are meant to stop, they mean nothing to me.
The house is on fire. Do not explain to me about how you are exploring a long term plan to buy hoses and a truck.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:33 AM on May 25, 2022 [17 favorites]
The house is on fire. Do not explain to me about how you are exploring a long term plan to buy hoses and a truck.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:33 AM on May 25, 2022 [17 favorites]
The ritual of a Killing Day is known to all adults.
It's always creeped me out a little that the author of The Hunger Games series lives in Sandy Hook.
posted by dlugoczaj at 8:33 AM on May 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
It's always creeped me out a little that the author of The Hunger Games series lives in Sandy Hook.
posted by dlugoczaj at 8:33 AM on May 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
As a simple bill (that I doubt will pass, but which will make a point), raise the national age of gun ownership to 20. There is a lot of maturing that goes on between 18 and 20. The 20 year old is less likely to focus their craziness at their school.
I know this is not a big step. But it is something that might have a chance.
It will make a sharp point that Governor Abbott lowered the gun-buying age to 18 last year.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 8:37 AM on May 25, 2022 [8 favorites]
I know this is not a big step. But it is something that might have a chance.
It will make a sharp point that Governor Abbott lowered the gun-buying age to 18 last year.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 8:37 AM on May 25, 2022 [8 favorites]
I can't pin any hopes on the NYAG. Yes, they're pursuing the right cases on the NRA and Trump, ...
Not only that, but didn't the NRA just simply announce they were moving their headquarters out of NY? I'm assuming that it's not just that simple, but who knows.
posted by Melismata at 8:41 AM on May 25, 2022
Not only that, but didn't the NRA just simply announce they were moving their headquarters out of NY? I'm assuming that it's not just that simple, but who knows.
posted by Melismata at 8:41 AM on May 25, 2022
GQP is a death cult. they don't care about the lives of fetuses, they just hate and fear women.
today I found myself thinking "why schools????" why not post offices and corporate headquarters like back in the day?
well...I think the answer must be that dead children pack the most wallop. what instills more terror, more grief?
posted by supermedusa at 8:42 AM on May 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
today I found myself thinking "why schools????" why not post offices and corporate headquarters like back in the day?
well...I think the answer must be that dead children pack the most wallop. what instills more terror, more grief?
posted by supermedusa at 8:42 AM on May 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
I am ashamed as an American that the repeated murders of innocent people by firearm as they study, shop, and you know, just generally live their lives is not seen as an actual crisis by those in charge. That the price my home country pays for their ownership of guns is the deaths of anyone and everyone and it won't change because if it didn't change after Sandy Hook, it's never going to change. Less thoughts and prayers, and more actual action to protect folks.
posted by Kitteh at 8:47 AM on May 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by Kitteh at 8:47 AM on May 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
He had body armor and they were unable to stop him
no he didn't and this was already clarified by the time that comment was posted. please don't repeat and recycle face-saving cop lies.
they didn't stop him. "unable" is their claim. they are alive to make the claim, and that tells us a few things.
posted by queenofbithynia at 8:48 AM on May 25, 2022 [40 favorites]
no he didn't and this was already clarified by the time that comment was posted. please don't repeat and recycle face-saving cop lies.
they didn't stop him. "unable" is their claim. they are alive to make the claim, and that tells us a few things.
posted by queenofbithynia at 8:48 AM on May 25, 2022 [40 favorites]
SUSPECT INFO: New details obtained about 18-year-old shooter who officials say killed 19 students, 2 adults at Texas elementary school (click2houston.com)
After further inspection of the deceased suspect’s clothing, it now appears the suspect was not wearing body armor as previous information had indicated. Instead, Ramos is said to have been wearing only a plate carrier with no ballistic armor inside when he exchanged gun fire with several officers at the school.
posted by bluesky43 at 8:51 AM on May 25, 2022 [7 favorites]
After further inspection of the deceased suspect’s clothing, it now appears the suspect was not wearing body armor as previous information had indicated. Instead, Ramos is said to have been wearing only a plate carrier with no ballistic armor inside when he exchanged gun fire with several officers at the school.
posted by bluesky43 at 8:51 AM on May 25, 2022 [7 favorites]
Note that - SEVERAL OFFICERS were unable to stop this. several officers with guns could not stop this. and fucking Ted Cruz wants to arm teachers.
posted by bluesky43 at 8:52 AM on May 25, 2022 [44 favorites]
posted by bluesky43 at 8:52 AM on May 25, 2022 [44 favorites]
The embrace of guns and violence has been a deeply cynical wedge issue* that has proven to be wildly popular, despite the constant and tragic cost. The tragedy of Newtown has been politicized and manipulated cruelly in a way that is just fucking twisted. The cost of gun freedom is constant death and danger.
I find myself wishing I'd pursued options for living elsewhere early in life; I don't have the money to do it as a geezer in places I'd want to be. I think America is headed for civil war or some other explosive and violent ugly event. I've come to believe there's an actual conspiracy of people like the Kochs, Gingrich, McConnell, the Extreme Wealthy Right who care only about their wealth and power. I have no idea if a shred of democracy can survive the lies.
This is indecent. This country is showing itself to be inured to the tragic loss of lives. The slaughter of children is meant to invoke a humane and effective response, but here we are. I am broken and furious.
*deeply cynical wedge issue - see also, choice.
posted by theora55 at 8:55 AM on May 25, 2022 [19 favorites]
I find myself wishing I'd pursued options for living elsewhere early in life; I don't have the money to do it as a geezer in places I'd want to be. I think America is headed for civil war or some other explosive and violent ugly event. I've come to believe there's an actual conspiracy of people like the Kochs, Gingrich, McConnell, the Extreme Wealthy Right who care only about their wealth and power. I have no idea if a shred of democracy can survive the lies.
This is indecent. This country is showing itself to be inured to the tragic loss of lives. The slaughter of children is meant to invoke a humane and effective response, but here we are. I am broken and furious.
*deeply cynical wedge issue - see also, choice.
posted by theora55 at 8:55 AM on May 25, 2022 [19 favorites]
Republicans: Teachers are greedy and lazy. They are a drain on our municipal budgets, the reason we have bad standardized test scores, and they are morally suspect people conditioning our kids to be deviants.
Also Republicans: Let's give teachers handguns and they can shoot it out with gunmen as needed.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:56 AM on May 25, 2022 [21 favorites]
Also Republicans: Let's give teachers handguns and they can shoot it out with gunmen as needed.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:56 AM on May 25, 2022 [21 favorites]
It's really only a matter of time before "Might as well just arm the children" goes from rhetorical hyperbole to a completely straight-faced part of the GOP platform. I'm not kidding. You're going to see Republican parents talking about their kids' rights to defend themselves. This sounds insane, like a bit. But so did "May as well give every teacher a gun" and before that "What are we supposed to do, post armed guards at every elementary school?"
They're never going to capitulate so relentless escalation is the only thing they have left.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:00 AM on May 25, 2022 [13 favorites]
They're never going to capitulate so relentless escalation is the only thing they have left.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:00 AM on May 25, 2022 [13 favorites]
I've come to believe there's an actual conspiracy of people like the Kochs, Gingrich, McConnell, the Extreme Wealthy Right who care only about their wealth and power.
Oh, it's not a conspiracy.
A conspiracy would imply that 1. there is a long-range over-arcing plan for society as a whole in mind, 2. the Kochs, Gingrich, McConnell, et. al. are all working together on said plan, and 3. they're trying to keep it secret.
However, it's quite obvious that instead what's happening is
1. these people have no plan for the country as a whole, they care only about "I'm gonna get mine and fuck all the rest of y'all and fuck what happens after me",
2. each person is working for themselves, and
3. they're doing this openly.
This isn't a conspiracy. This is selfish assholes being selfish and assholes.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:02 AM on May 25, 2022 [25 favorites]
Oh, it's not a conspiracy.
A conspiracy would imply that 1. there is a long-range over-arcing plan for society as a whole in mind, 2. the Kochs, Gingrich, McConnell, et. al. are all working together on said plan, and 3. they're trying to keep it secret.
However, it's quite obvious that instead what's happening is
1. these people have no plan for the country as a whole, they care only about "I'm gonna get mine and fuck all the rest of y'all and fuck what happens after me",
2. each person is working for themselves, and
3. they're doing this openly.
This isn't a conspiracy. This is selfish assholes being selfish and assholes.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:02 AM on May 25, 2022 [25 favorites]
Melismata-
The NRA tried to move to Texas, but the courts rejected it.
https://www.texastribune.org/2021/05/11/nra-lawsuit-texas/
posted by Spike Glee at 9:03 AM on May 25, 2022 [6 favorites]
The NRA tried to move to Texas, but the courts rejected it.
https://www.texastribune.org/2021/05/11/nra-lawsuit-texas/
posted by Spike Glee at 9:03 AM on May 25, 2022 [6 favorites]
I have family members who were irate that their children had to wear masks in school. They organized, they yelled and to them it was the biggest tragedy of all time and Gov. Newsom of California was a child-hating fascist.
Their response to what just happened? Some postings about how children have died here and hey lets NOT politicize this! (It included some non-sequitur about "you people and your gender identities") They are gun-owners of course.
I don't even know where to begin or if there's anyway we can turnaround from here.
posted by vacapinta at 9:05 AM on May 25, 2022 [28 favorites]
Their response to what just happened? Some postings about how children have died here and hey lets NOT politicize this! (It included some non-sequitur about "you people and your gender identities") They are gun-owners of course.
I don't even know where to begin or if there's anyway we can turnaround from here.
posted by vacapinta at 9:05 AM on May 25, 2022 [28 favorites]
I was in elementary school during the Cuban Missle Crisis. It was about two weeks of daily duck and cover drills. My mother told me that I came home from school crying. Teachers were openly talking about nuclear destruction. Those two weeks and the other years of general nuclear terror really affected me. Still do. I can not imagine how kids now dealing with frequent active shooter drills and armed people patrolling hallways will be affected by this. And unlike my experiences where the reality hasn’t happened, the children of this country hiding under desks, pushing tables up against doors, just to practice, also have to face the REALITY, now on a weekly or more basis of it really happening. We are creating generations of wounded people and for what? Money and power for the self selected few - a death cult that we allow to be part of our government. The other part of our government just sits back and laments over sad events. And the media? Better ratings! This nation isn’t sick. It’s fucking psychotic.
posted by njohnson23 at 9:05 AM on May 25, 2022 [22 favorites]
posted by njohnson23 at 9:05 AM on May 25, 2022 [22 favorites]
I can't pin any hopes on the NYAG. Yes, they're pursuing the right cases on the NRA and Trump, but their whole Within Six Months We Should Have a Statement That Lays Out a Nonspecific Timeline of Our Intent In This Matter and Within Six to Ten Years, You Might See Some Serious Shit timeline is fucked up. If the people the cases they're pushing won't outlive the people they are meant to stop, they mean nothing to me.
Well, Laying Out A Plan Of Intent, and then following it, is what the NYAG is able to do because that is literally her job. Lawyers and attorneys do not have the power to wave magic wands and be all "poof, now there are no guns" or "presto, I have beamed Trump into jail". Their job is to use the system we have in place to explore whether there is a cause for legal action, and then take that action in the ways that the aforementioned system will permit them to act. Yes, it takes a while, and yes it can be frustrating while we wait (any legal process can take a long time - my roommate has been waiting for over a year for a trial to work its way through the courts, because the defendant is pulling every single delaying tactic available to him and our Constitution says that we have to let the defendant do that, even though he's only doing it to be a dick). But that is the specific place where the NYAG is trying to work to shift things.
And the thing is - she very well could have decided not to. She could have shrugged and looked away because "God-damn that's gonna take too long, maybe I'll kick the can down the road and let someone else worry about it". But she didn't. She started that lengthy process, because it was what she had the ability to do to stop gun violence.
So it's taking a long time, but it's what she's able to do, so she's doing it.
What do you have the ability to do, and are you doing it?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:17 AM on May 25, 2022 [20 favorites]
Well, Laying Out A Plan Of Intent, and then following it, is what the NYAG is able to do because that is literally her job. Lawyers and attorneys do not have the power to wave magic wands and be all "poof, now there are no guns" or "presto, I have beamed Trump into jail". Their job is to use the system we have in place to explore whether there is a cause for legal action, and then take that action in the ways that the aforementioned system will permit them to act. Yes, it takes a while, and yes it can be frustrating while we wait (any legal process can take a long time - my roommate has been waiting for over a year for a trial to work its way through the courts, because the defendant is pulling every single delaying tactic available to him and our Constitution says that we have to let the defendant do that, even though he's only doing it to be a dick). But that is the specific place where the NYAG is trying to work to shift things.
And the thing is - she very well could have decided not to. She could have shrugged and looked away because "God-damn that's gonna take too long, maybe I'll kick the can down the road and let someone else worry about it". But she didn't. She started that lengthy process, because it was what she had the ability to do to stop gun violence.
So it's taking a long time, but it's what she's able to do, so she's doing it.
What do you have the ability to do, and are you doing it?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:17 AM on May 25, 2022 [20 favorites]
Per Twitter, families of children at the school have been asked to describe the clothes they were wearing and to provide DNA samples to assist with victim identification.
If this sentence doesn’t destroy you, nothing can.
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 9:19 AM on May 25, 2022 [23 favorites]
If this sentence doesn’t destroy you, nothing can.
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 9:19 AM on May 25, 2022 [23 favorites]
Also it is fucking criminal that it was originally reported that this asshole had body armor. No, he did not and it should not have been reported by the press based on the local cop accounts until it was verified. That was deliberate. Corporate sponsored terrorism enabled by the press.
posted by bluesky43 at 9:32 AM on May 25, 2022 [16 favorites]
posted by bluesky43 at 9:32 AM on May 25, 2022 [16 favorites]
I'm always struck by how bloodless the media language around these events is in the US. "Mass shooting" and "shooter" not "mass murder" and "child killer".
I’m often frustrated with media reporting, but I think this may be part of a general style guide about crimes and may be because of liability/jury selection procedures. (Ie, defense might be able to argue the inability to get a trial or might sue a newspaper for saying murder/killing had been committed before it was proven).
posted by corb at 9:40 AM on May 25, 2022 [16 favorites]
I’m often frustrated with media reporting, but I think this may be part of a general style guide about crimes and may be because of liability/jury selection procedures. (Ie, defense might be able to argue the inability to get a trial or might sue a newspaper for saying murder/killing had been committed before it was proven).
posted by corb at 9:40 AM on May 25, 2022 [16 favorites]
Their response to what just happened? Some postings about how children have died here and hey lets NOT politicize this!
Never forget that "politicize this" means "we're fed up with it and don't want it any more." Politics is how society expresses its collective goals. Politics is how we change things. And it's beyond clear this bloody status quo is the Republican political preference.
(Calls not to "politicize this" -- not to mention vile attempts to imply "false flags" or "crisis actors" -- also go to show they're well aware how bad mass murder makes their position look.)
posted by Gelatin at 9:40 AM on May 25, 2022 [16 favorites]
Never forget that "politicize this" means "we're fed up with it and don't want it any more." Politics is how society expresses its collective goals. Politics is how we change things. And it's beyond clear this bloody status quo is the Republican political preference.
(Calls not to "politicize this" -- not to mention vile attempts to imply "false flags" or "crisis actors" -- also go to show they're well aware how bad mass murder makes their position look.)
posted by Gelatin at 9:40 AM on May 25, 2022 [16 favorites]
corb, yes, that is exactly it. Source: Am longtime journalist.
posted by virago at 9:43 AM on May 25, 2022 [9 favorites]
posted by virago at 9:43 AM on May 25, 2022 [9 favorites]
The Guardian has collected stories and photos of the victims. One family lost two kids. I can't imagine the pain.
I know we throw around "thoughts and prayers" a lot, but if these families can find some kind of peace and solace in their faith, I hope they do so.
posted by fight or flight at 9:45 AM on May 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
I know we throw around "thoughts and prayers" a lot, but if these families can find some kind of peace and solace in their faith, I hope they do so.
posted by fight or flight at 9:45 AM on May 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
all these footnotes
we are trying to describe anger that can no longer be described, trying to capture horror in words that are not adequate to the task. repeating the symptoms and wrongness that we all know, from years and years
I can't believe we are still dealing with this, and that it's only getting worse
posted by elkevelvet at 9:45 AM on May 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
we are trying to describe anger that can no longer be described, trying to capture horror in words that are not adequate to the task. repeating the symptoms and wrongness that we all know, from years and years
I can't believe we are still dealing with this, and that it's only getting worse
posted by elkevelvet at 9:45 AM on May 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
Yes, they're pursuing the right cases on the NRA and Trump, but their whole Within Six Months We Should Have a Statement That Lays Out a Nonspecific Timeline of Our Intent In This Matter and Within Six to Ten Years, You Might See Some Serious Shit timeline is fucked up
Skipping those steps is a great way to get a court case thrown out or a conviction overturned. Yeah, prosecutors can railroad individual defendants, but as much as I wish they could railroad the NRA they really can't, even if they wanted to. The NRA's lawyers are too good and judges too sympathetic to them for it to work.
posted by BungaDunga at 9:47 AM on May 25, 2022 [5 favorites]
Skipping those steps is a great way to get a court case thrown out or a conviction overturned. Yeah, prosecutors can railroad individual defendants, but as much as I wish they could railroad the NRA they really can't, even if they wanted to. The NRA's lawyers are too good and judges too sympathetic to them for it to work.
posted by BungaDunga at 9:47 AM on May 25, 2022 [5 favorites]
I'm always struck by how bloodless the media language around these events is in the US. "Mass shooting" and "shooter" not "mass murder" and "child killer".
- -
I’m often frustrated with media reporting, but I think this may be part of a general style guide about crimes and may be because of liability/jury selection procedures.
I'd be happy if the headline writers would stop saying "19 students" and say "19 children." Someone is intentionally choosing to help people ignore how young the victims are.
posted by Mchelly at 9:50 AM on May 25, 2022 [12 favorites]
- -
I’m often frustrated with media reporting, but I think this may be part of a general style guide about crimes and may be because of liability/jury selection procedures.
I'd be happy if the headline writers would stop saying "19 students" and say "19 children." Someone is intentionally choosing to help people ignore how young the victims are.
posted by Mchelly at 9:50 AM on May 25, 2022 [12 favorites]
any legal process can take a long time - my roommate has been waiting for over a year for a trial to work its way through the courts, because the defendant is pulling every single delaying tactic available to him and our Constitution says that we have to let the defendant do that, even though he's only doing it to be a dick).
Very well may be true that its intended to delay, but I bristle hard at the idea that due process is a dick move. It is not. Same as when people say legal protections resulting in fewer penalties are a "technicality."
posted by tiny frying pan at 9:52 AM on May 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
Very well may be true that its intended to delay, but I bristle hard at the idea that due process is a dick move. It is not. Same as when people say legal protections resulting in fewer penalties are a "technicality."
posted by tiny frying pan at 9:52 AM on May 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
I might be more sympathetic to the NYAG had there not been, in general, across jurisdictions and venues, a general tendency towards hesitation, slow movement, cowardice, and inaction toward obvious crimes committed by Trump. It feels of a pattern at this point.
I would love to be wrong. And I am, to some extent, sympathetic to the idea that complex legal circumstances may be forcing the NYAG to pursue their two biggest cases in a way that is so deliberate that the defendants may get to do years and years more serious damage before charges are even brought, let alone settled. Trump may be re-elected and/or die before he ever has a day in NY court.
The thing is, I am going to be mad about the cases moving so slowly as to not actually be helpful to our rapidly deteriorating country whether I have to add a caveat about "though admittedly, this is all they could do" or not.
My family has to live in this country after all.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:54 AM on May 25, 2022 [7 favorites]
I would love to be wrong. And I am, to some extent, sympathetic to the idea that complex legal circumstances may be forcing the NYAG to pursue their two biggest cases in a way that is so deliberate that the defendants may get to do years and years more serious damage before charges are even brought, let alone settled. Trump may be re-elected and/or die before he ever has a day in NY court.
The thing is, I am going to be mad about the cases moving so slowly as to not actually be helpful to our rapidly deteriorating country whether I have to add a caveat about "though admittedly, this is all they could do" or not.
My family has to live in this country after all.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:54 AM on May 25, 2022 [7 favorites]
I ask again: what can you do to stop gun violence, and are you doing it?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:57 AM on May 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:57 AM on May 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
All I can do is vote and protest and donate. I do all three of those. But the public servants entrusted with protecting me aren't doing shit.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:59 AM on May 25, 2022 [18 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:59 AM on May 25, 2022 [18 favorites]
Why Armed Teachers Means Dead Black Students, Explained by Michael Harriot for The Root, 2018.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:00 AM on May 25, 2022 [15 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:00 AM on May 25, 2022 [15 favorites]
I survived two school shootings, one that was deliberately and directly aimed at me in particular. I spent years working in gun advocacy, was behind a lot of initiatives in the 90s and early 2000s. At one point, even partnered with the NRA because they were still talking about responsible gun ownership and making resources about how to keep kids safe. Taught some of the very earliest gun safety training in elementary schools, although at the time it was about what to do if you found a gun and how not to accidentally shoot yourself or someone else. Wasn’t until five years later that I survived my first school shooting (I was in high school). Two years after that I survived a school shooting at college.
I understand how impactful it can feel to be somewhere where someone later dies. But reading those stories in this thread is … it’s weird. That need to be close to something that has left me unable to go to a school campus of any kind without intense PTSD that has kept me from being able to pursue further education. The teenagers who survived the Florida shooting all showed up and advocated and lobbied and made impactful speeches. At least one of them killed themselves because nothing changed.
A school shooting isn’t just one event. The survivors don’t really survive. I guess we do. But I can tell you that the piece of legislation I helped get passed didn’t stop this. There are more than ever. And the liberals I know are all buying guns just like the conservatives. The *day* schools came back out of lockdown where I live? There were two separate school shootings. They didn’t make the national news because only a few people - kids - were killed.
I don’t have a point. But now you all know someone who survived a school shooting - and a bomb, even. The nihilism that comes after the burst of activism is indescribable. I know I shouldn’t read news like this. I try not to. It’s a form of self harm, and I know it. It’s not just the republicans who are going to keep their guns after this. It’s not a political us vs them. It’s that no one wants to disarm first. Including democrats.
If you want to make a difference convince each person in your life to give up their personal guns. Start there.
posted by Bottlecap at 10:04 AM on May 25, 2022 [89 favorites]
I understand how impactful it can feel to be somewhere where someone later dies. But reading those stories in this thread is … it’s weird. That need to be close to something that has left me unable to go to a school campus of any kind without intense PTSD that has kept me from being able to pursue further education. The teenagers who survived the Florida shooting all showed up and advocated and lobbied and made impactful speeches. At least one of them killed themselves because nothing changed.
A school shooting isn’t just one event. The survivors don’t really survive. I guess we do. But I can tell you that the piece of legislation I helped get passed didn’t stop this. There are more than ever. And the liberals I know are all buying guns just like the conservatives. The *day* schools came back out of lockdown where I live? There were two separate school shootings. They didn’t make the national news because only a few people - kids - were killed.
I don’t have a point. But now you all know someone who survived a school shooting - and a bomb, even. The nihilism that comes after the burst of activism is indescribable. I know I shouldn’t read news like this. I try not to. It’s a form of self harm, and I know it. It’s not just the republicans who are going to keep their guns after this. It’s not a political us vs them. It’s that no one wants to disarm first. Including democrats.
If you want to make a difference convince each person in your life to give up their personal guns. Start there.
posted by Bottlecap at 10:04 AM on May 25, 2022 [89 favorites]
I ask again: what can you do to stop gun violence, and are you doing it?
I'm doing what many studies suggest is the most powerful thing I can do to stop gun violence--I don't own a gun.
(Can we please not go here? Not everyone is an elected official. And I don't think responding to frustrations about the lack of any progress with "well what are you doing?" is very productive)
posted by RonButNotStupid at 10:04 AM on May 25, 2022 [42 favorites]
I'm doing what many studies suggest is the most powerful thing I can do to stop gun violence--I don't own a gun.
(Can we please not go here? Not everyone is an elected official. And I don't think responding to frustrations about the lack of any progress with "well what are you doing?" is very productive)
posted by RonButNotStupid at 10:04 AM on May 25, 2022 [42 favorites]
All I can do is vote and protest and donate. I do all three of those. But the public servants entrusted with protecting me aren't doing shit.
A fourth thing to do - call or write to those very public servants and tell them off. I just did that myself, actually. I've written to Senators Schumer AND Gillibrand - Schumer said that he's going to wait on bringing bills to the Senate floor still, and said that if Americans are unhappy about things they can remember that at the polls this November. I pointed out that at the rate we're doing, between now and November we'll have another 250 people die from mass shootings, and I asked him exactly how he would explain his hesitation to them.
For Gillibrand I reminded her that 90% of us want the Senate to DO SOMETHING already, and urged her to actually act now since her colleague Schumer wouldn't.
And I'm going to keep in touch with both. Phone and email.
So, that's something else you could try maybe.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:07 AM on May 25, 2022 [9 favorites]
A fourth thing to do - call or write to those very public servants and tell them off. I just did that myself, actually. I've written to Senators Schumer AND Gillibrand - Schumer said that he's going to wait on bringing bills to the Senate floor still, and said that if Americans are unhappy about things they can remember that at the polls this November. I pointed out that at the rate we're doing, between now and November we'll have another 250 people die from mass shootings, and I asked him exactly how he would explain his hesitation to them.
For Gillibrand I reminded her that 90% of us want the Senate to DO SOMETHING already, and urged her to actually act now since her colleague Schumer wouldn't.
And I'm going to keep in touch with both. Phone and email.
So, that's something else you could try maybe.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:07 AM on May 25, 2022 [9 favorites]
Please - again - I ask you to convince the people YOU KNOW to surrender their own guns to a buyback program or meltdown event. Disarm and convince the people you know to disarm.
posted by Bottlecap at 10:09 AM on May 25, 2022 [9 favorites]
posted by Bottlecap at 10:09 AM on May 25, 2022 [9 favorites]
Can we please not go here? Not everyone is an elected official. And I don't think responding to frustrations about the lack of any progress with "well what are you doing?" is very productive.
Okay: I'll stop the "well what are you doing" if we can all also stop with the "well why hasn't [insert name of government official here] done something yet", because that doesn't help either.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:10 AM on May 25, 2022 [5 favorites]
Okay: I'll stop the "well what are you doing" if we can all also stop with the "well why hasn't [insert name of government official here] done something yet", because that doesn't help either.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:10 AM on May 25, 2022 [5 favorites]
So, that's something else you could try maybe.
I've done that, too. We could break down my entire resume on the issue here if that suits you, but I'm thinking in the end, there is a substantial likelihood that I personally am not the weak link in the push for gun control. Lots of drops of water make a flood and all, sure, but I'm already moving.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:11 AM on May 25, 2022 [28 favorites]
I've done that, too. We could break down my entire resume on the issue here if that suits you, but I'm thinking in the end, there is a substantial likelihood that I personally am not the weak link in the push for gun control. Lots of drops of water make a flood and all, sure, but I'm already moving.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:11 AM on May 25, 2022 [28 favorites]
Obviously, lawsuits against the NRA are a different animal than gun control laws.
But on the subject of being mad at public officials for inaction, if anyone thinks the problem is that this issue has come on us suddenly or that our public servants have simply never had the time or opportunity to pursue reasonable gun control, I would like to hear that argument.
Given that Australia passed its gun control laws the same year as the Port Arthur Massacre, I do not think people are likely to find that particularly convincing.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:14 AM on May 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
But on the subject of being mad at public officials for inaction, if anyone thinks the problem is that this issue has come on us suddenly or that our public servants have simply never had the time or opportunity to pursue reasonable gun control, I would like to hear that argument.
Given that Australia passed its gun control laws the same year as the Port Arthur Massacre, I do not think people are likely to find that particularly convincing.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:14 AM on May 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
If this sentence doesn’t destroy you, nothing can.
I hate that this is probably true.
I was 10 when Columbine happened. For context, that means I was 8 during the Oklahoma City bombing, 13 during 9/11.
I don't remember how old I was when the active shooter drills became just another thing at school, like fire drills. A ritual removed from the reality. Maybe junior high? Turn off the lights, lock the door, hide in the corner, don't make a sound. All done. Nervous laughter. Black humor. Back to learning. Repeat as necessary until graduation.
I don't recall if my university had active shooter drills, but I can't recall any fire drills either. They must have, because I was 19 and a sophomore when the Virginia Tech shooting happened.
It's been a decade since Sandy Hook. I was 24 then. The Aurora movie theater shooting happened that same year.
20 first graders murdered. This was possibly the first and last time I can recall feeling actual sadness because of a shooting. I even cried. I cry easily, for many things, just not shootings. It cut deeply through layers of psychological scar tissue in a way I didn't know was possible.
And then nothing came of it. Nothing changed. Of course not. Why would it?
This morning I woke up to my partner looking upset, and I asked what was wrong. "Another shooting."
And I actually got annoyed. I got irritated and resentful and grumbled "stop reading about it, there's always going to be another shooting."
I'm 34 now. I feel nothing about this latest shooting. Nothing. Numb doesn't really cover it. At most a distant, abstracted disappointment, maybe? More of a thought than an emotion. The next one will be the same.
Because I can't possibly let myself feel anything at all when they happen, else I think I would have been destroyed decades ago by this unremitting trauma.
I don't actually know what would be any different if I had been already.
posted by rustybullrake at 10:23 AM on May 25, 2022 [22 favorites]
I hate that this is probably true.
I was 10 when Columbine happened. For context, that means I was 8 during the Oklahoma City bombing, 13 during 9/11.
I don't remember how old I was when the active shooter drills became just another thing at school, like fire drills. A ritual removed from the reality. Maybe junior high? Turn off the lights, lock the door, hide in the corner, don't make a sound. All done. Nervous laughter. Black humor. Back to learning. Repeat as necessary until graduation.
I don't recall if my university had active shooter drills, but I can't recall any fire drills either. They must have, because I was 19 and a sophomore when the Virginia Tech shooting happened.
It's been a decade since Sandy Hook. I was 24 then. The Aurora movie theater shooting happened that same year.
20 first graders murdered. This was possibly the first and last time I can recall feeling actual sadness because of a shooting. I even cried. I cry easily, for many things, just not shootings. It cut deeply through layers of psychological scar tissue in a way I didn't know was possible.
And then nothing came of it. Nothing changed. Of course not. Why would it?
This morning I woke up to my partner looking upset, and I asked what was wrong. "Another shooting."
And I actually got annoyed. I got irritated and resentful and grumbled "stop reading about it, there's always going to be another shooting."
I'm 34 now. I feel nothing about this latest shooting. Nothing. Numb doesn't really cover it. At most a distant, abstracted disappointment, maybe? More of a thought than an emotion. The next one will be the same.
Because I can't possibly let myself feel anything at all when they happen, else I think I would have been destroyed decades ago by this unremitting trauma.
I don't actually know what would be any different if I had been already.
posted by rustybullrake at 10:23 AM on May 25, 2022 [22 favorites]
DirtyOldTown: I apologize.
I think we're all mad and it's making us all a little testy, and I'm sorry that got the better of me.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:24 AM on May 25, 2022 [25 favorites]
I think we're all mad and it's making us all a little testy, and I'm sorry that got the better of me.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:24 AM on May 25, 2022 [25 favorites]
Totally fair. Futility makes cranks us of all. No hard feelings.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:25 AM on May 25, 2022 [23 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:25 AM on May 25, 2022 [23 favorites]
From Alex Pareene's substack newsletter, "The Unanswered Question" (emphasis in original):
Anyway, 19 little kids are dead, and I don’t expect anything meaningful will be done to prevent the next 19 little kids from getting killed. I know most of the complex logistical, legal, cultural, and political reasons why our system is incapable of preventing this. I leave those explanations to other authors. I ask instead what anyone with power in this country—a group that has intentionally excluded young people from its ranks—plans to do about those reasons. And I invite the reader to think about the implications of the fact that those people with power cannot answer my question with anything remotely credible. What are you going to do about the fact that we all know you can’t do anything?posted by mhum at 10:29 AM on May 25, 2022 [20 favorites]
I have family members who were irate that their children had to wear masks in school. They organized, they yelled and to them it was the biggest tragedy of all time and Gov. Newsom of California was a child-hating fascist.
Their response to what just happened? Some postings about how children have died here and hey lets NOT politicize this!
Those who vote for Trump and other fascists do not actually love their children in what we would consider the normal sense. Their kids are merely political pawns to be tossed out if they don’t meet the parent’s narrow scope of acceptance, all while claiming it’s for their own good. To them, Death is merely a convenient end to the political discrepancy.
posted by I will not be Heiled at 10:38 AM on May 25, 2022 [5 favorites]
Their response to what just happened? Some postings about how children have died here and hey lets NOT politicize this!
Those who vote for Trump and other fascists do not actually love their children in what we would consider the normal sense. Their kids are merely political pawns to be tossed out if they don’t meet the parent’s narrow scope of acceptance, all while claiming it’s for their own good. To them, Death is merely a convenient end to the political discrepancy.
posted by I will not be Heiled at 10:38 AM on May 25, 2022 [5 favorites]
The next one will be the same
don't bet on it. anger comes back when you least expect it, especially to the old.
I think I felt more or less the same way for the last several big famous ones. hard to remember how exactly you felt when you weren't strongly affected. but the protecting effect of total emotional detachment is not reliably permanent. thank god.
posted by queenofbithynia at 10:44 AM on May 25, 2022 [4 favorites]
Gun culture in this country is BONKERS. My neighbors (mid/upper middle class Chicago suburb) have been enjoying retelling the story of a guy who got carjacked at a gas station near here who ran out into the street and popped off six shots at the carjacker. They tell it like it's an inspiring story of standing up for yourself and criminals getting what's coming to them.
I cannot help but ask, "Are you saying you think it's a good thing that a guy was standing in a major intersection a few blocks from the high school shooting bullets into the dark over a used Chevy Suburban? In front of the gas station my partner and kid go to twice a week?"
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:54 AM on May 25, 2022 [24 favorites]
I cannot help but ask, "Are you saying you think it's a good thing that a guy was standing in a major intersection a few blocks from the high school shooting bullets into the dark over a used Chevy Suburban? In front of the gas station my partner and kid go to twice a week?"
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:54 AM on May 25, 2022 [24 favorites]
Okay - I am now hearing that Beto O'Rourke was at TX Governor Abbot's press conference just now and got up to confront him about the shooting, and it got to the point that police had to escort him out.
Does ANYONE have a link to video for this because THIS I wanna see.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:54 AM on May 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
Does ANYONE have a link to video for this because THIS I wanna see.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:54 AM on May 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
Does ANYONE have a link to video for this because THIS I wanna see.
Here you go
posted by rhymedirective at 10:59 AM on May 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
Here you go
posted by rhymedirective at 10:59 AM on May 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
Does ANYONE have a link to video for this because THIS I wanna see.
Here you go from a Fox News clip.
And an angle from inside the room. Another angle.
posted by fight or flight at 10:59 AM on May 25, 2022
Here you go from a Fox News clip.
And an angle from inside the room. Another angle.
posted by fight or flight at 10:59 AM on May 25, 2022
The Onion's homepage currently consists only of their ‘No Way To Prevent This,’ Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens articles they've posted over the years (and far too many of them), plus NRA-related articles such as NRA Insists That Most Recent Mass Shooting Does Not Accurately Reflect Potential Deadliness Of Firearm.
posted by fight or flight at 11:03 AM on May 25, 2022 [19 favorites]
posted by fight or flight at 11:03 AM on May 25, 2022 [19 favorites]
Yes. Everyone needs to make this a "political issue." Right now. I want ALL my politicians doing this.
posted by tiny frying pan at 11:03 AM on May 25, 2022 [9 favorites]
posted by tiny frying pan at 11:03 AM on May 25, 2022 [9 favorites]
I went to see Belle and Sebastian last night and before one song, the lead singer mentioned that the band had seen the news of the shooting, how sorry they were, and why doesn't the US government DO SOMETHING. I think maybe he didn't realize how numb most of us are to these events and how much more of a big deal it was to the band than a concert hall full of (mostly southern) Americans.
The energy was more of "Yup, it's a day that ends in a 'Y', of course there's been a shooting! What are we supposed to do, our government is broken?" Clearly our government doesn't care about life as much as the UKs.
posted by schyler523 at 11:04 AM on May 25, 2022 [5 favorites]
The energy was more of "Yup, it's a day that ends in a 'Y', of course there's been a shooting! What are we supposed to do, our government is broken?" Clearly our government doesn't care about life as much as the UKs.
posted by schyler523 at 11:04 AM on May 25, 2022 [5 favorites]
We're past the point where individual actions matter.
Respectfully, that's bullshit.
What good does recycling do vs an Exxon? Voting blue in a deep red state in a country full of gerrymandering and suppression? Donations to abortion rights groups when it's about to be banned nationwide? Advocating for LGBTQIA+ rights when I think half the country is getting propoganda that I should be at least jailed?
Local actions matter. Recycling or cleaning up trash locally helps locally. Voting blue locally CAN make a difference nationally (Stacy Abrams, anyone?) Donations to abortion groups can ensure that individual women get an abortion. Advocating for LGBTQIA+ rights matters, just like saying Black Lives Matter, matters. Half the country doesn't think you should be jailed. Not even close.
I get the frustrating, but throwing up of hands is offensive. Giving up is not an option, not matter how much despair we feel. ONE life saved because of action matters. Don't let them win by giving in to hopelessness.
posted by tiny frying pan at 11:08 AM on May 25, 2022 [21 favorites]
Respectfully, that's bullshit.
What good does recycling do vs an Exxon? Voting blue in a deep red state in a country full of gerrymandering and suppression? Donations to abortion rights groups when it's about to be banned nationwide? Advocating for LGBTQIA+ rights when I think half the country is getting propoganda that I should be at least jailed?
Local actions matter. Recycling or cleaning up trash locally helps locally. Voting blue locally CAN make a difference nationally (Stacy Abrams, anyone?) Donations to abortion groups can ensure that individual women get an abortion. Advocating for LGBTQIA+ rights matters, just like saying Black Lives Matter, matters. Half the country doesn't think you should be jailed. Not even close.
I get the frustrating, but throwing up of hands is offensive. Giving up is not an option, not matter how much despair we feel. ONE life saved because of action matters. Don't let them win by giving in to hopelessness.
posted by tiny frying pan at 11:08 AM on May 25, 2022 [21 favorites]
I personally am losing hope in this government. But I am not hopeless in terms of throwing my hands up and quitting.
Let's say I am becoming open to a new Constitution and leave it at that.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 11:13 AM on May 25, 2022 [4 favorites]
Let's say I am becoming open to a new Constitution and leave it at that.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 11:13 AM on May 25, 2022 [4 favorites]
A comfortable majority of the American people support sensible gun control laws. The people who don't care are representing a minority that is enjoying disproportionate and undemocratic political control.
Support For Stricter Gun Laws Drops Under 50%
posted by thoughtful_jester at 11:24 AM on May 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
Support For Stricter Gun Laws Drops Under 50%
posted by thoughtful_jester at 11:24 AM on May 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
All the gun nuts are calling their representatives right now, telling them that if they try to do something, they lose a vote. I know this because someone I used to know did it, and bragged about it, and told me that so many others do the same that it can be impossible to get through, but that he'd devote the whole day to it if he needed to, and every time he followed up with an email and a physical letter sent through the actual post.
His context was in a reply to some meme that someone posted to their circle of friends on facebook. He was bragging because even though only a third of Americans own guns, they would always outnumber everyone else in actual contact with representatives, because while they were picking up the phone and shouting, the rest of us were being nice and quiet posting memes on facebook. Posting memes feels like doing something, when really we're being silent and letting the gun nuts have our representatives' attention.
Right now phones are ringing off the hook, and on the other end of the line is someone who wants a gun on every belt. I added my voice, and made it clear that I'm ready to support a complete repeal of the second amendment and the banning of all firearms; I'm aware it's an extreme position, but I think it's time the pro-gun side did some compromising for a change.
posted by FeatherWatt at 11:35 AM on May 25, 2022 [18 favorites]
His context was in a reply to some meme that someone posted to their circle of friends on facebook. He was bragging because even though only a third of Americans own guns, they would always outnumber everyone else in actual contact with representatives, because while they were picking up the phone and shouting, the rest of us were being nice and quiet posting memes on facebook. Posting memes feels like doing something, when really we're being silent and letting the gun nuts have our representatives' attention.
Right now phones are ringing off the hook, and on the other end of the line is someone who wants a gun on every belt. I added my voice, and made it clear that I'm ready to support a complete repeal of the second amendment and the banning of all firearms; I'm aware it's an extreme position, but I think it's time the pro-gun side did some compromising for a change.
posted by FeatherWatt at 11:35 AM on May 25, 2022 [18 favorites]
After getting booted, Beto went outside and kept going.
posted by fight or flight at 11:49 AM on May 25, 2022 [35 favorites]
posted by fight or flight at 11:49 AM on May 25, 2022 [35 favorites]
Pint:
All the gun nuts are calling their representatives right now, telling them that if they try to do something, they lose a vote.
Counterpoint (David Hogg) on Twitter.
I’ve been working on this for four years and spent every day studying in college the history of how we got here, political science, behavioral economics, and reflecting on how we win.
Mark my words. This time will be different.
I'm siding with the pessimists, because I always side with the pessimists. As always, a day when I'm made to eat my words is a good day.
posted by ocschwar at 11:51 AM on May 25, 2022 [15 favorites]
All the gun nuts are calling their representatives right now, telling them that if they try to do something, they lose a vote.
Counterpoint (David Hogg) on Twitter.
I’ve been working on this for four years and spent every day studying in college the history of how we got here, political science, behavioral economics, and reflecting on how we win.
Mark my words. This time will be different.
I'm siding with the pessimists, because I always side with the pessimists. As always, a day when I'm made to eat my words is a good day.
posted by ocschwar at 11:51 AM on May 25, 2022 [15 favorites]
It won't be different until there is such a level of cultural outrage that politicians actually experience the fury of voters for their association with the NRA. It has to be as toxic to their political careers as belonging to the Klan. Right now it is almost the opposite in a lot of states.
posted by interogative mood at 11:59 AM on May 25, 2022 [9 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 11:59 AM on May 25, 2022 [9 favorites]
Does ANYONE have a link to video for this because THIS I wanna see.
Note the complaints about making it a "political issue." If it isn't a political issue, why are the politicians talking about it?
They know their constituents hate the murders and they know they aren't doing anything about it because it's their party policy. They just hope no one else notices, which is why O'Rourke is so inconvenient to them.
And now the coverage will be about the confrontation, not whatever obfuscation the officials were trying. Good.
posted by Gelatin at 12:02 PM on May 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
Note the complaints about making it a "political issue." If it isn't a political issue, why are the politicians talking about it?
They know their constituents hate the murders and they know they aren't doing anything about it because it's their party policy. They just hope no one else notices, which is why O'Rourke is so inconvenient to them.
And now the coverage will be about the confrontation, not whatever obfuscation the officials were trying. Good.
posted by Gelatin at 12:02 PM on May 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
By definition it won't be different until the nihilist left is drowned out by the phone (and email, postal, online) jammers.
posted by rhizome at 12:03 PM on May 25, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by rhizome at 12:03 PM on May 25, 2022 [4 favorites]
"I’ve been working on this for four years and spent every day studying in college the history of how we got here"
I imagine that part of the story of how we got here must include the so-called Revolt at Cincinnati where a relatively small cadre of gun fanatics took over the NRA in 1977 and transformed it from a relatively anodyne organization focused on things like marksmanship, hunting, and gun safety to, well, the NRA we know today. This Washington Post article (archive.org link) from 2013 provides more details.
posted by mhum at 12:07 PM on May 25, 2022 [8 favorites]
I imagine that part of the story of how we got here must include the so-called Revolt at Cincinnati where a relatively small cadre of gun fanatics took over the NRA in 1977 and transformed it from a relatively anodyne organization focused on things like marksmanship, hunting, and gun safety to, well, the NRA we know today. This Washington Post article (archive.org link) from 2013 provides more details.
posted by mhum at 12:07 PM on May 25, 2022 [8 favorites]
It's the money. Gun money, oil money, fundamentalist money. Dark money. They've legalized bribery, and the people you need to fix it? Guess what.
It's like asking a chicken how to make chicken soup. They're going to skip some pretty fucking important ingredients.
posted by adept256 at 12:09 PM on May 25, 2022 [21 favorites]
It's like asking a chicken how to make chicken soup. They're going to skip some pretty fucking important ingredients.
posted by adept256 at 12:09 PM on May 25, 2022 [21 favorites]
He was bragging because even though only a third of Americans own guns, they would always outnumber everyone else in actual contact with representatives, because while they were picking up the phone and shouting, the rest of us were being nice and quiet posting memes on facebook. Posting memes feels like doing something, when really we're being silent and letting the gun nuts have our representatives' attention.
Earlier today I'd already emailed both my Senators. After reading this, I also called both of them. (I mean, I got their voicemails in both cases, but I called.)
I'll call some of their other offices tomorrow as well, and again on Friday.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:09 PM on May 25, 2022 [5 favorites]
Earlier today I'd already emailed both my Senators. After reading this, I also called both of them. (I mean, I got their voicemails in both cases, but I called.)
I'll call some of their other offices tomorrow as well, and again on Friday.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:09 PM on May 25, 2022 [5 favorites]
I feel nothing about this latest shooting. Nothing. Numb doesn't really cover it. At most a distant, abstracted disappointment, maybe? More of a thought than an emotion. The next one will be the same.
Same here. The usual pointless, fruitless, numb anger of "nothing is ever going to change," same with every other damn thing that sucks in the world.
posted by jenfullmoon at 12:19 PM on May 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
Same here. The usual pointless, fruitless, numb anger of "nothing is ever going to change," same with every other damn thing that sucks in the world.
posted by jenfullmoon at 12:19 PM on May 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
@ChristopherJM: I'm in Ukraine, a warzone. Russian attacks are constant, airstrikes hit Ukrainian cities overnight. But the first two Ukrainians I saw when I woke up today asked me about the Texas elementary school shooting where a gunman killed 19 children. "Why? How?"
posted by mazola at 12:26 PM on May 25, 2022 [78 favorites]
posted by mazola at 12:26 PM on May 25, 2022 [78 favorites]
We're past the point where individual actions matter.
So, I think that one of the differences I notice when people are talking about whether or not individual actions can matter, is kind of the difference between a very reasonable desire to "fix this NOW", and a feeling that this will not be fixed in the near term, but that the steps can be put in place to fix it.
Right now, we are seeing stochaistic violence among largely white or white-passing heterosexual men ages 16-45 who felt they were promised a dominant role in the world and they are not seeing it. They are usually economically precarious to some extent, and have interrupted relationships with women that they have found ego-unsatisfying and generally resorted to violence previously. They have usually had a history of escalating harassment, threats, and interpersonal violence. They often have a history of escalating firearm accumulation, They usually progress to shooting people that they feel are either responsible for their problems, or are likely to be more successful than they are.
At any one of those points, there are a lot of ways to interrupt this cycle, both individually, and collectively. Those of us who are doing work on eliminating patriarchal dominance in society are ultimately unwinding the promises that impel these young men to this violence. Those of us who work in labor and economic justice are trying to create a world in which people do not feel hopeless enough to be willing to destroy. Those of us who work in conflict resolution, mediation, and interpersonal violence interruption are helping to create intervention processes that find individuals who are likely to engage in violence and help create a world where they do not cause more. Those who work in firearm regulation advocacy help to create less violence when violence erupts. Those who work in community organizing help to refocus the anger of people who feel the world is broken to healthy places rather than violence.
All of these individual actions matter. None of them will Solve The Problem, alone. But all of these actions matter and all of these actions are actions that many, many mefites take in their daily lives. Your actions matter. Your work matters. You are saving lives, even if you don't know it.
posted by corb at 12:31 PM on May 25, 2022 [68 favorites]
So, I think that one of the differences I notice when people are talking about whether or not individual actions can matter, is kind of the difference between a very reasonable desire to "fix this NOW", and a feeling that this will not be fixed in the near term, but that the steps can be put in place to fix it.
Right now, we are seeing stochaistic violence among largely white or white-passing heterosexual men ages 16-45 who felt they were promised a dominant role in the world and they are not seeing it. They are usually economically precarious to some extent, and have interrupted relationships with women that they have found ego-unsatisfying and generally resorted to violence previously. They have usually had a history of escalating harassment, threats, and interpersonal violence. They often have a history of escalating firearm accumulation, They usually progress to shooting people that they feel are either responsible for their problems, or are likely to be more successful than they are.
At any one of those points, there are a lot of ways to interrupt this cycle, both individually, and collectively. Those of us who are doing work on eliminating patriarchal dominance in society are ultimately unwinding the promises that impel these young men to this violence. Those of us who work in labor and economic justice are trying to create a world in which people do not feel hopeless enough to be willing to destroy. Those of us who work in conflict resolution, mediation, and interpersonal violence interruption are helping to create intervention processes that find individuals who are likely to engage in violence and help create a world where they do not cause more. Those who work in firearm regulation advocacy help to create less violence when violence erupts. Those who work in community organizing help to refocus the anger of people who feel the world is broken to healthy places rather than violence.
All of these individual actions matter. None of them will Solve The Problem, alone. But all of these actions matter and all of these actions are actions that many, many mefites take in their daily lives. Your actions matter. Your work matters. You are saving lives, even if you don't know it.
posted by corb at 12:31 PM on May 25, 2022 [68 favorites]
My wife, who is an elementary school teacher, and I had the opportunity to grab breakfast at a cute diner near our house this morning before work.
The first thing we saw when we walked inside? A guy wearing an NRA t-shirt.
That's certainly a fucking choice in this so-called land of the free, home of the brave.
I wish I had been brave enough to ask him "Have you left no sense of decency, sir?" But. You know how things are in this country: black man asking a guy in an NRA shirt something like that, he could claim he felt threatened and shoot me.
.
for the souls we lost yesterday.
posted by lord_wolf at 12:32 PM on May 25, 2022 [96 favorites]
The first thing we saw when we walked inside? A guy wearing an NRA t-shirt.
That's certainly a fucking choice in this so-called land of the free, home of the brave.
I wish I had been brave enough to ask him "Have you left no sense of decency, sir?" But. You know how things are in this country: black man asking a guy in an NRA shirt something like that, he could claim he felt threatened and shoot me.
.
for the souls we lost yesterday.
posted by lord_wolf at 12:32 PM on May 25, 2022 [96 favorites]
Robb Elementary School, Uvalde Texas. May 24, 2022.
Victims' names, and the loved ones who identified them:
Uziyah Garcia, age 8. Grandfather Manny Renfro
Amerie Jo Garza, age 10. Father Angel Garcia
Xavier Lopez, age 10.
Rojelio Torres, age 10. Aunt Precious Perez.
Jose Flores, age 10. Uncle Christopher Salazar
Makenna Lee Elrod, age 10. Sister Kadence Elizabeth
Annabelle Guadalupe Rodriquez, age 10.
Ellie Garcia, age 10. Father Steven Garcia.
Jayce Carmelo Luevanos, age 10.
Alithia Ramirez, age 10.
Jailah Nicole Silguero, age 11.
Tessa Marie Mata. Sister Faith Mata.
Eliahana Cruz Torres.
Neveah Bravo. Cousin Emily Ayala.
Eva Mireles, grade 4 teacher.
Irma Garcia, grade 4 teacher.
(According to the Guardian article via Apple News)
.
posted by cake vandal at 12:52 PM on May 25, 2022 [9 favorites]
Victims' names, and the loved ones who identified them:
Uziyah Garcia, age 8. Grandfather Manny Renfro
Amerie Jo Garza, age 10. Father Angel Garcia
Xavier Lopez, age 10.
Rojelio Torres, age 10. Aunt Precious Perez.
Jose Flores, age 10. Uncle Christopher Salazar
Makenna Lee Elrod, age 10. Sister Kadence Elizabeth
Annabelle Guadalupe Rodriquez, age 10.
Ellie Garcia, age 10. Father Steven Garcia.
Jayce Carmelo Luevanos, age 10.
Alithia Ramirez, age 10.
Jailah Nicole Silguero, age 11.
Tessa Marie Mata. Sister Faith Mata.
Eliahana Cruz Torres.
Neveah Bravo. Cousin Emily Ayala.
Eva Mireles, grade 4 teacher.
Irma Garcia, grade 4 teacher.
(According to the Guardian article via Apple News)
.
posted by cake vandal at 12:52 PM on May 25, 2022 [9 favorites]
So the NRA is doubling down on having their big rally in Houston this weekend - "no plans to cancel". Only 3 days after the shooting.
I have the funny feeling we're about to see some heavy stuff go down between protestors and counterprotestors.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:07 PM on May 25, 2022 [9 favorites]
I have the funny feeling we're about to see some heavy stuff go down between protestors and counterprotestors.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:07 PM on May 25, 2022 [9 favorites]
I'd be happy if the headline writers would stop saying "19 students" and say "19 children."
Do you have examples of this? Every news outlet I've seen is using the word "children."
posted by neroli at 1:08 PM on May 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
Do you have examples of this? Every news outlet I've seen is using the word "children."
posted by neroli at 1:08 PM on May 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
Their siblings are identifying them? Oh, my heart.
I already contacted my Congressional delegation and told them to get it done. But my ager seeps away when I read that, and I just get so sad.
posted by wenestvedt at 1:11 PM on May 25, 2022 [4 favorites]
I already contacted my Congressional delegation and told them to get it done. But my ager seeps away when I read that, and I just get so sad.
posted by wenestvedt at 1:11 PM on May 25, 2022 [4 favorites]
"Identifying" on social media.
In that "identify" means "named" in this case, not that they went to the morgue to ID the body.
posted by cooker girl at 1:14 PM on May 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
In that "identify" means "named" in this case, not that they went to the morgue to ID the body.
posted by cooker girl at 1:14 PM on May 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
I have the funny feeling we're about to see some heavy stuff go down between protestors and counterprotestors.
In a compassionate world, protesters silently holding up a photo of the destroyed classroom would be enough. Not showing any dead kids, of course, just the tiny chairs and happy motivational posters on the wall covered in I can only imagine how much blood. That would be enough for any human being with a heart capable of breaking.
posted by bink at 1:20 PM on May 25, 2022 [6 favorites]
In a compassionate world, protesters silently holding up a photo of the destroyed classroom would be enough. Not showing any dead kids, of course, just the tiny chairs and happy motivational posters on the wall covered in I can only imagine how much blood. That would be enough for any human being with a heart capable of breaking.
posted by bink at 1:20 PM on May 25, 2022 [6 favorites]
@AdamBest:
Uvalde: AR-15posted by JoeZydeco at 1:24 PM on May 25, 2022 [39 favorites]
Buffalo: AR-15
Boulder: AR-15
Orlando: AR-15
Parkland: AR-15
Las Vegas: AR-15
Aurora, CO: AR-15
Sandy Hook: AR-15
Waffle House: AR-15
San Bernardino: AR-15
Midland/Odessa: AR-15
Poway synagogue: AR-15
Sutherland Springs: AR-15
Tree of Life Synagogue: AR-15
Bink: you're right, but because this is the NRA we're talking about what I'm expecting is something that future historians will be discussing like this:
"While many factors contributed to the national tension, the real catalyst for the Second United States Civil War began between two groups of demonstrators outside a convention center in Houston, then known as the capital of the former state of Texas...."
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:24 PM on May 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
"While many factors contributed to the national tension, the real catalyst for the Second United States Civil War began between two groups of demonstrators outside a convention center in Houston, then known as the capital of the former state of Texas...."
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:24 PM on May 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
AR-15
Beau of the Fifth Column had an episode about AR-15s and gun control a week and a half ago. I recommend watching it.
That episode raises some questions, which he answers in another episode, also well worth your time.
posted by bink at 1:31 PM on May 25, 2022 [7 favorites]
Beau of the Fifth Column had an episode about AR-15s and gun control a week and a half ago. I recommend watching it.
That episode raises some questions, which he answers in another episode, also well worth your time.
posted by bink at 1:31 PM on May 25, 2022 [7 favorites]
Austin's the capital of Texas. (For now, at least; if shit goes even more sideways than it already has, who knows where the fascists will relocate the capital.)
I'm planning on going to the protest Friday. Right-wingers routinely carry firearms at protests here, but I'm expecting a whole lot more guns than usual. It's gonna be real fuckin' ugly.
posted by heteronym at 1:33 PM on May 25, 2022 [10 favorites]
I'm planning on going to the protest Friday. Right-wingers routinely carry firearms at protests here, but I'm expecting a whole lot more guns than usual. It's gonna be real fuckin' ugly.
posted by heteronym at 1:33 PM on May 25, 2022 [10 favorites]
bink, I appreciate the impulse behind sharing those informational links, but I don't want to learn more about guns. I have NRA medals in the basement from high school, I know how to handle a gun. I just think there's too damn many of them.
I feel like I have met the gun nuts more than half-way. It's their turn to stop flooding my country with weapons, you know?
posted by wenestvedt at 1:36 PM on May 25, 2022 [27 favorites]
I feel like I have met the gun nuts more than half-way. It's their turn to stop flooding my country with weapons, you know?
posted by wenestvedt at 1:36 PM on May 25, 2022 [27 favorites]
There is no justifiable reason someone should have an AR-15 just hanging around the house.
posted by jenfullmoon at 1:43 PM on May 25, 2022 [22 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 1:43 PM on May 25, 2022 [22 favorites]
Shootings aren’t a sign America is ‘broken’. It’s working exactly as intended (Ryan Busse)
"I was a firearms exec for years. The industry used to adhere to self-imposed rules and norms – until gun makers and lobby groups like the NRA realized fear and extremism sold more guns"
posted by CheesesOfBrazil at 1:46 PM on May 25, 2022 [8 favorites]
"I was a firearms exec for years. The industry used to adhere to self-imposed rules and norms – until gun makers and lobby groups like the NRA realized fear and extremism sold more guns"
posted by CheesesOfBrazil at 1:46 PM on May 25, 2022 [8 favorites]
My apologies for mis-remembering Texas' capital. I'm from New York where we do things all weird. :-)
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 2:01 PM on May 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 2:01 PM on May 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
Treating the AR-15 as a special case is a very bad move. It's like saying that banning the Ford F-Series is going to stop a lot of traffic accidents. Just because something is the best in its class does not mean there isn't a second best waiting to step in.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 2:19 PM on May 25, 2022 [13 favorites]
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 2:19 PM on May 25, 2022 [13 favorites]
Yeah, I'm not buying that. If the F-series pickup could plow through an accident scene, keep going, then crash into 20 more cars afterward we'd ban the fuck out of it.
We do not need military weapons in the hands of civilians. FULL STOP.
posted by JoeZydeco at 2:22 PM on May 25, 2022 [17 favorites]
We do not need military weapons in the hands of civilians. FULL STOP.
posted by JoeZydeco at 2:22 PM on May 25, 2022 [17 favorites]
I think an interesting opportunity has opened up now that we have an originalist reinterpreting the constitution in the Supreme Court. There is a school of thought that says that the "arms" mentioned in the second amendment are solely the weapons that existed at the time it was written. I'd love to see one of the states try that interpretation.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 2:27 PM on May 25, 2022 [11 favorites]
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 2:27 PM on May 25, 2022 [11 favorites]
It has to be as toxic to their political careers as belonging to the Klan
hahahaha bold assumption that Klan membership would be all that toxic these days
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 2:27 PM on May 25, 2022 [21 favorites]
hahahaha bold assumption that Klan membership would be all that toxic these days
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 2:27 PM on May 25, 2022 [21 favorites]
Yeah, I'm not buying that. If the F-series pickup could plow through an accident scene, keep going, then crash into 20 more cars afterward we'd ban the fuck out of it.
The point is that if there were literally hundreds of models of cars that could do that, banning only the F-series just because it's best would be a waste of time and effort.
We do not need military weapons in the hands of civilians. FULL STOP.
Well yes, that's the point. All of them, not just the AR-15.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 2:29 PM on May 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
The point is that if there were literally hundreds of models of cars that could do that, banning only the F-series just because it's best would be a waste of time and effort.
We do not need military weapons in the hands of civilians. FULL STOP.
Well yes, that's the point. All of them, not just the AR-15.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 2:29 PM on May 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
I wish I had been brave enough to ask him "Have you left no sense of decency, sir?" But. You know how things are in this country: black man asking a guy in an NRA shirt something like that, he could claim he felt threatened and shoot me.
I hereby promise to use my "small unthreatening white lady" privilege to shout "read the fucking room jagbag" at any individual wearing any kind of gun fanboi bullshit on your (and my) behalf.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 2:30 PM on May 25, 2022 [38 favorites]
I hereby promise to use my "small unthreatening white lady" privilege to shout "read the fucking room jagbag" at any individual wearing any kind of gun fanboi bullshit on your (and my) behalf.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 2:30 PM on May 25, 2022 [38 favorites]
Not trying to threadsit, but, for reference, Beau's not a gun nut. He does start off with information about ARs and other weapons since it's relevant to what he says later.
Spoiler: ARs aren't the problem, and the problem is about to get a lot worse.
posted by bink at 2:31 PM on May 25, 2022 [7 favorites]
Spoiler: ARs aren't the problem, and the problem is about to get a lot worse.
posted by bink at 2:31 PM on May 25, 2022 [7 favorites]
I think some people have the causation logic backwards. Mass shooters have used AR-15s before, which means other mass shooters know that's the name brand for mass shootings. There are other assault weapons, and other weapons with assault weapon like features, and defining exactly what is and isn't the kind of weapon that will facilitate mass deaths has proven to be a nightmare that lets NRA and other pro-gun factions control the debate by getting it mired in technical details.
I'd be fine having National Guard members go door-to-door to collect all the guns today, but this is about more than just one model, one manufacturer, or even one single class of guns. Any energy spent getting into the mud with the gun nuts is energy taken away from getting universal background checks.
posted by tonycpsu at 2:35 PM on May 25, 2022 [4 favorites]
I'd be fine having National Guard members go door-to-door to collect all the guns today, but this is about more than just one model, one manufacturer, or even one single class of guns. Any energy spent getting into the mud with the gun nuts is energy taken away from getting universal background checks.
posted by tonycpsu at 2:35 PM on May 25, 2022 [4 favorites]
After the attacks on September 11th, 2001, people called Mohammed Atta and his cohort cowards but that was one thing they never were. It took real steel to fly airliners into the Twin Towers .
Shooting small children on the other hand does not. There could never be an equivalent to, say, Flight 93 on 9/11 in school shootings where a roomful of small children could organize and initiate their own 'let's roll!' attack and overpower a killer with an an automatic long gun. The only safer thing for the gunmen would be shooting pillows or teddy bears.
Salvador Ramos locked himself in a classroom of small children and shot them all. With an AR-15. We all know who the coward was this time or has been or will be in any school shooting past, present or future.
And all these NRA types like Abbott who talked of hardening grade schools with thick concrete walls, narrow windows and single entry ways -- oh, c'mon --why not just set up a rack of unlocked AR-15s by that one door so the shooters need not strain a muscle by having to carry their own gun from their own car before they blast their way in?
posted by y2karl at 2:40 PM on May 25, 2022 [12 favorites]
Shooting small children on the other hand does not. There could never be an equivalent to, say, Flight 93 on 9/11 in school shootings where a roomful of small children could organize and initiate their own 'let's roll!' attack and overpower a killer with an an automatic long gun. The only safer thing for the gunmen would be shooting pillows or teddy bears.
Salvador Ramos locked himself in a classroom of small children and shot them all. With an AR-15. We all know who the coward was this time or has been or will be in any school shooting past, present or future.
And all these NRA types like Abbott who talked of hardening grade schools with thick concrete walls, narrow windows and single entry ways -- oh, c'mon --why not just set up a rack of unlocked AR-15s by that one door so the shooters need not strain a muscle by having to carry their own gun from their own car before they blast their way in?
posted by y2karl at 2:40 PM on May 25, 2022 [12 favorites]
Most of the hunters I know who shoot deer and elk have switched AR-15’s. It is a very comfortable gun to shoot and easy to customize to your body size and shooting style. It has a modular design so you can swap out the grip, adjust the stock to meet your arms and it has a rail system so it’s easy to mount your choice of sights or other accessories. As a gun I would say that it is probably safer to own and use for hunting than a lot of more traditional riffles. It is the Ford F-150 pickup of riffles.
That being said like the F-150 the manufacturers have decided that there is this whole other group of people who will never use the pickup truck like a real truck, will never off road with it; but who will never the less buy the huge lift kit, enormous tires and throw in hundreds of extra horse power and go menacing about streets creating traffic hell for the rest of us . The same thing has happened with the AR-15.
I think we need to figure out how we regulate the accessories and the marketing to eliminate what I call the “tactical cosplay” aspects of gun and gun accessory marketing. We have regulated the labels you can put on alcohol bottles and how you package and market cigarettes; we should take similar actions with gun manufacturers.
posted by interogative mood at 2:57 PM on May 25, 2022 [5 favorites]
That being said like the F-150 the manufacturers have decided that there is this whole other group of people who will never use the pickup truck like a real truck, will never off road with it; but who will never the less buy the huge lift kit, enormous tires and throw in hundreds of extra horse power and go menacing about streets creating traffic hell for the rest of us . The same thing has happened with the AR-15.
I think we need to figure out how we regulate the accessories and the marketing to eliminate what I call the “tactical cosplay” aspects of gun and gun accessory marketing. We have regulated the labels you can put on alcohol bottles and how you package and market cigarettes; we should take similar actions with gun manufacturers.
posted by interogative mood at 2:57 PM on May 25, 2022 [5 favorites]
Most of the hunters I know who shoot deer and elk have switched AR-15’s.
How fucking ridiculous.
posted by tiny frying pan at 2:59 PM on May 25, 2022 [27 favorites]
How fucking ridiculous.
posted by tiny frying pan at 2:59 PM on May 25, 2022 [27 favorites]
And I don't think responding to frustrations about the lack of any progress with "well what are you doing?" is very productive
On the contrary, x 10000.
posted by pelvicsorcery at 3:03 PM on May 25, 2022
On the contrary, x 10000.
posted by pelvicsorcery at 3:03 PM on May 25, 2022
So it's pretty safe to say there are no good gun owners, at this juncture. Everyone who owns a gun is complicit with these massacres, on some level, by helping further a marketplace of systemized death. That "F-150"-ed tacitly-regulation-free marketplace helped this murderer, helped every murderer before him, and will help every murderer after him buy and outfit the weapons, accessories, and ammunition they use to slaughter innocent people.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 3:06 PM on May 25, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 3:06 PM on May 25, 2022 [8 favorites]
We don't need semi-automatic long guns in the hands of citizens. We don't need semi-automatic shotguns in the hands of citizens. Straight up there are no valid uses for these devices outside of killing a lot of people quickly. Which is why they're used almost exclusively in mass shootings.
Pistols is a tricky thing because in a lot of neighborhoods and some professions these are sadly actual personal protection weapons. Plus the first people who are going to be hit by these restrictions are the vulnerable and minorities by fascist-adjacent cops and the justice system only too willing to punish.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 3:09 PM on May 25, 2022 [5 favorites]
Pistols is a tricky thing because in a lot of neighborhoods and some professions these are sadly actual personal protection weapons. Plus the first people who are going to be hit by these restrictions are the vulnerable and minorities by fascist-adjacent cops and the justice system only too willing to punish.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 3:09 PM on May 25, 2022 [5 favorites]
Everyone who owns a gun is complicit with these massacres, on some level, by helping further a marketplace of systemized death.
Along with the public policy decision making that makes State Terrorism possible. That's our representatives in Congress, all of them.
posted by bluesky43 at 3:10 PM on May 25, 2022
Along with the public policy decision making that makes State Terrorism possible. That's our representatives in Congress, all of them.
posted by bluesky43 at 3:10 PM on May 25, 2022
Ruben Gallego is a representative from Arizona
Ruben Gallego
@RubenGallego
Just to be clear fuck you
@tedcruz
you fucking baby killer.
posted by bluesky43 at 3:18 PM on May 25, 2022 [24 favorites]
Ruben Gallego
@RubenGallego
Just to be clear fuck you
@tedcruz
you fucking baby killer.
posted by bluesky43 at 3:18 PM on May 25, 2022 [24 favorites]
The NYT is reporting that the murderer was in the school for an hour before being killed. I have no words.
posted by bluesky43 at 3:28 PM on May 25, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by bluesky43 at 3:28 PM on May 25, 2022 [5 favorites]
In a room full of children in the school. Not knowing whether or not those children were all dead might have given the police some pause for awhile.
posted by y2karl at 3:43 PM on May 25, 2022
posted by y2karl at 3:43 PM on May 25, 2022
“As a country,” [Dr. Amy Goldberg] said, “we lost our teachable moment.” She started talking about the 2012 murder of 20 schoolchildren and six adults at Sandy Hook Elementary School. Goldberg said that if people had been shown the autopsy photos of the kids, the gun debate would have been transformed. “The fact that not a single one of those kids was able to be transported to a hospital, tells me that they were not just dead, but really really really really dead. Ten-year-old kids, riddled with bullets, dead as doornails.” Her voice rose. She said people have to confront the physical reality of gun violence without the polite filters. “The country won’t be ready for it, but that’s what needs to happen. That’s the only chance at all for this to ever be reversed.”Dr. Amy Goldberg, chair of Temple University Hospital's Department of Surgery in in North Philadelphia, from What Bullets Do to Bodies
She dropped back into a softer register. “Nobody gives two shits about the black people in North Philadelphia if nobody gives two craps about the white kids in Sandy Hook. … I thought white little kids getting shot would make people care. Nope. They didn’t care. Anderson Cooper was up there. They set up shop. And then the public outrage fades.”
posted by kirkaracha at 3:55 PM on May 25, 2022 [25 favorites]
Apparently the cops had time to pull their own kids out (scroll to 1 min 20s).
(The body armor thing is a lie of course)
posted by thatwhichfalls at 3:58 PM on May 25, 2022 [13 favorites]
(The body armor thing is a lie of course)
posted by thatwhichfalls at 3:58 PM on May 25, 2022 [13 favorites]
What?!?!
posted by tiny frying pan at 4:29 PM on May 25, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by tiny frying pan at 4:29 PM on May 25, 2022 [5 favorites]
This reminds me of Columbine. The cops standing around unsure what to do while the massacre continued. It is sad that our kids have had more active shooter training than the cops.
posted by interogative mood at 4:42 PM on May 25, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 4:42 PM on May 25, 2022 [8 favorites]
Apparently the cops had time to pull their own kids out (scroll to 1 min 20s).
(The body armor thing is a lie of course)
Like I said upthread. We only care if it's our kid. The callousness is both horrific and predictable.
posted by bluesky43 at 4:50 PM on May 25, 2022 [6 favorites]
(The body armor thing is a lie of course)
Like I said upthread. We only care if it's our kid. The callousness is both horrific and predictable.
posted by bluesky43 at 4:50 PM on May 25, 2022 [6 favorites]
Apparently the cops had time to pull their own kids out (scroll to 1 min 20s).
(The body armor thing is a lie of course)
That is so, so awful and by that point when the cop is saying the murderer was wearing body armor, he was very well aware that was a lie.
---
I'm in the Houston area and one of the morning drive time radio shows changed format for the day to take all listener calls.
The very first fucking person I hear says, "So, you know, these guns were purchased illegally" and thank goodness, one of the hosts interrupted her immediately and said, "No, they were bought legally." It still didn't make her change the point that she was going to make which was even if you make owning certain guns a crime, "the criminals will still get them."
I was fucking furious. With that logic, why have any laws at all?
---
My kiddo asked me to bring them lunch a lunch to school today because the caf was offering fish sticks. Fair request. As soon as morning drop-off is concluded, all exterior doors are locked. You can only be buzzed in at the main entrance which the office has direct line of sight and forces you into the office before entering the actual school via a second locked door. Of course, someone leaving as I was entering held the door for me. Today, of all days. I'm just like, really, the safety of our kids is more important than me being able to walk in to the office unannounced.
---
And... I don't know if it was in this thread or I'm picking it up from other areas. But, yeah. In Texas, tomorrow is the last day of school and for most, it's a half-day. All these kids... probably had summer plans already (even at that young age).
Fucking heartbreaking.
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 5:10 PM on May 25, 2022 [9 favorites]
(The body armor thing is a lie of course)
That is so, so awful and by that point when the cop is saying the murderer was wearing body armor, he was very well aware that was a lie.
---
I'm in the Houston area and one of the morning drive time radio shows changed format for the day to take all listener calls.
The very first fucking person I hear says, "So, you know, these guns were purchased illegally" and thank goodness, one of the hosts interrupted her immediately and said, "No, they were bought legally." It still didn't make her change the point that she was going to make which was even if you make owning certain guns a crime, "the criminals will still get them."
I was fucking furious. With that logic, why have any laws at all?
---
My kiddo asked me to bring them lunch a lunch to school today because the caf was offering fish sticks. Fair request. As soon as morning drop-off is concluded, all exterior doors are locked. You can only be buzzed in at the main entrance which the office has direct line of sight and forces you into the office before entering the actual school via a second locked door. Of course, someone leaving as I was entering held the door for me. Today, of all days. I'm just like, really, the safety of our kids is more important than me being able to walk in to the office unannounced.
---
And... I don't know if it was in this thread or I'm picking it up from other areas. But, yeah. In Texas, tomorrow is the last day of school and for most, it's a half-day. All these kids... probably had summer plans already (even at that young age).
Fucking heartbreaking.
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 5:10 PM on May 25, 2022 [9 favorites]
I think that after Sandy Hook, as a nation we decided that dead children was sort of okay. I mean, dead kids don't seem to be much of an issue for those who could make change. So I've been thinking, and I have an actual idea that I think will work:
we have animal shelters move into schools, and any would be murderer first has to walk past the puppies.
Nobody is going to shoot a puppy, and more likely, they will go over to the puppies to give them cuddles and the puppies will smother them with kisses and BAM someone can grab the gun.
Just an idea. Anyone have a better one?
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 5:15 PM on May 25, 2022 [4 favorites]
we have animal shelters move into schools, and any would be murderer first has to walk past the puppies.
Nobody is going to shoot a puppy, and more likely, they will go over to the puppies to give them cuddles and the puppies will smother them with kisses and BAM someone can grab the gun.
Just an idea. Anyone have a better one?
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 5:15 PM on May 25, 2022 [4 favorites]
Ruben Gallego is a representative from Arizona and a Marine Corps combat veteran. His Twitter's a gold mine, and his House.gov page hosts this Gallego Statement Marking One Year Since the January 6 Insurrection.
Re: the fucking gun glut and the mass murderers trampling inalienable rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Since sensible-to-us appeals go nowhere with Second-Amendment enthusiasts, maybe this needs to be positioned as legislation that benefits gun owners? Upthread, I posted links about "no federal laws requiring safe storage of guns, and no federal standards for firearm locks," and how often guns are stolen and used in school shootings and other massacres. Safe storage laws, then, because gun owners don't want their expensive property stolen (carrot); nor do they want to be considered legally liable or negligent because their too-accessible weaponry was used in an atrocity (stick)?
Let's not go into how often the young family members (children, grandchildren, nephews, nieces) of gun owners turn the unsecured weapons on themselves.
Let's also skip the bunch of gun-control executive orders signed in April 2021, or that, in Sept. 2021, Biden withdrew the nomination of David Chipman (a senior policy advisor with Giffords, the gun safety organization), his choice to lead the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, after blowback from "gun rights groups, Republican senators and a few Democrats." Before joining Giffords, Chipman had worked for the ATF for nearly 25 years. (Starting in 2006, the gun lobby's had great success sinking this key nomination, and the ATF hasn't had a permanent director since 2015.) As for the current nominee, former federal attorney Steve Dettelbach: Biden's ATF pick vows 'politics can play no role in law enforcement' during Senate hearing (CNN, May 25, 2022, as in, TODAY).
In the US, in 2021, there were more than 120 guns per 100 people. Buying's been on an upswing, and that's just the people buying legally. One in Five American Households Purchased a Gun During the Pandemic: According to the FBI, an average of 13 million guns were sold legally in the U.S. each year between 2010 and 2019, increasing to about 20 million annual gun sales in both 2020 and 2021.
posted by Iris Gambol at 5:15 PM on May 25, 2022 [11 favorites]
Re: the fucking gun glut and the mass murderers trampling inalienable rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Since sensible-to-us appeals go nowhere with Second-Amendment enthusiasts, maybe this needs to be positioned as legislation that benefits gun owners? Upthread, I posted links about "no federal laws requiring safe storage of guns, and no federal standards for firearm locks," and how often guns are stolen and used in school shootings and other massacres. Safe storage laws, then, because gun owners don't want their expensive property stolen (carrot); nor do they want to be considered legally liable or negligent because their too-accessible weaponry was used in an atrocity (stick)?
Let's not go into how often the young family members (children, grandchildren, nephews, nieces) of gun owners turn the unsecured weapons on themselves.
Let's also skip the bunch of gun-control executive orders signed in April 2021, or that, in Sept. 2021, Biden withdrew the nomination of David Chipman (a senior policy advisor with Giffords, the gun safety organization), his choice to lead the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, after blowback from "gun rights groups, Republican senators and a few Democrats." Before joining Giffords, Chipman had worked for the ATF for nearly 25 years. (Starting in 2006, the gun lobby's had great success sinking this key nomination, and the ATF hasn't had a permanent director since 2015.) As for the current nominee, former federal attorney Steve Dettelbach: Biden's ATF pick vows 'politics can play no role in law enforcement' during Senate hearing (CNN, May 25, 2022, as in, TODAY).
In the US, in 2021, there were more than 120 guns per 100 people. Buying's been on an upswing, and that's just the people buying legally. One in Five American Households Purchased a Gun During the Pandemic: According to the FBI, an average of 13 million guns were sold legally in the U.S. each year between 2010 and 2019, increasing to about 20 million annual gun sales in both 2020 and 2021.
posted by Iris Gambol at 5:15 PM on May 25, 2022 [11 favorites]
A North Texas high school student was arrested Wednesday after police received reports of an armed man walking toward the campus, authorities said. The student, who attends Berkner High School in the Richardson Independent School District, was arrested after an AK-47 style pistol and a replica AR-15 style Orbeez rifle were found in his car near Berkner High School, the Richardson Police Department said in a news release. He was charged with unlawful carrying of weapons in a weapon-free school zone, the statement said.
Police are not releasing the student’s name because he is a minor.
posted by Iris Gambol at 5:17 PM on May 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
Police are not releasing the student’s name because he is a minor.
posted by Iris Gambol at 5:17 PM on May 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
Shouldn't we be calling this what it is: domestic terrorism?
posted by suelac at 5:20 PM on May 25, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by suelac at 5:20 PM on May 25, 2022 [7 favorites]
we have animal shelters move into schools, and any would be murderer first has to walk past the puppies.
Nobody is going to shoot a puppy
Um.... I hope you're being a little tongue in cheek. If not, I knew someone who lit a cat on fire for fun. He never shot anyone. I 100% believe there are people sick enough (either mentally or figuratively speaking) that would smile as they shot the puppies on the way to shoot kids.
(on preview: yes, suelac)
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 5:24 PM on May 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
Nobody is going to shoot a puppy
Um.... I hope you're being a little tongue in cheek. If not, I knew someone who lit a cat on fire for fun. He never shot anyone. I 100% believe there are people sick enough (either mentally or figuratively speaking) that would smile as they shot the puppies on the way to shoot kids.
(on preview: yes, suelac)
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 5:24 PM on May 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
Shouldn't we be calling this what it is: domestic terrorism?
posted by suelac
YES, this. It is state sponsored domestic terrorism that is encouraged by the nation's gun laws. Guns sold to kill the maximum number of people possible in the shortest period of time. have at it Amerika.
posted by bluesky43 at 5:38 PM on May 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by suelac
YES, this. It is state sponsored domestic terrorism that is encouraged by the nation's gun laws. Guns sold to kill the maximum number of people possible in the shortest period of time. have at it Amerika.
posted by bluesky43 at 5:38 PM on May 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
Jesus, why don't they just bring in the tanks in Iowa.
posted by bluesky43 at 5:39 PM on May 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by bluesky43 at 5:39 PM on May 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
We need more like Beto O'Rourke. Link goes to an on-fire video.
posted by bluesky43 at 5:43 PM on May 25, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by bluesky43 at 5:43 PM on May 25, 2022 [5 favorites]
That video thatwhichfalls posted is utterly nightmarish. That cop telling us that first and foremost we need to think of the brave cops (who look like they weren't that brave at all), then casually acknowledging that cops saved their own kids first (or rather, saved their kids, since there are 18 dead kids who aren't theirs who didn't get saved at all) - it's as if the fever dreams of every bootlicking reactionary finally, and blandly, supplanted the last shreds of what used to be our reality.
posted by heteronym at 5:55 PM on May 25, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by heteronym at 5:55 PM on May 25, 2022 [8 favorites]
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
posted by mcbeth at 5:55 PM on May 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by mcbeth at 5:55 PM on May 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
MARCH FOR OUR LIVES
Saturday, June 11, 2022 12:00 PM - 2:00 PM ET
DC, 901 New York Ave NW, Washington, DC 20001
link goes to RSVP to marches planned around the country.
posted by bluesky43 at 6:03 PM on May 25, 2022 [5 favorites]
Saturday, June 11, 2022 12:00 PM - 2:00 PM ET
DC, 901 New York Ave NW, Washington, DC 20001
link goes to RSVP to marches planned around the country.
posted by bluesky43 at 6:03 PM on May 25, 2022 [5 favorites]
Resurrecting this idea: A National Monument for Mass Shooting Victims. It should sit right in the middle of the National Mall, be ugly as hell, and Congress and the President and SCOTUS should be invited to lay wreaths there in a solemn ceremony, annually (and whenever else it's necessary.)
posted by newdaddy at 6:05 PM on May 25, 2022 [11 favorites]
posted by newdaddy at 6:05 PM on May 25, 2022 [11 favorites]
Reading books is surely not the answer, but it can't hurt, at least in this case. Carol Anderson needs a Genius grant posthaste.
The Second.
Did I make a link? it's been a long time since I used html regularly.
Also,
.......................
posted by allthinky at 6:16 PM on May 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
The Second.
Did I make a link? it's been a long time since I used html regularly.
Also,
.......................
posted by allthinky at 6:16 PM on May 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
I know it is probably wrong of me to want Alex Jones to be physically hauled to the scene of every such tragedy, before the bodies are covered or the blood cleaned up, to see how willing he is to open his obscene mouth to lie about "crisis actors" while standing over the corpses, but maybe just once or twice?
posted by Nerd of the North at 6:43 PM on May 25, 2022 [20 favorites]
posted by Nerd of the North at 6:43 PM on May 25, 2022 [20 favorites]
Shouldn't we be calling this what it is: domestic terrorism?
posted by suelac
No. We should call it State-Sponsored Terrorism. Terrorism by officeholders that is actively orchestrated and directed at citizens of the USA.
They are cowards and traitors and should be dealt with as such.
I suspect they know this. Abbot. Cruz. All the rest. They know what cowards they are, how they have sold out their constituents just to gather more of the power around them that keeps them safe. No wonder they cravenly side with the crowd of murderstick fetishists. They know there’re large swaths of people out there who know, just as well as they themselves do, how immoral and guilty they are; and they feel to their bones that they deserve punishment. And they know how severe is the punishment they’ve earned. They have no choice but to jump to the side of The Gun and hope they can avoid that punishment.
posted by armoir from antproof case at 7:00 PM on May 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by suelac
No. We should call it State-Sponsored Terrorism. Terrorism by officeholders that is actively orchestrated and directed at citizens of the USA.
They are cowards and traitors and should be dealt with as such.
I suspect they know this. Abbot. Cruz. All the rest. They know what cowards they are, how they have sold out their constituents just to gather more of the power around them that keeps them safe. No wonder they cravenly side with the crowd of murderstick fetishists. They know there’re large swaths of people out there who know, just as well as they themselves do, how immoral and guilty they are; and they feel to their bones that they deserve punishment. And they know how severe is the punishment they’ve earned. They have no choice but to jump to the side of The Gun and hope they can avoid that punishment.
posted by armoir from antproof case at 7:00 PM on May 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
Chad Loder on Twitter:
One of the reasons it feels impossible to enact gun control in the U.S. is that the Civil War never really ended.posted by non canadian guy at 7:37 PM on May 25, 2022 [36 favorites]
We have millions of heavily-armed civilians who want to impose a white supremacist theocracy on the rest of the country, and the police are on their side.
It seems like the vast majority of civilian AR-15s are sold to people who fantasize, in some way, about a racial holy war that will give them an excuse to murder Black people, immigrants, and queer & trans folks.
A small number of AR-15s are sold to people who have realized this(.)
If you're going to talk about gun control in the U.S., you need to be honest that you're talking about asking people to disarm in the midst of pogroms and coup attempts carried out by radical theocratic fascists.
I'm not saying it's hopeless, but start with an honest assessment.
Apparently the cops had time to pull their own kids out (scroll to 1 min 20s).
Looking to find the links, but from what I understand the cops did spend the time clearing out every classroom except the one the shooter barricaded. So rather than cowardice, what happened was triage.
posted by ocschwar at 8:23 PM on May 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
Looking to find the links, but from what I understand the cops did spend the time clearing out every classroom except the one the shooter barricaded. So rather than cowardice, what happened was triage.
posted by ocschwar at 8:23 PM on May 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
The AP is reporting that the cops sat around outside for "40 minutes to an hour" waiting for backup while bystanders were shouting at them to "Go in there! Go in there!"
posted by peeedro at 8:38 PM on May 25, 2022 [17 favorites]
posted by peeedro at 8:38 PM on May 25, 2022 [17 favorites]
The AP is reporting that the cops sat around outside for "40 minutes to an hour" waiting for backup while bystanders were shouting at them to "Go in there! Go in there!"
Cops tried to save their own lives while children were dying. If you've radioed for backup, the backup is already on its way and it will do what it does when it gets there. Yes, take the moment to radio for it, and then go the fuck in there.
The literal only premise the carceral state rests its whole bullshit on is that it will protect people. If it doesn't, why the fuck should anyone ever give it the time of day?
posted by corb at 8:43 PM on May 25, 2022 [59 favorites]
Cops tried to save their own lives while children were dying. If you've radioed for backup, the backup is already on its way and it will do what it does when it gets there. Yes, take the moment to radio for it, and then go the fuck in there.
The literal only premise the carceral state rests its whole bullshit on is that it will protect people. If it doesn't, why the fuck should anyone ever give it the time of day?
posted by corb at 8:43 PM on May 25, 2022 [59 favorites]
Looking to find the links, but from what I understand the cops did spend the time clearing out every classroom except the one the shooter barricaded. So rather than cowardice, what happened was triage.
You cannot ask me to trust anything the cops say when it might reflect well on them. They lie too fluently to give them that benefit anymore.
posted by Etrigan at 8:56 PM on May 25, 2022 [44 favorites]
You cannot ask me to trust anything the cops say when it might reflect well on them. They lie too fluently to give them that benefit anymore.
posted by Etrigan at 8:56 PM on May 25, 2022 [44 favorites]
cops tried to save their own lives while children were dying. If you've radioed for backup, the backup is already on its way and it will do what it does when it gets there. Yes, take the moment to radio for it, and then go the fuck in there.
Why are US cops so bad at their job? Is it the training? Lack of planning? With the amount of shootings that occur in the states, every force should have well rehearsed plans for those.
These kinds of shooting unfortunately occur outside the US too, but from one recent example in Montreal (Dawson college), all kinds of cops showed up as fast as they could and got in to stop the shooter. Some where already there for an unrelated incident, some others just heard the call on radio and were nearby. It took 7 minutes to neutralize Gill.
I could understand the impulse to go for your kids and protect them over your duty, parental instincts are strong, but just waiting for backup, what the fuck.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 9:09 PM on May 25, 2022 [6 favorites]
Why are US cops so bad at their job? Is it the training? Lack of planning? With the amount of shootings that occur in the states, every force should have well rehearsed plans for those.
These kinds of shooting unfortunately occur outside the US too, but from one recent example in Montreal (Dawson college), all kinds of cops showed up as fast as they could and got in to stop the shooter. Some where already there for an unrelated incident, some others just heard the call on radio and were nearby. It took 7 minutes to neutralize Gill.
I could understand the impulse to go for your kids and protect them over your duty, parental instincts are strong, but just waiting for backup, what the fuck.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 9:09 PM on May 25, 2022 [6 favorites]
The AP is reporting that the cops sat around outside for "40 minutes to an hour" waiting for backup while bystanders were shouting at them to "Go in there! Go in there!"
I mean, shit. Maybe somebody should have told them there was, like, a 9-year-old black kid with a water pistol wandering around inside or something.
posted by non canadian guy at 9:14 PM on May 25, 2022 [36 favorites]
I mean, shit. Maybe somebody should have told them there was, like, a 9-year-old black kid with a water pistol wandering around inside or something.
posted by non canadian guy at 9:14 PM on May 25, 2022 [36 favorites]
Looking to find the links, but from what I understand the cops did spend the time clearing out every classroom except the one the shooter barricaded. So rather than cowardice, what happened was triage.
Are you looking for this link?
The cop straight out lied in the interview by saying the murderer was wearing body armor. It also seemed clear that when he was talking about evacuating students he was particularly speaking about cops getting their own kids out of an "active shooter" or whatever they call it.... I can only presume because, "kids of cops need to be clear, so cops can focus on the job at hand."
And, boy howdy, that is not the traditional use of the word triage, by any means.
If the cops can't stop the murderer before he enters the school AFTER killing someone AND crashing his vehicle and then waits 40 minutes to even enter because.... they were shot at?
I'm at a loss for words.
I grieve for the families who are at a fundamentally larger loss.
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posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 9:18 PM on May 25, 2022 [13 favorites]
Are you looking for this link?
The cop straight out lied in the interview by saying the murderer was wearing body armor. It also seemed clear that when he was talking about evacuating students he was particularly speaking about cops getting their own kids out of an "active shooter" or whatever they call it.... I can only presume because, "kids of cops need to be clear, so cops can focus on the job at hand."
And, boy howdy, that is not the traditional use of the word triage, by any means.
If the cops can't stop the murderer before he enters the school AFTER killing someone AND crashing his vehicle and then waits 40 minutes to even enter because.... they were shot at?
I'm at a loss for words.
I grieve for the families who are at a fundamentally larger loss.
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posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 9:18 PM on May 25, 2022 [13 favorites]
NRA convention in Houston starting Friday. I can’t imagine what kind of additional horror that will inflict on the parents as the news fill with the NRA’s bullshit.
posted by interogative mood at 9:48 PM on May 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 9:48 PM on May 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
Police blocking parents from getting their own kids. (Twitter)
Pinning one on the ground, threatening others with Tasers.
posted by rhizome at 9:51 PM on May 25, 2022 [16 favorites]
Pinning one on the ground, threatening others with Tasers.
posted by rhizome at 9:51 PM on May 25, 2022 [16 favorites]
All cops are bastards
posted by harriet vane at 10:09 PM on May 25, 2022 [32 favorites]
posted by harriet vane at 10:09 PM on May 25, 2022 [32 favorites]
I keep seeing references in articles like that that the responding police were Border Patrol agents. If this is correct, it's further evidence that Border Patrol is incompetent as an institution, incapable of even the most clear-cut duty to public safety in responding to a single active shooter, and thus has sacrificed its legitimacy as a law enforcement organization and should be dissolved. If these stories are true, and we should wait for the dust to settle before thinking we understand what really happened, it means these fuckers can bully and terrorize desperate unarmed people trying to make a life for themselves, but when confronted with a single school shooter, are only brave enough to get their own children out of harm's way and then violently prevent other unarmed parents from at least attempting to do the same. If the facts are indeed as they appear to be at this time, BP needs to be disbanded. (It should be anyway but this would be an outrage that I think everyone could understand.)
posted by biogeo at 10:13 PM on May 25, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by biogeo at 10:13 PM on May 25, 2022 [5 favorites]
The cop straight out lied in the interview by saying the murderer was wearing body armor.
That appears to be a simple mistake. Lt. Christopher Olivarez, a spokesman for the agency, later said the gunman wore a vest used to store extra magazines — often used by tactical police units — but without the armor plates that law enforcement officers typically wear.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 10:36 PM on May 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
That appears to be a simple mistake. Lt. Christopher Olivarez, a spokesman for the agency, later said the gunman wore a vest used to store extra magazines — often used by tactical police units — but without the armor plates that law enforcement officers typically wear.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 10:36 PM on May 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
I would like to remind you that police are given the benefit of shooting to kill when feeling scared, have qualified immunity when they mistreat citizens, and have no special duty to act.
Quite a racket, if you think about it.
posted by Big Al 8000 at 10:41 PM on May 25, 2022 [42 favorites]
Quite a racket, if you think about it.
posted by Big Al 8000 at 10:41 PM on May 25, 2022 [42 favorites]
That appears to be a simple mistake
this appears to be insulting nonsense
the only thing that is apparent at this time is that many conflicting lies were told and are still being told by all involved authorities, and that a foul mixture of incompetence, raging cowardice, intense stupidity, disinterest in saving lives other than their own, and brutal abuse of power produced results similar to those you would expect to see if the cops had deliberately set out to aid the murderer.
posted by queenofbithynia at 11:06 PM on May 25, 2022 [33 favorites]
this appears to be insulting nonsense
the only thing that is apparent at this time is that many conflicting lies were told and are still being told by all involved authorities, and that a foul mixture of incompetence, raging cowardice, intense stupidity, disinterest in saving lives other than their own, and brutal abuse of power produced results similar to those you would expect to see if the cops had deliberately set out to aid the murderer.
posted by queenofbithynia at 11:06 PM on May 25, 2022 [33 favorites]
Excellent article from a former firearms industry exec:
“Shootings aren’t a sign America is ‘broken’. It’s working exactly as intended“
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/may/25/shootings-arent-a-sign-america-is-broken-its-working-exactly-as-intended?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
posted by armoir from antproof case at 11:29 PM on May 25, 2022 [6 favorites]
“Shootings aren’t a sign America is ‘broken’. It’s working exactly as intended“
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/may/25/shootings-arent-a-sign-america-is-broken-its-working-exactly-as-intended?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
posted by armoir from antproof case at 11:29 PM on May 25, 2022 [6 favorites]
“Shootings aren’t a sign America is ‘broken’. It’s working exactly as intended“
posted by y2karl at 11:56 PM on May 25, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by y2karl at 11:56 PM on May 25, 2022 [6 favorites]
Hey, I've just realised that something's different this time. I don't know this guy's name. Right now I honestly couldn't tell you. The media I've been watching has kept his name out of it.
Remember when Jacinda Ardern, PM of New Zealand, said she would never say that guy's name? I can't remember their name either.
I know this feels like groundhog day all over again, but something has changed. The media isn't inadvertently making this asshole a superstar. Well, not completely, it's still sensational coverage. But as far as people do this for the notoriety, perhaps that's diminished a little by this tiny change.
It's you as well, all of you here that have contributed. The name hasn't been mentioned once, unless the mods caught it.
Well done. Let's make this the new norm. Damnatio Memoriae.
posted by adept256 at 1:04 AM on May 26, 2022 [12 favorites]
Remember when Jacinda Ardern, PM of New Zealand, said she would never say that guy's name? I can't remember their name either.
I know this feels like groundhog day all over again, but something has changed. The media isn't inadvertently making this asshole a superstar. Well, not completely, it's still sensational coverage. But as far as people do this for the notoriety, perhaps that's diminished a little by this tiny change.
It's you as well, all of you here that have contributed. The name hasn't been mentioned once, unless the mods caught it.
Well done. Let's make this the new norm. Damnatio Memoriae.
posted by adept256 at 1:04 AM on May 26, 2022 [12 favorites]
More from Chad Loder on Twitter: This is the Uvalde police SWAT team. This community of 13,000 people spends 40% of its municipal budget on the police. ... Uvalde spent roughly $4.1M of their $10.3M operating budget on police. This community doesn't have much money for other things once they're done paying the cops. ... If you want cops to respond quickly to a school shooter, tell them there's an unarmed 78-year-old grandmother with dementia inside the school having a mental health crisis.
posted by Bella Donna at 1:34 AM on May 26, 2022 [29 favorites]
posted by Bella Donna at 1:34 AM on May 26, 2022 [29 favorites]
And his answer was yes - it is sad that kids get killed but that was a price of liberty, and it was part of the constitution, so it was important.
US culture has a major element of demanding that people - sometimes the majority, even - diminish themselves personally out of a call to the "greater good" to protect a nebulous idea of "freedom".
It's why a black family's right to live in peace is subordinated to a bigot playing monkey calls at their house.
Or that free speech "advocates" argue that LGBT college students are obliged to pay for their own discrimination and harassment.
Or that law students vocally protesting a theocratic fascist who wants to make homosexuality illegal are a threat to "free speech" and need to be punished.
Or that a college professor claims that white college students need space to be bigots.
Among many, many, many, many other such incidents.
And our view on guns follows this very pattern as well - we need guns to prevent "tyranny", even though events like the Tulsa Massacre and the Warsaw Uprising show the limits of private firearm ownership on stopping state-sanctioned oppression and violence. And thus the "tree of liberty" (which, it should be reminded, was a turn of phrase coined by a brutal slaver rapist) is watered with the blood of children because lip service to a bullshit ideal is more important than the safety of children.
I am pretty much done with this. And more and more, I'm seeing that I'm not the only one. Recently, I had read a piece by Lara Bazelton in which she was arguing that the ACLU had lost its way, but really showcased that she couldn't comprehend that people were rejecting this idea of diminishment in the name of nebulous ideals. And this is one of big obstacles that I see in pushing for gun control - that we need to break through this culture of expecting people to put nebulous ideals ahead of their own safety. And part of why I have hope is that we're seeing that breakthrough happen.
posted by NoxAeternum at 1:43 AM on May 26, 2022 [20 favorites]
US culture has a major element of demanding that people - sometimes the majority, even - diminish themselves personally out of a call to the "greater good" to protect a nebulous idea of "freedom".
It's why a black family's right to live in peace is subordinated to a bigot playing monkey calls at their house.
Or that free speech "advocates" argue that LGBT college students are obliged to pay for their own discrimination and harassment.
Or that law students vocally protesting a theocratic fascist who wants to make homosexuality illegal are a threat to "free speech" and need to be punished.
Or that a college professor claims that white college students need space to be bigots.
Among many, many, many, many other such incidents.
And our view on guns follows this very pattern as well - we need guns to prevent "tyranny", even though events like the Tulsa Massacre and the Warsaw Uprising show the limits of private firearm ownership on stopping state-sanctioned oppression and violence. And thus the "tree of liberty" (which, it should be reminded, was a turn of phrase coined by a brutal slaver rapist) is watered with the blood of children because lip service to a bullshit ideal is more important than the safety of children.
I am pretty much done with this. And more and more, I'm seeing that I'm not the only one. Recently, I had read a piece by Lara Bazelton in which she was arguing that the ACLU had lost its way, but really showcased that she couldn't comprehend that people were rejecting this idea of diminishment in the name of nebulous ideals. And this is one of big obstacles that I see in pushing for gun control - that we need to break through this culture of expecting people to put nebulous ideals ahead of their own safety. And part of why I have hope is that we're seeing that breakthrough happen.
posted by NoxAeternum at 1:43 AM on May 26, 2022 [20 favorites]
Belief in an ideology is powerful because it's so simple.
Freedom == good
Trying to match your ideals to real life is messy and confusing.
Once you start questioning what freedom actually means in a particular situation, who is paying for it, and who is benefitting, suddenly it's not so clear what you should be believing anymore.
It's easier to think of yourself as the stoic, true-hearted, loyal lover of freedom in the abstract, than to face the ugly, contradictory, confusing facts.
And also, if you did face that reality, you'd have to do something about it, or face the fact of who you are.Trying to do something means the possibility of failure.
Much more comfortable to just believe in Freedom and not have to question who you are.
posted by Zumbador at 2:04 AM on May 26, 2022 [9 favorites]
Freedom == good
Trying to match your ideals to real life is messy and confusing.
Once you start questioning what freedom actually means in a particular situation, who is paying for it, and who is benefitting, suddenly it's not so clear what you should be believing anymore.
It's easier to think of yourself as the stoic, true-hearted, loyal lover of freedom in the abstract, than to face the ugly, contradictory, confusing facts.
And also, if you did face that reality, you'd have to do something about it, or face the fact of who you are.Trying to do something means the possibility of failure.
Much more comfortable to just believe in Freedom and not have to question who you are.
posted by Zumbador at 2:04 AM on May 26, 2022 [9 favorites]
Re my suggestion that murderers be forced to walk past puppies:Um.... I hope you're being a little tongue in cheek.
I’m not sure I am. I think the government hasn’t given two shits about dead kids and maybe the threat of dead puppies would make them move.
All I know is that it is as clear as f*cking day the government is not going to do anything. Sandy Hook, Columbine, Parkland, THEY DON’T CARE ABOUT DEAD CHILDREN. It’s time we stopped asking them to help.
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 3:14 AM on May 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
I’m not sure I am. I think the government hasn’t given two shits about dead kids and maybe the threat of dead puppies would make them move.
All I know is that it is as clear as f*cking day the government is not going to do anything. Sandy Hook, Columbine, Parkland, THEY DON’T CARE ABOUT DEAD CHILDREN. It’s time we stopped asking them to help.
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 3:14 AM on May 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
Oof.
How will this ever change without constant protests in front of every gun store that sells these weapons? At the office and home of every politician that votes against gun control (yes, Sinema and Manchin, that includes those who won’t overturn the filibuster). Until there are churches and synagogues and mosques planning weekly protests, and until there is a liberal version of the Federalist Society systematically promoting only judges who understand a “well-regulated militia” does not and cannot include any random kid having an AR-15.
posted by nat at 4:12 AM on May 26, 2022 [4 favorites]
How will this ever change without constant protests in front of every gun store that sells these weapons? At the office and home of every politician that votes against gun control (yes, Sinema and Manchin, that includes those who won’t overturn the filibuster). Until there are churches and synagogues and mosques planning weekly protests, and until there is a liberal version of the Federalist Society systematically promoting only judges who understand a “well-regulated militia” does not and cannot include any random kid having an AR-15.
posted by nat at 4:12 AM on May 26, 2022 [4 favorites]
and have no special duty to act.
See Also: GRIESHABER v. CITY OF ALBANY
See Also: GRIESHABER v. CITY OF ALBANY
This action arises out of the tragic death of Jenna Grieshaber Honis (hereinafter decedent), who was murdered in her basement apartment in the City of Albany on the evening of November 6, 1997. The theory of the complaint is that defendant was negligent in its response to an emergency 911 telephone call that decedent made at 6:47 P.M. on that day. Although police officers arrived at decedent's apartment building at 6:52 P.M., they awaited the arrival of an animal control officer to subdue decedent's dog. As a result, they did not actually enter decedent's apartment until approximately 7:45 P.M. ...posted by mikelieman at 4:54 AM on May 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
Culture war means war, and people don't always care who gets hurt in war.War is when both sides are fighting.
posted by fullerine at 5:41 AM on May 26, 2022 [7 favorites]
"Meanwhile, a law enforcement official familiar with the investigation said the Border Patrol agents had trouble breaching the classroom door and had to get a staff member to open the room with a key."
Every new detail is more nauseating and pathetic than the last.
posted by heteronym at 5:46 AM on May 26, 2022 [12 favorites]
Every new detail is more nauseating and pathetic than the last.
posted by heteronym at 5:46 AM on May 26, 2022 [12 favorites]
Much more comfortable to just believe in Freedom and not have to question who you are.
This is the entire crux of conservatism in 2022: beliefs that feel good but must remain unquestioned to survive. Guns make us free. But don't guns risk our kids' lives? Mental illness is what risks kids' lives; guns are incidental. What will you do about mental health care? Nothing. Then what are we supposed to do about these dangerous people? We will imprison them. Don't our prisons have some of the highest recidivism rates in the world? Well, they keep the dangerous criminals our cops catch locked up. So cops clear most violent crimes? No. They clear a well below average amount of violent crimes in the United States; that's why they need more funding. Doesn't the United States spend more on policing than any country on earth? Why do you hate America?
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:05 AM on May 26, 2022 [34 favorites]
This is the entire crux of conservatism in 2022: beliefs that feel good but must remain unquestioned to survive. Guns make us free. But don't guns risk our kids' lives? Mental illness is what risks kids' lives; guns are incidental. What will you do about mental health care? Nothing. Then what are we supposed to do about these dangerous people? We will imprison them. Don't our prisons have some of the highest recidivism rates in the world? Well, they keep the dangerous criminals our cops catch locked up. So cops clear most violent crimes? No. They clear a well below average amount of violent crimes in the United States; that's why they need more funding. Doesn't the United States spend more on policing than any country on earth? Why do you hate America?
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:05 AM on May 26, 2022 [34 favorites]
Shouldn't we be calling this what it is: domestic terrorism?
Back when the word had a meaning, "terrorism" required a political intent.
Americans murdering people because it's just so bloody easy is not terrorism. It's just arseholes being arseholes.
posted by pompomtom at 6:09 AM on May 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
Back when the word had a meaning, "terrorism" required a political intent.
Americans murdering people because it's just so bloody easy is not terrorism. It's just arseholes being arseholes.
posted by pompomtom at 6:09 AM on May 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
Stochastic terrorism.
Those that set up the dominos to watch them fall are also guilty. They’ll be at the George R. Brown convention center Friday to Sunday.
posted by Artw at 6:20 AM on May 26, 2022 [14 favorites]
Those that set up the dominos to watch them fall are also guilty. They’ll be at the George R. Brown convention center Friday to Sunday.
posted by Artw at 6:20 AM on May 26, 2022 [14 favorites]
"Meanwhile, a law enforcement official familiar with the investigation said the Border Patrol agents had trouble breaching the classroom door and had to get a staff member to open the room with a key."
Every new detail is more nauseating and pathetic than the last.
This is of course a security measure meant to guard against mass shootings (one that WORKED for every classroom but that one).
But...
Mass shootings are not like tornadoes, fires, or air raids. As a child I had to drill for all three.
Mass shootings are done by people who know what the drill is (because half the time they went to that very school) and can adjust their tactics to the drill.
posted by ocschwar at 6:23 AM on May 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
That's not what's so awful, ocschwar. It's that the cops, who we're told over and over are competent heroes worthy of our respect, were so unprepared they couldn't breach a goddamned interior door without involving a civilian. "Sorry, kids, we gotta find a key."
Meanwhile, parents had been outside the whole time, screaming for the cops to do something.
posted by heteronym at 6:33 AM on May 26, 2022 [19 favorites]
Meanwhile, parents had been outside the whole time, screaming for the cops to do something.
posted by heteronym at 6:33 AM on May 26, 2022 [19 favorites]
Why are US cops so bad at their job?
The priority of cops in the US, even in states with putatively "good" cops, is upholding the status quo, protecting the wealthy, and keeping poor people from inconveniencing the wealthy.
OK, that's unfair. That's not their top priorities.
Their top priorities are protecting themselves and their "brothers" and getting paid for as little effort as possible.
These are people who will simultaneously claim that they have to be respected because they have the hardest job in the world and put their lives on the line every day, and then also say that because they felt a moment's concern for their own safety they had to unload a magazine from their pistol into an unarmed person having a mental health crisis. They literally train themselves to default to killing civilians and prioritizing their own safety over anyone else.
Cops, as a class, are cowards and bullies who hide under the guise of "the thin blue line" to deflect all criticism as coming from someone who just doesn't appreciate all their hard work collecting a paycheck and running away from danger at all possible times.
posted by a faithful sock at 6:38 AM on May 26, 2022 [52 favorites]
The priority of cops in the US, even in states with putatively "good" cops, is upholding the status quo, protecting the wealthy, and keeping poor people from inconveniencing the wealthy.
OK, that's unfair. That's not their top priorities.
Their top priorities are protecting themselves and their "brothers" and getting paid for as little effort as possible.
These are people who will simultaneously claim that they have to be respected because they have the hardest job in the world and put their lives on the line every day, and then also say that because they felt a moment's concern for their own safety they had to unload a magazine from their pistol into an unarmed person having a mental health crisis. They literally train themselves to default to killing civilians and prioritizing their own safety over anyone else.
Cops, as a class, are cowards and bullies who hide under the guise of "the thin blue line" to deflect all criticism as coming from someone who just doesn't appreciate all their hard work collecting a paycheck and running away from danger at all possible times.
posted by a faithful sock at 6:38 AM on May 26, 2022 [52 favorites]
Sometime yesterday, a small business owner in Austin went to the State Capital building and did this. (Reddit video link, and yeah, you wanna watch it....)
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:53 AM on May 26, 2022 [12 favorites]
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:53 AM on May 26, 2022 [12 favorites]
Police blocking parents from getting their own kids. (Twitter)
Pinning one on the ground, threatening others with Tasers.
I am wondering if we need an update to the Mister Rogers quote about “look for the helpers.” Maybe we should look for the people who, out of fear and cowardice, are aiding the killers.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 7:41 AM on May 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
The gun fetishists have decided on their "solution" to school shootings: turn schools into fortresses. Barbed wire, armed guards, doors all locked. Because that's easier than gun control. So get ready to hear that from every corner of the Republican world. Turn schools into fortresses. Not gun control. Anything but that.
posted by cooker girl at 7:49 AM on May 26, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by cooker girl at 7:49 AM on May 26, 2022 [7 favorites]
The email I sent to my six-year-old daughter's teacher and principal today:
So that's where we are. I have no idea why I'm even trying to work today, but I am, in my WFH way, as the six-year-old watches Big City Greens and eats Cheddar Jack Cheez-Its on the couch next to me.
posted by Etrigan at 7:58 AM on May 26, 2022 [44 favorites]
[Six-year-old daughter] will be out of school for the foreseeable future. I don’t know how I’m supposed to just let her go when I am absolutely terrified every second. When I know that [her teacher] will likely do more to protect her than the people with guns and armor and souped-up cars and cool sunglasses.I spent the next hour or so forwarding that email, with tailored introductions, to my mayor, superintendent, state speaker of the House, state Senate majority leader, U.S. representative, and U.S. senators. Then I got a call from the principal, and they are doing their very best, but all they could offer me was to let me sit in the vestibule of the school during the day. She knows I'm a veteran; maybe she thought this would make me feel more in control. But all I could think (and I didn't bother telling her this) was Sure, so a former Army middle manager gets to die first, because I'm not going to sit there with a fucking gun to confront someone with an AR-15 and 300 rounds of ammunition.
I don’t know what will get me to change my mind. I don’t know what’s different today from yesterday. I DON’T KNOW. And I know it’s not your fault and this won’t accomplish anything in the grand scheme of things but I just. Can’t. Do it. Not today. Not yet.
They kept the parents from going into the school while they got their own kids out. How do we just live like this?
So that's where we are. I have no idea why I'm even trying to work today, but I am, in my WFH way, as the six-year-old watches Big City Greens and eats Cheddar Jack Cheez-Its on the couch next to me.
posted by Etrigan at 7:58 AM on May 26, 2022 [44 favorites]
I posted on FB that "I promise you need your guns less than these parents needed their kids."
My gun nut friend (the last one I have hung onto) replied, "What kind of sick argument is that? Jesus [DOT] you're a mess."
And it bums me out that this person doesn't even see the point and is several levels of demented dogma about how the world works and there's really no bridge to build that would connect us so that we could speak about this issue.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:08 AM on May 26, 2022 [35 favorites]
My gun nut friend (the last one I have hung onto) replied, "What kind of sick argument is that? Jesus [DOT] you're a mess."
And it bums me out that this person doesn't even see the point and is several levels of demented dogma about how the world works and there's really no bridge to build that would connect us so that we could speak about this issue.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:08 AM on May 26, 2022 [35 favorites]
But as far as people do this for the notoriety
...which there is no particular reason to believe, this does absolutely nothing to stop them.
and this fussy charade contributes MASSIVELY to the seemingly unstoppable tide of normalization. you take away the active agent, delete his name and suppress all discussion of what he did and why, and what you are left with is something like hurricane season. you elevate gun violence to a sacred mystery, an act of god, a natural disaster that just happens sometimes, who knows why, who knows when. you also abandon public discussion (which does go on!) exclusively to liars and bigots who will make up harmful stories about the killer's life and motivations, secure in the knowledge that those who would object are too virtuous to learn enough to rebut them. this isn't good!!
people have been congratulating each other for not mentioning dead killers' names & thereby preventing people from talking clearly in public about what happened for at least twenty years (i.e. as long as I have been paying attention to this kind of news.)
what a wonderful job it's done. what a great help it's been. surely nobody else will ever want to kill people, now.
posted by queenofbithynia at 8:16 AM on May 26, 2022 [21 favorites]
...which there is no particular reason to believe, this does absolutely nothing to stop them.
and this fussy charade contributes MASSIVELY to the seemingly unstoppable tide of normalization. you take away the active agent, delete his name and suppress all discussion of what he did and why, and what you are left with is something like hurricane season. you elevate gun violence to a sacred mystery, an act of god, a natural disaster that just happens sometimes, who knows why, who knows when. you also abandon public discussion (which does go on!) exclusively to liars and bigots who will make up harmful stories about the killer's life and motivations, secure in the knowledge that those who would object are too virtuous to learn enough to rebut them. this isn't good!!
people have been congratulating each other for not mentioning dead killers' names & thereby preventing people from talking clearly in public about what happened for at least twenty years (i.e. as long as I have been paying attention to this kind of news.)
what a wonderful job it's done. what a great help it's been. surely nobody else will ever want to kill people, now.
posted by queenofbithynia at 8:16 AM on May 26, 2022 [21 favorites]
there have been exchanges on the concept of terrorism and I can see some are reluctant to apply that term
looking at Etrigan's comment.. parents are keeping their kid from attending schools for fear that the kid might never return home.. that is a potent undermining of public education.. Beyond underfunding and all the other bullshit, that just erases one of the basic components to a civil society.
if your worldview is to amass the most wealth, and create gated access to pay-to-play education and health, etc.. well, this constant attack on schools is finally literal and devastating in its effectiveness. The past 30 years reveal the effects of terrorism.. give it a different term if that makes you feel better, but I don't see the point
posted by elkevelvet at 8:22 AM on May 26, 2022 [12 favorites]
looking at Etrigan's comment.. parents are keeping their kid from attending schools for fear that the kid might never return home.. that is a potent undermining of public education.. Beyond underfunding and all the other bullshit, that just erases one of the basic components to a civil society.
if your worldview is to amass the most wealth, and create gated access to pay-to-play education and health, etc.. well, this constant attack on schools is finally literal and devastating in its effectiveness. The past 30 years reveal the effects of terrorism.. give it a different term if that makes you feel better, but I don't see the point
posted by elkevelvet at 8:22 AM on May 26, 2022 [12 favorites]
Cheddar Jack Cheez-Its
If nothing else helps at all, please know that being, amid all of this, to sit on a sofa and munch on cheddar Jack cheez-its sounds like a very clear sign that one is loved and deeply cared for. That’s some goddamn fantastic parenting in my book.
posted by Ghidorah at 8:39 AM on May 26, 2022 [28 favorites]
If nothing else helps at all, please know that being, amid all of this, to sit on a sofa and munch on cheddar Jack cheez-its sounds like a very clear sign that one is loved and deeply cared for. That’s some goddamn fantastic parenting in my book.
posted by Ghidorah at 8:39 AM on May 26, 2022 [28 favorites]
p.s. re: speech vs. silence, I want to know the names of every negligent cop involved in the massacre and if it comes out that oops some of their bullets did some of the killing, I especially want to know that. cops want fear and notoriety, too! cops want to be big boys with big guns and big power, not unlike they-who-must-not-be-named in some ways. we could, I guess, keep quiet to make sure none of them get what they might want, but I think we should scream and yell at & about them until we get all the information we can, and then make them live in shame and isolation for the rest of their miserable lives since the law is unlikely to touch them. I don't think their names should be shhh it's a secret just in case it makes them feel good to hear them spoken. I don't think that helps anyone but them. we could I guess refuse to speak ted cruz & greg abbott's names too and hope that silence will drain their power, but I think that would be foolish & useless.
it's not important to give or not give them what we think they want. it's important to get what we want.
posted by queenofbithynia at 8:51 AM on May 26, 2022 [15 favorites]
it's not important to give or not give them what we think they want. it's important to get what we want.
posted by queenofbithynia at 8:51 AM on May 26, 2022 [15 favorites]
Name and shame the cops, yes, this is a good idea. They should not be allowed to get away with this cowardly negligence, especially not after all the fucking bullshit bravado and sucking up 40% of the town's budget. You want to play at being a hero? Then you can bloody well live with the world knowing your name and what you didn't do.
posted by harriet vane at 9:01 AM on May 26, 2022 [16 favorites]
posted by harriet vane at 9:01 AM on May 26, 2022 [16 favorites]
But as far as people do this for the notoriety
...which there is no particular reason to believe, this does absolutely nothing to stop them.
My understanding is that these child killers have achieved a form of notoriety online, in the worst spaces of the internet. So they feel like they have a "peer group" who will remember and repeat their name and what they did and their manifestos. For "lone wolves" they're actually commonly linked up with this loose group of murder enthusiasts.
I don't know if this particular guy was, but it's a thing, and no amount of burying these guys' names by the general public will be able to prevent that sort of in-group notoriety.
posted by BungaDunga at 9:02 AM on May 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
...which there is no particular reason to believe, this does absolutely nothing to stop them.
My understanding is that these child killers have achieved a form of notoriety online, in the worst spaces of the internet. So they feel like they have a "peer group" who will remember and repeat their name and what they did and their manifestos. For "lone wolves" they're actually commonly linked up with this loose group of murder enthusiasts.
I don't know if this particular guy was, but it's a thing, and no amount of burying these guys' names by the general public will be able to prevent that sort of in-group notoriety.
posted by BungaDunga at 9:02 AM on May 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
the much-repeated observation re: conservatism (laws that protect but don't bind the in-group, and bind but don't protect the out-group) can certainly be applied
there is a way terror consumes all energy and thought, and also a way the endless rules create endless distractions from meaningful action, let alone a meaningful life
posted by elkevelvet at 9:09 AM on May 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
there is a way terror consumes all energy and thought, and also a way the endless rules create endless distractions from meaningful action, let alone a meaningful life
posted by elkevelvet at 9:09 AM on May 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
give it a different term if that makes you feel better, but I don't see the point
Once people agree that terrorism is actually terrorism, we'd have to begin to deal with it on those terms.
It would mean having to finally face the reason why children are being massacred: gun ownership.
It would mean having to face gun owners and the problems caused by their guns.
Amazingly, we are still debating words, even when gun owners' guns are used to obliterate children's bodies to the point that DNA tests are needed to identify them.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 9:23 AM on May 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
Once people agree that terrorism is actually terrorism, we'd have to begin to deal with it on those terms.
It would mean having to finally face the reason why children are being massacred: gun ownership.
It would mean having to face gun owners and the problems caused by their guns.
Amazingly, we are still debating words, even when gun owners' guns are used to obliterate children's bodies to the point that DNA tests are needed to identify them.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 9:23 AM on May 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
That appears to be a simple mistake. Lt. Christopher Olivarez, a spokesman for the agency, later said the gunman wore a vest used to store extra magazines — often used by tactical police units — but without the armor plates that law enforcement officers typically wear.
This is actually more pernicious than a "simple mistake". It likely means that the cops saw that vest, assumed the guy had body armor, and made the decision that they didn't feel like entering a gunfight where they didn't have complete tactical dominance and total assurance of safety. They literally outnumbered him! They had significantly more training! But they couldn't guarantee they wouldn't take any injuries, so they just decided "it's not my problem" and are now leaning on the idea that this guy having a vest made him unstoppable so they couldn't have done anything and their inaction was just A-OK.
There's a lot of "oh the gunman barricaded himself in a classroom" but how did he get there in the first place? Cowardly decisions by cops that in every aspect of their other life will likely talk some bullshit about the "thin blue line that divides the protectors from the protected" or some other gross lies.
posted by corb at 10:05 AM on May 26, 2022 [56 favorites]
This is actually more pernicious than a "simple mistake". It likely means that the cops saw that vest, assumed the guy had body armor, and made the decision that they didn't feel like entering a gunfight where they didn't have complete tactical dominance and total assurance of safety. They literally outnumbered him! They had significantly more training! But they couldn't guarantee they wouldn't take any injuries, so they just decided "it's not my problem" and are now leaning on the idea that this guy having a vest made him unstoppable so they couldn't have done anything and their inaction was just A-OK.
There's a lot of "oh the gunman barricaded himself in a classroom" but how did he get there in the first place? Cowardly decisions by cops that in every aspect of their other life will likely talk some bullshit about the "thin blue line that divides the protectors from the protected" or some other gross lies.
posted by corb at 10:05 AM on May 26, 2022 [56 favorites]
If fire departments took up 40% of our municipal budgets, spent their extra time driving around in circles kicking the shit out of people they pronounced were fire hazards, regularly burned people to death, and occasionally refused to fight particular fires because they seemed too dangerous, I wonder how that would go over.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:07 AM on May 26, 2022 [44 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:07 AM on May 26, 2022 [44 favorites]
I don't want to defend the cops here, but recognize that Uvalde is not a rich or large city with a median household income of $25K and 15K people, 78% of them Hispanic or Latino.
Also, blaming the cops is a diversion from the real issue, which is the increasingly unrestricted access to powerful firearms along with reduced access to mental health care. Blaming the cops is going to put even more money and military weapons into their budget, which is the exact opposite of what I'd like to happen.
posted by meowzilla at 10:17 AM on May 26, 2022 [4 favorites]
Also, blaming the cops is a diversion from the real issue, which is the increasingly unrestricted access to powerful firearms along with reduced access to mental health care. Blaming the cops is going to put even more money and military weapons into their budget, which is the exact opposite of what I'd like to happen.
posted by meowzilla at 10:17 AM on May 26, 2022 [4 favorites]
Although I agree with you meowzilla, I also think that it's fair to point out that the police did nothing to stop this and could have ended this without any lives lost (i.e. by shooting the gunman in the leg to disable him), and instead looked at his vest, thought to themselves "this is scary - he has a gun, like we do!" and then had to ask a civilian to unlock the door. Had the gunman been Latino, black, or wearing anything around his head they'd have shot him on sight without a second thought.
The police have a responsibility too - they're there to protect the citizenry (in theory). It's clear from this example that they aren't going to protect the non-white kids from white kids with guns, which says a lot about both our gun laws and our policing.
posted by thebotanyofsouls at 10:22 AM on May 26, 2022 [5 favorites]
The police have a responsibility too - they're there to protect the citizenry (in theory). It's clear from this example that they aren't going to protect the non-white kids from white kids with guns, which says a lot about both our gun laws and our policing.
posted by thebotanyofsouls at 10:22 AM on May 26, 2022 [5 favorites]
good points, meowzilla
at the very least, however, this atrocity will invite scrutiny of this particular group of law enforcement personnel.. and in the greater context of counties and jurisdictions across the US, and with the knowledge we have of training and the visible militarization of community law enforcement, and the weekly social media posts revealing the bullying and unprofessionalism of so many individuals in law enforcement.. I mean, the list goes on and the anger that will be focused in this case is so predictable.
posted by elkevelvet at 10:23 AM on May 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
at the very least, however, this atrocity will invite scrutiny of this particular group of law enforcement personnel.. and in the greater context of counties and jurisdictions across the US, and with the knowledge we have of training and the visible militarization of community law enforcement, and the weekly social media posts revealing the bullying and unprofessionalism of so many individuals in law enforcement.. I mean, the list goes on and the anger that will be focused in this case is so predictable.
posted by elkevelvet at 10:23 AM on May 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
I don't want to defend the cops here,
Then don't?
I'm very uncomfortable with any pushback against the pushback against the police and carceral state especially given the current context. No one is 'blaming cops' but I see a lot of people speaking the truth and wanting to hold them accountable.
posted by Jarcat at 10:24 AM on May 26, 2022 [30 favorites]
Then don't?
I'm very uncomfortable with any pushback against the pushback against the police and carceral state especially given the current context. No one is 'blaming cops' but I see a lot of people speaking the truth and wanting to hold them accountable.
posted by Jarcat at 10:24 AM on May 26, 2022 [30 favorites]
Also, blaming the cops is a diversion from the real issue, which is the increasingly unrestricted access to powerful firearms along with reduced access to mental health care.
The thing is that SUPPORTING the cops is very often the tactic that gun nuts use to defend the Second Amendment, and this is a very convenient clapback ("Oh, you say that what we need is 'a good guy with a gun'? Well, here are a whole bunch of good guys with guns that did nothing and it still didn't work, now what?").
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:25 AM on May 26, 2022 [26 favorites]
The thing is that SUPPORTING the cops is very often the tactic that gun nuts use to defend the Second Amendment, and this is a very convenient clapback ("Oh, you say that what we need is 'a good guy with a gun'? Well, here are a whole bunch of good guys with guns that did nothing and it still didn't work, now what?").
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:25 AM on May 26, 2022 [26 favorites]
> thick concrete walls, narrow windows and single entry ways
Yay. Prisons for minors! Might as well set them up for adulthood early on.
posted by urbanwhaleshark at 10:26 AM on May 26, 2022 [8 favorites]
Yay. Prisons for minors! Might as well set them up for adulthood early on.
posted by urbanwhaleshark at 10:26 AM on May 26, 2022 [8 favorites]
when this has happened for hundreds of time and we see the display of officers and vehicles and equipment and armament, but always the bodies of kids and teachers, and you add the other daily or weekly check-stop videos, the violence to individuals for being in the wrong place at the wrong time, not to mention they don't look right and their skin colour fails to be white.. and if people aren't starting to ask: What good are you? re: the police, I don't know what
posted by elkevelvet at 10:27 AM on May 26, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by elkevelvet at 10:27 AM on May 26, 2022 [4 favorites]
Agreeing with EC. The point of pushing back against the failures of the police here is not to call for more or better police. The point is to say that the current paradigm, in which we are encouraged to believe that guns are not the issue, people simply need to be protected properly, demonstrably does not work. Cops cannot fix this. They have been given absurd amounts of money hoping to fix things like this. We can see here it simply does not work.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:28 AM on May 26, 2022 [11 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:28 AM on May 26, 2022 [11 favorites]
My gun nut friend (the last one I have hung onto) replied, "What kind of sick argument is that? Jesus [DOT] you're a mess."
Evidently, one for which your gun nut friend doesn't have a good answer.
posted by Gelatin at 10:28 AM on May 26, 2022 [6 favorites]
Evidently, one for which your gun nut friend doesn't have a good answer.
posted by Gelatin at 10:28 AM on May 26, 2022 [6 favorites]
I don't want to defend the cops here, but recognize that Uvalde is not a rich or large city with a median household income of $25K and 15K people, 78% of them Hispanic or Latino.
That spends 40% of its municipal budget on the cops who didn't do shit.
posted by Etrigan at 10:28 AM on May 26, 2022 [37 favorites]
That spends 40% of its municipal budget on the cops who didn't do shit.
posted by Etrigan at 10:28 AM on May 26, 2022 [37 favorites]
There's a lot of "oh the gunman barricaded himself in a classroom" but how did he get there in the first place? Cowardly decisions by cops that in every aspect of their other life will likely talk some bullshit about the "thin blue line that divides the protectors from the protected" or some other gross lies.
Meanwhile, as in Sandy Hook and elsewhere, two teachers died defending their kids.
posted by Gelatin at 10:31 AM on May 26, 2022 [15 favorites]
Meanwhile, as in Sandy Hook and elsewhere, two teachers died defending their kids.
posted by Gelatin at 10:31 AM on May 26, 2022 [15 favorites]
The name hasn't been mentioned once, unless the mods caught it.
Oh, the name is well known and well mentioned, adept 256, by Governor Abbott of Texas, for example, by news media all over and here in this thread. The name of the shooter in Buffalo is well known, too.
I understand your wishes but given the horrific nature of these crimes, the names of perpetrators will always be known. People will always want to know the who and the why after hearing the what, where and when of these horrors -- that horse is never coming back into the barn.
posted by y2karl at 10:45 AM on May 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
Oh, the name is well known and well mentioned, adept 256, by Governor Abbott of Texas, for example, by news media all over and here in this thread. The name of the shooter in Buffalo is well known, too.
I understand your wishes but given the horrific nature of these crimes, the names of perpetrators will always be known. People will always want to know the who and the why after hearing the what, where and when of these horrors -- that horse is never coming back into the barn.
posted by y2karl at 10:45 AM on May 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
Joe Garcia, the husband of Irma Garcia, one of two teachers shot and killed in Uvalde, TX on Tuesday, has reportedly suffered a fatal heart attack. Joe and Irma were high school sweethearts and married 24 years. They leave behind four children.
posted by fight or flight at 10:46 AM on May 26, 2022 [23 favorites]
posted by fight or flight at 10:46 AM on May 26, 2022 [23 favorites]
.
posted by Gelatin at 10:48 AM on May 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Gelatin at 10:48 AM on May 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
Meet the Uvalde SWAT team, thin-blue-lining across the landscape like colossi.
Odds are some of those people were pointing guns at the parents who wanted them to do something.
posted by thatwhichfalls at 10:49 AM on May 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
Odds are some of those people were pointing guns at the parents who wanted them to do something.
posted by thatwhichfalls at 10:49 AM on May 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
Much like Sandy Creek, this tragedy has me on a persistent loop of: Near Crying and Miserable; Processing; Nearly Ready to Start Coping; New Details That Are Also Awful; Repeat.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:50 AM on May 26, 2022 [13 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:50 AM on May 26, 2022 [13 favorites]
You're right - he was. I typed that out in the heat of the moment without thinking about this particular case because so many of these shooters are white men. The rest of the point still stands though that they clearly are not there to protect children from men armed with semi automatic rifles and instead are taking 40% of the town's budget to stand around and not do anything to save the lives of those at risk. That's worth pointing out, in addition to the fact that our country has some screwed up priorities if we are allowing 18 year olds to buy weapons of war.
posted by thebotanyofsouls at 11:01 AM on May 26, 2022
posted by thebotanyofsouls at 11:01 AM on May 26, 2022
Also, blaming the cops is a diversion from the real issue, which is the increasingly unrestricted access to powerful firearms along with reduced access to mental health care.
No, it is the core of the issue. The gun safety/control argument has been won by the lunatics. They want a society in which firearms of all kinds are everywhere and every single citizen feels the need to go to the supermarket or jogging or to the zoo or to a Cracker Barrel for dinner strapped because hey, who knows, right? Ted Cruz wants to "harden" schools, even though they've all pretty much been hardened. They believe in the "good guy with a gun" theory.
Well, there were a bunch of (arguably) "good guys" at the scene of this massacre. They did jack shit. In fact, they actively made the situation worse. This needs to be repeated over and over and over again.
(Also, can we stop with the mental health BS? The problem is the guns.)
posted by rhymedirective at 11:22 AM on May 26, 2022 [29 favorites]
No, it is the core of the issue. The gun safety/control argument has been won by the lunatics. They want a society in which firearms of all kinds are everywhere and every single citizen feels the need to go to the supermarket or jogging or to the zoo or to a Cracker Barrel for dinner strapped because hey, who knows, right? Ted Cruz wants to "harden" schools, even though they've all pretty much been hardened. They believe in the "good guy with a gun" theory.
Well, there were a bunch of (arguably) "good guys" at the scene of this massacre. They did jack shit. In fact, they actively made the situation worse. This needs to be repeated over and over and over again.
(Also, can we stop with the mental health BS? The problem is the guns.)
posted by rhymedirective at 11:22 AM on May 26, 2022 [29 favorites]
(Also, can we stop with the mental health BS? The problem is the guns.)
100% disagree with you here.
posted by Melismata at 11:31 AM on May 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
100% disagree with you here.
posted by Melismata at 11:31 AM on May 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
The AP is reporting that the cops sat around outside for "40 minutes to an hour" waiting for backup while bystanders were shouting at them to "Go in there! Go in there!"
There's been a pretty clear pattern emerging with mass shootings of police standing by and not actually doing anything resembling protecting or serving until it's all over, and even actively preventing people willing to do something about it from being able to do so.
This is exactly why I went on my huge rant about encouraging anyone with any amount of willingness to put themselves in harms way to do something during an active mass shooter incident to try do so.
Even without this clear pattern of police forces tactically standing by and waiting and even if we had ideal, effective policing, and even if we had less guns, no guns or effective gun control it's not like the police can be everywhere all the time to do any theoretical protecting. And we wouldn't want to live in that kind of society or culture because it would essentially mean that we all lived in a complete panaopticon and totalitarian state where everywhere was essentially a supermax prison and fortress and carceral state worse than any dystopian fiction ever written.
Even in much smaller incidents of social or cultural violence ranging from domestic violence to a stupid fight at the bar the police generally aren't there to do anything to prevent it and at best come to pick up the pieces or, maybe, just maybe, arrest an offender or take some reports.
Yes, there absolutely are better solutions to this than asking anyone at all to put themselves in harms way to stop an active shooter, but unfortunately that's not the society we currently live in and it's going to require a massive cultural sea change to even address these issues of weaponized hatred and pervasive gun ownership.
And in the absolutely horrible game theory thought exercise about this bullshit I wonder what would happen if parents or citizens tried to push past a police cordon and go for it anyway and they ended up getting shot or beat down by the police standing by and doing nothing until the shooter ran out of bullets.
And it's really clear we need massive police reform to demystify, demilitarize and deromanticize policing as a heroic sacrifice or more dangerous than it actually is. There's so many more mundane jobs that have higher fatality rates.
posted by loquacious at 11:46 AM on May 26, 2022 [14 favorites]
There's been a pretty clear pattern emerging with mass shootings of police standing by and not actually doing anything resembling protecting or serving until it's all over, and even actively preventing people willing to do something about it from being able to do so.
This is exactly why I went on my huge rant about encouraging anyone with any amount of willingness to put themselves in harms way to do something during an active mass shooter incident to try do so.
Even without this clear pattern of police forces tactically standing by and waiting and even if we had ideal, effective policing, and even if we had less guns, no guns or effective gun control it's not like the police can be everywhere all the time to do any theoretical protecting. And we wouldn't want to live in that kind of society or culture because it would essentially mean that we all lived in a complete panaopticon and totalitarian state where everywhere was essentially a supermax prison and fortress and carceral state worse than any dystopian fiction ever written.
Even in much smaller incidents of social or cultural violence ranging from domestic violence to a stupid fight at the bar the police generally aren't there to do anything to prevent it and at best come to pick up the pieces or, maybe, just maybe, arrest an offender or take some reports.
Yes, there absolutely are better solutions to this than asking anyone at all to put themselves in harms way to stop an active shooter, but unfortunately that's not the society we currently live in and it's going to require a massive cultural sea change to even address these issues of weaponized hatred and pervasive gun ownership.
And in the absolutely horrible game theory thought exercise about this bullshit I wonder what would happen if parents or citizens tried to push past a police cordon and go for it anyway and they ended up getting shot or beat down by the police standing by and doing nothing until the shooter ran out of bullets.
And it's really clear we need massive police reform to demystify, demilitarize and deromanticize policing as a heroic sacrifice or more dangerous than it actually is. There's so many more mundane jobs that have higher fatality rates.
posted by loquacious at 11:46 AM on May 26, 2022 [14 favorites]
I would contend that there is a mental health issue at play here, but not the "How do we keep lone, deranged people from committing mass shootings?" the GOP wants to blame (though, rather pointedly, do nothing about.)
The mental illness is a societal sickness in which a hefty portion of the United States has been utterly convinced that having guns, not just guns but lots of guns, so many guns is both a critical expression of their personal freedom and a way to stick it to their opponents. The result is a culture sick with guns, looking for chances to use guns, whether it be to "defend themselves" or shoot into a crowd to "help police* during a protest or as a tool for expressing discontent with society via mass shooting or even as just a scary prop to wave at a fascist rally to remind people they see as beneath them in the social order that violence is always close by.
America is addicted to guns. We're sick with it and it's killing us.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 11:52 AM on May 26, 2022 [35 favorites]
The mental illness is a societal sickness in which a hefty portion of the United States has been utterly convinced that having guns, not just guns but lots of guns, so many guns is both a critical expression of their personal freedom and a way to stick it to their opponents. The result is a culture sick with guns, looking for chances to use guns, whether it be to "defend themselves" or shoot into a crowd to "help police* during a protest or as a tool for expressing discontent with society via mass shooting or even as just a scary prop to wave at a fascist rally to remind people they see as beneath them in the social order that violence is always close by.
America is addicted to guns. We're sick with it and it's killing us.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 11:52 AM on May 26, 2022 [35 favorites]
The problem is guns (and worship of guns). The problem is cops who are violent against people they don't like and protect only themselves. The problems is children who are allowed to bully other children and adults who are allowed to bully children. The problem is a political party who doesn't particularly see this problem as a problem (except an occasional PR problem). The problem is patriarchy, toxic masculinity, white supremacy, authoritarianism with a side assist from capitalism. So many pieces of society are corrupt and evil that it's not even shocking this is an everyday occurrance.
posted by rikschell at 11:56 AM on May 26, 2022 [18 favorites]
posted by rikschell at 11:56 AM on May 26, 2022 [18 favorites]
Other countries have the same mental health and problems with violent, anti-social young men and yet they don’t have mass shootings as a regular thing. The only difference is our permissive gun ownership laws
posted by interogative mood at 11:56 AM on May 26, 2022 [36 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 11:56 AM on May 26, 2022 [36 favorites]
Other countries have the same mental health and problems with violent, anti-social young men and yet they don’t have mass shootings as a regular thing. The only difference is our permissive gun ownership laws
I wonder how many school shootings we'll have to have before this actually sinks in for everyone. I hate assuming bad faith but we've been doing this for decades now. It's very difficult for me to take the mental health arguments in good faith.
posted by imabanana at 12:06 PM on May 26, 2022 [6 favorites]
I wonder how many school shootings we'll have to have before this actually sinks in for everyone. I hate assuming bad faith but we've been doing this for decades now. It's very difficult for me to take the mental health arguments in good faith.
posted by imabanana at 12:06 PM on May 26, 2022 [6 favorites]
Republicans: Guns aren't the problem, it's mental illness.
Everyone else: So you're going to sponsor legislation to ensure easy, universal access to quality mental health care?
Republicans: lol fuck no
posted by logicpunk at 12:18 PM on May 26, 2022 [23 favorites]
Everyone else: So you're going to sponsor legislation to ensure easy, universal access to quality mental health care?
Republicans: lol fuck no
posted by logicpunk at 12:18 PM on May 26, 2022 [23 favorites]
He had inherited at least some of his mother’s mental (yes, drug use is mental illness, that’s why it’s called self medicating), based on what I’ve read of his past behavior. For nearly all of these shooters, I have read “yes, he’s had problematic behavior his whole life, but nothing was done.” How about trying to do something?
I 100% agree that gun laws should be changed. But mental illness is absolutely not BS as you say.
posted by Melismata at 12:19 PM on May 26, 2022 [4 favorites]
I 100% agree that gun laws should be changed. But mental illness is absolutely not BS as you say.
posted by Melismata at 12:19 PM on May 26, 2022 [4 favorites]
Oh, I agree that mental illness isn't BS. And that's why I think stronger gun control is the way to keep guns out of the hands of people with untreated and undiagnosed mental illness.
We can do both at the same time, even - advocate for better mental health care AND gun control.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:20 PM on May 26, 2022 [22 favorites]
We can do both at the same time, even - advocate for better mental health care AND gun control.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:20 PM on May 26, 2022 [22 favorites]
There's been a pretty clear pattern emerging with mass shootings of police standing by and not actually doing anything resembling protecting or serving until it's all over, and even actively preventing people willing to do something about it from being able to do so.
I was waiting for enough reporting to come out before joining the ACAB bandwagon.
Now I take back what I said.
Since we live in the age of the soundbite and hashtag, here's one:
Cops hide. Kids die.
This needs to be said loud and often.
posted by ocschwar at 12:21 PM on May 26, 2022 [10 favorites]
If this thread is accurate then there is no punishment adequate to what those cops did and failed to do.
posted by prefpara at 12:22 PM on May 26, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by prefpara at 12:22 PM on May 26, 2022 [8 favorites]
This is the best fucking Ted Cruz can do in his response to media questions. What an asshole - the fake sad face at the beginning of the interview is nauseating. And I wish every American journalist covering this would be as persistent as this Sky News reporter.
posted by bluesky43 at 12:33 PM on May 26, 2022 [10 favorites]
posted by bluesky43 at 12:33 PM on May 26, 2022 [10 favorites]
If fire departments took up 40% of our municipal budgets, spent their extra time driving around in circles kicking the shit out of people they pronounced were fire hazards, regularly burned people to death, and occasionally refused to fight particular fires because they seemed too dangerous, I wonder how that would go over.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:07 AM
When I read the reports of the lack of response from the police, I thought of the incredibly brave fire people who were heading up the stairs of the twin Towers as the building was being evacuated. And compare the police response to the security guard at the Tops Supermarket in Buffalo who was killed trying to stop that murderer. These police - who get 40%, think about that, 40% of this small town's budget, should be held accountable. full stop.
posted by bluesky43 at 12:38 PM on May 26, 2022 [17 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:07 AM
When I read the reports of the lack of response from the police, I thought of the incredibly brave fire people who were heading up the stairs of the twin Towers as the building was being evacuated. And compare the police response to the security guard at the Tops Supermarket in Buffalo who was killed trying to stop that murderer. These police - who get 40%, think about that, 40% of this small town's budget, should be held accountable. full stop.
posted by bluesky43 at 12:38 PM on May 26, 2022 [17 favorites]
He had inherited at least some of his mother’s mental (yes, drug use is mental illness, that’s why it’s called self medicating), based on what I’ve read of his past behavior. For nearly all of these shooters, I have read “yes, he’s had problematic behavior his whole life, but nothing was done.” How about trying to do something?
I 100% agree that gun laws should be changed. But mental illness is absolutely not BS as you say.
Okay, number 1, I didn't say "mental illness is BS". I said "can we stop with the mental health BS."
Yeah, people with "mental illness" murder people. So do lots of not mentally ill people. It's a scapegoat. In fact, society has historically chosen to medicalize disenfranchised/minority groups in order to convince "upstanding" citizens that the reason those groups are treated badly is because they are mentally ill. So yeah, I'm super skeptical of the motivations of people that bring up mental health in conjunction with mass shootings.
And this argument also completely elides the fact that in many instances of non-American mass shootings, the mass shooting occurred in a country with some form of nationalized health care. This does not appear to have helped. What helped was the government doing something about the guns.
posted by rhymedirective at 12:48 PM on May 26, 2022 [21 favorites]
I 100% agree that gun laws should be changed. But mental illness is absolutely not BS as you say.
Okay, number 1, I didn't say "mental illness is BS". I said "can we stop with the mental health BS."
Yeah, people with "mental illness" murder people. So do lots of not mentally ill people. It's a scapegoat. In fact, society has historically chosen to medicalize disenfranchised/minority groups in order to convince "upstanding" citizens that the reason those groups are treated badly is because they are mentally ill. So yeah, I'm super skeptical of the motivations of people that bring up mental health in conjunction with mass shootings.
And this argument also completely elides the fact that in many instances of non-American mass shootings, the mass shooting occurred in a country with some form of nationalized health care. This does not appear to have helped. What helped was the government doing something about the guns.
posted by rhymedirective at 12:48 PM on May 26, 2022 [21 favorites]
When people say "mental illness" I want to say, "what is your concrete policy proposal?"
Because if it involves increased surveillance and control of people who are mentally ill, that's going to discourage people who need help from getting help - both people who are potentially dangerous and people who are likely to be pretty harmless. (For example, many people with OCD have intrusive thoughts about violent acts, aren't in any way likely to harm others, but might be afraid of talking about those intrusive thoughts for fear of being assessed as potentially violent. And mental health professionals are not infallible when it comes to evaluating how likely someone is to be a threat to themselves or others.)
If it involves greater access to mental health services - great, sure, that's a good thing whether or not it prevents mass shootings! But out of the angry, disconnected people who are at risk of becoming mass shooters, I would bet that a lot of them absolutely will refuse to avail themselves of mental health services. They don't want to risk being vulnerable. They don't want to risk asking for help. They have internalized the notion that it is a challenge to their masculinity to admit weakness or talk about their feelings. Even if you can force them into therapy, you can't make them get anything out of it.
I really don't want to go down the road of forcibly institutionalizing people, because inevitably you're going to forcibly institutionalize people who aren't a threat to others, and people who are competent at lying are going to slip through. And I can never tell, when people say "mental health," whether what they mean is "it should be easier to get therapy" or "let's go back to the good old days when you could just lock someone up on very little evidence."
posted by Jeanne at 12:53 PM on May 26, 2022 [14 favorites]
Because if it involves increased surveillance and control of people who are mentally ill, that's going to discourage people who need help from getting help - both people who are potentially dangerous and people who are likely to be pretty harmless. (For example, many people with OCD have intrusive thoughts about violent acts, aren't in any way likely to harm others, but might be afraid of talking about those intrusive thoughts for fear of being assessed as potentially violent. And mental health professionals are not infallible when it comes to evaluating how likely someone is to be a threat to themselves or others.)
If it involves greater access to mental health services - great, sure, that's a good thing whether or not it prevents mass shootings! But out of the angry, disconnected people who are at risk of becoming mass shooters, I would bet that a lot of them absolutely will refuse to avail themselves of mental health services. They don't want to risk being vulnerable. They don't want to risk asking for help. They have internalized the notion that it is a challenge to their masculinity to admit weakness or talk about their feelings. Even if you can force them into therapy, you can't make them get anything out of it.
I really don't want to go down the road of forcibly institutionalizing people, because inevitably you're going to forcibly institutionalize people who aren't a threat to others, and people who are competent at lying are going to slip through. And I can never tell, when people say "mental health," whether what they mean is "it should be easier to get therapy" or "let's go back to the good old days when you could just lock someone up on very little evidence."
posted by Jeanne at 12:53 PM on May 26, 2022 [14 favorites]
No one is talking about institutionalizing anyone, just suggesting we don't sell them assault rifles. Doing nothing because you're looking for a perfect solution is still doing nothing, and I for one am sick of decades of this same play over and over again.
posted by Jarcat at 12:57 PM on May 26, 2022 [13 favorites]
posted by Jarcat at 12:57 PM on May 26, 2022 [13 favorites]
For me the disconnect comes from the police officer's sacred oath to make -- if needed -- the ultimate sacrifice in service to The People and their training that their #1 priority is to make it home alive at the end of their shift.
Thus we have cowards establishing a perimeter, because you know, their job has a pension.
posted by mikelieman at 1:06 PM on May 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
Thus we have cowards establishing a perimeter, because you know, their job has a pension.
posted by mikelieman at 1:06 PM on May 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
This is the best fucking Ted Cruz can do in his response to media questions.
If anyone ever has the opportunity to play poker with Ted Cruz, watch the left corner of his mouth*. You can see it twitch as he realizes that he gets to say "I'm sorry you think American exceptionalism is awful." and act like he won the debate and get out of that conversation.
* -- After you stop punching it.
posted by Etrigan at 1:11 PM on May 26, 2022 [13 favorites]
If anyone ever has the opportunity to play poker with Ted Cruz, watch the left corner of his mouth*. You can see it twitch as he realizes that he gets to say "I'm sorry you think American exceptionalism is awful." and act like he won the debate and get out of that conversation.
* -- After you stop punching it.
posted by Etrigan at 1:11 PM on May 26, 2022 [13 favorites]
it's interesting because law enforcement lobbyists are consistently advocating for gun control. my father-in-law, a retired detective in a major US city, absolutely despises when people brag to him about their guns, thinking he'd appreciate it. in his estimation, the vast majority of people shouldn't own firearms and, if he had his way, 99% of the guns circulating in the US would be destroyed
meanwhile, conservative, blue-line-bumper-sticker, we-love-cops conservatives tend to advocate strongly for no regulation, literally increasing the chance of armed conflict for police all while the unions and cops themselves lap all the positive attention up
there's a level of delusion to all of this that is going to look so primitive and simple and obvious to people living decades from now, just as we now think it's so obviously horrible that we shouldn't dose infants with alcohol
posted by paimapi at 1:19 PM on May 26, 2022 [13 favorites]
meanwhile, conservative, blue-line-bumper-sticker, we-love-cops conservatives tend to advocate strongly for no regulation, literally increasing the chance of armed conflict for police all while the unions and cops themselves lap all the positive attention up
there's a level of delusion to all of this that is going to look so primitive and simple and obvious to people living decades from now, just as we now think it's so obviously horrible that we shouldn't dose infants with alcohol
posted by paimapi at 1:19 PM on May 26, 2022 [13 favorites]
"In an update on the investigation, a Texas official says it's 'not accurate' that a Uvalde school district police officer may have confronted the gunman as he entered Robb Elementary... He walked in unobstructed initially...Four minutes later, law enforcement are coming in."
What does "coming in" mean? Driving to the school? Doesn't sound like officers entered the school or confronted the shooter for almost an hour! Then when one officer did get in the room, instead of taking the shooter down immediately, one of the students who was hiding said that the cops told the children call out for help—which got a child shot! THEN the other officers came in and killed the guy. JFC.
I read a response tweet from an ordinary person that said, more or less, watch the story keep changing until they find one that white people are comfortable with, and are they wrong?
posted by droplet at 1:26 PM on May 26, 2022 [47 favorites]
What does "coming in" mean? Driving to the school? Doesn't sound like officers entered the school or confronted the shooter for almost an hour! Then when one officer did get in the room, instead of taking the shooter down immediately, one of the students who was hiding said that the cops told the children call out for help—which got a child shot! THEN the other officers came in and killed the guy. JFC.
I read a response tweet from an ordinary person that said, more or less, watch the story keep changing until they find one that white people are comfortable with, and are they wrong?
posted by droplet at 1:26 PM on May 26, 2022 [47 favorites]
The cops know their cowardice/incompetence/disinterest/whatever is public knowledge now, and they're gonna lie through their fuckin' teeth over and over until everyone thinks they tried really hard, but tragedy happens, so oh well.
Droplet's last sentence nails it.
posted by heteronym at 1:31 PM on May 26, 2022 [13 favorites]
Droplet's last sentence nails it.
posted by heteronym at 1:31 PM on May 26, 2022 [13 favorites]
the wall street journal is claiming that the shooter was firing outside for 12 minutes before he entered the school
how in the world is that possible?
posted by pyramid termite at 1:36 PM on May 26, 2022 [4 favorites]
how in the world is that possible?
posted by pyramid termite at 1:36 PM on May 26, 2022 [4 favorites]
The Fog of War.
posted by toddforbid at 1:39 PM on May 26, 2022
posted by toddforbid at 1:39 PM on May 26, 2022
An excruciatingly detailed twitter thread describing the horror, absolute horror, of the lack of police response, except for their own children.
Brynn Tannehill
It begins:
Let's review the (reported) performance of the Uvalde Police and CBP response team on Tuesday:
- Waited 35-60 minutes before entering school while kids bled out, wasting golden hour
- Tazed / arrested parents begging them to go in, and attempting to rescue their kids themselves
and continues in horror.
posted by bluesky43 at 1:49 PM on May 26, 2022 [11 favorites]
Brynn Tannehill
It begins:
Let's review the (reported) performance of the Uvalde Police and CBP response team on Tuesday:
- Waited 35-60 minutes before entering school while kids bled out, wasting golden hour
- Tazed / arrested parents begging them to go in, and attempting to rescue their kids themselves
and continues in horror.
posted by bluesky43 at 1:49 PM on May 26, 2022 [11 favorites]
From the WSJ article: "After the confrontation ended with Ramos dead, school buses began to arrive to transport students from the school, according to Ms. Gomez. She said she saw police use a Taser on a local father who approached the bus to collect his child."
posted by BungaDunga at 2:02 PM on May 26, 2022 [10 favorites]
posted by BungaDunga at 2:02 PM on May 26, 2022 [10 favorites]
No one is talking about institutionalizing anyone, just suggesting we don't sell them assault rifles.
I honestly wish that there would be something like “firearms possession REQUIRES regular mental health counseling, for everyone, which will be made free” rather than “take the guns away from people with mental health conditions”, because while created with the best of intentions, what the latter winds up doing is creating this entire fucking subcategory of men who refuse to seek therapy because they’re afraid they will be identified as mentally ill and unable to buy firearms. And like sure, you could say “well they could just get over it” but they won’t.
Mental health counseling where it’s like the dentist and you go to get a tooth cleaning before you get a gun stamp - it’s not like it harms mentally healthy people to go get checked out, any more than it hurts people without cavities to get a tooth inspection and preventative treatment.
posted by corb at 2:34 PM on May 26, 2022 [17 favorites]
I honestly wish that there would be something like “firearms possession REQUIRES regular mental health counseling, for everyone, which will be made free” rather than “take the guns away from people with mental health conditions”, because while created with the best of intentions, what the latter winds up doing is creating this entire fucking subcategory of men who refuse to seek therapy because they’re afraid they will be identified as mentally ill and unable to buy firearms. And like sure, you could say “well they could just get over it” but they won’t.
Mental health counseling where it’s like the dentist and you go to get a tooth cleaning before you get a gun stamp - it’s not like it harms mentally healthy people to go get checked out, any more than it hurts people without cavities to get a tooth inspection and preventative treatment.
posted by corb at 2:34 PM on May 26, 2022 [17 favorites]
<>
Agree with this and the rest of your post as well. I think normalizing mental health care would go a long way towards helping our society heal and grow in a lot of ways.
posted by Jarcat at 2:38 PM on May 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
Agree with this and the rest of your post as well. I think normalizing mental health care would go a long way towards helping our society heal and grow in a lot of ways.
posted by Jarcat at 2:38 PM on May 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
it's interesting because law enforcement lobbyists are consistently advocating for gun control.
they are consistently advocating for gun control for other people. fixing the problem begins at home. cops cannot be trusted with guns and everyone knows it. they prove it every day. they prove it hard. libertarian gun-lovers always bring this out as their hypocrisy-finding argument twist (oho, so you think the only people with guns should be...the COPS?)
the counter to this is to say No, actually, I don't think that. nobody should be carrying guns around as a regular thing, especially cops. cops least of all. cops who pretend to be anti-gun but want to keep their own guns are not on the same side of this as we are, even if they call themselves gun control advocates and thereby do great harm by introducing corruption and hypocrisy to the issue. I want to stop everybody from doing at-will distance murders; they want to be the only people who can do them. it isn't the same position at all.
you may say that some non-cops disarming is better than nobody disarming, and I suppose that is true. anything is better than nothing. but special rules and special weapons for cops is a dead end street in hell. the easiest and most necessary baby step to decreasing gun violence would be denying guns to anybody ever accused of domestic violence or subject to a restraining order. I say accused and not convicted for a reason. this would inevitably affect some innocent people, which is fine, because they don't need guns either. more importantly, this would affect enormous numbers of cops.
posted by queenofbithynia at 2:40 PM on May 26, 2022 [14 favorites]
The thing about gun control is that it's one of the core components of the huge American cultural divide.
Unless you've grown up around, spoken with, and generally become familiar with, people on the American right the degree of importance they put on guns is difficult to overstate.
To a large segment of the US population guns are not tools. They are the symbol of, physical manifestation of, and guarantor of, themselves, their freedom, and their identity. They are both a symbol of that person's American citizenship and their self identiy as a free and independent person.
In many ways their core identity revolves around firearm ownership, and increasingly it's been expanded to carrying guns not merely owning them. To not own a gun, or to have their ownership subject to regulation, is an assault on their identity as free American citizens.
This is why the visceral response from DirtyOldTown's gun nut friend.
To people like most of us on MeFi a gun is a tool, a bit of machinery. So restricting them, licensing them, registering them, etc just as we do with cars seems uncontroversial and reasonable.
But to a person who sees owning guns as a symbol of their being, their freedom, Americanhood, value, and worth all in one metal package, talking about restricting it produces the same sort of reaction most of us have towards the end of Roe. I'm not arguing that they're the same. Nor that they're right. Merely that they see it in the same emotional light and it has the same emotional weight to them.
And that's why the conversation with them often seems irrational, seems to jump to bizarre and random places. Because we're talking about tools and they're talking about their identity.
We are not going to ever get their cooperation in any gun control. They believe they have already ceeded far too much ground to the forces of evil (us) and that their rights are decaying and being attacked. The fact that this is 100% false and in fact gun rights have expanded steadily for the past few decades is irrelevant. We're talking about faith here, not reason.
They will fight us every step of the way. They really do see dead children as an acceptable price to pay for "freedom". They don't like children being murdered, they don't want children to be murdered. But from their POV they don't see any way around it.
Other nations were able to respond to shootings with gun restrictions becasue not very many of their citizens had the same emotional relationship with guns that many Americans do.
I have no clue what the solution is. Like the core left/right divide it's a matter of looking at the world from different perspectives and seeing the same thing in different ways. I don't know how we can get them around to the view that guns are just things, not material representations of their selves, their freedom, their status as people.
But until either we can out number them sufficiently to impose gun control by force of law, or until they change their minds, that's where we are.
No amount of talk about dead kids will change their mind.
posted by sotonohito at 2:40 PM on May 26, 2022 [49 favorites]
Unless you've grown up around, spoken with, and generally become familiar with, people on the American right the degree of importance they put on guns is difficult to overstate.
To a large segment of the US population guns are not tools. They are the symbol of, physical manifestation of, and guarantor of, themselves, their freedom, and their identity. They are both a symbol of that person's American citizenship and their self identiy as a free and independent person.
In many ways their core identity revolves around firearm ownership, and increasingly it's been expanded to carrying guns not merely owning them. To not own a gun, or to have their ownership subject to regulation, is an assault on their identity as free American citizens.
This is why the visceral response from DirtyOldTown's gun nut friend.
To people like most of us on MeFi a gun is a tool, a bit of machinery. So restricting them, licensing them, registering them, etc just as we do with cars seems uncontroversial and reasonable.
But to a person who sees owning guns as a symbol of their being, their freedom, Americanhood, value, and worth all in one metal package, talking about restricting it produces the same sort of reaction most of us have towards the end of Roe. I'm not arguing that they're the same. Nor that they're right. Merely that they see it in the same emotional light and it has the same emotional weight to them.
And that's why the conversation with them often seems irrational, seems to jump to bizarre and random places. Because we're talking about tools and they're talking about their identity.
We are not going to ever get their cooperation in any gun control. They believe they have already ceeded far too much ground to the forces of evil (us) and that their rights are decaying and being attacked. The fact that this is 100% false and in fact gun rights have expanded steadily for the past few decades is irrelevant. We're talking about faith here, not reason.
They will fight us every step of the way. They really do see dead children as an acceptable price to pay for "freedom". They don't like children being murdered, they don't want children to be murdered. But from their POV they don't see any way around it.
Other nations were able to respond to shootings with gun restrictions becasue not very many of their citizens had the same emotional relationship with guns that many Americans do.
I have no clue what the solution is. Like the core left/right divide it's a matter of looking at the world from different perspectives and seeing the same thing in different ways. I don't know how we can get them around to the view that guns are just things, not material representations of their selves, their freedom, their status as people.
But until either we can out number them sufficiently to impose gun control by force of law, or until they change their minds, that's where we are.
No amount of talk about dead kids will change their mind.
posted by sotonohito at 2:40 PM on May 26, 2022 [49 favorites]
I honestly wish that there would be something like “firearms possession REQUIRES regular mental health counseling, for everyone, which will be made free”
Agree with this and the rest of your post as well. I think normalizing mental health care would go a long way towards helping our society heal and grow in a lot of ways.
posted by Jarcat at 2:40 PM on May 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
Agree with this and the rest of your post as well. I think normalizing mental health care would go a long way towards helping our society heal and grow in a lot of ways.
posted by Jarcat at 2:40 PM on May 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
I think gun ownership shook require regular mandatory continuing education and a regular safety inspection. Owners must show the gun is in good working order and that they have secure, child proof, safe storage for the gun and ammunition. Let’s say you need annually to have minimum of 60 hours a year of training divided between range time and mandatory safety classes. If you want to have a more advanced weapon like a semiautomatic double or triple training time.
posted by interogative mood at 2:51 PM on May 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 2:51 PM on May 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
To people like most of us on MeFi a gun is a tool, a bit of machinery.
please be careful with assumptions about who everybody is and what they know about other people.
You bring up women's reproductive freedom, a subject about which, you are quite right, I am not willing to compromise for a single second. Everyone I voluntarily associate with feels the same way. let's compare like to like for just a second.
when the dalkon shield was recalled, do you think that zero-compromise feminists staged violent protests to get those specific dangerous IUDs back, god damn the consequences, it doesn't matter how many women have to go to the hospital, the point is we may not want septicemia but we have the RIGHT to septicemia & you'll pry our life-threatening contraceptive devices from our cold dead hands? did they, who had (you're right!) every bit as passionate an attachment to their own physical autonomy as gun people have to their guns, make a religious cause out of the dalkon shield for the next half-century the way gun people have done with assault rifles?
they--well. I have to stop myself here & admit I was not yet alive at the time of the dalkon shield. in spite of that, I will go ahead and say No. they did not. and absolutely no-one today waves it as a flag or fights for that lost cause. why? because "not dying" is more important to even the most fanatical of pro-choicers than keeping a specific dangerous contraceptive device on the market and making a sacred symbol out of it out of principle. the right to birth control is everything, yet we don't actually want the free choice to purchase a tool for that purpose that will harm us.
I think the parallels are very real, and they do not support the idea that we see things in the same "emotional light" at all. a fanatical attachment to reproductive rights at all costs -- an attachment I personally have, so I know -- simply does not imply a lust for death or a wish to sacrifice our own bodies or the bodies of younger women for the cause. unlike gun people, we actually like to avoid that, when we can. if the emotional drive behind the attachment to guns functioned in the same primal way, they would be simply thrilled to abolish AR-15s (and no I don't care about categories and brand specifics, you know the kind of gun I mean).
but they aren't.
the analogy won't do. and it's not just because reproductive rights are good and guns are bad. they aren't just mistaken about what rights are important and it's not just the objects of attachment that are different. all of it is different and rotten. "identity" is simply not a sufficient explanation.
posted by queenofbithynia at 3:02 PM on May 26, 2022 [15 favorites]
^ I absolutely view a gun as a tool, for what it's worth, and I don't follow your argument
in the rural area I inhabit, people still do a fair bit of hunting for game meat. believe it or not, some people still do trapping, I curled in a league with a trapper.. I don't really get it or understand how there's any use for animal skins and furs, but then I look at some of the things (some, and a dwindling number) of Indigenous peoples in the area still make things with hides and furs, so.
a gun is precisely a tool as we define tools, it happens to be a tool designed to kill other animals. I do not own a gun, just like I do not own pneumatic tools.. just never learned to use those things properly. I do not understand all the people who view guns as part of some bullshit macho identity, or as an integral part of their freedom fantasy, but I don't see how a gun is not a tool
posted by elkevelvet at 3:31 PM on May 26, 2022 [4 favorites]
in the rural area I inhabit, people still do a fair bit of hunting for game meat. believe it or not, some people still do trapping, I curled in a league with a trapper.. I don't really get it or understand how there's any use for animal skins and furs, but then I look at some of the things (some, and a dwindling number) of Indigenous peoples in the area still make things with hides and furs, so.
a gun is precisely a tool as we define tools, it happens to be a tool designed to kill other animals. I do not own a gun, just like I do not own pneumatic tools.. just never learned to use those things properly. I do not understand all the people who view guns as part of some bullshit macho identity, or as an integral part of their freedom fantasy, but I don't see how a gun is not a tool
posted by elkevelvet at 3:31 PM on May 26, 2022 [4 favorites]
To a large segment of the US population guns are not tools. They are the symbol of, physical manifestation of, and guarantor of, themselves, their freedom, and their identity their dicks.
posted by kirkaracha at 3:41 PM on May 26, 2022 [9 favorites]
posted by kirkaracha at 3:41 PM on May 26, 2022 [9 favorites]
a gun is precisely a tool as we define tools, it happens to be a tool designed to kill other animals
AR-15s and other assault rifles are designed to kill people, and they're really good at it. They didn't take any of the kids at Sandy Hook to the hospital because the bullets tore their insides up and they died on the spot. That might be the case here.
These kids were in fourth grade. My daughter's in fourth grade. When I dropped her off at school this morning I realized there's a non-zero possibility I could be seeing her for the last time, like the parents of those kids at Uvalde. There's no reason it couldn't be my kid at our school next time.
posted by kirkaracha at 3:46 PM on May 26, 2022 [13 favorites]
AR-15s and other assault rifles are designed to kill people, and they're really good at it. They didn't take any of the kids at Sandy Hook to the hospital because the bullets tore their insides up and they died on the spot. That might be the case here.
These kids were in fourth grade. My daughter's in fourth grade. When I dropped her off at school this morning I realized there's a non-zero possibility I could be seeing her for the last time, like the parents of those kids at Uvalde. There's no reason it couldn't be my kid at our school next time.
posted by kirkaracha at 3:46 PM on May 26, 2022 [13 favorites]
look, I'm not from the US and there are countries where guns are still tools
stepping back, I realize we are dealing with one of a long series of terrorist events where men with guns designed to kill other humans appear to continue doing so and no-one can seem to do anything about that
this is not the place to be talking about whether guns are tools or not, I'm sorry for the derail. please delete these comments. sorry
posted by elkevelvet at 3:56 PM on May 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
stepping back, I realize we are dealing with one of a long series of terrorist events where men with guns designed to kill other humans appear to continue doing so and no-one can seem to do anything about that
this is not the place to be talking about whether guns are tools or not, I'm sorry for the derail. please delete these comments. sorry
posted by elkevelvet at 3:56 PM on May 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
(Also, can we stop with the mental health BS? The problem is the guns.)
It feels so pointless saying anything about anything about the epidemic of shooting rampages at this point, as if it hasn’t already been said, but if we’re gonna keep arguing the same shit anyway:
a.) It’s obviously part of America’s problem with guns, but it’s actually a weird corner of America’s much larger problem with guns, in which far more people are killed, one or two at a time, with small, cheap, ubiquitous guns.
b.) When I was in school in the 00s, Columbine was considered generation-defining, for almost a decade. I don’t know how one could choose a defining shooting of the 10s, and we didn’t just legalize firearms in 2007. “Mental illness” is a misnomer here, it’s not as if there’s a diagnosable syndrome that produces mass murderers, but some combination of sociological or psychological factors clearly does.
posted by atoxyl at 4:17 PM on May 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
It feels so pointless saying anything about anything about the epidemic of shooting rampages at this point, as if it hasn’t already been said, but if we’re gonna keep arguing the same shit anyway:
a.) It’s obviously part of America’s problem with guns, but it’s actually a weird corner of America’s much larger problem with guns, in which far more people are killed, one or two at a time, with small, cheap, ubiquitous guns.
b.) When I was in school in the 00s, Columbine was considered generation-defining, for almost a decade. I don’t know how one could choose a defining shooting of the 10s, and we didn’t just legalize firearms in 2007. “Mental illness” is a misnomer here, it’s not as if there’s a diagnosable syndrome that produces mass murderers, but some combination of sociological or psychological factors clearly does.
posted by atoxyl at 4:17 PM on May 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
queenofbithynia I apologize for using abortion as an example of a topic carrying tremendous emotional weight. It was not my intention to make any analogy at all between the pro-choice and pro-gun movements, but it was an ill considered thing to write regardless and as a cis man I should not have touched on it regardless of intent.
posted by sotonohito at 4:31 PM on May 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by sotonohito at 4:31 PM on May 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
You bring up women's reproductive freedom, a subject about which, you are quite right, I am not willing to compromise for a single second. Everyone I voluntarily associate with feels the same way. let's compare like to like for just a second.
The Supreme Court just said no one has a right to an abortion because the word "abortion" isn't in the Constitution. I don't see "assault rifle" or "AR-15" in there anywhere, either. By the Court's logic, people only have the rights to bear the arms that were used at the time, like a Brown Bess or a spontoon or a carronade.
posted by kirkaracha at 4:33 PM on May 26, 2022 [20 favorites]
The Supreme Court just said no one has a right to an abortion because the word "abortion" isn't in the Constitution. I don't see "assault rifle" or "AR-15" in there anywhere, either. By the Court's logic, people only have the rights to bear the arms that were used at the time, like a Brown Bess or a spontoon or a carronade.
posted by kirkaracha at 4:33 PM on May 26, 2022 [20 favorites]
So of course the late-night talk show guys did monologues on the event. Stephen Colbert and Seth Meyers did their usual jokes-with-anger with the crowd laughing at the big laugh lines and going "oooooohhhhh......" at the thought-provoking moments.
Jimmy Kimmel did something a little different. He filmed his monologue alone, before the audience got in. And....it wasn't jokey. It was serious. At times he wept. And then at the end, he ran a series of clips put together by the organization Everytown Against Gun Violence - clips of various politicians statements about gun rights, or appearing in campaign ads about guns, intercut with footage of the Uvalde coverage.
....I never thought I'd say it, but check this Jimmy Kimmel clip out.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:46 PM on May 26, 2022 [17 favorites]
Jimmy Kimmel did something a little different. He filmed his monologue alone, before the audience got in. And....it wasn't jokey. It was serious. At times he wept. And then at the end, he ran a series of clips put together by the organization Everytown Against Gun Violence - clips of various politicians statements about gun rights, or appearing in campaign ads about guns, intercut with footage of the Uvalde coverage.
....I never thought I'd say it, but check this Jimmy Kimmel clip out.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:46 PM on May 26, 2022 [17 favorites]
Jimmy Kimmel has come a long way from The Man Show. Now, he weeps on national television when he talks about kids being ill in the hospital. He rages at people dying from COVID. He demands action on gun violence.
He's come a long way.
posted by gwydapllew at 4:50 PM on May 26, 2022 [14 favorites]
He's come a long way.
posted by gwydapllew at 4:50 PM on May 26, 2022 [14 favorites]
Pistols is a tricky thing because in a lot of neighborhoods and some professions these are sadly actual personal protection weapons. Plus the first people who are going to be hit by these restrictions are the vulnerable and minorities by fascist-adjacent cops and the justice system only too willing to punish.
Personal protection against… other people with guns, sure. I’m not just trying to “well actually handguns are a bigger problem” in the mass shooting thread for the satisfaction of technical correctness. The basic logic of “handguns for self-defense,” the preference for theoretical personal protection in a niche scenario at the expense of adding lethal stakes to every confrontation, is absolutely core to the insanity of American gun culture.
I agree that it’s better to take a public health approach and focus on overall reduction of availability than to throw the book at people who get caught with an unlicensed gun, but
posted by atoxyl at 4:57 PM on May 26, 2022 [5 favorites]
Personal protection against… other people with guns, sure. I’m not just trying to “well actually handguns are a bigger problem” in the mass shooting thread for the satisfaction of technical correctness. The basic logic of “handguns for self-defense,” the preference for theoretical personal protection in a niche scenario at the expense of adding lethal stakes to every confrontation, is absolutely core to the insanity of American gun culture.
I agree that it’s better to take a public health approach and focus on overall reduction of availability than to throw the book at people who get caught with an unlicensed gun, but
posted by atoxyl at 4:57 PM on May 26, 2022 [5 favorites]
Let’s say you need annually to have minimum of 60 hours a year of training divided between range time and -
additional lead poisoning won't help anything
posted by Iris Gambol at 6:23 PM on May 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
additional lead poisoning won't help anything
posted by Iris Gambol at 6:23 PM on May 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
I feel like we're not taking the directly toxic effects of guns on their owners nearly seriously enough:
A possible association of lead exposure with Tourette syndrome seems particularly significant to me because, if you’ve got a gun in your hands, about the most forbidden thing you could possibly do with it is shoot a bunch of little kids.
posted by jamjam at 6:28 PM on May 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
Lead is found in small but appreciable quantities in air, soil, drinking water and food. Exposure to such amounts of lead does not cause acute lead toxicity, but produces subtle effects, particularly in children.These days, the primer for bullets is lead styphnate :
[…]
We concluded that low blood levels of lead cannot be considered “safe” or “acceptable” as it causes neurotransmitter alterations. Increased NE [norepinephrine] turnover is implicated in hyperactivity disorders such as ADHD and Tourette syndrome.
[…]
Lead is absorbed into the body following ingestion and inhalation exposure. Adult humans absorb 10–15% of ingested lead; however, children absorb up to 50% of ingested lead. Absorption is also increased in children suffering from iron or calcium deficiencies
Lead styphnate is mainly used in small arms ammunition for military and commercial applications. It serves as a primary explosive used in firearms primers, which will ignite upon a simple impact.[10]Automatics and semi-automatics are far more common than they used to be now that restrictions against owning them have been relaxed or overturned by the courts, and they are exposing the people who use them to a lot more lead than conventional guns would — and Ramos bought two AR-15s on his 18th birthday.
A possible association of lead exposure with Tourette syndrome seems particularly significant to me because, if you’ve got a gun in your hands, about the most forbidden thing you could possibly do with it is shoot a bunch of little kids.
posted by jamjam at 6:28 PM on May 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
The reporting mentioned that the police botched the engagement with the shooter, allowing him to kill another kid. One of the survivors recounted what happened, and the actual details are even more rage inducing:
The boy and four others hid under a table that had a tablecloth over it, which may have shielded them from the shooter's view and saved their lives. The boy shared heartbreaking details about what happened in that room.posted by NoxAeternum at 7:09 PM on May 26, 2022 [8 favorites]
“When the cops came, the cop said: 'Yell if you need help!' And one of the persons in my class said 'help.' The guy overheard and he came in and shot her," the boy said. "The cop barged into that classroom. The guy shot at the cop. And the cops started shooting.”
The Yankees and Tampa Bay Rays are using their Twitter accounts to provide information about gun violence tonight, instead of game coverage
posted by nubs at 7:18 PM on May 26, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by nubs at 7:18 PM on May 26, 2022 [5 favorites]
Maybe I'm cynical (why on earth might that be?), but this doesn't sound like something the cops would say if they were sure they hadn't accidentally shot an elementary school student.
posted by heteronym at 7:29 PM on May 26, 2022 [9 favorites]
posted by heteronym at 7:29 PM on May 26, 2022 [9 favorites]
Did a bit of digging to contextualize how the 40% of the city budget going to the police department looked since numbers can be skewed easily for small cities with very employees. The Uvalde police department employs 57 people (avg salary ~50K USD), that's 33 employees per 10K capita, which actually is more employee per capita than Los Angeles or Houston. So yeah wtf.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 7:50 PM on May 26, 2022 [9 favorites]
posted by WaterAndPixels at 7:50 PM on May 26, 2022 [9 favorites]
Maybe they should print facts about slavery on these guns. It worked for the books.
posted by adept256 at 8:01 PM on May 26, 2022 [11 favorites]
posted by adept256 at 8:01 PM on May 26, 2022 [11 favorites]
Article: The Wall Street Journal reported Thursday afternoon that one mother “was one of numerous parents who began encouraging — first politely, and then with more urgency — police and other law enforcement to enter the school. After a few minutes, she said, federal marshals approached her and put her in handcuffs, telling her she was being arrested for intervening in an active investigation.” Angeli Rose Gomez, who had children in second and third grade, told the Journal that she “convinced local Uvalde police officers whom she knew to persuade the marshals to set her free. Around her, the scene was frantic. She said she saw a father tackled and thrown to the ground by police and a third pepper-sprayed. Once freed from her cuffs, Gomez made her distance from the crowd, jumped the school fence, and ran inside to grab her two children. She sprinted out of the school with them.”
The aunt of one of the victims told a similar story to the New York Times, saying that her niece’s stepfather was restrained and handcuffed by police when he attempted to help her. “Nobody was telling him anything,” said Desiree Garza, whose niece Amerie Jo Garza was killed. “He was trying to find out. He wanted to know where his daughter was.” A nearly seven-minute video posted to social media [YouTube link] seems to support the reporting, showing police restraining parents outside of the school and even holding one person on the ground. -- "Texas police defend 'complex' shooting response as more details emerge" (Yahoo News May 26, 2022, excerpting several paywalled articles; emphasis mine)
posted by Iris Gambol at 9:44 PM on May 26, 2022 [28 favorites]
The aunt of one of the victims told a similar story to the New York Times, saying that her niece’s stepfather was restrained and handcuffed by police when he attempted to help her. “Nobody was telling him anything,” said Desiree Garza, whose niece Amerie Jo Garza was killed. “He was trying to find out. He wanted to know where his daughter was.” A nearly seven-minute video posted to social media [YouTube link] seems to support the reporting, showing police restraining parents outside of the school and even holding one person on the ground. -- "Texas police defend 'complex' shooting response as more details emerge" (Yahoo News May 26, 2022, excerpting several paywalled articles; emphasis mine)
posted by Iris Gambol at 9:44 PM on May 26, 2022 [28 favorites]
I really don't have hope for gun control to happen in the US unless everybody arms themselves. When the christofascist white supremecist minority that holds the government hostage starts to feel unsafe because theres a bunch of muslims or queer people or "angry" feminists walking around with ar15s thanks to their open carry laws, they might rethink it. But more guns would mean more violence before it would ever even maybe get to that point.
posted by WeekendJen at 12:42 AM on May 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by WeekendJen at 12:42 AM on May 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
"Texas police defend 'complex' shooting response as more details emerge"
Yeah, maybe not all that complex: "Texas Police Lieutenant Says Cops Were Reluctant to Engage Gunman Because ‘They Could’ve Been Shot’"
posted by rhizome at 12:51 AM on May 27, 2022 [24 favorites]
Yeah, maybe not all that complex: "Texas Police Lieutenant Says Cops Were Reluctant to Engage Gunman Because ‘They Could’ve Been Shot’"
posted by rhizome at 12:51 AM on May 27, 2022 [24 favorites]
You have this impression of a SWAT team being somewhat like firefighters, standing by their equipment ready to go the moment that alarm rings. It turns out this small town had a SWAT team (???) but it was only part-time. I guess the shooter didn't make an appointment.
You may wonder, what's the point of a part time SWAT team? You wouldn't accept a part time fire brigade. Emergencies don't run to a schedule. According to this ACLU report from 2012, 62% of SWAT deployments are drug raids (PDF).
So on top of the all the other lies, despite their stated purpose the SWAT team is not for emergencies. What they are actually for is the drug war.
41% of the town's budget is the figure I've heard. After we've fired these LYING COWARDS, let's defund their special toy collection and build a fucking library or something.
That number though... 41% holy shit.
posted by adept256 at 3:00 AM on May 27, 2022 [23 favorites]
You may wonder, what's the point of a part time SWAT team? You wouldn't accept a part time fire brigade. Emergencies don't run to a schedule. According to this ACLU report from 2012, 62% of SWAT deployments are drug raids (PDF).
So on top of the all the other lies, despite their stated purpose the SWAT team is not for emergencies. What they are actually for is the drug war.
41% of the town's budget is the figure I've heard. After we've fired these LYING COWARDS, let's defund their special toy collection and build a fucking library or something.
That number though... 41% holy shit.
posted by adept256 at 3:00 AM on May 27, 2022 [23 favorites]
Adept256, they have 3 full time firefighters and 21 volunteer ones, which actually make sense in a way since you don’t have fires every day.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 4:26 AM on May 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by WaterAndPixels at 4:26 AM on May 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
I often find the layers of police in the US a little confusing, so do I have this straight
-the school district here has its own officers;
-the town has its police force, including a SWAT team;
-it was Border Patrol that actually took the door (though a civilian had to open it)
If nothing else this sounds like a jurisdictional mess.
posted by nubs at 5:20 AM on May 27, 2022 [3 favorites]
-the school district here has its own officers;
-the town has its police force, including a SWAT team;
-it was Border Patrol that actually took the door (though a civilian had to open it)
If nothing else this sounds like a jurisdictional mess.
posted by nubs at 5:20 AM on May 27, 2022 [3 favorites]
nubs, also US Marshals were preventing parents from entering the building. So, lots of agencies were there, not doing shit to be helpful.
posted by rikschell at 5:30 AM on May 27, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by rikschell at 5:30 AM on May 27, 2022 [3 favorites]
I think it is worth noting just how little gun control would be needed to turn school mass shootings from a regular occurrence.
We know a few things about mass shootings.
They are almost always carried out using pistols or semi-automatic rifles. That isn't surprising, those are weapons designed for use against other people.
School shootings are carried out mostly by 16, 17 year olds. In this it was an 18 year old. Mass shootings in general are almost always carried out by young men.
Many countries where Americans assume "you can't own a gun" actually have gun laws that are more liberal than you probably think. There isn't even a minimum age to get a shotgun certificate in Great Britain (although you need to be 16 to own a shotgun and 18 to buy it yourself). In some parts of the country, ownership of break-barrel shotguns is pretty common. I have never seen a pump-action here, I think they might be illegal.
Owning a rifle, and this is restricted in practice for almost everyone to a breach loading bolt-action rifle, requires licensing and is not at all trivial. In theory you can get a license from 14 but (of course) that does not allow unsupervised use and police would scrutinise such an application very carefully.
In all cases, a certificate or license requires a police officer to inspect your storage location. It is a very serious offense not to store weapons properly.
Handguns, even breach-loaded target pistols which aren't really weapons in a conventional sense, simply aren't allowed.
If you look at many other European countries, here's what you find:
1) Unlike what Americans who have only ever been (if at all) to urban areas of Europe might suspect, many countries have substantial groups of hunters and target shooters.
2) Control is proportional to homicidal potential. Casual ownership of weapons designed for killing other human beings is strictly regulated even in places where shotguns and bolt action rifles are commonly owned.
3) Obligations to prevent children and teenagers accessing weapons are taken very seriously.
Some Americans who are against gun control look at that and say, "see, there's loads of shotguns in England, it's clearly not the guns and someone really motivated to kill will be able to get a gun anywhere" but in fact, severely limiting the most dangerous guns almost completely eliminates mass shootings and the attitude that "bad guys" will always be able to get guns ignore the fact that massacres are not committed by organised criminal Machiavellis but by deeply disturbed fringe figures who are in fact deterred by even pretty mild ownership restrictions.
posted by atrazine at 6:00 AM on May 27, 2022 [40 favorites]
We know a few things about mass shootings.
They are almost always carried out using pistols or semi-automatic rifles. That isn't surprising, those are weapons designed for use against other people.
School shootings are carried out mostly by 16, 17 year olds. In this it was an 18 year old. Mass shootings in general are almost always carried out by young men.
Many countries where Americans assume "you can't own a gun" actually have gun laws that are more liberal than you probably think. There isn't even a minimum age to get a shotgun certificate in Great Britain (although you need to be 16 to own a shotgun and 18 to buy it yourself). In some parts of the country, ownership of break-barrel shotguns is pretty common. I have never seen a pump-action here, I think they might be illegal.
Owning a rifle, and this is restricted in practice for almost everyone to a breach loading bolt-action rifle, requires licensing and is not at all trivial. In theory you can get a license from 14 but (of course) that does not allow unsupervised use and police would scrutinise such an application very carefully.
In all cases, a certificate or license requires a police officer to inspect your storage location. It is a very serious offense not to store weapons properly.
Handguns, even breach-loaded target pistols which aren't really weapons in a conventional sense, simply aren't allowed.
If you look at many other European countries, here's what you find:
1) Unlike what Americans who have only ever been (if at all) to urban areas of Europe might suspect, many countries have substantial groups of hunters and target shooters.
2) Control is proportional to homicidal potential. Casual ownership of weapons designed for killing other human beings is strictly regulated even in places where shotguns and bolt action rifles are commonly owned.
3) Obligations to prevent children and teenagers accessing weapons are taken very seriously.
Some Americans who are against gun control look at that and say, "see, there's loads of shotguns in England, it's clearly not the guns and someone really motivated to kill will be able to get a gun anywhere" but in fact, severely limiting the most dangerous guns almost completely eliminates mass shootings and the attitude that "bad guys" will always be able to get guns ignore the fact that massacres are not committed by organised criminal Machiavellis but by deeply disturbed fringe figures who are in fact deterred by even pretty mild ownership restrictions.
posted by atrazine at 6:00 AM on May 27, 2022 [40 favorites]
I think the reality of these situations is that a suicidal young man with high capacity firearms who surrounded himself with children is a formidable opponent and the police force has simply nothing to offer. Of course they were worried about dying. Not just that, how many times in reality has police “friendly fire” killed or injured bystanders? How many times in reality have police come on a scene and been unable to figure out who was the real shooter and who was a “good guy” whether the “good guy” was brandishing a gun or not? There’s reality and there’s manly “gut feelings” about how the world works if you’re a Rambo in your own mind. I think one of the things that white people woke up to in greater numbers after the murder of George Floyd is how this institution of policing that we believed served “us,” the law-abiding, reasonable citizens of this country, is an utter failure. Rotten. Shot through its core with racism, misogyny, toxic masculinity and contempt. And in its most basic purpose and function fails to make society safer.
Schools are hardened. Children are “prepared” to fight for their lives. The reality of a fire fight in a school is that the murderer has the upper hand. Let’s live in reality for a moment. It’s not a movie. This is our real failure and tragedy and we are powerless to stop it if we continue on as before, trusting in the gut feelings of highly fallible men under the spell of guns and a small minority of power brokers who thrive as we scramble in the chaos of our broken villages.
posted by amanda at 6:26 AM on May 27, 2022 [6 favorites]
Schools are hardened. Children are “prepared” to fight for their lives. The reality of a fire fight in a school is that the murderer has the upper hand. Let’s live in reality for a moment. It’s not a movie. This is our real failure and tragedy and we are powerless to stop it if we continue on as before, trusting in the gut feelings of highly fallible men under the spell of guns and a small minority of power brokers who thrive as we scramble in the chaos of our broken villages.
posted by amanda at 6:26 AM on May 27, 2022 [6 favorites]
A relevant twitter thread from Brad DeLong, a member of the Clinton administration who worked on a crime bill. The particulars are probably worth fact checking but he does give a pretty cogent analysis of how we ended up here.
Brad DeLong 🖖
@delong Replying to @asociologist
I found myself casting my memory back to the early days of the Clinton administration, when I was carrying spears for the Lloyd Bentsen Treasury. We were trying to construct a coalition for a "crime bill"—tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime. Bob Dole in the Senate... 1/
8:38 AM · May 27, 2022·
posted by bluesky43 at 6:37 AM on May 27, 2022 [6 favorites]
Brad DeLong 🖖
@delong Replying to @asociologist
I found myself casting my memory back to the early days of the Clinton administration, when I was carrying spears for the Lloyd Bentsen Treasury. We were trying to construct a coalition for a "crime bill"—tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime. Bob Dole in the Senate... 1/
8:38 AM · May 27, 2022·
posted by bluesky43 at 6:37 AM on May 27, 2022 [6 favorites]
I'm not sure whether it is projection or wishful thinking, or something I'm actually sensing....but I've had the weird feeling that something is a little different this time. Like, I can't shake the feeling that this weekend's NRA rally is going to be at the heart of something that's going to get a couple paragraphs' worth of discussion as being a "turning point" in history books.
What it would be a discussion about, I can't say.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:51 AM on May 27, 2022 [4 favorites]
What it would be a discussion about, I can't say.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:51 AM on May 27, 2022 [4 favorites]
The shooter wasn’t just using some cheap AR-15 style gun. The murderer had armed themselves with two high quality DDM4V7 riffles that cost close to $2000 each that they bought on two separate days along with about 375 rounds of ammunition, extra magazines and other accessories. How does a teenager afford such an expensive gun? Perhaps they had birthday money; or savings but The manufacturer’s website also notes that they offer financing, so the shooter could have purchased both guns by agreeing to a payment of under $200 a month.
posted by interogative mood at 8:21 AM on May 27, 2022 [15 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 8:21 AM on May 27, 2022 [15 favorites]
I've had the weird feeling that something is a little different this time.
I thought the same thing after Sandy Hook. Many people did. How many mass shootings ago was that?
posted by Roommate at 8:48 AM on May 27, 2022 [9 favorites]
I thought the same thing after Sandy Hook. Many people did. How many mass shootings ago was that?
posted by Roommate at 8:48 AM on May 27, 2022 [9 favorites]
Of course they were worried about dying
the entire justification for the existence of a heavily armed police force is that they would not be worried about dying, armored as they are in military combat gear, armor-outfitted trucks, automatic weapons, etc. and I think taking for granted that friendly fire from cops just randomly killing people is not something I nor the family and friends of people like Breonna Taylor think is a 'realistic' assumption that we should just expect from cops
something is fundamentally fucked about policing, about who they see as the enemy, about how trigger happy they are, and about how much they have a 'us vs them' mentality they have, and how terrified they're taught to feel in their own trainings
these fucking cops fucked up and fucked up badly, in a cowardly way, and took out their shame on the proximate victims of this terrible incidence, victims who were asking them to do their fucking jobs that they paid a shitload of money for them to do
there's a place to be realistic about how utterly delusional this country is about guns and gun control, about how our school system doesn't include anything like CBT or other behavioral health courses, about what to do when shit like this happens. but being realistic is not saying 'what could the cops have done in a difficult situation like this' - there was a lot they could've done that they didn't, at all, and people being pissed off as hell about it and about them is very very very fucking valid
posted by paimapi at 9:14 AM on May 27, 2022 [43 favorites]
the entire justification for the existence of a heavily armed police force is that they would not be worried about dying, armored as they are in military combat gear, armor-outfitted trucks, automatic weapons, etc. and I think taking for granted that friendly fire from cops just randomly killing people is not something I nor the family and friends of people like Breonna Taylor think is a 'realistic' assumption that we should just expect from cops
something is fundamentally fucked about policing, about who they see as the enemy, about how trigger happy they are, and about how much they have a 'us vs them' mentality they have, and how terrified they're taught to feel in their own trainings
these fucking cops fucked up and fucked up badly, in a cowardly way, and took out their shame on the proximate victims of this terrible incidence, victims who were asking them to do their fucking jobs that they paid a shitload of money for them to do
there's a place to be realistic about how utterly delusional this country is about guns and gun control, about how our school system doesn't include anything like CBT or other behavioral health courses, about what to do when shit like this happens. but being realistic is not saying 'what could the cops have done in a difficult situation like this' - there was a lot they could've done that they didn't, at all, and people being pissed off as hell about it and about them is very very very fucking valid
posted by paimapi at 9:14 AM on May 27, 2022 [43 favorites]
What a shitshow: A Border Patrol Tactical Team Was Ordered to Hold Back Before Confronting the Gunman
When specially equipped federal immigration agents arrived at the elementary school in Uvalde, Texas, on Tuesday, the local police at the scene would not allow them to go after the gunman who had opened fire on students inside the school, according to two officials briefed on the situation.posted by peeedro at 9:24 AM on May 27, 2022 [13 favorites]
The agents from Border Patrol and Immigration and Customs Enforcement arrived at some point between 12 p.m. and 12:10 p.m., according to the officials — far earlier than previously known. But they did not breach the adjoining classrooms of the school where the gunman had locked himself in until a little before 1 p.m. Members of the federal tactical team killed the gunman.
The officials said that members of the Uvalde Police Department kept the federal agents from going in sooner.
Many countries where Americans assume "you can't own a gun" actually have gun laws that are more liberal than you probably think. There isn't even a minimum age to get a shotgun certificate in Great Britain (although you need to be 16 to own a shotgun and 18 to buy it yourself). In some parts of the country, ownership of break-barrel shotguns is pretty common.
This. Break action shotguns for instance take even a skilled user 3-5 seconds to reload. In 3 seconds a typical adult can cover 50 feet. It's a tool so wholly unsuitable for mass shooting that one wouldn't even consider it. It's like if someone handed you a bowl of soup and gave you a fork to eat it with.
Compare to an AR-15 where a skilled user can fire at 45 rounds per minute with each 5.56mm round leaving the barrel with 1700J of energy. The sheer capability for mass murder with a semi automatic long gun is fucking insane and should never need to be put into human hands for any civilian purpose.
Things won't ever be perfect. Even Australia, poster child of gun control, criminals still have guns (albeit at sky high street prices) and gun violence between gangs still does occur. But small changes can still greatly attenuate what amounts to low effort mass murder and it's so utterly infuriating that we won't take them.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 9:25 AM on May 27, 2022 [17 favorites]
This. Break action shotguns for instance take even a skilled user 3-5 seconds to reload. In 3 seconds a typical adult can cover 50 feet. It's a tool so wholly unsuitable for mass shooting that one wouldn't even consider it. It's like if someone handed you a bowl of soup and gave you a fork to eat it with.
Compare to an AR-15 where a skilled user can fire at 45 rounds per minute with each 5.56mm round leaving the barrel with 1700J of energy. The sheer capability for mass murder with a semi automatic long gun is fucking insane and should never need to be put into human hands for any civilian purpose.
Things won't ever be perfect. Even Australia, poster child of gun control, criminals still have guns (albeit at sky high street prices) and gun violence between gangs still does occur. But small changes can still greatly attenuate what amounts to low effort mass murder and it's so utterly infuriating that we won't take them.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 9:25 AM on May 27, 2022 [17 favorites]
this doesn't sound like something the cops would say if they were sure they hadn't accidentally shot an elementary school student.
My "Not involved in human trafficking" T-shirt has people asking a lot of questions already answered by my shirt.
This is fucking awful.
posted by LooseFilter at 9:37 AM on May 27, 2022 [13 favorites]
My "Not involved in human trafficking" T-shirt has people asking a lot of questions already answered by my shirt.
This is fucking awful.
posted by LooseFilter at 9:37 AM on May 27, 2022 [13 favorites]
So, I hadn't seen this particular story until someone posted the NYPost blogspam version of it into my Facebook feed, but:
An abandoned haircut, a shotgun and a plan: How a Border Patrol agent got his daughter and others out. "Once he got to the school, he learned that a tactical team was already forming to enter the wing where the shooter was holed up. So Mr. Albarado quickly made a plan with other officers at the scene: evacuate as many children as possible. Armed with a shotgun that his barber had lent him, Mr. Albarado said he led his colleagues toward the wing of the school that housed his daughter’s classroom."
As written, the implications of the story are intensely fucked.
1- they didn't have a plan to rescue students until Shotgun Cop showed up
2- they picked which wing to send a couple dudes to based on where Shotgun Cop's kid's classroom was
3- this happened while they were arresting and detaining unarmed parents who were trying to do the same thing
Now, I'm not saying what the cop said in this instance is accurate, but if it is...
posted by BungaDunga at 9:40 AM on May 27, 2022 [19 favorites]
An abandoned haircut, a shotgun and a plan: How a Border Patrol agent got his daughter and others out. "Once he got to the school, he learned that a tactical team was already forming to enter the wing where the shooter was holed up. So Mr. Albarado quickly made a plan with other officers at the scene: evacuate as many children as possible. Armed with a shotgun that his barber had lent him, Mr. Albarado said he led his colleagues toward the wing of the school that housed his daughter’s classroom."
As written, the implications of the story are intensely fucked.
1- they didn't have a plan to rescue students until Shotgun Cop showed up
2- they picked which wing to send a couple dudes to based on where Shotgun Cop's kid's classroom was
3- this happened while they were arresting and detaining unarmed parents who were trying to do the same thing
Now, I'm not saying what the cop said in this instance is accurate, but if it is...
posted by BungaDunga at 9:40 AM on May 27, 2022 [19 favorites]
I've had the weird feeling that something is a little different this time.
I would love dearly to be wrong, but to this point, the only time something is different on this issue is when it becomes worse.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:52 AM on May 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
I would love dearly to be wrong, but to this point, the only time something is different on this issue is when it becomes worse.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:52 AM on May 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
Either cops are glorious white knights riding in on armored steeds to save us lesser beings who can't comprehend their superior reasoning OR they're just a bunch of schlubs who can't be expected to do anything your average citizen wouldn't do. They don't get to have it both ways.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 9:54 AM on May 27, 2022 [22 favorites]
posted by The Underpants Monster at 9:54 AM on May 27, 2022 [22 favorites]
there was a lot they could've done that they didn't, at all, and people being pissed off as hell about it and about them is very very very fucking valid
Absolutely. I'm calling attention to the fantasy thinking that there's any action that isn't a completely tragic bloodbath in the face of our current state of life here in America. The facts are, a suicidal 18-year-old can legally purchase firearms and walk into a crowd of children and there's no special man with special, super secret training and powers that fixes that situation better than that 18-year-old not having access to guns of any sort. It's not unlike our situation with Russia. They have their finger on nuclear weapons. We are stuck. There's no special sniper man that comes into this situation where the day is saved. I guarantee you, it's about to happen again, right now. Or tomorrow. Each one of these incidents are an escalation of reality that the pablum we have been fed to keep us quiet (good guy with a gun, hardening the schools, active shooter drills, special SWAT squads) is just chum in the water.
posted by amanda at 10:05 AM on May 27, 2022 [9 favorites]
Absolutely. I'm calling attention to the fantasy thinking that there's any action that isn't a completely tragic bloodbath in the face of our current state of life here in America. The facts are, a suicidal 18-year-old can legally purchase firearms and walk into a crowd of children and there's no special man with special, super secret training and powers that fixes that situation better than that 18-year-old not having access to guns of any sort. It's not unlike our situation with Russia. They have their finger on nuclear weapons. We are stuck. There's no special sniper man that comes into this situation where the day is saved. I guarantee you, it's about to happen again, right now. Or tomorrow. Each one of these incidents are an escalation of reality that the pablum we have been fed to keep us quiet (good guy with a gun, hardening the schools, active shooter drills, special SWAT squads) is just chum in the water.
posted by amanda at 10:05 AM on May 27, 2022 [9 favorites]
From Vox, "Mass shootings typically lead to looser gun laws, not stronger ones":
posted by mhum at 10:06 AM on May 27, 2022 [7 favorites]
Recent research finds that this seemingly perverse response — the use of a mass shooting as a justification for loosening gun laws and calling for more guns — is actually the norm in the United States. One study, published in the Journal of Public Economics in 2020, examined state legislatures’ policy responses in the wake of mass shootings — and found that they were heavily tilted toward lax regulation.There's a bunch more in the article, including links to other related studies.
“In states with Republican-controlled legislatures, a mass shooting roughly doubles the number of laws enacted that loosen gun restrictions in the year following the incident,” the authors write. “We find no significant effect of mass shootings on laws enacted when there is a Democrat-controlled legislature. We also find no significant effect of mass shootings on the number of enacted laws that tighten gun restrictions.”
[...]
It’s possible this trend may change. In the past few years, the NRA has faced massive legal problems while gun control advocates have continued to organize.
But in an intensely polarized society where legislation faces many political veto points — like the Senate filibuster and extremely pro-gun Supreme Court majority — it’s hard to make significant changes at the federal level or in Republican-controlled states. Gun control advocates aren’t just at an organizational disadvantage; they’re at a structural one. They’d have to outcompete the NRA and its allies not just a little, but dramatically, to really transform the way American responds to mass shootings.
posted by mhum at 10:06 AM on May 27, 2022 [7 favorites]
One thing we have not really delved into here is that the Border Patrol were the ones that finally stopped him. We have talked a fair bit about how that happened when it should have been the police well before then. What we have not talked about is a) how weird it is that cops called them at all, particularly in a town with a SWAT Team, and b) what it says about our Border Patrol, the ostensible neutral guardians of our entry zones, that they were like "Fuck yeah we'll work out of our jurisdiction and take somebody out! Point us to him! We can't wait to get to shoot somebody."
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:09 AM on May 27, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:09 AM on May 27, 2022 [6 favorites]
My guess on that, DOT, is that the Border Patrol agents were acting on their own initiative and were as sickened by waiting as the parents, and we know the local cops wouldn't do anything to someone in body armor with a weapon so they could act freely.
posted by Jarcat at 10:15 AM on May 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by Jarcat at 10:15 AM on May 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
"In response to questions about why there was a significant delay in authorities responding to the shooter, the director of the Texas Department of Public Safety that the on-scene commander believed it was “considered a barricaded subject situation,” rather than an active shooter situation."
posted by BungaDunga at 10:16 AM on May 27, 2022
posted by BungaDunga at 10:16 AM on May 27, 2022
I went to school before they had rentacops or god forbid real cops stationed in schools to terrorize us, so I do not know if the answer to this question is simple & obvious or not, but regarding the shifting circle of lies about the existence or presence of a "school resource officer": would school faculty & staff not know the answer to that, and know that person's name, contact info, and general schedule if in fact he does exist? or is this a floating position where a different useless fuck shows up every day and nobody tells you school security status even if you work there?
because I am confused as to why the reporting I have seen has only discussed what police say about the matter. wouldn't it be very easy to sort out with a few phone calls? even parents might know
posted by queenofbithynia at 10:19 AM on May 27, 2022 [6 favorites]
because I am confused as to why the reporting I have seen has only discussed what police say about the matter. wouldn't it be very easy to sort out with a few phone calls? even parents might know
posted by queenofbithynia at 10:19 AM on May 27, 2022 [6 favorites]
the entire justification for the existence of a heavily armed police force is that they would not be worried about dying, armored as they are in military combat gear, armor-outfitted trucks, automatic weapons, etc. and I think taking for granted that friendly fire from cops just randomly killing people is not something I nor the family and friends of people like Breonna Taylor think is a 'realistic' assumption that we should just expect from cops
Thisthisthisthisthis.
I am tired, beyond tired, of cops in this country getting military equipment and pretending that they're in a war with the people they are supposedly protecting and so they need to be fetishized and painstakingly catered to at all moments, all the while acting in ways that would be considered literal war crimes if they were actually a member of the military.
I am confused as to why the reporting I have seen has only discussed what police say about the matter
My bet is that school officials have been told not to talk to the media, lest they accidentally contradict the narrative the cops are desperately trying to form.
posted by corb at 10:21 AM on May 27, 2022 [33 favorites]
Thisthisthisthisthis.
I am tired, beyond tired, of cops in this country getting military equipment and pretending that they're in a war with the people they are supposedly protecting and so they need to be fetishized and painstakingly catered to at all moments, all the while acting in ways that would be considered literal war crimes if they were actually a member of the military.
I am confused as to why the reporting I have seen has only discussed what police say about the matter
My bet is that school officials have been told not to talk to the media, lest they accidentally contradict the narrative the cops are desperately trying to form.
posted by corb at 10:21 AM on May 27, 2022 [33 favorites]
Oh, but also (from the same link): "The authorities now say that local officers first entered the school at 11:35, two minutes after the gunman, and that there were 19 officers in the hallway by 12:03 p.m., but that they did not breach the door and kill the gunman until 12:50, even as they continued to hear him firing."
How do 19 cops in a hallway stand around listening to that?
posted by BungaDunga at 10:21 AM on May 27, 2022 [29 favorites]
How do 19 cops in a hallway stand around listening to that?
posted by BungaDunga at 10:21 AM on May 27, 2022 [29 favorites]
oh yeah I heard that too about staff being told to keep quiet, but I've read at least one story with quotes anonymously attributed for that very reason. I know teachers have to worry about keeping their jobs but I don't think they're worried about saving anyone's reputation, I think most of them would be happy to answer the right questions if their names were kept out of it. but maybe they don't actually have the information
posted by queenofbithynia at 10:25 AM on May 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by queenofbithynia at 10:25 AM on May 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
The threadreader for bluesky43's Twitter link to the Brad DeLong history lesson. He thinks the turning point is "Newt Gingrich became Speaker of the House" [1995] -- and rallied Republicans against the recently-passed crime bill, which had banned assault weapons.
Over at wikipedia: "The Public Safety and Recreational Firearms Use Protection Act or Federal Assault Weapons Ban (AWB) was a subsection of the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994, a United States federal law which included a prohibition on the manufacture for civilian use of certain semi-automatic firearms that were defined as assault weapons as well as certain ammunition magazines that were defined as large capacity."
The U.S. Once Had A Ban On Assault Weapons — Why Did It Expire? (NPR, Aug. 2019); Understanding the 1994 assault weapons ban and why it ended: The ban was law for a decade before expiring in 2004, but the effectiveness of the ban has been debated ever since. [...] Most reviews of the 1994 version of the assault weapons ban point to loopholes in the text of the bill that, some argue, made it less effective than some would have wanted. (ABC News, Sept. 2019)
posted by Iris Gambol at 10:25 AM on May 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
Over at wikipedia: "The Public Safety and Recreational Firearms Use Protection Act or Federal Assault Weapons Ban (AWB) was a subsection of the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994, a United States federal law which included a prohibition on the manufacture for civilian use of certain semi-automatic firearms that were defined as assault weapons as well as certain ammunition magazines that were defined as large capacity."
The U.S. Once Had A Ban On Assault Weapons — Why Did It Expire? (NPR, Aug. 2019); Understanding the 1994 assault weapons ban and why it ended: The ban was law for a decade before expiring in 2004, but the effectiveness of the ban has been debated ever since. [...] Most reviews of the 1994 version of the assault weapons ban point to loopholes in the text of the bill that, some argue, made it less effective than some would have wanted. (ABC News, Sept. 2019)
posted by Iris Gambol at 10:25 AM on May 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
If this Facebook post from Hillary Clinton is to be believed, the effectiveness of the ban isn't all that damn debatable.
posted by bink at 10:36 AM on May 27, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by bink at 10:36 AM on May 27, 2022 [4 favorites]
bink, what does it say? I can't see it because I'm not on FB.
posted by Too-Ticky at 10:52 AM on May 27, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Too-Ticky at 10:52 AM on May 27, 2022 [1 favorite]
Sorry, I assumed it would be public. There's a graphic showing mass shootings on a timeline and the number of shootings substantially increases right around 2004.
posted by bink at 10:55 AM on May 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by bink at 10:55 AM on May 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
> Too-Ticky: "what does it say? I can't see it because I'm not on FB."
It's this infographic of mass shootings in the US over time that shows a marked increase post-2005. It's unsourced but from the pale pink background, I suspect it's from the Financial Times.
posted by mhum at 11:02 AM on May 27, 2022 [3 favorites]
It's this infographic of mass shootings in the US over time that shows a marked increase post-2005. It's unsourced but from the pale pink background, I suspect it's from the Financial Times.
posted by mhum at 11:02 AM on May 27, 2022 [3 favorites]
It is madness that the effectiveness of bans can be up for debate. Every other country that suffers gun massacres has ended gun ownership, on some level. The effectiveness of these measures is not up for debate. Massacre deaths are zero in these countries. The United States is not a special case, whatever gun owners say.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 11:04 AM on May 27, 2022 [12 favorites]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 11:04 AM on May 27, 2022 [12 favorites]
I made a simpler graph because I couldn't find one anywhere (which was weird). I can't see if it's the same as the Hillary one.
posted by rhizome at 11:14 AM on May 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by rhizome at 11:14 AM on May 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
It is madness that the effectiveness of bans can be up for debate. Every other country that suffers gun massacres has ended gun ownership, on some level. The effectiveness of these measures is not up for debate. Massacre deaths are zero in these countries. The United States is not a special case, whatever gun owners say.
The assault weapon ban was pretty different and had more loopholes than the measures taken in other countries, so it's fair to ask how much good it did. I don't know what the answer is to that actually! If it didn't work very well then, in a sane world, we'd be looking at how to fix it with a new ban.
posted by BungaDunga at 11:19 AM on May 27, 2022 [1 favorite]
The assault weapon ban was pretty different and had more loopholes than the measures taken in other countries, so it's fair to ask how much good it did. I don't know what the answer is to that actually! If it didn't work very well then, in a sane world, we'd be looking at how to fix it with a new ban.
posted by BungaDunga at 11:19 AM on May 27, 2022 [1 favorite]
So my small Canadian city's police force dropped over a half mil on this last summer, and boy did I let my city council and the police department know that this was NOT a reasonable purchase for a town of our size. Especially when the news story mentioned:
“Whether you need to keep a safe distance between groups of demonstrators, shield police officers from falling projectiles or evacuate civilians from an imminent threat, our state-of-the-art trucks are designed to offer superior protection, keep threats at bay and limit the impact on people. …"
My complaint made it all the way to the police chief, Antje McNeely, who personally reached out to me to discuss this. After vetting this was a legit good faith gesture by other activists in the community, I accepted on the condition that this was to be a personal meeting, not a "look we listen to the community" gesture.
She never responded back.
So yeah, we are fucking militarizing the hell out of our police everywhere, and we are all starting to look like nails and they have all the hammers.
posted by Kitteh at 11:20 AM on May 27, 2022 [26 favorites]
“Whether you need to keep a safe distance between groups of demonstrators, shield police officers from falling projectiles or evacuate civilians from an imminent threat, our state-of-the-art trucks are designed to offer superior protection, keep threats at bay and limit the impact on people. …"
My complaint made it all the way to the police chief, Antje McNeely, who personally reached out to me to discuss this. After vetting this was a legit good faith gesture by other activists in the community, I accepted on the condition that this was to be a personal meeting, not a "look we listen to the community" gesture.
She never responded back.
So yeah, we are fucking militarizing the hell out of our police everywhere, and we are all starting to look like nails and they have all the hammers.
posted by Kitteh at 11:20 AM on May 27, 2022 [26 favorites]
Fuck yeah we'll work out of our jurisdiction and take somebody out! Point us to him! We can't wait to get to shoot somebody.
I agree with your overall point. The border patrol's "justification" is that anything within 100 miles of the border is their jurisdiction.
This, conveniently, includes approximately 2/3 of the U.S. population.
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 11:25 AM on May 27, 2022 [7 favorites]
I agree with your overall point. The border patrol's "justification" is that anything within 100 miles of the border is their jurisdiction.
This, conveniently, includes approximately 2/3 of the U.S. population.
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 11:25 AM on May 27, 2022 [7 favorites]
I'm not sure whether it is projection or wishful thinking, or something I'm actually sensing....but I've had the weird feeling that something is a little different this time.
North of the border, something is a little different this time. Now that we're seeing the collective pace of transgenerational trauma tighten up south of the border (i.e. this 18-year-old shooter was born and raised [it could be argued] purely as a product of the Columbine Era, not unlike the timing of the Decretei and how it was their population's presence within the collective twenty years following the implementation of disatrous Cold War Era policy that brought about the watershed moment signalling Ceaușescu's fall from power), something that's a little different this time at least north of the border is that Canada's Parliament is overcoming the learned helplessness of its indentureship legacy by legislating new gun-control measures targeting assault-style firearms.
Trudeau, although imperfect, is also very brave. While he might not have the savvy to effectively address the issue of mass graves of children within his own domestic jurisdiction, he does have his own Old World left-wing settler vultures to feed, while having to fend off reborn right-wing colonial vultures from directly attacking the Liberal nest at the same time. If you don't believe that Canada has its own right-wing racist wing-nutters up here, please see "Freedom Convoy" events of Jan-Feb earlier this year.
Fwiw the price of freedom and liberty appears to have been mass graves of children (in addition to their parents and elders) in colonies throughout the "New" World. Why? Why do Old World European Elders, i.e. Great White Vultures, need so much power, privilege and racial hierarchy requiring the production of mass graves of children? Perhaps it has something to do with the dissociative festering attachment wounds of Old World Indentureship, in which many Great White People imposed horrific narcissistic terms and conditions to the attachment contract-relationships they had with their offspring. Imagine the many generations of intra-psychic death children in their bloodlines experienced at the hands of such Elders, who convinced themselves it was all "for their own good". Do you have parents who love yet abuse you? Don't worry, it's for your own good. One day, when the future is Whiter and all these problems have magically vanished thanks to blind faith we have in our Vulture-Elders, you'll understand... kind of like those kids in 1940s Nazi Germany and now those contemporarily in Putin's Russia.
posted by human ecologist at 11:39 AM on May 27, 2022 [8 favorites]
North of the border, something is a little different this time. Now that we're seeing the collective pace of transgenerational trauma tighten up south of the border (i.e. this 18-year-old shooter was born and raised [it could be argued] purely as a product of the Columbine Era, not unlike the timing of the Decretei and how it was their population's presence within the collective twenty years following the implementation of disatrous Cold War Era policy that brought about the watershed moment signalling Ceaușescu's fall from power), something that's a little different this time at least north of the border is that Canada's Parliament is overcoming the learned helplessness of its indentureship legacy by legislating new gun-control measures targeting assault-style firearms.
Trudeau, although imperfect, is also very brave. While he might not have the savvy to effectively address the issue of mass graves of children within his own domestic jurisdiction, he does have his own Old World left-wing settler vultures to feed, while having to fend off reborn right-wing colonial vultures from directly attacking the Liberal nest at the same time. If you don't believe that Canada has its own right-wing racist wing-nutters up here, please see "Freedom Convoy" events of Jan-Feb earlier this year.
Fwiw the price of freedom and liberty appears to have been mass graves of children (in addition to their parents and elders) in colonies throughout the "New" World. Why? Why do Old World European Elders, i.e. Great White Vultures, need so much power, privilege and racial hierarchy requiring the production of mass graves of children? Perhaps it has something to do with the dissociative festering attachment wounds of Old World Indentureship, in which many Great White People imposed horrific narcissistic terms and conditions to the attachment contract-relationships they had with their offspring. Imagine the many generations of intra-psychic death children in their bloodlines experienced at the hands of such Elders, who convinced themselves it was all "for their own good". Do you have parents who love yet abuse you? Don't worry, it's for your own good. One day, when the future is Whiter and all these problems have magically vanished thanks to blind faith we have in our Vulture-Elders, you'll understand... kind of like those kids in 1940s Nazi Germany and now those contemporarily in Putin's Russia.
posted by human ecologist at 11:39 AM on May 27, 2022 [8 favorites]
As a Canadian, I am so pleased that this government has the savvy to move forward on the new gun measures in the wake of this unthinkable tragedy.
posted by kitcat at 12:04 PM on May 27, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by kitcat at 12:04 PM on May 27, 2022 [3 favorites]
So yeah, we are fucking militarizing the hell out of our police everywhere, and we are all starting to look like nails and they have all the hammers.
It's particularly unsettling in the context of cops who are less smart than a sack of hammers - in a sort of parallel to what's emerging about the police response in Uvalde, there's currently a public inquiry underway into the 2020 Portapique massacre.
This has emerged:
Yesterday, retired RCMP Staff Sergeant Al Carroll testified via Zoom at the Mass Casualty Commission (MCC), the public inquiry into the mass murders of April 18/19, 2020.
Through his questioning of Carroll, MCC lawyer Roger Burrill aptly laid out how a series of cascading policing errors built upon each other such that the killer was able to escape Portapique long before midnight, and that possibility wasn’t fully appreciated until Lillian Campbell was killed in Wentworth at 9:30 the next morning.
[...]
It was in the early hours of April 19 when Carroll and Staff Sergeant Addie MacCallum were at the Bible Hill detachment trying to look at maps. I say “trying” because they didn’t have reliable maps — at one point MacCallum pulled out a road atlas. Carroll explained that MacCallum pulled up various maps — he thought it was Google Maps or Google Earth — on the computer, and he was looking over MacCallum’s shoulder. Carroll explained that he wasn’t very good at computers.
They didn't know how to use maps.
But there's also the problem that most of the guns the shooter had originated from the U.S., and he was illegally in possession of them (this had been reported to the police well in advance of his rampage, but they...didn't bother to investigate).
Canada has fairly reasonable restrictions on firearms (I'd argue they could be tighter, but that's a whole other discussion), in addition to strict rules around storing and transporting them. Portapique also resulted in further gun control legislation. Debates as to its merits aside, it's at least a legislative response that seeks to at least do something, like the responses to Dunblane, Christchurch, and École Polytechnique, to name a few.
Even if these measures help only somewhat, they beat the hell out of thoughts and prayers any day of the week.
Anecdotally speaking, I'd say that things like open carry are generally viewed as completely and utterly bananas by most people here in Canada, regardless of people's thoughts around guns and gun control generally.
But, like Mexico, we suffer directly as a result of sharing a land border (more than 5,000 miles in length) with a country that is host to an unhinged gun-worshipping death cult.
As a result, the effectiveness of any new measures will always be diluted by the steady, never-ending supply that cult is hell-bent on maintaining.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 12:23 PM on May 27, 2022 [15 favorites]
It's particularly unsettling in the context of cops who are less smart than a sack of hammers - in a sort of parallel to what's emerging about the police response in Uvalde, there's currently a public inquiry underway into the 2020 Portapique massacre.
This has emerged:
Yesterday, retired RCMP Staff Sergeant Al Carroll testified via Zoom at the Mass Casualty Commission (MCC), the public inquiry into the mass murders of April 18/19, 2020.
Through his questioning of Carroll, MCC lawyer Roger Burrill aptly laid out how a series of cascading policing errors built upon each other such that the killer was able to escape Portapique long before midnight, and that possibility wasn’t fully appreciated until Lillian Campbell was killed in Wentworth at 9:30 the next morning.
[...]
It was in the early hours of April 19 when Carroll and Staff Sergeant Addie MacCallum were at the Bible Hill detachment trying to look at maps. I say “trying” because they didn’t have reliable maps — at one point MacCallum pulled out a road atlas. Carroll explained that MacCallum pulled up various maps — he thought it was Google Maps or Google Earth — on the computer, and he was looking over MacCallum’s shoulder. Carroll explained that he wasn’t very good at computers.
They didn't know how to use maps.
But there's also the problem that most of the guns the shooter had originated from the U.S., and he was illegally in possession of them (this had been reported to the police well in advance of his rampage, but they...didn't bother to investigate).
Canada has fairly reasonable restrictions on firearms (I'd argue they could be tighter, but that's a whole other discussion), in addition to strict rules around storing and transporting them. Portapique also resulted in further gun control legislation. Debates as to its merits aside, it's at least a legislative response that seeks to at least do something, like the responses to Dunblane, Christchurch, and École Polytechnique, to name a few.
Even if these measures help only somewhat, they beat the hell out of thoughts and prayers any day of the week.
Anecdotally speaking, I'd say that things like open carry are generally viewed as completely and utterly bananas by most people here in Canada, regardless of people's thoughts around guns and gun control generally.
But, like Mexico, we suffer directly as a result of sharing a land border (more than 5,000 miles in length) with a country that is host to an unhinged gun-worshipping death cult.
As a result, the effectiveness of any new measures will always be diluted by the steady, never-ending supply that cult is hell-bent on maintaining.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 12:23 PM on May 27, 2022 [15 favorites]
So, some online searches and now I am wondering about ammunition primers.
It's not just that lead styphenate and lead peroxide are, well, lead compounds. It's that synthesizing them is beyond the abilities of home labs. Same with the antimony and barium compounds that come into primer.
So what happens if the chemical industry voluntarily or "voluntarily" restricts access to these?
Older ammunition primers are less reliable. Put those in a round for a semi-auto rifle, and you get a lot more semi, a lot less auto. And probably a lot more fouling of the barrel.
posted by ocschwar at 12:40 PM on May 27, 2022 [3 favorites]
It's not just that lead styphenate and lead peroxide are, well, lead compounds. It's that synthesizing them is beyond the abilities of home labs. Same with the antimony and barium compounds that come into primer.
So what happens if the chemical industry voluntarily or "voluntarily" restricts access to these?
Older ammunition primers are less reliable. Put those in a round for a semi-auto rifle, and you get a lot more semi, a lot less auto. And probably a lot more fouling of the barrel.
posted by ocschwar at 12:40 PM on May 27, 2022 [3 favorites]
Has there been talk of a general strike in the US over gun control in the past few days? Isn't this something that those who were able to could actually get behind with less hesitation than they would have over any other issue?
posted by kitcat at 12:43 PM on May 27, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by kitcat at 12:43 PM on May 27, 2022 [1 favorite]
So what happens if the chemical industry voluntarily or "voluntarily" restricts access to these?
Take the legislative War-on-Some-Drugs zeal applied to the sale of pseudoephedrine and use it there instead and you might have a plan.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 12:47 PM on May 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
Take the legislative War-on-Some-Drugs zeal applied to the sale of pseudoephedrine and use it there instead and you might have a plan.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 12:47 PM on May 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
There is a time and a place to do what I am about to say......
STOP. INTERVIEWING. BROTHERS. SISTERS. SCHOOLMATES. CLASSMATES. OF. THE. CHILDREN. WHO. WERE. KILLED !!!!!!!!
AND. QUIT. CALLING. THE. DEAD. CHILDREN, BABIES!
In the first, I am watching trauma being extended and anchored in front of my own eyes.
In the second, for some reason, I find this disgusting.....
F**k the media frenzy and all news channels
posted by goalyeehah at 12:54 PM on May 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
STOP. INTERVIEWING. BROTHERS. SISTERS. SCHOOLMATES. CLASSMATES. OF. THE. CHILDREN. WHO. WERE. KILLED !!!!!!!!
AND. QUIT. CALLING. THE. DEAD. CHILDREN, BABIES!
In the first, I am watching trauma being extended and anchored in front of my own eyes.
In the second, for some reason, I find this disgusting.....
F**k the media frenzy and all news channels
posted by goalyeehah at 12:54 PM on May 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
Take the legislative War-on-Some-Drugs zeal applied to the sale of pseudoephedrine and use it there instead and you might have a plan.
So far as I know, there are no lead compounds available over the counter for any consumer purpose. This is one of those scenarios where (to use the right wing cliche) the government's busybodies can send their jackbooted thugs to 10 to 22 board rooms and solve the problem right there and then.
posted by ocschwar at 12:55 PM on May 27, 2022 [1 favorite]
So far as I know, there are no lead compounds available over the counter for any consumer purpose. This is one of those scenarios where (to use the right wing cliche) the government's busybodies can send their jackbooted thugs to 10 to 22 board rooms and solve the problem right there and then.
posted by ocschwar at 12:55 PM on May 27, 2022 [1 favorite]
The annual economic cost of gun violence in the United States is $280 billion. The total annual revenue of the gun and ammunition manufacturers in the US is $20 billion. If Congress can't ban guns because of Second Amendment assholes, they can certainly tax them according to their negative impact. I'm going to contact my representatives and ask them to propose a 1400% sales tax on guns and ammunition, nationally, with proceeds funding healthcare (including mental healthcare) for victims of gun violence. You want to buy a gun or bullets, fine, but you should fucking pay for the mess you're making.
posted by biogeo at 1:00 PM on May 27, 2022 [26 favorites]
posted by biogeo at 1:00 PM on May 27, 2022 [26 favorites]
Thank you, internet. A nice guide to how to make your own ammunition primer.
TLDR: your AR-15 will be ruined if you make your own and you don't clean it religiously.
I don't really want to personally do this because I have neither the money nor the access to a gun range, but I think for under $3000 we can 1. buy a legal AR-15 and take it to a legal range. 2. make our own ammunition with our own prime. and 3. see exactly how many rounds of this ammo we can fire before the rifle is ruined.
I live in MA, and I think I'd have to establish residency in a gun-nut state before exploiting local laws to demonstrate this, but this is doable.
posted by ocschwar at 1:01 PM on May 27, 2022
TLDR: your AR-15 will be ruined if you make your own and you don't clean it religiously.
I don't really want to personally do this because I have neither the money nor the access to a gun range, but I think for under $3000 we can 1. buy a legal AR-15 and take it to a legal range. 2. make our own ammunition with our own prime. and 3. see exactly how many rounds of this ammo we can fire before the rifle is ruined.
I live in MA, and I think I'd have to establish residency in a gun-nut state before exploiting local laws to demonstrate this, but this is doable.
posted by ocschwar at 1:01 PM on May 27, 2022
I don't know if it feels different, but the Republicans seem more scared of defending the gun industry, or the media is more persistent in asking the obvious questions, or the police incompetence is obvious enough to make the "good guy with a gun" fantasies risible. I don't know, but I hope it is different this time.
posted by Gelatin at 1:06 PM on May 27, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by Gelatin at 1:06 PM on May 27, 2022 [3 favorites]
“If they’re shooting at you, they’re not looking at the kids"
posted by goalyeehah at 1:09 PM on May 27, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by goalyeehah at 1:09 PM on May 27, 2022 [5 favorites]
How do 19 cops in a hallway stand around listening to that?
A follow-up (nitter link): ""You say there were 19 officers gathered in the hallway or somewhere. What efforts were made to try and break through that door? You say it was locked. What efforts were the officers making?" The awful answer: "None at that time.""
So what happens if the chemical industry voluntarily or "voluntarily" restricts access to these?
I can't think of any reason offhand that the gun industry couldn't buy the capability to manufacture the stuff themselves if they had to.
posted by BungaDunga at 1:15 PM on May 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
A follow-up (nitter link): ""You say there were 19 officers gathered in the hallway or somewhere. What efforts were made to try and break through that door? You say it was locked. What efforts were the officers making?" The awful answer: "None at that time.""
So what happens if the chemical industry voluntarily or "voluntarily" restricts access to these?
I can't think of any reason offhand that the gun industry couldn't buy the capability to manufacture the stuff themselves if they had to.
posted by BungaDunga at 1:15 PM on May 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
What efforts were the officers making?" The awful answer: "None at that time.""
It's worse:
It's worse:
Sewell Chan, Editor in Chief of The Texas Tribune, reports that police in Texas have admitted that the Uvalde mass shooter was not in fact barricaded inside the elementary school classroom where he killed 19 children.posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 1:22 PM on May 27, 2022 [14 favorites]
I don't know how they expect people to believe they thought he wasn't an active shooter when they also admitted they were hearing shots from inside the classroom.
posted by BungaDunga at 1:35 PM on May 27, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by BungaDunga at 1:35 PM on May 27, 2022 [7 favorites]
The "active shooter" vs "barricaded subject" bullshit makes my blood boil. At least the cops could be honest and say, "we thought he'd finished shooting all the children and it wasn't worth risking our precious skin to try and get medical attention to them in a timely enough fashion that it might have saved a few."
posted by bcd at 1:37 PM on May 27, 2022 [22 favorites]
posted by bcd at 1:37 PM on May 27, 2022 [22 favorites]
The phone calls directly contradict this for a start.
posted by Artw at 1:37 PM on May 27, 2022 [9 favorites]
posted by Artw at 1:37 PM on May 27, 2022 [9 favorites]
I wrote this to my congresswoman (a Democrat):
posted by biogeo at 1:39 PM on May 27, 2022 [42 favorites]
Subject: Please introduce a 1400% sales tax nationally on guns and ammunitionIf anyone wishes to use any of the above as a basis for composing a message to their own representatives, I encourage them to do so.
Dear (congresswoman),
We have watched for decades as gun violence destroys our communities, from mass shootings, to domestic violence, to suicide. The extreme Right has held us all hostage to their outlandish worldview that their Second Amendment right to a "well regulated militia" means that Congress and the States cannot regulate firearms, and activist judges in the courts have supported this bizarre interpretation of the Constitution. The rest of us feel helpless in the face of senseless mass murder of little children, knowing that we are doomed to watch this horrible tragedy play out again and again.
Fifteen years ago, I was a student at Virginia Tech when a lone gunman killed 32 of my classmates before shooting himself. I thought then that perhaps this time, things would change. I was wrong, and I have had to relive the feeling of that horrible day again and again, every few months, when yet another senseless mass shooting happens in America. The gun manufacturers, the fear-mongering culture warriors on conservative media, and craven politicians on the Right have decided that no amount of blood is too high a price for their own wealth, power, and influence, and all too many of our neighbors are willing to go along with them, for whatever misguided reasons.
If Congress is unable to act to ban military-style assault weapons that are used to commit mass murder, I ask that you introduce legislation that will allow Congress to use its power to regulate interstate commerce to solve this problem. Arms manufacturers, sellers, and buyers should not expect the rest of us to pay the cost for their choices. Fair is fair: if they want their guns, they should pay the full price for owning one, including the effect on communities.
The annual economic impact of gun violence in America is estimated to be $280 billion (source: https://everytownresearch.org/report/the-economic-cost-of-gun-violence/). Conversely, the annual revenue of guns and ammunition manufacturers is estimated to be $20 billion (source: https://www.ibisworld.com/industry-statistics/market-size/guns-ammunition-manufacturing-united-states/). I ask you to propose a fund, supported by a sales tax on gun and ammunition sales, that will cover the healthcare costs (including mental healthcare) for victims of gun violence. Based on these numbers, such a sales tax should come to 1400%. A high rate, to be sure, but that is what is necessary to offset the negative impact of gun ownership on our communities.
I am, of course, under no illusions that such a proposal would have any greater immediate success than any other attempts at reining in the out-of-control gun lobby have been over the past decades. But the proposal would send an important message to all Americans: all rights come with responsibilities, and if you believe you have a right to own a gun, that means you have a responsibility to pay for the impact of that decision. And if a 1400% sales tax to cover those costs is too high, then perhaps think again about what costs you're forcing others to bear with your choices.
Thank you for your time. I'm angry and heartbroken at the recent mass shootings, and I am desperate to see some action to change the terrible direction that our country is currently following.
posted by biogeo at 1:39 PM on May 27, 2022 [42 favorites]
Hopefully this isn't a derail but after several days of only hearing worse and worse things I found this to be a breath of fresh air:
--David Hogg (Parkland Survivor and co-Founder of March for our Lives) posted this video on twitter of an impressive crowd protesting the NRA
posted by Jarcat at 1:41 PM on May 27, 2022 [5 favorites]
--David Hogg (Parkland Survivor and co-Founder of March for our Lives) posted this video on twitter of an impressive crowd protesting the NRA
posted by Jarcat at 1:41 PM on May 27, 2022 [5 favorites]
--David Hogg (Parkland Survivor and co-Founder of March for our Lives) posted this video on twitter of an impressive crowd protesting the NRA
Link?
posted by goalyeehah at 1:51 PM on May 27, 2022 [1 favorite]
Link?
posted by goalyeehah at 1:51 PM on May 27, 2022 [1 favorite]
Looks like this link
Yes that is the correct one, thank you kindly Rumple. (I've been lurking/reading metafilter for 15+ years and this was the first time I tried to post an actual link, messed it up somehow).
posted by Jarcat at 1:54 PM on May 27, 2022 [10 favorites]
Yes that is the correct one, thank you kindly Rumple. (I've been lurking/reading metafilter for 15+ years and this was the first time I tried to post an actual link, messed it up somehow).
posted by Jarcat at 1:54 PM on May 27, 2022 [10 favorites]
That's definitely George R. Brown Convention Center in that video. I got there about half an hour after the video was taken, and the crowd was still massive. I think the designated counter-protest area was ceded by the cops to the protesters. There were a few smug convention-going pricks on the other side of Avenida de las Americas, and some MAGA chuds cruising around Discovery Green with Trump flags on their trucks, but overall it was a solidly anti-NRA crowd.
The heat was intense, and will only get worse, so I'm really impressed at the turnout. I'm curious to see how many people come out over the weekend.
The NRA banner for the convention said "Houston '22: 150 years strong". The founding year of the NRA, 1871, also featured prominently. I'm pretty sure that's 151 years, you dumb motherfuckers.
posted by heteronym at 2:00 PM on May 27, 2022 [12 favorites]
The heat was intense, and will only get worse, so I'm really impressed at the turnout. I'm curious to see how many people come out over the weekend.
The NRA banner for the convention said "Houston '22: 150 years strong". The founding year of the NRA, 1871, also featured prominently. I'm pretty sure that's 151 years, you dumb motherfuckers.
posted by heteronym at 2:00 PM on May 27, 2022 [12 favorites]
Massachusetts gun owner here (and raging liberal). You can easily get an AR-15 platform and a 30 round magazine legally here (well, if you have a license). It's not cheap, but you could do it. And its cosmetically modified from something you could get in another state (no folding stock, pinned muzzle, few other things). I'm 100% behind having MA be the blueprint for federal gun control laws, but we need to do more including getting rid of any magazine that holds more than 5 rounds - this means making the existing ones illegal vs. grandfathering them in. And you probably can't get a gun in Cambridge - no guns are allowed within 500 feet of a school and 99.99% of Cambridge is about 50 feet from some school/college/etc. And the Boston PD just won't approve anyone so fewer people own guns in Boston (to my knowledge). And get rid of armor piercing rounds (why do you need them?) and make body armor illegal (why do you need this?). And make insurance mandatory. Or just make guns illegal.
And we need to go down the milita route - every gun owner should yearly be able to demonstrate proper handling of their weapons, proper storage, etc. I mean, if we're going to be originalists let's be originalists. Frankly I'd be afraid to go the the range with 90% of gun owners around here for fear of getting shot accidentally. When I took the legally mandated class to get my license it was clear to me that 80% of the class had never fired a weapon. I've taken training courses where the guy next to me was hitting my target...
If you could convince me we could get rid of 100% of guns in the US, I'd happily give up mine. I have other hobbies to occupy me. Someone said guns are symbols of fear and I couldn't agree more.
posted by Farce_First at 2:03 PM on May 27, 2022 [12 favorites]
And we need to go down the milita route - every gun owner should yearly be able to demonstrate proper handling of their weapons, proper storage, etc. I mean, if we're going to be originalists let's be originalists. Frankly I'd be afraid to go the the range with 90% of gun owners around here for fear of getting shot accidentally. When I took the legally mandated class to get my license it was clear to me that 80% of the class had never fired a weapon. I've taken training courses where the guy next to me was hitting my target...
If you could convince me we could get rid of 100% of guns in the US, I'd happily give up mine. I have other hobbies to occupy me. Someone said guns are symbols of fear and I couldn't agree more.
posted by Farce_First at 2:03 PM on May 27, 2022 [12 favorites]
not in fact barricaded
I will bet hard money right now that the actual situation is none of the cops wanted to be first through the door, because they felt their own lives were more important than those of elementary school children.
posted by corb at 2:24 PM on May 27, 2022 [23 favorites]
I will bet hard money right now that the actual situation is none of the cops wanted to be first through the door, because they felt their own lives were more important than those of elementary school children.
posted by corb at 2:24 PM on May 27, 2022 [23 favorites]
OMFG! Checking the news now that the workweek is over.
Reports now say that kids in the classroom with the killer made multiple calls to 911, identifying which room he/they were in and asking for help.
So, the cops knew there was only one gunman and which room he was in, yet it was over 45 minutes before they did anything.
posted by cheshyre at 2:25 PM on May 27, 2022 [14 favorites]
Reports now say that kids in the classroom with the killer made multiple calls to 911, identifying which room he/they were in and asking for help.
So, the cops knew there was only one gunman and which room he was in, yet it was over 45 minutes before they did anything.
posted by cheshyre at 2:25 PM on May 27, 2022 [14 favorites]
Either cops are glorious white knights riding in on armored steeds to save us lesser beings who can't comprehend their superior reasoning OR they're just a bunch of schlubs who can't be expected to do anything your average citizen wouldn't do. They don't get to have it both ways.
In an ideal world, they're not heroes but they're not schlubs etiher, they are professionals trained to do various aspects of a type of work, which happen to once in a while include a potentially dangerous situations. You cannot react well and make good decisions in stressful situations like this without preparation, visualization, training and taking your job seriously, not just LARPin in your cool SWAT gear once a year. Even when trained they'll still be humans, and some of them will freeze, be scared to death or make poor decisions in situations like this.
And stop the thin blue line bullshit, cops have a place controlling crime but societies get rid of crime not cops.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 2:46 PM on May 27, 2022 [17 favorites]
In an ideal world, they're not heroes but they're not schlubs etiher, they are professionals trained to do various aspects of a type of work, which happen to once in a while include a potentially dangerous situations. You cannot react well and make good decisions in stressful situations like this without preparation, visualization, training and taking your job seriously, not just LARPin in your cool SWAT gear once a year. Even when trained they'll still be humans, and some of them will freeze, be scared to death or make poor decisions in situations like this.
And stop the thin blue line bullshit, cops have a place controlling crime but societies get rid of crime not cops.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 2:46 PM on May 27, 2022 [17 favorites]
make body armor illegal (why do you need this?).
I imagine it's something to do with not wanting to get shot to death
you know, gun violence and all
grouping physical protection against gun violence together with the tools to commit gun violence is an odd choice. you will remember that when the cops said this latest murderer was wearing body armor, they were lying.
there is no legitimate need for a gun, but that's not the reason for banning gun & ammo sales. that's simply the explanation of why none of the arguments against banning gun/ammo sales hold up. the reason we want to ban guns & ammo is because they are tools for maiming and murder and their widespread use ruins and ends lives every day.
if you want to ban something that is associated with people who love weapons but is not itself a weapon, you need a different reason. we do not seek to ban things just because we think nobody needs them, although gun-lovers dearly love to claim that we do. it's one of their only arguments that speaks to people outside their fetish club, and for good reason.
you do not want to make the argument that there's something intrinsically shady about wanting to stay alive in the event somebody shoots you, or that if you're worried about getting shot you probably have it coming. what is important is that people do not have guns. as long as they don't have guns, they can have all the armor they want. perhaps what they need it for is to run from the scene of a bank robbery without being shot dead by police, I don't know. so long as they haven't shot anybody with guns, I am fully in favor of the right of criminals to stay alive until trial and sentencing. so, I would hope, is everyone else.
another reason someone might say they need body armor is because they are a police officer. but I admit this is significantly less compelling than the bank robbery hypothetical.
posted by queenofbithynia at 2:50 PM on May 27, 2022 [3 favorites]
I imagine it's something to do with not wanting to get shot to death
you know, gun violence and all
grouping physical protection against gun violence together with the tools to commit gun violence is an odd choice. you will remember that when the cops said this latest murderer was wearing body armor, they were lying.
there is no legitimate need for a gun, but that's not the reason for banning gun & ammo sales. that's simply the explanation of why none of the arguments against banning gun/ammo sales hold up. the reason we want to ban guns & ammo is because they are tools for maiming and murder and their widespread use ruins and ends lives every day.
if you want to ban something that is associated with people who love weapons but is not itself a weapon, you need a different reason. we do not seek to ban things just because we think nobody needs them, although gun-lovers dearly love to claim that we do. it's one of their only arguments that speaks to people outside their fetish club, and for good reason.
you do not want to make the argument that there's something intrinsically shady about wanting to stay alive in the event somebody shoots you, or that if you're worried about getting shot you probably have it coming. what is important is that people do not have guns. as long as they don't have guns, they can have all the armor they want. perhaps what they need it for is to run from the scene of a bank robbery without being shot dead by police, I don't know. so long as they haven't shot anybody with guns, I am fully in favor of the right of criminals to stay alive until trial and sentencing. so, I would hope, is everyone else.
another reason someone might say they need body armor is because they are a police officer. but I admit this is significantly less compelling than the bank robbery hypothetical.
posted by queenofbithynia at 2:50 PM on May 27, 2022 [3 favorites]
Armor is a weapon. Protection from violence enhances the ability to do violence. A tank without armor isn't a tank. But it is also true that a person in armor, without other weapons, is not especially dangerous. So there are real arguments in favor of restricting sales of armor, but they are not nearly so strong as those for restricting offensive weapons.
posted by agentofselection at 2:57 PM on May 27, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by agentofselection at 2:57 PM on May 27, 2022 [1 favorite]
At least the cops could be honest
I’m gonna stop you right here
posted by rhymedirective at 3:15 PM on May 27, 2022 [25 favorites]
I’m gonna stop you right here
posted by rhymedirective at 3:15 PM on May 27, 2022 [25 favorites]
It looks to me as though a PR person advised them not to have a stage full of white men for Abbott's latest press conference. When Beto showed up a few days ago, there were a sea of them up there. Today we have three women who seem to have been carefully placed to be visible in shots of Abbott speaking.
posted by ruetheday at 3:17 PM on May 27, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by ruetheday at 3:17 PM on May 27, 2022 [5 favorites]
"That NRA supporter was disarmed from that mic real quick."
posted by Rumple at 3:17 PM on May 27, 2022 [10 favorites]
posted by Rumple at 3:17 PM on May 27, 2022 [10 favorites]
Meanwhile at gun shows everywhere. Their blatant disregard for any sort of safety considerations should forfeit all rights immediately.
posted by hydra77 at 3:27 PM on May 27, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by hydra77 at 3:27 PM on May 27, 2022 [4 favorites]
Until we get on the streets and bring the US to a stop, one as dead as the heart of the NRA, nothing will change.
posted by I will not be Heiled at 3:33 PM on May 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by I will not be Heiled at 3:33 PM on May 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
I was just now lying back doomscrolling in my apartment when I heard chanting outside. I went out to see 30 odd grade school age kids holding kid made signs marching on the sidewalk just across 10th Ave E from our property. Their chants were No more guns! and We want Peace! They were accompanied by 3 adults in day-glo green vests but their righteous indignation and enthusiasm were all their own.
See here also.
posted by y2karl at 3:48 PM on May 27, 2022 [25 favorites]
See here also.
posted by y2karl at 3:48 PM on May 27, 2022 [25 favorites]
The gun industry/fandom dug deep into the weeds of the actual, technical, legal, definition of what a "gun" is far enough that they've punched enough loopholes in the law that it's more or less impossible to define "assault rifle"
One gun person I spoke with online posted a many paragraph long technical manifesto all about it and closed with "so you'd have to basically outlaw all semi-automatic weapons if you want to ban 'assault rifles'"
I think he meant that as some sort of gotcha moment where I was supposed to be shamed into silence at the horrifying realization that my evil gun grabber ideals would ban all semi-automatic weapons.
I gave a two letter reply: OK
He never responded.
I'm pretty sure he was if not actually really right at least right enough. Digging into the weeds and trying to actually define "assault rifle" is a sufficiently fraught task (in part due to diligent work by the gun industry) that getting a really effective law passed would require banning all semi-automatic guns.
If so, then fine. Let's do that. When the ammosexuals shriek remind them that they're the ones who brought us to this point and if they hadn't pushed so far we wouldn't have to ban all semi-autos.
posted by sotonohito at 4:08 PM on May 27, 2022 [17 favorites]
One gun person I spoke with online posted a many paragraph long technical manifesto all about it and closed with "so you'd have to basically outlaw all semi-automatic weapons if you want to ban 'assault rifles'"
I think he meant that as some sort of gotcha moment where I was supposed to be shamed into silence at the horrifying realization that my evil gun grabber ideals would ban all semi-automatic weapons.
I gave a two letter reply: OK
He never responded.
I'm pretty sure he was if not actually really right at least right enough. Digging into the weeds and trying to actually define "assault rifle" is a sufficiently fraught task (in part due to diligent work by the gun industry) that getting a really effective law passed would require banning all semi-automatic guns.
If so, then fine. Let's do that. When the ammosexuals shriek remind them that they're the ones who brought us to this point and if they hadn't pushed so far we wouldn't have to ban all semi-autos.
posted by sotonohito at 4:08 PM on May 27, 2022 [17 favorites]
One 11 year old girl described smearing her dead friend's blood on herself, and playing dead. That is how she survived. Thank heavens for her grit.
posted by Oyéah at 4:25 PM on May 27, 2022 [11 favorites]
posted by Oyéah at 4:25 PM on May 27, 2022 [11 favorites]
Yes, banning semi-auto is the least that should be done. Ammo tax, too.
posted by rhizome at 4:39 PM on May 27, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by rhizome at 4:39 PM on May 27, 2022 [4 favorites]
Beau's got a new one regarding bans like these.
posted by bink at 5:10 PM on May 27, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by bink at 5:10 PM on May 27, 2022 [1 favorite]
I'm just watching McCraw's presser right now but I've been reading transcripts all day. How could those cops stand in the hallway, hearing gunshots, and not go in there!!??? Infuriating!
Stop the killing first, then stop the dying.
posted by bendy at 5:13 PM on May 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
Stop the killing first, then stop the dying.
posted by bendy at 5:13 PM on May 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
Beau's got a new one yt regarding bans like these.
There's a SCOTUS justice who has already decided she thinks felons with DV convictions continue to have 2nd-Amendment rights.
And the GOP hardliners have gone so far over that "being a wife-beater" is actually a point of pride.
They cannot be shamed. They cannot be appealed to. They cannot be embarrassed. They can only be run out of town by an exercise of power.
posted by suelac at 5:26 PM on May 27, 2022 [24 favorites]
There's a SCOTUS justice who has already decided she thinks felons with DV convictions continue to have 2nd-Amendment rights.
And the GOP hardliners have gone so far over that "being a wife-beater" is actually a point of pride.
They cannot be shamed. They cannot be appealed to. They cannot be embarrassed. They can only be run out of town by an exercise of power.
posted by suelac at 5:26 PM on May 27, 2022 [24 favorites]
Why not make joining the national guard part of the licensing process for most guns? It's the first thing the amendment says. If you want a gun, you can have one as part of the well regulated militia.
posted by feloniousmonk at 7:35 PM on May 27, 2022 [22 favorites]
posted by feloniousmonk at 7:35 PM on May 27, 2022 [22 favorites]
And we have TFG basically dancing on the graves of those killed.
posted by NoxAeternum at 7:54 PM on May 27, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by NoxAeternum at 7:54 PM on May 27, 2022 [1 favorite]
An interesting thread about the training the Uvalde officers received as recently as two months ago. Their actions in no way live up to what they were trained to do.
The training is clear: Time is of the essence. The “first priority is to move in and confront the attacker.”
“A first responder unwilling to place the lives of the innocent above their own safety should consider another career field."
posted by ericthegardener at 8:07 PM on May 27, 2022 [9 favorites]
The training is clear: Time is of the essence. The “first priority is to move in and confront the attacker.”
“A first responder unwilling to place the lives of the innocent above their own safety should consider another career field."
posted by ericthegardener at 8:07 PM on May 27, 2022 [9 favorites]
And the Uvalde police have called for police protection for themselves and the mayor from the people they are ostensibly sworn to protect.
Reality continues to ride satire like a show pony.
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:07 PM on May 27, 2022 [29 favorites]
Reality continues to ride satire like a show pony.
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:07 PM on May 27, 2022 [29 favorites]
cnn reports that Ramos had been threatening rape and violence to female peers on his social media for some time before the shooting.....but
" he's harmless, he's just socially awkward, just ignore it, boys will be boys" /S
posted by brujita at 8:30 PM on May 27, 2022 [22 favorites]
" he's harmless, he's just socially awkward, just ignore it, boys will be boys" /S
posted by brujita at 8:30 PM on May 27, 2022 [22 favorites]
Jesus, that article is absolutely damning.
Robbins and other users said they didn't take Ramos' comments seriously because troll-like behavior was commonplace on Yubo.posted by corb at 8:58 PM on May 27, 2022 [18 favorites]
Hannah, an 18-year-old Yubo user from Ontario, Canada, said she reported Ramos to Yubo in early April after he threatened to shoot up her school and rape and kill her and her mother during one livestream session. Hannah said Ramos was allowed back on the platform after a temporary ban.
watching McCraw's presser
"Every time we have one of these..."
posted by bendy at 11:01 PM on May 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
"Every time we have one of these..."
posted by bendy at 11:01 PM on May 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
Slate has a pretty good summary of the presser, as well as a timeline that (for me, at least) answered some of the questions that have been unanswered. (i.e. how did the murderer get in? why so long before entering the school? and then why so long before entering the classroom?)
Reading it made me feel even worse about what happened, but answered some gnawing questions.
eta: open link in incognito mode if you hit the paywall
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 4:52 AM on May 28, 2022 [7 favorites]
Reading it made me feel even worse about what happened, but answered some gnawing questions.
eta: open link in incognito mode if you hit the paywall
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 4:52 AM on May 28, 2022 [7 favorites]
Someone pointed out that this event clearly debunks the NRA talking point that "the only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
posted by cheshyre at 6:25 AM on May 28, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by cheshyre at 6:25 AM on May 28, 2022 [7 favorites]
Well Cruz lately is saying "*ultimately* the only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun…" as if that's someone meaningful. It's the "it could have been worse" crutch.
How about prevention and reducing the number of good guys we ultimately need?
posted by mazola at 7:43 AM on May 28, 2022 [1 favorite]
How about prevention and reducing the number of good guys we ultimately need?
posted by mazola at 7:43 AM on May 28, 2022 [1 favorite]
An interesting thread about the training the Uvalde officers received as recently as two months ago. Their actions in no way live up to what they were trained to do.
Recurring theme in police reform threads: cop training is basically a day off regular duty and some new toys.
posted by Artw at 8:55 AM on May 28, 2022 [8 favorites]
Recurring theme in police reform threads: cop training is basically a day off regular duty and some new toys.
posted by Artw at 8:55 AM on May 28, 2022 [8 favorites]
Trump parroting the NRA:
> He said: “Every time a disturbed or demented person commits a hideous crime there is always a grotesque effort by some in our society to advance their own extreme political agenda.”
> [He] called for the overhauling of school security and the nation’s approach to mental health, telling the group every school building should have a single point of entry, strong exterior fencing, metal detectors and hardened classroom doors, and every school should have a police officer or armed guard on duty at all times.
> He also called yet again for trained teachers to be able to carry concealed weapons in the classroom.
posted by urbanwhaleshark at 9:09 AM on May 28, 2022 [2 favorites]
> He said: “Every time a disturbed or demented person commits a hideous crime there is always a grotesque effort by some in our society to advance their own extreme political agenda.”
> [He] called for the overhauling of school security and the nation’s approach to mental health, telling the group every school building should have a single point of entry, strong exterior fencing, metal detectors and hardened classroom doors, and every school should have a police officer or armed guard on duty at all times.
> He also called yet again for trained teachers to be able to carry concealed weapons in the classroom.
posted by urbanwhaleshark at 9:09 AM on May 28, 2022 [2 favorites]
He also called yet again for trained teachers to be able to carry concealed weapons in the classroom.
Well the school resource officer mistook a teacher for the gunman, and if the teacher had a gun would certainly have been killed.
posted by rhizome at 11:07 AM on May 28, 2022 [13 favorites]
Well the school resource officer mistook a teacher for the gunman, and if the teacher had a gun would certainly have been killed.
posted by rhizome at 11:07 AM on May 28, 2022 [13 favorites]
i guess this little cutesy cloying meme is the response some people have to this (cw - the utter insensitivity of this is appalling, even though it's just kids playing) - this is part of the mentality we are dealing with
the cynicism of the manipulation here is sickening
posted by pyramid termite at 2:55 PM on May 28, 2022 [11 favorites]
the cynicism of the manipulation here is sickening
posted by pyramid termite at 2:55 PM on May 28, 2022 [11 favorites]
If we're not going to have gun control in this country, I have a list of other things we should start doing:
If it's not already the procedure, I think teachers who die defending their students need to be given -- if their loved ones want it -- the same kinds of funerals police officers and other first responders who die in the line of duty receive. Bagpipes playing Amazing Grace, attendance by mayors and governors and state legislators and members of Congress.
Let's have a national monument in DC with the names of all the people killed in mass shootings at schools, supermarkets, places of worship, and workplaces. Once it's built, let's draw attention to the fact that unlike the other national monuments honoring the fallen, we had to make it expandable and modifiable because we'll need to add dozens of names to it every month. Once it's built, let's put pressure on politicians, especially asshole NRA-funded Republicans, to lay a wreath on it every year.
Related to that, let's have a yearly national day of mourning for all the people who die because we can't have reasonable gun control laws in this country.
Let's send white feathers to every police officer who does nothing when these mass murders occur.
Republicans want the 10 Commandments in front of various government buildings? Fine, let's also put smaller versions of the national shooting victim monument in front of them as well. And in front of every gun shop and shooting range and gun show.
Let's start doing something.
posted by lord_wolf at 3:07 PM on May 28, 2022 [19 favorites]
If it's not already the procedure, I think teachers who die defending their students need to be given -- if their loved ones want it -- the same kinds of funerals police officers and other first responders who die in the line of duty receive. Bagpipes playing Amazing Grace, attendance by mayors and governors and state legislators and members of Congress.
Let's have a national monument in DC with the names of all the people killed in mass shootings at schools, supermarkets, places of worship, and workplaces. Once it's built, let's draw attention to the fact that unlike the other national monuments honoring the fallen, we had to make it expandable and modifiable because we'll need to add dozens of names to it every month. Once it's built, let's put pressure on politicians, especially asshole NRA-funded Republicans, to lay a wreath on it every year.
Related to that, let's have a yearly national day of mourning for all the people who die because we can't have reasonable gun control laws in this country.
Let's send white feathers to every police officer who does nothing when these mass murders occur.
Republicans want the 10 Commandments in front of various government buildings? Fine, let's also put smaller versions of the national shooting victim monument in front of them as well. And in front of every gun shop and shooting range and gun show.
Let's start doing something.
posted by lord_wolf at 3:07 PM on May 28, 2022 [19 favorites]
Some states already have gun violence memorials. Here is NY State.
posted by tiny frying pan at 3:21 PM on May 28, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by tiny frying pan at 3:21 PM on May 28, 2022 [3 favorites]
If we're not going to have gun control in this country, I have a list of other things we should start doing:
gun control is considerably more important.
Once it's built, let's put pressure on politicians, especially asshole NRA-funded Republicans, to lay a wreath on it every year.
no, let's put intolerable, unbearable pressure on all politicians to enact gun control.
the idea is for them to have a hard time coping with what they thought would be a short-term flash of outrage by making sure it outlasts just this year's spring & summer news cycles. making a big show of conceding a fight you're sure you'll lose does not seem very useful to me. monuments do not seem very useful to me. hypothetical, rhetorical monument planning seems least useful of all.
to me.
posted by queenofbithynia at 3:49 PM on May 28, 2022 [3 favorites]
I think teachers who die defending their students need to be given -- if their loved ones want it -- the same kinds of funerals police officers and other first responders who die in the line of duty receive. Bagpipes playing Amazing Grace, attendance by mayors and governors and state legislators and members of Congress.
Speaking as a brand new teacher, I say to hell with that.
If I die in a school shooting (let’s be honest it’s extremely unlikely), I don’t want a funeral attended by dignitaries and pomp and circumstance and whatnot.
I want a protest on the steps of the statehouse. Loud and angry, please.
posted by Big Al 8000 at 6:45 PM on May 28, 2022 [39 favorites]
Speaking as a brand new teacher, I say to hell with that.
If I die in a school shooting (let’s be honest it’s extremely unlikely), I don’t want a funeral attended by dignitaries and pomp and circumstance and whatnot.
I want a protest on the steps of the statehouse. Loud and angry, please.
posted by Big Al 8000 at 6:45 PM on May 28, 2022 [39 favorites]
My take on the whole idea of monuments, ceremonies, etc. is that ideally it would drive home to legislators just what a fucked-up situation we're in and motivate them to try to change things. That having to lay a wreath on the Tomb of the Unknown Kindergartener in front of a crowd of reporters would make them think, "My God, what depths have we sunk to?"
Unfortunately, I don't think any of the people who are standing in the way of sane and rational gun control laws are capable of that kind of shame and self-reflection. I think anyone who's capable of the kind of remorse that's needed would be sufficiently affected just by looking at the facts. (It's like the phenomenon that the kind of people who are moved to sympathy by those ASPCA ads with the Sarah McLachlan song are the people who are already doing what they can to help animals, and the people who don't already want to help suffering animals aren't going to be affected by the advertisements.)
posted by The Underpants Monster at 9:44 PM on May 28, 2022 [5 favorites]
Unfortunately, I don't think any of the people who are standing in the way of sane and rational gun control laws are capable of that kind of shame and self-reflection. I think anyone who's capable of the kind of remorse that's needed would be sufficiently affected just by looking at the facts. (It's like the phenomenon that the kind of people who are moved to sympathy by those ASPCA ads with the Sarah McLachlan song are the people who are already doing what they can to help animals, and the people who don't already want to help suffering animals aren't going to be affected by the advertisements.)
posted by The Underpants Monster at 9:44 PM on May 28, 2022 [5 favorites]
Giffords Law Center To Prevent Gun Violence* > Browse State Gun Laws:
*Co-founded by Gabby Giffords (Wikipedia bio).
posted by cenoxo at 5:29 AM on May 29, 2022 [14 favorites]
EVERY ISSUE, EVERY STATEThe Uvalde School Shooting Underscores Texas’s Terrible Gun Laws, Giffords Law Center blog, Sophie Durham, May 26, 2022:
As the gun lobby continues to block progress in Washington, states are taking action to make their communities safer. The research is clear: states with stronger gun laws have less gun violence. Our gun law library provides a comprehensive overview of gun laws and regulations in every state in the nation. Use the menus below to filter by state and policy area to find specific laws...
… Texas has some of the worst gun laws in the country. It consistently scores an F on Giffords Law Center’s Annual Gun Law Scorecard. Just last June, Governor Greg Abbott signed a dangerous permitless carry bill into law—against the advice of leading law enforcement agencies—allowing anyone 21 years or older to carry a handgun in public without a permit or training. NRA leader Wayne LaPierre sat by his side at the signing ceremony.Details at Texas Gun Laws.
Four of the 10 deadliest mass shootings in modern US history have happened in Texas [infographic], and now Robb Elementary has a place on that list. Gun homicides overall have increased steadily in Texas over the last decade, rising over 90% from 2011 to 2020. And we know the problem: Texas’s weak gun laws allow dangerous individuals to easily acquire deadly weapons….
*Co-founded by Gabby Giffords (Wikipedia bio).
posted by cenoxo at 5:29 AM on May 29, 2022 [14 favorites]
Let's send white feathers to every police officer who does nothing when these mass murders occur.
I get what you mean with this, but it's likely it would send the police a different and unintentional message:
I get what you mean with this, but it's likely it would send the police a different and unintentional message:
In the United States, the white feather has also become a symbol of courage, persistence, and superior combat marksmanship. Its most notable wearer was US Marine Corps Gunnery Sergeant Carlos Hathcock, who was awarded the Silver Star medal for bravery during the Vietnam War. Hathcock picked up a white feather on a mission and wore it in his hat to taunt the enemy. (Wikipedia)posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:56 AM on May 29, 2022 [9 favorites]
>>Let's send white feathers to every police officer who does nothing when these mass murders occur.
>I get what you mean with this
Maybe the coffee hasn't kicked in yet, but I'm not catching the reference. For the sleep deprived, can we have it spelled out a little more explicitly?
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 7:22 AM on May 29, 2022
>I get what you mean with this
Maybe the coffee hasn't kicked in yet, but I'm not catching the reference. For the sleep deprived, can we have it spelled out a little more explicitly?
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 7:22 AM on May 29, 2022
Thanks! Being such common words and not knowing the intent, I figured it would be a long time down the rabbit hole before I figured it out.
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 9:54 AM on May 29, 2022
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 9:54 AM on May 29, 2022
As described in Wikipedia, any proposed federal gun control laws will face entrenched firing lines of state and local Second Amendment sanctuary laws [see reference links in the article]:
posted by cenoxo at 12:47 PM on May 29, 2022 [2 favorites]
…also known as a gun sanctuary, [this] refers to states, counties, or localities in the United States that have adopted laws or resolutions to prohibit or impede the enforcement of certain gun control measures perceived as violative of the Second Amendment such as universal gun background checks, high capacity magazine bans, assault weapon bans, red flag laws, etc.[1][2]See the WP article’s Table of Contents for a list of states and counties who have enacted similar anti-gun control measures. There’s also a simplified USA map near the top of the article showing counties (green), states (blue), or both (purple) with Second Amendment sanctuary (or other pro-Second Amendment) laws or resolutions as of March 2, 2020.
Examples of the resolutions include the Second Amendment Preservation Ordinance in Oregon[7] and the Second Amendment Protection Act in Kansas.[8] The term "sanctuary" draws its inspiration from the immigration sanctuary cities movement of jurisdictions that have resolved to not assist federal enforcement of immigration laws against illegal aliens.[5][9][10][11]
…
Texas [for example]
On June 16, 2021, Governor Greg Abbott signed the Second Amendment Sanctuary Act (87(R) HB 2622). The Act went into effect September 1, 2021, and prohibits Texas agencies from assisting the federal government in enforcing federal gun-control laws passed after January 19, 2021. The text of the Act can be read here.[24] [Direct link to text, here’s a simplified excerpt:]…Notwithstanding any other law, an agency of this state, a political subdivision of this state, or a law enforcement officer or other person employed by an agency of this state or a political subdivision of this state may not contract with or in any other manner provide assistance to a federal agency or official with respect to the enforcement of a federal statute, order, rule, or regulation that:
(1) imposes a prohibition, restriction, or other regulation that does not exist under the laws of this state; and (2) relates to:
(A) a registry requirement for a firearm, a firearm accessory, or ammunition;
(B) a requirement that an owner of a firearm, a firearm accessory, or ammunition possess a license as a condition of owning, possessing, or carrying the firearm, firearm accessory, or ammunition;
(C) a requirement that a background check be conducted for the private sale or transfer of a firearm, a firearm accessory, or ammunition;
(D) a program for confiscating a firearm, a firearm accessory, or ammunition from a person who is not otherwise prohibited by the laws of this state from possessing the firearm, firearm accessory, or ammunition; or
(E) a program that requires an owner of a firearm, a firearm accessory, or ammunition to sell the firearm, firearm accessory, or ammunition….
posted by cenoxo at 12:47 PM on May 29, 2022 [2 favorites]
The law is what the people say it is, at its base. I say ban semi-auto and institute a massive ammo tax, perhaps that goes to a victim's fund. Others say repeal the 2nd Amendment, which as I linked above was added to the Constitution by slaveholders to protect their desire to murder black people without consequence.
These can be accomplished. The 2nd Amendment can be whittled down, just like the 4th and 8th have been.
posted by rhizome at 12:56 PM on May 29, 2022 [2 favorites]
These can be accomplished. The 2nd Amendment can be whittled down, just like the 4th and 8th have been.
posted by rhizome at 12:56 PM on May 29, 2022 [2 favorites]
All the Constitutional stuff is a farce. It's truly not worth taking seriously. All the same people who claim the text of the Second Amendment (which explicitly refers to regulation) cannot permit regulation of guns are the same people who support, e.g., restrictions on pornography (which nothing in the text of the First Amendment permits). It doesn't make sense, and it doesn't make sense blatantly, obviously, on the surface. The claim that the Constitution forbids the government from regulating how guns are stored in the home and, at the same time, allows the government to ban porn, is nothing more than a naked exercise of power. There is no need to get rid of the Second Amendment, only the judges who are abusing their power to interpret it.
posted by prefpara at 1:57 PM on May 29, 2022 [16 favorites]
posted by prefpara at 1:57 PM on May 29, 2022 [16 favorites]
Alternatively, it's the judges and bad-faith politicians abusing their power who have necessitated getting rid of the Second Amendment. Ten years ago, if you'd asked me if we should abolish the Second Amendment, I would have answered like you, even after having watched my friends mourn the murder of their loved ones in classrooms at Virginia Tech. Now? If the law of the land is that the Second Amendment prevents any sensible gun control, then our only option is to remove the Second Amendment. I'd be happy to let the gun nuts have their guns under a rational system of regulations, but since they've insisted that that's not possible, then repeal should be the counter-offer. Move the Overton Window. Either they can pull back from their farcical "interpretation" of the obvious text of the Second Amendment, or they risk losing it entirely.
posted by biogeo at 2:08 PM on May 29, 2022 [14 favorites]
posted by biogeo at 2:08 PM on May 29, 2022 [14 favorites]
"By cowardice I do not mean fear. Cowardice is a label we reserve for something a man does. What passes through his mind is his own affair."
~~~ Lord Moran
~~~ "The Anatomy of Courage"
Every one of those law enforcement officers are straight-up cowards. Every one of them needs to be prosecuted, dereliction of duty (I'm not a lawyer, surely there are legal eagles here who can put in whatever words fit for "dereliction of duty"). Every one of them should never, ever be allowed to own a weapon, much less carry a weapon. Ever. Jail time for them works just fine for me.
~~~~~
Moran, who wrote "The Anatomy Of Courage" , he was a man who was courageous. He ran straight into the bullets and gas shells and artillery in his military service in WW1. He wrote the text, enlarged upon it during WW2. He details what makes a human being run into unbelievable danger, running into almost certain death rather than hiding.
~~~~~
I just finished (audible) listening to "War", a great book written by Sebastian Junger which he wrote after 15 months embedded with Airborne Division (paratroopers) soldiers in the Korengal Valley, in Afghanistan in 2007 and 2008. The Korengal Valley had the most action, the hottest hot spot in Afghanistan, the company of men he was with were the tip of the spear. The men he was embedded with had been together from the time they entered paratrooper training; it turns out that being with your fellows creates a glue that is unbelievable, each of them gladly willing to run out into bullets and grenades to rescue one of your team. Even if you happen to hate him. And he will do the same for you. Honestly, it is a kind of love, binds deeper than family, deeper than marriage. Knowing that you are with your people in this type of situation breeds courage.
I've also seen both videos that Junger put together in his time in the Korengal Valley, I cannot recommend it highly enough. Junger goes deep on The Anatomy Of Courage, and on any other literature he could find. What a writer. Anyways, being that I just spent a week with that book, it's given me the words: those cops are straight-up cowards.
~~~~~
Would I have the courage to face into what these cowards in Uvaalde did not face into? I do not know. I don't think anyone knows until it's in your face, until it's your turn. But these cops have committed to us that they would do so. They have had every training that there is, one training just a couple of months ago. That's not a guarantee but it gives them a chance to walk tall.
~~~~~
Perhaps the most courageous human being that I know of was the woman who was the principal at that grade school in Sandy Hook. What a spectacular human being she was. She ran straight into her death, perhaps hoping that she could somehow make it to the murderer before he killed her. Every one of the cowards at Uvalde should have her image tattooed on his forehead, with the words "This woman was courageous. She is a hero of the highest degree. Myself, I am a coward."
~~~~~
Uvalde is a small town. They don't have a lot of cash to take care of the things which need to be taken care of. I read last night -- and I cannot find the link, damnit -- I read how much their budget is, and how much of it was allotted for law enforcement. Of *course* they have a SWAT team, including a expensive SWAT truck.
~~~~
Taking assault rifles off the street is not the answer. Limiting the size magazine, how many bullets -- no one needs more than six goddamn bullets to take down a deer, or a wild pig, or whatever else they are hunting. Assault rifles do in fact tear human beings up, and, depending on your body armor, it can blow right through it. But -- that's the exact same bullets that would be used in any other rifle, if it's being used for relatively small game. If you're after elk, moose, bears -- unless you're insane you're going to use a much heavier bullet with one hell of a lot more powder behind it. Point being, assault rifles are the symbol but there's more to it than just that.
How many bullets do you need in your pistol? A pretty much standard Glock 9MM has 19 shots, and that is with the clip that comes with it. Anybody can buy larger capacity clips for pretty much any semiautomatic pistol. But really, if you've got 19 shots, push a button, drop that empty clip and pop in a new one, 18 more shots, faster than it took me to write that. And then drop that clip and put in another, on and on.
So it's not "just" assault rifles. Pistols can easy be stuffed into your jeans, with extra clips in your pockets. Depending upon the situation, pistols can be more dangerous than rifles, sortof hard to poke a rifle out your car window and shoot everything you see but with a pistol it's easy as hell.
No one -- absolutely no one -- needs a pistol with more than six shots in the clip. They're death machines. I've not read this thread all the way but I've not seen anything much other than AR-15!!! AR-15!!! That's the barest beginning. It's a symbol but it's damn sure not the solution.
~~~~~
I love guns. I've owned guns, I've shot guns for most of my life. i currently own a .22 rifle and a .44 magnum revolver. I load my own bullets for the .44, almost a necessity for a man not made of money -- .44 bullets are expensive. (Most bullets are pricey, other than .22 and also 9MM.) Another reason I load my own ammo for that .44 -- I have experimented with different powders, with different bullets, I know what is best for my revolver; I am a damn good shot with my own bullets.
For years I never drove without a pistol in my pickup. I'm in Texas, many people are armed, I was one of them. I quit after Sandy Hook. Sandy Hook made me feel physically sick, it was so goddamned horrible. Is, it is so goddamned horrible. I just had to leave that pistol at home. Now, traveling, I feel naked, like a crab that's molted and hasn't yet got a new shell. Especially at night, especially in Houston -- I feel naked. I know Houston. I love Houston but also I know Houston; it's just totally random. I feel naked there.
~~~~~
Guns are unbelievably dangerous. I mean, yeah, duh. But you're going to make a mistake. You just are. You must always know your backstop, and in the desert in Arizona one pretty afternoon I had a great back stop, a big hill. Except -- whoops! I shot that .357 and it hit a rock buried in that hill and came flaring back my direction, it hit one of those really tough desert pine and lopped a branch easy as snapping your fingers, it could have gone any direction. A mistake. A friend and I were shooting, he was seated on the ground, aiming that rifle downrange, his two year old daughter walked directly in front of him, pure luck that child didn't get killed. I was handling a Thompson .45 machine gun, no clip, unloaded, except it wasn't unloaded, it had a bullet in the chamber. That bullet hit the concrete floor then smashed into a cassette deck, knocked it across the room.
Guns are dangerous.
~~~~~
I don't know the answer. Register every gun? Register every clip? Register every box of bullets? Charge people a thousand dollars to own a gun? Good luck with any of those. And with so many guns already "out there" it would be 25 years before the insanity beg ins to go down.
One very good, very real feel is in the air, I love that these piece of shit pols are being confronted as they eat, anywhere they go they'll run into real fury. Such a positive thing -- there is much less helplessness in the air behind this one. People are furious -- people have always been furious -- people are furious and this time they're screaming. I love it.
It's going to take that, sustained, and any time one of these pieces of garbage come up with "thoughts and prayers" they need kicked in the crotch, need to be told straight-up to go fuck themselves. It seems to me that trumpy energy is fading down, maybe, just maybe we can turn this ship of state a few degrees.
posted by dancestoblue at 5:22 PM on May 29, 2022 [12 favorites]
~~~ Lord Moran
~~~ "The Anatomy of Courage"
Every one of those law enforcement officers are straight-up cowards. Every one of them needs to be prosecuted, dereliction of duty (I'm not a lawyer, surely there are legal eagles here who can put in whatever words fit for "dereliction of duty"). Every one of them should never, ever be allowed to own a weapon, much less carry a weapon. Ever. Jail time for them works just fine for me.
~~~~~
Moran, who wrote "The Anatomy Of Courage" , he was a man who was courageous. He ran straight into the bullets and gas shells and artillery in his military service in WW1. He wrote the text, enlarged upon it during WW2. He details what makes a human being run into unbelievable danger, running into almost certain death rather than hiding.
~~~~~
I just finished (audible) listening to "War", a great book written by Sebastian Junger which he wrote after 15 months embedded with Airborne Division (paratroopers) soldiers in the Korengal Valley, in Afghanistan in 2007 and 2008. The Korengal Valley had the most action, the hottest hot spot in Afghanistan, the company of men he was with were the tip of the spear. The men he was embedded with had been together from the time they entered paratrooper training; it turns out that being with your fellows creates a glue that is unbelievable, each of them gladly willing to run out into bullets and grenades to rescue one of your team. Even if you happen to hate him. And he will do the same for you. Honestly, it is a kind of love, binds deeper than family, deeper than marriage. Knowing that you are with your people in this type of situation breeds courage.
I've also seen both videos that Junger put together in his time in the Korengal Valley, I cannot recommend it highly enough. Junger goes deep on The Anatomy Of Courage, and on any other literature he could find. What a writer. Anyways, being that I just spent a week with that book, it's given me the words: those cops are straight-up cowards.
~~~~~
Would I have the courage to face into what these cowards in Uvaalde did not face into? I do not know. I don't think anyone knows until it's in your face, until it's your turn. But these cops have committed to us that they would do so. They have had every training that there is, one training just a couple of months ago. That's not a guarantee but it gives them a chance to walk tall.
~~~~~
Perhaps the most courageous human being that I know of was the woman who was the principal at that grade school in Sandy Hook. What a spectacular human being she was. She ran straight into her death, perhaps hoping that she could somehow make it to the murderer before he killed her. Every one of the cowards at Uvalde should have her image tattooed on his forehead, with the words "This woman was courageous. She is a hero of the highest degree. Myself, I am a coward."
~~~~~
Uvalde is a small town. They don't have a lot of cash to take care of the things which need to be taken care of. I read last night -- and I cannot find the link, damnit -- I read how much their budget is, and how much of it was allotted for law enforcement. Of *course* they have a SWAT team, including a expensive SWAT truck.
~~~~
Taking assault rifles off the street is not the answer. Limiting the size magazine, how many bullets -- no one needs more than six goddamn bullets to take down a deer, or a wild pig, or whatever else they are hunting. Assault rifles do in fact tear human beings up, and, depending on your body armor, it can blow right through it. But -- that's the exact same bullets that would be used in any other rifle, if it's being used for relatively small game. If you're after elk, moose, bears -- unless you're insane you're going to use a much heavier bullet with one hell of a lot more powder behind it. Point being, assault rifles are the symbol but there's more to it than just that.
How many bullets do you need in your pistol? A pretty much standard Glock 9MM has 19 shots, and that is with the clip that comes with it. Anybody can buy larger capacity clips for pretty much any semiautomatic pistol. But really, if you've got 19 shots, push a button, drop that empty clip and pop in a new one, 18 more shots, faster than it took me to write that. And then drop that clip and put in another, on and on.
So it's not "just" assault rifles. Pistols can easy be stuffed into your jeans, with extra clips in your pockets. Depending upon the situation, pistols can be more dangerous than rifles, sortof hard to poke a rifle out your car window and shoot everything you see but with a pistol it's easy as hell.
No one -- absolutely no one -- needs a pistol with more than six shots in the clip. They're death machines. I've not read this thread all the way but I've not seen anything much other than AR-15!!! AR-15!!! That's the barest beginning. It's a symbol but it's damn sure not the solution.
~~~~~
I love guns. I've owned guns, I've shot guns for most of my life. i currently own a .22 rifle and a .44 magnum revolver. I load my own bullets for the .44, almost a necessity for a man not made of money -- .44 bullets are expensive. (Most bullets are pricey, other than .22 and also 9MM.) Another reason I load my own ammo for that .44 -- I have experimented with different powders, with different bullets, I know what is best for my revolver; I am a damn good shot with my own bullets.
For years I never drove without a pistol in my pickup. I'm in Texas, many people are armed, I was one of them. I quit after Sandy Hook. Sandy Hook made me feel physically sick, it was so goddamned horrible. Is, it is so goddamned horrible. I just had to leave that pistol at home. Now, traveling, I feel naked, like a crab that's molted and hasn't yet got a new shell. Especially at night, especially in Houston -- I feel naked. I know Houston. I love Houston but also I know Houston; it's just totally random. I feel naked there.
~~~~~
Guns are unbelievably dangerous. I mean, yeah, duh. But you're going to make a mistake. You just are. You must always know your backstop, and in the desert in Arizona one pretty afternoon I had a great back stop, a big hill. Except -- whoops! I shot that .357 and it hit a rock buried in that hill and came flaring back my direction, it hit one of those really tough desert pine and lopped a branch easy as snapping your fingers, it could have gone any direction. A mistake. A friend and I were shooting, he was seated on the ground, aiming that rifle downrange, his two year old daughter walked directly in front of him, pure luck that child didn't get killed. I was handling a Thompson .45 machine gun, no clip, unloaded, except it wasn't unloaded, it had a bullet in the chamber. That bullet hit the concrete floor then smashed into a cassette deck, knocked it across the room.
Guns are dangerous.
~~~~~
I don't know the answer. Register every gun? Register every clip? Register every box of bullets? Charge people a thousand dollars to own a gun? Good luck with any of those. And with so many guns already "out there" it would be 25 years before the insanity beg ins to go down.
One very good, very real feel is in the air, I love that these piece of shit pols are being confronted as they eat, anywhere they go they'll run into real fury. Such a positive thing -- there is much less helplessness in the air behind this one. People are furious -- people have always been furious -- people are furious and this time they're screaming. I love it.
It's going to take that, sustained, and any time one of these pieces of garbage come up with "thoughts and prayers" they need kicked in the crotch, need to be told straight-up to go fuck themselves. It seems to me that trumpy energy is fading down, maybe, just maybe we can turn this ship of state a few degrees.
posted by dancestoblue at 5:22 PM on May 29, 2022 [12 favorites]
And with so many guns already "out there" it would be 25 years before the insanity beg ins to go down.
Cool. We start today and the next generation can live without the threat of school shootings.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 5:35 PM on May 29, 2022 [25 favorites]
Cool. We start today and the next generation can live without the threat of school shootings.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 5:35 PM on May 29, 2022 [25 favorites]
I’ve had a similar thought process as you, dancestoblue.
But then I thought, how do they train people to reliably run into bullets? They get them at 18 before their brains develop, brainwash them, dehumanize them (and their expected opposition even more), build them into reliable killers, then throw them away.
Cops are bad enough without that kind of training. But what alternative kind of training is there?
The teacher who ran into bullets - that was not from training. Some people will do that without training, others could never be trained enough to do that.
I had an experience in a waiting room at a clinic where a guy snapped and grabbed a doctor and started to gouge his eyes out. Without thinking in any way I grabbed that guy and lifted him out of there and put him in a headlock n the ground so fast I was legitimately surprised to find myself there. (Then the security guys showed up and made me let him go).
Anyway I think the training that would be required would be worse than the cure. However I do think a long term cultural process of reinventing cop culture so they don’t see themselves as paramilitaries whose funeral should be a parade would be good. Take away their vests and APCs and paradoxically I think they would find more courage in the moment.
posted by Rumple at 5:39 PM on May 29, 2022 [5 favorites]
But then I thought, how do they train people to reliably run into bullets? They get them at 18 before their brains develop, brainwash them, dehumanize them (and their expected opposition even more), build them into reliable killers, then throw them away.
Cops are bad enough without that kind of training. But what alternative kind of training is there?
The teacher who ran into bullets - that was not from training. Some people will do that without training, others could never be trained enough to do that.
I had an experience in a waiting room at a clinic where a guy snapped and grabbed a doctor and started to gouge his eyes out. Without thinking in any way I grabbed that guy and lifted him out of there and put him in a headlock n the ground so fast I was legitimately surprised to find myself there. (Then the security guys showed up and made me let him go).
Anyway I think the training that would be required would be worse than the cure. However I do think a long term cultural process of reinventing cop culture so they don’t see themselves as paramilitaries whose funeral should be a parade would be good. Take away their vests and APCs and paradoxically I think they would find more courage in the moment.
posted by Rumple at 5:39 PM on May 29, 2022 [5 favorites]
Cool. We start today and the next generation can live without the threat of school shootings.
QFT!
posted by bcd at 5:41 PM on May 29, 2022 [1 favorite]
QFT!
posted by bcd at 5:41 PM on May 29, 2022 [1 favorite]
But then I thought, how do they train people to reliably run into bullets?
Dirty little secret of the military: They don’t. No form or amount of training has yet been found that makes people reliably ignore basic self-preservation instincts. Some people just do. Maybe the process you described makes a few more do it, but a lot of people simply never will, and you can’t predict which ones.
posted by Etrigan at 5:55 PM on May 29, 2022 [9 favorites]
Dirty little secret of the military: They don’t. No form or amount of training has yet been found that makes people reliably ignore basic self-preservation instincts. Some people just do. Maybe the process you described makes a few more do it, but a lot of people simply never will, and you can’t predict which ones.
posted by Etrigan at 5:55 PM on May 29, 2022 [9 favorites]
Sometimes a lie is needed to get things moving; I hate to think of myself as a liar, same as I hate to think of myself as a thief. But the fact is that I *am* a liar, same as you are, and once I can look at that piece of my humanity it allows me to get things done that the truth just can't get moving.
What I am thinking of here is this: If only someone had thought what would make those disgusting scum-bag worthless cowardly cops take immediate action that they could get into wholly, what would make it so that they just could not wait even one second, be willing to drive their car through a wall to get in there. I am thinking of course of calling 911 and telling them that there is an unarmed black man with his hands raised inside that school. Every cop inside of 185 miles would have been in that school inside of two minutes, and while they'd be surprised and terrified and cry and wet their pants to actually face danger, perhaps one out of the five hundred and ninety-two of them that showed would accidentally show some courage and blow holes into that kid with the guns.
A simple lie. If only someone had thought of it in real time, had hit the button that never, ever fails to make cops move.
posted by dancestoblue at 3:04 AM on May 30, 2022 [3 favorites]
What I am thinking of here is this: If only someone had thought what would make those disgusting scum-bag worthless cowardly cops take immediate action that they could get into wholly, what would make it so that they just could not wait even one second, be willing to drive their car through a wall to get in there. I am thinking of course of calling 911 and telling them that there is an unarmed black man with his hands raised inside that school. Every cop inside of 185 miles would have been in that school inside of two minutes, and while they'd be surprised and terrified and cry and wet their pants to actually face danger, perhaps one out of the five hundred and ninety-two of them that showed would accidentally show some courage and blow holes into that kid with the guns.
A simple lie. If only someone had thought of it in real time, had hit the button that never, ever fails to make cops move.
posted by dancestoblue at 3:04 AM on May 30, 2022 [3 favorites]
It turns out, contrary to all the gun nuts who insist "assault rifle" is not a real thing, it's really easy to ban the AR-15--just base your ban on muzzle velocity and bore diameter. That's what ER docs say is the problem with these guns versus a handgun, that the bullet trajectory is this huge area of destroyed tissue because the bullets are traveling so much faster. It's not complicated. That's what Canada did.
As of May 1, 2020 the Government of Canada has prohibited over 1,500 models of assault-style firearms and certain components of some newly prohibited firearms (the upper receivers of M16, AR-10, AR-15, and M4 patterns of firearms). New maximum thresholds for muzzle energy (greater than 10,000 Joules) and bore diameter (20 mm bore or greater) are also in place. Any firearm that exceeds them is now prohibited.posted by hydropsyche at 3:34 AM on May 30, 2022 [19 favorites]
20mm is cannon caliber, and 10,000 joules is heavy (meaning vehicle- or tripod-mounted) machine gun territory. I don't think that limitation has too much effect on your average (!) US mass shooting scenario.
posted by Harald74 at 5:17 AM on May 30, 2022
posted by Harald74 at 5:17 AM on May 30, 2022
Anyone knows how the conversation is going in cop-centric online spaces, btw? The events here seems to be not exactly in line with the "warrior cop" culture (or basic human decency, but that's another thing altogether).
posted by Harald74 at 5:29 AM on May 30, 2022
posted by Harald74 at 5:29 AM on May 30, 2022
I don't know all the details of Canadian law and am not in fact a gun expert, but I do know that the muzzle velocity of an AR-15 is a lot faster than a lot of other guns and that's one reason it causes more damage and so setting a maximum legal muzzle velocity seems like a good start if we want to find a way to reduce the deadliness of these mass killings we keep having. Or we could just throw up our hands and not do anything at all because people love high muzzle velocity guns, I guess.
posted by hydropsyche at 6:34 AM on May 30, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by hydropsyche at 6:34 AM on May 30, 2022 [3 favorites]
America as a Gun Culture, Richard Hofstadter, American Heritage Magazine, Volume 21 Issue 6, October 1970:
posted by cenoxo at 8:12 AM on May 30, 2022 [15 favorites]
Senator Joseph Tydings of Maryland, appealing in the summer of 1968 for an effective gun-control law, lamented: “It is just tragic that in all of Western civilization the United States is the one country with an insane gun policy.” In one respect this was an understatement: Western or otherwise, the United States is the only modern industrial urban nation that persists in maintaining a gun culture. It is the only industrial nation in which the possession of rifles, shotguns, and handguns is lawfully prevalent among large numbers of its population. It is the only such nation that has been impelled in recent years to agonize at length about its own disposition toward violence and to set up a commission to examine it, the only nation so attached to the supposed “right” to bear arms that its laws abet assassins, professional criminals, berserk murderers, and political terrorists at the expense of the orderly population—and yet it remains, and is apparently determined to remain, the most passive of all the major countries in the matter of gun control.This +50 year old article* — worth reading in its entirety — concludes with the following question:
Many otherwise intelligent Americans cling with pathetic stubbornness to the notion that the people’s right to bear arms is the greatest protection of their individual rights and a firm safeguard of democracy—without being in the slightest perturbed by the fact that no other democracy in the world observes any such “right” and that in some democracies in which citizens’ rights are rather better protected than in ours, such as England and the Scandinavian countries, our arms control policies would be considered laughable.
Laughable, however, they are not, when one begins to contemplate the costs. Since strict gun controls clearly could not entirely prevent homicides, suicides, armed robberies, or gun accidents, there is no simple way of estimating the direct human cost, much less the important indirect political costs, of having lax gun laws. But a somewhat incomplete total of firearms fatalities in the United States as of 1964 shows that in the twentieth century alone we have suffered more than 740,000 deaths from firearms, embracing over 265,000 homicides, over 330,000 suicides, and over 139,000 gun accidents.This figure is considerably higher than all the battle deaths (that is, deaths sustained under arms but excluding those from disease) suffered by American forces in all the wars in our history...
… American legislators have been inordinately responsive to the tremendous lobby maintained by the National Rifle Association, in tandem with gunmakers and importers, military sympathizers, and far-right organizations. A nation that could not devise a system of gun control after its experiences of the 1960’s, and at a moment of profound popular revulsion against guns, is not likely to get such a system in the calculable future. One must wonder how grave a domestic gun catastrophe would have to be in order to persuade us. How far must things go?*Related American Heritage #tags and stories are listed below the article.
posted by cenoxo at 8:12 AM on May 30, 2022 [15 favorites]
the muzzle velocity of an AR-15 is a lot faster than a lot of other guns and that's one reason it causes more damage
I think this statement is misleading and is not supported by the underlying link (because it compares "AR-15s" to conventional low velocity handguns) ; my issue being with the parts "A LOT faster than A LOT of other guns". On average yes an AR round is faster than a handgun round, but they are not A LOT faster than A LOT of long gun rounds. Here's one link that has tables for handgun and rifle cartridges*. (note, "AR-15s" are usually chambered in .223/5.56 although some are 7.62) In general I think you'll find that "AR-15" rounds are about 2-4 times more faster/energetic than handgun rounds but (generally) they are not A LOT faster than A LOT of rifle rounds and seemingly carry less energy than many.
"AR-15s" (the ".223 or 5.56X45mm" cartridge actually) specifically designed to be high velocity with lethal terminal ballistics? Absolutely (some historical detail here)
Faster and more energetic than handguns? Absolutely.
Faster and more energetic than a lot of other long guns? Doesn't seem so.
* Because it's the cartridge, not the platform. One could load an "AR-15" cartridge with a light bullet and little gunpowder and get a weak subsonic round.
posted by achrise at 9:29 AM on May 30, 2022
I think this statement is misleading and is not supported by the underlying link (because it compares "AR-15s" to conventional low velocity handguns) ; my issue being with the parts "A LOT faster than A LOT of other guns". On average yes an AR round is faster than a handgun round, but they are not A LOT faster than A LOT of long gun rounds. Here's one link that has tables for handgun and rifle cartridges*. (note, "AR-15s" are usually chambered in .223/5.56 although some are 7.62) In general I think you'll find that "AR-15" rounds are about 2-4 times more faster/energetic than handgun rounds but (generally) they are not A LOT faster than A LOT of rifle rounds and seemingly carry less energy than many.
"AR-15s" (the ".223 or 5.56X45mm" cartridge actually) specifically designed to be high velocity with lethal terminal ballistics? Absolutely (some historical detail here)
Faster and more energetic than handguns? Absolutely.
Faster and more energetic than a lot of other long guns? Doesn't seem so.
* Because it's the cartridge, not the platform. One could load an "AR-15" cartridge with a light bullet and little gunpowder and get a weak subsonic round.
posted by achrise at 9:29 AM on May 30, 2022
It turns out, contrary to all the gun nuts who insist "assault rifle" is not a real thing, it's really easy to ban the AR-15--just base your ban on muzzle velocity and bore diameter. That's what ER docs say is the problem with these guns versus a handgun, that the bullet trajectory is this huge area of destroyed tissue because the bullets are traveling so much faster. It's not complicated. That's what Canada did.
As of May 1, 2020 the Government of Canada has prohibited over 1,500 models of assault-style firearms and certain components of some newly prohibited firearms (the upper receivers of M16, AR-10, AR-15, and M4 patterns of firearms). New maximum thresholds for muzzle energy (greater than 10,000 Joules) and bore diameter (20 mm bore or greater) are also in place. Any firearm that exceeds them is now prohibited.
The key items in that are the direct prohibitions on a long list of specific models and related components. As others have noted, those energy and bore diameter limits are a different thing, targeted at the largest calibers. (The "list of prohibited firearms" link to Public Safety Canada gives examples of grenade launchers and sniper rifles, for example.)
I think if we were to successfully regulate assault rifles here, it would have to be similar to Canada's rules -- prohibiting specific models and specific components, and banning certain general features (like magazines over X capacity) to stop people from easy work-arounds.
posted by Dip Flash at 9:53 AM on May 30, 2022
As of May 1, 2020 the Government of Canada has prohibited over 1,500 models of assault-style firearms and certain components of some newly prohibited firearms (the upper receivers of M16, AR-10, AR-15, and M4 patterns of firearms). New maximum thresholds for muzzle energy (greater than 10,000 Joules) and bore diameter (20 mm bore or greater) are also in place. Any firearm that exceeds them is now prohibited.
The key items in that are the direct prohibitions on a long list of specific models and related components. As others have noted, those energy and bore diameter limits are a different thing, targeted at the largest calibers. (The "list of prohibited firearms" link to Public Safety Canada gives examples of grenade launchers and sniper rifles, for example.)
I think if we were to successfully regulate assault rifles here, it would have to be similar to Canada's rules -- prohibiting specific models and specific components, and banning certain general features (like magazines over X capacity) to stop people from easy work-arounds.
posted by Dip Flash at 9:53 AM on May 30, 2022
All these thin blue line American flags are just painful to see today.
I woke up 4 times last night thinking about those little kids, their terror, pain, and what their parents will have left to bury.
We need a No More Dead Kids flag
posted by I will not be Heiled at 10:40 AM on May 30, 2022 [10 favorites]
I woke up 4 times last night thinking about those little kids, their terror, pain, and what their parents will have left to bury.
We need a No More Dead Kids flag
posted by I will not be Heiled at 10:40 AM on May 30, 2022 [10 favorites]
At 11:32, the shooter entered the school. At 11:34, the first three (or four?) police officers entered the school. Shortly after this, the shooter fired at them, wounding several.
My question is: where was the shooter when he fired at these police officers?
This is important because it appears that the shooter, after entering the school, did not go immediately to 111/112, but first tried the doors to other classrooms, and shot several times through the door (its window) of classroom 109, striking the teacher in the leg, with a ricochet fragment injuring a student. After this, the student ("Daniel"), who witnessed this in 109, then heard the shooter bang/try another door.
There were only two minutes from when the shooter entered the school to when the first LE entered the school.
If the shooter shot at the police from within 111/112, as has been implied, then the shooter must have only just entered those connected classrooms, as he had first tried other doors and even shot several times through the door to 109. This implies at the very least the shooter had not yet entered the connected classroom and may not yet have fired on the students (he did shoot one teacher immediately upon entering). If so, the officers' decision to retreat gave the shooter time to fire upon many of these kids and the kids and second teacher in the connecting classroom.
If the shooter shot at the police from the hallway and not 111/112, then it's even worse: the retreating police could possibly have prevented the shooter from ever entering 111/112. Note that the girl who played dead and repeatedly called 911 from her teacher's phone didn't know the police were there — and you'd think she might have known they were if the shooter fired through the door at those initital responding officers.
Either way, that the police followed the shooter into the school within a mere two minutes was a huge opportunity that the police squandered when they decided to retreat.
Then it was only a matter of minutes before a dozen or more additional LE entered the school and then about an additional entire hour before LE finally entered 111/112. It seems like the shooter shot the other teacher and the students in those classrooms during that first interval from when the initial officers retreated and the numerous additional LE officers arrived, so the inaction for this extended period may not have prevented this. But this may not be the case. More certain, during that 70-minute or so period, some of the initially injured died who might have otherwise received treatment.
But I'm really hung up on those first two minutes of the shooter's movements, and then exactly what happened when the first officers arrived, and where they were fired upon (and from).
The narrative has been shaped by the police to suggest that the shooter immediately went into 111/112, shot the teachers and students, fired at the first responding police from inside, at which point the officers were injured and retreated and all the slaughter had already happened, anyway. This implied narrative suggests that, at most, the delay possibly cost the lives of some injured children and, crucially, that the police themselves could never have accidentally shot any teachers or children. But now we know some of this implied narrative actually isn't true, and much of the rest isn't necessarily true.
My secondary question is about the 11 (?) minutes the shooter was outside the school. This is when he first fired at two funeral home employees across the street, and then was crouched next to a car when the school resource officer unknowingly drove by. I guess it makes sense that it was the arrival of one or more police cars that drove the shooter into the school, but at first glance it seems a big coincidence that the shooter lingered outside for 11 minutes, yet the police entered the school only 2 minutes after he did. The account of the events outside the school remain extremely sparse and 11 minutes was a long priod of time in which it could have been possible to prevent the shooter from entering the school. He'd just wrecked and abandoned a truck, shot at people across the street, and reportedly fired at the exterior of the school during that time. He wasn't stealthy. That 11 minutes is a long time, especially considering that the police nevertheless somehow entered the school only 2 minutes after he did.
So, really, we still have been told very little about the period between 11:21 and 11:36 in terms of what exactly happened where and when. I wonder if the police were there/nearby before he entered the school, and I wonder if, when they enterered at 11:34 until they retreated (11:36?), they had an opportunity to either stop him from entering 111/112 or stop him from shooting most/many of those shot in 111/112.
I guess ultimately this doesn't matter so much given that we already know that the police training they had a mere two months prior called for immediate preventative engagement, at risk of injury, and yet they completely ignored this. The difference between the training materials and how they behaved was vast and stark. Retreat and 70 minutes of inaction is a sufficiently damning indictment.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 11:53 AM on May 30, 2022 [14 favorites]
My question is: where was the shooter when he fired at these police officers?
This is important because it appears that the shooter, after entering the school, did not go immediately to 111/112, but first tried the doors to other classrooms, and shot several times through the door (its window) of classroom 109, striking the teacher in the leg, with a ricochet fragment injuring a student. After this, the student ("Daniel"), who witnessed this in 109, then heard the shooter bang/try another door.
There were only two minutes from when the shooter entered the school to when the first LE entered the school.
If the shooter shot at the police from within 111/112, as has been implied, then the shooter must have only just entered those connected classrooms, as he had first tried other doors and even shot several times through the door to 109. This implies at the very least the shooter had not yet entered the connected classroom and may not yet have fired on the students (he did shoot one teacher immediately upon entering). If so, the officers' decision to retreat gave the shooter time to fire upon many of these kids and the kids and second teacher in the connecting classroom.
If the shooter shot at the police from the hallway and not 111/112, then it's even worse: the retreating police could possibly have prevented the shooter from ever entering 111/112. Note that the girl who played dead and repeatedly called 911 from her teacher's phone didn't know the police were there — and you'd think she might have known they were if the shooter fired through the door at those initital responding officers.
Either way, that the police followed the shooter into the school within a mere two minutes was a huge opportunity that the police squandered when they decided to retreat.
Then it was only a matter of minutes before a dozen or more additional LE entered the school and then about an additional entire hour before LE finally entered 111/112. It seems like the shooter shot the other teacher and the students in those classrooms during that first interval from when the initial officers retreated and the numerous additional LE officers arrived, so the inaction for this extended period may not have prevented this. But this may not be the case. More certain, during that 70-minute or so period, some of the initially injured died who might have otherwise received treatment.
But I'm really hung up on those first two minutes of the shooter's movements, and then exactly what happened when the first officers arrived, and where they were fired upon (and from).
The narrative has been shaped by the police to suggest that the shooter immediately went into 111/112, shot the teachers and students, fired at the first responding police from inside, at which point the officers were injured and retreated and all the slaughter had already happened, anyway. This implied narrative suggests that, at most, the delay possibly cost the lives of some injured children and, crucially, that the police themselves could never have accidentally shot any teachers or children. But now we know some of this implied narrative actually isn't true, and much of the rest isn't necessarily true.
My secondary question is about the 11 (?) minutes the shooter was outside the school. This is when he first fired at two funeral home employees across the street, and then was crouched next to a car when the school resource officer unknowingly drove by. I guess it makes sense that it was the arrival of one or more police cars that drove the shooter into the school, but at first glance it seems a big coincidence that the shooter lingered outside for 11 minutes, yet the police entered the school only 2 minutes after he did. The account of the events outside the school remain extremely sparse and 11 minutes was a long priod of time in which it could have been possible to prevent the shooter from entering the school. He'd just wrecked and abandoned a truck, shot at people across the street, and reportedly fired at the exterior of the school during that time. He wasn't stealthy. That 11 minutes is a long time, especially considering that the police nevertheless somehow entered the school only 2 minutes after he did.
So, really, we still have been told very little about the period between 11:21 and 11:36 in terms of what exactly happened where and when. I wonder if the police were there/nearby before he entered the school, and I wonder if, when they enterered at 11:34 until they retreated (11:36?), they had an opportunity to either stop him from entering 111/112 or stop him from shooting most/many of those shot in 111/112.
I guess ultimately this doesn't matter so much given that we already know that the police training they had a mere two months prior called for immediate preventative engagement, at risk of injury, and yet they completely ignored this. The difference between the training materials and how they behaved was vast and stark. Retreat and 70 minutes of inaction is a sufficiently damning indictment.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 11:53 AM on May 30, 2022 [14 favorites]
All this muzzle velocity talk is forest for the trees. Ban semiautomatics regardless of caliber, velocity, or barrel length, there is no positive argument for them. This is after repealing the racist 2nd Amendment, of course!
And the cops were cowards, period.
posted by rhizome at 12:49 PM on May 30, 2022 [4 favorites]
And the cops were cowards, period.
posted by rhizome at 12:49 PM on May 30, 2022 [4 favorites]
"Actually, the FaceVaporiser 420 class of weapons is generally regarded as an entry level Atrocity Implementation Device and only becomes truly dangerous when adapted with a kit, available online, that allows it to launch NATO standard neutronium slugs at relativistic speeds that do have legitimate uses such as eg a farmer who needs to remove an inconvenient mountain from his property and really this lack of basic knowledge is why no-one who isn't intimately familiar with these devices should get to have their childlike opinions taken seriously because they are clearly uninterested in the long and noble history of pink mist generation machines and, furthermore ..."
posted by thatwhichfalls at 12:58 PM on May 30, 2022 [18 favorites]
posted by thatwhichfalls at 12:58 PM on May 30, 2022 [18 favorites]
achrise: As I said, let's ban all guns with high muzzle velocity. If that applies to as many long guns as you say, then I guess y'all get to have fewer long guns. I don't see the problem with this.
posted by hydropsyche at 1:20 PM on May 30, 2022 [9 favorites]
posted by hydropsyche at 1:20 PM on May 30, 2022 [9 favorites]
I think if we were to successfully regulate assault rifles here, it would have to be similar to Canada's rules -- prohibiting specific models and specific components, and banning certain general features (like magazines over X capacity) to stop people from easy work-arounds.
FIY, we do it wrong too. You have to reverse the argument... what are the legit uses of a gun?
* Hunting animals
* Law enforcement / military
Law enforcement & the military can keep their guns.
So you're left with hunting. We should have guns should good enough to hunt, minimal capacity, no semi-autos, break action reloads, reasonable caliber.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 2:35 PM on May 30, 2022 [4 favorites]
FIY, we do it wrong too. You have to reverse the argument... what are the legit uses of a gun?
* Hunting animals
* Law enforcement / military
Law enforcement & the military can keep their guns.
So you're left with hunting. We should have guns should good enough to hunt, minimal capacity, no semi-autos, break action reloads, reasonable caliber.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 2:35 PM on May 30, 2022 [4 favorites]
If the law allowed us to treat gun manufacturers the way that we treated Purdue when their complicity when their diversion of pharmaceuticals was discovered it wouldn't solve the problem, but it sure as shit would cut down on it.
posted by wierdo at 2:39 PM on May 30, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by wierdo at 2:39 PM on May 30, 2022 [5 favorites]
(Kinda fumbled with the post button sorry all.... I meant 'just good enough to hunt')
You want more? You should be in permits/license galore, usable only in licensed ranges, weapons/ammunitions stored at the range while not in use, only movable by licensed movers. When bought, you don't get to have it, you must have it delivered at a range. The social cost of guns is too high to keep externalizing the costs.
Even hunting riffles can be an issue since it's well demonstrated that the presence of guns increases the occurrence of gun violence in domestic situations. But at least there's a specific useful use to those.
Now the US might be a lost cause, but it's also impacting Canada, even with our stricter gun laws, there's a lot of black markets guns because we share a gigantic frontier with a country where it's way too easy to buy firearms.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 2:50 PM on May 30, 2022 [1 favorite]
You want more? You should be in permits/license galore, usable only in licensed ranges, weapons/ammunitions stored at the range while not in use, only movable by licensed movers. When bought, you don't get to have it, you must have it delivered at a range. The social cost of guns is too high to keep externalizing the costs.
Even hunting riffles can be an issue since it's well demonstrated that the presence of guns increases the occurrence of gun violence in domestic situations. But at least there's a specific useful use to those.
Now the US might be a lost cause, but it's also impacting Canada, even with our stricter gun laws, there's a lot of black markets guns because we share a gigantic frontier with a country where it's way too easy to buy firearms.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 2:50 PM on May 30, 2022 [1 favorite]
In the wake of Uvalde, the Canadian government has put forth a bill to ban the purchase, transfer, or importation of handguns. As already noted, roughly 1500 types of "assault weapons" were previously banned in 2020.
posted by Ahmad Khani at 3:03 PM on May 30, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by Ahmad Khani at 3:03 PM on May 30, 2022 [3 favorites]
So you're left with hunting. We should have guns should good enough to hunt, minimal capacity, no semi-autos, break action reloads, reasonable caliber.
I've long believed that if you need more than a lever or bolt action rifle (manually cycled usually with 6 - 10 round magazines) then you probably shouldn't be out in the woods being a danger to other hunters in the first place.
posted by mikelieman at 3:16 PM on May 30, 2022 [20 favorites]
I've long believed that if you need more than a lever or bolt action rifle (manually cycled usually with 6 - 10 round magazines) then you probably shouldn't be out in the woods being a danger to other hunters in the first place.
posted by mikelieman at 3:16 PM on May 30, 2022 [20 favorites]
Now the US might be a lost cause, but it's also impacting Canada, even with our stricter gun laws, there's a lot of black markets guns because we share a gigantic frontier with a country where it's way too easy to buy firearms.
This happens in the US. Gun Law Arbitrage. It's why the unregulated secondary market is a problem. When someone in NYC wants some guns, they just drive up to Vermont for the weekend, (Chicago/Indiana, etc) and privately buy whatever they want for cash with no license, registration, background checks, etc. The chain of custody is broken and holding the "last legal owner" responsible is impossible.
The solution to this is NATIONAL licensing and registration + 20 year prison terms for anyone transferring an unlicensed firearm or transferring it to an unlicensed person. This shuts down the unregulated secondary market, and that'll reduce the guns crossing the border into Canada. And it's past time for gun owners to pay the costs of gun violence. At 208 billion/year and 383 million guns, that's an annual tax of like $550/firearm/year. Insurance would bring that down to something even cheaper, but a straight tax works for me.
posted by mikelieman at 3:23 PM on May 30, 2022 [6 favorites]
This happens in the US. Gun Law Arbitrage. It's why the unregulated secondary market is a problem. When someone in NYC wants some guns, they just drive up to Vermont for the weekend, (Chicago/Indiana, etc) and privately buy whatever they want for cash with no license, registration, background checks, etc. The chain of custody is broken and holding the "last legal owner" responsible is impossible.
The solution to this is NATIONAL licensing and registration + 20 year prison terms for anyone transferring an unlicensed firearm or transferring it to an unlicensed person. This shuts down the unregulated secondary market, and that'll reduce the guns crossing the border into Canada. And it's past time for gun owners to pay the costs of gun violence. At 208 billion/year and 383 million guns, that's an annual tax of like $550/firearm/year. Insurance would bring that down to something even cheaper, but a straight tax works for me.
posted by mikelieman at 3:23 PM on May 30, 2022 [6 favorites]
This essay pulls the threads together
https://theconversation.com/american-exceptionalism-the-poison-that-cannot-protect-its-children-from-violent-death-184045
...I had grown accustomed to the ritual of the very powerful and influential people I met asking me what I might do next, after Yale. When everyone is connected to someone, your answer to that question might make or break the rest of your life.
In the five months prior to February 2018, I had answered it very carefully, probably with visible desperation. But after Parkland, I got braver. I changed my answer.
We were going home, I started to say – we were going home because we could not send our child to school here. We could not live with the unadulterated existential horror of our three-year-old doing lockdown drills less than 25 miles from the site of the mass shooting of 20 other babies. We couldn’t do it.
The response I got never, ever varied. Sure, they would reply – that’s a reasonable position. But a ripple across the forehead, a tiny frown, almost always gave them away. I could see a switch flicking. I was either written off as lacking ambition or encouraged to reconsider – to look at this or that program, or university.
In all honesty, it was only then – despite over a decade of study, despite multiple visits – that I really understood the poison of American exceptionalism. These powerful, rich people were utterly convinced that the US, and the small corner of it that they occupied, was the best possible place in which to be, and it was worth it to be there. It was worth the risk of Sandy Hook.
They were, of course, partly insulated from that risk. Their kids went to schools with better security than most; they had money and health insurance. But it was still a risk. They had been exposed to that risk directly.
The pervasiveness of the threat means that gun massacres can and do happen to people who are otherwise protected from the most excessive cruelties of American society. To take just one example: in 2017, a gunman opened fire on a mostly white crowd at a country music festival in Las Vegas. It was the deadliest mass shooting in American history.
They were all horrified by gun violence, of course. They were sad, and frightened. But they weren’t angry. They were resigned to the continuing occurrence of mass shootings of children: just another thing that happens in America.
Powerful Americans would see this as unfair, of course. But after nearly four years of reflection, I do not know what else to take from it. These enormously powerful and influential people had decided that not only was the risk worth it, but that they could do nothing about it.
posted by Barbara Spitzer at 6:09 PM on May 30, 2022 [27 favorites]
https://theconversation.com/american-exceptionalism-the-poison-that-cannot-protect-its-children-from-violent-death-184045
...I had grown accustomed to the ritual of the very powerful and influential people I met asking me what I might do next, after Yale. When everyone is connected to someone, your answer to that question might make or break the rest of your life.
In the five months prior to February 2018, I had answered it very carefully, probably with visible desperation. But after Parkland, I got braver. I changed my answer.
We were going home, I started to say – we were going home because we could not send our child to school here. We could not live with the unadulterated existential horror of our three-year-old doing lockdown drills less than 25 miles from the site of the mass shooting of 20 other babies. We couldn’t do it.
The response I got never, ever varied. Sure, they would reply – that’s a reasonable position. But a ripple across the forehead, a tiny frown, almost always gave them away. I could see a switch flicking. I was either written off as lacking ambition or encouraged to reconsider – to look at this or that program, or university.
In all honesty, it was only then – despite over a decade of study, despite multiple visits – that I really understood the poison of American exceptionalism. These powerful, rich people were utterly convinced that the US, and the small corner of it that they occupied, was the best possible place in which to be, and it was worth it to be there. It was worth the risk of Sandy Hook.
They were, of course, partly insulated from that risk. Their kids went to schools with better security than most; they had money and health insurance. But it was still a risk. They had been exposed to that risk directly.
The pervasiveness of the threat means that gun massacres can and do happen to people who are otherwise protected from the most excessive cruelties of American society. To take just one example: in 2017, a gunman opened fire on a mostly white crowd at a country music festival in Las Vegas. It was the deadliest mass shooting in American history.
They were all horrified by gun violence, of course. They were sad, and frightened. But they weren’t angry. They were resigned to the continuing occurrence of mass shootings of children: just another thing that happens in America.
Powerful Americans would see this as unfair, of course. But after nearly four years of reflection, I do not know what else to take from it. These enormously powerful and influential people had decided that not only was the risk worth it, but that they could do nothing about it.
posted by Barbara Spitzer at 6:09 PM on May 30, 2022 [27 favorites]
Related link within the same Conversation article — Read more: Will the latest shooting of US children finally lead to gun reform? Sadly, that's unlikely.
See also: How the NRA evolved from backing a 1934 ban on machine guns to blocking nearly all firearm restrictions today, Robert J. Spitzer, The Conversation, May 25, 2022:
See also: How the NRA evolved from backing a 1934 ban on machine guns to blocking nearly all firearm restrictions today, Robert J. Spitzer, The Conversation, May 25, 2022:
…After spending decades researching and writing about how and why the NRA came to hold such sway over national gun policies, I’ve seen this narrative take unexpected turns in the last few years that raise new questions about the organization’s reputation for invincibility.posted by cenoxo at 5:06 AM on May 31, 2022 [2 favorites]
'Full of victims': Video appears to show Texas 911 dispatchers relaying information from children in classroom
At a news conference Friday, Texas Department of Public Safety Director Steven McGraw said children inside the classroom had called 911 a number of times begging for them to "please send police now." It appeared that information may not have been relayed to officers on the ground, he said... the video obtained by ABC News, taken just outside the premises, appears to show that 911 dispatchers were relaying the information-- including information that the room was "full of victims."posted by BungaDunga at 12:21 PM on May 31, 2022 [12 favorites]
Read more: Will the latest shooting of US children finally lead to gun reform? Sadly, that's unlikely.
This characteristic US lefty pessimism is exactly why I'm vocal about repealing the 2nd Amendment. "Gun reform" is such a soft concept and it's the tiniest step that can easily be swatted away, other than maybe "...finally cause shooters to think twice about killing as many people as possible?" It's a vacuous rhetoric that only says the words "gun reform" without supplying anything people can even think about. Or everything they can think about. I'm done begging for the smallest concession and the gun nuts have long been able to easily swat these moments away. Let's talk the big issue: why guns, and why so easily? Let's see how it is in Japan.
Oppressive, you say? Japan has almost completely eliminated gun deaths.
posted by rhizome at 12:27 PM on May 31, 2022 [9 favorites]
This characteristic US lefty pessimism is exactly why I'm vocal about repealing the 2nd Amendment. "Gun reform" is such a soft concept and it's the tiniest step that can easily be swatted away, other than maybe "...finally cause shooters to think twice about killing as many people as possible?" It's a vacuous rhetoric that only says the words "gun reform" without supplying anything people can even think about. Or everything they can think about. I'm done begging for the smallest concession and the gun nuts have long been able to easily swat these moments away. Let's talk the big issue: why guns, and why so easily? Let's see how it is in Japan.
Oppressive, you say? Japan has almost completely eliminated gun deaths.
posted by rhizome at 12:27 PM on May 31, 2022 [9 favorites]
Slate has a pretty good summary of the presser, as well as a timeline that (for me, at least) answered some of the questions that have been unanswered. (i.e. how did the murderer get in? why so long before entering the school? and then why so long before entering the classroom?)
Reading it made me feel even worse about what happened, but answered some gnawing questions.
Yeah, well, it turns out at least one of the "answers" to those unanswered questions turns out to be utter bullshit. Uvalde teacher did not leave door open that gunman used to enter school. There's apparently video evidence; sounds like the door was closed but may have been unlocked.
posted by nubs at 2:45 PM on May 31, 2022 [10 favorites]
Reading it made me feel even worse about what happened, but answered some gnawing questions.
Yeah, well, it turns out at least one of the "answers" to those unanswered questions turns out to be utter bullshit. Uvalde teacher did not leave door open that gunman used to enter school. There's apparently video evidence; sounds like the door was closed but may have been unlocked.
posted by nubs at 2:45 PM on May 31, 2022 [10 favorites]
The Uvalde cops got their feelings hurt by being called out, so now they're not cooperating with the Texas DPS investigation into their cowardly inaction.
posted by heteronym at 2:47 PM on May 31, 2022 [13 favorites]
posted by heteronym at 2:47 PM on May 31, 2022 [13 favorites]
Didn't anyone tell the Uvalde police that if they didn't do anything wrong there's no reason for them to not cooperate and answer a few friendly questions?
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 3:32 PM on May 31, 2022 [28 favorites]
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 3:32 PM on May 31, 2022 [28 favorites]
A gun seller and some Uvalde cops need to go to prison for a long time over this.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 3:41 PM on May 31, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 3:41 PM on May 31, 2022 [2 favorites]
Portland, Oregon could have told you this would happen. When you yell at the cops for doing something bad, they sulk and refuse to do their jobs anymore.
posted by bink at 3:49 PM on May 31, 2022 [19 favorites]
posted by bink at 3:49 PM on May 31, 2022 [19 favorites]
When you yell at the cops for doing something bad, they sulk and refuse to do their jobs anymore.
I think that is happening all over the country. "Law Enforcement" is a very strange occupation.
posted by chaz at 3:55 PM on May 31, 2022 [8 favorites]
I think that is happening all over the country. "Law Enforcement" is a very strange occupation.
posted by chaz at 3:55 PM on May 31, 2022 [8 favorites]
The funerals begin today (Tuesday). Guardian; Twitter.
Also: The Mayor of Uvalde has confirmed that "Uvalde ISD Chief Pete Arredondo was officially sworn in as a city council member today" (per various breaking news sources on Twitter e.g. @tplohetski).
posted by Sockin'inthefreeworld at 7:11 PM on May 31, 2022 [2 favorites]
Also: The Mayor of Uvalde has confirmed that "Uvalde ISD Chief Pete Arredondo was officially sworn in as a city council member today" (per various breaking news sources on Twitter e.g. @tplohetski).
posted by Sockin'inthefreeworld at 7:11 PM on May 31, 2022 [2 favorites]
> A gun seller
I was under the impression the murderer ordered the guns online directly from the manufacturer, who offered an installment payment plan(!) and the purchase was then papered over by a local gun shop presumably for a fee, almost like how where I live UPS delivers to Freddy's Flowers and I go show my ID and get mygun parcel from Freddy.
Lots of punishment to go around but if this is indeed how it happened it is extra creepy, sloppy, abusable, and brings the manufacturer into the heart of it.
posted by Rumple at 7:43 PM on May 31, 2022 [6 favorites]
I was under the impression the murderer ordered the guns online directly from the manufacturer, who offered an installment payment plan(!) and the purchase was then papered over by a local gun shop presumably for a fee, almost like how where I live UPS delivers to Freddy's Flowers and I go show my ID and get my
Lots of punishment to go around but if this is indeed how it happened it is extra creepy, sloppy, abusable, and brings the manufacturer into the heart of it.
posted by Rumple at 7:43 PM on May 31, 2022 [6 favorites]
The Mayor of Uvalde has confirmed that "Uvalde ISD Chief Pete Arredondo was officially sworn in as a city council member today"
...after canceling the publicly-accessible city council meeting last night where it was originally supposed to happen.
posted by rhizome at 7:44 PM on May 31, 2022 [7 favorites]
...after canceling the publicly-accessible city council meeting last night where it was originally supposed to happen.
posted by rhizome at 7:44 PM on May 31, 2022 [7 favorites]
When Does It Stop?, a moving digital artwork on the Uvalde massacre by Jud Pratt
posted by Ten Cold Hot Dogs at 1:01 AM on June 1, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Ten Cold Hot Dogs at 1:01 AM on June 1, 2022 [1 favorite]
So apparently yesterday the Girl Scouts of Southwest Texas announced that has posthumously awarded Amerie Jo Garza, one of the Uvalde victims, with its Bronze Cross award. In its tweet announcing this, the Girl Scouts explained that the Bronze Cross is awarded for "saving or attempting to save life at the risk of the Girl Scout’s own life."
Most responses to the Tweet are talking about how sad this is - but there are a handful who are responding more like "since when did the Girl Scouts even have to come up with a military honor for fuck's sake".
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:26 AM on June 1, 2022 [18 favorites]
Most responses to the Tweet are talking about how sad this is - but there are a handful who are responding more like "since when did the Girl Scouts even have to come up with a military honor for fuck's sake".
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:26 AM on June 1, 2022 [18 favorites]
The way this is going with the local PD, I'm fully expecting the medical examiner to tell us police fired some of the bullets that killed kids.
posted by feloniousmonk at 9:27 AM on June 1, 2022 [15 favorites]
posted by feloniousmonk at 9:27 AM on June 1, 2022 [15 favorites]
Since when is trying to save someone's life at risk to one's own exclusively a military thing? Lifeguards do that.
posted by Gelatin at 9:29 AM on June 1, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by Gelatin at 9:29 AM on June 1, 2022 [4 favorites]
I mean, I’m not expecting them to tell us that, but I’m fully expecting that the police killed some of the kids and that’s why the police chief was so weasely about what he “believed”.
posted by corb at 10:03 AM on June 1, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by corb at 10:03 AM on June 1, 2022 [4 favorites]
Seems like there’s now a lot of “it’s disrespectful to the families to investigate me”.
posted by Artw at 10:36 AM on June 1, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by Artw at 10:36 AM on June 1, 2022 [4 favorites]
Here's a previous Bronze Cross recipient: "Girl Scout Senior Elizabeth Irwin has been awarded Girl Scouts of the USA (GSUSA)’s Lifesaving Award: The Bronze Cross for saving the life of her mother when they were in a car accident together... Girl Scouts have been honored since 1913 for meritorious deeds that have helped save lives. "
posted by BungaDunga at 10:45 AM on June 1, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by BungaDunga at 10:45 AM on June 1, 2022 [4 favorites]
Police chief Arredondo gave an interview to CNN in which he comes off as a liar with not a shred of decency or compassion, whose only concern is to protect his own ass. I'll copy paste a bit of it here:
According to the Texas Department of Public Safety (DPS), Arredondo has not responded to a request for a follow-up interview with the Texas Rangers, who are investigating the shooting at Robb Elementary.
Yet outside his home Wednesday, Arredondo told CNN’s Aaron Cooper, “I am in contact with DPS everyday.”
And outside his office minutes later, he told CNN’s Shimon Prokupecz that he’s not going to release any further information while funerals are ongoing.
“We’re going to be respectful to the family,” he said. “We’re going to do that eventually. Whenever this is done and the families quit grieving, then we’ll do that obviously.”
When they quit grieving for their children who were brutally murdered?? So not until they themselves die?? Even for a psychopath he's tone deaf.
He conducted the interview wearing mirrored sunglasses. No doubt so no one can see the utter lack of human decency in his eyes.
posted by Flock of Cynthiabirds at 10:46 AM on June 1, 2022 [21 favorites]
According to the Texas Department of Public Safety (DPS), Arredondo has not responded to a request for a follow-up interview with the Texas Rangers, who are investigating the shooting at Robb Elementary.
Yet outside his home Wednesday, Arredondo told CNN’s Aaron Cooper, “I am in contact with DPS everyday.”
And outside his office minutes later, he told CNN’s Shimon Prokupecz that he’s not going to release any further information while funerals are ongoing.
“We’re going to be respectful to the family,” he said. “We’re going to do that eventually. Whenever this is done and the families quit grieving, then we’ll do that obviously.”
When they quit grieving for their children who were brutally murdered?? So not until they themselves die?? Even for a psychopath he's tone deaf.
He conducted the interview wearing mirrored sunglasses. No doubt so no one can see the utter lack of human decency in his eyes.
posted by Flock of Cynthiabirds at 10:46 AM on June 1, 2022 [21 favorites]
The Girl Scout Promise: On my honor, I will try to serve God and my country, to help other people at all times, and to live by the Girl Scout Law.
We take this stuff seriously. And yes, some Girl Scouts win medals for saving lives. And some Girl Scouts die trying.
posted by hydropsyche at 12:48 PM on June 1, 2022 [13 favorites]
We take this stuff seriously. And yes, some Girl Scouts win medals for saving lives. And some Girl Scouts die trying.
posted by hydropsyche at 12:48 PM on June 1, 2022 [13 favorites]
We take this stuff seriously. And yes, some Girl Scouts win medals for saving lives. And some Girl Scouts die trying.
This honor just makes the do-nothing police look even worse, if possible.
posted by Gelatin at 1:07 PM on June 1, 2022 [12 favorites]
This honor just makes the do-nothing police look even worse, if possible.
posted by Gelatin at 1:07 PM on June 1, 2022 [12 favorites]
Amerie's stepfather was one of the parents handcuffed when he tried to run into the school. Her whole family is better people than any person on the police force.
posted by hydropsyche at 1:24 PM on June 1, 2022 [10 favorites]
posted by hydropsyche at 1:24 PM on June 1, 2022 [10 favorites]
A Florida charter school has the most tasteless raffle ever:
A Florida high school raffled off guns and other weaponry through a month-long fundraising campaign that ended Wednesday.posted by NoxAeternum at 2:16 PM on June 1, 2022 [2 favorites]
James Madison Preparatory High School in Madison, a charter school, raffled off fishing and hunting gear and firearms, including handguns and semi-automatic rifles, in a $100-per-ticket raffle that started May 2.
The raffle went on largely unimpeded despite two horrific, national tragedies: mass shootings at a Buffalo supermarket and an elementary school in Texas that left nearly three dozen people dead last month.
Re: tasteless raffles
At the time of the Uvalde shooting, the NRA was running a "banned guns" giveaway that featured the same gun used in the school shooting. (source: Business Insider)
"The giveaway began one day before the shooting occurred and ran for four days after. Despite protests, the NRA also continued its annual meeting in Houston, Texas, just days after the shooting."
I will refrain from linking it here, but the promo materials were heavy on the usual "Evil Dems are taking your guns away!" message predictable from the "Don't politicize this!" crowd.
posted by Sockin'inthefreeworld at 3:44 PM on June 1, 2022 [2 favorites]
At the time of the Uvalde shooting, the NRA was running a "banned guns" giveaway that featured the same gun used in the school shooting. (source: Business Insider)
"The giveaway began one day before the shooting occurred and ran for four days after. Despite protests, the NRA also continued its annual meeting in Houston, Texas, just days after the shooting."
I will refrain from linking it here, but the promo materials were heavy on the usual "Evil Dems are taking your guns away!" message predictable from the "Don't politicize this!" crowd.
posted by Sockin'inthefreeworld at 3:44 PM on June 1, 2022 [2 favorites]
I did mis-speak about the Girl Scout Bronze Cross, and I apologize; I think that in this particular instance it felt to me a little too much like one of those scenes from movies where the grieving widow is given her beloved's posthumously-awarded Purple Heart or something.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:33 PM on June 1, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:33 PM on June 1, 2022 [1 favorite]
Totally incredible that nobody has yet resigned.
posted by Mid at 7:53 PM on June 1, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by Mid at 7:53 PM on June 1, 2022 [3 favorites]
It just got weirder. The mayor was on scene and intervening.
posted by Artw at 12:24 AM on June 2, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by Artw at 12:24 AM on June 2, 2022 [5 favorites]
From that Washington Post article about the mayor:
The Architecture of Loss: How to Redesign After a School Shooting — How a building can pay homage to the past while helping people to forget it, Jacoba Urist, The Atlantic, November 20, 2014.
A new high school will have sleek classrooms — and places to hide from a mass shooter! Alex Horton, Washington Post, August 22, 2019.
posted by cenoxo at 4:28 AM on June 2, 2022 [3 favorites]
…Uvalde school officials said Wednesday that they are working to identify safety improvements that may be needed on school campuses in the city. In addition, officials said the Robb campus would not reopen in the wake of the tragedy. Students will be enrolled elsewhere.Should Robb Elementary be rebuilt? Here's what other school shooting sites did, Becky Sullivan, NPR, June 1, 2022.
McLaughlin said he could not imagine the school returning to normal operations. “I hope we tear it down to the ground,” he said. “I would never expect a teacher, a student, anyone to go walk back in that building.”
The Architecture of Loss: How to Redesign After a School Shooting — How a building can pay homage to the past while helping people to forget it, Jacoba Urist, The Atlantic, November 20, 2014.
A new high school will have sleek classrooms — and places to hide from a mass shooter! Alex Horton, Washington Post, August 22, 2019.
posted by cenoxo at 4:28 AM on June 2, 2022 [3 favorites]
I know this is a weird sidebar, but why the f does that Washington Post article have to point out that the mayor of Uvalde uses a cane or walker?
...McLaughlin, who uses a walker or a cane and has called himself a “small potato” in politics has not been shy about speaking out against higher-profile Texas politicians in either party.
Should they also tell me if he wears glasses?
posted by hydra77 at 9:19 AM on June 2, 2022 [9 favorites]
...McLaughlin, who uses a walker or a cane and has called himself a “small potato” in politics has not been shy about speaking out against higher-profile Texas politicians in either party.
Should they also tell me if he wears glasses?
posted by hydra77 at 9:19 AM on June 2, 2022 [9 favorites]
...McLaughlin ... has called himself a “small potato” in politics has not been shy about speaking out against higher-profile Texas politicians in either party .
And what's the deal with the latter part of the sentence, anyway? It's unclear if the editorializing "has not been shy about" is attributable to McLaughlin or belongs to the reporter, but regardless it portrays this Republican politician as just a nonpartisan ordinary Joe.
And what does "has not been shy about speaking out against" mean, anyway? As a Republican politician, I'm sure he spends considerable time bashing Democrats -- and probably the usual bad-faith nonsense spewed by the Republican Party -- but what criticisms does he lodge against other Republicans? Without context, this flavor text is meaningless at best and misleading at worst, and shame on the reporter for either accepting the mayor's self description uncritically or worse, sneaking in that unfounded editorializing on their own.
posted by Gelatin at 10:46 AM on June 2, 2022 [6 favorites]
And what's the deal with the latter part of the sentence, anyway? It's unclear if the editorializing "has not been shy about" is attributable to McLaughlin or belongs to the reporter, but regardless it portrays this Republican politician as just a nonpartisan ordinary Joe.
And what does "has not been shy about speaking out against" mean, anyway? As a Republican politician, I'm sure he spends considerable time bashing Democrats -- and probably the usual bad-faith nonsense spewed by the Republican Party -- but what criticisms does he lodge against other Republicans? Without context, this flavor text is meaningless at best and misleading at worst, and shame on the reporter for either accepting the mayor's self description uncritically or worse, sneaking in that unfounded editorializing on their own.
posted by Gelatin at 10:46 AM on June 2, 2022 [6 favorites]
As an aside (a horrific aside, but nonetheless...) there was another mass shooting yesterday, this time in Oklahoma. I listened to bits of a press conference with the police chief, and to say he was throwing shade at the Uvalde police is an understatement.
posted by Thorzdad at 10:59 AM on June 2, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by Thorzdad at 10:59 AM on June 2, 2022 [3 favorites]
I dunno, as much as the chief is touting the Oklahoma response as 'working' (and it probably did) the fact is the shooter killed their target, some other people in the way, and then himself. Even a successful response seems… impotent.
posted by mazola at 11:36 AM on June 2, 2022 [10 favorites]
posted by mazola at 11:36 AM on June 2, 2022 [10 favorites]
It just got weirder. The mayor was on scene and intervening.
I feel like it's worth quoting this story to emphasize how weird it is:
It does sound just about plausible that perhaps by the time they'd brought in their "negotiator" they'd stopped hearing gunshots from inside the room? Because that's the only reason I can imagine they thought they had someone to negotiate with... but it still doesn't really add up.
posted by BungaDunga at 11:51 AM on June 2, 2022 [1 favorite]
I feel like it's worth quoting this story to emphasize how weird it is:
He found himself standing near an official he identified only as “the negotiator,” while frightened parents gathered outside the school and police waited well over an hour to storm the classroom.Darkly, this reminds me of a CollegeHumor sketch in which a hostage negotiator tries to pass off the gunshots coming down the phone line as "just fun snaps you bought at a joke store".
“His main goal was to try to get this person on the phone,” McLaughlin said in the interview, which was also conducted by Telemundo San Antonio. “They tried every number they could find,” but the gunman did not pick up the phone.
It does sound just about plausible that perhaps by the time they'd brought in their "negotiator" they'd stopped hearing gunshots from inside the room? Because that's the only reason I can imagine they thought they had someone to negotiate with... but it still doesn't really add up.
posted by BungaDunga at 11:51 AM on June 2, 2022 [1 favorite]
The Uvalde police are coordinating with biker gangs to corral journalists.
posted by peeedro at 2:30 PM on June 2, 2022 [9 favorites]
posted by peeedro at 2:30 PM on June 2, 2022 [9 favorites]
President Biden Address to Nation on Mass Shootings, C-SPAN, June 2, 2022.
posted by cenoxo at 5:00 PM on June 2, 2022
posted by cenoxo at 5:00 PM on June 2, 2022
Headline in The Atlantic struck a chord:
Only a Broken Society Would Focus on the Police Failures in Uvalde:
Only a Broken Society Would Focus on the Police Failures in Uvalde:
Without minimizing the police failures, though, I worry that too much focus on them risks eclipsing the bigger picture, which is that the gravest failures happened before the gunman arrived at the school and opened fire.posted by cheshyre at 7:33 PM on June 2, 2022 [4 favorites]
I don't know how to feel about that speech.
posted by tiny frying pan at 8:00 PM on June 2, 2022
posted by tiny frying pan at 8:00 PM on June 2, 2022
More evidence that "Democrats won't use the 'ask for double of what you'll accept' strategy" is how I feel. I've been reading a bit about slave morality lately, and reality seems to keep rhyming with it.
posted by rhizome at 8:20 PM on June 2, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by rhizome at 8:20 PM on June 2, 2022 [3 favorites]
To no one’s surprise, The NRA Statement in Response to Biden's Address, NRA Institute for Legal Action, Thursday, June 2, 2022 concludes:
Guns and ammo before children. Have you no shame (or blame), sirs?
posted by cenoxo at 6:25 AM on June 3, 2022 [2 favorites]
… instead of acting on functional measures and real solutions that when implemented will reduce crime and will help those with dangerous behavioral health issues, all that the President repeatedly proposes will only infringe on the rights of those law-abiding who have never, and will never, commit a crime. This isn’t a real solution, it isn’t true leadership, and it isn’t what America needs.Their full statement precedes in the article.
And, that’s a shame.
Guns and ammo before children. Have you no shame (or blame), sirs?
posted by cenoxo at 6:25 AM on June 3, 2022 [2 favorites]
For fuck’s sake, we’re back to guns don’t kill people, people kill people only with that extra special twist of shitting on people with mental health issues. Individuals like me with mental illness, apparently we are dangerous unlike, say ... guns. The NRA is bankrupt of new ideas as well as money.
posted by Bella Donna at 6:46 AM on June 3, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by Bella Donna at 6:46 AM on June 3, 2022 [8 favorites]
Here's one way the average person can help - if your representative holds a "town hall" in your area, show up and give them shit, like what happened to Iowa Senator Chuck Grassley.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:51 AM on June 3, 2022 [10 favorites]
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:51 AM on June 3, 2022 [10 favorites]
It's notable how a crowd of ordinary citizens are much more incredulous and much more inclined to push back against Grassley's sanctimonious, phony nonsense than most members of the so-called "liberal media."
posted by Gelatin at 8:34 AM on June 3, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by Gelatin at 8:34 AM on June 3, 2022 [7 favorites]
No Republican or right-wing organization has actually presented any ideas, right? They've only said that what Biden described aren't "functional" and "real" solutions?
posted by rhizome at 9:51 AM on June 3, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by rhizome at 9:51 AM on June 3, 2022 [1 favorite]
...which that Grassley article answers with a resounding "nothing."
posted by rhizome at 9:59 AM on June 3, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by rhizome at 9:59 AM on June 3, 2022 [1 favorite]
No Republican or right-wing organization has actually presented any ideas, right? They've only said that what Biden described aren't "functional" and "real" solutions?
Because the obvious and only solution is gun control. It's what other nations have that the US lacks. It's why every time there's one of these shootings, the right talks about "crisis actors" and "false flags" and "not politicizing the tragedy" -- because the obvious and only solution is gun control. They have no other answer, and they're desperate to change the subject.
posted by Gelatin at 10:08 AM on June 3, 2022 [5 favorites]
Because the obvious and only solution is gun control. It's what other nations have that the US lacks. It's why every time there's one of these shootings, the right talks about "crisis actors" and "false flags" and "not politicizing the tragedy" -- because the obvious and only solution is gun control. They have no other answer, and they're desperate to change the subject.
posted by Gelatin at 10:08 AM on June 3, 2022 [5 favorites]
(Sorry, we're supposed to say "gun safety" because the right has turned "gun control" into a knee-jerk no-go term, but we mean gun control and we ought to have it.)
posted by Gelatin at 10:10 AM on June 3, 2022
posted by Gelatin at 10:10 AM on June 3, 2022
It's notable how a crowd of ordinary citizens are much more incredulous and much more inclined to push back against Grassley's sanctimonious, phony nonsense than most members of the so-called "liberal media."
I hear ya, but I think that the media is a bit more strictly hampered by risks of libel and/or slander. A regular Jane Q. Public is free to respond to Grassley's mealy-mouthed excuse about how "procedure" is blocking progress by shouting "then stop filibustering it!" and she would be excused on the grounds that she's just expressing her opinion. But if a journalist were to do the same thing during an interview, they'd be accused of a lack of journalistic integrity at the very least.
I still think that the media is doing a piss-poor job, but at the same time I do get that the nature of their work calls on them to choose their words a bit more carefully when they speak.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:13 AM on June 3, 2022 [1 favorite]
I hear ya, but I think that the media is a bit more strictly hampered by risks of libel and/or slander. A regular Jane Q. Public is free to respond to Grassley's mealy-mouthed excuse about how "procedure" is blocking progress by shouting "then stop filibustering it!" and she would be excused on the grounds that she's just expressing her opinion. But if a journalist were to do the same thing during an interview, they'd be accused of a lack of journalistic integrity at the very least.
I still think that the media is doing a piss-poor job, but at the same time I do get that the nature of their work calls on them to choose their words a bit more carefully when they speak.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:13 AM on June 3, 2022 [1 favorite]
I hear you too, but the media seems much more cowed by a decades-long propaganda campaign accusing them of "liberal media bias" than any fear of libel or slander.
Libel only involves printing falsehoods. Pointing out that the Republicans choose to use the filibuster to impose a supermajority requirement that is nowhere in the Constitution is true, as would be pointing to any filibuster Grassley himself voted to uphold.
posted by Gelatin at 11:37 AM on June 3, 2022 [7 favorites]
Libel only involves printing falsehoods. Pointing out that the Republicans choose to use the filibuster to impose a supermajority requirement that is nowhere in the Constitution is true, as would be pointing to any filibuster Grassley himself voted to uphold.
posted by Gelatin at 11:37 AM on June 3, 2022 [7 favorites]
(The fact that Grassley and the Republicans objectively oppose gun control but don't want to appear to oppose gun control is as much an admission of the weakness of their position as talk of "not politicizing" or "crisis actors.")
posted by Gelatin at 11:39 AM on June 3, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by Gelatin at 11:39 AM on June 3, 2022 [2 favorites]
the obvious and only solution is gun control
Every time people want to add another law, it is important to ask: who will be enforcing that law? What will be the penalty for that law? What will that law be used for? Who will that law be largely used against?
I do not believe it is correct that the only and obvious solution to angry young men murdering children is an increase to the carceral state. Increasing the amount of laws that people can be imprisoned for, that require more armed police in order to enforce (who will, of course, primarily use them to brutalize black and brown communities) is not, in my view, the answer.
There are a lot of potential solutions to the stochastic white and white-adjacent male violence currently attacking children and adults throughout our nation, but they require more than just a one-shot solution. I recommend the excellent Abolition Democracy
Yes, those things take time. No, they won't solve the issue tomorrow. But they offer actual answers to the problem without causing more misery, because imprisonment is a crucible of human suffering, ongoing violence, murder, and destruction of the human souls that inhabit it and the ones who facilitate or allow it.
posted by corb at 11:53 AM on June 3, 2022 [9 favorites]
Every time people want to add another law, it is important to ask: who will be enforcing that law? What will be the penalty for that law? What will that law be used for? Who will that law be largely used against?
I do not believe it is correct that the only and obvious solution to angry young men murdering children is an increase to the carceral state. Increasing the amount of laws that people can be imprisoned for, that require more armed police in order to enforce (who will, of course, primarily use them to brutalize black and brown communities) is not, in my view, the answer.
There are a lot of potential solutions to the stochastic white and white-adjacent male violence currently attacking children and adults throughout our nation, but they require more than just a one-shot solution. I recommend the excellent Abolition Democracy
"Justice [is]attainable only through a more thorough transformation of our political, social, and economic lives. To realize justice in abolitionist terms thus entails a holistic engagement with the structural conditions that give rise to suffering, as well as the interpersonal dynamics involved in violence"We need - we desperately need - to address the entitlement of whiteness that is choking our BIPOC communities and literally killing people. Anything else is a bandaid and not even a particularly effective one. We need to create the institutions that will address economic disempowerment and inequity. We need to create robust communities where everyone feels valued and where the idea of murdering other parts of the community would be unthinkable. We need to create thorough and free mental health care for anyone who needs it.
Yes, those things take time. No, they won't solve the issue tomorrow. But they offer actual answers to the problem without causing more misery, because imprisonment is a crucible of human suffering, ongoing violence, murder, and destruction of the human souls that inhabit it and the ones who facilitate or allow it.
posted by corb at 11:53 AM on June 3, 2022 [9 favorites]
We need - we desperately need - to address the entitlement of whiteness that is choking our BIPOC communities and literally killing people.
I agree with this statement completely.
But other nations manage to keep military weapons out of the hands of civilians without becoming white supremacist hellholes. Just as one example, the penalty for owning an illegal weapon could simply be its confiscation. Also, gun control laws could be designed to affect the manufacturers that have profited off the sales of said military weapons (again as one example, lifting their immunity from lawsuits), which wouldn't affect individuals at all.
In addition, the Clinton-era assault weapon ban was effective, and mass shootings began increasing steadily after its (foolish) sunset clause kicked in.
So my response is basically, why not both?
posted by Gelatin at 12:00 PM on June 3, 2022 [8 favorites]
I agree with this statement completely.
But other nations manage to keep military weapons out of the hands of civilians without becoming white supremacist hellholes. Just as one example, the penalty for owning an illegal weapon could simply be its confiscation. Also, gun control laws could be designed to affect the manufacturers that have profited off the sales of said military weapons (again as one example, lifting their immunity from lawsuits), which wouldn't affect individuals at all.
In addition, the Clinton-era assault weapon ban was effective, and mass shootings began increasing steadily after its (foolish) sunset clause kicked in.
So my response is basically, why not both?
posted by Gelatin at 12:00 PM on June 3, 2022 [8 favorites]
These photos of a company making 18 small custom caskets are heartbreaking.
posted by bendy at 12:15 PM on June 3, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by bendy at 12:15 PM on June 3, 2022 [3 favorites]
No Radio, Old Tactics: How the Police Response in Uvalde Broke Down
(just a heads up, the back half of the article contains a description of the killings from Khloie Torres, one of the students in the room who survived)
(just a heads up, the back half of the article contains a description of the killings from Khloie Torres, one of the students in the room who survived)
Officers who arrived at the scene, coming from at least 14 different agencies, did not go into the classrooms as sporadic gunfire could be heard inside, nor after 911 calls began arriving from children inside.posted by BungaDunga at 12:20 PM on June 3, 2022 [6 favorites]
“There is a lot of bodies,” a 10-year-old student, Khloie Torres, quietly told a 911 dispatcher at 12:10 p.m. — 37 minutes after the gunman began shooting inside the classrooms — according to a review of a transcript of the call. “I don’t want to die, my teacher is dead, my teacher is dead, please send help, send help for my teacher, she is shot but still alive.”
She stayed on the line for about 17 minutes. Around 11 minutes into the call, the sound of gunfire could be heard.
The officers who finally breached the locked classrooms with a janitor’s key were not a formal tactical unit, according to a person briefed on the response. The officers, including specially trained Border Patrol and Immigration and Customs Enforcement agents and a sheriff’s deputy, formed an ad hoc group on their own and gathered in the hallway outside the classroom, a tense space where they said there appeared to be no chain of command.
We’ve seen what terrifies the carceral state. It’s people saying “defund the police” and standing in the street waving signs.
People with AR-15s do not terrify the carceral state. People with AR-15s are Kyle Rittenhouse, the Proud Boys and the Jan 6th rioters. They are considered allies.
posted by Artw at 12:46 PM on June 3, 2022 [8 favorites]
People with AR-15s do not terrify the carceral state. People with AR-15s are Kyle Rittenhouse, the Proud Boys and the Jan 6th rioters. They are considered allies.
posted by Artw at 12:46 PM on June 3, 2022 [8 favorites]
Yes, those things take time. No, they won't solve the issue tomorrow.
Shitload of dead kids in the meantime, seems like, just to keep gun owners happy. Poor solution, IMO.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 5:01 PM on June 3, 2022 [1 favorite]
Shitload of dead kids in the meantime, seems like, just to keep gun owners happy. Poor solution, IMO.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 5:01 PM on June 3, 2022 [1 favorite]
‘The World Moves On And You Don’t.’ Parents Who Lost Children in School Shootings Find Comfort in a Group No One Wants to Join, Belinda Luscombe & Haley Sweetland Edwards, TIME, November 29, 2018:
posted by cenoxo at 6:10 PM on June 3, 2022 [3 favorites]
…An invisible network of similar threads connects hundreds of grieving parents across America. The connection is not formal. There is no organizational structure, no listserv, no roster of names. But their bond is strong enough that they often describe themselves—glibly but also in earnest—as “the club.” There is only one criterion for membership: you sent a child to school one day and then never saw them again because of a bullet, leaving you with pain, loss and perhaps even other shattered children. “It’s a club you spend your whole life hoping you won’t ever become a part of,” says Nicole Hockley, whose son Dylan, 6, was killed in the December 2012 shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Connecticut. “But once you’re in, you’re in.More in the article.
…
This web of wounded souls spans America. They come from rural outposts and big cities, from Democratic strongholds and the reddest regions of Trump Country. They have different religions, income levels and ethnicities. What they share is the agony that comes with losing a child to gun violence in a place where that child was supposed to be safe. That calamity creates ineffable bonds.…
posted by cenoxo at 6:10 PM on June 3, 2022 [3 favorites]
I do not believe it is correct that the only and obvious solution to angry young men murdering children is an increase to the carceral state.
"all that the President repeatedly proposes will only infringe on the rights of those law-abiding who have never, and will never, commit a crime."
so, it's not a problem - if these laws are passed, the NRA has assured us its members will never commit a crime in defying them
posted by pyramid termite at 7:06 PM on June 3, 2022 [4 favorites]
"all that the President repeatedly proposes will only infringe on the rights of those law-abiding who have never, and will never, commit a crime."
so, it's not a problem - if these laws are passed, the NRA has assured us its members will never commit a crime in defying them
posted by pyramid termite at 7:06 PM on June 3, 2022 [4 favorites]
I do not believe it is correct that the only and obvious solution to angry young men murdering children is an increase to the carceral state.
I think that's unfair. If anything calls for legislation that carries criminal penalties for one thing or another, mass shootings, which only happen within Congress' jurisdiction, do.
posted by rhizome at 8:21 PM on June 3, 2022
I think that's unfair. If anything calls for legislation that carries criminal penalties for one thing or another, mass shootings, which only happen within Congress' jurisdiction, do.
posted by rhizome at 8:21 PM on June 3, 2022
“…the rights of those law-abiding [NRA members] who have never, and will never, commit a crime."
Violence Policy Center > Concealed Carry Killers > Florida:
Perhaps police should start asking gun crime suspects if they are, have ever been, or will be card-carrying members of the NRA (just for the record, of course).
posted by cenoxo at 8:46 PM on June 3, 2022 [1 favorite]
Violence Policy Center > Concealed Carry Killers > Florida:
Concealed Handgun Permit Holder: William Sherwood CONVICTEDThat’s one after few minutes of searching. How can there not be others in America’s past, present, or future?
Date: March 2013
People Killed: 1
Circumstances: In March 2013, concealed handgun permit holder William Sherwood, 65, shot and killed John Pratt, 64, following a traffic accident in Melbourne, Florida. According to news reports, Sherwood claimed that Pratt cut him off in traffic and repeatedly hit his brakes. Sherwood honked his horn, and “made a rude hand gesture.” Their cars collided as both attempted to make a right turn. Pratt got out of his vehicle and approached Sherwood’s door.
Sherwood, a lifetime member of the National Rifle Association, claimed that Pratt reached in and punched him which made him fear for his life. Sherwood then pulled a 45 caliber 1911 pistol and shot Pratt twice, killing him. Sherwood claimed he acted in self defense, but prosecutors argued Pratt had been at Sherwood’s window for no more than 10 seconds when he was shot. A police report cited witnesses who said that Pratt “did not have a weapon, appear aggressive, or attack the defendant.” On September 17, 2014, Sherwood was found guilty of second degree murder. He faces a minimum of 25 years in prison and could receive up to a life sentence.
Source: “Man found guilty in Brevard County road-rage killing case,” wftv.com, September 17, 2014; “Road-rage beating preceded shooting, defendant testifies,” floridatoday.com, September 12, 2014; “Road rage killer on trial in Brevard claims self-defense,” floridatoday.com, September 10, 2014.
Perhaps police should start asking gun crime suspects if they are, have ever been, or will be card-carrying members of the NRA (just for the record, of course).
posted by cenoxo at 8:46 PM on June 3, 2022 [1 favorite]
Just as one example, the penalty for owning an illegal weapon could simply be its confiscation. Also, gun control laws could be designed to affect the manufacturers that have profited off the sales of said military weapons (again as one example, lifting their immunity from lawsuits), which wouldn't affect individuals at all.
I am really interested in the brainstorming of laws and procedures that do not increase carceral processes. I have some concerns about civil forfeiture increasing police budgets and incentives, but think it could be designed so that not one penny of it went to the police and instead it went into investing in the social institutions that will be necessary if we are actually trying to invest in the communities most harmed.
I also think buyback programs have been enormously effective in other areas; one of the unintended consequences of it being very difficult to sell firearms is people tend to sit around with a lot of them when people die, change their minds, etc, and it is my belief that casually owned/forgotten guns generally become problem guns. (In kind of surreal news, the Junior's Cheesecake owner sponsored one recently that was apparently pretty successful and offered iPads for turn-in). Letting people turn in guns and getting tech that their kids can use seems pretty wonderful. Honestly, it's also kind of bleakly...on brand...that the NYPD offers a 10K bounty for turning in someone with an illegal gun for prosecution, but doesn't generally offer any incentives to just turn in the gun with an amnesty.
posted by corb at 1:15 AM on June 4, 2022 [4 favorites]
I am really interested in the brainstorming of laws and procedures that do not increase carceral processes. I have some concerns about civil forfeiture increasing police budgets and incentives, but think it could be designed so that not one penny of it went to the police and instead it went into investing in the social institutions that will be necessary if we are actually trying to invest in the communities most harmed.
I also think buyback programs have been enormously effective in other areas; one of the unintended consequences of it being very difficult to sell firearms is people tend to sit around with a lot of them when people die, change their minds, etc, and it is my belief that casually owned/forgotten guns generally become problem guns. (In kind of surreal news, the Junior's Cheesecake owner sponsored one recently that was apparently pretty successful and offered iPads for turn-in). Letting people turn in guns and getting tech that their kids can use seems pretty wonderful. Honestly, it's also kind of bleakly...on brand...that the NYPD offers a 10K bounty for turning in someone with an illegal gun for prosecution, but doesn't generally offer any incentives to just turn in the gun with an amnesty.
posted by corb at 1:15 AM on June 4, 2022 [4 favorites]
Guns in the U.S. – 2021 Second-Highest Year for Gun Sales Since 2000. Death Rate from Guns Rises 14 Percent During Pandemic, SafeHome.org Research, Feb 16, 2022:
This is SafeHome.org’s annual update on guns in the United States, including firearm background checks, estimated gun sales, gun-related deaths and crimes, and mass shooting events. For additional historical data, see our report covering Guns in the U.S. from 2000 to 2020.Additional info follows in the SafeHome.org Research article, including:
Gun Sales and Background Checks — Gun Sales in 2021
After a record year in 2020, gun sales in the U.S. dipped slightly in 2021. Still, with nearly 19 million guns sold, 2021 was the second-highest year for gun sales in the U.S. — behind only 2020, when estimated gun sales topped 21 million. The previous record year was 2016, with about 16 million guns sold. Total estimated gun sales fell 13 percent between 2020 and 2021, but they remained higher than they were in 2019 (up nearly 40 percent). The total number of guns sold in 2021 is more than double the number sold in 2001; in fact, sales in the U.S. rose by about 155 percent between 2002 and 2021.
[Line chart: click data points for year & number]
Estimated Number of Guns Sold in the United States By Year 2000–2022
[Inline table sorted by state (no direct link)]
| State | Total estimated guns sold in 2021 | Guns sold per adult aged 21+ |
…
- Percentage Change in Estimated Gun Sales by State, 2020-21 vs. 2002-21
- Gun Laws in the United States
- Guns Used in Crimes
- Police-Related Shootings
- Mass & School Shootings
- About This Data
So my response is basically, why not both?
For the same reason unarmed black people are killed and white mass murderers get taken to Burger King. Racist enforcement of ultra strict gun laws is going to bring the hammer down on everyone who's not white before the mass murderers even get a second look by the cops.
Nobody is saying we can't have our cake and eat it too, but that just indiscriminately bringing a larger hammer down is going to be way more miserable for a lot of people who don't pass as white. We already see this in cities which have stricter gun control laws. The police basically use punitive gun laws as a cudgel to arrest whatever black people they can, even when those black people are doing their best to obey the letter of those laws.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 11:27 AM on June 4, 2022 [10 favorites]
For the same reason unarmed black people are killed and white mass murderers get taken to Burger King. Racist enforcement of ultra strict gun laws is going to bring the hammer down on everyone who's not white before the mass murderers even get a second look by the cops.
Nobody is saying we can't have our cake and eat it too, but that just indiscriminately bringing a larger hammer down is going to be way more miserable for a lot of people who don't pass as white. We already see this in cities which have stricter gun control laws. The police basically use punitive gun laws as a cudgel to arrest whatever black people they can, even when those black people are doing their best to obey the letter of those laws.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 11:27 AM on June 4, 2022 [10 favorites]
The police basically use punitive gun laws as a cudgel to arrest whatever black people they can, even when those black people are doing their best to obey the letter of those laws.
They're going to do that anyway. They use laws against littering, jaywalking, loitering, sleeping, walking... They'll use any law imaginable against Black people, or even no law at all. Philando Castile didn't violate any law. Tamir Rice didn't violate any law. Trayvon Martin had the law violated against him and was still legally executed.
posted by Etrigan at 1:34 PM on June 4, 2022 [11 favorites]
They're going to do that anyway. They use laws against littering, jaywalking, loitering, sleeping, walking... They'll use any law imaginable against Black people, or even no law at all. Philando Castile didn't violate any law. Tamir Rice didn't violate any law. Trayvon Martin had the law violated against him and was still legally executed.
posted by Etrigan at 1:34 PM on June 4, 2022 [11 favorites]
THEN — A secret tape made after Columbine shows the NRA's evolution on school shootings, NPR Investigations, November 9, 2021:
posted by cenoxo at 4:46 AM on June 5, 2022 [9 favorites]
Soon after the Columbine High School shooting in 1999, senior leaders of the National Rifle Association huddled on a conference call to consider canceling their annual convention, scheduled just days later and a few miles away [in Denver].NOW — ‘Ignore Guns, Talk Inflation’: Memos Show GOP Strategy After the Uvalde Massacre, Asawin Suebsaeng, Rolling Stone, June 4, 2022:
Thirteen people lay dead at a high school in Colorado. More than 20 were injured. Images of students running from the school were looped on TV. The NRA strategists on the call sounded shaken and panicked as they pondered their next step into what would become an era of routine and horrific mass school shootings.
And in those private moments, the NRA considered a strikingly more sympathetic posture toward mass shootings than the uncompromising stance it has taken publicly in the decades since, even considering a $1 million fund to care for the victims.…
Stay cool. Run out the clock. Scare some gun nuts while you can. But don’t worry: this moment will be over soon.More NRA-inspired denial, distraction, and deception in the Rolling Stone article.
That’s the message the Republican Party, Donald Trump, and conservative leaders rapidly coalesced around after a series of mass shootings in recent weeks, including one at a Texas elementary school.
Several strategy memos and private communications, prepared for a variety of conservative candidates and organizations, reviewed by Rolling Stone in the days following the Uvalde school massacre were clear: change the topic to literally anything else, and let this news cycle run its course.
“Ignore guns, talk inflation,” one such memo, written for a top-tier GOP Senate candidate, succinctly reads, citing polling data of voter concerns ahead of the critical 2022 midterm elections. Other documents predictably decried liberal desires for “gun-grabbing” and “gun confiscation,” and made whataboutism-type references to gun violence in Chicago.
On Friday May 27th, three days after a gunman’s rampage at Robb Elementary School in Uvalde, Texas, the Republican National Committee distributed a memo of talking points and messaging advice to its surrogates and media allies….
posted by cenoxo at 4:46 AM on June 5, 2022 [9 favorites]
> Only a Broken Society Would Focus on the Police Failures in Uvalde:
I dunno, the coverup is remarkable in that it's so obvious and so cruel that it might keep this tragedy in the news just a few days longer. To wit, the hero mom that was briefly handcuffed, then breeched the police line to rescue her children from the school was threatened by law enforcement that she would face some kind of "obstruction of justice" for speaking to the media.
posted by peeedro at 5:09 PM on June 5, 2022 [5 favorites]
I dunno, the coverup is remarkable in that it's so obvious and so cruel that it might keep this tragedy in the news just a few days longer. To wit, the hero mom that was briefly handcuffed, then breeched the police line to rescue her children from the school was threatened by law enforcement that she would face some kind of "obstruction of justice" for speaking to the media.
posted by peeedro at 5:09 PM on June 5, 2022 [5 favorites]
bendy > I wish I could put my finger on the link to a news clip of Devin Nunez complaining to the interviewer after the Jan 6 insurrection about having to be subject to the inconvenience of going through a metal detector to get into the Capitol and the back-in-the-studio host pointing out that her kids went through metal detectors every day at school because Nunez and his cohort refuse to do anything about gun control.
Jimmy Kimmel’s slightly enhanced take on Devin Nunes’ whine (The Wrap, Jan 13, 2021: the Nunes video bit runs from about 5:45 - 7:20.)
posted by cenoxo at 5:55 AM on June 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
Jimmy Kimmel’s slightly enhanced take on Devin Nunes’ whine (The Wrap, Jan 13, 2021: the Nunes video bit runs from about 5:45 - 7:20.)
posted by cenoxo at 5:55 AM on June 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
Time to Put the “Good Guy With a Gun” Delusion Out of Its Misery — In the wake of the Uvalde massacre, political evasion and lying only get more desperate., Jeet Heer, The Nation, May 27, 2022:
*PDF download of Presence of Armed School Officials and Fatal and Nonfatal Gunshot Injuries During Mass School Shootings, United States, 1980-2019, published February 16, 2021.
posted by cenoxo at 6:45 AM on June 7, 2022 [9 favorites]
…Given the deaths of 19 children and two teachers, as well as the shooter, the event should have shaken up all sides of the gun debate: both Republicans (who oppose gun control) and Democrats (who support it in theory but are reluctant to fight a political battle they see as unwinnable).Turning schools into armed fortresses with one gate (what, no moat?) and armed teachers isn’t the answer. Sensible security measures and gun regulations (for that “well-regulated militia”) will work over the long term. There are no gun rights without responsibilities.
Uvalde should be a transformational event, because, as with the earlier shooting in a Buffalo Tops market (where a security guard was shot) and Stoneman Douglas High School (where the local police were criticized for failure to stop the shooting), it gives lie to one of the major arguments against gun control, the “good guy with a gun” mantra. This guy-lobby panacea was invented after the Sandy Hook massacre in 2012, when NRA head honcho Wayne LaPierre said, “The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun.”
At Uvalde, there were many supposed “good guys” with guns … The abject failure of the “good guys with guns” to do their job hasn’t stopped Republicans from continuing to try to deflect attention from gun control with the false promise of even more armed school security….
These strategies have been tried before and have failed. A 2021 peer-reviewed paper [*] that appeared on the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA) Open Network looked at 133 school shootings and concluded that, after controlling for “factors of location and school characteristics, the rate of deaths was 2.83 times greater in schools with an armed guard present.”…
*PDF download of Presence of Armed School Officials and Fatal and Nonfatal Gunshot Injuries During Mass School Shootings, United States, 1980-2019, published February 16, 2021.
posted by cenoxo at 6:45 AM on June 7, 2022 [9 favorites]
At Uvalde, there were many supposed “good guys” with guns…
It's probably the world record for the number of good guys with guns.
Would that the town was abandoned to the police department and government. I did a back of the napkin calculation for giving every teacher and every family with a child under the age of 18 $100,000 to move wherever they wanted, and it came out to $500MM. It's really probably less than half that, counting multiple child families. Pocket change for a politically mischevious Gen X/Y billionaire.
posted by rhizome at 11:55 AM on June 7, 2022
It's probably the world record for the number of good guys with guns.
Would that the town was abandoned to the police department and government. I did a back of the napkin calculation for giving every teacher and every family with a child under the age of 18 $100,000 to move wherever they wanted, and it came out to $500MM. It's really probably less than half that, counting multiple child families. Pocket change for a politically mischevious Gen X/Y billionaire.
posted by rhizome at 11:55 AM on June 7, 2022
Maybe 'good guys' are rarer than 'guys with guns'.
posted by mazola at 2:18 PM on June 7, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by mazola at 2:18 PM on June 7, 2022 [3 favorites]
Ohio to let teachers carry guns after 24 hours of training, Jonathan Allen, Reuters, June 3, 2022:
posted by cenoxo at 2:46 PM on June 7, 2022 [1 favorite]
Ohio is set to enact a law that allows teachers and other staff to be armed with guns in schools once they have completed up to 24 hours of initial training.More details in the article. See also Ohio’s response to Uvalde? Armed teachers and $117 million, Jake Zuckerman, Ohio Capitol Journal, June 6, 2022.
Proponents hope armed teachers will reduce the frequency and deadliness of school shootings, which have become recurrent in the United States. The bill's opponents, including teachers' unions and the state's main police officer union, say it will only make schools more dangerous for children.
The bill [House Bill 99] was finalized 10 days after a teenager with an AR-15-style rifle attacked a school in Uvalde, Texas. Nineteen students and two teachers were killed in the massacre. read more
Ohio Governor Mike DeWine, a Republican, has said he will sign the bill into law.
The bill was passed by the Republican-controlled Ohio General Assembly this week. It was designed to defuse a ruling last year by the Ohio Supreme Court that said a longstanding state law required teachers to complete more than 700 hours in a peace-officer training program before they could be armed with a gun on school premises….
posted by cenoxo at 2:46 PM on June 7, 2022 [1 favorite]
In other news,
New report ranks Texas last in access to mental health care.
posted by y2karl at 3:24 PM on June 7, 2022 [2 favorites]
New report ranks Texas last in access to mental health care.
posted by y2karl at 3:24 PM on June 7, 2022 [2 favorites]
Beau from a few years ago on why arming teachers is a terrible idea: https://youtu.be/1o1l2LQGyP8
posted by bink at 5:58 PM on June 7, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by bink at 5:58 PM on June 7, 2022 [2 favorites]
That informal video is worth watching. Shaking his head while speaking, he calls arming teachers a “…a band-aid on a bullet wound…”. He emphasizes repeatedly that any defensive measures taken by the school must be kept secret from students — especially who the armed teachers are — because the word will spread and become common knowledge, possibly to potential shooters. Guns, ammo, and inadequate training on school budgets, close-quarter combat firefights in school hallways (with no cover and panicked students), schools built like prisons, etc., etc., etc. This is where America is today.
posted by cenoxo at 7:19 PM on June 7, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by cenoxo at 7:19 PM on June 7, 2022 [3 favorites]
From Elie Mystal in The Nation:
The Disturbing Reason the Uvalde Police Won’t Be Held Accountable
With a follow up from Sherrilyn Ifill on Twitter.
posted by bcd at 7:32 AM on June 8, 2022 [3 favorites]
The Disturbing Reason the Uvalde Police Won’t Be Held Accountable
With a follow up from Sherrilyn Ifill on Twitter.
posted by bcd at 7:32 AM on June 8, 2022 [3 favorites]
Made the mistake of reading some of the testimony from today's hearing.
Fuck compromise. Fuck "common sense regulations". Start taking people's guns away now.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 8:23 AM on June 8, 2022 [2 favorites]
Fuck compromise. Fuck "common sense regulations". Start taking people's guns away now.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 8:23 AM on June 8, 2022 [2 favorites]
Australia-style bans should be the starting point in negotiations, and a full-on packing of the Supreme Court should be the recourse if Republicans don't want to play ball.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 8:49 AM on June 8, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by RonButNotStupid at 8:49 AM on June 8, 2022 [3 favorites]
Do you know who is REALLY terrified of AR-15s?
Law Enforcement. In Texas, all of those cops, in abject terror caused by the threat of a gunman with an AR-15 choose to let 19 kids die in a school along with the only 2 people who died trying to save them -- teachers.
posted by mikelieman at 1:22 PM on June 8, 2022 [10 favorites]
Law Enforcement. In Texas, all of those cops, in abject terror caused by the threat of a gunman with an AR-15 choose to let 19 kids die in a school along with the only 2 people who died trying to save them -- teachers.
posted by mikelieman at 1:22 PM on June 8, 2022 [10 favorites]
There's no good reason for non-military ARs, .223 is not a hunting caliber, it's a "tear unwanted things apart" caliber. The only hunting it's good for is what is known in the parlance as "varmints." Nothing you'd eat, nothing whose head you'd mount on your wall, nothing you'd pull their head up by the ears for a selfie. It's a caliber designed to destroy, and any rancher who is plinking groundhogs can do it with a lever action plenty quickly, no semiauto is necessary for that.
posted by rhizome at 2:02 PM on June 8, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by rhizome at 2:02 PM on June 8, 2022 [3 favorites]
C-SPAN, June 8, 2022 —
• Survivor & Families of NY & TX Shootings Testify on Gun Violence, Part 1posted by cenoxo at 9:19 PM on June 8, 2022 [4 favorites]
New York City Mayor Eric Adams joined the Buffalo police commissioner and other gun safety advocates to testify on what Congress can do to address gun violence in the nation following several mass shootings in the month of May alone. One of those shootings occurred at an elementary school in Uvalde, Texas. Nineteen children and two of their teachers died. A legal fellow with the Heritage Foundation also testified on why more gun restrictions are not the solution.
• Survivor & Families of NY & TX Shootings Testify on Gun Violence, Part 2
A student who survived the mass shooting in Uvalde, TX, along with the parents of a student who died and the family of a victim in the Buffalo, NY, supermarket shooting testify on gun violence before a House committee.
Where do we even go from here?
If we're lucky, Congress will pass extremely watered down bipartisan legislation which does little to address the problem. Because this is technically "something" everyone will pat themselves on the back and take this as a win because why wouldn't they? It's incremental progress! Except that the debt incurred by not doing anything is so great (and literally measured in lives lost) that it's really not worth celebrating especially since there's no guarantee that further progress will ever be made in our lifetimes even if we have another tragedy like Uvalde, or Buffalo, or Parkland, or Sandy Hook......
But if we're unlucky, nothing gets done and Republican legislators and jurists engage in another round of 'protecting' the second amendment by preemptively rolling back or challenging what little regulations already exist thereby making any future efforts of introducing gun control an even heavier lift.
I know there are many defenses of incrementalism--not letting the perfect get in the way of the good--but it seems like the choices here, as with so many other issues affecting our country, are "barely tread water" or "drown a little more" and it really bothers me that even after Uvalde, Buffalo, Parkland, Sandy Hook....the official debate in favor of additional gun control is still driven by a delusion that if only we don't offend gun owners and are as reasonable and respective of them as possible, they might give us permission to to make incremental progress towards our goal of getting back to where we were in 1994, and approach just isn't working.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 6:47 AM on June 9, 2022 [3 favorites]
If we're lucky, Congress will pass extremely watered down bipartisan legislation which does little to address the problem. Because this is technically "something" everyone will pat themselves on the back and take this as a win because why wouldn't they? It's incremental progress! Except that the debt incurred by not doing anything is so great (and literally measured in lives lost) that it's really not worth celebrating especially since there's no guarantee that further progress will ever be made in our lifetimes even if we have another tragedy like Uvalde, or Buffalo, or Parkland, or Sandy Hook......
But if we're unlucky, nothing gets done and Republican legislators and jurists engage in another round of 'protecting' the second amendment by preemptively rolling back or challenging what little regulations already exist thereby making any future efforts of introducing gun control an even heavier lift.
I know there are many defenses of incrementalism--not letting the perfect get in the way of the good--but it seems like the choices here, as with so many other issues affecting our country, are "barely tread water" or "drown a little more" and it really bothers me that even after Uvalde, Buffalo, Parkland, Sandy Hook....the official debate in favor of additional gun control is still driven by a delusion that if only we don't offend gun owners and are as reasonable and respective of them as possible, they might give us permission to to make incremental progress towards our goal of getting back to where we were in 1994, and approach just isn't working.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 6:47 AM on June 9, 2022 [3 favorites]
I don't like how much hope I am currently pinning on the fact that there was a dude with a gun caught outside Brett Kavanaugh's house recently.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:06 AM on June 9, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:06 AM on June 9, 2022 [3 favorites]
A pediatrician in Uvalde that day.
Every US Senator, every US Representative who has accepted donations from the NRA should be forced to look at the postmortem photos.
posted by TWinbrook8 at 7:55 AM on June 9, 2022 [10 favorites]
Every US Senator, every US Representative who has accepted donations from the NRA should be forced to look at the postmortem photos.
posted by TWinbrook8 at 7:55 AM on June 9, 2022 [10 favorites]
For the record, here’s the full testimony (click the “Read Full Testimony +” link below the lede) of Amy E. Swearer, Legal Fellow, Edwin Meese III Center for Legal and Judicial Studies, The Heritage Foundation (Wikipedia article) at the U.S. House of Representatives Committee on Oversight and Reform hearing , June 8, 2022.
posted by cenoxo at 9:48 AM on June 9, 2022
posted by cenoxo at 9:48 AM on June 9, 2022
From the linked testimony...
Fuck no. Anyone who thinks the solution includes "removing unnecessary barriers to the exercise of Second Amendment rights" needs to take a long hard look at some postmortem photos....
But then, we should have expected a hack from the Heritage Foundation to advocate for making things even worse.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 9:56 AM on June 9, 2022 [3 favorites]
D. Additional Avenues for Reducing Gun Violence
....
Removing unnecessary barriers to the exercise of Second Amendment rights by law-abiding citizens, who use their firearms in lawful defense of self or others somewhere between 500,000 to 3,000,000 times every year
Fuck no. Anyone who thinks the solution includes "removing unnecessary barriers to the exercise of Second Amendment rights" needs to take a long hard look at some postmortem photos....
But then, we should have expected a hack from the Heritage Foundation to advocate for making things even worse.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 9:56 AM on June 9, 2022 [3 favorites]
How A Uvalde Teacher Says Goodbye To Her Beloved Students
posted by peeedro at 2:44 PM on June 10, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by peeedro at 2:44 PM on June 10, 2022 [1 favorite]
Imagine thinking that three million people shooting fellow human beings each year is not just a good outcome, but that there are unnecessary barriers to shooting even more.
posted by Etrigan at 3:49 PM on June 10, 2022 [10 favorites]
posted by Etrigan at 3:49 PM on June 10, 2022 [10 favorites]
If you're in the business of selling bullets and have no soul, I suppose it makes sense.
posted by biogeo at 4:57 PM on June 10, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by biogeo at 4:57 PM on June 10, 2022 [1 favorite]
For anyone who didn't want to take the time to read the Heritage Foundation's deranged ranting, here's the TL;DR
They have four main points about gun violence and the wicket Left's proposals to end gun violence:
1) They want us to pretend that the problem exists because police are underfunded and prosecutors aren't putting more people in prison for life.
2) They think all the gun control measures proposed are emotion driven drivel and that "assault rifle" is a bigoted term.
3) They hate Universal Background Checks and argue that it's unconstitutional to require them.
4) Anything that restricts someone not yet convicted of a gun crime from buying any weapon at all is unconstitutional, irrational, and driven by emotion not reason.
They have a set of alternate proposals for how to fix gun violence:
1) Git Tuff on crime and put as many people in prison as possible for as long as possible.
2) Let schools divert COVID money to security (whatever that means).
3) Vague handwavy stuff about training everyone in how to "properly" distinguish between a mass shooter and a patriotic American exercising their 2A rights.
4) Vague handwavy stuff about mental health
5) Vague handwavy stuff about "encouraging" proper storage of firearms but not actually requiring it.
6) A repetition of the demand that the police arrest more (Black) people and put them in prison for longer.
7) Arming more "law abiding citizens" and encouraging gun carrying by same.
And that's the Heritage Foundation.
posted by sotonohito at 10:20 AM on June 11, 2022 [8 favorites]
They have four main points about gun violence and the wicket Left's proposals to end gun violence:
1) They want us to pretend that the problem exists because police are underfunded and prosecutors aren't putting more people in prison for life.
2) They think all the gun control measures proposed are emotion driven drivel and that "assault rifle" is a bigoted term.
3) They hate Universal Background Checks and argue that it's unconstitutional to require them.
4) Anything that restricts someone not yet convicted of a gun crime from buying any weapon at all is unconstitutional, irrational, and driven by emotion not reason.
They have a set of alternate proposals for how to fix gun violence:
1) Git Tuff on crime and put as many people in prison as possible for as long as possible.
2) Let schools divert COVID money to security (whatever that means).
3) Vague handwavy stuff about training everyone in how to "properly" distinguish between a mass shooter and a patriotic American exercising their 2A rights.
4) Vague handwavy stuff about mental health
5) Vague handwavy stuff about "encouraging" proper storage of firearms but not actually requiring it.
6) A repetition of the demand that the police arrest more (Black) people and put them in prison for longer.
7) Arming more "law abiding citizens" and encouraging gun carrying by same.
And that's the Heritage Foundation.
posted by sotonohito at 10:20 AM on June 11, 2022 [8 favorites]
Police underfunded? Police underfunded?
You know that thing where you can't tell if someone is disconnected from reality on a level that you can't even visualize, or if they're just massively, outrageously trolling?
posted by The Underpants Monster at 12:08 PM on June 13, 2022 [7 favorites]
You know that thing where you can't tell if someone is disconnected from reality on a level that you can't even visualize, or if they're just massively, outrageously trolling?
posted by The Underpants Monster at 12:08 PM on June 13, 2022 [7 favorites]
Texas Police Want Uvalde Bodycam Footage Suppressed Because It Could Expose Law Enforcement ‘Weakness’
Combine that with the cops offering up unprompted that they were confident all the children were shot by Ramos at that first press conference, and the admission that they original mistook a teacher for the shooter.
They might succeed in keeping it buried, but I expect the truth is at least some of the victims were actually shot by the cops.
posted by bcd at 4:52 PM on June 13, 2022 [8 favorites]
Combine that with the cops offering up unprompted that they were confident all the children were shot by Ramos at that first press conference, and the admission that they original mistook a teacher for the shooter.
They might succeed in keeping it buried, but I expect the truth is at least some of the victims were actually shot by the cops.
posted by bcd at 4:52 PM on June 13, 2022 [8 favorites]
Above, I wrote
Coincidentally, I just happened across a comment of mine from 2016 making this point quite clearly. The only thing that has changed over 8 years of mass shootings seems to be that I've grown more radical.
posted by biogeo at 9:38 PM on June 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
Ten years ago, if you'd asked me if we should abolish the Second Amendment, I would have answered like you, even after having watched my friends mourn the murder of their loved ones in classrooms at Virginia Tech.
Coincidentally, I just happened across a comment of mine from 2016 making this point quite clearly. The only thing that has changed over 8 years of mass shootings seems to be that I've grown more radical.
posted by biogeo at 9:38 PM on June 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
What's in the bipartisan gun deal and what's not (CNN, Monday, June 13, 2022) A bipartisan group of senators unveiled an agreement on principle for gun safety legislation Sunday, providing an overview of a forthcoming package of reforms to address one of the nation's most pressing and divisive issues in the wake of mass shootings in Buffalo, New York, and Uvalde, Texas. One of the biggest factors still to be sorted out in the framework agreement is how the legislation will be written. The announcement includes the support of 10 Republican senators, which would give the proposal enough support to overcome the Senate filibuster -- but maintaining it through the legislative process will be a massive challenge for lawmakers to accomplish before the next congressional recess in two weeks.
Reforms included in the agreement: 'Red flag' laws; Mental health and telehealth investment; Closing the so-called boyfriend loophole [*]; Enhanced review process for buyers under 21; Clarifying the definition of a Federally Licensed Firearm Dealer; School security resources
What lawmakers left out: Expanded background checks; Assault weapons ban; Higher minimum age of purchase
Why Closing the ‘Boyfriend Loophole’ Would Be a Huge Deal (New York Mag, June 15) Under federal law, people who have been convicted of misdemeanor domestic violence or who are subject to a final protective order are prohibited from owning or purchasing guns. But the ban only applies to spouses, those who share a child, and co-habitants — not dating partners. That yawning gap in the law is known as the “boyfriend loophole,” and the new gun bill, which looks likely but not certain to get through the Senate, would close it. This would be a very big deal. The CDC has found that more than half of all female homicides in the U.S. between 2003 and 2014 are related to domestic violence and that the most common weapon used is a gun. A landmark study by Jacquelyn Campbell found that abusers who have access to firearms are five times more likely to kill their partners. Research from Susan B. Sorenson, professor of social policy at the University of Pennsylvania, suggests that about half of the intimate-partner homicides in the U.S. are perpetrated by an unmarried partner.[...]
According to an analysis by Everytown for Gun Safety, in at least 53 percent of mass shootings between 2009 and 2020 (defined as any incident in which four or more people are shot and killed, excluding the shooter), the perpetrator shot an intimate partner or family member during their attack. Another study found that in 68 percent of mass shootings, the perpetrator either killed at least one partner or family member or had a history of domestic violence.
The headline & framing of this news article from earlier today caught my eye: Two police officers in California killed in ambush, authorities say (Reuters, June 15 2022) The officers, "a 22-year veteran, while the other had been a member of the police force for less than a year", were shot at a motel while responding to a domestic-violence call.
posted by Iris Gambol at 11:23 AM on June 15, 2022 [5 favorites]
Reforms included in the agreement: 'Red flag' laws; Mental health and telehealth investment; Closing the so-called boyfriend loophole [*]; Enhanced review process for buyers under 21; Clarifying the definition of a Federally Licensed Firearm Dealer; School security resources
What lawmakers left out: Expanded background checks; Assault weapons ban; Higher minimum age of purchase
Why Closing the ‘Boyfriend Loophole’ Would Be a Huge Deal (New York Mag, June 15) Under federal law, people who have been convicted of misdemeanor domestic violence or who are subject to a final protective order are prohibited from owning or purchasing guns. But the ban only applies to spouses, those who share a child, and co-habitants — not dating partners. That yawning gap in the law is known as the “boyfriend loophole,” and the new gun bill, which looks likely but not certain to get through the Senate, would close it. This would be a very big deal. The CDC has found that more than half of all female homicides in the U.S. between 2003 and 2014 are related to domestic violence and that the most common weapon used is a gun. A landmark study by Jacquelyn Campbell found that abusers who have access to firearms are five times more likely to kill their partners. Research from Susan B. Sorenson, professor of social policy at the University of Pennsylvania, suggests that about half of the intimate-partner homicides in the U.S. are perpetrated by an unmarried partner.[...]
According to an analysis by Everytown for Gun Safety, in at least 53 percent of mass shootings between 2009 and 2020 (defined as any incident in which four or more people are shot and killed, excluding the shooter), the perpetrator shot an intimate partner or family member during their attack. Another study found that in 68 percent of mass shootings, the perpetrator either killed at least one partner or family member or had a history of domestic violence.
The headline & framing of this news article from earlier today caught my eye: Two police officers in California killed in ambush, authorities say (Reuters, June 15 2022) The officers, "a 22-year veteran, while the other had been a member of the police force for less than a year", were shot at a motel while responding to a domestic-violence call.
posted by Iris Gambol at 11:23 AM on June 15, 2022 [5 favorites]
A pediatrician in Uvalde that day. [disturbing quote]
I didn’t find Elena, but what I did find was something no prayer will ever relieve. Two children, whose bodies had been so pulverized by the bullets fired at them, decapitated, whose flesh had been so ripped apart, that the only clue as to their identities was the blood spattered cartoon clothes still clinging to them.
posted by kirkaracha at 4:26 PM on June 15, 2022
Uvalde County District Attorney: 'I'm not investigating anything'
A wall of silence for six months at least.
posted by bcd at 4:12 PM on June 17, 2022 [1 favorite]
A wall of silence for six months at least.
posted by bcd at 4:12 PM on June 17, 2022 [1 favorite]
Texas Police Want Uvalde Bodycam Footage Suppressed Because It Could Expose Law Enforcement ‘Weakness’ 'Friendly Fire'
There, fixed it.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:24 PM on June 17, 2022 [2 favorites]
There, fixed it.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:24 PM on June 17, 2022 [2 favorites]
Uvalde County District Attorney: 'I'm not investigating anything'
Unless bodycam footage shows cops killing a kid, this is reasonable. Cops don't have to help you and the perpetrator is dead. Case closed.
This isn't a legal issue or controversy, it's a social one. They aren't going to get a good police department with convictions, they need leadership who give a shit. The mayor, the governor, everybody else on stage at that first presser should be ostracized by every resident to the point of public, self-abasing apologies.
posted by rhizome at 7:58 PM on June 17, 2022 [1 favorite]
Unless bodycam footage shows cops killing a kid, this is reasonable. Cops don't have to help you and the perpetrator is dead. Case closed.
This isn't a legal issue or controversy, it's a social one. They aren't going to get a good police department with convictions, they need leadership who give a shit. The mayor, the governor, everybody else on stage at that first presser should be ostracized by every resident to the point of public, self-abasing apologies.
posted by rhizome at 7:58 PM on June 17, 2022 [1 favorite]
This isn't a legal issue or controversy
Well not a criminal issue anyway. I think the argument that children being forced to be in school puts them in the custody of the state still has some legs. The state failing to protect people in custody definitely does.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 6:35 AM on June 18, 2022 [3 favorites]
Well not a criminal issue anyway. I think the argument that children being forced to be in school puts them in the custody of the state still has some legs. The state failing to protect people in custody definitely does.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 6:35 AM on June 18, 2022 [3 favorites]
I think the argument that children being forced to be in school puts them in the custody of the state still has some legs.
Not only that, but the fact that the police took exclusive control of the school, to the point of using force to keep parents out, implies a custodial relationship turning that time period. IANAL, but lawyers I respect have pointed that distinction out repeatedly.
(Which is not to disagree with rhizome above that it's primarily a social/political issue and can only ultimately be addressed in that venue.)
posted by bcd at 8:16 AM on June 18, 2022 [2 favorites]
Not only that, but the fact that the police took exclusive control of the school, to the point of using force to keep parents out, implies a custodial relationship turning that time period. IANAL, but lawyers I respect have pointed that distinction out repeatedly.
(Which is not to disagree with rhizome above that it's primarily a social/political issue and can only ultimately be addressed in that venue.)
posted by bcd at 8:16 AM on June 18, 2022 [2 favorites]
DAs are (de facto) cops. Not surprising that the wolf wearing business attire is not going to investigate the wolf wearing a badge.
posted by CPAnarchist at 2:00 PM on June 18, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by CPAnarchist at 2:00 PM on June 18, 2022 [2 favorites]
Source: Police never tried to open door to classrooms where Uvalde gunman had kids trapped
posted by Etrigan at 3:50 PM on June 18, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by Etrigan at 3:50 PM on June 18, 2022 [3 favorites]
Never tried the doors, and it based on witness reports, neither door was ever locked. It just gets worse and worse.
posted by bcd at 9:13 PM on June 18, 2022
posted by bcd at 9:13 PM on June 18, 2022
Sen John Cornyn (R-TX), in the most unsurprising event in the entire history of the universe, has declared that nope, he won't actually vote for the watered down milquetoast gun bill that he swore he and 9 other Republican Senators would vote for so it could pass.
Republicans never negotiate in good faith.
But there's the Democrats, out there eternally playing Charlie Brown to their Lucy with the bipartisanship football.
And, because apparently voting for almost everything the NRA has ever wanted isn't quite enough, Rep Dan Crenshaw (R-TX) was mocked as "Eyepatch McCain" and physically assaulted by right wing zealots for being insufficiently right wing. It is uncertain if it was his tentative support for Ukrainian resistance to the Russian invasion or his even more tentative support for expanding background checks for gun purchases, or some combination of those factors, that provoked the attack.
The American right is in full mobilization against any gun restrictions, however tiny and seemingly non-controversial they would be for anyone else.
posted by sotonohito at 11:06 AM on June 19, 2022 [5 favorites]
Republicans never negotiate in good faith.
But there's the Democrats, out there eternally playing Charlie Brown to their Lucy with the bipartisanship football.
And, because apparently voting for almost everything the NRA has ever wanted isn't quite enough, Rep Dan Crenshaw (R-TX) was mocked as "Eyepatch McCain" and physically assaulted by right wing zealots for being insufficiently right wing. It is uncertain if it was his tentative support for Ukrainian resistance to the Russian invasion or his even more tentative support for expanding background checks for gun purchases, or some combination of those factors, that provoked the attack.
The American right is in full mobilization against any gun restrictions, however tiny and seemingly non-controversial they would be for anyone else.
posted by sotonohito at 11:06 AM on June 19, 2022 [5 favorites]
Sen John Cornyn (R-TX), in the most unsurprising event in the entire history of the universe, has declared that nope, he won't actually vote for the watered down milquetoast gun bill that he swore he and 9 other Republican Senators would vote for so it could pass.
Gah, I heard a Mitch/Schumer-quoting story about this last night and thought to myself, "it's gotta be a piece of crap if Mitch is a yes," and that the DEMS should blow it up with extra demands like Rs always do. But Cornyn beat me to the punch, dammit.
posted by rhizome at 11:36 AM on June 19, 2022 [1 favorite]
Gah, I heard a Mitch/Schumer-quoting story about this last night and thought to myself, "it's gotta be a piece of crap if Mitch is a yes," and that the DEMS should blow it up with extra demands like Rs always do. But Cornyn beat me to the punch, dammit.
posted by rhizome at 11:36 AM on June 19, 2022 [1 favorite]
Re: Uvalde mass murder (less than a month ago), Sen. John Cornyn (R-TX), & Rep. Dan Crenshaw (R-TX)
The Texas GOP's Report of the Permanent 2022 Platform & Resolutions Committee, out yesterday, is 40 pages. Summarized by "Letters from an American, with added bolding and breaks: "[...] delegates to a convention of the Texas Republican Party today approved platform planks
rejecting “the certified results of the 2020 Presidential election, and [holding] that acting President Joseph Robinette Biden Jr. was not legitimately elected by the people of the United States”;
requiring students “to learn about the dignity of the preborn human,” including that life begins at fertilization;
treating homosexuality as “an abnormal lifestyle choice”;
locking the number of Supreme Court justices at 9;
getting rid of the constitutional power to levy income taxes;
abolishing the Federal Reserve;
rejecting the Equal Rights Amendment;
returning Christianity to schools and government;
ending all gun safety measures;
abolishing the Department of Education;
arming teachers;
requiring colleges to teach “free-market liberty principles”;
defending capital punishment;
dictating the ways in which the events at the Alamo are remembered;
protecting Confederate monuments;
ending gay marriage;
withdrawing from the United Nations and the World Health Organization; and
calling for a vote “for the people of Texas to determine whether or not the State of Texas should reassert its status as an independent nation."
posted by Iris Gambol at 12:41 PM on June 19, 2022 [3 favorites]
The Texas GOP's Report of the Permanent 2022 Platform & Resolutions Committee, out yesterday, is 40 pages. Summarized by "Letters from an American, with added bolding and breaks: "[...] delegates to a convention of the Texas Republican Party today approved platform planks
rejecting “the certified results of the 2020 Presidential election, and [holding] that acting President Joseph Robinette Biden Jr. was not legitimately elected by the people of the United States”;
requiring students “to learn about the dignity of the preborn human,” including that life begins at fertilization;
treating homosexuality as “an abnormal lifestyle choice”;
locking the number of Supreme Court justices at 9;
getting rid of the constitutional power to levy income taxes;
abolishing the Federal Reserve;
rejecting the Equal Rights Amendment;
returning Christianity to schools and government;
ending all gun safety measures;
abolishing the Department of Education;
arming teachers;
requiring colleges to teach “free-market liberty principles”;
defending capital punishment;
dictating the ways in which the events at the Alamo are remembered;
protecting Confederate monuments;
ending gay marriage;
withdrawing from the United Nations and the World Health Organization; and
calling for a vote “for the people of Texas to determine whether or not the State of Texas should reassert its status as an independent nation."
posted by Iris Gambol at 12:41 PM on June 19, 2022 [3 favorites]
Seems like the Texas GOP platform violates the insurrection act and any signatory to that platform is therefore barred under the 14th Amendment from holding elected office in the United States. Time for some Texas voters to start a lawsuit to toss these guys form office.
posted by interogative mood at 4:40 PM on June 19, 2022 [12 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 4:40 PM on June 19, 2022 [12 favorites]
Tweets from Austin Statesman reporter Tony Plohetski:
posted by peeedro at 5:19 PM on June 20, 2022 [8 favorites]
BREAKING: Multiple officers were inside Robb Elementary School with rifles and at least one ballistic shield at 11:52 a.m. the day of the shooting, new video and other evidence shows. They didn’t enter the classroom for another 58 minutes....Investigators believe this is significant because it indicates they had more than enough firepower and protection to enter the classroom before they did. Officers were growing impatient far sooner: “If there’s kids in there we need to go in there,” one said on body camera video.Includes a screencap from school surveillance camera showing a bunch of cops standing around in a hallway with a ballistic shield leaning up against a wall.
posted by peeedro at 5:19 PM on June 20, 2022 [8 favorites]
"If there’s kids in there"?!? They were in an elementary school, outside a classroom, with multiple kids calling 911.
posted by Iris Gambol at 6:19 PM on June 20, 2022 [9 favorites]
posted by Iris Gambol at 6:19 PM on June 20, 2022 [9 favorites]
I don’t think they were expressing doubt as much as stating a moral imperative.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 6:54 AM on June 21, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 6:54 AM on June 21, 2022 [2 favorites]
From Artw's link:
Even in the most charitable, most generous reading of this horrific situation it sounds like an absolute shitshow of mismanagement and miscommunication. Did the officers on the scene somehow not realise there were kids in there with him and thought he was alone and barricaded? Why didn't they try the doors? Why were they constantly waiting and standing around?
posted by fight or flight at 8:22 AM on June 21, 2022 [4 favorites]
A standoff had begun. The gunman fired shots at least three more times — at 11:40 a.m., 11:44 a.m., and 12:21 p.m. — but officers held their positions. That was true even as more police filed in and four ballistic shields were carried into the building over the next 40 minutes.I wonder if Ruiz tried rushing the classroom and was held back by officers. I wouldn't be surprised if footage of that mysteriously didn't turn up.
The officers who entered the school at that time included DPS troopers who walked into the hallway before noon and then left after seeing how many officers were already there.
[...]
Another officer who entered the hallway was Ruben Ruiz of the Uvalde city police. His wife, teacher Eva Mireles, had called him on his cellphone and told him she was bleeding heavily.
“She says she is shot,” he told the officers on the scene.
The video from inside the hallway doesn’t capture what Ruiz did inside the school. But a DPS official told the Tribune that Ruiz was soon escorted away by other officers on the scene.
Even in the most charitable, most generous reading of this horrific situation it sounds like an absolute shitshow of mismanagement and miscommunication. Did the officers on the scene somehow not realise there were kids in there with him and thought he was alone and barricaded? Why didn't they try the doors? Why were they constantly waiting and standing around?
He said he didn’t consider himself the incident commander that day and never issued orders to anyone during the shooting. Yet at 11:50 a.m., according to body-camera transcripts, an officer says, “The chief is in charge.”Not one of these officers deserves to keep their badge. They all have blood on their hands.
Arredondo said he intentionally left behind his radios, which he said were cumbersome and had a habit of not working well from inside the school, but he did ask for someone to bring them to him when he called police dispatch. He also requested a SWAT team, snipers and a door-breaching tool. (It’s not clear if he’d heard that a Halligan was available.) By noon, officers had rifles, a Halligan and at least one ballistic shield — yet made no attempt to enter the classrooms for 50 minutes.
[...]
The classroom doors are supposed to lock automatically, but from the start, the shooter could be seen walking unobstructed into the room and then darting easily in and out at least three times. The footage caused some authorities who watched it to question whether the doors were ever locked.
posted by fight or flight at 8:22 AM on June 21, 2022 [4 favorites]
Updated Timeline
(Source: DPS Director McCraw, 2022-06-21)
(Source: DPS Director McCraw, 2022-06-21)
This timeline has been CONDENSED and times are APPROXIMATIONSposted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 8:57 AM on June 21, 2022 [1 favorite]
11:28:25 — Suspect crashes vehicle into ditch
11:29:02 — Two males from funeral home move toward crash
11:29:20 — Teacher calls 911 and reports and man with a gun
11:31:36 — Suspect shooting in between vehicle at school
11:31:43 — Patrol car accelerates into school parking lot, drives by shooter
11:32:08 — Multiple shots fired by suspect while outside the school
11:33:00 — Suspect Enters the school through the west door
11:33:24 — Suspect begins shooting into classroom 111/112 from hallway
11:33:32 — Suspect enters, exits, and re-enters room 111/112
11:35:55 — 3 Uvalde PD Officers enter west door (including 2 rifles)
11:36:00 — 2 UCISD officers (including Chief Arredondo) and 2 Uvalde PD officers enter through the south door
11:36:03 — 3 Uvalde PD officers and 1 UCISD officer enter through west door
11:37:00 — Suspect gunfire injuring officers approaching classroom doors
11:38:37 — Unknown Officer: "He's contained in this office."
11:40:23 — Chief Arredondo calls Uvalde PD landline
11:40:58 — Suspect Gunfire (1 round)
11:41:08 — Uvalde PD Officer: "We believe that he is barricaded in one of the offices, there's still shooting."
11:41:30 — Dispatch asks if door is locked, to which a Uvalde PD Officer replies, "I am not sure but we have a hooligan to break it."
11:41:55 — 4 First Responders enter from the east hallway: 2 Constables, Fire Marshal, UPD Officer
11:42:24 — 1 DPS Trooper and 2 UPD Officers enter from east hallway
11:44:00 — Suspect Gunfire (1 round)
11:44:28 — Uvalde PD Officer: "Have some officers that are available get everybody back."
11:48:18 — UCISD Officer Ruben Ruiz, husband of one of the teachers in the classroom, enters the west door and is heard telling officers, "She says she is shot."
11:50:53 — Unknown officer says, "They need to get out of the hallway," to which Uvalde PD Officer responds, "Chief is in there, Chief is in charge right now hold on."
11:51:13 — 7 Border Patrol Agents enter the west door
11:52:08 — FIRST ballistic shield enters the west door
11:52:49 — UPD Officer: "Units just showing up can you help with crowd control."
11:53:10 — Unknown officer informs a DPS Special Agent that all they need right now is perimeter. Someone comments about whether there are still kids inside to which the DPS Special Agent responds, "If there is then they just need to go in."
11:54:14 — DPS Special Agent enters the west building and is directed on where the suspect focus is. He asks an unknown officer, "Are kids still in there?" The unknown officer responds, "It is unknown at this time."
11:54:15 — Uvalde PD Officer: "He's in dassroom 111 or 112. But Chief is making contact with him. No one has made contact with him."
11:56:49 — Unknown Officer: "Y'all don't know if there's kids in there?" DPS SA: "If there's kids in there, we need to go in there." Unknown Officer: "What's that?" DPS SA: "If there's kids in there, we need to go in there." Unknown Officer: "Whoever is in charge will determine that."
11:56:52 — PD Channel Recording: "Again it is critical for everybody to let PD take point on this."
11:58:12 — After an unknown officer asks where the shooter is, another unknown officer advises, "The school chief of police is in there with him."
11:58:24 — DPS SA says, "It sounds like a hostage rescue situation. Sounds like a [undercover] rescue, they should probably go in."
12:01:13 — DPS SA indicates he wants to go clear more rooms. An unknown Officer replies, "Don't you think we should have a supervisor approve that?" to which DPS SA replies, "He's not my supervisor."
12:03:50 — 911 call from student inside the classroom begins
12:03:51 — SECOND ballistic shield enters the west door
12:04:16 — THIRD ballistic shield enters the west door
12:09:24 — Uvalde PD Officer: "Go around and get the master key to the rooms."
12:10:21 — Elements of BORTAC begin arriving at elementary school
12:11:00 — Uvalde ISD Chief Arredondo requests master key
12:14:45 — Uvalde ISD Chief Arredondo gives instructions to officers to have a sniper on the east roof
12:15:27 — BORTAC Member arrives in west building
12:16:24 — Uvalde ISD Chief Arredondo: "I just need a key."
12:17:22 — Uvalde ISD Chief Arredondo: "Tell them to fucking wait. No one comes in."
12:20:46 — FOURTH ballistic shield enters west door
12:21:08 — Suspect gunfire (4 rounds)
12:21:30 — Uvalde ISD Chief Arredondo: "Can you go get a breaching tool? Like for a trailer house?"
12:23:21 — Uvalde ISD Chief Arredondo: "We've lost two kids. These walls are thin. If he starts shooting we're going to lose more kids. Hate to say we have to put those to the side right now."
12:24:00 — Uvalde ISD Chief Arredondo attempts to communicate with the suspect in English and Spanish.
12:26:14 — Unknown officer, "There's a teacher shot in there," to which a Uvalde PD Officer replies, "I know."
12:27:08 — Uvalde ISD Chief Arredondo: "People are going to ask why we're taking so long. We're trying to preserve the rest of the life."
12:27:29 — Uvalde ISD Chief Arredondo: "Do we have a team ready to go? Do we have a team ready to go? Have at it."
12:28:21 — Uvalde ISD Chief Arredondo: "There is a window over there obviously. The door is probably going to be locked. That is the nature of this place. Am going to get some more keys to test."
12:28:53 — Uvalde ISD Chief Arredondo: "These master keys aren't working here, bro. We have master keys and they're not working."
12:30:00 — Uvalde ISD Chief Arredondo: "Okay. We've cleared out everything except for that room. We still have people down there just past the flag to the right. But, uh, we're ready to breach but that door is locked."
12:33:44 — Uvalde ISD Chief Arredondo: "I say we breach through those windows and shoot his fucking head off through the windows."
12:35:39 — Hooligan breaching tool enters west door
12:38:20 — Uvalde ISD Chief Arredondo attempts to communicate with the suspect in English and Spanish.
12:41:58 — Uvalde ISD Chief Arredondo: "Just so you understand, we think there are some injuries in there. And so you know what we did, we cleared off the rest of the building so we wouldn't have anymore besides what's already in there, obviously."
12:42:11 — Uvalde ISD Chief Arredondo: "We're having a fucking problem getting into the room because it is locked. He's got an AR-15 and he's shooting everywhere like crazy. So, he's stopped."
12:43:20 — Uvalde ISD Chief Arredondo: "They gotta get that fucking door open, bro. They can't get that door open. We need more keys or something."}
12:46:18 — Uvalde ISD Chief Arredondo: "If ya'll are ready to do it, you do it but you should distract him out that window."
12:47:57 — Sledge Hammer enters from east hallway
12:50:03 — Breach and termination gunfire
----
Time from police entry to final termination = 1 hour 14 minutes, 8 seconds
On the very minimal plus side nothing to indicate they shot a kid. Yet.
posted by Artw at 9:09 AM on June 21, 2022
posted by Artw at 9:09 AM on June 21, 2022
Even in the most charitable, most generous reading of this horrific situation it sounds like an absolute shitshow of mismanagement and miscommunication. Did the officers on the scene somehow not realise there were kids in there with him and thought he was alone and barricaded? Why didn't they try the doors? Why were they constantly waiting and standing around?
This reads to me like there are a few additional questions I really want the answers to.
1. Are there no clear jurisdictional rules for who has command in an area with multiple types of police forces? If not, why not?
2. Are there no procedures for relieving a senior police officer of command for - I don't know how to phrase this in civilian terms but - cowardice in the face of the enemy?
3. Do police not have clear procedures for determining who is next in command?
It seems really clear to me that Arredondo had command and that he was misusing said command either in order to protect his own skin and avoid the kill zone of a doorway while kids died, or to protect his position by avoiding police going into said kill zone and dying, while kids died.
posted by corb at 9:18 AM on June 21, 2022 [4 favorites]
This reads to me like there are a few additional questions I really want the answers to.
1. Are there no clear jurisdictional rules for who has command in an area with multiple types of police forces? If not, why not?
2. Are there no procedures for relieving a senior police officer of command for - I don't know how to phrase this in civilian terms but - cowardice in the face of the enemy?
3. Do police not have clear procedures for determining who is next in command?
It seems really clear to me that Arredondo had command and that he was misusing said command either in order to protect his own skin and avoid the kill zone of a doorway while kids died, or to protect his position by avoiding police going into said kill zone and dying, while kids died.
posted by corb at 9:18 AM on June 21, 2022 [4 favorites]
The initial interpretation, that the police sacrificed a room of schoolchildren out of fear of an AR-15, continues to hold up.
posted by Artw at 10:03 AM on June 21, 2022 [18 favorites]
posted by Artw at 10:03 AM on June 21, 2022 [18 favorites]
It's become apparent to me that only a comprehensive report will clear up all the ambiguity. I'm loathe to conclude anything at this point.
Having made that disclaimer, I will say that from the new timeline it looks to me like from when Arredondo arrived on-scene he was under the mistaken impression that the door entered an office, not a classroom, and that this misunderstanding of his wasn't rectified for a good while — at some point he was told about the 911 calls and knew there were children in there. But, apparently, not during that crucial early period. My guess is that having chosen a course of action on that basis, he had difficulty adjusting and, similarly, so did the rest of the law enforcement officers involved.
Note that there are numerous hints that some officers on the scene were better informed.
In aviation safety, there's a concept/model called "crew resource management". It was developed in response to an analysis of aviation accidents that found many were caused by a lack of communication and coordination among the cockpit crew in aviation emergencies. CRM emphasizes clear communication, clear division of responsibilities, coordination, and encouraging subordinate crew to speak up with any concerns. (A fear of a junior pilot contradicting a senior pilot has sadly contributed to numerous aviation accidents.)
The CRM approach has been adopted beyond aviation, particularly in similarly dire circumstances such as in operating rooms and firefighting.
It's pretty clear from this timeline that all the problems that CRM is intended to address were in full bloom in Uvalde.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 10:44 AM on June 21, 2022 [5 favorites]
Having made that disclaimer, I will say that from the new timeline it looks to me like from when Arredondo arrived on-scene he was under the mistaken impression that the door entered an office, not a classroom, and that this misunderstanding of his wasn't rectified for a good while — at some point he was told about the 911 calls and knew there were children in there. But, apparently, not during that crucial early period. My guess is that having chosen a course of action on that basis, he had difficulty adjusting and, similarly, so did the rest of the law enforcement officers involved.
Note that there are numerous hints that some officers on the scene were better informed.
In aviation safety, there's a concept/model called "crew resource management". It was developed in response to an analysis of aviation accidents that found many were caused by a lack of communication and coordination among the cockpit crew in aviation emergencies. CRM emphasizes clear communication, clear division of responsibilities, coordination, and encouraging subordinate crew to speak up with any concerns. (A fear of a junior pilot contradicting a senior pilot has sadly contributed to numerous aviation accidents.)
The CRM approach has been adopted beyond aviation, particularly in similarly dire circumstances such as in operating rooms and firefighting.
It's pretty clear from this timeline that all the problems that CRM is intended to address were in full bloom in Uvalde.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 10:44 AM on June 21, 2022 [5 favorites]
It's become apparent to me that only a comprehensive report will clear up all the ambiguity. I'm loathe to conclude anything at this point.
Whatever (further) facts emerge, the police have known them the entire time.
This reads to me like there are a few additional questions I really want the answers to.
Those questions would seem to be irrelevant in light of the active-shooter training the police conducted at that very school two months before the shooting. Arredondo is culpable, sure, but it doesn't end there.
posted by rhizome at 1:12 PM on June 21, 2022 [5 favorites]
Whatever (further) facts emerge, the police have known them the entire time.
This reads to me like there are a few additional questions I really want the answers to.
Those questions would seem to be irrelevant in light of the active-shooter training the police conducted at that very school two months before the shooting. Arredondo is culpable, sure, but it doesn't end there.
posted by rhizome at 1:12 PM on June 21, 2022 [5 favorites]
Expanding a bit on what's in some of the timeline info shared above: Police could have stopped Uvalde shooting within 3 minutes, a Texas official says.
"A top Texas law enforcement official said that there were enough armed police officers wearing body armor to stop the late May shooting at Robb Elementary School in Uvalde, Texas three minutes after it began.
But instead, it took about an hour and 14 minutes from when officers arrived at the school to when they breached the door and ended the standoff with the gunman."
Jesus.
posted by lord_wolf at 1:46 PM on June 21, 2022 [7 favorites]
"A top Texas law enforcement official said that there were enough armed police officers wearing body armor to stop the late May shooting at Robb Elementary School in Uvalde, Texas three minutes after it began.
But instead, it took about an hour and 14 minutes from when officers arrived at the school to when they breached the door and ended the standoff with the gunman."
Jesus.
posted by lord_wolf at 1:46 PM on June 21, 2022 [7 favorites]
=========== NEW THREAD ==================
courtesy of kirkaracha, it's: They didn't even try the door
posted by Iris Gambol at 2:48 PM on June 21, 2022 [1 favorite]
courtesy of kirkaracha, it's: They didn't even try the door
posted by Iris Gambol at 2:48 PM on June 21, 2022 [1 favorite]
Police could have stopped Uvalde shooting within 3 minutes, a Texas official says.
It's as bad as we already think, there's no other way it can be. At the end of the day they didn't do the thing. Police are supposed to do the thing. They knew the thing needed to be done. It did not get done. Arrive, open the door, shoot the bad guy. No chain of command necessary.
The Sandy Hook shooter fired over 150 shots in five minutes and was dead by the time police arrived. Virginia Tech and Las Vegas were similar. Pulse Nightclub had a bit more police engagement than Uvalde, but involved similar reticence to rush in and wound up being a hostage situation for a few hours. Luby's was a standoff before the guy was taken out by a sniper. This is just from a few minutes of searching, but I wonder if there's a pattern where police won't go in right away unless they know the shooter is already dead.
posted by rhizome at 2:08 AM on June 22, 2022 [1 favorite]
It's as bad as we already think, there's no other way it can be. At the end of the day they didn't do the thing. Police are supposed to do the thing. They knew the thing needed to be done. It did not get done. Arrive, open the door, shoot the bad guy. No chain of command necessary.
The Sandy Hook shooter fired over 150 shots in five minutes and was dead by the time police arrived. Virginia Tech and Las Vegas were similar. Pulse Nightclub had a bit more police engagement than Uvalde, but involved similar reticence to rush in and wound up being a hostage situation for a few hours. Luby's was a standoff before the guy was taken out by a sniper. This is just from a few minutes of searching, but I wonder if there's a pattern where police won't go in right away unless they know the shooter is already dead.
posted by rhizome at 2:08 AM on June 22, 2022 [1 favorite]
This is just from a few minutes of searching, but I wonder if there's a pattern where police won't go in right away unless they know the shooter is already dead.
There's a saying among police - "better judged by twelve than carried by six."
Which says it all.
posted by NoxAeternum at 2:22 AM on June 22, 2022 [2 favorites]
There's a saying among police - "better judged by twelve than carried by six."
Which says it all.
posted by NoxAeternum at 2:22 AM on June 22, 2022 [2 favorites]
It's become apparent to me that only a comprehensive report will clear up all the ambiguity.
Given the quality (or lack thereof) of the information so far I see no reason a report would clean up ambiguity. Poor information + more poor information = poor information.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 2:24 PM on June 22, 2022 [1 favorite]
Given the quality (or lack thereof) of the information so far I see no reason a report would clean up ambiguity. Poor information + more poor information = poor information.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 2:24 PM on June 22, 2022 [1 favorite]
There's a saying among police - "better judged by twelve than carried by six."
Also: the first rule of policing: make it home for dinner.
posted by rhizome at 10:51 PM on June 22, 2022
Also: the first rule of policing: make it home for dinner.
posted by rhizome at 10:51 PM on June 22, 2022
The Supreme Court just struck down laws requiring licenses to carry guns. As of now anyone can carry a gun without any training, license, or anything but the money to buy one.
The Supreme Court also struck down California's ban on people under 21 buying semi automatic rifles.
Welcome to Ameirca, where guns have more rights than women.
posted by sotonohito at 8:31 AM on June 23, 2022 [6 favorites]
The Supreme Court also struck down California's ban on people under 21 buying semi automatic rifles.
Welcome to Ameirca, where guns have more rights than women.
posted by sotonohito at 8:31 AM on June 23, 2022 [6 favorites]
The Supreme Court just struck down laws requiring licenses to carry guns. As of now anyone can carry a gun without any training, license, or anything but the money to buy one.
I think it is clear that this is where we are headed (and this is already the case in about half of all US states), but this ruling doesn't go quite that far. From the NYTimes summary:
In an important concurring opinion, one that appeared to limit the sweep of the majority opinion, Justice Brett M. Kavanaugh, joined by Chief Justice John G. Roberts Jr., wrote that some licensing requirements remained presumptively constitutional. Among them, he wrote, were “fingerprinting, a background check, a mental health records check, and training in firearms handling and in laws regarding the use of force.”
posted by Dip Flash at 10:21 AM on June 23, 2022 [3 favorites]
I think it is clear that this is where we are headed (and this is already the case in about half of all US states), but this ruling doesn't go quite that far. From the NYTimes summary:
In an important concurring opinion, one that appeared to limit the sweep of the majority opinion, Justice Brett M. Kavanaugh, joined by Chief Justice John G. Roberts Jr., wrote that some licensing requirements remained presumptively constitutional. Among them, he wrote, were “fingerprinting, a background check, a mental health records check, and training in firearms handling and in laws regarding the use of force.”
posted by Dip Flash at 10:21 AM on June 23, 2022 [3 favorites]
Thanks Dip Flash. So it seems like they’re only eliminating “at the cop’s discretion” laws, which I don’t believe many states still have on the books. This explains the item I saw that the New York Legislature is planning to hold an emergency session - so they can create laws like the other states have which require uniform standards and don’t grant approval authority to police.
posted by corb at 11:40 AM on June 23, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by corb at 11:40 AM on June 23, 2022 [2 favorites]
So it seems like they’re only eliminating “at the cop’s discretion” laws
Let's not all calm down too fast. They eliminated the previous approach to determining whether a gun safety law is constitutional, took public safety out of the equation, and I think it's fair to say that the new regime is that all gun safety laws are presumptively unconstitutional and will be struck down unless they are demonstrated to be sufficiently historical. Trying to understand what that means is not recommended in light of the fact that the NY law they struck down is a century old and pretty much all of the weapons we currently refer to as guns did not exist in any more "historical" time periods, plus apparently some restrictions that did exist at earlier time periods may also not be constitutional, plus it's all transparent bullshit and I question whether any restriction apart from the barebones examples listed in the opinion will survive at all. Your blood pressure will not benefit from looking at the actual language of the Second Amendment, then looking at the First Amendment and contemplating that despite being on its face far more absolute and unequivocal, it is effectively toilet paper compared to a limited right to arm a state militia. I, for one, absolutely love being strangled by the dead hand of the founding fathers as the current Supreme Court erects a ceiling on our rights that is well below what real historians would agree existed at the time (ask your friendly local academic researcher whether abortion was legal a few hundred years ago and breathe deeply into a brown paper bag).
posted by prefpara at 1:37 AM on June 24, 2022 [6 favorites]
Let's not all calm down too fast. They eliminated the previous approach to determining whether a gun safety law is constitutional, took public safety out of the equation, and I think it's fair to say that the new regime is that all gun safety laws are presumptively unconstitutional and will be struck down unless they are demonstrated to be sufficiently historical. Trying to understand what that means is not recommended in light of the fact that the NY law they struck down is a century old and pretty much all of the weapons we currently refer to as guns did not exist in any more "historical" time periods, plus apparently some restrictions that did exist at earlier time periods may also not be constitutional, plus it's all transparent bullshit and I question whether any restriction apart from the barebones examples listed in the opinion will survive at all. Your blood pressure will not benefit from looking at the actual language of the Second Amendment, then looking at the First Amendment and contemplating that despite being on its face far more absolute and unequivocal, it is effectively toilet paper compared to a limited right to arm a state militia. I, for one, absolutely love being strangled by the dead hand of the founding fathers as the current Supreme Court erects a ceiling on our rights that is well below what real historians would agree existed at the time (ask your friendly local academic researcher whether abortion was legal a few hundred years ago and breathe deeply into a brown paper bag).
posted by prefpara at 1:37 AM on June 24, 2022 [6 favorites]
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posted by cooker girl at 2:41 PM on May 24, 2022 [38 favorites]