Censorship Resistant Money Everyone Can Use
June 13, 2022 12:05 PM Subscribe
With Celsius freezing withdrawals, and Binance suffering problems, Offline Cash has achieved peak crypto: Bitcoin that's easy to save, spend and hold in a self-sovereign way. [Via Web 3 is going just great, of course]
I am so confused by this, but I think it offers all of the currency stability of Bitcoin, combined with all of the negotiability and trust of third party checks, if those third party checks came with all sorts of limitations and per-note time limits...
posted by straw at 12:16 PM on June 13, 2022 [10 favorites]
posted by straw at 12:16 PM on June 13, 2022 [10 favorites]
Isn't this more like a fancy-looking check than cash? How much confidence do you have that the bitcoin account on the other side still exists and has the transferable amount? Or something terrible happened and they did a fork (well, again)? Or someone inside this organization figured out how to forge these notes?
posted by meowzilla at 12:21 PM on June 13, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by meowzilla at 12:21 PM on June 13, 2022 [8 favorites]
While economy is turbulent because of corrupt and lying politicians like one Vladimir somewhere, the idea of disconnecting supply of money from government could be a superb idea. As money is the measurement method of work and wealth, giving corrupt govenrments ability to strech the measurement unit as they will, will surely end in disaster.
It already did.
Several times.
---
Antti
posted by costello at 12:22 PM on June 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
It already did.
Several times.
---
Antti
posted by costello at 12:22 PM on June 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
In a sense, nothing legitimizes a currency like the ability to lose it to a good old-fashioned physical mugging.
posted by cortex at 12:22 PM on June 13, 2022 [34 favorites]
posted by cortex at 12:22 PM on June 13, 2022 [34 favorites]
According to that Casacius link from msbrauer, you could purchase "1000 BTC 1 troy ounce gold coin" which just about made me vapor lock trying to process their interpretation of how things have value
posted by AzraelBrown at 12:24 PM on June 13, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by AzraelBrown at 12:24 PM on June 13, 2022 [5 favorites]
oh cool even more money with white people on it
posted by tmt at 12:34 PM on June 13, 2022 [15 favorites]
posted by tmt at 12:34 PM on June 13, 2022 [15 favorites]
How much confidence do you have that the bitcoin account on the other side still exists and has the transferable amount?
I think the note has the public key accessible, so you can look up how much is in the wallet with an app.
The hard part is being sure that nobody else has the private key, which they've tried to do by hiding the private key inside the note, so you can't get to it without destroying the note. Mostly you have to trust that the company itself doesn't retain the private keys somehow.
I don't really understand their "multisig" scheme or how a key can expire, mind you.
posted by BungaDunga at 12:35 PM on June 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
I think the note has the public key accessible, so you can look up how much is in the wallet with an app.
The hard part is being sure that nobody else has the private key, which they've tried to do by hiding the private key inside the note, so you can't get to it without destroying the note. Mostly you have to trust that the company itself doesn't retain the private keys somehow.
I don't really understand their "multisig" scheme or how a key can expire, mind you.
posted by BungaDunga at 12:35 PM on June 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
Also you'll notice that the unit on their "cash" is a "millibit" or 0.001 btc. Today that's $23.25. At some point it was as high as $68. In that context, they're showing an almost $70 pizza there.
(Also look at the items shown in the third and fourth pictures - Game Boy Advance games, Tamagotchis, Magic: The Gathering cars. Big "rich nerd vibes".)
posted by meowzilla at 12:35 PM on June 13, 2022 [4 favorites]
(Also look at the items shown in the third and fourth pictures - Game Boy Advance games, Tamagotchis, Magic: The Gathering cars. Big "rich nerd vibes".)
posted by meowzilla at 12:35 PM on June 13, 2022 [4 favorites]
If you invest in a unregulated decentralized finance industry don't be surprised when there is nobody to help you get your money back.
posted by ShakeyJake at 12:55 PM on June 13, 2022 [14 favorites]
posted by ShakeyJake at 12:55 PM on June 13, 2022 [14 favorites]
I don't get this. Can someone break down how it gets used? I'm thinking - you get the cash and then . . . scan it? That verifies it's authenticity and puts it in your account?
So what happens on the expiry date? Whoever had it last keeps it like a game of hot potato?
Can you spent the bitcoin without the cash? Does that leave that 20 empty?
posted by Garm at 12:57 PM on June 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
So what happens on the expiry date? Whoever had it last keeps it like a game of hot potato?
Can you spent the bitcoin without the cash? Does that leave that 20 empty?
posted by Garm at 12:57 PM on June 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
I just want someone to hold me in a self-sovereign way.
posted by straight at 1:15 PM on June 13, 2022 [36 favorites]
posted by straight at 1:15 PM on June 13, 2022 [36 favorites]
And give me some censorship-resistant money. I'm so tired of my money getting censored.
posted by straight at 1:16 PM on June 13, 2022 [13 favorites]
posted by straight at 1:16 PM on June 13, 2022 [13 favorites]
Is this like that time an ATM in New Brunswick dispensed Canadian Tire money?
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 1:16 PM on June 13, 2022 [9 favorites]
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 1:16 PM on June 13, 2022 [9 favorites]
I've got all this cash that I want to keep in cold storage, but I can't re-key it from entropy I can generate myself.
posted by straight at 1:17 PM on June 13, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by straight at 1:17 PM on June 13, 2022 [3 favorites]
Fiat currency printed on natural paper is so easily ripped or torn. Won't someone print money on synthetic paper that's more durable?
posted by straight at 1:19 PM on June 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by straight at 1:19 PM on June 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
Not sure if joking, but several countries already do print on plastic paper. It's super-great.
posted by aramaic at 1:21 PM on June 13, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by aramaic at 1:21 PM on June 13, 2022 [5 favorites]
will be fun to scan the qr code on each bill one by one with a buggy app at the cash register, can't see any problems with that, enjoy paying capital gains taxes on your 5 millibitcoin latte
posted by dis_integration at 1:22 PM on June 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by dis_integration at 1:22 PM on June 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
They made the tokens fungible, Jerry!
posted by SansPoint at 1:24 PM on June 13, 2022 [26 favorites]
posted by SansPoint at 1:24 PM on June 13, 2022 [26 favorites]
They made the tokens fungible, Jerry!
"Jerry, it's not alie scam if you believe it."
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 1:27 PM on June 13, 2022 [8 favorites]
"Jerry, it's not a
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 1:27 PM on June 13, 2022 [8 favorites]
Not sure if joking, but several countries already do print on plastic paper. It's super-great.
I'm just laughing at the idea of "synthetic paper" as if there's any other kind.
posted by straight at 1:30 PM on June 13, 2022 [11 favorites]
I'm just laughing at the idea of "synthetic paper" as if there's any other kind.
posted by straight at 1:30 PM on June 13, 2022 [11 favorites]
Can someone break down how it gets used? I'm thinking - you get the cash and then . . . scan it? That verifies it's authenticity and puts it in your account?
So, you scan it and it tells you the public key of the "wallet" (the closest thing to an "account" as far as the blockchain is concerned) that the BTC is assigned to. Your phone looks up how much BTC is in that wallet. Handing the physical note doesn't move the money in or out of the wallet, but it gives the recipient the physical note. Inside the note is a chip that does know the public key, it just doesn't tell you until you cut the note in half. If you do that, it cuts a wire that tells the chip to tell you the private key, which gives you access to the wallet and can transfer the BTC out of it. This makes the note worthless (also you cut it in half, so).
In theory you shouldn't need to scan each individual note when someone hands you one, if you trust it to be tamper-evident. And if you don't trust it to be tamper-evident, scanning a note doesn't help: someone might extract the private key, hand you the note, and then as soon as you verify the amount in the wallet, initiate the transfer back to themselves.
I'm not sure what's up with the expiry mechanism though.
posted by BungaDunga at 1:33 PM on June 13, 2022 [4 favorites]
So, you scan it and it tells you the public key of the "wallet" (the closest thing to an "account" as far as the blockchain is concerned) that the BTC is assigned to. Your phone looks up how much BTC is in that wallet. Handing the physical note doesn't move the money in or out of the wallet, but it gives the recipient the physical note. Inside the note is a chip that does know the public key, it just doesn't tell you until you cut the note in half. If you do that, it cuts a wire that tells the chip to tell you the private key, which gives you access to the wallet and can transfer the BTC out of it. This makes the note worthless (also you cut it in half, so).
In theory you shouldn't need to scan each individual note when someone hands you one, if you trust it to be tamper-evident. And if you don't trust it to be tamper-evident, scanning a note doesn't help: someone might extract the private key, hand you the note, and then as soon as you verify the amount in the wallet, initiate the transfer back to themselves.
I'm not sure what's up with the expiry mechanism though.
posted by BungaDunga at 1:33 PM on June 13, 2022 [4 favorites]
And give me some censorship-resistant money. I'm so tired of my money getting censored.
If the image on the face of the bill isn't ol' George with his dong out, I'm not interested.
posted by Kadin2048 at 1:34 PM on June 13, 2022 [3 favorites]
If the image on the face of the bill isn't ol' George with his dong out, I'm not interested.
posted by Kadin2048 at 1:34 PM on June 13, 2022 [3 favorites]
It's like a hypothetical physical bearer bond that grants you a claim on gold bullion stored in a Swiss bank. If you destroy the bond you can get access to the actual gold, but you can also just use the bond itself as payment for stuff.
I'm not saying any of this is a good idea, but it does seem like it could, in a narrow sense, work.
posted by BungaDunga at 1:39 PM on June 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
I'm not saying any of this is a good idea, but it does seem like it could, in a narrow sense, work.
posted by BungaDunga at 1:39 PM on June 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
Hmm. Print a bunch of identical notes that likewise point to a wallet somewhere with a balance, but don’t bother with the chip. By the time they cut the thing in half, it’s already too late for the sucker who took the note.
posted by notoriety public at 1:42 PM on June 13, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by notoriety public at 1:42 PM on June 13, 2022 [7 favorites]
Quebec's pension plan, the Caisse de dépôt et placement du Québec, is one of the financial backers of Celsius, having participated in a $400 million investment into the platform last November.
"Blockchain technology has the potential to disrupt several sectors of the traditional economy," the Caisse said at the time. "As digital assets grow in adoption, we intend to capture the right opportunities, while working with our partners toward a regulated industry."
The Caisse did not immediately reply to a request for comment by CBC News on Monday.
Damn. What a bunch of incompetent assholes.
It's one thing when individuals or private equity funds decide to throw money at this shit, it's quite another when people with the responsibility for managing pensions do it.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 1:45 PM on June 13, 2022 [24 favorites]
"Blockchain technology has the potential to disrupt several sectors of the traditional economy," the Caisse said at the time. "As digital assets grow in adoption, we intend to capture the right opportunities, while working with our partners toward a regulated industry."
The Caisse did not immediately reply to a request for comment by CBC News on Monday.
Damn. What a bunch of incompetent assholes.
It's one thing when individuals or private equity funds decide to throw money at this shit, it's quite another when people with the responsibility for managing pensions do it.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 1:45 PM on June 13, 2022 [24 favorites]
people with the responsibility for managing pensions
I've always sort of felt that it's a moral hazard to have anyone actually manage a pension -- that they should just be piled into an assortment of indices and the like, and left on autopilot. Otherwise you're just gonna attract trader bros, and they're gonna try to bro-down with your retirement.
posted by aramaic at 1:54 PM on June 13, 2022 [13 favorites]
I've always sort of felt that it's a moral hazard to have anyone actually manage a pension -- that they should just be piled into an assortment of indices and the like, and left on autopilot. Otherwise you're just gonna attract trader bros, and they're gonna try to bro-down with your retirement.
posted by aramaic at 1:54 PM on June 13, 2022 [13 favorites]
My favorite part of this is the "security features" that in no way guarantee that a note contains any bitcoin. "This includes detailed microtext, gold foil and raised intaglio print that you can feel."
posted by joeyh at 2:02 PM on June 13, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by joeyh at 2:02 PM on June 13, 2022 [7 favorites]
They're not the only ones. Announced just last week, Cryptonote. Differences are: it uses a QR code instead of NFC, and the private key is revealed by peeling off a sticker (I think I have that right). Oh and apparently only comes in 1 bitcoin denomination, but hey, that's becoming more affordable daily.
posted by moonmoth at 2:10 PM on June 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by moonmoth at 2:10 PM on June 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
I'm just laughing at the idea of "synthetic paper" as if there's any other kind.
Ok, wait. Hear me out on this. What if we made leaves from trees as our currency?
We'd all be instantly rich. Billionaires.
Especially after we burned down all of the forests to fight inflation.
posted by loquacious at 2:15 PM on June 13, 2022 [19 favorites]
Ok, wait. Hear me out on this. What if we made leaves from trees as our currency?
We'd all be instantly rich. Billionaires.
Especially after we burned down all of the forests to fight inflation.
posted by loquacious at 2:15 PM on June 13, 2022 [19 favorites]
I've always sort of felt that it's a moral hazard to have anyone actually manage a pension -- that they should just be piled into an assortment of indices and the like, and left on autopilot.
Calpers, the largest US pension fund, is moving in that direction.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 2:16 PM on June 13, 2022 [8 favorites]
Calpers, the largest US pension fund, is moving in that direction.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 2:16 PM on June 13, 2022 [8 favorites]
Ok, wait. Hear me out on this. What if we made leaves from trees as our currency?
Hey, friend. We're gonna be setting up some colonization ships to Mars and I think you would be a perfect candidate for Ark Fleet Ship B.
posted by straight at 2:23 PM on June 13, 2022 [21 favorites]
Hey, friend. We're gonna be setting up some colonization ships to Mars and I think you would be a perfect candidate for Ark Fleet Ship B.
posted by straight at 2:23 PM on June 13, 2022 [21 favorites]
I'm so tired of my money getting censored.
And canceled checks! It's the worst.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 2:30 PM on June 13, 2022 [16 favorites]
And canceled checks! It's the worst.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 2:30 PM on June 13, 2022 [16 favorites]
Hey, friend. We're gonna be setting up some colonization ships to Mars and I think you would be a perfect candidate for Ark Fleet Ship B.
Hey, great, I totally want to hang out with Elon Musk in an enclosed space that I can't leave or escape without a pressure suit for the rest of my life.
posted by loquacious at 2:51 PM on June 13, 2022 [13 favorites]
Hey, great, I totally want to hang out with Elon Musk in an enclosed space that I can't leave or escape without a pressure suit for the rest of my life.
posted by loquacious at 2:51 PM on June 13, 2022 [13 favorites]
Looks like real wildcat money now.
Crypto is basically speed running human innovations in currency starting from Rai stones and by my reckoning we're at about 1905.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 3:02 PM on June 13, 2022 [14 favorites]
Crypto is basically speed running human innovations in currency starting from Rai stones and by my reckoning we're at about 1905.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 3:02 PM on June 13, 2022 [14 favorites]
On March 26, 1835, the Territory of Michigan authorized the Erie and Kalamazoo Railroad Company to establish a bank at the village of Adrian. The bank failed around 1841, reopened in 1853 then failed again in 1854.
Cryptobros: "Those are rookie numbers. You need to bump those up."
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 3:05 PM on June 13, 2022 [11 favorites]
Cryptobros: "Those are rookie numbers. You need to bump those up."
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 3:05 PM on June 13, 2022 [11 favorites]
This only makes sense to me if you think of it as a fancy paper wallet. Which would make sense in a way for those who want to store their coins offline and want an elaborate piece of paper for doing so.
Hah, stop that!
I guess it would also almost make sense as a debit card which could be used for spending and deposits. Assuming you could find any vendor in the real world willing to accept BTC.
Well there are or were ways to use debit cards tied directly to crypto holdings, but that is still just dirty fiat with lots of extra steps and volatility. I think they used to be more popular and useful before exchanges had to comply with KYC and other banking regulations and fees in general were much lower.
That and there were more people willing to try accepting BTC/BCH or other crypto at a loss as it's own kind of speculation, kind of like letting customers trade weird derivatives, commodities, a piece of art or almost anything for a cup of coffee or whatever because it might possibly be worth more than that cup of coffee or other goods and services in the future.
This all brings to mind one of the more infuriating things I've seen ever come out of the cryptosphere in recent history:
It happened in the first week of Russia's invasion of Ukraine and someone from Ukraine posted a question about how to flee and obtain funds. As I recall they wanted to liquidate their crypto holdings into something more portable and useful.
The crypto-enthusiasts were chiming in with the general sentiment of "Convert it to fiat? You're mad! You have the most spendable currency on the planet! Just spend it!" and totally failing to recognize that it's kind of difficult to do that if the vendor or concern you need to spend with at has no idea what it is - or even worse they know what it is and they don't want anything to do with it.
Or even the general concept that if they could "just spend it" it's really difficult to do so if your telecommunications and power grid is being blown to smithereens and isn't stable.
Somehow there is this total disconnect that being in the middle of a modern, active, asymmetrical war zone and fleeing as a refugee isn't exactly an ideal place to onboard the local grocer, taxi driver or transportation office or that you could just easily spend funny Sudoku puzzle bucks somewhere useful like bottlecaps in Fallout.
The super silly and ironic part is how the pervasive crypto mantra of "trustless" currency or banking is - while in the end even with crypto the only real currency is trust, even the rudimentary fundamental trust that any of these crypto/blockchain currency systems aren't compromised or they have any intrinsic value whatsoever.
Much less the totally delusional amounts of trust it takes to think about crypto in speculative terms that they are a sound investment that will return a reward.
posted by loquacious at 4:08 PM on June 13, 2022 [9 favorites]
Hah, stop that!
I guess it would also almost make sense as a debit card which could be used for spending and deposits. Assuming you could find any vendor in the real world willing to accept BTC.
Well there are or were ways to use debit cards tied directly to crypto holdings, but that is still just dirty fiat with lots of extra steps and volatility. I think they used to be more popular and useful before exchanges had to comply with KYC and other banking regulations and fees in general were much lower.
That and there were more people willing to try accepting BTC/BCH or other crypto at a loss as it's own kind of speculation, kind of like letting customers trade weird derivatives, commodities, a piece of art or almost anything for a cup of coffee or whatever because it might possibly be worth more than that cup of coffee or other goods and services in the future.
This all brings to mind one of the more infuriating things I've seen ever come out of the cryptosphere in recent history:
It happened in the first week of Russia's invasion of Ukraine and someone from Ukraine posted a question about how to flee and obtain funds. As I recall they wanted to liquidate their crypto holdings into something more portable and useful.
The crypto-enthusiasts were chiming in with the general sentiment of "Convert it to fiat? You're mad! You have the most spendable currency on the planet! Just spend it!" and totally failing to recognize that it's kind of difficult to do that if the vendor or concern you need to spend with at has no idea what it is - or even worse they know what it is and they don't want anything to do with it.
Or even the general concept that if they could "just spend it" it's really difficult to do so if your telecommunications and power grid is being blown to smithereens and isn't stable.
Somehow there is this total disconnect that being in the middle of a modern, active, asymmetrical war zone and fleeing as a refugee isn't exactly an ideal place to onboard the local grocer, taxi driver or transportation office or that you could just easily spend funny Sudoku puzzle bucks somewhere useful like bottlecaps in Fallout.
The super silly and ironic part is how the pervasive crypto mantra of "trustless" currency or banking is - while in the end even with crypto the only real currency is trust, even the rudimentary fundamental trust that any of these crypto/blockchain currency systems aren't compromised or they have any intrinsic value whatsoever.
Much less the totally delusional amounts of trust it takes to think about crypto in speculative terms that they are a sound investment that will return a reward.
posted by loquacious at 4:08 PM on June 13, 2022 [9 favorites]
Maybe it would also work as currency. Something that only represents coinage, but doesn't contain any keys of its own. As in: I've got a note for 1 BTC. I can give it to someone for a pizza or Tesla or whatever. And then they can turn it in to the issuing company in exchange for an actual blockchain bitcoin. But I guess that would be impossible due to laws against private currency.
That, and the fact that the "actual" blockchain bitcoin has to come from someone's account, right? So there would have to be a way of indicating on the paper whose account it can be drawn from, and then someway of dealing with what happens if said account doesn't have enough bitcoins left in it when the pieces of paper come in...kind of like a checking account, come to think of it, except with crypto instead of money, so therefore its cooler.
posted by nubs at 4:10 PM on June 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
That, and the fact that the "actual" blockchain bitcoin has to come from someone's account, right? So there would have to be a way of indicating on the paper whose account it can be drawn from, and then someway of dealing with what happens if said account doesn't have enough bitcoins left in it when the pieces of paper come in...kind of like a checking account, come to think of it, except with crypto instead of money, so therefore its cooler.
posted by nubs at 4:10 PM on June 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
Web 3 is going just great
Honestly I hope Molly White can keep her sanity during the coming weeks as this all goes down. She does an amazing job and is a highlight of my Twitter feed. I tried to send her a few dollars to contribute to her reporting, but she is redirecting people to other worthwhile projects supporting economically / structurally disadvantaged folks in IT, having covered her immediate costs for web3isgoinggreat.com already.
posted by inflatablekiwi at 4:33 PM on June 13, 2022 [23 favorites]
Honestly I hope Molly White can keep her sanity during the coming weeks as this all goes down. She does an amazing job and is a highlight of my Twitter feed. I tried to send her a few dollars to contribute to her reporting, but she is redirecting people to other worthwhile projects supporting economically / structurally disadvantaged folks in IT, having covered her immediate costs for web3isgoinggreat.com already.
posted by inflatablekiwi at 4:33 PM on June 13, 2022 [23 favorites]
When do we get to blockchain backed wheels and fire? When will they disrupt the box-top for prizes market? When will use of cryptocoins finally be a symptom in the DSM? How much more has to happen before these folk recognize that the bet has been lost and this is never going to happen as a force for good or even pernicious parasitic utility?
posted by Ignorantsavage at 4:35 PM on June 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by Ignorantsavage at 4:35 PM on June 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
Also you'll notice that the unit on their "cash" is a "millibit" or 0.001 btc.
Wondering if this goes live when we'll hear that someone passed off a 2 millibit note as 2 million bitcoin and made out like a bandit by buying a house or a sports car or whatever with it. Even though having 2 million BTC wouldn't make sense.
(also could they have made the images on the sample notes any more white European centric.....and I notice the app mock up image has a "claim before" date on it.....so these notes presumably expire...which is a hell of a feature.)
posted by inflatablekiwi at 4:49 PM on June 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
Wondering if this goes live when we'll hear that someone passed off a 2 millibit note as 2 million bitcoin and made out like a bandit by buying a house or a sports car or whatever with it. Even though having 2 million BTC wouldn't make sense.
(also could they have made the images on the sample notes any more white European centric.....and I notice the app mock up image has a "claim before" date on it.....so these notes presumably expire...which is a hell of a feature.)
posted by inflatablekiwi at 4:49 PM on June 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
Hey, great, I totally want to hang out with Elon Musk in an enclosed space that I can't leave or escape without a pressure suit for the rest of my life.
That's how it is now.
posted by NoThisIsPatrick at 5:30 PM on June 13, 2022 [27 favorites]
That's how it is now.
posted by NoThisIsPatrick at 5:30 PM on June 13, 2022 [27 favorites]
Is this like that time an ATM in New Brunswick dispensed Canadian Tire money?
At least Canadian tire money is backed by an actual business with physical locations you can just walk into and spend the money (including gas, water and beaver wax). It is uncommon but not unheard of for tiny businesses to take CT money at face value or private debts to be settled in whole or in part with CT money. It is also no foolin' pegged 1:1 to the Canadian dollar.
This is all going away though as Canadian Tire isn't issuing physical notes anymore (it lives on in debit card form) but the system is way more ground in reality than any crypto currency.
posted by Mitheral at 5:30 PM on June 13, 2022 [10 favorites]
At least Canadian tire money is backed by an actual business with physical locations you can just walk into and spend the money (including gas, water and beaver wax). It is uncommon but not unheard of for tiny businesses to take CT money at face value or private debts to be settled in whole or in part with CT money. It is also no foolin' pegged 1:1 to the Canadian dollar.
This is all going away though as Canadian Tire isn't issuing physical notes anymore (it lives on in debit card form) but the system is way more ground in reality than any crypto currency.
posted by Mitheral at 5:30 PM on June 13, 2022 [10 favorites]
It is uncommon but not unheard of for tiny businesses to take CT money
I used to frequent a bar that took it at par!
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 5:35 PM on June 13, 2022 [4 favorites]
I used to frequent a bar that took it at par!
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 5:35 PM on June 13, 2022 [4 favorites]
Uber but for bearer bonds
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:37 PM on June 13, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:37 PM on June 13, 2022 [4 favorites]
I can give it to someone for a pizza or Tesla or whatever.
It's worth pointing out that every year, crypto bros celebrate "bitcoin pizza day" on May 22, to commemorate the first known time when someone bought pizza with bitcoin. However, they do not celebrate it because it's proof that bitcoin works as a currency; they celebrate it because it's so funny that the guy was so dumb. Literally, the whole thing is people being like, "omg this guy spent [some giant number of millions of dollars, if he'd just HODL'd for 10+ more years] on 2 pizzas!".
Because everyone knows that the way currency is supposed to work is, you buy it and then hold it forever and it appreciates infinitely.
This is the true face of the crypto bro community: people who literally made a holiday to mock the one time someone actually took seriously their claims that it isn't just a greater fool scam.
posted by a faithful sock at 7:12 PM on June 13, 2022 [52 favorites]
It's worth pointing out that every year, crypto bros celebrate "bitcoin pizza day" on May 22, to commemorate the first known time when someone bought pizza with bitcoin. However, they do not celebrate it because it's proof that bitcoin works as a currency; they celebrate it because it's so funny that the guy was so dumb. Literally, the whole thing is people being like, "omg this guy spent [some giant number of millions of dollars, if he'd just HODL'd for 10+ more years] on 2 pizzas!".
Because everyone knows that the way currency is supposed to work is, you buy it and then hold it forever and it appreciates infinitely.
This is the true face of the crypto bro community: people who literally made a holiday to mock the one time someone actually took seriously their claims that it isn't just a greater fool scam.
posted by a faithful sock at 7:12 PM on June 13, 2022 [52 favorites]
Hey, great, I totally want to hang out with Elon Musk in an enclosed space that I can't leave or escape without a pressure suit for the rest of my life.
One of the great things about Ark Fleet Ship B is that you don't have to!
posted by mbo at 10:46 PM on June 13, 2022 [6 favorites]
One of the great things about Ark Fleet Ship B is that you don't have to!
posted by mbo at 10:46 PM on June 13, 2022 [6 favorites]
Maybe it would also work as currency. Something that only represents coinage, but doesn't contain any keys of its own. As in: I've got a note for 1 BTC. I can give it to someone for a pizza or Tesla or whatever. And then they can turn it in to the issuing company in exchange for an actual blockchain bitcoin. But I guess that would be impossible due to laws against private currency. And also impossible because very few would have even the slightest trust in centralized coin repositories these days.
You've reinvented cash! Or specifically, paper money. But so much better than that fiat paper stuff, because instead of being backed by a bank, regulated by a government so that they can only issue so much cash, it's backed by a coin repository which is just like a bank, only without any meaningful regulation at all and with no guarantee that they don't issue more paper currency than they have underlying bitcoin (which is itself not backed by anything anyway) so yeah. Just like paper money, only built on sand. With no foundations. And it's quicksand.
posted by Dysk at 1:03 AM on June 14, 2022 [6 favorites]
You've reinvented cash! Or specifically, paper money. But so much better than that fiat paper stuff, because instead of being backed by a bank, regulated by a government so that they can only issue so much cash, it's backed by a coin repository which is just like a bank, only without any meaningful regulation at all and with no guarantee that they don't issue more paper currency than they have underlying bitcoin (which is itself not backed by anything anyway) so yeah. Just like paper money, only built on sand. With no foundations. And it's quicksand.
posted by Dysk at 1:03 AM on June 14, 2022 [6 favorites]
Maybe it would also work as currency. Something that only represents coinage, but doesn't contain any keys of its own. As in: I've got a note for 1 BTC. I can give it to someone for a pizza or Tesla or whatever. And then they can turn it in to the issuing company in exchange for an actual blockchain bitcoin. But I guess that would be impossible due to laws against private currency. And also impossible because very few would have even the slightest trust in centralized coin repositories these days.
You've reinvented cash! Or specifically, paper money. But so much better than that fiat paper stuff, because instead of being backed by a bank, regulated by a government so that they can only issue so much cash, it's backed by a coin repository which is just like a bank, only without any meaningful regulation at all and with no guarantee that they don't issue more paper currency than they have underlying bitcoin (which is itself not backed by anything anyway) so yeah. Just like paper money, only built on sand. With no foundations. And it's quicksand.
posted by Dysk at 3:03 AM on June 14
[1 favorite +] [!]
Isn't this also what a stable coin is, basically? Up to and including not actually having enough 'gold' to back the 'fiat'
posted by TheProfessor at 5:38 AM on June 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
You've reinvented cash! Or specifically, paper money. But so much better than that fiat paper stuff, because instead of being backed by a bank, regulated by a government so that they can only issue so much cash, it's backed by a coin repository which is just like a bank, only without any meaningful regulation at all and with no guarantee that they don't issue more paper currency than they have underlying bitcoin (which is itself not backed by anything anyway) so yeah. Just like paper money, only built on sand. With no foundations. And it's quicksand.
posted by Dysk at 3:03 AM on June 14
[1 favorite +] [!]
Isn't this also what a stable coin is, basically? Up to and including not actually having enough 'gold' to back the 'fiat'
posted by TheProfessor at 5:38 AM on June 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
Indeed, which is why all this stuff is digital specie and we're experiencing wildcat banking just without the paper.
Or any physical locus to riot at when your apes are gone.
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:39 AM on June 14, 2022 [4 favorites]
Or any physical locus to riot at when your apes are gone.
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:39 AM on June 14, 2022 [4 favorites]
Wouldn't using scratchy lottery tickets be easier, more secure, and have wider adoption? You treat a ticket like a $100 bill, but then when you want to verify that it's worth $100, you scratch it.
Most of the time, it'll end up being worthless. But that's way better than these coins, which will definitely always be revealed to be worthless when you break the seal for the private key. And sometimes, the scratchy ticket will be worth MORE than the face value!
Congratulations. You've added a trust requirement to a trustless system.
posted by AlSweigart at 8:05 AM on June 14, 2022 [7 favorites]
Most of the time, it'll end up being worthless. But that's way better than these coins, which will definitely always be revealed to be worthless when you break the seal for the private key. And sometimes, the scratchy ticket will be worth MORE than the face value!
Congratulations. You've added a trust requirement to a trustless system.
posted by AlSweigart at 8:05 AM on June 14, 2022 [7 favorites]
Anybody else up for a Pratchett Making Money reread?
posted by humbug at 8:06 AM on June 14, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by humbug at 8:06 AM on June 14, 2022 [7 favorites]
Also look at the items shown in the third and fourth pictures - Game Boy Advance games, Tamagotchis, Magic: The Gathering cars. Big "rich nerd vibes".)
What else can I say other than that they know their target market.
posted by jmauro at 8:32 AM on June 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
What else can I say other than that they know their target market.
posted by jmauro at 8:32 AM on June 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
The one good thing about these notes, compared to a wildcat bank, is that it's pretty hard for them to issue a note without actually putting the relevant bitcoin into a segregated account that they don't have unilateral access to.
So it's not like they can issue unbacked or fractionally-backed notes. They're all 100% backed, and since they're denominated in bitcoin they'll always keep their face value, even if Bitcoin itself crashes. Like, I think this is a silly idea, since it's got all the annoyances of physical cash plus the volatility of bitcoin, but I can sort of see the appeal if you take as axiomatic that it makes sense to try to pay for things in BTC (which no, it doesn't).
(as noted upthread the Evil version of this is that they issue "counterfeit" notes that all grant access to the same wallet, but there's no reason to think that won't be noticed fairly quickly if it's done at any scale)
posted by BungaDunga at 8:34 AM on June 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
So it's not like they can issue unbacked or fractionally-backed notes. They're all 100% backed, and since they're denominated in bitcoin they'll always keep their face value, even if Bitcoin itself crashes. Like, I think this is a silly idea, since it's got all the annoyances of physical cash plus the volatility of bitcoin, but I can sort of see the appeal if you take as axiomatic that it makes sense to try to pay for things in BTC (which no, it doesn't).
(as noted upthread the Evil version of this is that they issue "counterfeit" notes that all grant access to the same wallet, but there's no reason to think that won't be noticed fairly quickly if it's done at any scale)
posted by BungaDunga at 8:34 AM on June 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
I should say, the scam version of this is just that they keep all the private keys somewhere and rugpull after selling a bunch of these notes. They could totally do that. But... there are easier and safer ways to rugpull a couple million dollars, people are constantly doing small-time fake coin rugpulls and melting into the ether and never facing consequences. This whole thing seems really high-effort for a scam, given that low-effort scams seem to be pretty effective.
That's not to say I'd trust them with any actual money, but still.
posted by BungaDunga at 8:44 AM on June 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
That's not to say I'd trust them with any actual money, but still.
posted by BungaDunga at 8:44 AM on June 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
When this showed up on Hacker News the other week my immediate question was how much do they want for these above and beyond the price of the bitcoin it represents, this is some fancy printing and I presume they want to, like, make money selling these things. The smallest denomination is well below "if you have to ask, you can't afford it" territory.
The people who made this thing were in the comments there but never replied to my question.
posted by egypturnash at 8:56 AM on June 14, 2022 [3 favorites]
The people who made this thing were in the comments there but never replied to my question.
posted by egypturnash at 8:56 AM on June 14, 2022 [3 favorites]
Wouldn't using scratchy lottery tickets be easier, more secure, and have wider adoption?
I thought this already was gambling?
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 9:18 AM on June 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
I thought this already was gambling?
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 9:18 AM on June 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
From the general trend, I wonder how much traditional entities speculating in Crypto gave these companies a false sense of security and prosperity which, as the market started it’s major downturn 6 months ago, was rapidly eroded after they over extended themselves.
I’m sure someone will get a postmortem on the last year in Crypto out if they haven’t already.
posted by Slackermagee at 9:31 AM on June 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
I’m sure someone will get a postmortem on the last year in Crypto out if they haven’t already.
posted by Slackermagee at 9:31 AM on June 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
This whole thing seems really high-effort for a scam, given that low-effort scams seem to be pretty effective.
They are getting down to the dregs of the people they can convince to invest in the ponzi scheme. Expect to see ever more goofy scams as people thrash around trying to cash out.
posted by Mitheral at 10:07 AM on June 14, 2022 [4 favorites]
They are getting down to the dregs of the people they can convince to invest in the ponzi scheme. Expect to see ever more goofy scams as people thrash around trying to cash out.
posted by Mitheral at 10:07 AM on June 14, 2022 [4 favorites]
Has there been a tontine DeFi scam yet? Ideally ripping off the Deadpool franchise IP. Perfect because no withdrawals before the rug pull.
posted by snuffleupagus at 10:13 AM on June 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by snuffleupagus at 10:13 AM on June 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
The problem is that you never know when you're early or late to a fad. After everything has already happened we have the benefit of 20-20 hindsight. You might have come in too late and lost everything if the bubble blew up early.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 10:49 AM on June 14, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 10:49 AM on June 14, 2022 [6 favorites]
Does Canadian tire money come with an expiration date? Because these notes do.
posted by subdee at 10:51 AM on June 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by subdee at 10:51 AM on June 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
From the general trend, I wonder how much traditional entities speculating in Crypto gave these companies a false sense of security and prosperity which, as the market started it’s major downturn 6 months ago, was rapidly eroded after they over extended themselves.
That, SEC regulation (e.g. of Tether) and bans by the Chinese govt etc shaking confidence, and on the retail side, the spike last year was a lot driven by people investing their COVID relief checks.
posted by subdee at 10:54 AM on June 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
This is how I see cryptocurrencies:
I have a penny in my hand. I am calling it pennycoin. It is worth 1.8 trillion dollars. It is worth that much because I say so. It is backed by 1.8 trillion dollars in the bank because I say so.
I have added a second pennycoin, also worth 1.8 trillion dollars. It is backed 100% by my other pennycoin.
You can buy a one millionth share for 1.6 million dollars. Think of the savings. Transaction fees apply.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 11:10 AM on June 14, 2022 [4 favorites]
I have a penny in my hand. I am calling it pennycoin. It is worth 1.8 trillion dollars. It is worth that much because I say so. It is backed by 1.8 trillion dollars in the bank because I say so.
I have added a second pennycoin, also worth 1.8 trillion dollars. It is backed 100% by my other pennycoin.
You can buy a one millionth share for 1.6 million dollars. Think of the savings. Transaction fees apply.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 11:10 AM on June 14, 2022 [4 favorites]
Besides SEC regulations and the Chinese govt banning crypto mining and cryptocurrencies in general, there are possible US regulations on the way BTW - Biden administration announced they are working in an official us govt digital currency, which would make a lot of crypto obsolete since it is de facto centralized on the exchanges anyway (and also non technical people don't care about decentralization to begin with).
Also, Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies are under heavy scrutiny atm bc the US govt has identified that it is how the IRA and north Korean govt etc pays hackers.
On top of people generally having less discretionary money to gamble with and the recent bad press, possibly the bigger players are getting out bc they can see the (future) writing on the wall.
posted by subdee at 11:11 AM on June 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
Also, Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies are under heavy scrutiny atm bc the US govt has identified that it is how the IRA and north Korean govt etc pays hackers.
On top of people generally having less discretionary money to gamble with and the recent bad press, possibly the bigger players are getting out bc they can see the (future) writing on the wall.
posted by subdee at 11:11 AM on June 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
Didn’t we perfect money with Flooz?
posted by Don.Kinsayder at 12:12 PM on June 14, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by Don.Kinsayder at 12:12 PM on June 14, 2022 [4 favorites]
Didn’t we perfect money with Flooz?
Here on MF we prefered Beanz.
posted by maxwelton at 12:28 PM on June 14, 2022 [4 favorites]
Here on MF we prefered Beanz.
posted by maxwelton at 12:28 PM on June 14, 2022 [4 favorites]
it was obvious at the time what it was
sad noises (previously)
posted by snuffleupagus at 12:49 PM on June 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
sad noises (previously)
posted by snuffleupagus at 12:49 PM on June 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
> The problem is that you never know when you're early or late to a fad. After everything has already happened we have the benefit of 20-20 hindsight. You might have come in too late and lost everything if the bubble blew up early.
No kidding! It was obvious to me in 2009 when I first played with bitcoin mining (back then i don't remember exactly how long it took to mine a single coin but i think it took me less than a few days) that it was stupid. None of it made any sense, the economics of it seemed stupid, the hashcash technique seemed wasteful, the barrier to entry seemed way too high for it to ever be a "currency", it seemed clear the gov't would intervene if it ever did, in short i didn't believe it would ever be worth *anything*, so when I upgraded my laptop I just deleted my "wallet" and the rest of the bitcoin stuff, and forgot about it. Gave my CPU cycles back to seti@home, which seemed like at the very least it was trying to do something interesting. Insane! I had at least 4 or 5 bitcoin in there.
Of course, I probably would have sold them way before the $69,000 peak. I like to think I would have waited for at least $10k per coin, but probably i would have cashed in when it was all worth $100 and felt just as dumb as I do now.
posted by dis_integration at 1:07 PM on June 14, 2022 [4 favorites]
No kidding! It was obvious to me in 2009 when I first played with bitcoin mining (back then i don't remember exactly how long it took to mine a single coin but i think it took me less than a few days) that it was stupid. None of it made any sense, the economics of it seemed stupid, the hashcash technique seemed wasteful, the barrier to entry seemed way too high for it to ever be a "currency", it seemed clear the gov't would intervene if it ever did, in short i didn't believe it would ever be worth *anything*, so when I upgraded my laptop I just deleted my "wallet" and the rest of the bitcoin stuff, and forgot about it. Gave my CPU cycles back to seti@home, which seemed like at the very least it was trying to do something interesting. Insane! I had at least 4 or 5 bitcoin in there.
Of course, I probably would have sold them way before the $69,000 peak. I like to think I would have waited for at least $10k per coin, but probably i would have cashed in when it was all worth $100 and felt just as dumb as I do now.
posted by dis_integration at 1:07 PM on June 14, 2022 [4 favorites]
Does Canadian tire money come with an expiration date? Because these notes do.
No. Also they aren't printed on a cheap paper; they feel somewhat like money. Or rather what money use to feel like before Canada started using polymer bills.
posted by Mitheral at 2:11 PM on June 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
No. Also they aren't printed on a cheap paper; they feel somewhat like money. Or rather what money use to feel like before Canada started using polymer bills.
posted by Mitheral at 2:11 PM on June 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
I should say, the scam version of this is just that they keep all the private keys somewhere and rugpull after selling a bunch of these notes
(I actually looked into it more and apparently these notes have two keys, one of them is controlled by someone who holds the note, and this two-key arrangement is going to be enforced on the blockchain(tm) so I don't think this sort of straightforward "take all the money" scheme would actually work)
posted by BungaDunga at 2:36 PM on June 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
(I actually looked into it more and apparently these notes have two keys, one of them is controlled by someone who holds the note, and this two-key arrangement is going to be enforced on the blockchain(tm) so I don't think this sort of straightforward "take all the money" scheme would actually work)
posted by BungaDunga at 2:36 PM on June 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
that is, you need both keys to take the money out, not just one, so even if they secretly know one of the keys, they definitely don't know the other one, so they can't just run off with the money
posted by BungaDunga at 2:37 PM on June 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by BungaDunga at 2:37 PM on June 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
No. Also they aren't printed on a cheap paper; they feel somewhat like money. Or rather what money use to feel like before Canada started using polymer bills
They should! They are printed by the Canadian Banknote Company, who also make Canadian bills.
posted by fimbulvetr at 3:49 PM on June 14, 2022 [4 favorites]
They should! They are printed by the Canadian Banknote Company, who also make Canadian bills.
posted by fimbulvetr at 3:49 PM on June 14, 2022 [4 favorites]
Bill Gates says crypto and NFTs are a sham; cites "greater fool" theory.
posted by Brian B. at 10:05 AM on June 15, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by Brian B. at 10:05 AM on June 15, 2022 [5 favorites]
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posted by msbrauer at 12:15 PM on June 13, 2022 [5 favorites]