"I never want to promote derogatory language."
June 14, 2022 10:21 AM Subscribe
Historically, it's been one of those "US vs. UK" divergences that's caught up Weird Al, Nintendo, Tiger Woods, etc. (not to say that it's alright, just "that's how low it used to fly under the radar")
Awareness seems to be growing & the level settling around "nope, not ok", so hopefully with time this'll be less common of an issue.
posted by CrystalDave at 10:43 AM on June 14, 2022 [11 favorites]
Awareness seems to be growing & the level settling around "nope, not ok", so hopefully with time this'll be less common of an issue.
posted by CrystalDave at 10:43 AM on June 14, 2022 [11 favorites]
God love Lizzo. What a stellar human being.
posted by Kitteh at 10:58 AM on June 14, 2022 [13 favorites]
posted by Kitteh at 10:58 AM on June 14, 2022 [13 favorites]
Love this! That's how it's supposed to be - learned something new, now I fixed it. DONE! Go Lizzo!
posted by tinydancer at 11:06 AM on June 14, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by tinydancer at 11:06 AM on June 14, 2022 [8 favorites]
Lizzo is the best on so many levels. I highly recommend 'Watch Out For The Big Grrls' as an example of a reality competition show that feels genuinely affirmative and tries to build women up rather than push them down.
Glad to see people catching up with the fact that this sort of language isn't really acceptable.
posted by fight or flight at 11:09 AM on June 14, 2022 [8 favorites]
Glad to see people catching up with the fact that this sort of language isn't really acceptable.
posted by fight or flight at 11:09 AM on June 14, 2022 [8 favorites]
This is absolutely how it's done. Good for her.
posted by gauche at 11:19 AM on June 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by gauche at 11:19 AM on June 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
I'm very impressed by how quickly she responded and changed the lyrics. Which I assume implies re-recording the bit? Only two days passed from the criticism on Twitter to her taking action. Wow.
posted by bitteschoen at 11:22 AM on June 14, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by bitteschoen at 11:22 AM on June 14, 2022 [3 favorites]
As others have said, and many others will...
That is how you do it.
posted by Windopaene at 11:49 AM on June 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
That is how you do it.
posted by Windopaene at 11:49 AM on June 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
Good on her!
As simultaneously a retro-grouch Gen-Xer and someone who doesn’t buy physical media anymore, I got to ask: was physical media to be released, or does that no longer happen by default? I would have to assume if there were, it’d be in the pipeline, and we’re at the whole “original lyric version” black market for those copies.
posted by MrGuilt at 11:49 AM on June 14, 2022 [3 favorites]
As simultaneously a retro-grouch Gen-Xer and someone who doesn’t buy physical media anymore, I got to ask: was physical media to be released, or does that no longer happen by default? I would have to assume if there were, it’d be in the pipeline, and we’re at the whole “original lyric version” black market for those copies.
posted by MrGuilt at 11:49 AM on June 14, 2022 [3 favorites]
As someone who has Spastic Paraparesis? And uses forearm crutches because of it? I am grateful and overjoyed that she did this, and realized the damage that that ableist label can cause.
posted by spinifex23 at 11:49 AM on June 14, 2022 [63 favorites]
posted by spinifex23 at 11:49 AM on June 14, 2022 [63 favorites]
Such a fast and awesome response. It is so nice to see someone acknowledging and fixing a mistake instead of half-apologies and excuses.
posted by Dip Flash at 12:09 PM on June 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by Dip Flash at 12:09 PM on June 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
"Apologies" (or, really, apologoid utterances) by public figures have never been more numerous and omnipresent than they are today, yet paradoxically, 99.9% of them are complete noise or trash. Really refreshing to see apology modeled so well.
posted by dusty potato at 12:28 PM on June 14, 2022 [10 favorites]
posted by dusty potato at 12:28 PM on June 14, 2022 [10 favorites]
I am an old white guy Deadhead. I had a chance to see Lizzo perform in Austin several years ago. Part of a bigger festival. While I was clearly not the crowd's demographic, I can say that she put on a great show. Really entertaining. As it turns out, not only is Lizzo a terrific talent, she is a genuinely good person too. Good on her for being true to her values.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 12:40 PM on June 14, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by JohnnyGunn at 12:40 PM on June 14, 2022 [7 favorites]
"I'm sorry you got so upset...I'm a work in progress...I meant no offense....I hear you, I need to listen....cancel culture strikes again...that's not who I am!"
On and on. When someone immediately gets it like LIzzo you wonder why it's so RARE.
posted by mygraycatbongo at 12:41 PM on June 14, 2022 [8 favorites]
On and on. When someone immediately gets it like LIzzo you wonder why it's so RARE.
posted by mygraycatbongo at 12:41 PM on June 14, 2022 [8 favorites]
I learned something new today
posted by mikeinclifton at 12:46 PM on June 14, 2022
posted by mikeinclifton at 12:46 PM on June 14, 2022
When someone immediately gets it like Lizzo you wonder why it's so RARE.
Consideration, kindness, thoughtfulness, generosity and basically being a decent person are sadly out of style these days. All thanks and praise to the people, like Lizzo, who model good behavior for everyone else.
posted by scratch at 1:07 PM on June 14, 2022 [6 favorites]
Consideration, kindness, thoughtfulness, generosity and basically being a decent person are sadly out of style these days. All thanks and praise to the people, like Lizzo, who model good behavior for everyone else.
posted by scratch at 1:07 PM on June 14, 2022 [6 favorites]
On and on. When someone immediately gets it like LIzzo you wonder why it's so RARE.
This is me spit-balling and generalizing, but I'm going to say -- a big part of it is likely the tremendous privilege it generally takes to get into the rarified air of needing to make public apologies. The kinds of people to whom fame comes more readily aren't as used to being on the receiving end of slurs or the subsequent bullshit apologies.
It is no accident that this apology comes from a fat, black woman. She knows how words can hurt, because she's no doubt had plenty of hurtful words hurled in her direction both generally and specifically. It doesn't insulate her from ever fucking up, as we see here, but I imagine she feels the fuckup more viscerally than a typical white dude rock star would.
posted by jacquilynne at 1:27 PM on June 14, 2022 [49 favorites]
This is me spit-balling and generalizing, but I'm going to say -- a big part of it is likely the tremendous privilege it generally takes to get into the rarified air of needing to make public apologies. The kinds of people to whom fame comes more readily aren't as used to being on the receiving end of slurs or the subsequent bullshit apologies.
It is no accident that this apology comes from a fat, black woman. She knows how words can hurt, because she's no doubt had plenty of hurtful words hurled in her direction both generally and specifically. It doesn't insulate her from ever fucking up, as we see here, but I imagine she feels the fuckup more viscerally than a typical white dude rock star would.
posted by jacquilynne at 1:27 PM on June 14, 2022 [49 favorites]
Amazing. The talent to re-write and re-record her vocal line over the weekend, after listening to all the "Why This Song Stinks" posted below with terrible thoughtless lyrics has me even more impressed. Nothing else to say. Amazing.
posted by The_Vegetables at 2:10 PM on June 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by The_Vegetables at 2:10 PM on June 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
On and on. When someone immediately gets it like LIzzo you wonder why it's so RARE.
I think part of it is audience/community culture. Who is Lizzo's serious fanbase? I bet most of them are people who are in internet and social milieux where apologizing and desisting from a hurtful behavior are valued and respected, even if people don't always do it themselves. And where just casually using slurs, in ignorance or not, is frowned upon. Lizzo does not have to choose between her behavior and making her fans happy, and she is not constantly surrounded by a fan culture which cheers her on for being mean and selfish. I think that a good fan culture helps promote a virtuous circle.
posted by Frowner at 2:12 PM on June 14, 2022 [13 favorites]
I think part of it is audience/community culture. Who is Lizzo's serious fanbase? I bet most of them are people who are in internet and social milieux where apologizing and desisting from a hurtful behavior are valued and respected, even if people don't always do it themselves. And where just casually using slurs, in ignorance or not, is frowned upon. Lizzo does not have to choose between her behavior and making her fans happy, and she is not constantly surrounded by a fan culture which cheers her on for being mean and selfish. I think that a good fan culture helps promote a virtuous circle.
posted by Frowner at 2:12 PM on June 14, 2022 [13 favorites]
Your move, Mark Knopfler
posted by condour75 at 2:20 PM on June 14, 2022 [12 favorites]
posted by condour75 at 2:20 PM on June 14, 2022 [12 favorites]
I didn't know that was a slur. I thought it was just a general term for a "wacky" or distracted type of behavior. Learn something new every day!
Also: whats this about Mark Knopfler?
posted by SoberHighland at 3:32 PM on June 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
Also: whats this about Mark Knopfler?
posted by SoberHighland at 3:32 PM on June 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
I think condour75 is referring to the repeated use of a homophobic slur in Dire Strait's Money for Nothing.
posted by rube goldberg at 3:45 PM on June 14, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by rube goldberg at 3:45 PM on June 14, 2022 [6 favorites]
@ MrGuilt- if she's putting out the album on vinyl (and cd), it's too late given the length of time it takes to get physical media produced. but for digital singles, easy to re-record and push to media outlets.
good for lizzo.
posted by europeandaughter at 4:06 PM on June 14, 2022
good for lizzo.
posted by europeandaughter at 4:06 PM on June 14, 2022
I could swear I heard that the particular word in question was derogatory back in maybe the mid 90s in New England? (Same with the shortened form of schizophrenic that appears in some earlier Janelle Monae lyrics.) But clearly that percolated to different subcultures in North America at different rates. Excellent example-setting from Lizzo, in any case. As jacquilynne noted, not surprising that, of any major pop musician, it would be Lizzo, but heartening nonetheless.
posted by eviemath at 4:12 PM on June 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by eviemath at 4:12 PM on June 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
On and on. When someone immediately gets it like LIzzo you wonder why it's so RARE.
This is something I've been thinking about A LOT lately, why is it so hard for people to just apologize, when that is not only the right thing to do in these situations, but the smartest PR move too. I think there are a few reasons:
- A lot of people have trouble with the basic concept that being told you did something wrong is not the same as being told you are a horrible, worthless person. And in twitter mobs, the latter message does sometimes come out. So people feel like they need to reassert that they are not bad people. It's a message for themselves, not their fans or the people they have harmed. It's what they should be saying to their partners/friends/therapists to get it out of their system before they issue a statement. But a lot of people don't know how to take that step back.
- People with narcissistic tendencies have an especially hard time with the above, and, well, people with narcissistic tendencies are over-represented among the groups of people who have a big enough platform to get in this kind of trouble. I think they're also the most likely to have trouble admitting they did something wrong, which is necessary for a true apology.
- I think in some cases, especially with institutions, there may be legal advice involved, and lawyers will sometimes advise people NOT to apologize specifically because a true apology is an admission of guilt. I don't think this is the case in matters like this, but I imagine it's at play sometimes. And you can wind up with institutional cultures where there's so much fear of litigation, that the organization/its leadership just really does not know how to apologize.
posted by lunasol at 4:13 PM on June 14, 2022 [9 favorites]
This is something I've been thinking about A LOT lately, why is it so hard for people to just apologize, when that is not only the right thing to do in these situations, but the smartest PR move too. I think there are a few reasons:
- A lot of people have trouble with the basic concept that being told you did something wrong is not the same as being told you are a horrible, worthless person. And in twitter mobs, the latter message does sometimes come out. So people feel like they need to reassert that they are not bad people. It's a message for themselves, not their fans or the people they have harmed. It's what they should be saying to their partners/friends/therapists to get it out of their system before they issue a statement. But a lot of people don't know how to take that step back.
- People with narcissistic tendencies have an especially hard time with the above, and, well, people with narcissistic tendencies are over-represented among the groups of people who have a big enough platform to get in this kind of trouble. I think they're also the most likely to have trouble admitting they did something wrong, which is necessary for a true apology.
- I think in some cases, especially with institutions, there may be legal advice involved, and lawyers will sometimes advise people NOT to apologize specifically because a true apology is an admission of guilt. I don't think this is the case in matters like this, but I imagine it's at play sometimes. And you can wind up with institutional cultures where there's so much fear of litigation, that the organization/its leadership just really does not know how to apologize.
posted by lunasol at 4:13 PM on June 14, 2022 [9 favorites]
For anyone else who couldn’t find it, here’s the change from an AV Club article: “On the original first verse of the track, Lizzo raps: “Hold my bag, bitch, hold my bag/Do you see this shit? I’ma sp*z.” In the new version, the lyric has been changed to: “Do you see this shit? Hold me back.”
posted by michaelh at 4:46 PM on June 14, 2022 [11 favorites]
posted by michaelh at 4:46 PM on June 14, 2022 [11 favorites]
Thanks, I was looking for that! It’s SUCH a good line change, too. Props for being so responsive AND quick-witted.
posted by Night_owl at 5:39 PM on June 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by Night_owl at 5:39 PM on June 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
wow dang the rewrite is arguably a much cleverer line too
posted by DoctorFedora at 6:18 PM on June 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by DoctorFedora at 6:18 PM on June 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
As someone who has followed Lizzo for ... nearly 10 years now (wow), I think she's still someone who is still trying to figure out that she's (super) famous and what that means. That's not making excuses for her because she's in her 30s. But I think she was used to messing up in a much smaller way while putting it all out there. So yes, being a human being, she's going to make mistakes and those mistakes can be messy. I like her a lot and I've always been rooting for her but she's flawed and that's a huge part of why I like her.
This was a good apology and a good change. She'll probably make some mistakes again but I like that she's always willing to learn. She's open to that. She's not going to be perfect all the time or any of the time. None of us are. The best we can do is make it right later.
posted by edencosmic at 6:19 PM on June 14, 2022 [7 favorites]
This was a good apology and a good change. She'll probably make some mistakes again but I like that she's always willing to learn. She's open to that. She's not going to be perfect all the time or any of the time. None of us are. The best we can do is make it right later.
posted by edencosmic at 6:19 PM on June 14, 2022 [7 favorites]
Historically, it's been one of those "US vs. UK" divergences
Exactly this. In the U.S., I think that word is used as a stand-in for "clumsy" or "awkward" or "silly." In the U.K. it's a derogatory version of "spastic," and is used to disparage a range of people with disabilities--the U.S. equivalent might be the R-word? Which, if Lizzo had used that, it would be easy to see why people got upset.
Anyway, good on her for apologizing, fixing it, and moving on.
posted by zardoz at 1:17 AM on June 15, 2022
Exactly this. In the U.S., I think that word is used as a stand-in for "clumsy" or "awkward" or "silly." In the U.K. it's a derogatory version of "spastic," and is used to disparage a range of people with disabilities--the U.S. equivalent might be the R-word? Which, if Lizzo had used that, it would be easy to see why people got upset.
Anyway, good on her for apologizing, fixing it, and moving on.
posted by zardoz at 1:17 AM on June 15, 2022
"In the U.S., I think that word is used as a stand-in for "clumsy" or "awkward" or "silly." In the U.K. it's a derogatory version of..."
I ran into literally this here on MetaFilter many years ago. I used the AmE version of the word, several people read it as the BrE version of the word. I was surprised to find myself severely admonished and was pretty confused until we fumbled our way through determining the dialect difference.
posted by majick at 6:06 AM on June 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
I ran into literally this here on MetaFilter many years ago. I used the AmE version of the word, several people read it as the BrE version of the word. I was surprised to find myself severely admonished and was pretty confused until we fumbled our way through determining the dialect difference.
posted by majick at 6:06 AM on June 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
The main point of my comment is that it’s not a US/UK difference in usage, at least not universally within the US, since I, in the US, knew that it was a derogatory term decades ago.
posted by eviemath at 6:57 AM on June 15, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by eviemath at 6:57 AM on June 15, 2022 [8 favorites]
It's my impression that the two aren't different words -- they're the same word and have the same insulting origin. Somehow it's gotten further divorced form its meaning in the US, perhaps because people with spastic disorders like cerebral palsy or MS are or were more likely to be labelled with their specific condition than with a broader label of 'spastic'. So you end up with fewer people knowing that the term has really awful origins, but that doesn't erase the really awful origins.
posted by jacquilynne at 7:17 AM on June 15, 2022 [15 favorites]
posted by jacquilynne at 7:17 AM on June 15, 2022 [15 favorites]
It's clearly not universal usage, but perhaps there's an east/west differentiation in the US as well? The (presumed) AmE sense was more than a little prominent here in the Pacific coastal states entirely through the 80s, the decade where my own linguistic habits firmed up. As we can see from this very post and the several similar incidents over the years, awareness of the BrE sense has not thoroughly spread even today.
Ableist language is really, really hard to stamp out and it helps to know why people are using the terms they do.
posted by majick at 7:21 AM on June 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
Ableist language is really, really hard to stamp out and it helps to know why people are using the terms they do.
posted by majick at 7:21 AM on June 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
I've never heard it as a stand-in for 'clumsy' that anyone would call themselves who wasn't put upon and trying not to take a punch. Tom Brady or Lebron James for example would not call themself that if they slipped in a puddle on the field or court. It's always been derogatory.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:30 AM on June 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:30 AM on June 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
Yep, I'm American and heard this used as a slur all the time growing up. I say "slur" because of the way it was uttered; the venom in people's voices was so strong! But that doesn't seem to be the experience most other people have had, so I've given up fighting on this one. I can't believe someone actually apologized for using it... Like, genuinely shocked.
I already liked Lizzo. As an autistic person who masks well and saw other neurodivergent kids getting insulted with this word almost daily in school, well... I'm grateful there's at least one person making music today who doesn't hate me and everyone like me.
posted by the liquid oxygen at 9:46 AM on June 15, 2022 [6 favorites]
I already liked Lizzo. As an autistic person who masks well and saw other neurodivergent kids getting insulted with this word almost daily in school, well... I'm grateful there's at least one person making music today who doesn't hate me and everyone like me.
posted by the liquid oxygen at 9:46 AM on June 15, 2022 [6 favorites]
That's really interesting context about regional differences between the UK/US and within the US. Growing up on the east coast in the 80s and 90s, I never heard it used as an insult or a slur - if anything, it was a word people would use self-deprecatingly. But I do remember seeing it used more harshly in movies or books, especially (but not only) from earlier decades. Knowing the difference in usage helps me understand why it is a slur, so I appreciate that.
posted by lunasol at 10:24 AM on June 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by lunasol at 10:24 AM on June 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
I also grew up on the west coast, hearing this word used regularly as a synonym for "clumsy", and neither I nor the people using it knew its origins. The origins are clear when explained, though, and there is no real explanation for why "it's okay to use now" that holds water once you understand the history. Similarly, I grew up hearing and using a slur against Roma people as a word for "cheat". None of us knew its origins, either, and we mostly didn't even know any Roma people. And yet still, when I learned the word's origins, it became clear that using the word was unacceptable. Stopping the use of a word which you never meant to offend anyone with is always kind of hard, and people get defensive. They didn't mean it that way! But accepting that other people are hurt by it is enough. I'm sure I will learn this lesson more times about more words as I get older; I hope I can keep my mind open in those cases, too.
posted by agentofselection at 10:29 AM on June 15, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by agentofselection at 10:29 AM on June 15, 2022 [8 favorites]
It may be useful to keep in mind the distinction between an individual knowingly using something as a slur versus the word or phrase being, or being received as, a slur. Whether folks in this thread knew it or not in the 80s or 90s is kind of immaterial to whether the word in question is and has been a slur. Perhaps we can avoid derailing this thread celebrating Lizzo’s excellent response to learning something she didn’t previously know with multiple examples of the more common and less exemplary response? (With apologies for my comments contributing in somewhat egging on this derail.)
posted by eviemath at 7:23 AM on June 16, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by eviemath at 7:23 AM on June 16, 2022 [3 favorites]
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Lizzo is terrific.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:31 AM on June 14, 2022 [88 favorites]