Hit me in the chest—just punch me. Punch me in the chest. COME ON!
June 24, 2022 4:02 PM Subscribe
Too intellectual for me. I'm a Simple man. Prefer Benny Hill slapstick.
posted by Czjewel at 4:30 PM on June 24, 2022
posted by Czjewel at 4:30 PM on June 24, 2022
I've laughed with Stewart and Colbert and Oliver and all the rest, but now I'm angry I did and angry that they made careers of making entertainment out of the long slide towards fascism the United States has been on.
That's on all USA citizens though.
posted by Pendragon at 4:46 PM on June 24, 2022 [19 favorites]
That's on all USA citizens though.
posted by Pendragon at 4:46 PM on June 24, 2022 [19 favorites]
I’ve laughed with Stewart and Colbert and Oliver and all the rest, but now I'm angry I did and angry that they made careers of making entertainment out of the long slide towards fascism the United States has been on.
I don’t think they were doing a “ha, ha, this is fine” bit, really.
posted by Going To Maine at 4:55 PM on June 24, 2022 [69 favorites]
I don’t think they were doing a “ha, ha, this is fine” bit, really.
posted by Going To Maine at 4:55 PM on June 24, 2022 [69 favorites]
This was the only thing today that brought me any kind of joy. Between my Canadian girlfriend wanting to know if we are ok, my wife breaking down and sobbing on the stairs, and my seven-year-old daughter telling me that I couldn't tell her what to do with her life, it's been a rollercoaster.
posted by gwydapllew at 5:03 PM on June 24, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by gwydapllew at 5:03 PM on June 24, 2022 [4 favorites]
Samantha Bee said right in her speech that their satire didn’t change the world. If there are people who thought it was going to, I don’t think I knew them. But it kept me relatively sane at the time.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 5:48 PM on June 24, 2022 [15 favorites]
posted by The Underpants Monster at 5:48 PM on June 24, 2022 [15 favorites]
If I have one wish for Jon Stewart, it is this:
I wish he would finish the job of fucking destroying Tucker Fucking Carlson because, goddamn. He did it once, but sonuvvabitch, he didn’t stay down. Go grab Steven and Conan and just triple-team that asshole until he is humiliated in a way that goes down in history.
Look, I know that this wish does not speak well of my character, and that’s on me. But if Tucker Carlson is still employed or employable by anyone In 2024, that’s on … we’ll, it’s on Fox, but you should have tried.
posted by JustSayNoDawg at 6:00 PM on June 24, 2022 [26 favorites]
I wish he would finish the job of fucking destroying Tucker Fucking Carlson because, goddamn. He did it once, but sonuvvabitch, he didn’t stay down. Go grab Steven and Conan and just triple-team that asshole until he is humiliated in a way that goes down in history.
Look, I know that this wish does not speak well of my character, and that’s on me. But if Tucker Carlson is still employed or employable by anyone In 2024, that’s on … we’ll, it’s on Fox, but you should have tried.
posted by JustSayNoDawg at 6:00 PM on June 24, 2022 [26 favorites]
I really enjoyed John Oliver's tribute. It seems based off of a deep knowledge of who Jon was but also gave two space to give honest appreciation.
posted by Carillon at 6:00 PM on June 24, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by Carillon at 6:00 PM on June 24, 2022 [4 favorites]
JustSayNoDawg, I think your wish speaks quite highly of your character.
posted by Ayn Marx at 6:55 PM on June 24, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by Ayn Marx at 6:55 PM on June 24, 2022 [4 favorites]
I've laughed with Stewart and Colbert and Oliver and all the rest, but now I'm angry I did and angry that they made careers of making entertainment out of the long slide towards fascism the United States has been on.
I'm with you.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 8:05 PM on June 24, 2022 [1 favorite]
I'm with you.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 8:05 PM on June 24, 2022 [1 favorite]
I've laughed with Stewart and Colbert and Oliver and all the rest, but now I'm angry I did and angry that they made careers of making entertainment out of the long slide towards fascism the United States has been on.
That's on all USA citizens though.
I know we are discouraged from psychoanalyzing people on the Internet but it’s hard not to take this primarily as an expression of “I feel bad that I didn’t do enough.”
I do think one could fairly be mad about what Stewart did with his platform in e.g. the “Rally to Restore Sanity” centrist phase, but just because we’ve learned bitterly that satire isn’t the same as effective politics doesn’t mean that any of us would have counterfactually been doing effective politics.
posted by atoxyl at 9:45 PM on June 24, 2022 [12 favorites]
That's on all USA citizens though.
I know we are discouraged from psychoanalyzing people on the Internet but it’s hard not to take this primarily as an expression of “I feel bad that I didn’t do enough.”
I do think one could fairly be mad about what Stewart did with his platform in e.g. the “Rally to Restore Sanity” centrist phase, but just because we’ve learned bitterly that satire isn’t the same as effective politics doesn’t mean that any of us would have counterfactually been doing effective politics.
posted by atoxyl at 9:45 PM on June 24, 2022 [12 favorites]
I've laughed with Stewart and Colbert and Oliver and all the rest, but now I'm angry I did and angry that they made careers of making entertainment out of the long slide towards fascism the United States has been on.
Yeah, it's worth looking at the difference in how Stewart and the rest tend to work for liberals and Tucker Carlson and his ilk work for the right. The Stewart brand of political comedy can make one feel better for seeming to unveil the stupidity behind the actions of the right through a somewhat hyperbolic distillation of the faulty logic behind it all, allowing the viewer to see they are not alone and in naming the ills making it feel like they will be better seen and acted on, providing some sense of relief that allows people to carry on with their lives in the face of such hateful idiocy.
That of course though is also the problem, making it easier to carry on as if things will be fine can lessen the sense of urgency, of needing to do something right now because the threat is not looming or even on the doorstep but already in the house wrecking the place. Tucker Carlson and his ilk don't do that, they heighten the sense of urgency, increase the sense of immediate peril and threat and in doing so get their viewers to act in the face of all evidence telling them what they hear is lies. They aren't trying to make their audience feel good so things can carry on, they are inciting them to act now. And it works. Norms are violated and gains made which are left to stand because of the value placed in maintaining the ability to sensibly carry on as if the norms still had the same logic to them as before.
posted by gusottertrout at 10:04 PM on June 24, 2022 [13 favorites]
Yeah, it's worth looking at the difference in how Stewart and the rest tend to work for liberals and Tucker Carlson and his ilk work for the right. The Stewart brand of political comedy can make one feel better for seeming to unveil the stupidity behind the actions of the right through a somewhat hyperbolic distillation of the faulty logic behind it all, allowing the viewer to see they are not alone and in naming the ills making it feel like they will be better seen and acted on, providing some sense of relief that allows people to carry on with their lives in the face of such hateful idiocy.
That of course though is also the problem, making it easier to carry on as if things will be fine can lessen the sense of urgency, of needing to do something right now because the threat is not looming or even on the doorstep but already in the house wrecking the place. Tucker Carlson and his ilk don't do that, they heighten the sense of urgency, increase the sense of immediate peril and threat and in doing so get their viewers to act in the face of all evidence telling them what they hear is lies. They aren't trying to make their audience feel good so things can carry on, they are inciting them to act now. And it works. Norms are violated and gains made which are left to stand because of the value placed in maintaining the ability to sensibly carry on as if the norms still had the same logic to them as before.
posted by gusottertrout at 10:04 PM on June 24, 2022 [13 favorites]
I suppose Jon Stewart could have made it his vocation to play fast and loose with the truth and be perpetually outraged in order to scare people into doing what he thought was right.
But I have an awfully hard time believing he ought to have done that.
posted by straight at 10:12 PM on June 24, 2022 [26 favorites]
But I have an awfully hard time believing he ought to have done that.
posted by straight at 10:12 PM on June 24, 2022 [26 favorites]
Making it a question about Jon Stewart rather than the social problems is kinda the issue. Thinking in terms of celebrity and entertainment is inherently distancing, celebrity being unavoidably unequal and entertainment being oppositional to action, but people do like to laugh so I guess that evens things out.
posted by gusottertrout at 11:00 PM on June 24, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by gusottertrout at 11:00 PM on June 24, 2022 [2 favorites]
I've laughed with Stewart and Colbert and Oliver and all the rest, but now I'm angry I did and angry that they made careers of making entertainment out of the long slide towards fascism the United States has been on.
It has been argued that The Revolution was deferred in Britain because broadcasting Spitting Image every Sunday night 1984-1995 gave people a safety valve for their outrage. Dopier pols like Ronald Reagan wanted the show cancelled, but the Tories recognized its value . . . and relished seeing party rivals being lampooned.
posted by BobTheScientist at 11:51 PM on June 24, 2022 [1 favorite]
It has been argued that The Revolution was deferred in Britain because broadcasting Spitting Image every Sunday night 1984-1995 gave people a safety valve for their outrage. Dopier pols like Ronald Reagan wanted the show cancelled, but the Tories recognized its value . . . and relished seeing party rivals being lampooned.
posted by BobTheScientist at 11:51 PM on June 24, 2022 [1 favorite]
on a lighter note, "Teaching you to drink responsibly" is one of my most cherished memories of tv: seeing Colbert or Carrell now almost always reminds me of it - it was stupid and hilarious.
Yes, Stewart "should have done more" but so should we, the voting and tax paying public. It's a democracy if we can keep it and more and more I think we are underestimating the effort being put into dismantling it. I don't mean we don't _want_ to keep it, I just think the extent of the undermining (that it is bucks for laws is bad, even when it benefits 'us') is far, far deeper and far more jealously guarded than we have imagined.
And that's not on Stewart, a comedian, and though I get the point that, while he had the bully pulpit he should have done more - I think he did a hell of a lot - it is up to our elected representatives to do more (and we as the people to find better representatives when they didn't deliver.) Stewart's job - and all I expected or wanted from him - was a good chuckle. And he delivered that with aplomb.
(This is a particularly American TM affliction - to conflate celebrity with political value - there is some intersection, of course, in terms of recognition, but that's not the whole Megillah and this skewing is symptomatic of a greater illness.)
posted by From Bklyn at 1:05 AM on June 25, 2022 [10 favorites]
Yes, Stewart "should have done more" but so should we, the voting and tax paying public. It's a democracy if we can keep it and more and more I think we are underestimating the effort being put into dismantling it. I don't mean we don't _want_ to keep it, I just think the extent of the undermining (that it is bucks for laws is bad, even when it benefits 'us') is far, far deeper and far more jealously guarded than we have imagined.
And that's not on Stewart, a comedian, and though I get the point that, while he had the bully pulpit he should have done more - I think he did a hell of a lot - it is up to our elected representatives to do more (and we as the people to find better representatives when they didn't deliver.) Stewart's job - and all I expected or wanted from him - was a good chuckle. And he delivered that with aplomb.
(This is a particularly American TM affliction - to conflate celebrity with political value - there is some intersection, of course, in terms of recognition, but that's not the whole Megillah and this skewing is symptomatic of a greater illness.)
posted by From Bklyn at 1:05 AM on June 25, 2022 [10 favorites]
A few thoughts:
1) Billy Bragg once said that no protest song could change the world, but that what it could do is remind like-minded listeners that they were not alone and encourage them towards collective action. I think The Daily Show did something similar, and that's valuable in itself. I loved Stewart's ability to "be silly while giving a damn" (as Colbert put it) and that's still a rare quality today.
2) That said, the Daily Show segments I used to worry about were always the one which sent correspondents to a Trump rally to make fun of his supporters. These amounted to a bunch of slick TV people from New York repeatedly saying "Look how stupid these stupid hicks are" and, if anything, probably acted as a recruiting sergeant for Trump.
3) Gusottertrout's point about all of us outside the crazy right needing to do more is a powerful one. The Maganauts & their fellow travellers often appear more focused and more determined that we are, and are willing to work relentlessly for years on step-by-step changes to signature issues like abortion and guns. All too often, we seem to be on the wrong side of Yeats' warning: "The best lack all conviction while the the worst are full of passionate intensity".
4) I think most satirists are well aware of their limits as far as real-world change is concerned. Peter Cook summed this up well when opening his Establishment club back in 1961. The club would be London's answer, he said, to "those wonderful Berlin cabarets which did so much to stop the rise of Hitler and prevent the outbreak of the Second World War".
posted by Paul Slade at 1:50 AM on June 25, 2022 [22 favorites]
1) Billy Bragg once said that no protest song could change the world, but that what it could do is remind like-minded listeners that they were not alone and encourage them towards collective action. I think The Daily Show did something similar, and that's valuable in itself. I loved Stewart's ability to "be silly while giving a damn" (as Colbert put it) and that's still a rare quality today.
2) That said, the Daily Show segments I used to worry about were always the one which sent correspondents to a Trump rally to make fun of his supporters. These amounted to a bunch of slick TV people from New York repeatedly saying "Look how stupid these stupid hicks are" and, if anything, probably acted as a recruiting sergeant for Trump.
3) Gusottertrout's point about all of us outside the crazy right needing to do more is a powerful one. The Maganauts & their fellow travellers often appear more focused and more determined that we are, and are willing to work relentlessly for years on step-by-step changes to signature issues like abortion and guns. All too often, we seem to be on the wrong side of Yeats' warning: "The best lack all conviction while the the worst are full of passionate intensity".
4) I think most satirists are well aware of their limits as far as real-world change is concerned. Peter Cook summed this up well when opening his Establishment club back in 1961. The club would be London's answer, he said, to "those wonderful Berlin cabarets which did so much to stop the rise of Hitler and prevent the outbreak of the Second World War".
posted by Paul Slade at 1:50 AM on June 25, 2022 [22 favorites]
I've laughed with Stewart and Colbert and Oliver and all the rest, but now I'm angry I did and angry that they made careers of making entertainment out of the long slide towards fascism the United States has been on.
I feel likewise, though less so about Oliver.
Colbert these days is sickening with his useless, fawning interviews and edging ever so close to Maher with his clapping seal audiences. Gag inducing.
Stewart and Colbert and Letterman have the power and followings to tackle serious subjects with intelligent people and instead they opt for garbage. Letterman choosing Kanye and Ryan Reynolds for "in depth" interviews is insulting, for instance.
Where's today's equivalent to Cavett, for instance? Can you imagine any one of those three doing this today? I can't.
posted by dobbs at 6:34 AM on June 25, 2022 [9 favorites]
I feel likewise, though less so about Oliver.
Colbert these days is sickening with his useless, fawning interviews and edging ever so close to Maher with his clapping seal audiences. Gag inducing.
Stewart and Colbert and Letterman have the power and followings to tackle serious subjects with intelligent people and instead they opt for garbage. Letterman choosing Kanye and Ryan Reynolds for "in depth" interviews is insulting, for instance.
Where's today's equivalent to Cavett, for instance? Can you imagine any one of those three doing this today? I can't.
posted by dobbs at 6:34 AM on June 25, 2022 [9 favorites]
I am a Patreon patron for Ian Danskin, the guy who does the Alt-Right Playbook videos, and he had a pretty terrible pandemic so has shared early a script for an upcoming video, about far-right communication styles. It is relevant in this thread because Oliver in particular (but by extension, Stewart) are the punching bags for the upcoming video, as supposedly 'liberal' communicators who mostly reinforce conservative narratives.
An effective argument leads with the main point first, because whatever you present first is what people remember; liberals like Oliver almost always establish the conservative claim first and then their counter-narrative. Conservatives lead with their claim; journalists lead with the most newsworthy claim and then the counter-claim (to the point where it's a cliche that the last paragraph of the article has the scientist going 'lol no').
Oliver is particularly bad when it comes to framing his entire argument in such a way that he's mostly presenting conservative arguments, as if he's trying to convince a conservative - who aren't watching his show. As a result, his show splits the difference trying to address a hypothetical "reasonable conservative" - Danskin has an example where, when talking about immigration, Oliver effectively endorses the Great Replacement. Oliver will even show clips, platforming the conservatives he's trying to debunk!
He's also generally pretty bad at acknowledging existing framings on issues, particularly conservative framings, and tends to lean into conservative framing of issues while supposedly debunking them. Framing is something the left tends to be pretty bad at - possibly the only successful example of framing on the left recently has been the Black Lives Matter movement, which gets its power from the fact that its framing seems extremely modest, so reactions to it seem hysterical by comparison.
posted by Merus at 10:33 AM on June 25, 2022 [8 favorites]
An effective argument leads with the main point first, because whatever you present first is what people remember; liberals like Oliver almost always establish the conservative claim first and then their counter-narrative. Conservatives lead with their claim; journalists lead with the most newsworthy claim and then the counter-claim (to the point where it's a cliche that the last paragraph of the article has the scientist going 'lol no').
Oliver is particularly bad when it comes to framing his entire argument in such a way that he's mostly presenting conservative arguments, as if he's trying to convince a conservative - who aren't watching his show. As a result, his show splits the difference trying to address a hypothetical "reasonable conservative" - Danskin has an example where, when talking about immigration, Oliver effectively endorses the Great Replacement. Oliver will even show clips, platforming the conservatives he's trying to debunk!
He's also generally pretty bad at acknowledging existing framings on issues, particularly conservative framings, and tends to lean into conservative framing of issues while supposedly debunking them. Framing is something the left tends to be pretty bad at - possibly the only successful example of framing on the left recently has been the Black Lives Matter movement, which gets its power from the fact that its framing seems extremely modest, so reactions to it seem hysterical by comparison.
posted by Merus at 10:33 AM on June 25, 2022 [8 favorites]
The failure to stem the tide of American fascism occurred in the boardrooms, law offices, and private clubs, where the owners of America’s media empires decided, again and again, that short term profits and social cordiality were preferable to any effort to curb or counter the fascist noise machine.
Stewart, et al. don’t own the networks, they did the best they could with the platforms they had.
posted by Jon_Evil at 10:36 AM on June 25, 2022 [7 favorites]
Stewart, et al. don’t own the networks, they did the best they could with the platforms they had.
posted by Jon_Evil at 10:36 AM on June 25, 2022 [7 favorites]
Jon Stewart might not be personally responsible for every failing of Bush-era liberalism. However, one thing we can say for certain is that he is responsible for continuing to promote the lab leak theory, with seemingly no regard for what impact that has on rising hate crimes against Asian-Americans. Saying this as a person who was a big fan back in the day—I hope he continues to stay reclusive. We don't need him.
posted by cultanthropologist at 11:04 AM on June 25, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by cultanthropologist at 11:04 AM on June 25, 2022 [8 favorites]
Oh my, that Drink Responsibly video... Oh my, the first time I got shit-faced drunk. Totally a memorable night. A favorite story, at least the bits I remember. Ended up dumped in my front yard to crawl/stumble in to bed. It was a surprising and memorable first for everyone involved.
If funny was elevated to reality, it wouldn't be funny. Humor is like preaching religion or therapy, you need a safe space to get tickled. It's pleasure, not proselytizing. It's only fun when there is already a sense of consent.
One can't a comedian to cater to themself. Pick another comedian. It's the same as picking another therapist or minister. It's not there for you to change, it's there for you to decide or switch. It's there for what it gives to others that may not be you.
posted by zengargoyle at 11:44 AM on June 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
If funny was elevated to reality, it wouldn't be funny. Humor is like preaching religion or therapy, you need a safe space to get tickled. It's pleasure, not proselytizing. It's only fun when there is already a sense of consent.
One can't a comedian to cater to themself. Pick another comedian. It's the same as picking another therapist or minister. It's not there for you to change, it's there for you to decide or switch. It's there for what it gives to others that may not be you.
posted by zengargoyle at 11:44 AM on June 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
However, one thing we can say for certain is that he is responsible for continuing to promote the lab leak theory
This.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 12:07 PM on June 25, 2022
This.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 12:07 PM on June 25, 2022
Oliver will even show clips, platforming the conservatives he's trying to debunk!
And Tucker Carlson - to whom other people in this thread have compared these liberal commentators unfavorably in terms of effectiveness - doesn’t show clips of his opposition?
(he does, though he does a better job priming the audience for an immediate negative response)
I’ll say it straight up - the obsession on the left with “not platforming people” is a resounding failure. They have platforms. Accidentally activating the audience’s conservative association circuits might be a problem for Oliver if a lot of “moderate conservatives” actually watched his show but I seriously doubt that. I have issues with his approach (basically with his lack of teeth) but that’s not one of them.
posted by atoxyl at 4:51 PM on June 25, 2022 [4 favorites]
And Tucker Carlson - to whom other people in this thread have compared these liberal commentators unfavorably in terms of effectiveness - doesn’t show clips of his opposition?
(he does, though he does a better job priming the audience for an immediate negative response)
I’ll say it straight up - the obsession on the left with “not platforming people” is a resounding failure. They have platforms. Accidentally activating the audience’s conservative association circuits might be a problem for Oliver if a lot of “moderate conservatives” actually watched his show but I seriously doubt that. I have issues with his approach (basically with his lack of teeth) but that’s not one of them.
posted by atoxyl at 4:51 PM on June 25, 2022 [4 favorites]
I think it's easy to Monday-morning-quarterback what someone should have done in retrospect, knowing now what the right thing would have been, and the sort of power or platform they had. I don't think either of those two things are always apparent at the time.
Insofar as I can tell—having never met the guy, I'm taking what's been said about him in public at face value—Stewart seems like a pretty decent human being. He appears to have some blind spots, but nothing that really suggests mendacity. It seems like he did what he thought would be meaningful at the time, even if (e.g. "Party to Restore Sanity") it looks pretty naive in retrospect.
And for sure, it's a bit odd that we hold a TV comedian to this high of a standard at all. I don't think Stewart deserves a fraction of the ire due to countless cowardly, ineffective, shortsighted, or just plain power-hungry politicians who shouldn't have allowed the US to get where it is, the greedy corporatists who sought to profit on chaos and decline, the actual news media, etc. The fact that a comedian, who did a fair bit to get political issues in front of a stereotypically disengaged audience, could have done more... it's the Mark Twain Prize, not sainthood. Jay Leno got one.
posted by Kadin2048 at 1:20 AM on June 26, 2022 [8 favorites]
Insofar as I can tell—having never met the guy, I'm taking what's been said about him in public at face value—Stewart seems like a pretty decent human being. He appears to have some blind spots, but nothing that really suggests mendacity. It seems like he did what he thought would be meaningful at the time, even if (e.g. "Party to Restore Sanity") it looks pretty naive in retrospect.
And for sure, it's a bit odd that we hold a TV comedian to this high of a standard at all. I don't think Stewart deserves a fraction of the ire due to countless cowardly, ineffective, shortsighted, or just plain power-hungry politicians who shouldn't have allowed the US to get where it is, the greedy corporatists who sought to profit on chaos and decline, the actual news media, etc. The fact that a comedian, who did a fair bit to get political issues in front of a stereotypically disengaged audience, could have done more... it's the Mark Twain Prize, not sainthood. Jay Leno got one.
posted by Kadin2048 at 1:20 AM on June 26, 2022 [8 favorites]
Well strictly speaking as a comedian, and judging Stewart's take on comedy, I'd say that him saying about Dave Cahppelle right after The Closer come out that it was "miscommunication, that his intention is never hurtful" and "a really good man".
And it's not surprising that Jon Oliver ends up structuring his long segments in ways reminiscent of establishing the conservative view first-- he's married to a rich Republican who was part of "Veterans For Freedom", a pro War in Iraq group with lots of ties to Republican campaigning. This also explains why he basically advocates for progressive stuff domestically, and imperialistic stuff internationally.
posted by ShawnStruck at 4:51 AM on June 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
And it's not surprising that Jon Oliver ends up structuring his long segments in ways reminiscent of establishing the conservative view first-- he's married to a rich Republican who was part of "Veterans For Freedom", a pro War in Iraq group with lots of ties to Republican campaigning. This also explains why he basically advocates for progressive stuff domestically, and imperialistic stuff internationally.
posted by ShawnStruck at 4:51 AM on June 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
Stewart, et al. don’t own the networks, they did the best they could with the platforms they had.
Stewart, et al. dutifully promoted Fox News making all of their personalities world famous when they should have been marginalized. No way 90% of liberals would know who Tucker Carlson is without late night television. It was and continues to be an unholy symbiotic relationship fomented by fascists in boardrooms and predicated on the fact that no publicity is bad publicity.
posted by any major dude at 5:02 AM on June 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
Stewart, et al. dutifully promoted Fox News making all of their personalities world famous when they should have been marginalized. No way 90% of liberals would know who Tucker Carlson is without late night television. It was and continues to be an unholy symbiotic relationship fomented by fascists in boardrooms and predicated on the fact that no publicity is bad publicity.
posted by any major dude at 5:02 AM on June 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
And for sure, it's a bit odd that we hold a TV comedian to this high of a standard at all.
I'll you raise you a few notches to fundamentally absurd. Reading this thread has had me feeling embarrassed for many whose politics align with mine in most regards, I'm pretty sure. But we do diverge when it comes to casting blame for everything that's wrong with where we are and how we got here ...
a recent for instance:
No way 90% of liberals would know who Tucker Carlson is without late night television.
I already had a well-formed dislike of Tucker fucking Carlson before John Stewart bothered to take him on. It was kind of hard to miss him if you watched any TV news at all given his presence on CNN from 2000 onward. And then after Carlson parted ways with CNN not long after Stewart famously called him out for being a dick in that Crossfire interview (did he quit? was he fired? a direct result of what happened with Stewart? hard to say), far from getting "cancelled", Carlson ended up with shows on those bastions of pre-fascism PBS and MSNBC.
Which I suppose goes some way toward proving the point ...
It was and continues to be an unholy symbiotic relationship fomented by fascists in boardrooms and predicated on the fact that no publicity is bad publicity.
that perhaps fascists in boardrooms have been behind it all from beginning. Though I'd switch out fascists with cynics as I think it's more accurate. Fascism does love a cynic, as do the shareholders more often than not -- nobody ever having gone broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people and all that.
My overall point being, I guess, that if you really want to find out who to the blame for Tucker Carlson's continued presence in the mediasphere, maybe start with the cynics doing the hiring and firing in big media who always saw a buck to be made in keeping such a smug prick in the spotlight. Though I suppose you can still fault Stewart for lacking the foresight and courage to not strangle him on the spot while he was within easy reach that night on Crossfire.
posted by philip-random at 8:06 AM on June 26, 2022 [10 favorites]
Where's today's equivalent to Cavett, for instance?Eating hot sauce on YouTube
posted by fullerine at 8:22 AM on June 26, 2022 [10 favorites]
Eating hot sauce on YouTube
Not even sure if you were being sarcastic or not, but Sean Evans is a legit great interviewer, and I will fight anyone who says different.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 8:44 AM on June 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
Not even sure if you were being sarcastic or not, but Sean Evans is a legit great interviewer, and I will fight anyone who says different.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 8:44 AM on June 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
I was being genuine.
He's spectacularly good
posted by fullerine at 9:15 AM on June 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
He's spectacularly good
posted by fullerine at 9:15 AM on June 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
As to the power of satire, it depends on when, how long, and in what way. I grew up as an avid reader of Mad Magazine, from maybe third grade through high school. My formative years, as they say. For roughly seven years. And the satire wasn’t whack you in the face. There were general themes - distrust authority, distrust the media, think for yourself.
Satire now? I will use Oliver as an example, as I am more familiar with his shtick. All three under discussion here are labeled as comedians, people who have to be funny. What drives me crazy is that Oliver can make some really good points and then undercut everything by then putting roughly the same material into the form of a joke, usually not even that funny. What that does is discount all his good points. Ha! Ha! If he dropped these stupid jokes, then I would listen and remember what was said. Instead all I’m left with is the thought that that was stupid.
I’m quite happy and pleased that I was a victim of Mad’s subtle brainwashing…
posted by njohnson23 at 9:18 AM on June 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
Satire now? I will use Oliver as an example, as I am more familiar with his shtick. All three under discussion here are labeled as comedians, people who have to be funny. What drives me crazy is that Oliver can make some really good points and then undercut everything by then putting roughly the same material into the form of a joke, usually not even that funny. What that does is discount all his good points. Ha! Ha! If he dropped these stupid jokes, then I would listen and remember what was said. Instead all I’m left with is the thought that that was stupid.
I’m quite happy and pleased that I was a victim of Mad’s subtle brainwashing…
posted by njohnson23 at 9:18 AM on June 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
I was once warned to not wear that shirt to school. it read: Question Authority, Think for Yourself. Humor is telling the truth by leading you down the opposite path to an obviously wrong conclusion. If it made sense, it wouldn't be funny. Mundane isn't funny, you can't tickle yourself. Truth isn't funny, you already know it. Funny is that path that leads you along to a destination it's a different destination and you realize that the same path leads both places and you chose the wrong one... until the punchline. Different humor for different folks I guess.
posted by zengargoyle at 10:21 AM on June 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by zengargoyle at 10:21 AM on June 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
I started watching The Daily Show in 2000, when we first got Comedy Central. I was in 8th grade when 9/11 happened, and I still watch Jon's monologue every year. He and Colbert made me aware of issues that I, a kid in junior high, wouldn't even have thought about otherwise. I mean, I wasn't the target audience, but it definitely made me question pretty much everything I saw on CNN, Fox News, etc. I wish he'd saved democracy, sure, but in a lot of ways he and Colbert were the ones asking tough questions by cushioning it in humor.
(Also the Crossfire moment was A Big Thing, but either someone at Mefi or maybe Jon himself said that all it boiled down to was a game of musical chairs, except in the end there were enough chairs for everyone and nothing changed at all. Other than the bowties.)
posted by Torosaurus at 6:24 PM on June 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
(Also the Crossfire moment was A Big Thing, but either someone at Mefi or maybe Jon himself said that all it boiled down to was a game of musical chairs, except in the end there were enough chairs for everyone and nothing changed at all. Other than the bowties.)
posted by Torosaurus at 6:24 PM on June 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
Eating hot sauce on YouTube
The fact that Evans keeps getting such praise is part of the problem. Yeah, he's great compared to everyone else interviewing these days, but that is an extremely low bar. He deep dives into the careers of celebrities -- essentially a cross between Graham Norton and Nardwaur, and I love Graham Norton and Nardwaur (rip) -- but he doesn't ask them pointed, probing questions and doesn't feature experts on, well, anything.
No one watches Hot Wings to learn anything of importance or expand their horizons. It's what you put on when you're taking a lunch break or don't have to pay attention. Guests go on there to pimp their shows and that's fine, but lets not delude ourselves into thinking it's anything but the YouTube equivalent of Entertainment Tonight: Press Releases and marketing as entertainment.
posted by dobbs at 7:42 PM on June 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
The fact that Evans keeps getting such praise is part of the problem. Yeah, he's great compared to everyone else interviewing these days, but that is an extremely low bar. He deep dives into the careers of celebrities -- essentially a cross between Graham Norton and Nardwaur, and I love Graham Norton and Nardwaur (rip) -- but he doesn't ask them pointed, probing questions and doesn't feature experts on, well, anything.
No one watches Hot Wings to learn anything of importance or expand their horizons. It's what you put on when you're taking a lunch break or don't have to pay attention. Guests go on there to pimp their shows and that's fine, but lets not delude ourselves into thinking it's anything but the YouTube equivalent of Entertainment Tonight: Press Releases and marketing as entertainment.
posted by dobbs at 7:42 PM on June 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
This piece in the Atlantic, which profiles Jon and reviews his new show, goes well with these clips and speaks to some of the comments here regarding his impact on politics over time.
posted by Aizkolari at 7:42 AM on June 27, 2022
posted by Aizkolari at 7:42 AM on June 27, 2022
Nardwaur (rip)
do you know something the rest of us don't? Last time I looked, he was doing fine.
posted by philip-random at 10:24 AM on June 27, 2022
do you know something the rest of us don't? Last time I looked, he was doing fine.
posted by philip-random at 10:24 AM on June 27, 2022
is it possible a non-zero percentage of people posting here spent too much time watching Jon Stewart and critiquing his acumen for satire, and not enough time working to get people on school boards, Supreme Courts, etc?
heal thyself
posted by elkevelvet at 3:25 PM on June 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
heal thyself
posted by elkevelvet at 3:25 PM on June 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
do you know something the rest of us don't? Last time I looked, he was doing fine.
Apologies. I thought he died a few years ago but it appears he'd suffered a stroke but recovered.
posted by dobbs at 4:22 PM on June 27, 2022 [1 favorite]
Apologies. I thought he died a few years ago but it appears he'd suffered a stroke but recovered.
posted by dobbs at 4:22 PM on June 27, 2022 [1 favorite]
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I can't bear to watch and laugh.
posted by Ickster at 4:25 PM on June 24, 2022 [8 favorites]