Chinese and Australian governments, protests, and digital privacy
July 26, 2022 9:06 AM Subscribe
Bail conditions for climate change activists linked with Blockade Australia have clauses "that would prohibit the use of encrypted communication apps such as WhatsApp and Signal. [New South Wales] police also imposed conditions forcing the activists to hand over any communications device to police and provide passcodes upon request." Elsewhere, "A protest planned by hundreds of bank depositors in central China seeking access to their frozen funds has been thwarted because the authorities have turned their health code apps red", which left them unable to travel. (Previously.)
Electronic Frontiers Australia points out (off-Twitter mirror) that the prohibition on "Possessing or having access to an encrypted communication device and/or possessing an encrypted application/media application" would essentially "prohibit the use of essentially all modern communications technology".
Electronic Frontiers Australia points out (off-Twitter mirror) that the prohibition on "Possessing or having access to an encrypted communication device and/or possessing an encrypted application/media application" would essentially "prohibit the use of essentially all modern communications technology".
Relatedly: as I mentioned in a previous thread, COVID notification/tracking/contract tracing info in Australia was misused by law enforcement in ways they'd promised Australians they wouldn't, risking the public's trust and willingness to provide accurate data when visiting public places. "‘Breach of trust’: Police using QR check-in data to solve crimes", Sydney Morning Herald, September 6, 2021:
posted by brainwane at 9:10 AM on July 26, 2022 [10 favorites]
authorities have turned their health code apps red
Using health codes for stuff like this seems like a public-health disaster in the long run.
posted by straight at 10:48 AM on July 26, 2022 [16 favorites]
Using health codes for stuff like this seems like a public-health disaster in the long run.
posted by straight at 10:48 AM on July 26, 2022 [16 favorites]
Australia's legal settlement comes from the administrative requirements of a set of penal colonies and military outposts, and as such, Australians have no formally enshrined rights, other than that to not have a state religion imposed on them.
posted by acb at 11:04 AM on July 26, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by acb at 11:04 AM on July 26, 2022 [4 favorites]
meanwhile all the world's governments use pegasus and the ubiquity of the personal cell phone to keep tabs on everyone, including each other.
posted by fregoli at 12:34 PM on July 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by fregoli at 12:34 PM on July 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
No kidding straight, I knew a public health doctor who was working with gangs re drugs and communicable diseases, one day realised he was being tailed by drug squad - the 'right' and cops never grasp the bigger picture.
I've read a bit about safe comms. in adversarial environments, way things are going we'll have to get good at that.
posted by unearthed at 1:40 PM on July 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
I've read a bit about safe comms. in adversarial environments, way things are going we'll have to get good at that.
posted by unearthed at 1:40 PM on July 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
The only long-term fix as far as I can see is going to require a shift in the prevailing social climate toward making authoritarians completely unelectable.
As things stand right now in this country, imposing impossible and arbitrary restrictions on people widely seen as ratbag lefties absolutely passes the pub test.
It further seems to me that Blockade Australia's model of how power works is naive. Attempting to slow an economic juggernaut by busting off a gear tooth here or there is just not going to work until the countless millions who devote their entire lives to shoving it from behind can be persuaded to push a lot less hard.
Meanwhile, though, I am completely in favour of Blockade Australia's legal and publicity people raising as much of a stink about this ludicrous decision as possible. There is already a strong anti-authoritarian streak in the national culture here; let's not waste this opportunity to broaden it. The focus needs to be kept on the absolute boneheadedness of the bail conditions because it's a dead cert that the Murdoch Death Star will be doing everything it can to steer it toward the "violence" of those on whom they've been imposed.
posted by flabdablet at 9:51 PM on July 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
As things stand right now in this country, imposing impossible and arbitrary restrictions on people widely seen as ratbag lefties absolutely passes the pub test.
It further seems to me that Blockade Australia's model of how power works is naive. Attempting to slow an economic juggernaut by busting off a gear tooth here or there is just not going to work until the countless millions who devote their entire lives to shoving it from behind can be persuaded to push a lot less hard.
Meanwhile, though, I am completely in favour of Blockade Australia's legal and publicity people raising as much of a stink about this ludicrous decision as possible. There is already a strong anti-authoritarian streak in the national culture here; let's not waste this opportunity to broaden it. The focus needs to be kept on the absolute boneheadedness of the bail conditions because it's a dead cert that the Murdoch Death Star will be doing everything it can to steer it toward the "violence" of those on whom they've been imposed.
posted by flabdablet at 9:51 PM on July 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
Australia's legal settlement comes from the administrative requirements of a set of penal colonies and military outposts, and as such, Australians have no formally enshrined rights, other than that to not have a state religion imposed on them.
We all descended from convicts! Didn't expect that from metafilter.
This is naive. The last penal colony closed in 1869. Victoria and South Australia didn't have them, and NSW and QLD had 3 and 2. The majority of them were in Tasmania. In 1901 Australians formed their own federal government and legislature. This is all history textbook stuff, it's not related to any of this in 2022, except to say we're nothing like we were 150 years ago.
Hey, we don't even have the death penalty anymore. Isn't it funny how some countries can move on from the barbarism of the past?
posted by adept256 at 11:39 PM on July 26, 2022 [4 favorites]
We all descended from convicts! Didn't expect that from metafilter.
This is naive. The last penal colony closed in 1869. Victoria and South Australia didn't have them, and NSW and QLD had 3 and 2. The majority of them were in Tasmania. In 1901 Australians formed their own federal government and legislature. This is all history textbook stuff, it's not related to any of this in 2022, except to say we're nothing like we were 150 years ago.
Hey, we don't even have the death penalty anymore. Isn't it funny how some countries can move on from the barbarism of the past?
posted by adept256 at 11:39 PM on July 26, 2022 [4 favorites]
Cultural transmission casts a long shadow. We've seen examples such as the US South having a murder rate double that of the north due to the culture of honor brought over by a wave of immigration from Scotch-Irish cattle-ranching communities centuries ago, or corruption levels in towns in Romania depending on whether they were part of the Austro-Hungarian or Ottoman Empire before WW1, it is plausible that the authoritarian, undemocratic orders of the militarised outposts of Empire that Australia was constituted from still emerge in it, except where explicitly repudiated (such as capital punishment).
posted by acb at 1:18 AM on July 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by acb at 1:18 AM on July 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
adept256 is right - literally nobody here in Australia identifies much with the notional convict past of the country.
It just isn't part of the collective subconsciousness anymore, in a day to day sense. American and British people are really the only people who talk about it.
posted by chmmr at 2:43 AM on July 27, 2022 [1 favorite]
It just isn't part of the collective subconsciousness anymore, in a day to day sense. American and British people are really the only people who talk about it.
posted by chmmr at 2:43 AM on July 27, 2022 [1 favorite]
What bothered me was the assertion we live under some evolution of prison law. It's true that we don't have a bill of rights. That may even change soon, god save the Queen. Rather we inherited the common law of Britain, a body of law dating back to the Magna Carta, which defines our rights with centuries of precedence. We do have rights! I would assert this offers us a measure of flexibility, for good or ill, not enjoyed by countries that worship a bill of rights beyond reason as unchangeable.
As a second generation Swedish-Australian, shall we talk about vikings?
posted by adept256 at 2:57 AM on July 27, 2022 [1 favorite]
As a second generation Swedish-Australian, shall we talk about vikings?
posted by adept256 at 2:57 AM on July 27, 2022 [1 favorite]
Britain is bound by the European Convention of Human Rights; Australia is not. And the oversized powers that the police and other authorities in Australia enjoy didn't come from nowhere; Australia wasn't a blank slate in 1901, ready for the drafting of a classical-English-Liberal utopia, but inherited the institutions of its constituent imperial outposts, with tweaks, not to mention the values and attitudes that its administrators and lawmakers were educated in through its institutions.
posted by acb at 3:04 AM on July 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by acb at 3:04 AM on July 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
@acb Australia certainly wasn't a blank slate in 1901, it was inhabited by the oldest continuous culture in the world.
We're making steps to recognise that now and move forward. The new government made up of centre-left politicians and green/independents seems to be making a good start. First days though.
posted by chmmr at 3:40 AM on July 27, 2022 [3 favorites]
We're making steps to recognise that now and move forward. The new government made up of centre-left politicians and green/independents seems to be making a good start. First days though.
posted by chmmr at 3:40 AM on July 27, 2022 [3 favorites]
Sure, we don't have a bill of rights, but what good has that done to countries that do have one? It's just another outdated instrument used by those with real power (ie not those that are elected to power, but those who buy them) to reinforce their personal views and protect their billions. Mostly our rights have been protected because anyone likely to overstep the mark was never going to get elected and a bill of rights wasn't needed. I'm not sure that's still the case and the shifting of the Overton Window here over the past decade or so means that maybe now is the time we got one in place. Unfortunately, the recent political climate means a bill of rights drafted today would be very different to one drafted 20 years ago. Not in a good way.
Maybe I've just lost the argument with myself over whether we need a bill of rights.
These ridiculous and completely unenforceable bail conditions are a potentially useful tool to bring light on the misuse of power, but who's going to lead the charge on that? It's a shame The Greens have got so far into bed with Labor that they seem afraid to stand up for what they stand for.
posted by dg at 3:13 AM on July 28, 2022
Maybe I've just lost the argument with myself over whether we need a bill of rights.
These ridiculous and completely unenforceable bail conditions are a potentially useful tool to bring light on the misuse of power, but who's going to lead the charge on that? It's a shame The Greens have got so far into bed with Labor that they seem afraid to stand up for what they stand for.
posted by dg at 3:13 AM on July 28, 2022
Not sure where that viewpoint is coming from. Every time I've seen a Green speak on Blockade Australia their focus has been on raising strong objections to the wildly disproportionate police response.
More from The Saturday Paper.
NSW Labor is absolutely on the wrong side of this, as expected; Shit Lite is quite Shit and not particularly Lite in NSW.
posted by flabdablet at 4:12 AM on July 28, 2022
More from The Saturday Paper.
NSW Labor is absolutely on the wrong side of this, as expected; Shit Lite is quite Shit and not particularly Lite in NSW.
posted by flabdablet at 4:12 AM on July 28, 2022
Completely unenforceable? The police can conduct snap inspections of the activists' phones, and if they find encrypted messaging software, or evidence of involvement with other activists, straight to jail. Seems pretty enforceable to me.
posted by acb at 4:36 AM on July 28, 2022
posted by acb at 4:36 AM on July 28, 2022
The point is that all of the actual voice phone calling support built into any phone's OS, let alone any web browser and/or email client installed on it, is encrypted messaging software. That makes mere possession of a phone, let alone using one to talk to lawyers, a breach of the bail conditions. That's unconscionable.
posted by flabdablet at 5:41 AM on July 28, 2022
posted by flabdablet at 5:41 AM on July 28, 2022
Not sure where that viewpoint is coming from.
Likely just my boundless cynicism and distrust of every single politician rather than any actual facts, to be honest. I should avoid doing that.
The bail conditions are unenforceable in any practical way - as flabdablet points out, they are unconscionable and would not survive any kind of appeal. More to the point, though, is that the police are not likely to be bothered or have the time to run around doing spot-checks to see if people are possessing a prohibited device (a phone) unless they stick their head above the parapet by participating in further protests or similar activities.
posted by dg at 10:31 PM on July 28, 2022
Likely just my boundless cynicism and distrust of every single politician rather than any actual facts, to be honest. I should avoid doing that.
The bail conditions are unenforceable in any practical way - as flabdablet points out, they are unconscionable and would not survive any kind of appeal. More to the point, though, is that the police are not likely to be bothered or have the time to run around doing spot-checks to see if people are possessing a prohibited device (a phone) unless they stick their head above the parapet by participating in further protests or similar activities.
posted by dg at 10:31 PM on July 28, 2022
they are unconscionable and would not survive any kind of appeal
On what grounds? Australia does not have any statutory human rights protections, other than the established-religion one. By this token, there is a raft of police powers and mass-surveillance laws that would have been tossed out by the courts.
posted by acb at 1:40 AM on July 29, 2022
On what grounds? Australia does not have any statutory human rights protections, other than the established-religion one. By this token, there is a raft of police powers and mass-surveillance laws that would have been tossed out by the courts.
posted by acb at 1:40 AM on July 29, 2022
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