Life under fascism... in space
December 3, 2022 12:41 PM Subscribe
Andor: Star Wars for Grownups "But Andor is something new and astonishing: a Star Wars series written and filmed entirely for discerning grown-ups. It’s accurate but faint praise to call this the smartest Star Wars ever made; it’s one of the smartest shows anyone has made in recent years, and can reasonably be mentioned in the same breath as, say, The Wire. It’s better than this bloated and wildly uneven franchise deserves; that it was greenlit at all suggests, against all odds, that even endlessly recycled blockbuster intellectual properties have some room for artistry." (n.b. spoilers)
Max Read: What made 'Andor' so good?
Per episode discussions on Fanfare
Max Read: What made 'Andor' so good?
Then the series started, and I kept seeing people whose opinions I respected saying, as you put it, that Andor was "absolutely worth watching even if the idea of more Star Wars content in your life is absolutely repulsive." That it was shockingly good, in a way unlike anything else in the entire content-galaxy. We started watching and...it was. It was harrowingly good. It was completely faithful to the idea of Star Wars while ruthlessly asserting its own tone and style and stakes and values. After the incestuous and hopelessly narrow space-wizard antics of the Skywalker/Palpatine family had collapsed the Main Sequence in on itself into a neutron star of sententiousness and ridiculousness, here was a sprawling 10-plus hours of Star Wars content in which not one person ever utters the words "The Force."Bonus: Pauline Kael's original 1977 review of Star Wars
How? What? Where did this new hope come from?
Per episode discussions on Fanfare
In a franchise with deus ex machinas and clouds of gassy fan service around every corner, for Andor to have me sweating "ugh, what the hell is Cassian going to do!?" is awesome. I love this show.
posted by Stonestock Relentless at 1:40 PM on December 3, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by Stonestock Relentless at 1:40 PM on December 3, 2022 [7 favorites]
Wasn't expecting the Mike Duncan shout-out in the first article!
I'm pretty burned out on Star Wars in general, but these reviews have convinced me Andor is worth giving a shot. Thanks!
posted by biogeo at 1:48 PM on December 3, 2022 [6 favorites]
I'm pretty burned out on Star Wars in general, but these reviews have convinced me Andor is worth giving a shot. Thanks!
posted by biogeo at 1:48 PM on December 3, 2022 [6 favorites]
It's already been announced it's a two season series with the finale leading directly into Rogue One.
They did this. It's called Rogue One and you can watch it at any time.
Someone's got a case of the Dedras!
(great show. gutted we won't get the five seasons that were apparently on the table)
posted by ominous_paws at 1:50 PM on December 3, 2022 [1 favorite]
They did this. It's called Rogue One and you can watch it at any time.
Someone's got a case of the Dedras!
(great show. gutted we won't get the five seasons that were apparently on the table)
posted by ominous_paws at 1:50 PM on December 3, 2022 [1 favorite]
Hippybear, I'm confused by your corrections. I'm excited for season two, and I hope the many novel narrative threads of the series get the treatment they deserve, beyond retroactively culminating in Rogue One. Why the scorn?
posted by BlackLeotardFront at 2:14 PM on December 3, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by BlackLeotardFront at 2:14 PM on December 3, 2022 [3 favorites]
The joy in my heart as I opened MeFi while listening to an episode of A More Civilized Age discussing Andor...! It's been what, ten days since the season 1 finale? And I have not been able to stop thinking about it. It's so unbelievably good If video essays are your thing, I loved Andor: Anti-Fascist Art. And while I don't believe anyone not already interested in watching will sit through a 20 minute video on why they should, I agree with everything in this (mostly) spoiler free pitch about it!
posted by harujion at 2:27 PM on December 3, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by harujion at 2:27 PM on December 3, 2022 [6 favorites]
Its a huge course correction from the 'for the kids' direction Lucas took with Return of the Jedi. The star wars universe feels big again, not clinging to the same old locations and characters.
If the Jedi do actually return I'd much prefer something different from the culty monk stuff in the prequels. Anti-fascist force users for the people!
posted by Ansible at 2:33 PM on December 3, 2022 [4 favorites]
If the Jedi do actually return I'd much prefer something different from the culty monk stuff in the prequels. Anti-fascist force users for the people!
posted by Ansible at 2:33 PM on December 3, 2022 [4 favorites]
I am still after my David Simon style municipal and local-cultural drama about the corruption and union politics in Cloud City, as Lando Calrissian fights a losing battle to be independent of the Empire. Obviously the soundtrack would be critical
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 2:40 PM on December 3, 2022 [25 favorites]
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 2:40 PM on December 3, 2022 [25 favorites]
i guess i should give it another go. the first 2 eps just left me cold. but i am going through a difficult time in life, and that may have limited my ability to watch something that felt like a downer at every turn.
posted by lapolla at 2:50 PM on December 3, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by lapolla at 2:50 PM on December 3, 2022 [4 favorites]
2 eps is absolutely where i could see people dropping off; I'm sure they released the first three at once for this reason. It kicks off in three and never looks back.
So excited to catch up with Cyril. Even the horrible worms in the show were compelling.
posted by ominous_paws at 2:56 PM on December 3, 2022 [5 favorites]
So excited to catch up with Cyril. Even the horrible worms in the show were compelling.
posted by ominous_paws at 2:56 PM on December 3, 2022 [5 favorites]
*Syril. Forgot the star wars name single letter change.
posted by ominous_paws at 2:57 PM on December 3, 2022
posted by ominous_paws at 2:57 PM on December 3, 2022
I appreciate that this is an article from The New Republic (Canon/Legends).
posted by Strange Interlude at 3:38 PM on December 3, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Strange Interlude at 3:38 PM on December 3, 2022 [1 favorite]
I do love that D+ hired the Gilroys to make a prequel to Rogue One and they delivered a combination of Army of Shadows and The Battle of Algiers set in the Star Wars universe.
posted by octothorpe at 3:50 PM on December 3, 2022 [12 favorites]
posted by octothorpe at 3:50 PM on December 3, 2022 [12 favorites]
Really not a fan of Star Wars and after the 3rd or 4th episode I began to enjoy this. It ended up being quite good.
posted by oneirodynia at 3:51 PM on December 3, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by oneirodynia at 3:51 PM on December 3, 2022 [4 favorites]
(spoliers kind of) I loved the procession music in the final so much. They made me think of Welsh miners or some such, having a community rally like that. I hope to see more series like this.
We usually have to suspend disbelief watching a SW show, like how could all stormtroopers be such bad shots, etc. But what got me this time was when Cassian gets picked up at the beach. We know facial recognition and tracking is a thing now, and you can’t convince me that everyone wasn’t chipped like a pet, able to be scanned.
Anyway give us moar, Disney. Like was said above, give us the Office or Abbot Elementary or the Wire where it is happening in the SW uni and some cheeky rebellious stuff happens once in a while.
posted by drowsy at 4:05 PM on December 3, 2022 [5 favorites]
We usually have to suspend disbelief watching a SW show, like how could all stormtroopers be such bad shots, etc. But what got me this time was when Cassian gets picked up at the beach. We know facial recognition and tracking is a thing now, and you can’t convince me that everyone wasn’t chipped like a pet, able to be scanned.
Anyway give us moar, Disney. Like was said above, give us the Office or Abbot Elementary or the Wire where it is happening in the SW uni and some cheeky rebellious stuff happens once in a while.
posted by drowsy at 4:05 PM on December 3, 2022 [5 favorites]
Loved Andor, am happy that people who aren't normally into the franchise are into it... but am definitely not digging the "Star Wars for grown-ups" framing. Some of it is recognizing that the franchise has had some very grown-up elements in it all along; a lot of the original trilogy is about a young man who a) finds out the truth about his father and b) is desperately trying not to become like him. That's not smashing-your-action-figures together stuff. I'm also appreciating The Clone Wars and Rebels very much, in particular because their length allows for a more complex and realistic storyline; a great deal of Rebels plots involves their simply trying to set up and maintain supply chains, and I think that it's OK if they occasionally mix in a little space wizardry with that. (I'm also very much hoping that Ahsoka, which features a couple of characters from Rebels in addition to the title one, maintains that groundedness in addition to the anticipated space wizardry.) Andor is the best of the series so far, and I'm pre-emptively sad that there's only going to be one more season, but I think that the way to go forward is to ask the franchise holders to make more of the existing series more like this.
posted by Halloween Jack at 4:08 PM on December 3, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by Halloween Jack at 4:08 PM on December 3, 2022 [7 favorites]
Loved Andor, am happy that people who aren't normally into the franchise are into it... but am definitely not digging the "Star Wars for grown-ups" framing
This. The franchise, while capable of being enjoyed by kids on one or more levels, can also be enjoyed by people older than that for the themes it explores. This is the case with a lot of sci fi, and fantasy, too. The type of "this is X but for grown ups" framing I always find a bit snooty and defensive; like, it's ok to be an adult and enjoy sci fi and fantasy, and find things in it that are relevant to your life and the world around you. You dont need to single out something you enjoyed as the "grown up" exception to the whole.
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 5:07 PM on December 3, 2022 [4 favorites]
This. The franchise, while capable of being enjoyed by kids on one or more levels, can also be enjoyed by people older than that for the themes it explores. This is the case with a lot of sci fi, and fantasy, too. The type of "this is X but for grown ups" framing I always find a bit snooty and defensive; like, it's ok to be an adult and enjoy sci fi and fantasy, and find things in it that are relevant to your life and the world around you. You dont need to single out something you enjoyed as the "grown up" exception to the whole.
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 5:07 PM on December 3, 2022 [4 favorites]
There's a world of difference between say Grizzly Man and Care Bears. Some adults enjoy care bears, but you can't deny there's a different audience in mind. That's the same feeling I get when watching the ewoks in Return of the Jedi - maybe this movie wasn't made for me. Ditto with the recent Boba Fett series - cartoonish and shallow.
Childrens literature that is high quality can be enjoyed by folks of all ages. But then there's the other stuff.
posted by Ansible at 5:37 PM on December 3, 2022 [13 favorites]
Childrens literature that is high quality can be enjoyed by folks of all ages. But then there's the other stuff.
posted by Ansible at 5:37 PM on December 3, 2022 [13 favorites]
On Dana Gould's podcast, film critic Katharine Coldiron said Andor was "as good as The Wire," and that was what convinced me to try it. I had been hesitant, because of the "do we really have to see every single character's backstory?" thing. After the first episode, though, I'm definitely interested.
posted by Mister Moofoo at 5:45 PM on December 3, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Mister Moofoo at 5:45 PM on December 3, 2022 [1 favorite]
We know facial recognition and tracking is a thing now, and you can’t convince me that everyone wasn’t chipped like a pet, able to be scanned.
*ahem*
"A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away...."
posted by cooker girl at 6:14 PM on December 3, 2022 [4 favorites]
*ahem*
"A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away...."
posted by cooker girl at 6:14 PM on December 3, 2022 [4 favorites]
We know facial recognition and tracking is a thing now, and you can’t convince me that everyone wasn’t chipped like a pet, able to be scanned.
The technology we have available to us now is so far beyond what was even conceived of by Lucas in 1977, so shows set in that same time period are stuck with analog systems for the most part. What computers they have mostly appear to be embedded in mobile AIs, and (most importantly) are not networked.
I think it's fascinating, frankly.
posted by suelac at 6:28 PM on December 3, 2022 [14 favorites]
The technology we have available to us now is so far beyond what was even conceived of by Lucas in 1977, so shows set in that same time period are stuck with analog systems for the most part. What computers they have mostly appear to be embedded in mobile AIs, and (most importantly) are not networked.
I think it's fascinating, frankly.
posted by suelac at 6:28 PM on December 3, 2022 [14 favorites]
Its a huge course correction from the 'for the kids' direction Lucas took with Return of the Jedi. The star wars universe feels big again, not clinging to the same old locations and characters.
I maintain that one of the best things Disney could do is have a teaser for a new movie series that's just the old 20th Century Fox music, the old Lucasfilm Limited logo, and then
"A long time from now in a galaxy far, far away"
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 6:39 PM on December 3, 2022 [3 favorites]
I maintain that one of the best things Disney could do is have a teaser for a new movie series that's just the old 20th Century Fox music, the old Lucasfilm Limited logo, and then
"A long time from now in a galaxy far, far away"
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 6:39 PM on December 3, 2022 [3 favorites]
That's the same feeling I get when watching the ewoks in Return of the Jedi - maybe this movie wasn't made for me. Ditto with the recent Boba Fett series - cartoonish and shallow.
There's a couple of sentences in the article that capture this well: "Those in search of video game cutscenes, fan service, and Easter eggs already have many hours of recent Star Wars properties to select from; Andor instead offers intelligent dialogue, political and moral complexity, and actors channeling believable human behavior on physical sets."
While recognizing that many, many adults love all of the various Star Wars franchise pieces, this review makes this sound like the first Star Wars item I might enjoy as an adult. I saw all the original movies in the theater as a kid when they came out and loved them, but everything Ive seen since then has still seemed like something I would have loved as a kid or tween.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:53 PM on December 3, 2022 [7 favorites]
There's a couple of sentences in the article that capture this well: "Those in search of video game cutscenes, fan service, and Easter eggs already have many hours of recent Star Wars properties to select from; Andor instead offers intelligent dialogue, political and moral complexity, and actors channeling believable human behavior on physical sets."
While recognizing that many, many adults love all of the various Star Wars franchise pieces, this review makes this sound like the first Star Wars item I might enjoy as an adult. I saw all the original movies in the theater as a kid when they came out and loved them, but everything Ive seen since then has still seemed like something I would have loved as a kid or tween.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:53 PM on December 3, 2022 [7 favorites]
> If they're smart they'll even shell out for a feature-length finale and put it in theaters.
They did this. It's called Rogue One and you can watch it at any time.
Rogue One is not a fitting finale for Andor, unfortunately.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 8:28 PM on December 3, 2022 [6 favorites]
They did this. It's called Rogue One and you can watch it at any time.
Rogue One is not a fitting finale for Andor, unfortunately.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 8:28 PM on December 3, 2022 [6 favorites]
can reasonably be mentioned in the same breath as, say, The Wire.
OK, I guess I'm missing something. I just finished re-watching The Wire.
Andor, for me, was entertaining, and better than the other Star Wars shows. But, it generally came across as a collection of recycled tropes and characterizations with a bit of a dutiful tone. The great actors do the best they can with the material, but I feel like we have seen all of this before with much finer writing and directing. We know Tony Gilroy is capable of much more powerful and sophisticated story telling--remember Tilda Swinton in Michael Clayton?
The Wire is just on a completely different level. The first episode alone, in a single compact hour, deftly dissects the whole immensely messy problem of failing institutions built on misguided and corrupted incentives, filled with people just muddling through. It does all of that, while introducing the key characters, and holding you rapt on the unfolding story.
The wire also has a stream of characters that appear sui generis, not types, tropes, or echoes. Snoop, Omar, prop Joe, etc. Even the presumably more conventional characters are peculiar and finely drawn in surprising ways. Andor, to me, felt like it is populated with check list of familiar, slightly cardboard cutout types.
And last, but not least, The Wire, especially early on, invested in a number of, formal experiments where the creators explicitly toyed with the medium. The most famous of these is the 5 minute investigation scene where the only dialog is built on the word 'fuck' (https://www.vulture.com/2018/02/the-wire-oral-history-fuck-scene.html).
Andor just doesn't have anything approaching the layered density of theme, story and character of The Wire.
So, props to Andor, but I don't get the attempt to puff it up into something more than it is.
posted by cron at 8:53 PM on December 3, 2022 [18 favorites]
OK, I guess I'm missing something. I just finished re-watching The Wire.
Andor, for me, was entertaining, and better than the other Star Wars shows. But, it generally came across as a collection of recycled tropes and characterizations with a bit of a dutiful tone. The great actors do the best they can with the material, but I feel like we have seen all of this before with much finer writing and directing. We know Tony Gilroy is capable of much more powerful and sophisticated story telling--remember Tilda Swinton in Michael Clayton?
The Wire is just on a completely different level. The first episode alone, in a single compact hour, deftly dissects the whole immensely messy problem of failing institutions built on misguided and corrupted incentives, filled with people just muddling through. It does all of that, while introducing the key characters, and holding you rapt on the unfolding story.
The wire also has a stream of characters that appear sui generis, not types, tropes, or echoes. Snoop, Omar, prop Joe, etc. Even the presumably more conventional characters are peculiar and finely drawn in surprising ways. Andor, to me, felt like it is populated with check list of familiar, slightly cardboard cutout types.
And last, but not least, The Wire, especially early on, invested in a number of, formal experiments where the creators explicitly toyed with the medium. The most famous of these is the 5 minute investigation scene where the only dialog is built on the word 'fuck' (https://www.vulture.com/2018/02/the-wire-oral-history-fuck-scene.html).
Andor just doesn't have anything approaching the layered density of theme, story and character of The Wire.
So, props to Andor, but I don't get the attempt to puff it up into something more than it is.
posted by cron at 8:53 PM on December 3, 2022 [18 favorites]
Makes me wonder about how the two sides will inevitably come into some sort of conflict. Revolutionaries forming the base and representatives of the old establishment forming the leadership. Both now, and after they win. Is it going to be a revolution or a counter-revolution?
...
Anyways, this show brought all of this to mind for me. For all the WWII parallels found in Star Wars, this made me think of various national resistance groups in occupied territories. Some of them wanted to return to the republic or monarchy their country was before the war. Some were communists or anarchists who wanted to use the resistance as a way to change everything. A conflict that not only complicated the resistance during the war, but also continued after liberation.
posted by Teegeeack AV Club Secretary
It kind of reminded me of Homage to Catalonia by Orwell.
posted by oldnumberseven at 9:17 PM on December 3, 2022 [3 favorites]
...
Anyways, this show brought all of this to mind for me. For all the WWII parallels found in Star Wars, this made me think of various national resistance groups in occupied territories. Some of them wanted to return to the republic or monarchy their country was before the war. Some were communists or anarchists who wanted to use the resistance as a way to change everything. A conflict that not only complicated the resistance during the war, but also continued after liberation.
posted by Teegeeack AV Club Secretary
It kind of reminded me of Homage to Catalonia by Orwell.
posted by oldnumberseven at 9:17 PM on December 3, 2022 [3 favorites]
I know the Doylist explanation for the tech we see in Star Wars, and people often make fun of certain absences (e.g. the lack of networking) -- but I really like the Watsonian explanation that the Star Wars universe took an alternate path of technological development where a Butlerian Jihad-esque incident took networking off the table very early on and permanently kept it off.
Ubiquitous wireless communication between devices? Centralised databases? Are you mad?! Think of the security implications! Everything is air-gapped; if you want to move data from point A to point B you need to carry it there on a physical dongle, or go to a lot of trouble to make a secure point-to-point transmission, because of course you do. That's just how we do things.
(But we also don't build railings on anything, because occupational health and safety is for sissies.)
posted by confluency at 11:42 PM on December 3, 2022 [23 favorites]
Ubiquitous wireless communication between devices? Centralised databases? Are you mad?! Think of the security implications! Everything is air-gapped; if you want to move data from point A to point B you need to carry it there on a physical dongle, or go to a lot of trouble to make a secure point-to-point transmission, because of course you do. That's just how we do things.
(But we also don't build railings on anything, because occupational health and safety is for sissies.)
posted by confluency at 11:42 PM on December 3, 2022 [23 favorites]
There's a beautiful moment in Andor where you're wondering, Why don't they do this with droids? And then a character says, bitterly, "We're cheaper than droids..."
It's such an elegant and believable solution to so many nitpicks of the type, If they can use technology like this, why don't they use it like that? "It's cheaper this way."
It might not be obvious why it would be cheaper, but there's so many kinds of reasons that could be true, especially in the wonderfully junky Star Wars setting where people are stealing and re-using and cobbling together all kinds of tech from who-knows-where, I can easily accept that explanation and get on with the story.
posted by straight at 2:34 AM on December 4, 2022 [14 favorites]
It's such an elegant and believable solution to so many nitpicks of the type, If they can use technology like this, why don't they use it like that? "It's cheaper this way."
It might not be obvious why it would be cheaper, but there's so many kinds of reasons that could be true, especially in the wonderfully junky Star Wars setting where people are stealing and re-using and cobbling together all kinds of tech from who-knows-where, I can easily accept that explanation and get on with the story.
posted by straight at 2:34 AM on December 4, 2022 [14 favorites]
"We're cheaper than droids..."
It's a point that was made by ... I know Paul Mason says it, but it might have come from David Graeber: around the UK you'll find Hand Car Washes - you drive in and a bunch of guys clean your car by hand. You used to go to automated car washes. It's just cheaper to have a bunch of guys with shaky residency qualifications to do it by hand.
posted by Grangousier at 2:40 AM on December 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
It's a point that was made by ... I know Paul Mason says it, but it might have come from David Graeber: around the UK you'll find Hand Car Washes - you drive in and a bunch of guys clean your car by hand. You used to go to automated car washes. It's just cheaper to have a bunch of guys with shaky residency qualifications to do it by hand.
posted by Grangousier at 2:40 AM on December 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
I'm curious: is there a way to watch this show if the thought of having a Disney+ account makes you cringe?
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 4:19 AM on December 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 4:19 AM on December 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
Andor stands out for two reasons: 1) it's a well made show with good actors, but more importantly 2) its a show for adults who understand the SW universe and are willing to engage with the tropes of premium TV. So, no space wizards, people are motivated by unclear desires that are frequently revealed to be bad for the protagonist, lots of storylines, dark worldview, etc.
I would also point out that everything that Andor is doing was tried by the Han Solo movie, but done ineptly and almost unwatchable. Andor is working to the same plan: extend the franchise world, make it acceptable to adults (except this time it's working). I prefer the work that Lower Decks is doing as an extension of the ST franchise, because it acknowledges the flaws within the world of Star Trek. I don't think this would have been possible with SW, maybe because of it's origin as a series of films.
posted by The River Ivel at 4:35 AM on December 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
I would also point out that everything that Andor is doing was tried by the Han Solo movie, but done ineptly and almost unwatchable. Andor is working to the same plan: extend the franchise world, make it acceptable to adults (except this time it's working). I prefer the work that Lower Decks is doing as an extension of the ST franchise, because it acknowledges the flaws within the world of Star Trek. I don't think this would have been possible with SW, maybe because of it's origin as a series of films.
posted by The River Ivel at 4:35 AM on December 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
I can’t get behind the world building aspect of the prison sentencing thing though. The beings the Empire put into prison would mostly have families and friends who expected their sentences to end and for them to come home. Apparently the plan was for none of them to do so.
It’s hard to imagine a better way for Palpy to kickstart a widespread violent rebellion. If I think I could be sent to die in a labor camp for jaywalking at any time why not just walk down to the local stormtrooper garrison with a thermal detonator in my pocket and take a few of them with me?
posted by The Monster at the End of this Thread at 4:57 AM on December 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
It’s hard to imagine a better way for Palpy to kickstart a widespread violent rebellion. If I think I could be sent to die in a labor camp for jaywalking at any time why not just walk down to the local stormtrooper garrison with a thermal detonator in my pocket and take a few of them with me?
posted by The Monster at the End of this Thread at 4:57 AM on December 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
I dropped out after episode two. Just wasn’t holding my attention. Might have to give it another shot.
posted by jzb at 5:11 AM on December 4, 2022
posted by jzb at 5:11 AM on December 4, 2022
We gave up on this show as it seemed some of the worst Star Wars we've ever watched... I was trying to convince my partner to watch it because I heard it was good, and we watched the first one, which was just dull, and I said please give it one more go, and good lord if it was even possible the second one was even worse. Having burned the last of my credibility I'm reading this post searching for something to salvage it -
From the article - "intelligent dialogue, political and moral complexity, and actors channeling believable human behavior on physical sets." --- this was not particularly in evidence during the first two episodes, and even if it were, it's not enough to carry a story on its own.
Could anyone else give a shot at explaining why it's worth watching...
>>It's a point that was made by ... I know Paul Mason says it, but it might have come from David Graeber: around the UK you'll find Hand Car Washes - you drive in and a bunch of guys clean your car by hand. You used to go to automated car washes. It's just cheaper to have a bunch of guys with shaky residency qualifications to do it by hand.
I was just commenting that 30 years ago we had warehouse picking technology that would assign a pick order for the workers and they would get onto these cranes that fit exactly between narrow purpose built racking (up to 4 stories tall) that would move them from location to location to pick those orders. Nowadays, at our "newer" modern warehouses that are modelled after the best-in-class industry standards, we build 3 levels of racking and workers have to climb up and down stairs all day to pick orders, so the productivity per worker is half of what it used to be 30 years ago.
posted by xdvesper at 5:19 AM on December 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
From the article - "intelligent dialogue, political and moral complexity, and actors channeling believable human behavior on physical sets." --- this was not particularly in evidence during the first two episodes, and even if it were, it's not enough to carry a story on its own.
Could anyone else give a shot at explaining why it's worth watching...
>>It's a point that was made by ... I know Paul Mason says it, but it might have come from David Graeber: around the UK you'll find Hand Car Washes - you drive in and a bunch of guys clean your car by hand. You used to go to automated car washes. It's just cheaper to have a bunch of guys with shaky residency qualifications to do it by hand.
I was just commenting that 30 years ago we had warehouse picking technology that would assign a pick order for the workers and they would get onto these cranes that fit exactly between narrow purpose built racking (up to 4 stories tall) that would move them from location to location to pick those orders. Nowadays, at our "newer" modern warehouses that are modelled after the best-in-class industry standards, we build 3 levels of racking and workers have to climb up and down stairs all day to pick orders, so the productivity per worker is half of what it used to be 30 years ago.
posted by xdvesper at 5:19 AM on December 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
Monster - it’s core SW premise that the Empire was young, improvisational and run at most levels by dumb bullies, apathetic bureaucrats and unmotivated draftees. “Fascists are stupid” is how your ragtag bands blow up two Death Stars.
Agree the first two episodes were slow. I put on my queue for a long flight until episode 5 or 6 made the critical and fam buzz hard to ignore.
posted by MattD at 5:24 AM on December 4, 2022 [4 favorites]
Agree the first two episodes were slow. I put on my queue for a long flight until episode 5 or 6 made the critical and fam buzz hard to ignore.
posted by MattD at 5:24 AM on December 4, 2022 [4 favorites]
I'd probably say that Andor was the best TV series I've seen this year although Severance and Station 11 are pretty high on that list too.
posted by octothorpe at 5:57 AM on December 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by octothorpe at 5:57 AM on December 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
As somebody who loves spy stuff, I was hooked from halfway through episode one, but it took Mr Machine until the climax of episode 3 to like it, the end of episode 6 to really like it, and then by the end of episode 10, he could not stop talking about it and even though we watched the season finale the day it came out, he still talks about it weeks later.
So based on that pattern, I think that if what hooks you into tv series is big thrilling action set pieces, then I think the end of episode 3 is probably pretty important. The first two episodes are setup and laying groundwork in order to make episode 3 hit. It’s about showing what Andor wants to do, about building trust, and demonstrating that your faith will be rewarded. The show is explaining that if the first episodes were slow, this is why they did it that way, so that they could do what happens in the last half of that episode.
Although I’ve enjoyed Star Wars to the point of reading spin-off novels for 20 years, Andor is the first piece of media I’ve seen in that universe that so clearly intends to be more than just space storytimes. Many of the spin-off things have, for me, had the feel of people picking up well-loved toys and re-enacting stories they wanted to see with those toys, within the existing framework. But Andor, to me, is not about that. It’s storytelling that engages by questioning the underlying premises of what came before. Why are planets described by their own environments and resources, and not the people that live there? Why are the stormtroopers actually so bad at their jobs? Who would sign up to help the empire if it’s so obviously evil/going to get you dead? If the empire was so overwhelming, how did the rebels win?
And to me, that’s where the parallel to the Wire is clearest — the same way that the Wire radically reshaped the kind of stories that could be told and should be told about cops and robbers drama, questioning why the cops and robbers were out there, who the robbers were in equal measure to the cops, and so on, Andor is reshaping expectations about the stories that can and should be told in a franchised show about space rebels pewpew prevailing against space empire. It’s one level of abstraction out, because the Wire is bluntly about the real life social issues they’re commenting on and Andor is one step removed and and speaking in metaphor, but Andor is presenting compelling answers about why people further fascist ends, the mechanisms empires exert control, and also the flip side of that.
When was the last time you saw something on big budget corporate TV where a teen protestor threw a homemade pipe bomb at colonizers and was shown as being in the right???????
posted by joyceanmachine at 6:04 AM on December 4, 2022 [25 favorites]
So based on that pattern, I think that if what hooks you into tv series is big thrilling action set pieces, then I think the end of episode 3 is probably pretty important. The first two episodes are setup and laying groundwork in order to make episode 3 hit. It’s about showing what Andor wants to do, about building trust, and demonstrating that your faith will be rewarded. The show is explaining that if the first episodes were slow, this is why they did it that way, so that they could do what happens in the last half of that episode.
Although I’ve enjoyed Star Wars to the point of reading spin-off novels for 20 years, Andor is the first piece of media I’ve seen in that universe that so clearly intends to be more than just space storytimes. Many of the spin-off things have, for me, had the feel of people picking up well-loved toys and re-enacting stories they wanted to see with those toys, within the existing framework. But Andor, to me, is not about that. It’s storytelling that engages by questioning the underlying premises of what came before. Why are planets described by their own environments and resources, and not the people that live there? Why are the stormtroopers actually so bad at their jobs? Who would sign up to help the empire if it’s so obviously evil/going to get you dead? If the empire was so overwhelming, how did the rebels win?
And to me, that’s where the parallel to the Wire is clearest — the same way that the Wire radically reshaped the kind of stories that could be told and should be told about cops and robbers drama, questioning why the cops and robbers were out there, who the robbers were in equal measure to the cops, and so on, Andor is reshaping expectations about the stories that can and should be told in a franchised show about space rebels pewpew prevailing against space empire. It’s one level of abstraction out, because the Wire is bluntly about the real life social issues they’re commenting on and Andor is one step removed and and speaking in metaphor, but Andor is presenting compelling answers about why people further fascist ends, the mechanisms empires exert control, and also the flip side of that.
When was the last time you saw something on big budget corporate TV where a teen protestor threw a homemade pipe bomb at colonizers and was shown as being in the right???????
posted by joyceanmachine at 6:04 AM on December 4, 2022 [25 favorites]
As stated before by others, it’s a slow burn and you have to get to the third episode before it takes off.
I’m in the camp of people who know all too well what is meant by “for adults”. I’m of the original Star Wars generation who grew up with the movies. There is a distinct shift between the first two movies that were “for everyone” and the third movie when Lucas decided that literal teddy bears were a good idea.
Later productions have kind of wobbled on that spectrum for better or worse ever since.
Andor takes a hard turn at showing us the sacrifice and struggle that’s just around the corner and hinted at in certain scenes from the movies. But it also shows us the personal connections and basis of hope for people who aren’t space wizards. It’s a very human series about the people who are the foundation of this galaxy.
posted by Fleebnork at 6:19 AM on December 4, 2022 [8 favorites]
I’m in the camp of people who know all too well what is meant by “for adults”. I’m of the original Star Wars generation who grew up with the movies. There is a distinct shift between the first two movies that were “for everyone” and the third movie when Lucas decided that literal teddy bears were a good idea.
Later productions have kind of wobbled on that spectrum for better or worse ever since.
Andor takes a hard turn at showing us the sacrifice and struggle that’s just around the corner and hinted at in certain scenes from the movies. But it also shows us the personal connections and basis of hope for people who aren’t space wizards. It’s a very human series about the people who are the foundation of this galaxy.
posted by Fleebnork at 6:19 AM on December 4, 2022 [8 favorites]
It's often said that the three essential ingredients that make up the Star Wars gazpacho are 1) everything is old, 2) the galaxy is in rebellion, and 3) the force is real.
Not surprisingly, we--and possibly the writers of Andor, though it's too soon to tell--often stumble on number 3. If you're aiming for mature, adult hard sci-fi, the notion goes, than how can you include mind control and telekinesis into the mix?
This line of argument, however, forgets the era in which the original Star Wars was written and released to movie houses. Back then--nearly half a century ago--mind control and telekinesis *were hard scifi*. As-hard-as-it-gets, hard scifi.
That was an era when the government and many academic research institutes spent millions of dollars on investigating parapsycological phenomena every year. When moving objects with the mind was taken very seriously as a possibility, both by a large number of scientists and many in the general populous.
It's not surprising that sci-fi writers in this era--even in the genre we now refer to as hard sci-fi--introduced parapsychology into their tales. When it comes to TV sci-fi, like Star Trek TOS, mind control and telekinesis were all over the place, and in nearly every episode.
So, audiences on May 25, 1977 wouldn't have necessarily seen the force as science fantasy rather than science fiction. They would have seen it as a comfortable part of a sci-fi universe. If Andor had been made in the late 70s, rather than today, it's almost inevitable that moving things with the mind would have been woven into every episode. The show would be very force-centric.
That's not the case today, however. So, from the original list, 1) and 2) make the cut and 3)--the force--gets thrown to the wayside.
I'm guessing that, for the sake of consistency to the Star Wars universe, the force will eventually make it into season 2, most likely as a sub-plot, along with its primary wielders, who are the Jedi and the Sith.
But it's going to be a tough challenge. How do you introduce what we now regard as Star Wars woo-woo into a show as self-consciously sophisticated and mature as this one, without alienating your equally mature, post-parapsychology 21st century viewers?
posted by Gordion Knott at 6:21 AM on December 4, 2022 [10 favorites]
Not surprisingly, we--and possibly the writers of Andor, though it's too soon to tell--often stumble on number 3. If you're aiming for mature, adult hard sci-fi, the notion goes, than how can you include mind control and telekinesis into the mix?
This line of argument, however, forgets the era in which the original Star Wars was written and released to movie houses. Back then--nearly half a century ago--mind control and telekinesis *were hard scifi*. As-hard-as-it-gets, hard scifi.
That was an era when the government and many academic research institutes spent millions of dollars on investigating parapsycological phenomena every year. When moving objects with the mind was taken very seriously as a possibility, both by a large number of scientists and many in the general populous.
It's not surprising that sci-fi writers in this era--even in the genre we now refer to as hard sci-fi--introduced parapsychology into their tales. When it comes to TV sci-fi, like Star Trek TOS, mind control and telekinesis were all over the place, and in nearly every episode.
So, audiences on May 25, 1977 wouldn't have necessarily seen the force as science fantasy rather than science fiction. They would have seen it as a comfortable part of a sci-fi universe. If Andor had been made in the late 70s, rather than today, it's almost inevitable that moving things with the mind would have been woven into every episode. The show would be very force-centric.
That's not the case today, however. So, from the original list, 1) and 2) make the cut and 3)--the force--gets thrown to the wayside.
I'm guessing that, for the sake of consistency to the Star Wars universe, the force will eventually make it into season 2, most likely as a sub-plot, along with its primary wielders, who are the Jedi and the Sith.
But it's going to be a tough challenge. How do you introduce what we now regard as Star Wars woo-woo into a show as self-consciously sophisticated and mature as this one, without alienating your equally mature, post-parapsychology 21st century viewers?
posted by Gordion Knott at 6:21 AM on December 4, 2022 [10 favorites]
A lot of the "Force" stuff seems more or less "hard" depending on the scale of it. Convincing a couple of guards who don't honestly want to do the paperwork that "these aren't the droids you're looking for"? That's a lil psychology trick, some stage misdirection, easy swallow.
Telekinesis exists in this world, but it's hard as hell? Show your protagonist sweating to barely lift a marble off the table? Feels closer to scifi than fantasy. But someone else tossing a boulder they could never lift with muscles? That's magic, baby.
Force lightning is a straight-up magic spell; Palpatine is a wizard. Force choke, on the other hand? We all believe that Darth Vader has the strength to lift a guy and choke him, he's just doing it a little further away, with his mind. It doesn't crack the disbelief in the same way.
They absolutely can integrate the Force as long as they keep it feeling like a difficult-to-master tool, and not an overwhelming cheat-code.
posted by explosion at 6:36 AM on December 4, 2022 [11 favorites]
Telekinesis exists in this world, but it's hard as hell? Show your protagonist sweating to barely lift a marble off the table? Feels closer to scifi than fantasy. But someone else tossing a boulder they could never lift with muscles? That's magic, baby.
Force lightning is a straight-up magic spell; Palpatine is a wizard. Force choke, on the other hand? We all believe that Darth Vader has the strength to lift a guy and choke him, he's just doing it a little further away, with his mind. It doesn't crack the disbelief in the same way.
They absolutely can integrate the Force as long as they keep it feeling like a difficult-to-master tool, and not an overwhelming cheat-code.
posted by explosion at 6:36 AM on December 4, 2022 [11 favorites]
I am watching Andor on headphones and the audio production is absolutely great. It's nite, trying to let the kids sleep. As others have noted, it's the plot of The Battle of Algiers set in Star Wars. I am entertained by this Mickey Mouse production of it, and it reminds me to re-watch the anti-colonial masterpiece that is the battle.
Folks always mention how the cast of the old movie is largely amateurs, I think to temper expectations. I think it's one of the greatest movies, its flawed and dusty and there's a straight line from its subject to the IRA and the FLQ. I saw it first at an impressionable age when understanding partisanship, nationalism, and colonialism were still a struggle for me to get beyond the the superficial flag waving. Apparently the movie is streaming on HBO.
Both the movie and Andor uses the 'show don't tell method', and I think Andor's choice to take more time to unfold the radicalization process is necessary to hold a different sort of audience's hand through that journey. It's a great method of building a story and viewers will witness a richer background/fuller strength of the partisan/rebel mindset.
posted by zenon at 7:50 AM on December 4, 2022 [6 favorites]
Folks always mention how the cast of the old movie is largely amateurs, I think to temper expectations. I think it's one of the greatest movies, its flawed and dusty and there's a straight line from its subject to the IRA and the FLQ. I saw it first at an impressionable age when understanding partisanship, nationalism, and colonialism were still a struggle for me to get beyond the the superficial flag waving. Apparently the movie is streaming on HBO.
Both the movie and Andor uses the 'show don't tell method', and I think Andor's choice to take more time to unfold the radicalization process is necessary to hold a different sort of audience's hand through that journey. It's a great method of building a story and viewers will witness a richer background/fuller strength of the partisan/rebel mindset.
posted by zenon at 7:50 AM on December 4, 2022 [6 favorites]
I also think it's not that hard to keep most of the Force stuff out of the show (at least most of the time).
By this point in the timeline, all the Jedi are either dead or deep undercover. There are in fact only six known Jedi alive (Obi-Wan, Yoda, Ahsoka, Kanan, Ezra[ish], and possibly Quinlan Vos), although there may be plenty more offstage. The Imperial propoganda has done such a good job that most people don't know the Jedi were real and/or had real powers.
The Force is like some obscure religion you've heard of, you might know some people who talk about it, but it's not really part of modern life. Most lay people have never been trained in it and wouldn't necessarily recognize its workings even if they witnessed it. There were ever only 10,000 Jedi at the height of the order: in the whole galaxy, that's not a lot. The vast majority of people never met one.
So while Yoda could claim that the Force is behind Andor's recruitment to the rebellion, most people are just going to see it as chance. And the Jedi themselves have an incentive to limit their public exposure.
Later on in S2 I think we may see more discussion of the Force, because the stories about the Ghost crew are going to come out (that's the Rebel cell with 2 Jedi in it), and because Ahsoka has a significant role in gathering intelligence for the resistance groups. But that's later, and hopefully it can be done in a way that keeps it from breaking the suspension of disbelief for the audience.
posted by suelac at 7:55 AM on December 4, 2022 [4 favorites]
By this point in the timeline, all the Jedi are either dead or deep undercover. There are in fact only six known Jedi alive (Obi-Wan, Yoda, Ahsoka, Kanan, Ezra[ish], and possibly Quinlan Vos), although there may be plenty more offstage. The Imperial propoganda has done such a good job that most people don't know the Jedi were real and/or had real powers.
The Force is like some obscure religion you've heard of, you might know some people who talk about it, but it's not really part of modern life. Most lay people have never been trained in it and wouldn't necessarily recognize its workings even if they witnessed it. There were ever only 10,000 Jedi at the height of the order: in the whole galaxy, that's not a lot. The vast majority of people never met one.
So while Yoda could claim that the Force is behind Andor's recruitment to the rebellion, most people are just going to see it as chance. And the Jedi themselves have an incentive to limit their public exposure.
Later on in S2 I think we may see more discussion of the Force, because the stories about the Ghost crew are going to come out (that's the Rebel cell with 2 Jedi in it), and because Ahsoka has a significant role in gathering intelligence for the resistance groups. But that's later, and hopefully it can be done in a way that keeps it from breaking the suspension of disbelief for the audience.
posted by suelac at 7:55 AM on December 4, 2022 [4 favorites]
I can’t get behind the world building aspect of the prison sentencing thing though. The beings the Empire put into prison would mostly have families and friends who expected their sentences to end and for them to come home.
C.f. Russia and the huge number of prisoners who have been "recruited" as cannon fodder. Or, indeed, the US prison complex where punitive time tacked on to sentences is not uncommon.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 8:56 AM on December 4, 2022 [12 favorites]
C.f. Russia and the huge number of prisoners who have been "recruited" as cannon fodder. Or, indeed, the US prison complex where punitive time tacked on to sentences is not uncommon.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 8:56 AM on December 4, 2022 [12 favorites]
I loved Andor so much, and cannot believe it exists. There are three great speeches in all of Star Wars, and they are all in this show. Incredible work.
posted by EatTheWeek at 9:05 AM on December 4, 2022 [11 favorites]
posted by EatTheWeek at 9:05 AM on December 4, 2022 [11 favorites]
I just got done with episode 3, and the standouts for me were Fiona Shaw (who’s always great anyway) and Alex Ferns (Mosk), who I just saw in “The Devil’s Hour,” where he was also really good.
I don’t know if this is one I’ll revisit, because the dialogue is okay but not The Wire-snappy and clever, but I like it.
posted by Mister Moofoo at 11:02 AM on December 4, 2022
I don’t know if this is one I’ll revisit, because the dialogue is okay but not The Wire-snappy and clever, but I like it.
posted by Mister Moofoo at 11:02 AM on December 4, 2022
The "for adults" framing didn't bother me at all because I read it the other way around. Not that the rest of the franchise is only "for children", but rather that Andor is definitely not for children.
posted by bcd at 12:09 PM on December 4, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by bcd at 12:09 PM on December 4, 2022 [8 favorites]
"absolutely worth watching even if the idea of more Star Wars content in your life is absolutely repulsive."
Honest question. Is it worth watching even if the idea of *any* Star Wars content in your life is absolutely repulsive?
Basically, is it good if I haven't seen anything since the original trilogy? I did see II (Attack of Clones) and was so repulsed I haven't seen anything else since.
Mostly responding to this statement: "its a show for adults who understand the SW universe and are willing to engage with the tropes of premium TV"
Do I need to "understand the SW universe" (other than rebels good, empire bad) to enjoy it?
posted by mrgrimm at 12:43 PM on December 4, 2022
Honest question. Is it worth watching even if the idea of *any* Star Wars content in your life is absolutely repulsive?
Basically, is it good if I haven't seen anything since the original trilogy? I did see II (Attack of Clones) and was so repulsed I haven't seen anything else since.
Mostly responding to this statement: "its a show for adults who understand the SW universe and are willing to engage with the tropes of premium TV"
Do I need to "understand the SW universe" (other than rebels good, empire bad) to enjoy it?
posted by mrgrimm at 12:43 PM on December 4, 2022
mrgrimm, I'd argue that you really don't need to know Star Wars lore for it to be an interesting experience. If you're willing to accept that, as you said, "rebels good, empire bad," there's no worldbuilding that depends on catching references to understand it. There are a few things that do seem intentionally set up to reference later events in Rogue One (the film that this show is technically a prequel to) but aside from a bittersweet "oh," you won't miss out on much of the experience. Battle of Algiers is a good reference point, I think. In some ways you'll probably get more from being aware of the fight against fascism in the 20th century that the original trilogy stylistically referenced (and, by extension, the current fight against fascism) than people who know Star Wars but not politics got out of knowing Star Wars, if that makes any sense.
posted by Alterscape at 1:06 PM on December 4, 2022 [9 favorites]
posted by Alterscape at 1:06 PM on December 4, 2022 [9 favorites]
The only problem I have with Andor, which I thought was very good, is that will set off another wave of nerd posturing complaining about all the other sequels/prequals and that is frankly way more boring and offputting than any terrible star wars content could ever be.
posted by srboisvert at 3:01 PM on December 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by srboisvert at 3:01 PM on December 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
Thanks stboisvert, I now have nothing to add here. :-P
TFA and other commentary has said that this lets the SW Expanded Universe be (again) an interesting place to tell stories, which I'm glad for. One of the great joys of ST: Lower Decks it's precisely nerds enjoying their fandom -- and harmlessly at that -- where online fandom can do easily degenerate into deplorable behaviour in our current culture. So I hope that fans can be decent, that's not a new hope
(Noted that getting to the end of ep3 is needed to break into it.)
posted by k3ninho at 3:49 PM on December 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
TFA and other commentary has said that this lets the SW Expanded Universe be (again) an interesting place to tell stories, which I'm glad for. One of the great joys of ST: Lower Decks it's precisely nerds enjoying their fandom -- and harmlessly at that -- where online fandom can do easily degenerate into deplorable behaviour in our current culture. So I hope that fans can be decent, that's not a new hope
(Noted that getting to the end of ep3 is needed to break into it.)
posted by k3ninho at 3:49 PM on December 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
Noted that getting to the end of ep3 is needed to break into it.
Yup. The first 2 episodes are pretty slow-paced (some might even call them boring), but the 3rd episode really kicks things off.
I think if one treats it like a movie and watches the whole first arc at one time you may find that time well-spent.
or not! Not everything is for everyone.
posted by suelac at 4:13 PM on December 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
Yup. The first 2 episodes are pretty slow-paced (some might even call them boring), but the 3rd episode really kicks things off.
I think if one treats it like a movie and watches the whole first arc at one time you may find that time well-spent.
or not! Not everything is for everyone.
posted by suelac at 4:13 PM on December 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
Oh my my. My son and I are obsessed with this show. The gamification of the penal colony was brilliant as is so much of this show. It's brilliant even if you never thought of yourself as a SW fan. I just sad it will take two years before we see Season 2.
Great thread and great article!
posted by bluesky43 at 5:11 PM on December 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
Great thread and great article!
posted by bluesky43 at 5:11 PM on December 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
Honest question. Is it worth watching even if the idea of *any* Star Wars content in your life is absolutely repulsive?
I mean, I actively dislike Star Wars for various reasons and I was sad there was not more Andor to watch immediately when this ended. Like I said above and many others have pointed out, the first two episodes are not super engaging and it's 4 or 5 where it started to get really good for me. Numerous excellent actors, lots of attention to detail, people behaving like the characters they're meant to be instead of what the plot dictates. It looks good and sounds good, and -thank god- only one droid that's a recurring character.
posted by oneirodynia at 7:40 PM on December 4, 2022 [6 favorites]
I mean, I actively dislike Star Wars for various reasons and I was sad there was not more Andor to watch immediately when this ended. Like I said above and many others have pointed out, the first two episodes are not super engaging and it's 4 or 5 where it started to get really good for me. Numerous excellent actors, lots of attention to detail, people behaving like the characters they're meant to be instead of what the plot dictates. It looks good and sounds good, and -thank god- only one droid that's a recurring character.
posted by oneirodynia at 7:40 PM on December 4, 2022 [6 favorites]
I can’t get behind the world building aspect of the prison sentencing thing though. The beings the Empire put into prison would mostly have families and friends who expected their sentences to end and for them to come home. Apparently the plan was for none of them to do so.
Let me guess... you don't live in America.
posted by axiom at 10:25 PM on December 4, 2022 [13 favorites]
Let me guess... you don't live in America.
posted by axiom at 10:25 PM on December 4, 2022 [13 favorites]
Every single time the show mentioned food with flavor being a reward or showed those awful tubes, I thought of Nutraloaf.
posted by joyceanmachine at 6:56 AM on December 5, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by joyceanmachine at 6:56 AM on December 5, 2022 [4 favorites]
Which is to say that one of the things I appreciated about Andor — aside from it being a rip-roaring good story with incredible writing, camera work, acting, and music, my god the music — is that it was even more interesting if you’re engaged with stuff besides Star Wars or scifi. Like the Nutraloaf. Or Amazon warehouses. Or the 1907 Tiflis robbery. Or the King David Hotel bombing.
posted by joyceanmachine at 7:13 AM on December 5, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by joyceanmachine at 7:13 AM on December 5, 2022 [8 favorites]
The "for adults" framing didn't bother me at all because I read it the other way around. Not that the rest of the franchise is only "for children", but rather that Andor is definitely not for children.
Ok this is an interpretation I hadn't considered and makes a lot of sense and is definitely a more sincere, good faith response than comparing RotJ to the Care Bears, so thanks for that
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 10:06 AM on December 5, 2022 [2 favorites]
Ok this is an interpretation I hadn't considered and makes a lot of sense and is definitely a more sincere, good faith response than comparing RotJ to the Care Bears, so thanks for that
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 10:06 AM on December 5, 2022 [2 favorites]
The only problem I have with Andor, which I thought was very good, is that will set off another wave of nerd posturing complaining about all the other sequels/prequals and that is frankly way more boring and offputting than any terrible star wars content could ever be.
It's quite the other direction, actually. The Star Wars-specific nerdragers mostly dislike Andor, even when they admit its quality, because it "isn't proper Star Wars" - there aren't any of the characters they know and recognize, which for them is mostly the point of Star Wars.
posted by mightygodking at 1:12 PM on December 5, 2022 [7 favorites]
It's quite the other direction, actually. The Star Wars-specific nerdragers mostly dislike Andor, even when they admit its quality, because it "isn't proper Star Wars" - there aren't any of the characters they know and recognize, which for them is mostly the point of Star Wars.
posted by mightygodking at 1:12 PM on December 5, 2022 [7 favorites]
In Star Trek, there is a planet Andor, with blue skinned Andorians with feelers on their heads. They are some of my favorite characters in the Star Trek franchise. So why couldn't Star Wars create their own, other, intellectual property?
posted by Oyéah at 2:14 PM on December 6, 2022
posted by Oyéah at 2:14 PM on December 6, 2022
Just finished Andor. Wow! I am not a big Star Wars guy but this show managed to have a prison break, a heist, a spy thriller all in one season. Really one of the best Sci-Fi shows I've ever seen.
posted by chaz at 6:57 PM on December 6, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by chaz at 6:57 PM on December 6, 2022 [4 favorites]
So why couldn't Star Wars create their own, other, intellectual property?
For what it's worth, Star Trek didn't create the name "Andor" either; It's a name used in Scandinavia and Hungary that also has meanings in Norse and Greek etymologies. Star Wars character names are almost always a geographical/mythological mish-mash with the occasional nonsense syllables thrown in for color, so I don't know that they were even thinking about potential collisions with Star Trek when they named the second lead in Rogue One "Cassian Andor." At the very least, Paramount's lawyers haven't shut them down.
posted by Strange Interlude at 7:46 AM on December 7, 2022 [3 favorites]
For what it's worth, Star Trek didn't create the name "Andor" either; It's a name used in Scandinavia and Hungary that also has meanings in Norse and Greek etymologies. Star Wars character names are almost always a geographical/mythological mish-mash with the occasional nonsense syllables thrown in for color, so I don't know that they were even thinking about potential collisions with Star Trek when they named the second lead in Rogue One "Cassian Andor." At the very least, Paramount's lawyers haven't shut them down.
posted by Strange Interlude at 7:46 AM on December 7, 2022 [3 favorites]
> I do love that D+ hired the Gilroys to make a prequel to Rogue One and they delivered a combination of Army of Shadows and The Battle of Algiers set in the Star Wars universe.
for some reason, i was just thinking v (the miniseries) and alien nation (wtf happened, tubi) :P
posted by kliuless at 7:11 AM on December 8, 2022
for some reason, i was just thinking v (the miniseries) and alien nation (wtf happened, tubi) :P
posted by kliuless at 7:11 AM on December 8, 2022
“The Revolutionary Spirit of Star Wars Andor” [120 min.]—Jessie Gender, 09 December 2022
posted by ob1quixote at 5:32 PM on December 9, 2022
posted by ob1quixote at 5:32 PM on December 9, 2022
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I had my issues with it - a few important things happen off-stage, and there are a couple red herrings and "and then" moments that should have been "therefore" ones. But at its worst it was merely good, not embarrassing, the way some recent shows have been. It's easily the best Star Wars content since Rogue One (which had plenty of issues itself), and one of the best of the year overall as well.
posted by BlackLeotardFront at 1:20 PM on December 3, 2022 [3 favorites]