Brass Shinier Than Gloom
February 21, 2023 7:38 AM Subscribe
After almost five years, Gloomhaven has been knocked out of the #1 spot on BoardGameGeek (with some back-and-forth thanks to review-bombing drama). The new top game (as compiled from ratings by BGG users) is Brass: Birmingham, an Industrial Revolution economic simulation. Brass: Birmingham is just the eighth game in BGG history to reach #1, and the second sequel (after Pandemic: Legacy); the original Brass (now known as Brass: Lancashire) is the 20th highest-ranked game on BGG.
I've been meaning to try this new Brass.
Anyone know how it plays as an introduction to simulation games?
posted by doctornemo at 8:48 AM on February 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
Anyone know how it plays as an introduction to simulation games?
posted by doctornemo at 8:48 AM on February 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
I don't know that these lists actually measure quality so much. Gloomhaven is an impressive product, but it's never looked like much fun to me. Like, take D&D and remove all the interesting parts. Puerto Rico was top of the list for a long while despite its problematic themes. Pandemic is a great game that most people don't really want to play anymore. It's definitely a list of games that people consider desirable, but there are so many different types of games now that personal recommendations based on what you like are going to be much better.
Reminds me I need to get my hands on a copy of Everdell.
posted by rikschell at 8:52 AM on February 21, 2023 [2 favorites]
Reminds me I need to get my hands on a copy of Everdell.
posted by rikschell at 8:52 AM on February 21, 2023 [2 favorites]
I still can't believe that Paths of Glory was #1 for a while. It's one of my favorite games, it's soo good, and really shows off the wonderfulness that can be card-driven games. But I would call it quite niche, and pretty finicky, your first play through is going to be very overwhelming.
It was #1 basically when BGG first appeared as a website, around 2000-2001, and the userbase was much nerdier and into heavier games than it is now.
posted by mightygodking at 8:54 AM on February 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
It was #1 basically when BGG first appeared as a website, around 2000-2001, and the userbase was much nerdier and into heavier games than it is now.
posted by mightygodking at 8:54 AM on February 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
I don't know that these lists actually measure quality so much.
A while back a data nerd pointed out that the BGG ratings have inherent complexity bias because the users most likely to rate games and record plays (number of plays weights an individual rating more in the overall aggregate) are serious gamers who prefer heavier, crunchier games as a matter of course. He tried to correct for that bias, which resulted in Gloomhaven dropping to #4, Pandemic Legacy moving to #1 again and a bunch of "lighter" games like Codenames, Ticket to Ride and Santorini moving into the top 10.
I'm not sure his arguments are entirely solid (he complains for a bit about how old mass-market games are generally given poor ratings, while ignoring the fact that old mass-market games are mostly very shit). But it's an interesting thought process.
posted by mightygodking at 9:03 AM on February 21, 2023 [6 favorites]
A while back a data nerd pointed out that the BGG ratings have inherent complexity bias because the users most likely to rate games and record plays (number of plays weights an individual rating more in the overall aggregate) are serious gamers who prefer heavier, crunchier games as a matter of course. He tried to correct for that bias, which resulted in Gloomhaven dropping to #4, Pandemic Legacy moving to #1 again and a bunch of "lighter" games like Codenames, Ticket to Ride and Santorini moving into the top 10.
I'm not sure his arguments are entirely solid (he complains for a bit about how old mass-market games are generally given poor ratings, while ignoring the fact that old mass-market games are mostly very shit). But it's an interesting thought process.
posted by mightygodking at 9:03 AM on February 21, 2023 [6 favorites]
Anyone know how it plays as an introduction to simulation games?
It's fine, especially if someone competent teaches it to you and you're not afraid of some rules grit. There is some unintuitive weirdness about how and from/to where on the board to spend/deliver the different types of resources (coal, iron and beer), but other than that I think the game is really compelling. Roxley's production is gorgeous. The Iron Clays poker chips you get with the deluxe edition are amazing. The game board can be a bit hard to read though.
posted by jklaiho at 9:05 AM on February 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
It's fine, especially if someone competent teaches it to you and you're not afraid of some rules grit. There is some unintuitive weirdness about how and from/to where on the board to spend/deliver the different types of resources (coal, iron and beer), but other than that I think the game is really compelling. Roxley's production is gorgeous. The Iron Clays poker chips you get with the deluxe edition are amazing. The game board can be a bit hard to read though.
posted by jklaiho at 9:05 AM on February 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
A while back a data nerd pointed out that the BGG ratings have inherent complexity bias because the users most likely to rate games and record plays (number of plays weights an individual rating more in the overall aggregate) are serious gamers who prefer heavier, crunchier games as a matter of course. He tried to correct for that bias, which resulted in Gloomhaven dropping to #4, Pandemic Legacy moving to #1 again and a bunch of "lighter" games like Codenames, Ticket to Ride and Santorini moving into the top 10.
Codenames is really fantastic. Vlaada Chvatil has made awesome games in a bunch of different categories. Like Codenames is admirably lightweight while also being pretty deep and interesting, and scales to like 10 players if you want. He also made Mageknight which is one of those very crunchy fantasy games with like 5 different interlocking system. Then there's Tash'Kalar, which is a secret third thing. Of course Galaxy Trucker.
posted by grobstein at 9:22 AM on February 21, 2023 [4 favorites]
Codenames is really fantastic. Vlaada Chvatil has made awesome games in a bunch of different categories. Like Codenames is admirably lightweight while also being pretty deep and interesting, and scales to like 10 players if you want. He also made Mageknight which is one of those very crunchy fantasy games with like 5 different interlocking system. Then there's Tash'Kalar, which is a secret third thing. Of course Galaxy Trucker.
posted by grobstein at 9:22 AM on February 21, 2023 [4 favorites]
Thank you, jklaiho.
posted by doctornemo at 9:30 AM on February 21, 2023
posted by doctornemo at 9:30 AM on February 21, 2023
Codenames is really fantastic.
It is! I picked up a copy I found in a thrift store for a couple of bucks that still had the cards in their shrink wrap, and my family really enjoyed it. Especially my mother-in-law, who wants to join in on games, but finds some of the stuff we do - like Century: Spice Road or Dominion a little too much to handle at times (but she regularly wipes the table out at Splendor) - had an absolute blast playing it. It's a fascinating game for trying to understand how the other people at the table think, and if they will get the multiple meanings of your reference. Plus, it allows for everyone to play co-operatively if you want, which we found very enjoyable for the first few games, while everyone is learning together.
posted by nubs at 9:37 AM on February 21, 2023 [3 favorites]
It is! I picked up a copy I found in a thrift store for a couple of bucks that still had the cards in their shrink wrap, and my family really enjoyed it. Especially my mother-in-law, who wants to join in on games, but finds some of the stuff we do - like Century: Spice Road or Dominion a little too much to handle at times (but she regularly wipes the table out at Splendor) - had an absolute blast playing it. It's a fascinating game for trying to understand how the other people at the table think, and if they will get the multiple meanings of your reference. Plus, it allows for everyone to play co-operatively if you want, which we found very enjoyable for the first few games, while everyone is learning together.
posted by nubs at 9:37 AM on February 21, 2023 [3 favorites]
Re: the overall #1s often being niche or complex, BGG's family game rankings are fairly stable and might be possible to reconstruct too. Over the past decade, I think 7 Wonders held the top spot for years, then Azul, then Wingspan.
posted by Wobbuffet at 9:44 AM on February 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Wobbuffet at 9:44 AM on February 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
you're not afraid of some rules grit
You lost me at rules grit.
posted by biffa at 9:54 AM on February 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
You lost me at rules grit.
posted by biffa at 9:54 AM on February 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
Good co-op games are really tough to design and when Gloomhaven came out it was like a revelation. Previous co-op games had a traitor or an openly antagonist character but in Gloomhaven every character is given situations where they have to weigh the risk of making a sub-optimal action with personal benefits.
There's kind of an interesting trade off with content heavy games like Gloomhaven - they are designed to be brought to the table every week for a certain period of time, but once it's complete they're not really "replayable" in the way that a game like Brass is replayable. So people who played Gloomhaven in 2018 aren't going to bring it out at board game night & expose it to a new player. Meanwhile a game like Brass is timeless.
posted by muddgirl at 10:00 AM on February 21, 2023 [3 favorites]
There's kind of an interesting trade off with content heavy games like Gloomhaven - they are designed to be brought to the table every week for a certain period of time, but once it's complete they're not really "replayable" in the way that a game like Brass is replayable. So people who played Gloomhaven in 2018 aren't going to bring it out at board game night & expose it to a new player. Meanwhile a game like Brass is timeless.
posted by muddgirl at 10:00 AM on February 21, 2023 [3 favorites]
(Ok I admit I haven't played it or really any board game that isn't Candyland or Frosthaven or many years but I'm basing that on the description).
posted by muddgirl at 10:01 AM on February 21, 2023
posted by muddgirl at 10:01 AM on February 21, 2023
The original Brass is fugly as hell, but ngl - that Birmingham is so... gorgeous. It seems way too heavy for my style of play (likewise for gloomhaven). I did get Twilight Struggle when I started getting into the scene and that was the champ forever. Wish I had more time/energy/brain/friends who would come over to play boardgame these days. Pandemic stuff makes that harder.
posted by symbioid at 10:18 AM on February 21, 2023
posted by symbioid at 10:18 AM on February 21, 2023
Perhaps a bit off-topic but: has anyone tried Gloomhaven on PC or Mac? I'm intrigued, but I do not have a physical table I can dedicate to a complex game that my wife (or I) might not want to even play after reading rules and doing all the setup. Anyone have any good summaries of what Gloomhaven is in detail? I've just read a couple summaries, but I'd like to read some turn by turn examples, or any other really great descriptions of how the game works. My background: I started with AD&D back in the '80s and then took a 35+ year hiatus and have been playing 5e for the last five years.
Looking for write-ups better than "This is a great dungeon-crawl tactical game that uses cards- 9/10" Thanks.
posted by SoberHighland at 10:39 AM on February 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
Looking for write-ups better than "This is a great dungeon-crawl tactical game that uses cards- 9/10" Thanks.
posted by SoberHighland at 10:39 AM on February 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
I've tried the Gloomhaven PC implementation solo a few times (I've never played it in person, and am not likely to, given time constraints / friend circles / partner interests) and keep bouncing off it real hard -- it seems to dip just a squidge too far into fiddly, and the interface never quite felt natural to me. I always felt like I didn't fully understand the cards or their implications and was being punished harshly for even minor bad decisions.
By contrast, I've played a lot of the PC game Wildermyth, which feels like what I wanted the Gloomhaven PC adaptation to feel like, and I find scratches my tactical/RPG itch very nicely.
posted by Shepherd at 10:47 AM on February 21, 2023 [5 favorites]
By contrast, I've played a lot of the PC game Wildermyth, which feels like what I wanted the Gloomhaven PC adaptation to feel like, and I find scratches my tactical/RPG itch very nicely.
posted by Shepherd at 10:47 AM on February 21, 2023 [5 favorites]
Gllomhaven is baaasically a tactical minis game, with character advancement and some choose-your-own-adventure level campaign plot. 50% of your time will be spent setting up and putting the game away. Of the remaining 50%, about 80-90% will be spent in the tactical minis game, and the remaining time will be spent on character upgrades and 'campaign stuff.'
Characters have a deck of actions. As you level up, you choose actions to add to your deck. Each adventure, you pick ~10 of your action cards to bring into battle. On your turn, you play two cards. Over the course of each adventure, your deck gets smaller as you burn a card when you use one-time-use actions, reshuffle your deck, or take grievous bodily harm. Each adventure has some specific objectives, and your goal is to complete them before running out of cards, basically.
There's a ton of unlock-ing; eventually characters retire and you get new character options. (This is really fun!) Parties end up being a fun mix of higher and lower level characters as people retire at different rates; this works pretty well, IMO, much better than in, say, D&D, where a 1st level character in a 10th level party literally won't matter.
posted by kaibutsu at 10:47 AM on February 21, 2023 [3 favorites]
Characters have a deck of actions. As you level up, you choose actions to add to your deck. Each adventure, you pick ~10 of your action cards to bring into battle. On your turn, you play two cards. Over the course of each adventure, your deck gets smaller as you burn a card when you use one-time-use actions, reshuffle your deck, or take grievous bodily harm. Each adventure has some specific objectives, and your goal is to complete them before running out of cards, basically.
There's a ton of unlock-ing; eventually characters retire and you get new character options. (This is really fun!) Parties end up being a fun mix of higher and lower level characters as people retire at different rates; this works pretty well, IMO, much better than in, say, D&D, where a 1st level character in a 10th level party literally won't matter.
posted by kaibutsu at 10:47 AM on February 21, 2023 [3 favorites]
It shouldn't be compared to D&D or any roleplaying game really. It has some level-up mechanics borrowed from TRPG games like the concept of levels based on XP leading to stronger skills but the roleplaying itself is really a theme or skin for the underlying tactics game. The decisions you make at the character level don't affect the progress of the story of the game in any way.
There is an (apparently card-based) RPG in the same universe being Kickstarted later this year.
posted by muddgirl at 11:11 AM on February 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
There is an (apparently card-based) RPG in the same universe being Kickstarted later this year.
posted by muddgirl at 11:11 AM on February 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
I enjoyed playing Gloomhaven with friends in person for a bit. Kaibutsu summarizes it well. The biggest complaint I had with Gloomhaven was how fiddly it was as a board game--we ended up using an iOS app that kept track of hit points and status effects for the different characters, and that helped a lot. Having a PC to handle that and also the game board would probably make it a lot smoother of an experience.
If you want to watch people play it, the Shut Up and Sit Down guys have a review and then a playthrough example with 2 players
posted by JDHarper at 11:13 AM on February 21, 2023 [3 favorites]
If you want to watch people play it, the Shut Up and Sit Down guys have a review and then a playthrough example with 2 players
posted by JDHarper at 11:13 AM on February 21, 2023 [3 favorites]
I found Gloomhaven's PC version fantastic ; I've not played the physical version and from what I've read would likely not have had the stamina to keep playing after the first session or two due to setup and overall time investment.
On PC though I was able to get a good half way through the campaign playing once weekly for 2-3 hours as a trio until other life stuff scuppered our run.
I would echo what Shepherd said about the cards and their implications and feeling like you're being punished; I can only say that it clicked for us by the end of the second dungeon and the frustration was replaced with fascination at the way the combat system evolved in a balance between harder scenarios and slow pc power gain.
I definitely think it helped to be part of a group who all enjoyed talking about the mechanics as we went, not just for working together efficiently but also keying into little aspects of how the systems boosted the setting and narrative. I have fond memories of playing the squishy ratty mindthief who would skulk behind everyone else and then dart forward to make big finishing hits and nab all the loots for themselves (not always in that order...)
posted by protorp at 11:14 AM on February 21, 2023 [2 favorites]
On PC though I was able to get a good half way through the campaign playing once weekly for 2-3 hours as a trio until other life stuff scuppered our run.
I would echo what Shepherd said about the cards and their implications and feeling like you're being punished; I can only say that it clicked for us by the end of the second dungeon and the frustration was replaced with fascination at the way the combat system evolved in a balance between harder scenarios and slow pc power gain.
I definitely think it helped to be part of a group who all enjoyed talking about the mechanics as we went, not just for working together efficiently but also keying into little aspects of how the systems boosted the setting and narrative. I have fond memories of playing the squishy ratty mindthief who would skulk behind everyone else and then dart forward to make big finishing hits and nab all the loots for themselves (not always in that order...)
posted by protorp at 11:14 AM on February 21, 2023 [2 favorites]
For anyone who loves (or wants to try) Codenames, horsepaste.com allows you to play with people who are physically separated. It was a revelation during the pandemic, but it still works for friends and family near and far.
posted by rikschell at 11:17 AM on February 21, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by rikschell at 11:17 AM on February 21, 2023 [4 favorites]
PS another echo of Shepherd... Wildermyth is incredible, if you're remotely positive on either dungeon crawling or moving fantasy character development you should play it asap.
I think I've said it before here on an AskMe, it's the only solo rpg I've ever played where on multiple occasions I felt like I had no choice but to make sub-optimal progression decisions because that's what my characters would do. And that comes out of procedural, rather than fully scripted character and plot development. It's a masterpiece of game design.
posted by protorp at 11:27 AM on February 21, 2023 [2 favorites]
I think I've said it before here on an AskMe, it's the only solo rpg I've ever played where on multiple occasions I felt like I had no choice but to make sub-optimal progression decisions because that's what my characters would do. And that comes out of procedural, rather than fully scripted character and plot development. It's a masterpiece of game design.
posted by protorp at 11:27 AM on February 21, 2023 [2 favorites]
We've got a copy of Brass Birmingham, and it is gorgeous. Some of the rules felt a bit weird at first, but by the second game we were flying through it pretty seamlessly. Need to play it some more, it's good fun.
posted by Dysk at 11:29 AM on February 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Dysk at 11:29 AM on February 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
Just the other day I learned that crokinole is ranked 54th in that database. Almost made me want to buy a board.
posted by clawsoon at 11:41 AM on February 21, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by clawsoon at 11:41 AM on February 21, 2023 [2 favorites]
You should absolutely buy or build a crokinole board.
posted by Acari at 11:46 AM on February 21, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by Acari at 11:46 AM on February 21, 2023 [9 favorites]
I've been playing through Gloomhaven with a remote friend. We actually started with an in-person copy while I was visiting her, but we moved to Steam since we're on different ends of this continent. I like me a game with some fiddly bits (yay for Galaxy Trucker), but I find the Mac via Steam version nicer.
Occasionally I think it misinterprets rules I would have treated another way; more often it counts better than I can (and so I get walloped by something I thought was out of range). It's been a great way to keep up with my friend while getting some stress relief via dungeon crawl. I don't think i'd have the headspace (or table space) to do an in-person play through, but as a remote meetup it's great.
I no longer go to big group game nights where I pick up new games, so things like Gloomhaven tend to hit me late; on the other hand, perhaps relatedly, I don't really bother with putting anything on BGG these days either. And mostly I actually take recs for games more directly from people I know, or from Metafilter. (So yay for new games! Bonus for 2player since most often I'm playing with Mr. Nat; or for great remote games so we can get our nonlocal friends involved. Local friends can only be coerced to play lightweights, so multiplayer lightweights are good too).
posted by nat at 12:10 PM on February 21, 2023 [2 favorites]
Occasionally I think it misinterprets rules I would have treated another way; more often it counts better than I can (and so I get walloped by something I thought was out of range). It's been a great way to keep up with my friend while getting some stress relief via dungeon crawl. I don't think i'd have the headspace (or table space) to do an in-person play through, but as a remote meetup it's great.
I no longer go to big group game nights where I pick up new games, so things like Gloomhaven tend to hit me late; on the other hand, perhaps relatedly, I don't really bother with putting anything on BGG these days either. And mostly I actually take recs for games more directly from people I know, or from Metafilter. (So yay for new games! Bonus for 2player since most often I'm playing with Mr. Nat; or for great remote games so we can get our nonlocal friends involved. Local friends can only be coerced to play lightweights, so multiplayer lightweights are good too).
posted by nat at 12:10 PM on February 21, 2023 [2 favorites]
It shouldn't be compared to D&D or any roleplaying game really.
D&D is a continuum, though... In the 80's, it was a mix of tactical minis game and improv game, and depending on your gaming group could be a lot more of a game about hitting things than a game about improv. All of the high that one gets from the tactical minis aspect was steadily supplanted by computer games over time, which can handle complex systems more seamlessly, and more efficiently deliver the thrill of murdering goblins. Also, you don't need to get four of your friends together to get the endorphin thrill of leveling up and rolling an extra hit-die.
Computers are really good at handling fetch quests, numerical character traits, and murder-hobo mechanics, it turns out.
So over time, I think the focus of TTRPGs has tended to focus more on what CRPGs can't do: improv with friends. Gloomhaven plays a lot like a CRPG: lots of monster bashing and relatively low characterization and narrative complexity.
posted by kaibutsu at 12:55 PM on February 21, 2023 [2 favorites]
D&D is a continuum, though... In the 80's, it was a mix of tactical minis game and improv game, and depending on your gaming group could be a lot more of a game about hitting things than a game about improv. All of the high that one gets from the tactical minis aspect was steadily supplanted by computer games over time, which can handle complex systems more seamlessly, and more efficiently deliver the thrill of murdering goblins. Also, you don't need to get four of your friends together to get the endorphin thrill of leveling up and rolling an extra hit-die.
Computers are really good at handling fetch quests, numerical character traits, and murder-hobo mechanics, it turns out.
So over time, I think the focus of TTRPGs has tended to focus more on what CRPGs can't do: improv with friends. Gloomhaven plays a lot like a CRPG: lots of monster bashing and relatively low characterization and narrative complexity.
posted by kaibutsu at 12:55 PM on February 21, 2023 [2 favorites]
Even compared to CRPGs it's missing two critical components (per CRPGaddict's definition): random encounters & freedom of movement. There are technically random scenarios but they're not really integrated. And you can technically go back and play old scenarios but nothing has changed based on winning the scenario or future scenarios.
I think missing these two components makes it closer to a turn-based tactical puzzle game.
posted by muddgirl at 1:58 PM on February 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
I think missing these two components makes it closer to a turn-based tactical puzzle game.
posted by muddgirl at 1:58 PM on February 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
Computers are really good at handling fetch quests, numerical character traits, and murder-hobo mechanics, it turns out.
So over time, I think the focus of TTRPGs has tended to focus more on what CRPGs can't do: improv with friends.
Well, yes and no. The last D&D session I ran involved the players defending a small, abandoned harbor against two ships trying to gain entrance. One of the players polymorphed into a sperm whale to attack the ship, another dove into the water to attack the lizard folk who were along as amphibious troops, while two others ran a ballista and the last one acted as crowd control against the flying kobolds who came out to just harass everyone, while the aboleth who had hired the players to help defend the place also sent out some allies for the fight. In short, it was a bunch of tactical mini fighting all over the place, with a lot of wild & complex shit happening, that I do not think a computer could have handled. D&D at the table lets me stage combats that I would love computer assistance for, but I don't think a computer could run.
I do think the social, improv aspect of the game has come a long way, but I don't know if I would say that is the result of CRPGs, or the result of TTRPGs like D&D continuing to evolve away from their wargaming roots and drawing in players more interested in the stories that emerge than the tactical situations.
posted by nubs at 2:09 PM on February 21, 2023 [3 favorites]
So over time, I think the focus of TTRPGs has tended to focus more on what CRPGs can't do: improv with friends.
Well, yes and no. The last D&D session I ran involved the players defending a small, abandoned harbor against two ships trying to gain entrance. One of the players polymorphed into a sperm whale to attack the ship, another dove into the water to attack the lizard folk who were along as amphibious troops, while two others ran a ballista and the last one acted as crowd control against the flying kobolds who came out to just harass everyone, while the aboleth who had hired the players to help defend the place also sent out some allies for the fight. In short, it was a bunch of tactical mini fighting all over the place, with a lot of wild & complex shit happening, that I do not think a computer could have handled. D&D at the table lets me stage combats that I would love computer assistance for, but I don't think a computer could run.
I do think the social, improv aspect of the game has come a long way, but I don't know if I would say that is the result of CRPGs, or the result of TTRPGs like D&D continuing to evolve away from their wargaming roots and drawing in players more interested in the stories that emerge than the tactical situations.
posted by nubs at 2:09 PM on February 21, 2023 [3 favorites]
It's still possible for even a highly enumerated games like Pathfinder for players to have lots more choices of actions (essentially verbs they can do) than in any CRPG. Indeed, CPRGs are mostly limited by their interfaces in this respect. It's hard to offer a few dozen possibilities for characters in a way that works in a computer interface.
Even something midway between rules and rulings like D&D 5e balloons the sphere of possibilities the players can take, let alone the custom actions and abilities that monsters get. An MCDM-style Action Oriented Monster would need custom code and animations for each ability. There are hundreds, if not thousands of those.
I can't imagine how a player-driven narrative like Blades in the Dark or MonsterHearts would work. You would have to make a lot of story-driven choices, more like an old point-and-click adventure game, less like an RPG. Those kinds of games exist, but they're out-of-mainstream things like King of Dragon Pass or Cultist Simulator that simulate narrative with a rogue-like construction of a random selection of pre-written events, but I can't think of a AAA mainstream game that works this way.
posted by bonehead at 3:14 PM on February 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
Even something midway between rules and rulings like D&D 5e balloons the sphere of possibilities the players can take, let alone the custom actions and abilities that monsters get. An MCDM-style Action Oriented Monster would need custom code and animations for each ability. There are hundreds, if not thousands of those.
I can't imagine how a player-driven narrative like Blades in the Dark or MonsterHearts would work. You would have to make a lot of story-driven choices, more like an old point-and-click adventure game, less like an RPG. Those kinds of games exist, but they're out-of-mainstream things like King of Dragon Pass or Cultist Simulator that simulate narrative with a rogue-like construction of a random selection of pre-written events, but I can't think of a AAA mainstream game that works this way.
posted by bonehead at 3:14 PM on February 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
Acari: You should absolutely buy or build a crokinole board.
The problem is finding someone to play it with, given that I'm not much of an invite-people-over kind of person. I wonder if any board game cafes around here have one... hmm...
posted by clawsoon at 3:23 PM on February 21, 2023
The problem is finding someone to play it with, given that I'm not much of an invite-people-over kind of person. I wonder if any board game cafes around here have one... hmm...
posted by clawsoon at 3:23 PM on February 21, 2023
Through the Ages was better
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 4:52 PM on February 21, 2023
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 4:52 PM on February 21, 2023
My D&D DM who owns the copy of Jaws of the Lion (Gloomhaven’s beginner version) we’re playing describes it as much more of a puzzle game than anything else. I would agree. Playing each scenario reminds me a lot more of playing, say, Portal, than running a battle in D&D. I find it ridiculously fun—and I say that as someone who thinks D&D is the most fun if you throw out all the dice and numbers and just roleplay. I find the core mechanic of creating combos with cards way more interesting than D&D battle mechanics (in a single turn combining 2 cards out of 10 gives me at least 45 different potential combos… idk what the math even does when you consider each card has a top and bottom option). High improv D&D and Gloomhaven are scratching fundamentally different itches, IMHO, though there’s a lot of surface-level overlap.
Brass: Birmingham doesn’t immediately strike me as scratching either itch. But it may be an entirely different itch for people who aren’t me. I’m not much a fan of network building games in general, though.
posted by brook horse at 5:56 PM on February 21, 2023 [3 favorites]
Brass: Birmingham doesn’t immediately strike me as scratching either itch. But it may be an entirely different itch for people who aren’t me. I’m not much a fan of network building games in general, though.
posted by brook horse at 5:56 PM on February 21, 2023 [3 favorites]
I recently calculated that any non-identical two-card play has 21 potential turn options. Also I estimated that I played like 300 hours of Gloomhaven.
posted by muddgirl at 6:12 PM on February 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by muddgirl at 6:12 PM on February 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
I play a lot of different games regularly, including a lot of one-offs because I have a crazy friend who is addicted to buying new cardboard and plays solo a few times so he's a really strong explainer. I have learned that I often enjoy the first time we play a new game, as we are all feeling it out and feeling wowed and/or proud by figuring out a particularly interesting mechanic. Then we play it again a couple more times and the better tacticians in my play group just start to mop the fucking floor with me. Luckily I don't mind losing since I really like spending time with my friends and nobody is an asshole about it.
In any case, Brass:B is a pretty good game. I have ZERO understanding of what makes it a #1 pick, however. Mostly I have minor residual rage at dark board + dim light + nighttime cottage gaming. I can think of a dozen other games I'd go to every time.
I have never tried Gloomhaven; it always struck me as looking like it would need at least as much set up time as play time which is just SUCH a DRAG. Also need consistency of play group which is a problem for us (we generally get 4ish out of a rotating 8-ish on any given game day). I also figured it looked like it would better run as a computer game although according to those above, maybe not. I CAN'T STAND board games that need a computer or tablet to operate. You want to play a computer game, play a computer game! there's an arkham horror variant that needs a tablet to interact with and it still requires about as much meatspace setup and cardboard management as the non computer version. Pfui!
Since I am up on this here soapbox, current favorites are The Gallerist and Space Base; the first for depth with an interesting and unique theme (art gallery management) and the second for ease of setup and teaching and game speed, as an excellent bit of mental floss between crunchier games.
oh, and finally, Fuck Werewolf and all its ilk.
posted by hearthpig at 5:15 AM on February 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
In any case, Brass:B is a pretty good game. I have ZERO understanding of what makes it a #1 pick, however. Mostly I have minor residual rage at dark board + dim light + nighttime cottage gaming. I can think of a dozen other games I'd go to every time.
I have never tried Gloomhaven; it always struck me as looking like it would need at least as much set up time as play time which is just SUCH a DRAG. Also need consistency of play group which is a problem for us (we generally get 4ish out of a rotating 8-ish on any given game day). I also figured it looked like it would better run as a computer game although according to those above, maybe not. I CAN'T STAND board games that need a computer or tablet to operate. You want to play a computer game, play a computer game! there's an arkham horror variant that needs a tablet to interact with and it still requires about as much meatspace setup and cardboard management as the non computer version. Pfui!
Since I am up on this here soapbox, current favorites are The Gallerist and Space Base; the first for depth with an interesting and unique theme (art gallery management) and the second for ease of setup and teaching and game speed, as an excellent bit of mental floss between crunchier games.
oh, and finally, Fuck Werewolf and all its ilk.
posted by hearthpig at 5:15 AM on February 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
BGG rankings are a pretty big point of contention in our group, but as the person who discounts them the most ALSO only refers Agricola as "Misery Farm", I tend to discount his opinions pretty heavily.
posted by hwyengr at 7:18 AM on February 22, 2023
posted by hwyengr at 7:18 AM on February 22, 2023
Mostly I have minor residual rage at dark board + dim light + nighttime cottage gaming.
Flip the board over! The other side is the daytime side, with much brighter colours, and the difference is just cosmetic.
posted by Dysk at 7:43 AM on February 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
Flip the board over! The other side is the daytime side, with much brighter colours, and the difference is just cosmetic.
posted by Dysk at 7:43 AM on February 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
My partner and I tried so hard to get into Gloomhaven. We played, I'd guess, about a dozen sessions; the first few were mostly a series of consulting the rulebook every two minutes just trying to get a handle on what we were supposed to be doing with all these bits of cardboard, which ok fine... But even after we sort of figured out the mechanics I never felt like we really understood how to play. Every turn felt like an exercise in guesswork instead of strategy -- the person above who described it as more of a logic puzzle than an adventure game was on to something, I think, and I never quite figured out the logic.
When the digital version showed up as one of the free games-of-the-week on Epic, I got really excited: now I can stop being distracted by all the cardboard bits, let the computer do all that busywork, so I can finally focus on learning how the game itself is supposed to work! It took about a half hour of play on the computer to realize the busywork and tactility of all those cardboard bits and maps and cards were the only thing that had kept us going as long as we had; shorn of that it, there just wasn't much appeal for me at all. Maybe it would have finally 'clicked' if I'd pounded my head against it a while longer, but by that point I was tired of spending my recreational time Not Getting It.
posted by ook at 8:01 AM on February 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
When the digital version showed up as one of the free games-of-the-week on Epic, I got really excited: now I can stop being distracted by all the cardboard bits, let the computer do all that busywork, so I can finally focus on learning how the game itself is supposed to work! It took about a half hour of play on the computer to realize the busywork and tactility of all those cardboard bits and maps and cards were the only thing that had kept us going as long as we had; shorn of that it, there just wasn't much appeal for me at all. Maybe it would have finally 'clicked' if I'd pounded my head against it a while longer, but by that point I was tired of spending my recreational time Not Getting It.
posted by ook at 8:01 AM on February 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
Agricola is a mysery farm for me too 😂 the whole genre of "resource engine" games doesn't work for my brain, but ever since, I don't know, maybe Power Grid, these are the games that Real Boardgames like.
posted by muddgirl at 8:03 AM on February 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by muddgirl at 8:03 AM on February 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
I also approve of "Misery Farm" for Agricola. My friends and I call it "starving peasants".
posted by Nec_variat_lux_fracta_colorem at 2:37 PM on February 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Nec_variat_lux_fracta_colorem at 2:37 PM on February 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
As an OG Eurogamer...
Nice to see an OG game replace the KS/Legacy genre.
Tigris still should be #1
posted by Windopaene at 4:08 PM on February 23, 2023
Nice to see an OG game replace the KS/Legacy genre.
Tigris still should be #1
posted by Windopaene at 4:08 PM on February 23, 2023
I love the Steam version of Gloomhaven and have a few games running periodically with different groups of friends, some local, some not. I really appreciate that you can dial the difficulty up or down, and doing so really helped us finally figure out how to actually work together well to kick serious ass and just have fun!
I've played the Jaws of the Lion and found that really well structured as an intro to the game - started with a few rules at a time instead of all of them.
I also do like Wildermyth, although I'm not yet clear how much actual tactics matters in the combats, I just enjoy the story stuff.
I really miss the pre-COVID days of boardgame nights: we still do them but they tend to be much smaller affairs with specific goals. Right now we're working on 7th Continent, and I'm happily enjoying the fact that my friend who is a QA engineer is a great explainer and remembers some of the more fiddly things that I constantly forget.
posted by canine epigram at 10:28 PM on February 24, 2023
I've played the Jaws of the Lion and found that really well structured as an intro to the game - started with a few rules at a time instead of all of them.
I also do like Wildermyth, although I'm not yet clear how much actual tactics matters in the combats, I just enjoy the story stuff.
I really miss the pre-COVID days of boardgame nights: we still do them but they tend to be much smaller affairs with specific goals. Right now we're working on 7th Continent, and I'm happily enjoying the fact that my friend who is a QA engineer is a great explainer and remembers some of the more fiddly things that I constantly forget.
posted by canine epigram at 10:28 PM on February 24, 2023
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BrassB though is great, not that these lists 'matter', but hopefully this drives more folks to check it out as well as Brass(original recipe). They are such taut, beautiful games. With the right crew they really sing.
posted by Carillon at 8:12 AM on February 21, 2023 [3 favorites]