Food allergens malicious compliance
April 14, 2023 11:23 AM Subscribe
[...] a law intended to safeguard the more than 1.5 million Americans with a sesame allergy [...] [the law] mandates, among other things, careful cleaning to prevent cross-contact between food products with and without sesame. In a twist few would have expected, however, many food companies have chosen to add small amounts of sesame flour to products that were previously sesame-free, instead of conducting the careful cleaning required for foods without sesame.
Unfortunately, this has been happening since 2016: Company will Add Trace Amount of Allergen to All Products to Skirt Safety Regulation
Unfortunately, this has been happening since 2016: Company will Add Trace Amount of Allergen to All Products to Skirt Safety Regulation
It seems like the problem with the law is not allowing labeling that says something like produced in a location where sesame is present, which appears for other allergens on many products, though maybe not necessarily ones produced in the US. Then there is clear labeling, no incentive to add allergens to food, and people with allergies that are less severe can continue to eat things that might have trace contamination. It seems like whoever was making this law should have done more research about how companies would comply. I think labeling is very important, but this is clearly not a good outcome.
posted by snofoam at 11:45 AM on April 14, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by snofoam at 11:45 AM on April 14, 2023 [5 favorites]
As someone with friends with food allergies, and the horrible shit I've read up on what can happen with them, I'm totally furious. This is disgusting.
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:55 AM on April 14, 2023 [21 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:55 AM on April 14, 2023 [21 favorites]
The law does not prohibit companies from putting voluntary allergen advisory labeling like "may contain sesame" or "made on shared equipment with sesame" on foods, snofoam. It merely states that using that sort of labeling does not allow companies to avoid following mandatory food safety rules for handling sesame as a top allergen. The same rules already apply to handling and labeling for the other top allergens recognized in the top nine. Sesame is not being treated differently than those other allergens.
posted by BlueJae at 11:57 AM on April 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by BlueJae at 11:57 AM on April 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
Do manufacturers use this tactic with other top allergens too? Looks like they do.
I'm tempted to say we should just have a "may contain X" safe harbor, but of course the danger there is that manufacturers will all take the safe harbor and no one will make allergy-safe foods.
To really assess the impact of the various options I guess we need to know more than "some manufacturers will add superfluous allergens to avoid the burden of allergy-safe processes." Some amount of perverse avoidance behavior could in principle be part of the best overall regulatory regime.
posted by grobstein at 12:03 PM on April 14, 2023
I'm tempted to say we should just have a "may contain X" safe harbor, but of course the danger there is that manufacturers will all take the safe harbor and no one will make allergy-safe foods.
To really assess the impact of the various options I guess we need to know more than "some manufacturers will add superfluous allergens to avoid the burden of allergy-safe processes." Some amount of perverse avoidance behavior could in principle be part of the best overall regulatory regime.
posted by grobstein at 12:03 PM on April 14, 2023
This is what the FDA has to say about allergen advisory labels like "may contain," from the FDA website. Please note that the rules are the same for ALL TOP ALLERGENS. The food safety rules are not different for sesame. It's just that a certain set of companies that didn't previously have to worry about following food safety rules for sesame have decided that they would literally rather make all of their products poisonous to people with sesame allergy than start worrying about following food safety rules about cleaning and allergen segregation to keep people with sesame allergy safe.
FDA verbiage below:
"Consumers may also see advisory statements such as 'may contain [allergen]' or 'produced in a facility that also uses [allergen].' Such statements are not required by law and can be used to address unavoidable 'cross-contact,' only if manufacturers have incorporated good manufacturing processes in their facility and have taken every precaution to avoid cross-contact that can occur when multiple foods with different allergen profiles are produced in the same facility using shared equipment or on the same production line, as the result of ineffective cleaning, or from the generation of dust or aerosols containing an allergen.
FDA guidance and regulations for the food industry states that advisory statements should not be used as a substitute for adhering to current good manufacturing practices and must be truthful and not misleading."
posted by BlueJae at 12:05 PM on April 14, 2023 [7 favorites]
FDA verbiage below:
"Consumers may also see advisory statements such as 'may contain [allergen]' or 'produced in a facility that also uses [allergen].' Such statements are not required by law and can be used to address unavoidable 'cross-contact,' only if manufacturers have incorporated good manufacturing processes in their facility and have taken every precaution to avoid cross-contact that can occur when multiple foods with different allergen profiles are produced in the same facility using shared equipment or on the same production line, as the result of ineffective cleaning, or from the generation of dust or aerosols containing an allergen.
FDA guidance and regulations for the food industry states that advisory statements should not be used as a substitute for adhering to current good manufacturing practices and must be truthful and not misleading."
posted by BlueJae at 12:05 PM on April 14, 2023 [7 favorites]
Just when I think things can't be any more shitty than they already are ... Thanks for this post, OP. I am glad to know about the situation, however enraging I find it.
posted by Bella Donna at 12:21 PM on April 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Bella Donna at 12:21 PM on April 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
How did people with severe food allergies interpret "may contain [allergen]" before? It seems like you would be just rolling the dice if that allergen was there or not.
And good luck if you have a sensitivity to something that's uncommon enough to not even merit the "may contain" verbiage.
posted by meowzilla at 12:23 PM on April 14, 2023 [4 favorites]
And good luck if you have a sensitivity to something that's uncommon enough to not even merit the "may contain" verbiage.
posted by meowzilla at 12:23 PM on April 14, 2023 [4 favorites]
Upton Sinclair still rhymes with Corporations That Don't Care.
posted by riverlife at 12:24 PM on April 14, 2023 [20 favorites]
posted by riverlife at 12:24 PM on April 14, 2023 [20 favorites]
And yes, companies have already been doing this shady thing with other allergens, peanut in particular.
And in the case of enormous corporate food producers such as those mentioned in this article, it's not because they CAN'T follow food safety rules; it's because they don't want to make the effort. They don't want to spend any money or energy on upgrading equipment or retraining workers or paying workers to spend additional time cleaning equipment.
Of course, there are a number of other cheap, easy ways to deal with this food safety challenge that many companies could reasonably consider that would not require them to revamp their whole production process. They could consider dropping sesame from some or all of their products to avoid having to use shared lines. (It's not like sesame is widely considered the most important component of bread. I doubt most people would even notice if sesame seeds disappeared from their hamburger buns.) They could run different products on alternate days, with cleaning in between. They could make bread without sesame in one of their factories, and bread with sesame at a different factory. Etc., etc.
That a whole host of companies is choosing to do this instead is clearly meant to send a political message. Nice food safety law you have there, US government. Shame if we decided to make our food dangerous to thousands of people to circumvent it.
The thing is, the US is behind the curve on food allergen safety and labeling. A lot of other countries recognize 10 or 12 or 14 top allergens. Sesame has been added; corporate food producers are worried that mustard or celery or sulfites could come next. Plus the law only technically covers FDA-regulated foods. Congress might even decide that USDA regulated foods should be covered by allergen labeling rules, too. Or ALCOHOLIC BEVERAGES, even. We might start requiring restaurants to disclose allergens nationwide, just like they do in Europe!
And what if it goes beyond allergen control to other food safety improvements?
That's what the industry is worried about. That this is the first step to us catching up to the rest of the world on food safety rules. So they've thrown a gauntlet and they don't care how many four-year-old kids wind up blue faced and unconscious in the ER after eating a kid's meal.
posted by BlueJae at 12:25 PM on April 14, 2023 [23 favorites]
And in the case of enormous corporate food producers such as those mentioned in this article, it's not because they CAN'T follow food safety rules; it's because they don't want to make the effort. They don't want to spend any money or energy on upgrading equipment or retraining workers or paying workers to spend additional time cleaning equipment.
Of course, there are a number of other cheap, easy ways to deal with this food safety challenge that many companies could reasonably consider that would not require them to revamp their whole production process. They could consider dropping sesame from some or all of their products to avoid having to use shared lines. (It's not like sesame is widely considered the most important component of bread. I doubt most people would even notice if sesame seeds disappeared from their hamburger buns.) They could run different products on alternate days, with cleaning in between. They could make bread without sesame in one of their factories, and bread with sesame at a different factory. Etc., etc.
That a whole host of companies is choosing to do this instead is clearly meant to send a political message. Nice food safety law you have there, US government. Shame if we decided to make our food dangerous to thousands of people to circumvent it.
The thing is, the US is behind the curve on food allergen safety and labeling. A lot of other countries recognize 10 or 12 or 14 top allergens. Sesame has been added; corporate food producers are worried that mustard or celery or sulfites could come next. Plus the law only technically covers FDA-regulated foods. Congress might even decide that USDA regulated foods should be covered by allergen labeling rules, too. Or ALCOHOLIC BEVERAGES, even. We might start requiring restaurants to disclose allergens nationwide, just like they do in Europe!
And what if it goes beyond allergen control to other food safety improvements?
That's what the industry is worried about. That this is the first step to us catching up to the rest of the world on food safety rules. So they've thrown a gauntlet and they don't care how many four-year-old kids wind up blue faced and unconscious in the ER after eating a kid's meal.
posted by BlueJae at 12:25 PM on April 14, 2023 [23 favorites]
How did people with severe food allergies interpret "may contain [allergen]" before? It seems like you would be just rolling the dice if that allergen was there or not.
I can't eat gluten, though it's thankfully not anaphylactic, and it is basically exactly this. I am willing to roll that dice once to see if I can actually manage it, since I find something that for something labelled "may contain" that sometimes means it was processed on the same equipment as a crumb-y gluten containing product, which will mean I'll have a persistent and uncontrollable (doesn't respond to painkillers) headache for 12 hours or gastro issues sometimes (which sucks) but sometimes it's just been in the same area as something containing gluten which isn't a problem. This gamble for me (YMMV!!!) is worth it to expand the possibilities of what I can eat.
For instance, Ritter Sport bars are all marked may contain but through this experimentation I have determined that anything with chunks in it (peanuts, raisins) is going to give me a headache and anything with a filling (peppermint, coconut) will be fine; I guess they're tumbling the non-gluten-y chunk ingredients on the same equipment as the gluten-y chunk fillings, so it's a no go for me. I spend too much time thinking about what products a company might make in the same factory/how food is made to make these educated dice rolls.
I think people with anaphylactic reactions or worse reactions than I have tend to just avoid anything with "may contain" altogether, but it also makes an issue for school snacks for people with kids where those allergens are verboten if companies are just straight up adding this stuff to their products on purpose. Super annoying.
posted by urbanlenny at 12:35 PM on April 14, 2023 [13 favorites]
I can't eat gluten, though it's thankfully not anaphylactic, and it is basically exactly this. I am willing to roll that dice once to see if I can actually manage it, since I find something that for something labelled "may contain" that sometimes means it was processed on the same equipment as a crumb-y gluten containing product, which will mean I'll have a persistent and uncontrollable (doesn't respond to painkillers) headache for 12 hours or gastro issues sometimes (which sucks) but sometimes it's just been in the same area as something containing gluten which isn't a problem. This gamble for me (YMMV!!!) is worth it to expand the possibilities of what I can eat.
For instance, Ritter Sport bars are all marked may contain but through this experimentation I have determined that anything with chunks in it (peanuts, raisins) is going to give me a headache and anything with a filling (peppermint, coconut) will be fine; I guess they're tumbling the non-gluten-y chunk ingredients on the same equipment as the gluten-y chunk fillings, so it's a no go for me. I spend too much time thinking about what products a company might make in the same factory/how food is made to make these educated dice rolls.
I think people with anaphylactic reactions or worse reactions than I have tend to just avoid anything with "may contain" altogether, but it also makes an issue for school snacks for people with kids where those allergens are verboten if companies are just straight up adding this stuff to their products on purpose. Super annoying.
posted by urbanlenny at 12:35 PM on April 14, 2023 [13 favorites]
> In a twist few would have expected
I would LOVE to know who the non-few are exactly, because anyone with even half an ounce of common sense could have seen this coming. I find the idea that FDA, particularly, didn't see this as a possible result to be absolutely hilarious. (Not saying they didn't, but that's certainly the implication.)
I certainly empathize with those with food allergies who are now precluded from eating things they previously could. But mass manufacturing is always going to be about the lowest common denominator as much as possible. I'm sure you will see niche and smaller manufacturers popping up to cover some of the gap, just like you have with gluten-free. And depending on how widespread this particular allergy is (I haven't looked into it at all) we might end up with "sesame-free" as a denotation on a menu for certain items, like we now see "gluten-free."
posted by tubedogg at 1:01 PM on April 14, 2023 [6 favorites]
I would LOVE to know who the non-few are exactly, because anyone with even half an ounce of common sense could have seen this coming. I find the idea that FDA, particularly, didn't see this as a possible result to be absolutely hilarious. (Not saying they didn't, but that's certainly the implication.)
I certainly empathize with those with food allergies who are now precluded from eating things they previously could. But mass manufacturing is always going to be about the lowest common denominator as much as possible. I'm sure you will see niche and smaller manufacturers popping up to cover some of the gap, just like you have with gluten-free. And depending on how widespread this particular allergy is (I haven't looked into it at all) we might end up with "sesame-free" as a denotation on a menu for certain items, like we now see "gluten-free."
posted by tubedogg at 1:01 PM on April 14, 2023 [6 favorites]
Proof once again that while this may not truly BE the worse timeline, we have an awful lot of folks who are trying hard to get us into that position.
posted by caution live frogs at 1:07 PM on April 14, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by caution live frogs at 1:07 PM on April 14, 2023 [9 favorites]
Per the article: “There was no hint that this would happen, because companies had not done this with the other eight allergens [specified in federal law], and this isn’t happening in other countries that label for sesame,” said Sen. Chris Murphy (D-Conn.), one of the bill’s co-sponsors."
posted by jenfullmoon at 1:13 PM on April 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 1:13 PM on April 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
Companies were given a choice:
posted by saeculorum at 1:15 PM on April 14, 2023 [13 favorites]
- increase their product cost by increasing manufacturing costs, and pass along that product cost to consumers, and end up with a (potentially) less allergen-free product
- alter their product in a tiny way, keep the same cost, and keep the same price to consumers.
posted by saeculorum at 1:15 PM on April 14, 2023 [13 favorites]
Google tells me 0.23% of people have a sesame allergy. Did the FDA really think that companies would increase their product cost to make their product more appealing to 0.23% of people? I
I'll go the other direction: 0.23% of people actually want sesame seed buns in the first place.
posted by pwnguin at 1:19 PM on April 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'll go the other direction: 0.23% of people actually want sesame seed buns in the first place.
posted by pwnguin at 1:19 PM on April 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
Well Mr. Food Industry Executive, before this revolver might not have had any bullets in it. But now we're going to label it as "contains bullet." Spin, click, click, click.
posted by JDHarper at 1:20 PM on April 14, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by JDHarper at 1:20 PM on April 14, 2023 [7 favorites]
I think people with anaphylactic reactions or worse reactions than I have tend to just avoid anything with "may contain" altogether,
Spirulina gives me anaphylactic reactions (thankfully, this has only ever happened twice), but I've since learned that I can eat trace amounts of the stuff and be fine. I still avoid it whenever possible, though; being aware of where it's most likely to show up has helped.
I can't imagine having a more common food allergy, like sesame, with similar severe reactions. Agreed that it is super annoying.
posted by May Kasahara at 1:24 PM on April 14, 2023
Spirulina gives me anaphylactic reactions (thankfully, this has only ever happened twice), but I've since learned that I can eat trace amounts of the stuff and be fine. I still avoid it whenever possible, though; being aware of where it's most likely to show up has helped.
I can't imagine having a more common food allergy, like sesame, with similar severe reactions. Agreed that it is super annoying.
posted by May Kasahara at 1:24 PM on April 14, 2023
Gah! As someone with bad food allergies and the parent of someone with celiac disease, this is enraging.
posted by doctornemo at 1:28 PM on April 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by doctornemo at 1:28 PM on April 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
I want more inside baseball about what compliance would entail! I imagine it’s just about the bottom line, but I’d like to know, especially given the corporations that have decided complying is affordable.
posted by Going To Maine at 1:31 PM on April 14, 2023
posted by Going To Maine at 1:31 PM on April 14, 2023
Adding to my above about may contains, this kind of experiment has taught me never to eat a small business's gluten-free baked goods made on the same equipment as gluten-y baked goods unless they have a very proactively explained and strict approach to doing this (eg make the GF stuff first thing in the day after the space has been thoroughly de-glutened, with different equipment where possible or in a different part of their kitchen). Oh the days that have been ruined by optimism!
It has also taught me that I will always - like 99.99999% of the time - get a terrible day-ruining headache if I eat breakfast/brunch at a place that also serves pancakes, no matter how much I choose stuff that isn't made on a flat top, like poached eggs, and it's not even worth trying. It's sometimes less like dice-rolling and more like Russian roulette.
posted by urbanlenny at 1:37 PM on April 14, 2023 [9 favorites]
It has also taught me that I will always - like 99.99999% of the time - get a terrible day-ruining headache if I eat breakfast/brunch at a place that also serves pancakes, no matter how much I choose stuff that isn't made on a flat top, like poached eggs, and it's not even worth trying. It's sometimes less like dice-rolling and more like Russian roulette.
posted by urbanlenny at 1:37 PM on April 14, 2023 [9 favorites]
If so, I would suggest that folks in this thread should direct their ire to the incompetency of regulators as opposed to the companies themselves.
Arguing that regulators are more responsible for defeating every attempt at gamesmanship than the corporations are for gaming relentlessly is...a way of thinking about it, I guess.
At the same time, some folks are being awfully flippant about the disposability of an ingredient that is very important in certain non-European cuisines.
posted by praemunire at 1:39 PM on April 14, 2023 [21 favorites]
Arguing that regulators are more responsible for defeating every attempt at gamesmanship than the corporations are for gaming relentlessly is...a way of thinking about it, I guess.
At the same time, some folks are being awfully flippant about the disposability of an ingredient that is very important in certain non-European cuisines.
posted by praemunire at 1:39 PM on April 14, 2023 [21 favorites]
Seems like if an existing product has been reformulated to contain an ingredient classified as a major allergen that it previously didn't contain, it should at least have to display that information very prominently on the packaging.
In a better world the FDA would put out a PSA naming and shaming these companies. "Many companies have knowingly been adding allergens to their products. If you or your child are allergic to sesame, be aware that the following products may no longer be safe."
posted by trig at 1:51 PM on April 14, 2023 [11 favorites]
In a better world the FDA would put out a PSA naming and shaming these companies. "Many companies have knowingly been adding allergens to their products. If you or your child are allergic to sesame, be aware that the following products may no longer be safe."
posted by trig at 1:51 PM on April 14, 2023 [11 favorites]
The Sen. Murphy quote raises two questions: what's different about sesame, and what's different about the US?
Is it the case that more stuff-without-allergen-X is made on lines that also handles X when X=sesame rather than when X=egg, for example?
Is it the case that other countries tend to have more factories each producing fewer things?
Is it that fewer people have severe allergies to sesame, so companies feel the demand is lower and their trade-off for increasing decontamination is higher? We have a little bit of info here: https://www.foodallergy.org/living-food-allergies/food-allergy-essentials/common-allergens/sesame gives the 0.23% number that's floated around this thread, and for some other allergens reports single-digit percentages of children.
Anyone seen a trustworthy source that sheds light?
posted by look upon my works progress administration at 2:04 PM on April 14, 2023 [5 favorites]
Is it the case that more stuff-without-allergen-X is made on lines that also handles X when X=sesame rather than when X=egg, for example?
Is it the case that other countries tend to have more factories each producing fewer things?
Is it that fewer people have severe allergies to sesame, so companies feel the demand is lower and their trade-off for increasing decontamination is higher? We have a little bit of info here: https://www.foodallergy.org/living-food-allergies/food-allergy-essentials/common-allergens/sesame gives the 0.23% number that's floated around this thread, and for some other allergens reports single-digit percentages of children.
Anyone seen a trustworthy source that sheds light?
posted by look upon my works progress administration at 2:04 PM on April 14, 2023 [5 favorites]
At the same time, some folks are being awfully flippant about the disposability of an ingredient that is very important in certain non-European cuisines.
No one has suggested removing the tahini from hummus or the sesame oil from sesame noodles. But sesame seeds are added to a number of products - like hamburger buns - for which they are somewhat superfluous.
I actually can see all sides here: I see why we want to increase the safety level of manufactured food. But I also understand how it's a significant added cost in a business that (unlike Canadian grocery retailing) isn't operating on huge margins.
I had my own, small-scale version of trying to balance needs when I recently was feeding a group of people who had different allergies/food intolerances, and some religious restrictions - and on a pretty short notice. I think I ended up deconstructing most of the meal: separate dishes consisting only of one or two ingredients, so that people could mix and match. We didn't have any of the things that could kill someone there, and the other things people could eat around. But it was definitely a case of "Well, A & B can eat that, and B & C can eat that, and A & D can eat this..."
posted by jb at 2:11 PM on April 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
No one has suggested removing the tahini from hummus or the sesame oil from sesame noodles. But sesame seeds are added to a number of products - like hamburger buns - for which they are somewhat superfluous.
I actually can see all sides here: I see why we want to increase the safety level of manufactured food. But I also understand how it's a significant added cost in a business that (unlike Canadian grocery retailing) isn't operating on huge margins.
I had my own, small-scale version of trying to balance needs when I recently was feeding a group of people who had different allergies/food intolerances, and some religious restrictions - and on a pretty short notice. I think I ended up deconstructing most of the meal: separate dishes consisting only of one or two ingredients, so that people could mix and match. We didn't have any of the things that could kill someone there, and the other things people could eat around. But it was definitely a case of "Well, A & B can eat that, and B & C can eat that, and A & D can eat this..."
posted by jb at 2:11 PM on April 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
it should at least have to display that information very prominently on the packaging.
A big bright sticker that says "Now with 33% MORE ALLERGENS!".
posted by meowzilla at 2:12 PM on April 14, 2023 [9 favorites]
A big bright sticker that says "Now with 33% MORE ALLERGENS!".
posted by meowzilla at 2:12 PM on April 14, 2023 [9 favorites]
At the same time, some folks are being awfully flippant about the disposability of an ingredient that is very important in certain non-European cuisines.
Even in the most sesame-loving cuisines, there are foods it traditionally features in and foods where it doesn't. This isn't about how important sesame is to halwa or to the best of all bagels. It's things like 1 or 2% of ground sesame suddenly added to American white bread, not in order to improve taste or texture but purely to skirt regulations. (And given the insultingly stingy quantities that sesame usually appears in on hamburger buns in the US, I feel like people can be forgiven for seeing that particular usage as disposable.)
posted by trig at 2:13 PM on April 14, 2023 [13 favorites]
Even in the most sesame-loving cuisines, there are foods it traditionally features in and foods where it doesn't. This isn't about how important sesame is to halwa or to the best of all bagels. It's things like 1 or 2% of ground sesame suddenly added to American white bread, not in order to improve taste or texture but purely to skirt regulations. (And given the insultingly stingy quantities that sesame usually appears in on hamburger buns in the US, I feel like people can be forgiven for seeing that particular usage as disposable.)
posted by trig at 2:13 PM on April 14, 2023 [13 favorites]
The Sen. Murphy quote raises two questions: what's different about sesame, and what's different about the US?
Or: what's different about the US in recent years.
posted by trig at 2:13 PM on April 14, 2023 [5 favorites]
Or: what's different about the US in recent years.
posted by trig at 2:13 PM on April 14, 2023 [5 favorites]
I would also like to know more about what’s different about sesame. I could see it being a lot easier to do a full clean or have separate machines filling up ramen seasoning packets to keep shrimp and chicken separate, compared to a whole industrial baking facility. But there must be lots of baking facilities that have some products with nuts.
posted by snofoam at 2:26 PM on April 14, 2023
posted by snofoam at 2:26 PM on April 14, 2023
In a better world the FDA would put out a PSA naming and shaming these companies.
Yes, well, in a perfect world the FDA would be adequately funded and staffed in order to actually do the job everyone here demands they do.
posted by Thorzdad at 3:06 PM on April 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
Yes, well, in a perfect world the FDA would be adequately funded and staffed in order to actually do the job everyone here demands they do.
posted by Thorzdad at 3:06 PM on April 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
I found out about this on Tuesday and, since Kiddo has tested positive for sesame allergy, checked all of the bread products recently purchased. The bagels he likes, the one brand of bagel that I've found that doesn't contain dairy, egg or nuts and is also not labeled as "may contain" or "made on shared equipment:" as any of these? One of the few things he likes eating for lunch? Now contains sesame flour. Thankfully he had not yet eaten any. The buns and bread I bought isn't sesame-infested but I'll need to check EVERY SINGLE TIME I buy any bread product in the future. (And no, the package did not have a label saying "Now Contains Sesame! Screw You Guys!")
I am absolutely livid about the casual cruelty of tossing in an unnecessary allergen just to get around cleaning or maintaining extra equipment. Guess I'm making my own bagels now.
posted by sencha at 3:10 PM on April 14, 2023 [26 favorites]
I am absolutely livid about the casual cruelty of tossing in an unnecessary allergen just to get around cleaning or maintaining extra equipment. Guess I'm making my own bagels now.
posted by sencha at 3:10 PM on April 14, 2023 [26 favorites]
I think it's probably less about sesame and more about 2023. Food manufacturing as an industry is absolutely unwilling to pay people at current market rates. Wasn't there just a huge expose about how many food factories are currently using undocumented child labor?
posted by potrzebie at 4:09 PM on April 14, 2023 [14 favorites]
posted by potrzebie at 4:09 PM on April 14, 2023 [14 favorites]
Similar situation here. My son has a serious (anaphylaxis) sesame allergy.
Every single fucking thing we used to use now has sesame. Every hamburger bun without sesame seeds now has sesame flour.
We can’t eat Wendy’s anymore because their bun manufacturer is doing the same..
All because these jackasses can’t guarantee that they clean the fucking equipment.
It doesn’t help that food manufacturers conflate things like low-allergen with gluten free. We (fortunately) don’t need gluten free, just no sesame or peanut.
(They add peanut flour to stuff too, but nothing like they did with this sesame change)
posted by Lord_Pall at 5:41 PM on April 14, 2023 [15 favorites]
Every single fucking thing we used to use now has sesame. Every hamburger bun without sesame seeds now has sesame flour.
We can’t eat Wendy’s anymore because their bun manufacturer is doing the same..
All because these jackasses can’t guarantee that they clean the fucking equipment.
It doesn’t help that food manufacturers conflate things like low-allergen with gluten free. We (fortunately) don’t need gluten free, just no sesame or peanut.
(They add peanut flour to stuff too, but nothing like they did with this sesame change)
posted by Lord_Pall at 5:41 PM on April 14, 2023 [15 favorites]
I'm not sure why people are shocked - Pan-O-Gold withdrawing from the non-sesame market is 100% inevitable, the same way introducing stricter emissions requirements for vehicles will eventually see the demise of the combustion engine.
Say in the baked goods space you have large companies like Pan-O-Gold who make sesame and non-sesame products, and you have smaller companies who purely make non-sesame products. Due to strict cleaning procedures, heavy fines and ruinous litigation that could arise from any errors in manufacturing, the cost to produce non-sesame products at Pan-O-Gold is going to be higher than it is for smaller companies who only make non-sesame products.
And consumers have already demonstrated they will choose the 10 cents cheaper option every time. There is no way for Pan-O-Gold to win, so their only logical move is to forgo the non-sesame market entirely.
Even worse... if Pan-O-Gold tried to compete in both markets (Sesame and Non-Sesame) they would actually lose at both, because they'd be competing with pure Sesame producers who don't need to pay for cleaning, and pure Non-Sesame producers who don't need to pay for cleaning. They would just end up going bankrupt and the board and shareholders will be rather annoyed at the CEO who made this moronic decision.
This is just specialization leading to efficiency and safety - companies which produce solely non-sesame products will have the market to themselves and consumers will enjoy a much safer product without any possibility of contamination.
Arguably this is exactly the result we want!
posted by xdvesper at 5:41 PM on April 14, 2023 [4 favorites]
Say in the baked goods space you have large companies like Pan-O-Gold who make sesame and non-sesame products, and you have smaller companies who purely make non-sesame products. Due to strict cleaning procedures, heavy fines and ruinous litigation that could arise from any errors in manufacturing, the cost to produce non-sesame products at Pan-O-Gold is going to be higher than it is for smaller companies who only make non-sesame products.
And consumers have already demonstrated they will choose the 10 cents cheaper option every time. There is no way for Pan-O-Gold to win, so their only logical move is to forgo the non-sesame market entirely.
Even worse... if Pan-O-Gold tried to compete in both markets (Sesame and Non-Sesame) they would actually lose at both, because they'd be competing with pure Sesame producers who don't need to pay for cleaning, and pure Non-Sesame producers who don't need to pay for cleaning. They would just end up going bankrupt and the board and shareholders will be rather annoyed at the CEO who made this moronic decision.
This is just specialization leading to efficiency and safety - companies which produce solely non-sesame products will have the market to themselves and consumers will enjoy a much safer product without any possibility of contamination.
Arguably this is exactly the result we want!
posted by xdvesper at 5:41 PM on April 14, 2023 [4 favorites]
Sidenote, I am thankful that there was some press coverage of this change or we would’ve stumbled completely into some serious allergic reactions.
posted by Lord_Pall at 5:43 PM on April 14, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by Lord_Pall at 5:43 PM on April 14, 2023 [8 favorites]
Kind of dumb question, but this must be a massive bonanza for the sesame industry, right? If all of these mass-market bakeries are suddenly adding 2% sesame flour to their bread-and-butter (no pun intended) products... that adds up to a lot of sesame.
posted by dusty potato at 6:10 PM on April 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by dusty potato at 6:10 PM on April 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
I’m not feeling better about producers who can’t promise they’ve completely cleaned the machinery regularly. Sesame here, mold there, E. coli a third place….
posted by clew at 8:14 PM on April 14, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by clew at 8:14 PM on April 14, 2023 [4 favorites]
would LOVE to know who the non-few are exactly, because anyone with even half an ounce of common sense could have seen this coming.
Maybe I'm just a country bumpkin but *raises hand*. And why 2% and not just a pinch? Surely the legal requirements kick in at a much lower fraction. 2% just seems punitive.
posted by Mitheral at 8:38 PM on April 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
Maybe I'm just a country bumpkin but *raises hand*. And why 2% and not just a pinch? Surely the legal requirements kick in at a much lower fraction. 2% just seems punitive.
posted by Mitheral at 8:38 PM on April 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
One the one hand, two real people in this thread that this directly impacts. On the other hand, a random figure of 0.23% pulled from the web. Well that’s just pre Covid thinking. In 2023 if it doesn’t have a case fatality rate above one or an effective reproduction number of at least two then everything is fine.
posted by zenon at 8:57 PM on April 14, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by zenon at 8:57 PM on April 14, 2023 [7 favorites]
Even in the most sesame-loving cuisines, there are foods it traditionally features in and foods where it doesn't. This isn't about how important sesame is to halwa or to the best of all bagels.
Along with the "this is cheap and easy to fix!" comments, it seems like maybe there is some limited understanding in this thread of how mass-produced food gets made, which is understandable as it's not really touched on much in the article itself. I'm not an expert myself and don't want to get too far over my skis, but so much food is made in large facilities with multiple product lines sharing some space or equipment that guaranteeing the absence of an allergen even in foods in which it normally plays no role at all can be quite tricky and expensive.
I feel awful for the families unknowingly "poisoning" their kids. In the end, though, Schroedinger's sesame can't be the correct labeling approach.
posted by praemunire at 9:55 PM on April 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
Along with the "this is cheap and easy to fix!" comments, it seems like maybe there is some limited understanding in this thread of how mass-produced food gets made, which is understandable as it's not really touched on much in the article itself. I'm not an expert myself and don't want to get too far over my skis, but so much food is made in large facilities with multiple product lines sharing some space or equipment that guaranteeing the absence of an allergen even in foods in which it normally plays no role at all can be quite tricky and expensive.
I feel awful for the families unknowingly "poisoning" their kids. In the end, though, Schroedinger's sesame can't be the correct labeling approach.
posted by praemunire at 9:55 PM on April 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
Xdvesper, gross profit margins in corporate America are 15.5%. Most companies don't cut costs to avoid bankruptcy, unless they have been leveraged to the hilt and loaded down with dept.
They cut costs to boost profits.
Replace "go bankrupt" with "produce less profit than CEOs with options would like".
posted by NotAYakk at 10:15 PM on April 14, 2023 [12 favorites]
They cut costs to boost profits.
Replace "go bankrupt" with "produce less profit than CEOs with options would like".
posted by NotAYakk at 10:15 PM on April 14, 2023 [12 favorites]
two real people in this thread that this directly impacts
At least three, in fact.
posted by clew at 11:19 PM on April 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
At least three, in fact.
posted by clew at 11:19 PM on April 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
> One the one hand, two real people in this thread that this directly impacts. On the other hand, a random figure of 0.23% pulled from the web.
Assuming the 0.23% figure is correct (I have no way of independently verifying it), should 99.77% of people pay extra for their food to cover the cost of cleaning that impacts the other 0.23%?
I don't think anybody is saying that people with sesame allergens should be viewed as expendable in the sense of intentionally causing them to become sick or pass away. That said, speaking as someone who still masks in public most of the time, comparing this with failing to take preventive measures against the spread of COVID, a very communicable disease, is not even a little bit the same thing. I am not going to cause someone to become allergic to sesame by purchasing bread that has sesame flour added to it for the sole purpose of avoiding costly cleaning regimes. Reduced choice sucks for those who are allergic. But everything comes at a cost to somebody, and at some point the larger group's needs (not further increasing food prices) outweigh the niche group's needs (larger pool of foods without sesame).
posted by tubedogg at 11:43 PM on April 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
Assuming the 0.23% figure is correct (I have no way of independently verifying it), should 99.77% of people pay extra for their food to cover the cost of cleaning that impacts the other 0.23%?
I don't think anybody is saying that people with sesame allergens should be viewed as expendable in the sense of intentionally causing them to become sick or pass away. That said, speaking as someone who still masks in public most of the time, comparing this with failing to take preventive measures against the spread of COVID, a very communicable disease, is not even a little bit the same thing. I am not going to cause someone to become allergic to sesame by purchasing bread that has sesame flour added to it for the sole purpose of avoiding costly cleaning regimes. Reduced choice sucks for those who are allergic. But everything comes at a cost to somebody, and at some point the larger group's needs (not further increasing food prices) outweigh the niche group's needs (larger pool of foods without sesame).
posted by tubedogg at 11:43 PM on April 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
There must be a number of people who haven’t developed this allergy only because they haven’t been sufficiently exposed to sesame, but now with this change they probably will be sufficiently exposed.
It will be interesting to see what happens to the 0.23% prevalence level of sesame allergy.
posted by jamjam at 11:47 PM on April 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
It will be interesting to see what happens to the 0.23% prevalence level of sesame allergy.
posted by jamjam at 11:47 PM on April 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
As someone with a cinnamon allergy, I would dearly love it if manufacturers would stop saying "spices" on their ingredients list, and instead say
"garlic, ginger, pepper" (or whatever the case may be).
Because "spices" means "it may well not contain cinnamon, but I can't risk it."
posted by chariot pulled by cassowaries at 12:08 AM on April 15, 2023 [11 favorites]
"garlic, ginger, pepper" (or whatever the case may be).
Because "spices" means "it may well not contain cinnamon, but I can't risk it."
posted by chariot pulled by cassowaries at 12:08 AM on April 15, 2023 [11 favorites]
Disheartening and sadly not surprising to see.
In the first article the lawmaker that was quoted seems to be saying that they didn’t anticipate this because this wasn’t the response to previous allergen labeling laws, though the second article indicates otherwise. The calculus on manufacturer side is probably the expense of decontamination vs. the cost of losing customers. Which makes me wonder:
1) what’s the relative portion of the population affected by the various allergens
2) is there something about sesame that makes it uniquely difficult to decontaminate
3) are there specialty allergen aware manufacturers that are competing for the same business
posted by pseudoinversedly at 12:54 AM on April 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
In the first article the lawmaker that was quoted seems to be saying that they didn’t anticipate this because this wasn’t the response to previous allergen labeling laws, though the second article indicates otherwise. The calculus on manufacturer side is probably the expense of decontamination vs. the cost of losing customers. Which makes me wonder:
1) what’s the relative portion of the population affected by the various allergens
2) is there something about sesame that makes it uniquely difficult to decontaminate
3) are there specialty allergen aware manufacturers that are competing for the same business
posted by pseudoinversedly at 12:54 AM on April 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
Xdvesper, gross profit margins in corporate America are 15.5%
Hah! If only we could live on gross profits. Unfortunately we also have to pay for overheads, rent, interest, and all those pesky things, bringing net profit down significantly.
NYU Stern publishes a per-sector breakdown of gross and net margins, this is for Jan 2023, during a time where corporate profits were decried as being at "all time highs".
Pan-O-Gold likely falls into one of the two following categories depending on how their operations are set up.
Food Wholesaling - Gross Margin 14.39%, Net Margin of 1.09%
Food Retailing - Gross Margin 24.71%, Net Margin of 1.96%
These are extremely competitive industries with very low barriers to entry, hence net profit margins are expected to be close to the rate of inflation, which is more or less break even.
I work in a very competitive industry as well and I'd say it's normal for us to launch 10 products and lose money on 7 of them.
posted by xdvesper at 1:52 AM on April 15, 2023 [6 favorites]
Hah! If only we could live on gross profits. Unfortunately we also have to pay for overheads, rent, interest, and all those pesky things, bringing net profit down significantly.
NYU Stern publishes a per-sector breakdown of gross and net margins, this is for Jan 2023, during a time where corporate profits were decried as being at "all time highs".
Pan-O-Gold likely falls into one of the two following categories depending on how their operations are set up.
Food Wholesaling - Gross Margin 14.39%, Net Margin of 1.09%
Food Retailing - Gross Margin 24.71%, Net Margin of 1.96%
These are extremely competitive industries with very low barriers to entry, hence net profit margins are expected to be close to the rate of inflation, which is more or less break even.
I work in a very competitive industry as well and I'd say it's normal for us to launch 10 products and lose money on 7 of them.
posted by xdvesper at 1:52 AM on April 15, 2023 [6 favorites]
>I’m not feeling better about producers who can’t promise they’ve completely cleaned the machinery regularly. Sesame here, mold there, E. coli a third place….
You can have very sterile machinery but still risk cross contamination.
Cleaning for mold and e.coli is different than preventing allergen cross contamination. Imagine two conveyor belts carrying bagels, side by side. Both can be cleaned meticulously every day or every hour, but while in operation one side carries sesame bagels and the other carries plain bagels. There's gonna be some dust or particles or whatever that occasionally float from one line to the other, and now you've got sesame in your plain bagel, but you're still safe from e.coli or mold.
The mitigation techniques are different for e.coli and allergen cross contamination.
posted by mrgoldenbrown at 6:38 AM on April 15, 2023 [7 favorites]
You can have very sterile machinery but still risk cross contamination.
Cleaning for mold and e.coli is different than preventing allergen cross contamination. Imagine two conveyor belts carrying bagels, side by side. Both can be cleaned meticulously every day or every hour, but while in operation one side carries sesame bagels and the other carries plain bagels. There's gonna be some dust or particles or whatever that occasionally float from one line to the other, and now you've got sesame in your plain bagel, but you're still safe from e.coli or mold.
The mitigation techniques are different for e.coli and allergen cross contamination.
posted by mrgoldenbrown at 6:38 AM on April 15, 2023 [7 favorites]
The dead hand of corporate evil requires clear-eyed punishment.
I believe that people are pretty good at doing the right thing when we can. Companies, though, are literally soulless profit-maximizers. Accounts payable never adds a tip for the waitstaff. Only people do that, yeah?
If companies continue to act right, we probably have good rules. We can allow some slack, to reduce the costs to all the people involved. The company is serving human needs because it is under human control.
But the spirit of the law cannot enforce itself, so closing loopholes is critical. If we want an industry to do the right thing, the costs to the company of harming people need to be matamatically overwhelming. So when a company twists a simple rule to a perverse result, it must be extremely obvious to the bosses in charge that this has been a foolish error.
So, we used to let bakers clean up sesame allergens when they switched to baking bread that had no sesame. That was the slack.
Adding allergens to all foods to avoid ever cleaning them up? Nah. No. Absolutely not. People will die.
The new rule is that you have to do an allergen clean every time you change from an allergenic product, even if both products contain the same allergens. If the old product contains major allergens, you clean up after it.
If this continues to be a problem for some companies, the rule can continue to become more strict. The company can be required to do an allergen clean for every product change, irrespective of the presence of major allergens. Honestly, I'm somewhat alarmed (but I guess not surprised) that cleaning standards for food factories aren't this stringent in the first place.
Anyway, install me as benevolent overlord. We've apparently had much worse.
posted by Richard Daly at 7:40 AM on April 15, 2023 [3 favorites]
I believe that people are pretty good at doing the right thing when we can. Companies, though, are literally soulless profit-maximizers. Accounts payable never adds a tip for the waitstaff. Only people do that, yeah?
If companies continue to act right, we probably have good rules. We can allow some slack, to reduce the costs to all the people involved. The company is serving human needs because it is under human control.
But the spirit of the law cannot enforce itself, so closing loopholes is critical. If we want an industry to do the right thing, the costs to the company of harming people need to be matamatically overwhelming. So when a company twists a simple rule to a perverse result, it must be extremely obvious to the bosses in charge that this has been a foolish error.
So, we used to let bakers clean up sesame allergens when they switched to baking bread that had no sesame. That was the slack.
Adding allergens to all foods to avoid ever cleaning them up? Nah. No. Absolutely not. People will die.
The new rule is that you have to do an allergen clean every time you change from an allergenic product, even if both products contain the same allergens. If the old product contains major allergens, you clean up after it.
If this continues to be a problem for some companies, the rule can continue to become more strict. The company can be required to do an allergen clean for every product change, irrespective of the presence of major allergens. Honestly, I'm somewhat alarmed (but I guess not surprised) that cleaning standards for food factories aren't this stringent in the first place.
Anyway, install me as benevolent overlord. We've apparently had much worse.
posted by Richard Daly at 7:40 AM on April 15, 2023 [3 favorites]
I have friends with some severe allergies and all of this willful addition of sesame or other allergens to skirt the laws totally stinks.
I've also been on the other side of the counter and working in the kitchen when someone with a peanut allergy asks about our kitchen and the frustrating answer is that no, unfortunately I absolutely cannot guarantee if a given menu item is free of trace amounts of peanuts or any other allergen.
Even very clean commercial restaurant kitchens are very chaotic. I have no idea if someone from the last shift brought in a jar of peanut butter and used kitchen utensils to make a whole loaf of sandwiches and smashed them into their face all day. We definitely have peanuts and peanut products in our stores and pantries, too.
Sure, you could institute strict policies about controls, banning all employee/outside food and separate storage rooms for things but most independent restaurants really don't have the labor, space or budget to do this right or safely, which is why most independent restaurants won't say "Yes, our kitchen and menu is peanut free!" because in cases of severe allergies there's almost no way to be sure unless that's one of the primary focuses of your restaurant and you're specifically trying to make food for people with severe allergies.
I did work at a resort/conference center kind of place with a huge kitchen and they were often able to cater to people with allergies during a large event.
But we needed to know about it well in advance and have a planned menu that worked so there was a custodial chain of the supplies and ingredients being safely stored in a cleared out part of the walk ins and pantries, and those menu items had to be prepared well in advance, the kitchen had to be extra extra clean and dedicated to produce those menu items, and then the items needed to be able to store well in their own controlled space and and safely and independently reheated before serving.
It was a huge, huge pain in the ass and a totally different challenge and thing than serving, say, a plant based or vegan menu segment along with an omni menu with animal products.
posted by loquacious at 12:50 PM on April 15, 2023 [11 favorites]
I've also been on the other side of the counter and working in the kitchen when someone with a peanut allergy asks about our kitchen and the frustrating answer is that no, unfortunately I absolutely cannot guarantee if a given menu item is free of trace amounts of peanuts or any other allergen.
Even very clean commercial restaurant kitchens are very chaotic. I have no idea if someone from the last shift brought in a jar of peanut butter and used kitchen utensils to make a whole loaf of sandwiches and smashed them into their face all day. We definitely have peanuts and peanut products in our stores and pantries, too.
Sure, you could institute strict policies about controls, banning all employee/outside food and separate storage rooms for things but most independent restaurants really don't have the labor, space or budget to do this right or safely, which is why most independent restaurants won't say "Yes, our kitchen and menu is peanut free!" because in cases of severe allergies there's almost no way to be sure unless that's one of the primary focuses of your restaurant and you're specifically trying to make food for people with severe allergies.
I did work at a resort/conference center kind of place with a huge kitchen and they were often able to cater to people with allergies during a large event.
But we needed to know about it well in advance and have a planned menu that worked so there was a custodial chain of the supplies and ingredients being safely stored in a cleared out part of the walk ins and pantries, and those menu items had to be prepared well in advance, the kitchen had to be extra extra clean and dedicated to produce those menu items, and then the items needed to be able to store well in their own controlled space and and safely and independently reheated before serving.
It was a huge, huge pain in the ass and a totally different challenge and thing than serving, say, a plant based or vegan menu segment along with an omni menu with animal products.
posted by loquacious at 12:50 PM on April 15, 2023 [11 favorites]
One thing to point out here: they weren't making most people with this allergy sick before January, even though they didn't meet the new cross-contamination standards. The problem is the rule that they must add the ingredient, which I think is just obviously dumb. Why does that rule exist? Because if you let them get away with a "may contain sesame" message, everyone would just do that because it's free. So fix that problem instead of trying to paper it over with more regulations.
For example, you could charge an allergen registration fee. Make standards for completely allergen free, may-contain, hidden allergen containing, and obvious allergen containing, and how much each category costs. Design it so there's an incentive to go allergen free without punishing non-allergic customers, and adjust the fees until there's good availability of allergen-free products. Use the money to make a national register of allergens in products, so you can just point your phone at the bar code to know if it's OK.
posted by netowl at 5:11 PM on April 15, 2023
For example, you could charge an allergen registration fee. Make standards for completely allergen free, may-contain, hidden allergen containing, and obvious allergen containing, and how much each category costs. Design it so there's an incentive to go allergen free without punishing non-allergic customers, and adjust the fees until there's good availability of allergen-free products. Use the money to make a national register of allergens in products, so you can just point your phone at the bar code to know if it's OK.
posted by netowl at 5:11 PM on April 15, 2023
Counterpoint, why shouldn't they do this, they are not a charity.
posted by gallagho at 3:37 AM on April 18, 2023
posted by gallagho at 3:37 AM on April 18, 2023
"Am I a charity? Am I the state?" -Ebenezer Scrooge.
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:21 AM on April 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:21 AM on April 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
They're not a charity, they're capitalists. And the thing with capitalists is that, unless STRICTLY regulated, capitalists will sell anything to anyone to maximize profits. This means they would supply a market with butchered human flesh if they weren't legally prohibited.
posted by mikelieman at 2:36 PM on April 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by mikelieman at 2:36 PM on April 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
xdvesper, thank you for posting that info about net profit margins. I was trying to put together a coherent argument but didn't have the ability to source the detail to back it up. Anecdotally, which admittedly doesn't prove anything, I have always understood food businesses like that to have very low net profit margins.
One thing I would point out is that, even if we are looking at gross profit margin (which I very much agree is the wrong number to look at), that average includes companies like Apple at something like 42%. So depending on how the average is computed--if it's "gross profit $ of all companies divided by revenue $ of all companies," instead of "gross profit margin percentage per company added up & divided by number of companies"--it's possible it's skewed upwards due to e.g. Apple having a disproportionate share of revenue with a much higher gross profit margin than is typical.
posted by tubedogg at 9:52 PM on April 21, 2023
One thing I would point out is that, even if we are looking at gross profit margin (which I very much agree is the wrong number to look at), that average includes companies like Apple at something like 42%. So depending on how the average is computed--if it's "gross profit $ of all companies divided by revenue $ of all companies," instead of "gross profit margin percentage per company added up & divided by number of companies"--it's possible it's skewed upwards due to e.g. Apple having a disproportionate share of revenue with a much higher gross profit margin than is typical.
posted by tubedogg at 9:52 PM on April 21, 2023
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posted by away for regrooving at 11:35 AM on April 14, 2023 [36 favorites]