A Club For The Cancelled
May 23, 2023 10:55 AM Subscribe
Meet The Gathering of Thought Criminals - a gathering of various people who gather to "have discussions they feel they can’t have anywhere else." (SLNew Yorker)
Christ, what a bag of assholes
posted by Jon_Evil at 11:00 AM on May 23, 2023 [34 favorites]
posted by Jon_Evil at 11:00 AM on May 23, 2023 [34 favorites]
The original New York Times story about Solveig Gold and her creepy husband is one of the most hilarious things I've ever read, seeing her pop up in this piece gave me a good laugh!
posted by cakelite at 11:03 AM on May 23, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by cakelite at 11:03 AM on May 23, 2023 [5 favorites]
So yeah, this is posted as a demonstration of how twisted our discourse on free speech has become, especially around the preferred first speaker fallacy. It doesn't help that the author is way too credulous, with lines like:
But the big thing for me is the last line, where the person running all this says "but don't even criminals deserve to be loved by someone?" To which my response is one made by feminist Jessica Valenti - you are not owed friends, nor a good name. And this has become a major point of warping in our discourse on free speech, because you have people who argue that free speech requires people to hold their own opinions - a position that is deeply anti-free speech. Free speech says you get to say what you want - you just have to be able to live with the consequences. And it should not be surprising that communities built on evading personal consequences attract predators and abusers, as the article shows.
posted by NoxAeternum at 11:10 AM on May 23, 2023 [101 favorites]
In 2022, (former professor Joshua) Katz was fired from Princeton after the university said that, among other things, he had not been fully honest and coöperative during an investigation into a consensual sexual relationship that he had with another student in 2006 and 2007.That's not quite what happened - turns out that said relationship (which, mind you, was with a student directly under his instruction) was a lot less "consentual" to the student, and that he had forced her to not engage in the original investigation. Last I checked, we call that witness tampering.
But the big thing for me is the last line, where the person running all this says "but don't even criminals deserve to be loved by someone?" To which my response is one made by feminist Jessica Valenti - you are not owed friends, nor a good name. And this has become a major point of warping in our discourse on free speech, because you have people who argue that free speech requires people to hold their own opinions - a position that is deeply anti-free speech. Free speech says you get to say what you want - you just have to be able to live with the consequences. And it should not be surprising that communities built on evading personal consequences attract predators and abusers, as the article shows.
posted by NoxAeternum at 11:10 AM on May 23, 2023 [101 favorites]
"The Insufferables" would maybe be a better name for this club.
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 11:14 AM on May 23, 2023 [19 favorites]
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 11:14 AM on May 23, 2023 [19 favorites]
Let me know when they're actually in jail, I'll be more concerned about the title "criminal." Especially considering society's pattern of jailing "the other."
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 11:14 AM on May 23, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 11:14 AM on May 23, 2023 [11 favorites]
Presumably a representative from the local Klan chapter was there handing out business cards.
posted by fight or flight at 11:15 AM on May 23, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by fight or flight at 11:15 AM on May 23, 2023 [5 favorites]
Also I have a friend who plays at Marie's Crisis from time to time. I wonder if he knows any of these assholes.
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 11:22 AM on May 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 11:22 AM on May 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
Sitting next to her was a woman named Kim Jones, whose daughter is a Yale swimmer who lost to the transgender athlete Lia Thomas in competition last year. Jones co-founded an organization called icons, the Independent Council on Women’s Sports, which advocates for what Jones sees as the rights of female athletes—including the principle that transgender women, whom she calls “male athletes,” should not be eligible to compete in women’s sports.
If you're so upset that your precious daughter lost a swim meet that you form an organization to intentionally misgender people and argue that a group of women should be banned from her sport, at least have the courage to call your group by the correct acronym: ICOWS, not ICONS.
posted by The Bellman at 11:27 AM on May 23, 2023 [58 favorites]
If you're so upset that your precious daughter lost a swim meet that you form an organization to intentionally misgender people and argue that a group of women should be banned from her sport, at least have the courage to call your group by the correct acronym: ICOWS, not ICONS.
posted by The Bellman at 11:27 AM on May 23, 2023 [58 favorites]
Surprised Jones wasn't interviewed for this one.
posted by gottabefunky at 11:29 AM on May 23, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by gottabefunky at 11:29 AM on May 23, 2023 [3 favorites]
You have to wonder who knows who behind the scenes. Who at the New Yorker is buddies with these people? Who at the New Yorker is on the infamous email list of anti-trans journalists? Who has friends who are white nationalist GOPers? Whose family money comes from dubious sources?
This stuff doesn't happen by accident or because the editors are stupid; it happens because all these people know each other from rich people stuff. That's how the TERFs control the UK Guardian and get so much media - rich, well-connected white women with loathsome views smoothing each others' paths.
There's a lot of upscale media where the editors feel that they have to pretend to be somewhat socially liberal to get over with their audience and make the dinner parties but who are actually quite dedicated to a far right agenda.
posted by Frowner at 11:30 AM on May 23, 2023 [107 favorites]
This stuff doesn't happen by accident or because the editors are stupid; it happens because all these people know each other from rich people stuff. That's how the TERFs control the UK Guardian and get so much media - rich, well-connected white women with loathsome views smoothing each others' paths.
There's a lot of upscale media where the editors feel that they have to pretend to be somewhat socially liberal to get over with their audience and make the dinner parties but who are actually quite dedicated to a far right agenda.
posted by Frowner at 11:30 AM on May 23, 2023 [107 favorites]
Looks like a version of AA, A**holes Anonymous.
posted by indianbadger1 at 11:32 AM on May 23, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by indianbadger1 at 11:32 AM on May 23, 2023 [7 favorites]
An attendee named Sarah Rose Siskind described meeting Paresky at a party—the two ended up sitting in front of a fireplace, curled up under a chinchilla blanket.
Today I learned:
1) People actually make blankets out of chinchillas.
2) Those blankets cost more than I paid for my car.
3) Privileged people with unwelcome opinions who refer to themsevles as "cancelled", "thought criminals" and "politically homeless", are absolutely the kind of monsters who would curl up under a $10,000 blanket made from tiny furry creatures.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 11:36 AM on May 23, 2023 [78 favorites]
Today I learned:
1) People actually make blankets out of chinchillas.
2) Those blankets cost more than I paid for my car.
3) Privileged people with unwelcome opinions who refer to themsevles as "cancelled", "thought criminals" and "politically homeless", are absolutely the kind of monsters who would curl up under a $10,000 blanket made from tiny furry creatures.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 11:36 AM on May 23, 2023 [78 favorites]
There's a lot of upscale media where the editors feel that they have to pretend to be somewhat socially liberal to get over with their audience and make the dinner parties but who are actually quite dedicated to a far right agenda.
Seriously. Wasn't there a sleeper magazine of this kind with an article posted sometime last week, about another clique of insufferable people?
I was going to post that the NYT has a lock on posting sympathetic profiles of chin-stroking assholes and that the New Yorker doesn't need to get into it, but they certainly have been lately. These people are worse than what's-her-fuck that throws away her kids' candy and does polyamory on a whim. They have the moral heft of Paul Gosar, even if they don't have his déclassé friends with tattoos. We have learned from the example of Jesse Singal that having a nice creative-class job and Just Asking Questions is enough, in these days, to destroy lives.
posted by Countess Elena at 11:37 AM on May 23, 2023 [9 favorites]
Seriously. Wasn't there a sleeper magazine of this kind with an article posted sometime last week, about another clique of insufferable people?
I was going to post that the NYT has a lock on posting sympathetic profiles of chin-stroking assholes and that the New Yorker doesn't need to get into it, but they certainly have been lately. These people are worse than what's-her-fuck that throws away her kids' candy and does polyamory on a whim. They have the moral heft of Paul Gosar, even if they don't have his déclassé friends with tattoos. We have learned from the example of Jesse Singal that having a nice creative-class job and Just Asking Questions is enough, in these days, to destroy lives.
posted by Countess Elena at 11:37 AM on May 23, 2023 [9 favorites]
“Which opinions?”
posted by Artw at 11:40 AM on May 23, 2023 [17 favorites]
posted by Artw at 11:40 AM on May 23, 2023 [17 favorites]
I'm reminded of all of those deeply sycophantic and creepy profiles of the "poster boys of the alt-right" Milo Yiannopoulos and Richard Spencer circulating around 2016. Someone around that time (cough Breitbart cough) certainly had a vested interest in humanising those pieces of shit and their odious views.
posted by fight or flight at 11:41 AM on May 23, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by fight or flight at 11:41 AM on May 23, 2023 [10 favorites]
These people are worse than what's-her-fuck that throws away her kids' candy and does polyamory on a whim.
Agnes Callard. And if she's not a frequent attendee, I'll buy you a donut. Also, I lose, for having to think about Agnes Fucking Callard.
posted by The Bellman at 11:44 AM on May 23, 2023 [23 favorites]
Agnes Callard. And if she's not a frequent attendee, I'll buy you a donut. Also, I lose, for having to think about Agnes Fucking Callard.
posted by The Bellman at 11:44 AM on May 23, 2023 [23 favorites]
With Frowner on this one, no one in that office feels like this tiny group of assholes is actually interesting for a piece of writing.
But someone knows someone and here we are.
posted by Slackermagee at 11:55 AM on May 23, 2023 [9 favorites]
But someone knows someone and here we are.
posted by Slackermagee at 11:55 AM on May 23, 2023 [9 favorites]
Seriously. Wasn't there a sleeper magazine of this kind with an article posted sometime last week, about another clique of insufferable people?
This one from conservative site The New Atlantis?
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 11:56 AM on May 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
This one from conservative site The New Atlantis?
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 11:56 AM on May 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
no one in that office feels like this tiny group of assholes is actually interesting
But apparently someone at MetaFilter does
posted by Press Butt.on to Check at 12:00 PM on May 23, 2023 [11 favorites]
But apparently someone at MetaFilter does
posted by Press Butt.on to Check at 12:00 PM on May 23, 2023 [11 favorites]
The Thought Criminals gather all over New York City. [...] They took a river cruise on the East River, sponsored by a sympathetic, unnamed nonprofit organization. Once, they ended up in an Upper West Side mansion with a group of financiers and people in the arts who also meet in private to talk about controversial topics.
The real story in this article is right here. Who are the wealthy sponsors bankrolling this little club and which of them are getting a fucking nonprofit tax deduction to do it?
posted by potrzebie at 12:00 PM on May 23, 2023 [79 favorites]
The real story in this article is right here. Who are the wealthy sponsors bankrolling this little club and which of them are getting a fucking nonprofit tax deduction to do it?
posted by potrzebie at 12:00 PM on May 23, 2023 [79 favorites]
The critical part here is that it pays the very wealthy to be racist, anti-trans, anti-birth-control, etc. Their own children will, mostly, get exceptions - they'll get healthcare under the table or outside the US, their partners will be "not like the other [Xes]", etc. If you're not racist, how are you going to fill the prisons, prisons which either you or your cronies profit from? If women can get abortions and divorces and birth control, how are you going to get enough servants and prisoners and suckers to buy your scam products and rent your slum housing? If there aren't enough racist middle class whites, who will run the prisons and manage the cops?
There are minor exceptions, but in general rich people know which side their bread is buttered on and take good care to keep the butter coming. Because the very rich control more and more of the prestige media, we sometimes think that there's more there there, but it's almost all almost always about naturalizing a racist, misogynist, homophobic hierarchy because that puts money in their pockets.
posted by Frowner at 12:14 PM on May 23, 2023 [57 favorites]
There are minor exceptions, but in general rich people know which side their bread is buttered on and take good care to keep the butter coming. Because the very rich control more and more of the prestige media, we sometimes think that there's more there there, but it's almost all almost always about naturalizing a racist, misogynist, homophobic hierarchy because that puts money in their pockets.
posted by Frowner at 12:14 PM on May 23, 2023 [57 favorites]
This whole grift makes me teeth-grindingly angry. I wish the first rule of this stupid gripe club was that no one talks about gripe club.
posted by sgranade at 12:26 PM on May 23, 2023 [13 favorites]
posted by sgranade at 12:26 PM on May 23, 2023 [13 favorites]
A couple of attendees had detransitioned after identifying as transgender and pursuing gender-related medical procedures in their twenties.
It's worth noting that, statistically, these attendees constitute extreme outliers in the transgender community--coming in at a meager 0.3% of transgendered individuals:
A total of 1989 individual underwent GAS, 6 patients (0,3%) were encountered that either requested reversal surgery or transitioned back to their sex-assigned at birth.
posted by Gordion Knott at 12:33 PM on May 23, 2023 [22 favorites]
It's worth noting that, statistically, these attendees constitute extreme outliers in the transgender community--coming in at a meager 0.3% of transgendered individuals:
A total of 1989 individual underwent GAS, 6 patients (0,3%) were encountered that either requested reversal surgery or transitioned back to their sex-assigned at birth.
posted by Gordion Knott at 12:33 PM on May 23, 2023 [22 favorites]
I agree with many of the things already said about how these people are powerfully connected bigots but also they're just so TEDIOUS and so are the constant fawning profiles of them. They have the absolute most retrograde, conventional views you can imagine and they need to be praised for them; they want to believe they're iconoclasts demonstrating incisive wit and producing sparkling gems of conversation and they are absolutely the dullest people in the world. It's like how Elon Musk's fondest dream is to be able to post but he can't, these people want to believe they are hosting intellectual little salons but they don't have anything interesting to say so they create the form without the substance and they lack the insight to see the difference.
posted by an octopus IRL at 12:52 PM on May 23, 2023 [48 favorites]
posted by an octopus IRL at 12:52 PM on May 23, 2023 [48 favorites]
I was hoping that this wouldn't appear here, but since it has, here's Roy Edroso's (unfortunatel substack) response to the article: Affirmative Action for Crybullies. Excerpt:
The mistress of ceremonies, psychologist Pamela Paresky, hastens to assure Green that “no one who comes to our gatherings is an actual criminal,” though at least one is an accused sex pest. They perhaps identify as criminals because they have been caught at actions that normally carry consequences, and some have received rather gentle versions thereof.posted by Joey Michaels at 12:53 PM on May 23, 2023 [33 favorites]
Former Princeton professor Joshua Katz, for example, lost his teaching gig because, Green says, he “had not been fully honest and coöperative during an investigation into a consensual sexual relationship that he had with another student in 2006 and 2007.” (Green says “another” because she already mentioned a different student Katz was fucking, who eventually married him.) Don’t worry how he’s making ends meet, though, because Green tells us Katz sometimes has the Thought Criminals over for funsies at his “newly purchased home in Georgetown.”
This is a hallmark, by the way, of the Thought Criminals and nearly all cancelculture crybabies you read about in the prestige press: They may lose jobs, or the respect of their friends and peers, but they never, ever seem to lose any money.
"The Insufferables" would maybe be a better name for this club.
posted by flabdablet at 12:59 PM on May 23, 2023 [20 favorites]
The second rule of the gatherings is that Pamela has to like you. Pamela is Pamela Paresky, the gathering’s organizer, a fifty-six-year-old psychologist who lives in Chelsea. ... Her writing, primarily featured in Psychology Today, focusses in part on the social dynamics of ostracization. She was the lead researcher and an editor for “The Coddling of the American Mind,” Greg Lukianoff and Jonathan Haidt’s 2018 book about campus safe spaces and trigger warnings.And now she's coddling a pack of American minds who are all looking for a safe space for a regular whine and dine. Well, safe as long as they manage to bite their tongue instead of saying something that might piss Pamela off.
posted by flabdablet at 12:59 PM on May 23, 2023 [20 favorites]
They have the absolute most retrograde, conventional views you can imagine and they need to be praised for them; they want to believe they're iconoclasts demonstrating incisive wit and producing sparkling gems of conversation and they are absolutely the dullest people in the world. It's like how Elon Musk's fondest dream is to be able to post but he can't
Right, like, they're furious they can't be conservative and cool at the same time. It feels like a whole roomful of people thinking "what did I do to get stuck here with these losers?"
posted by smelendez at 1:13 PM on May 23, 2023 [16 favorites]
Right, like, they're furious they can't be conservative and cool at the same time. It feels like a whole roomful of people thinking "what did I do to get stuck here with these losers?"
posted by smelendez at 1:13 PM on May 23, 2023 [16 favorites]
Looks like a version of AA, A**holes Anonymous.
Except they want attention and they aren't going to Step 9 anyone.
posted by Garm at 1:14 PM on May 23, 2023 [4 favorites]
Except they want attention and they aren't going to Step 9 anyone.
posted by Garm at 1:14 PM on May 23, 2023 [4 favorites]
I'm torn between wanting to read the article so I can internally point and stare vs trying to cut down on my hate-reading.
posted by rmd1023 at 1:20 PM on May 23, 2023 [25 favorites]
posted by rmd1023 at 1:20 PM on May 23, 2023 [25 favorites]
We've read it so you don't have to. And this particular bunch is just not worth the time you'd spend pointing and staring. There's nothing here you haven't seen a thousand times elsewhere.
posted by flabdablet at 1:24 PM on May 23, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 1:24 PM on May 23, 2023 [9 favorites]
But apparently someone at MetaFilter does
It's not that the assholes themselves are interesting, but what they (and puff pieces like this) represent - an attitude of a certain set of individuals that "free speech" means that they should be allowed to voice abusive, harmful positions without even the slightest of consequences. Dave Karpf called this imaginary group "The Republic Of Letters":
posted by NoxAeternum at 1:41 PM on May 23, 2023 [22 favorites]
It's not that the assholes themselves are interesting, but what they (and puff pieces like this) represent - an attitude of a certain set of individuals that "free speech" means that they should be allowed to voice abusive, harmful positions without even the slightest of consequences. Dave Karpf called this imaginary group "The Republic Of Letters":
The Republic of Letters is inhabited by deft wordsmiths and provocative thinkers. They are lawyers and executives, writers and intellectuals. They engage in Great Debates over public virtue and vice. They opine on matters foreign and domestic. They write with verve and panache.To them, the idea that they could face scrutiny for their own actions is an affront, and they act the part.
Membership in the Republic of Letters is hard to come by. Only masters of the craft are invited. (Sure, the right family name and private schooling helps, but it is gauche to mention such things.) Upon entry, your sole responsibility is to engage deeply in public debate.
Two things you have to understand about the Republic of Letters are (1) it is not real. It has never been real. It is an ideal amongst the social class that historically has written for publications like the NYTimes. (2) its inhabitants are threatened like never before.
Membership in the Republic of Letters is supposed to function as a shield against social repercussions for unpopular speech. That's the implicit social contract (implicit because no one ever signed up for it, but everyone has carried on as though it were the case).
That shield is useful for promoting interesting ideas and challenging orthodoxies. It is a fundamentally liberal ideal -- we ought to be free to speak our minds and evaluate the merits of competing arguments without fear of repercussion.
And it is an ideal that, instinctively, ought especially apply in spaces of learning and debate -- universities, public events, and newspaper opinion sections.
But it is also an ideal that has never been universally applied. The shield only has ever extended to the members of the Republic of Letters. (Though it is also gauche to mention such a thing. Say it too loudly or often any your membership might be revoked!)
posted by NoxAeternum at 1:41 PM on May 23, 2023 [22 favorites]
(Sure, the right family name and private schooling helps, but it is gauche to mention such things.)
I do be mentioning these things.
posted by gauche at 1:44 PM on May 23, 2023 [63 favorites]
I do be mentioning these things.
posted by gauche at 1:44 PM on May 23, 2023 [63 favorites]
> The real story in this article is right here. Who are the wealthy sponsors bankrolling this little club and which of them are getting a fucking nonprofit tax deduction to do it?This isn't the first time today I wish someone had the means to dig deeply into these kinds of activities and publicly name names & post evidence openly.
Failing that, I've got an idea that someone needs to pitch a white-collar/affluent type of Punisher/Batman to comics publishers.
posted by Fiberoptic Zebroid and The Hypnagogic Jerks at 1:46 PM on May 23, 2023 [5 favorites]
To them, the idea that they could face scrutiny for their own actions is an affront, and they act the part.
Yes, but the question on the floor actually is - why have we all been pulled into the audience for their performance?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:49 PM on May 23, 2023 [6 favorites]
Yes, but the question on the floor actually is - why have we all been pulled into the audience for their performance?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:49 PM on May 23, 2023 [6 favorites]
I'm here for the whine and cheese. What are you here for?
posted by flabdablet at 2:00 PM on May 23, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 2:00 PM on May 23, 2023 [3 favorites]
What are you here for?
Actual clubbing. Like baby seals, although I'm not picky.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 2:01 PM on May 23, 2023 [6 favorites]
Actual clubbing. Like baby seals, although I'm not picky.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 2:01 PM on May 23, 2023 [6 favorites]
why have we all been pulled into the audience for their performance?
The same reason none of those conservative, right-wing alternatives to Twitter have ever taken off: these people are nothing without the privilege of having a captive audience. It isn't enough that this little group of people get together and have a sulk--they need everyone to know that they're getting together and sulking, hence the profile in the New Yorker about their little sulk party.
Frowner nailed it upthread: It's privilege that keeps getting these people platformed. Someone knows someone else at the New Yorker and they were able to get a profile about the private activities of an inconsequential, closed-door social club through the article pitch meeting.
And I feel that last part is key because it's not like the audience of the New Yorker gains anything from reading this article other than knowing these people exist. It's not like the group is looking for new members. They're not offering outreach or explicitly advocating for anything or encouraging other people to get involved with what they're doing. The members aren't celebrities--most people probably don't know who they are nor care that they're getting together for drinks and going on cruises. And yet here's an entire profile in the New Yorker about them!
It's almost as if someone is purposefully shining a favorable light on these people for....reasons.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 2:11 PM on May 23, 2023 [31 favorites]
The same reason none of those conservative, right-wing alternatives to Twitter have ever taken off: these people are nothing without the privilege of having a captive audience. It isn't enough that this little group of people get together and have a sulk--they need everyone to know that they're getting together and sulking, hence the profile in the New Yorker about their little sulk party.
Frowner nailed it upthread: It's privilege that keeps getting these people platformed. Someone knows someone else at the New Yorker and they were able to get a profile about the private activities of an inconsequential, closed-door social club through the article pitch meeting.
And I feel that last part is key because it's not like the audience of the New Yorker gains anything from reading this article other than knowing these people exist. It's not like the group is looking for new members. They're not offering outreach or explicitly advocating for anything or encouraging other people to get involved with what they're doing. The members aren't celebrities--most people probably don't know who they are nor care that they're getting together for drinks and going on cruises. And yet here's an entire profile in the New Yorker about them!
It's almost as if someone is purposefully shining a favorable light on these people for....reasons.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 2:11 PM on May 23, 2023 [31 favorites]
What's strange about the whole "Republic of Letters" is that there seems to be no feedback loop at all about quality. The New Yorker has declined in quality drastically over the last few years. The only dependably interesting writing is in Goings on About Town, and the "public" cartoons on the last page. (The "professional" cartoons have become really terrible and unfunny). -- Though I don't read the short stories anymore, so I don't know if there is a change there or not.
The NYT has had painfully bad science and arts coverage for decades, in recently times covering science stories only after they've been all over the other popular science media for ages. On the visual art side, the amount of money concerned seems to often be the story. And did I see Matthew Barney turn up again?? I don't even want to go look, but it must have been in the NYT.
posted by Vegiemon at 2:19 PM on May 23, 2023 [3 favorites]
The NYT has had painfully bad science and arts coverage for decades, in recently times covering science stories only after they've been all over the other popular science media for ages. On the visual art side, the amount of money concerned seems to often be the story. And did I see Matthew Barney turn up again?? I don't even want to go look, but it must have been in the NYT.
posted by Vegiemon at 2:19 PM on May 23, 2023 [3 favorites]
Hmm, maybe that was ArtNews. Sorry. Still weird to see.
posted by Vegiemon at 2:26 PM on May 23, 2023
posted by Vegiemon at 2:26 PM on May 23, 2023
hey google how do you set an entire country on fire
posted by DirtyOldTown at 2:31 PM on May 23, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 2:31 PM on May 23, 2023 [8 favorites]
It's almost as if someone is purposefully shining a favorable light on these people for....reasons.
Because their goal is to reshape how we culturally see free speech, and to push the idea that we are obliged to give hate and abuse deference. And the problem is that they have had some success in doing this - hence why when Yale Law and Stanford Law students protested at the platforming of bigots, the discussion was instead "look at those awful students attacking a guest."
posted by NoxAeternum at 2:35 PM on May 23, 2023 [24 favorites]
Because their goal is to reshape how we culturally see free speech, and to push the idea that we are obliged to give hate and abuse deference. And the problem is that they have had some success in doing this - hence why when Yale Law and Stanford Law students protested at the platforming of bigots, the discussion was instead "look at those awful students attacking a guest."
posted by NoxAeternum at 2:35 PM on May 23, 2023 [24 favorites]
If they follow it up with an interview by Isaac Chotiner it will be worth the up-front disgust.
posted by ssmug at 2:49 PM on May 23, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by ssmug at 2:49 PM on May 23, 2023 [3 favorites]
I mean they sound awful but
And yet here's an entire profile in the New Yorker about them!
Isn't that just what the New Yorker does, any particular dogma aside, many NY articles I've read had an element of so obscure that I'd never possibly notice without it being int the NY.
posted by sammyo at 2:54 PM on May 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
And yet here's an entire profile in the New Yorker about them!
Isn't that just what the New Yorker does, any particular dogma aside, many NY articles I've read had an element of so obscure that I'd never possibly notice without it being int the NY.
posted by sammyo at 2:54 PM on May 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
IIRC Emma Green is their resident anti-mask crusader, so probably on side with these ghouls on every conceivable issue
posted by Artw at 2:58 PM on May 23, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by Artw at 2:58 PM on May 23, 2023 [8 favorites]
I am separately indignant that anyone should use, let alone offer the title Republic of Letters for these choads.
posted by clew at 4:03 PM on May 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by clew at 4:03 PM on May 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
A fascinating article about an icky bunch.
But, after seeing this in the article:
Jones co-founded an organization called icons, the Independent Council on Women’s Sports, which advocates for what Jones sees as the rights of female athletes
What I really want to know is how they got ICONS out of that?? I guess ICOWS doesn't have the same ring to it.
posted by rpfields at 4:53 PM on May 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
But, after seeing this in the article:
Jones co-founded an organization called icons, the Independent Council on Women’s Sports, which advocates for what Jones sees as the rights of female athletes
What I really want to know is how they got ICONS out of that?? I guess ICOWS doesn't have the same ring to it.
posted by rpfields at 4:53 PM on May 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
These people are so thoroughly cancelled that they got themselves an extended profile in the New YorkerYeah, serious "I have been silenced!" energy in it.
posted by KelsonV at 5:01 PM on May 23, 2023 [14 favorites]
Sounds to me like a ripe setting for the next Benoit Blanc/ Knives Out movie. Will somebody please wrangle Rian Johnson an invitation so he can gather some field studies?
posted by LeRoienJaune at 6:00 PM on May 23, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by LeRoienJaune at 6:00 PM on May 23, 2023 [11 favorites]
Frowner nailed it upthread: It's privilege that keeps getting these people platformed. Someone knows someone else at the New Yorker and they were able to get a profile about the private activities of an inconsequential, closed-door social club through the article pitch meeting.
It's more likely PR firms/think tanks pitching themes and stories to the Times. These sad sack cancelled people are the beneficiaries and possibly clients of firms that specialize in manipulating the press often with the press knowingly complying with the manipulation. That the leaders and editors at places and New Yorkers choose to run these pitches may well be some in-group class identification/aspiration/sycophancy but their menu of story choices is driven by a massive subterranean media influencing industry that pretty much all major media pretends does not exist despite much of their staff rotating in and out of the very industry on the regular. It's one of the reasons why I hate it when people say large scale conspiracies are impossible. They clearly are if you do it in the open and just declare it a business as usual non-story and that anyone who notices is a radical conspiracy theorist.
posted by srboisvert at 6:15 PM on May 23, 2023 [12 favorites]
It's more likely PR firms/think tanks pitching themes and stories to the Times. These sad sack cancelled people are the beneficiaries and possibly clients of firms that specialize in manipulating the press often with the press knowingly complying with the manipulation. That the leaders and editors at places and New Yorkers choose to run these pitches may well be some in-group class identification/aspiration/sycophancy but their menu of story choices is driven by a massive subterranean media influencing industry that pretty much all major media pretends does not exist despite much of their staff rotating in and out of the very industry on the regular. It's one of the reasons why I hate it when people say large scale conspiracies are impossible. They clearly are if you do it in the open and just declare it a business as usual non-story and that anyone who notices is a radical conspiracy theorist.
posted by srboisvert at 6:15 PM on May 23, 2023 [12 favorites]
These are the kind of people who will never get invited to get nude and conspiratorial at the Bohemian Grove, and know it. The shittiest Illuminati.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 6:25 PM on May 23, 2023 [18 favorites]
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 6:25 PM on May 23, 2023 [18 favorites]
The shittiest Illuminati.
Oh that is nice
posted by A Terrible Llama at 7:07 PM on May 23, 2023 [6 favorites]
Oh that is nice
posted by A Terrible Llama at 7:07 PM on May 23, 2023 [6 favorites]
Vegiemon, there was an article about Matthew Barney in the NYT on the 14th. God, he's tedious.
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 7:50 PM on May 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 7:50 PM on May 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
On top of the ridiculous notion that these people’s views have been “cancelled” in any way at all, this article is just so, so, dull. Like, a bunch of rich people who have just enough shame not to go full MAGA have a happy hour. Yes, this is what friends do, abhorrent views or not. It’s not enough that they want praise for their bigoted views, they also think they’re so fascinating that even their get-together at mediocre bars are news-worthy.
I go to a monthly happy hour for nurses that’s very left-leaning, and just for fun I tried writing a bit about it as if it were a fawning “cancelled rich people” piece. Names/jobs changed to protect the people who might be cancelled for unionizing.
I go to a monthly happy hour for nurses that’s very left-leaning, and just for fun I tried writing a bit about it as if it were a fawning “cancelled rich people” piece. Names/jobs changed to protect the people who might be cancelled for unionizing.
The nurses drift in over the course of an hour, crowding tightly around a long table at the roomy, high-ceilinged brewery. At the far end Rosie, a case manager for patients with substance use disorders, and Bella, who works in geriatrics, compare notes on their workplace unionizing efforts. “We’re just starting to form an organizing committee,” Rosie whispers. “Don’t spread this around yet.”posted by I am a Sock, I am an Island at 7:54 PM on May 23, 2023 [52 favorites]
Bella bites a fried pickle and reports that she’s only recently connected with a union organizer and started talking to a few co-workers. Recent changes in her workplace, however, have fueled her resolve to organize. “They just fired two people out of nowhere. All that work we did during Covid, and this is how they treat us.”
Common themes emerge as the table draws closer together. Everyone notes that their workplaces are slow to replace employees as workers resign. A resigned sense of gallows humor reigns as people swap stories about the lengths employers will go to before ever acknowledging the personnel crisis or raising wages.
“This coloring page just went up outside the break room for mental health awareness month and I was like, oh no”, says Joni, the sole RN at a busy public health clinic. “That means they’re never going to help us anymore.”
The same reason none of those conservative, right-wing alternatives to Twitter have ever taken off: these people are nothing without the privilege of having a captive audience. It isn't enough that this little group of people get together and have a sulk--they need everyone to know that they're getting together and sulking, hence the profile in the New Yorker about their little sulk party.
And even still, the question remains - just because these people are having a pity party, and just because the New Yorker wrote about it - why did someone make an FPP about that article?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:07 PM on May 23, 2023 [10 favorites]
And even still, the question remains - just because these people are having a pity party, and just because the New Yorker wrote about it - why did someone make an FPP about that article?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:07 PM on May 23, 2023 [10 favorites]
"So yeah, this is posted as a demonstration of how twisted our discourse on free speech has become, especially around the preferred first speaker fallacy.", at least per the poster. I personally think it's not the ideal reason to post to the front page.
posted by sagc at 8:35 PM on May 23, 2023
posted by sagc at 8:35 PM on May 23, 2023
posted by I am a Sock, I am an Island at 7:54 PM on May 23
Please subscribe me to this newsletter!!
posted by latkes at 9:02 PM on May 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
Please subscribe me to this newsletter!!
posted by latkes at 9:02 PM on May 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
How do we get Sacha Baron Cohen into one of these meetings with a hidden camera
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 10:31 PM on May 23, 2023 [14 favorites]
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 10:31 PM on May 23, 2023 [14 favorites]
And even still, the question remains - just because these people are having a pity party, and just because the New Yorker wrote about it - why did someone make an FPP about that article?
Because, as I said several times, this pity party has actual real world ramifications as part of the point of this article is to argue that these people are being mistreated and how that's so wrong. As the article points out, the woman who runs these events has been involved with FIRE, the right wing "free speech" and "academic liberty" group that argues that the real crisis of free speech on college campuses isn't that they're under attack from regressive pundits and politicians, but that someone like Joshua Katz was investigated and dismissed (for completely legitimate reasons.) This article is part of that campaign, and while it may seem tedious to us (and yes, I also find these assholes tedious), the reality is that the argument they're making is getting traction, so we ignore them at our peril.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:31 PM on May 23, 2023 [31 favorites]
Because, as I said several times, this pity party has actual real world ramifications as part of the point of this article is to argue that these people are being mistreated and how that's so wrong. As the article points out, the woman who runs these events has been involved with FIRE, the right wing "free speech" and "academic liberty" group that argues that the real crisis of free speech on college campuses isn't that they're under attack from regressive pundits and politicians, but that someone like Joshua Katz was investigated and dismissed (for completely legitimate reasons.) This article is part of that campaign, and while it may seem tedious to us (and yes, I also find these assholes tedious), the reality is that the argument they're making is getting traction, so we ignore them at our peril.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:31 PM on May 23, 2023 [31 favorites]
I would pay one MEEEEELLION dollars for someone to go incognito and, like, loudly declare the 14 words right into a lull in the conversation. "Right, guys???" Just to see what would happen. Like that episode of Seinfeld where he smugly bonds with his "anti-dentite" date and then she starts in on the Jews.
posted by praemunire at 11:12 PM on May 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by praemunire at 11:12 PM on May 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
It's "ICONS" instead of "ICOWS" because she wasn't troubled at a change that elided the word of least importance.
posted by allium cepa at 11:43 PM on May 23, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by allium cepa at 11:43 PM on May 23, 2023 [7 favorites]
Let the Thought Criminals run free
[Am I the only one here without a NYer subscription?!]
posted by chavenet at 2:31 AM on May 24, 2023 [4 favorites]
[Am I the only one here without a NYer subscription?!]
posted by chavenet at 2:31 AM on May 24, 2023 [4 favorites]
They might imagine themselves as the (Fun Loving) Thought Criminals, but it's not a new development that the rich and bigoted can afford their own echo chamber.
posted by allium cepa at 4:47 AM on May 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by allium cepa at 4:47 AM on May 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
Nor that they can afford to have that chamber fitted with multiple enormous megaphones, and do.
posted by flabdablet at 4:53 AM on May 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 4:53 AM on May 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
Investigative journalism is essentially a nuisance that the wealthy have historically had to put up with in order to give their agenda-setting opinion factories a defensible excuse to exist. It will be interesting to see which way public opinion shifts now that Fox isn't even pretending to do that any more.
"We report, you decide" was a fucking good slogan, as slogans go. So much pithier than "We don't need to care what you think as long as we can keep telling you what to think about."
Bread is getting expensive, so it's time to pacify the masses with the cheapest cookie-cutter circuses that the consent manufacturing industry can possibly churn out.
posted by flabdablet at 5:15 AM on May 24, 2023 [4 favorites]
"We report, you decide" was a fucking good slogan, as slogans go. So much pithier than "We don't need to care what you think as long as we can keep telling you what to think about."
Bread is getting expensive, so it's time to pacify the masses with the cheapest cookie-cutter circuses that the consent manufacturing industry can possibly churn out.
posted by flabdablet at 5:15 AM on May 24, 2023 [4 favorites]
I wanna know how the *daughter* of the woman who founded ICONS felt about losing that swim meet. Like, was she just like "fuck, second place again" or does she actually support her batshit mother?
Also: these people aren't important enough to be fed to crocodiles like the Bohemian Grove people.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 7:12 AM on May 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
Also: these people aren't important enough to be fed to crocodiles like the Bohemian Grove people.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 7:12 AM on May 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
outgrown_hobnail: I thought of that, too. She is either the worst spoiled creature or the most embarrassed person on the planet. In that case, she should get in touch with Claudia Conway and Maya Marcel-Keyes to form a support group for the world's worst parents. (Maybe they could talk to Ted Cruz's daughters, too.)
posted by Countess Elena at 7:25 AM on May 24, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by Countess Elena at 7:25 AM on May 24, 2023 [6 favorites]
"So yeah, this is posted as a demonstration of how twisted our discourse on free speech has become, especially around the preferred first speaker fallacy."
What is the preferred first speaker fallacy?
posted by Brian B. at 7:30 AM on May 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
What is the preferred first speaker fallacy?
posted by Brian B. at 7:30 AM on May 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
I guess it's a Popehat thing
The doctrine of the Preferred First Speaker holds that when Person A speaks, listeners B, C, and D should refrain from their full range of constitutionally protected expression to preserve the ability of Person A to speak without fear of non-governmental consequences that Person A doesn't like.posted by nicwolff at 7:50 AM on May 24, 2023 [4 favorites]
I really just want to know where the Yale swimmer placed and in which race. I do remember a number of the people who complained about Thomas were placing something like 10th, so it isn't as if a bunch of cis-women hadn't beaten them as well.
posted by dame at 8:04 AM on May 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by dame at 8:04 AM on May 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
What did Ted Cruz do to his daughters? Or are you just going on the principle that he's a shit human and therefore a shit parent?
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 8:08 AM on May 24, 2023
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 8:08 AM on May 24, 2023
Thanks, nicwolff. I was wondering if it referred to the preferred position of free speech.
posted by Brian B. at 8:10 AM on May 24, 2023
posted by Brian B. at 8:10 AM on May 24, 2023
loudly declare the 14 words right into a lull in the conversation
You could absolutely get that in there without it being noticed, that is fully baked into TERF ideology.
posted by Artw at 8:13 AM on May 24, 2023
You could absolutely get that in there without it being noticed, that is fully baked into TERF ideology.
posted by Artw at 8:13 AM on May 24, 2023
What did Ted Cruz do to his daughters?
I assume this is alluding to the time of the deadly Texas winter power outage. Ted fled with his family to Mexico (leaving the dog behind) and blamed his daughters when he was rightly criticized.
posted by LindsayIrene at 8:14 AM on May 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
I assume this is alluding to the time of the deadly Texas winter power outage. Ted fled with his family to Mexico (leaving the dog behind) and blamed his daughters when he was rightly criticized.
posted by LindsayIrene at 8:14 AM on May 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
What is the preferred first speaker fallacy?
It's the idea that to protect free speech, there is an "obligation" that responses to someone's comments must be limited as to prevent the original speaker from suffering consequence for their conduct. It comes from the same place as "self-censorship", otherwise known as realizing the truth of "best to let others wonder if you are a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt."
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:24 AM on May 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
It's the idea that to protect free speech, there is an "obligation" that responses to someone's comments must be limited as to prevent the original speaker from suffering consequence for their conduct. It comes from the same place as "self-censorship", otherwise known as realizing the truth of "best to let others wonder if you are a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt."
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:24 AM on May 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
If we are really going to talk about a society based on shunned and displaced people, let me welcome any and all people and peoples to the City of New Orleans. For decades, whether you are being run out of Alabama, Texas, Arkansas, Tennessee, Florida, Mississippi, Canada, or Louisiana, come on down.
I don't know of many folks fleeing West Virginia, but you are still welcome, perhaps there's someplace closer to where you are and I hope you make it. I hear all the Jewish people are gone, and that is a bad sign.
Let us honor our recently departed Queen, Chris Owens. Peace Be Upon Her.
We are not as smart as the folks in Atlanta, but our food is better. I'm sorry the rent is not as cheap as it used to be
posted by eustatic at 8:36 AM on May 24, 2023 [5 favorites]
I don't know of many folks fleeing West Virginia, but you are still welcome, perhaps there's someplace closer to where you are and I hope you make it. I hear all the Jewish people are gone, and that is a bad sign.
Let us honor our recently departed Queen, Chris Owens. Peace Be Upon Her.
We are not as smart as the folks in Atlanta, but our food is better. I'm sorry the rent is not as cheap as it used to be
posted by eustatic at 8:36 AM on May 24, 2023 [5 favorites]
It's the idea that to protect free speech, there is an "obligation" that responses to someone's comments must be limited as to prevent the original speaker from suffering consequence for their conduct.
So what protects us from conservative death squads then?
It comes from the same place as "self-censorship", otherwise known as realizing the truth of "best to let others wonder if you are a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt."
"Realizing the truth" of self-censorship is consistent with fearing consequences, but inconsistent with free speech.
posted by Brian B. at 8:44 AM on May 24, 2023
So what protects us from conservative death squads then?
It comes from the same place as "self-censorship", otherwise known as realizing the truth of "best to let others wonder if you are a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt."
"Realizing the truth" of self-censorship is consistent with fearing consequences, but inconsistent with free speech.
posted by Brian B. at 8:44 AM on May 24, 2023
All of this for these people to maintain a fantasy that they are nothing like their parents after a couple drinks at the country club.
posted by Selena777 at 8:48 AM on May 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Selena777 at 8:48 AM on May 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
So what protects us from conservative death squads then?
State security forces, which increasingly seem unwillingly to do so if there's any risk.
I think its fair to point out that for this club, organizations related (like FIRE), and the Very Serious Free Speech people there is a broad acceptance of reasonable time/place/manner restrictions on speech.
Unless its something like a Victims of Communism Club being told to use the same kiosk for political advocacy that everyone else must use at which point their posters are being sent to the free speech gulag, pushed out into the cold, quarantined from where they would have views, and other similar hysterics.
posted by Slackermagee at 9:06 AM on May 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
State security forces, which increasingly seem unwillingly to do so if there's any risk.
I think its fair to point out that for this club, organizations related (like FIRE), and the Very Serious Free Speech people there is a broad acceptance of reasonable time/place/manner restrictions on speech.
Unless its something like a Victims of Communism Club being told to use the same kiosk for political advocacy that everyone else must use at which point their posters are being sent to the free speech gulag, pushed out into the cold, quarantined from where they would have views, and other similar hysterics.
posted by Slackermagee at 9:06 AM on May 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
It's the idea that to protect free speech, there is an "obligation" that responses to someone's comments must be limited as to prevent the original speaker from suffering consequence for their conduct.
FWIW this is the same logic behind Gamergate claiming their “ethics in games journalism” nonsense was protecting free speech by attacking it.
posted by Artw at 9:08 AM on May 24, 2023
FWIW this is the same logic behind Gamergate claiming their “ethics in games journalism” nonsense was protecting free speech by attacking it.
posted by Artw at 9:08 AM on May 24, 2023
State security forces, which increasingly seem unwillingly to do so if there's any risk.
Same goons off duty in the most of the world. The greater point is that if we're reverting to cultural or popular definitions of human rights, then it might be best not to appeal to majority or local standards when trying to maintain a minority freedom of personal expression.
posted by Brian B. at 9:31 AM on May 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
Same goons off duty in the most of the world. The greater point is that if we're reverting to cultural or popular definitions of human rights, then it might be best not to appeal to majority or local standards when trying to maintain a minority freedom of personal expression.
posted by Brian B. at 9:31 AM on May 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
The greater point is that if we're reverting to cultural or popular definitions of human rights, then it might be best not to appeal to majority or local standards when trying to maintain a minority freedom of personal expression.
This is arguing we're somehow obliged to turn a blind eye to hate and bigotry because if we don't, then we will be attacked for our positions. First, binding our hands will never bind theirs, so this will never protect us. Second, freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from the consequences of that speech - nobody is stopping these people from putting their foot firmly in their mouth.
posted by NoxAeternum at 9:52 AM on May 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
This is arguing we're somehow obliged to turn a blind eye to hate and bigotry because if we don't, then we will be attacked for our positions. First, binding our hands will never bind theirs, so this will never protect us. Second, freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from the consequences of that speech - nobody is stopping these people from putting their foot firmly in their mouth.
posted by NoxAeternum at 9:52 AM on May 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
This is arguing we're somehow obliged to turn a blind eye to hate and bigotry because if we don't, then we will be attacked for our positions.
My objection is that you were willing to sacrifice free speech in theory, when it only needed to be invoked equally. You don't need principles to stand up for yourself, but you need them to protect your right to do so, and for anyone else who might agree.
posted by Brian B. at 10:26 AM on May 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
My objection is that you were willing to sacrifice free speech in theory, when it only needed to be invoked equally. You don't need principles to stand up for yourself, but you need them to protect your right to do so, and for anyone else who might agree.
posted by Brian B. at 10:26 AM on May 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
My objection is that you were willing to sacrifice free speech in theory, when it only needed to be invoked equally.
It is being invoked equally. Once again, you're not owed friends or a good name by anyone.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:41 AM on May 24, 2023 [5 favorites]
It is being invoked equally. Once again, you're not owed friends or a good name by anyone.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:41 AM on May 24, 2023 [5 favorites]
Didn't Dorothy Thompson write a more incisive version article about this group of people in 1931?
in any case, food critic Soleil Ho (though i am underselling them) wrote an article with a similar premise but a more interesting, less stenographic approach: I attended a secretive anti-trans dinner in San Francisco. And then I puked
posted by i used to be someone else at 11:54 AM on May 24, 2023 [5 favorites]
in any case, food critic Soleil Ho (though i am underselling them) wrote an article with a similar premise but a more interesting, less stenographic approach: I attended a secretive anti-trans dinner in San Francisco. And then I puked
posted by i used to be someone else at 11:54 AM on May 24, 2023 [5 favorites]
In re this free speech thing: my test is, you can say what you want, but it's subject to deconstruction. As in, the original meaning of deconstruction: showing how something that appears to be based in logic and evidence is in fact just prejudice in fancy clothes.
Take, e.g., trans people on sports teams. If someone's going to get up there and give a nuanced view, based in biology, of why it might be problematic, they should be allowed to speak even if you disagree with it. But if what they say can be deconstructed—if it's just being awful towards trans people with some pseudoscience—then yeah, you get to get up in their grill about it.
Overall, I'm not a big fan of the "conservative speaker gets invited to campus and liberal student groups try to block it" trope, mostly because it makes the liberal students look like intolerant douchebags, but also a little bit because what some conservative people say isn't just prejudice, even if I don't agree with it. Same thing with "cancelling" people: let them apologize sincerely and move on. But of course none of that applies here, because all the people in this club should be on an ice floe floating out to sea, not least because they clearly don't think they did anything wrong.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 12:20 PM on May 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
Take, e.g., trans people on sports teams. If someone's going to get up there and give a nuanced view, based in biology, of why it might be problematic, they should be allowed to speak even if you disagree with it. But if what they say can be deconstructed—if it's just being awful towards trans people with some pseudoscience—then yeah, you get to get up in their grill about it.
Overall, I'm not a big fan of the "conservative speaker gets invited to campus and liberal student groups try to block it" trope, mostly because it makes the liberal students look like intolerant douchebags, but also a little bit because what some conservative people say isn't just prejudice, even if I don't agree with it. Same thing with "cancelling" people: let them apologize sincerely and move on. But of course none of that applies here, because all the people in this club should be on an ice floe floating out to sea, not least because they clearly don't think they did anything wrong.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 12:20 PM on May 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
In re this free speech thing: my test is, you can say what you want, but it's subject to deconstruction.
You know why the right wing is so focused on doing this stuff on college campuses? Because if someone manages to overcome their gish gallop of bad-faith horseshit, even if they get absolutely waxed to the point that all of their intolerant bullshit is exposed for what it is and absolutely no one in the audience will ever believe it, then they just send the same assholes to the same colleges a few years later and oh look, there's a whole new audience right there for them. Okay, fine, you deconstruct it again. Guess what happens a few years later. And then a few years later. And so on and so forth and suchlike.
How many times do we have to be subjected to the same assholes spouting the same horseshit before someone just puts their foot down and says "No. We're no longer entertaining 'rational discussions' of whether gay people should be allowed to exist or poor people deserve it or the media is biased against reporting Black-on-white crime."?
posted by Etrigan at 12:33 PM on May 24, 2023 [15 favorites]
You know why the right wing is so focused on doing this stuff on college campuses? Because if someone manages to overcome their gish gallop of bad-faith horseshit, even if they get absolutely waxed to the point that all of their intolerant bullshit is exposed for what it is and absolutely no one in the audience will ever believe it, then they just send the same assholes to the same colleges a few years later and oh look, there's a whole new audience right there for them. Okay, fine, you deconstruct it again. Guess what happens a few years later. And then a few years later. And so on and so forth and suchlike.
How many times do we have to be subjected to the same assholes spouting the same horseshit before someone just puts their foot down and says "No. We're no longer entertaining 'rational discussions' of whether gay people should be allowed to exist or poor people deserve it or the media is biased against reporting Black-on-white crime."?
posted by Etrigan at 12:33 PM on May 24, 2023 [15 favorites]
How many times do we have to be subjected to the same assholes spouting the same horseshit before someone just puts their foot down and says "No. We're no longer entertaining 'rational discussions' of whether gay people should be allowed to exist or poor people deserve it or the media is biased against reporting Black-on-white crime."?
This is why "the answer to bad/hate speech is more/better speech" fails as a principle - because it is an argument that the marginalized are expected to continually defend their right to exist. At this point, especially regarding the humanity of others, the matter is settled and people seeking to relitigate the issue should be told to go fuck off. (And before you cry "free speech"/"academic freedom", let me point out that the academy routinely tells cranks to go pound sand, so why should this be different?)
Overall, I'm not a big fan of the "conservative speaker gets invited to campus and liberal student groups try to block it" trope, mostly because it makes the liberal students look like intolerant douchebags, but also a little bit because what some conservative people say isn't just prejudice, even if I don't agree with it.
Again, "don't agree"/"don't like" is reductionist and designed to conceal what the disagreement is actually about - this makes it a bad faith argument. But beyond that, the argument that we are obliged to give speakers a platform even if we are opposed to those views violates not only free speech but freedom of association - the point of nobody owes you a soapbox is that nobody is obliged to put their imprimatur on your words other than they want to.
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:50 PM on May 24, 2023 [4 favorites]
This is why "the answer to bad/hate speech is more/better speech" fails as a principle - because it is an argument that the marginalized are expected to continually defend their right to exist. At this point, especially regarding the humanity of others, the matter is settled and people seeking to relitigate the issue should be told to go fuck off. (And before you cry "free speech"/"academic freedom", let me point out that the academy routinely tells cranks to go pound sand, so why should this be different?)
Overall, I'm not a big fan of the "conservative speaker gets invited to campus and liberal student groups try to block it" trope, mostly because it makes the liberal students look like intolerant douchebags, but also a little bit because what some conservative people say isn't just prejudice, even if I don't agree with it.
Again, "don't agree"/"don't like" is reductionist and designed to conceal what the disagreement is actually about - this makes it a bad faith argument. But beyond that, the argument that we are obliged to give speakers a platform even if we are opposed to those views violates not only free speech but freedom of association - the point of nobody owes you a soapbox is that nobody is obliged to put their imprimatur on your words other than they want to.
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:50 PM on May 24, 2023 [4 favorites]
How many times do we have to be subjected to the same assholes spouting the same horseshit before someone just puts their foot down and says "No. We're no longer entertaining 'rational discussions' of whether gay people should be allowed to exist or poor people deserve it or the media is biased against reporting Black-on-white crime."?
Because that makes it forbidden and therefore enticing. Yes, it's exhausting to having to keep pointing out what pieces of shit certain people are, and how wrong-headed certain arguments are, but the minute those people and that speech are forbidden, then it lends them credence.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 1:59 PM on May 24, 2023
Because that makes it forbidden and therefore enticing. Yes, it's exhausting to having to keep pointing out what pieces of shit certain people are, and how wrong-headed certain arguments are, but the minute those people and that speech are forbidden, then it lends them credence.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 1:59 PM on May 24, 2023
How many times do we have to be subjected to the same assholes spouting the same horseshit before someone just puts their foot down and says "No. We're no longer entertaining 'rational discussions' of whether gay people should be allowed to exist or poor people deserve it or the media is biased against reporting Black-on-white crime."?
For so long as we (that is, the rest of us) keep electing them to Congress and putting them on the courts.
posted by snuffleupagus at 2:03 PM on May 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
For so long as we (that is, the rest of us) keep electing them to Congress and putting them on the courts.
posted by snuffleupagus at 2:03 PM on May 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
Because that makes it forbidden and therefore enticing. Yes, it's exhausting to having to keep pointing out what pieces of shit certain people are, and how wrong-headed certain arguments are, but the minute those people and that speech are forbidden, then it lends them credence.
gotta love constantly having to keep an eye out for discussions as to whether i as a person deserve to exist as a person
"exhausting" is such a nice way of putting it
you know what also lends credence to pieces of shit and wrong-headed arguments? giving them a platform and treating them as if they're serious, valid ideas. because that's certainly what happened with basically every fucking awful thing being said about trans people the last few years, and now we see "allies" echoing many of those garbage points and calling it "nuance"
posted by i used to be someone else at 2:09 PM on May 24, 2023 [12 favorites]
gotta love constantly having to keep an eye out for discussions as to whether i as a person deserve to exist as a person
"exhausting" is such a nice way of putting it
you know what also lends credence to pieces of shit and wrong-headed arguments? giving them a platform and treating them as if they're serious, valid ideas. because that's certainly what happened with basically every fucking awful thing being said about trans people the last few years, and now we see "allies" echoing many of those garbage points and calling it "nuance"
posted by i used to be someone else at 2:09 PM on May 24, 2023 [12 favorites]
Yes, it's exhausting to having to keep pointing out what pieces of shit certain people are, and how wrong-headed certain arguments are, but the minute those people and that speech are forbidden, then it lends them credence.
If that was really, truly the case, then you wouldn't see them constantly trying to leech off the legitimacy of institutions to prop their positions up. Also, I notice that you're not saying that we should give cranks a fair hearing, even though your argument is just as applicable there - which sort of undercuts the whole argument.
posted by NoxAeternum at 3:32 PM on May 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
If that was really, truly the case, then you wouldn't see them constantly trying to leech off the legitimacy of institutions to prop their positions up. Also, I notice that you're not saying that we should give cranks a fair hearing, even though your argument is just as applicable there - which sort of undercuts the whole argument.
posted by NoxAeternum at 3:32 PM on May 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
> Like, a bunch of rich people who have just enough shame not to go full MAGA have a happy hour.
The owner of the Comedy Cellar never paid for me and my friends' booze.
posted by The corpse in the library at 5:51 PM on May 24, 2023
The owner of the Comedy Cellar never paid for me and my friends' booze.
posted by The corpse in the library at 5:51 PM on May 24, 2023
a nuanced view, based in biology, of why it might be problematic
OH! Is this an entirely new, biologically based reason why trans women aren't women enough to compete? Or is this one of the same fucking biologically based reasons why trans women aren't women enough to compete I've been forced to read through over and over and over and over again for the past few years?
I would *love* to add a new one to the list.
posted by tigrrrlily at 6:31 PM on May 24, 2023 [14 favorites]
" Because that makes it forbidden and therefore enticing. Yes, it's exhausting to having to keep pointing out what pieces of shit certain people are, and how wrong-headed certain arguments are, but the minute those people and that speech are forbidden, then it lends them credence."
But they are not forbidden. These people are not being censored. They are simply deeply unpopular and some sufficiently large chunk of the public has judged their beliefs to be repellent enough that it is not worth anyone's while to platform them.
We are supposed to think that people who have unpopular opinions are suffering something more than the righteous judgement of the public. They are not.
Further, the reason forbidden fruit is attractive is that it is sweet and delicious. The reason we tried to get our grubby hands on porn when it was harder to get is we had libidos and desire motivating us to see naked people and fucking. It is not the forbidding that provides the attraction but the qualities of the thing being forbidden. Again, this is some handwaving. I don't buy it.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 7:17 PM on May 24, 2023 [7 favorites]
But they are not forbidden. These people are not being censored. They are simply deeply unpopular and some sufficiently large chunk of the public has judged their beliefs to be repellent enough that it is not worth anyone's while to platform them.
We are supposed to think that people who have unpopular opinions are suffering something more than the righteous judgement of the public. They are not.
Further, the reason forbidden fruit is attractive is that it is sweet and delicious. The reason we tried to get our grubby hands on porn when it was harder to get is we had libidos and desire motivating us to see naked people and fucking. It is not the forbidding that provides the attraction but the qualities of the thing being forbidden. Again, this is some handwaving. I don't buy it.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 7:17 PM on May 24, 2023 [7 favorites]
(If I actually could cancel a rhetorical strategy, it would be the claim that lack of a private platform is equivalent to state suppression of speech .)
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 7:19 PM on May 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 7:19 PM on May 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
The funny thing is, this lot would be the same kinds of people that would consider people like me "thought criminals" because how dare we speak up about our own marginalisation as queer/trans/POC/disabled/migrant people
posted by creatrixtiara at 8:51 PM on May 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by creatrixtiara at 8:51 PM on May 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
By the way, Glass Onion is a fine movie related to this topic.
posted by AlSweigart at 11:23 PM on May 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by AlSweigart at 11:23 PM on May 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
They have the absolute most retrograde, conventional views you can imagine and they need to be praised for them; they want to believe they're iconoclasts demonstrating incisive wit and producing sparkling gems of conversation and they are absolutely the dullest people in the world. It's like how Elon Musk's fondest dream is to be able to post but he can't, these people want to believe they are hosting intellectual little salons but they don't have anything interesting to say so they create the form without the substance and they lack the insight to see the difference.
God, yes.
It's not like they have genuinely oddball (if potentially offensive) opinions like that the Dutch hatch out of thick, leathery eggs, or that Latina women make superior astronauts, or they're actual Throne and Altar monarchists. Or even that they're radical empty-the-cities chairman-Bob anarchists. Say what you will about Crazy Nick Land, at least he isn't boring! Or anything like that! I know that I am not the only who saw the headline and knew exactly which opinions these people hold.
I wrote the following line before reading the article, let's see how it stacks up:
The opinions they have are basically: don't like trans people / trans self-id *or* have weird eugenics ideas which may or may not be tied up with race (they usually are!).
After reading - ok, also a professor who was banging a student, great.
That's it. That's the extent of the debate.
posted by atrazine at 5:31 AM on May 25, 2023 [14 favorites]
God, yes.
It's not like they have genuinely oddball (if potentially offensive) opinions like that the Dutch hatch out of thick, leathery eggs, or that Latina women make superior astronauts, or they're actual Throne and Altar monarchists. Or even that they're radical empty-the-cities chairman-Bob anarchists. Say what you will about Crazy Nick Land, at least he isn't boring! Or anything like that! I know that I am not the only who saw the headline and knew exactly which opinions these people hold.
I wrote the following line before reading the article, let's see how it stacks up:
The opinions they have are basically: don't like trans people / trans self-id *or* have weird eugenics ideas which may or may not be tied up with race (they usually are!).
After reading - ok, also a professor who was banging a student, great.
That's it. That's the extent of the debate.
posted by atrazine at 5:31 AM on May 25, 2023 [14 favorites]
The current base of the Republican Party is people who are mad that their grandkids aren't coming to see them for Thanksgiving anymore and it must be someone else's fault. Just swap in "peers" for "grandkids" and "dinner parties" for "Thanksgiving" and you get these intellectual beacons. It's all whining about how they suffer for annoying people with the same boring takes their parents used to issue forth over cigars and brandy.
posted by Etrigan at 6:14 AM on May 25, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by Etrigan at 6:14 AM on May 25, 2023 [10 favorites]
The fact that Emma Green wrote this tells me all I need to know.
posted by oneirodynia at 11:18 AM on May 25, 2023
posted by oneirodynia at 11:18 AM on May 25, 2023
but the minute those people and that speech are forbidden, then it lends them credence.
As everyone has pointed out, their speech is not forbidden. But they definitely do buy into the greivance-martyr economy. That's why all these people bleat constantly about "cancel culture"- by pretending it's a real thing they have a framework to complain. Anyone who argues with them is a whining snowflake and anyone who says "I'm not going to listen to your bullshit" is tromping on their rights. It means they never ever have to listen to anyone else's opinion or facts, and feeds their sense of self. It's best not to pay attention to them specifically while working to make sure the things they advocate for do not come to fruition.
posted by oneirodynia at 11:30 AM on May 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
As everyone has pointed out, their speech is not forbidden. But they definitely do buy into the greivance-martyr economy. That's why all these people bleat constantly about "cancel culture"- by pretending it's a real thing they have a framework to complain. Anyone who argues with them is a whining snowflake and anyone who says "I'm not going to listen to your bullshit" is tromping on their rights. It means they never ever have to listen to anyone else's opinion or facts, and feeds their sense of self. It's best not to pay attention to them specifically while working to make sure the things they advocate for do not come to fruition.
posted by oneirodynia at 11:30 AM on May 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
"the answer to bad/hate speech is more/better speech" fails as a principle
It fails as a principle of social philosophy, as does a lot of jurisprudence when overextended in that way (whether on the First Amendment, or otherwise).
Legal solutions to social problems are often unsatisfactory, as the legal system is a part of the superstructure. 'The law, in its majestic equality,' etc.
posted by snuffleupagus at 12:02 PM on May 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
It fails as a principle of social philosophy, as does a lot of jurisprudence when overextended in that way (whether on the First Amendment, or otherwise).
Legal solutions to social problems are often unsatisfactory, as the legal system is a part of the superstructure. 'The law, in its majestic equality,' etc.
posted by snuffleupagus at 12:02 PM on May 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
but the minute those people and that speech are forbidden, then it lends them credence.
A lot of these people are doing the cancellation equivalent of a soccer flop, like "how dare they ratio me on Twitter."
posted by Selena777 at 8:31 AM on May 26, 2023 [4 favorites]
A lot of these people are doing the cancellation equivalent of a soccer flop, like "how dare they ratio me on Twitter."
posted by Selena777 at 8:31 AM on May 26, 2023 [4 favorites]
1) People actually make blankets out of chinchillas.
Now I want to know if they clean them with dust.
posted by srboisvert at 4:12 PM on May 26, 2023
Now I want to know if they clean them with dust.
posted by srboisvert at 4:12 PM on May 26, 2023
In 2017, Louis C.K. apologized for abusing his power as a high-profile comic in order to masturbate in front of female comedians, and was subsequently dropped by Netflix, HBO, FX, and his management agency.This is an interesting way to phrase it, like he just apologized out of the blue.
posted by RobotHero at 5:53 PM on May 27, 2023 [7 favorites]
You can get his 2020 special via Apple or Amazon.
posted by Artw at 6:37 PM on May 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 6:37 PM on May 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
This guy will probably be turning up next time they meet.
posted by Artw at 6:47 PM on May 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 6:47 PM on May 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
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(On a less snarky note, I highly recommend following Michael Hobbes, either on Twitter or through his various podcasts/podcast appearances for his pointed eviscerations of this particular grift).
posted by ActionPopulated at 11:00 AM on May 23, 2023 [95 favorites]