Another Week of Police Brutality
June 22, 2023 9:45 AM Subscribe
The Justice Department’s report [on Minneapolis PD] was almost uniformly critical, painting a disturbing portrait of a dysfunctional law enforcement agency where illegal conduct was common, racism was pervasive and misconduct was tolerated. Minneapolis Police Used Illegal, Abusive Practices for Years, Justice Dept. Finds
In the Third Precinct, where many Native Americans live, the cops used force 69 percent more often during stops with Native Americans than in similar stops with white people from 2020 to 2022. They were 49 percent more likely to use force against Black people in the area.
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Here Are the Most Significant Findings Against the Minneapolis Police
After Mr. Floyd’s murder, investigators said, Minneapolis “officers suddenly stopped reporting race and gender in a large number of stops” despite a department requirement to collect that information. About 71 percent of traffic stops before Mr. Floyd’s death had race data, compared with about 35 percent after. [...]
Officers under investigation for serious misconduct were sometimes assigned to train new recruits, the report found. Some field training officers, they found, “violated a person’s rights while training a new officer.”
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The DOJ Barely Scratched the Surface of Minneapolis Police Thuggery
As the historian Michael J. Lansing of Augsburg University in Minneapolis has shown, the dominant Democrat-Farmer-Labor Party has felt hamstrung by its alliance with organized labor when it came to contending with the powerful and politically conservative Police Officers Federation. The union’s president at the time of George Floyd’s murder, Bob Kroll, was an ardent public supporter of Donald Trump.
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Minneapolis Police Union President: “I’ve Been Involved in Three Shootings Myself, and Not a One of Them Has Bothered Me”
Kroll clocked at least 20 internal affairs complaints during his three decades in the Minneapolis Police Department, “all but three of which were closed without discipline.” There have also been several lawsuits against Kroll, detailing a long history of allegations of bigoted comments, including one that accused him of using excessive force against an elderly couple during a no-knock raid and another that accused him of “beating, choking, and kicking” a biracial 15-year-old boy while “spewing racial slurs.”
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Investigation of the City of Minneapolis and the Minneapolis Police Department [pdf]
In recent years, MPD has expanded its training on the duty to intervene. However, we saw numerous incidents in which MPD officers could have intervened to stop unconstitutional uses of force, but did not.
Indeed, years before Derek Chauvin murdered George Floyd, multiple other MPD officers stood by as Mr. Chauvin used excessive force on other occasions and did not stop him.
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How to actually stop police brutality, according to science
Training is a nebulous concept with little oversight, and departments don't necessarily turn to evidence-based programs. In 2017, for example, Fox 9 reported that the St. Paul Police Department's "main attraction" in its annual equity training was watching the children's movie "Zootopia." There are also questions about the efficacy of methods like implicit bias training, in part because of a lack of standards for these training methods and in part because the lessons may not translate to stressful circumstances, as The Atlantic reported in 2017.
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Did Anthony Hill have to die?
Up until the day he first saw Anthony Hill, and despite responding to literally thousands of calls during the past seven years, Olsen had never once discharged his weapon in the line of duty. In fact, up until that day, he’d never even drawn his weapon on a suspect. As for his Taser, he’d deployed it just once, and it had not functioned properly.
Indeed, what’s notable about Olsen’s seven years as a DeKalb County cop is just how much training he had—1,948 hours from 2008 through 2014. While almost a thousand of those hours came during his first-year academy training, starting in 2009, he averaged more than 150 hours of training every year. For an officer to remain certified by the Georgia Peace Officer Standards and Training Council, it’s necessary to take at least 20 hours of training annually.
---
'Implicit Bias' Trainings Don't Actually Change Police Behavior
“We don’t have any evidence that anti-bias trainings work (in general,) and we know even less about whether they work for police officers,” said Joshua Correll, a University of Colorado professor who has been studying implicit bias for more than 20 years.
A 2016 study of nine different methods for reducing bias found that none had any lasting effect after a few days. Few researchers have followed up specifically with law enforcement agencies to see if the training had any effect on the practices of officers.
---
In other news
Atlanta clerk approves 'Cop City' referendum petition days after lawsuit filed alleging 'unnecessary' delays
Once the petition is approved, organizers have just 60 days to collect the approximately 75,000 signatures needed to get the referendum on the ballot. But the two-week delay has eaten up about five to seven days of that 60-day period.
California Gov. Newsom proposes end to public disclosure of police misconduct records
The Newsom administration now wants to get rid of that transparency element. The commission says the public could still get the records from police departments. But advocates say local police departments often resist releasing that information.
Revealing police brutality, discrimination, secret raises: NJ OPRA made these stories possible
Four bills introduced in the state Assembly that would make significant changes to New Jersey’s Open Public Records Act has alarmed transparency advocates and could have a profound impact on the ability of journalists and lawyers to hold local and state government officials accountable.
Men claim police brutality amid federal investigation into officers in Mount Carmel
A federal grand jury indicted current officer 34-year-old Kyle Schauer, former officer 35-year-old Jonathan Mchugh, who left the force in November of 2022, and 51-year-old former Lieutenant David Donkohick, who retired in early 2022.
The indictment alleges they beat, punched, kicked, tased, and body-slammed people they arrested between 2018 and 2022.
Trial begins in case of ex-Mami Gardens officer accused of police brutality
"The defendant, that man at that table while holding one of her arms with his hand, puts his knee on her neck while she was on her back and her stomach is only covered by this thin piece of material but his actions do not stop there," said a prosecutor.
Michigan cop charged after video shows him punching teen and slamming his head into floor
As the officer stands and goes toward a printer in his office, he appears to exchange words with the suspect, although the video has no audio.
The much bigger cop then suddenly swings his outstretched right hand to smack the suspect in the face, sending him wheeling into the wall.
America’s Policing System Goes Beyond A Few Bad Apples – It’s Rotten To The Core
In 2022, U.S. law enforcement killed at least 1,200 people, the deadliest year on record.
In the Third Precinct, where many Native Americans live, the cops used force 69 percent more often during stops with Native Americans than in similar stops with white people from 2020 to 2022. They were 49 percent more likely to use force against Black people in the area.
---
Here Are the Most Significant Findings Against the Minneapolis Police
After Mr. Floyd’s murder, investigators said, Minneapolis “officers suddenly stopped reporting race and gender in a large number of stops” despite a department requirement to collect that information. About 71 percent of traffic stops before Mr. Floyd’s death had race data, compared with about 35 percent after. [...]
Officers under investigation for serious misconduct were sometimes assigned to train new recruits, the report found. Some field training officers, they found, “violated a person’s rights while training a new officer.”
---
The DOJ Barely Scratched the Surface of Minneapolis Police Thuggery
As the historian Michael J. Lansing of Augsburg University in Minneapolis has shown, the dominant Democrat-Farmer-Labor Party has felt hamstrung by its alliance with organized labor when it came to contending with the powerful and politically conservative Police Officers Federation. The union’s president at the time of George Floyd’s murder, Bob Kroll, was an ardent public supporter of Donald Trump.
---
Minneapolis Police Union President: “I’ve Been Involved in Three Shootings Myself, and Not a One of Them Has Bothered Me”
Kroll clocked at least 20 internal affairs complaints during his three decades in the Minneapolis Police Department, “all but three of which were closed without discipline.” There have also been several lawsuits against Kroll, detailing a long history of allegations of bigoted comments, including one that accused him of using excessive force against an elderly couple during a no-knock raid and another that accused him of “beating, choking, and kicking” a biracial 15-year-old boy while “spewing racial slurs.”
---
Investigation of the City of Minneapolis and the Minneapolis Police Department [pdf]
In recent years, MPD has expanded its training on the duty to intervene. However, we saw numerous incidents in which MPD officers could have intervened to stop unconstitutional uses of force, but did not.
Indeed, years before Derek Chauvin murdered George Floyd, multiple other MPD officers stood by as Mr. Chauvin used excessive force on other occasions and did not stop him.
---
How to actually stop police brutality, according to science
Training is a nebulous concept with little oversight, and departments don't necessarily turn to evidence-based programs. In 2017, for example, Fox 9 reported that the St. Paul Police Department's "main attraction" in its annual equity training was watching the children's movie "Zootopia." There are also questions about the efficacy of methods like implicit bias training, in part because of a lack of standards for these training methods and in part because the lessons may not translate to stressful circumstances, as The Atlantic reported in 2017.
---
Did Anthony Hill have to die?
Up until the day he first saw Anthony Hill, and despite responding to literally thousands of calls during the past seven years, Olsen had never once discharged his weapon in the line of duty. In fact, up until that day, he’d never even drawn his weapon on a suspect. As for his Taser, he’d deployed it just once, and it had not functioned properly.
Indeed, what’s notable about Olsen’s seven years as a DeKalb County cop is just how much training he had—1,948 hours from 2008 through 2014. While almost a thousand of those hours came during his first-year academy training, starting in 2009, he averaged more than 150 hours of training every year. For an officer to remain certified by the Georgia Peace Officer Standards and Training Council, it’s necessary to take at least 20 hours of training annually.
---
'Implicit Bias' Trainings Don't Actually Change Police Behavior
“We don’t have any evidence that anti-bias trainings work (in general,) and we know even less about whether they work for police officers,” said Joshua Correll, a University of Colorado professor who has been studying implicit bias for more than 20 years.
A 2016 study of nine different methods for reducing bias found that none had any lasting effect after a few days. Few researchers have followed up specifically with law enforcement agencies to see if the training had any effect on the practices of officers.
---
In other news
Atlanta clerk approves 'Cop City' referendum petition days after lawsuit filed alleging 'unnecessary' delays
Once the petition is approved, organizers have just 60 days to collect the approximately 75,000 signatures needed to get the referendum on the ballot. But the two-week delay has eaten up about five to seven days of that 60-day period.
California Gov. Newsom proposes end to public disclosure of police misconduct records
The Newsom administration now wants to get rid of that transparency element. The commission says the public could still get the records from police departments. But advocates say local police departments often resist releasing that information.
Revealing police brutality, discrimination, secret raises: NJ OPRA made these stories possible
Four bills introduced in the state Assembly that would make significant changes to New Jersey’s Open Public Records Act has alarmed transparency advocates and could have a profound impact on the ability of journalists and lawyers to hold local and state government officials accountable.
Men claim police brutality amid federal investigation into officers in Mount Carmel
A federal grand jury indicted current officer 34-year-old Kyle Schauer, former officer 35-year-old Jonathan Mchugh, who left the force in November of 2022, and 51-year-old former Lieutenant David Donkohick, who retired in early 2022.
The indictment alleges they beat, punched, kicked, tased, and body-slammed people they arrested between 2018 and 2022.
Trial begins in case of ex-Mami Gardens officer accused of police brutality
"The defendant, that man at that table while holding one of her arms with his hand, puts his knee on her neck while she was on her back and her stomach is only covered by this thin piece of material but his actions do not stop there," said a prosecutor.
Michigan cop charged after video shows him punching teen and slamming his head into floor
As the officer stands and goes toward a printer in his office, he appears to exchange words with the suspect, although the video has no audio.
The much bigger cop then suddenly swings his outstretched right hand to smack the suspect in the face, sending him wheeling into the wall.
America’s Policing System Goes Beyond A Few Bad Apples – It’s Rotten To The Core
In 2022, U.S. law enforcement killed at least 1,200 people, the deadliest year on record.
I'm curious how many decibels will register when the entire population of Minneapolis all says "no shit" at the same time.
I suspect it'll be a lot less than the entire population. In 2021, in the wake of George Floyd's murder by Minneapolis police officers, the city voted on whether to replace the MPD with a Department of Public Safety overseen by the city council. It was rejected 56% - 44%.
In the run-up to the election, polls found that the MPD had a 33% favorable rating (with only a bare majority having a specifically unfavorable view of the MPD), and the chief of police had a 55% favorable rating.
Hopefully this report moves the needle, but it's likely that a lot of Minneapolis residents will need to change their minds before there can be meaningful change.
I suspect that if similar reviews were conducted in a random sample of small, medium, and large US cities, that broadly similar levels of violent and abusive police lawlessness would be found across the board.
posted by jedicus at 10:00 AM on June 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
I suspect it'll be a lot less than the entire population. In 2021, in the wake of George Floyd's murder by Minneapolis police officers, the city voted on whether to replace the MPD with a Department of Public Safety overseen by the city council. It was rejected 56% - 44%.
In the run-up to the election, polls found that the MPD had a 33% favorable rating (with only a bare majority having a specifically unfavorable view of the MPD), and the chief of police had a 55% favorable rating.
Hopefully this report moves the needle, but it's likely that a lot of Minneapolis residents will need to change their minds before there can be meaningful change.
I suspect that if similar reviews were conducted in a random sample of small, medium, and large US cities, that broadly similar levels of violent and abusive police lawlessness would be found across the board.
posted by jedicus at 10:00 AM on June 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
I live in Minneapolis.
Both the city council and the mayor have gone directly against the expressed will of the majority on police matters multiple times since 2020.
There were a series of hurried, sneaky local hearings about whether to rebuild the 3rd Precinct, for instance, and the response was massive and negative - people did not want a new precinct building here. (I live right near the building, although I found out about the hearings too late to go.) The mayor literally said that despite the expressed will of residents, he was going to go ahead and rebuilt the precinct.
Far from twiddling our thumbs on police matters, Minneapolis residents have repeatedly voted for the left-most city council members and repeatedly made our will known to the mayor (on this issue, on housing, on rent control, on pollution) and our elected representatives have gone directly against the things we elected them to do.
No city is 100% left, no left community is 100% radical, no group with radical ideas is 100% mobilized on the ground. But Minneapolis is in fact a pretty left leaning city. I voted for two left city functionaries, both of whom got elected and immediately buddied up with the cops and started working to demolish our last remaining public housing.
If you're going to blame residents for the condition of the cops, you need to blame them for not being able to mobilize to get around the mayor and the council, not blame them for supporting police brutality.
Note that the cops are heavily armed, they have a lot of money and they are buddied up with the developers. It's democracy that is failing here, not popular sentiment.
posted by Frowner at 10:17 AM on June 22, 2023 [33 favorites]
Both the city council and the mayor have gone directly against the expressed will of the majority on police matters multiple times since 2020.
There were a series of hurried, sneaky local hearings about whether to rebuild the 3rd Precinct, for instance, and the response was massive and negative - people did not want a new precinct building here. (I live right near the building, although I found out about the hearings too late to go.) The mayor literally said that despite the expressed will of residents, he was going to go ahead and rebuilt the precinct.
Far from twiddling our thumbs on police matters, Minneapolis residents have repeatedly voted for the left-most city council members and repeatedly made our will known to the mayor (on this issue, on housing, on rent control, on pollution) and our elected representatives have gone directly against the things we elected them to do.
No city is 100% left, no left community is 100% radical, no group with radical ideas is 100% mobilized on the ground. But Minneapolis is in fact a pretty left leaning city. I voted for two left city functionaries, both of whom got elected and immediately buddied up with the cops and started working to demolish our last remaining public housing.
If you're going to blame residents for the condition of the cops, you need to blame them for not being able to mobilize to get around the mayor and the council, not blame them for supporting police brutality.
Note that the cops are heavily armed, they have a lot of money and they are buddied up with the developers. It's democracy that is failing here, not popular sentiment.
posted by Frowner at 10:17 AM on June 22, 2023 [33 favorites]
jedicus: " In 2021, in the wake of George Floyd's murder by Minneapolis police officers, the city voted on whether to replace the MPD with a Department of Public Safety overseen by the city council. It was rejected 56% - 44%."
As a 3rd Precinct resident, I was FUCKING DISAPPOINTED by that outcome. I'm South Minneapolis, I'm a white guy, it's by and large a pretty white neighborhood, but I was disappointed. Whole lot of "Black Lives Matter" signs in people's lawns, but showing up to put your money where your mouth is? Not so much.
I don't have a BLM sign up. On purpose. It makes it far too easy to look at the sign and say "Welp I did my part" and assuage my own guilt. Signs are fine, action matters. Our family shows up at the polls, and we for goddamn sure voted in favor of a DPS instead of a PD.
The idea of having mental health professionals respond to calls was dismissed as pointless. My own father-in-law, a retired cop, argued that "no one will work for what they are paying" and "it won't work". Except, it's working, and the DOJ pointed out that it's working.
The idea of a DPS instead of a PD? People interpreted it as "no cops, total chaos". My brother told me "good luck living in a city without cops, enjoy the rampant crime sprees". Guess what? We didn't get a DPS, but we did get a rampant refusal to police. Major uptick in people deciding to behave like total assholes. Car thefts, break-ins, high speed driving on residential streets, people blowing through stop signs and red lights because they know the cops are not paying attention - either too many quit or they just don't care. And you know what? The ones who quit because of the abolish the cops movement? Fuck them. Any cop who doesn't want to work in a community that might take the unthinkable step of holding them accountable? I don't fucking want those people carrying a gun in my city. If you are so afraid that you might face even a tiny bit of scrutiny that you'd rather leave, then don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.
posted by caution live frogs at 10:24 AM on June 22, 2023 [20 favorites]
As a 3rd Precinct resident, I was FUCKING DISAPPOINTED by that outcome. I'm South Minneapolis, I'm a white guy, it's by and large a pretty white neighborhood, but I was disappointed. Whole lot of "Black Lives Matter" signs in people's lawns, but showing up to put your money where your mouth is? Not so much.
I don't have a BLM sign up. On purpose. It makes it far too easy to look at the sign and say "Welp I did my part" and assuage my own guilt. Signs are fine, action matters. Our family shows up at the polls, and we for goddamn sure voted in favor of a DPS instead of a PD.
The idea of having mental health professionals respond to calls was dismissed as pointless. My own father-in-law, a retired cop, argued that "no one will work for what they are paying" and "it won't work". Except, it's working, and the DOJ pointed out that it's working.
The idea of a DPS instead of a PD? People interpreted it as "no cops, total chaos". My brother told me "good luck living in a city without cops, enjoy the rampant crime sprees". Guess what? We didn't get a DPS, but we did get a rampant refusal to police. Major uptick in people deciding to behave like total assholes. Car thefts, break-ins, high speed driving on residential streets, people blowing through stop signs and red lights because they know the cops are not paying attention - either too many quit or they just don't care. And you know what? The ones who quit because of the abolish the cops movement? Fuck them. Any cop who doesn't want to work in a community that might take the unthinkable step of holding them accountable? I don't fucking want those people carrying a gun in my city. If you are so afraid that you might face even a tiny bit of scrutiny that you'd rather leave, then don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.
posted by caution live frogs at 10:24 AM on June 22, 2023 [20 favorites]
Abolition is the only way forward.
posted by ob1quixote at 10:25 AM on June 22, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by ob1quixote at 10:25 AM on June 22, 2023 [7 favorites]
at least here in Atlanta, local media has been all about portraying a huge spike in crime rates and how unsafe the city is during COVID. if you look at the actual rates on APD, you'll see small increases in larceny along with alarming % rises in crimes like murder which reflect a difference between zero and a single murder along with a quick reduction in rates in subsequent years following no real changes to officer benefits, etc
which is to say the mass of people watching local news, seeing individual reports on individual crimes will think it's increased and that APD is necessary because of that bias - it's unsurprising to me that Minneapolis residents of the predominantly white, middle and upper income sort felt the same way in the polling
when I've done canvassing on issues related to police brutality, most people were indifferent, a scarce few were super supportive, and then there were just a lot of people of the 'fiscally conservative, I own a small biz' sort who wanted nothing but constant police patrols. these people you see commenting a lot on NextDoor and even in our local FB groups though the FB groups tend to lean more left here but even then, most of the abolitionist posting comes from younger folks and activists
organizing circles here are either older hippy and labor organizers, younger newcomers, or queer or BIPOC of all types. if you squint hard enough, you might see a single Gen Xer in the mix and they'll usually be the ED of some non-profit that just wants to have a 'conversation' and want a permit along with police escorts for protests (looking at you, moveon.org people)
posted by paimapi at 10:25 AM on June 22, 2023 [4 favorites]
which is to say the mass of people watching local news, seeing individual reports on individual crimes will think it's increased and that APD is necessary because of that bias - it's unsurprising to me that Minneapolis residents of the predominantly white, middle and upper income sort felt the same way in the polling
when I've done canvassing on issues related to police brutality, most people were indifferent, a scarce few were super supportive, and then there were just a lot of people of the 'fiscally conservative, I own a small biz' sort who wanted nothing but constant police patrols. these people you see commenting a lot on NextDoor and even in our local FB groups though the FB groups tend to lean more left here but even then, most of the abolitionist posting comes from younger folks and activists
organizing circles here are either older hippy and labor organizers, younger newcomers, or queer or BIPOC of all types. if you squint hard enough, you might see a single Gen Xer in the mix and they'll usually be the ED of some non-profit that just wants to have a 'conversation' and want a permit along with police escorts for protests (looking at you, moveon.org people)
posted by paimapi at 10:25 AM on June 22, 2023 [4 favorites]
Yeah, I don't see a way forward without blowing it all up and starting over. I'd guess there's maybe 10-20% of officers on the current force who'd be worth rehiring--that little sliver who actually want to do the job right but don't see any way forward other than martyrdom.
I have no faith in a consent decree; it's only going to apply more rules to a department that clearly doesn't give a shit about the rules.
posted by Ickster at 11:06 AM on June 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
I have no faith in a consent decree; it's only going to apply more rules to a department that clearly doesn't give a shit about the rules.
posted by Ickster at 11:06 AM on June 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
2021 was the year of the big pushback against BLM and defund, with lots of scare pieces across the country about how crime in downtown [your area] was rampant due to defunding (that never actually happened).
I wonder how many people who were pushing that narrative will be admitting the BLM and defund folks were right.
posted by Artw at 11:08 AM on June 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
I wonder how many people who were pushing that narrative will be admitting the BLM and defund folks were right.
posted by Artw at 11:08 AM on June 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
It is once again important to remember that the police is a political entity concerned with maintaining and gaining power, and not the public servants that everybody likes to pretend they are. They are not beholden to us and the job that they do is not the one that we see on TV.
posted by Jon_Evil at 11:50 AM on June 22, 2023 [12 favorites]
posted by Jon_Evil at 11:50 AM on June 22, 2023 [12 favorites]
“We Need To Rethink Justice”—Andrewism, 21 June 2023
posted by ob1quixote at 12:35 PM on June 22, 2023
posted by ob1quixote at 12:35 PM on June 22, 2023
I read the whole report a few days ago - it was shocking. During Chauvin’s trial for the murder of George Floyd, he was also convicted of a violent incident from several years ago that had never been reported or addressed. The gist of it was he beat a 14-year-old boy multiple times with a flashlight in his own home in front of his mother. Then the one-trick-pony-with-a-badge knelt on the kids’ back/neck for 15 minutes.
The level of blatant disregard for any type of policies, accountability or even basic human dignity is appalling.
posted by bendy at 2:47 PM on June 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
The level of blatant disregard for any type of policies, accountability or even basic human dignity is appalling.
posted by bendy at 2:47 PM on June 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
I'm curious how many decibels will register when the entire population of Minneapolis all says "no shit" at the same time.
I'm sorry, I must have fainted when I inhaled too hard to scream "no fucking shit". I'm awake now.
I know I'm not the only Minneapolitan who has complained about the utter failure of the police department for decades now. We knew about them back in the 80s. Hearing about and seeing the blatant racism and penchant for violence they've shown first hand was something that was real eye opening to a 17 year old Sphinx.
This report has been making the rounds amongst people I know and someone mentioned that it was so cathartic to hear that not only was she right, but her mom and grandma were right. To me it felt like something I'd always known and assumed everybody else knew it too, but when you see in black and white a report from the freaking Justice Department talking about atrocious behavior on ride-alongs and showing the day to day terrorizing they do to the average citizen, it brings it home in a way that I never thought it would.
posted by Sphinx at 3:31 PM on June 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
I'm sorry, I must have fainted when I inhaled too hard to scream "no fucking shit". I'm awake now.
I know I'm not the only Minneapolitan who has complained about the utter failure of the police department for decades now. We knew about them back in the 80s. Hearing about and seeing the blatant racism and penchant for violence they've shown first hand was something that was real eye opening to a 17 year old Sphinx.
This report has been making the rounds amongst people I know and someone mentioned that it was so cathartic to hear that not only was she right, but her mom and grandma were right. To me it felt like something I'd always known and assumed everybody else knew it too, but when you see in black and white a report from the freaking Justice Department talking about atrocious behavior on ride-alongs and showing the day to day terrorizing they do to the average citizen, it brings it home in a way that I never thought it would.
posted by Sphinx at 3:31 PM on June 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
Maybe someone smarter than me can find it, but over the last few days, I'd swear I saw a graph demonstrating that 15 times as many people were shot by police in 2022(?) than were killed in mass shootings.
posted by wittgenstein at 5:39 PM on June 22, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by wittgenstein at 5:39 PM on June 22, 2023 [3 favorites]
I’ve seen that before, but I’m not finding it.
Not least because if you plug in the number 15 Google will, not kidding, return dozens of articles on police shooting 15 year olds or shooting people 15 times.
posted by Artw at 5:55 PM on June 22, 2023
Not least because if you plug in the number 15 Google will, not kidding, return dozens of articles on police shooting 15 year olds or shooting people 15 times.
posted by Artw at 5:55 PM on June 22, 2023
There’s this, from 2020: Cops Killed Nearly 13 Times More People Than Mass Shooters
Number of shootings has gone way up lately of course.
posted by Artw at 6:05 PM on June 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
Number of shootings has gone way up lately of course.
posted by Artw at 6:05 PM on June 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
One in 20 US homicides are committed by police – and the numbers aren’t falling
The number of US homicide victims who die in mass shootings each year, for instance, is smaller than the number killed by police. While definitions of “mass shooting” vary, the estimated number of people killed in these incidents have ranged from a few dozen to 700 people a year in recent years.
posted by Artw at 6:45 PM on June 22, 2023 [3 favorites]
The number of US homicide victims who die in mass shootings each year, for instance, is smaller than the number killed by police. While definitions of “mass shooting” vary, the estimated number of people killed in these incidents have ranged from a few dozen to 700 people a year in recent years.
posted by Artw at 6:45 PM on June 22, 2023 [3 favorites]
There’s this, from 2020: Cops Killed Nearly 13 Times More People Than Mass Shooters
Depends on the definition of mass shooting. They cite only 339 people dying in mass shootings between 2015-2019. That seemed small so I took a look around and found another article which puts the number at 1,403. Still only about 1/3 of the number of people killed by cops in the same period, so not good. But I do wonder where that 339 number comes from.
posted by LizBoBiz at 7:50 PM on June 22, 2023
Depends on the definition of mass shooting. They cite only 339 people dying in mass shootings between 2015-2019. That seemed small so I took a look around and found another article which puts the number at 1,403. Still only about 1/3 of the number of people killed by cops in the same period, so not good. But I do wonder where that 339 number comes from.
posted by LizBoBiz at 7:50 PM on June 22, 2023
Both the city council and the mayor have gone directly against the expressed will of the majority on police matters multiple times since 2020.
Frowner, let me start by saying that I'm 100% on your side with this-- the mayor's pro-police stand is so maddening in the face of overwhelming evidence that it's been a deeply dangerous and broken organization for literally decades. However, I think the above statement isn't completely true, at least on the matter of really meaningful change in the MPD.
I really thought that real police reform was a possibility post-George Floyd, but frustratingly it did not gain a majority will on that issue, and it wasn't particularly close. Minneapolis is a deeply segregated city, and underprivileged North Minneapolis along with deeply privileged Southwest Minneapolis voted overwhelmingly to not replace MPD with a better system. People in N Minneapolis live in an area with spiking violent crime, and people in SW Minneapolis are concerned (mostly) about property crime. Both groups were satisfied to stay with the devil they knew.
Mayor Jacob Frey stood literally in the face of a large mass of BLM protesters and told them he was against abolishing police. It was a pretty savvy political move on his part, and I expect he'll get re-elected again. I didn't vote for him before, and I certainly won't vote for him in the future. Abolish Police (and replace with a Dept of Public Safety with a completely different charter) would have been the right thing to do in Minneapolis, but it suffered from terrible messaging.
posted by mcstayinskool at 7:55 AM on June 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
Frowner, let me start by saying that I'm 100% on your side with this-- the mayor's pro-police stand is so maddening in the face of overwhelming evidence that it's been a deeply dangerous and broken organization for literally decades. However, I think the above statement isn't completely true, at least on the matter of really meaningful change in the MPD.
I really thought that real police reform was a possibility post-George Floyd, but frustratingly it did not gain a majority will on that issue, and it wasn't particularly close. Minneapolis is a deeply segregated city, and underprivileged North Minneapolis along with deeply privileged Southwest Minneapolis voted overwhelmingly to not replace MPD with a better system. People in N Minneapolis live in an area with spiking violent crime, and people in SW Minneapolis are concerned (mostly) about property crime. Both groups were satisfied to stay with the devil they knew.
Mayor Jacob Frey stood literally in the face of a large mass of BLM protesters and told them he was against abolishing police. It was a pretty savvy political move on his part, and I expect he'll get re-elected again. I didn't vote for him before, and I certainly won't vote for him in the future. Abolish Police (and replace with a Dept of Public Safety with a completely different charter) would have been the right thing to do in Minneapolis, but it suffered from terrible messaging.
posted by mcstayinskool at 7:55 AM on June 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
But people do definitely want an end to police brutality. There are certainly racist white people here who are happy with the police beating people down, but as a broad generality, even the people who want to keep the police do so because they believe that the police can be reformed. The mayor in particular and the city council often stand in the way of clearly expressed popular wishes for an end to police brutality and corruption.
It is probably true that if you have police in any form we recognize as police you'll have police brutality, but most people haven't thought about it enough to understand that. I don't think I'd thought about it enough to understand it until I was in my thirties and had been to many, many anti-police protests - I still believed that while police abolition would be great, aggressive reform would at least make things tolerable.
People who support having police don't generally support police brutality, or we would not have had massive support for the protests when George Floyd was killed.
An honest and democratic mayor and city council would at the very least attempt to enact genuine reform, even if genuine reform isn't really going to work, because that is what people want.
People here mostly want the usual set of broadly democratic things - affordable housing, an end to police brutality and corruption, good and roughly equal schools, ability to enjoy the city peacefully, etc. Some people are going to be very interested in policy and have a lot of informed opinions about how to achieve these things, but many people will be too busy to do more than support a very broad set of goals.
I was initially objecting to this:
Hopefully this report moves the needle, but it's likely that a lot of Minneapolis residents will need to change their minds before there can be meaningful change.
which suggests that somehow the reason we have brutal, corrupt, racist cops is because the people here have not voted to abolish the police rather than because of a continuous failure of democracy and leadership in this city.
Based on past experience, I can tell you that if the city did somehow "vote to abolish the police", the mayor and the city council would find a way to block that vote, as they have blocked every popular radical measure.
I am not sure what will change things here, honestly. We are living in a backlash to the George Floyd uprising, but the real force behind the backlash isn't random insufficiently radical citizens or even indifferent citizens, it is the developer/tech/medical/banking money, the police union and the mayor.
posted by Frowner at 8:30 AM on June 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
It is probably true that if you have police in any form we recognize as police you'll have police brutality, but most people haven't thought about it enough to understand that. I don't think I'd thought about it enough to understand it until I was in my thirties and had been to many, many anti-police protests - I still believed that while police abolition would be great, aggressive reform would at least make things tolerable.
People who support having police don't generally support police brutality, or we would not have had massive support for the protests when George Floyd was killed.
An honest and democratic mayor and city council would at the very least attempt to enact genuine reform, even if genuine reform isn't really going to work, because that is what people want.
People here mostly want the usual set of broadly democratic things - affordable housing, an end to police brutality and corruption, good and roughly equal schools, ability to enjoy the city peacefully, etc. Some people are going to be very interested in policy and have a lot of informed opinions about how to achieve these things, but many people will be too busy to do more than support a very broad set of goals.
I was initially objecting to this:
Hopefully this report moves the needle, but it's likely that a lot of Minneapolis residents will need to change their minds before there can be meaningful change.
which suggests that somehow the reason we have brutal, corrupt, racist cops is because the people here have not voted to abolish the police rather than because of a continuous failure of democracy and leadership in this city.
Based on past experience, I can tell you that if the city did somehow "vote to abolish the police", the mayor and the city council would find a way to block that vote, as they have blocked every popular radical measure.
I am not sure what will change things here, honestly. We are living in a backlash to the George Floyd uprising, but the real force behind the backlash isn't random insufficiently radical citizens or even indifferent citizens, it is the developer/tech/medical/banking money, the police union and the mayor.
posted by Frowner at 8:30 AM on June 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
The thing about the police, in any city like this, is they are so insulated against any change or consequence , so unwilling to change of their own regard, so protected from any form of civilian oversight, that really is it “defund”/“abolish” or nothing. Literally nothing else is going to change them. They’ve made the extreme option the only option.
posted by Artw at 10:15 AM on June 23, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Artw at 10:15 AM on June 23, 2023 [3 favorites]
I've said this before on here but I think there is also significant symbolic power in abolishing the police and making it clear we're not going to have anything called "police" anymore. That term is synonymous with oppression for a lot of people so even if we're still going to have an organization that does the things we actually want police to do, if it's really different, call it something different.
posted by VTX at 10:25 AM on June 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by VTX at 10:25 AM on June 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
Office of public safety.
posted by Artw at 10:26 AM on June 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 10:26 AM on June 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
or Ministry of Peace? lol
fundamentally there's a hierarchy that's embedded in policing or any kind of 'security' that's the root of the issue. when you're socially conditioned and accepted as someone who has more agency to exert physical power in a localized situation then the temptation to abuse your elevated power will always exist in every situation. a group of bullies that the system allows to physically harm those who don't conform will always drift towards more and more extreme actions - accidents happen and when they do, you retroactively justify it such that the next time it happens, you feel less guilt
the way that law enforcement says, "You don't know what it's like to work my job" is true in the worst kind of way - I don't know what it's like to walk around trained in a myriad ways of harming others to enforce social mores, and I don't know what it's like to be able to do so on most of the days of my life. and I think it's impossible to be human and not to find some ideological reason to justify your place within society. when you craft that ideology to explain your day-to-day experiences, that's just fertile soil for radicalization - you've already started with the us, the in group, versus them, the out group that constitutes literally everyone else
for something like policing to exist in our society in a less unethical way, I think there has to be severe transparency and accountability - there has to be a reason why each and every individual is allowed to exert more physical force in our world than others. in a society like ours, I don't think that will ever be the case - people aren't taught to care that much about their civic life, the functioning of the vast system and the roles they play within it
but in a better world, the ethical practice would be that there exists no reason why any one individual is more justified in inflicting harm onto others, in asserting physical dominance over another. there is no hierarchy, no power over others and the myriad ways of retaining and abusing that power - there simply is no power at all and all those who seek it are ostracized
posted by paimapi at 9:55 PM on June 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
fundamentally there's a hierarchy that's embedded in policing or any kind of 'security' that's the root of the issue. when you're socially conditioned and accepted as someone who has more agency to exert physical power in a localized situation then the temptation to abuse your elevated power will always exist in every situation. a group of bullies that the system allows to physically harm those who don't conform will always drift towards more and more extreme actions - accidents happen and when they do, you retroactively justify it such that the next time it happens, you feel less guilt
the way that law enforcement says, "You don't know what it's like to work my job" is true in the worst kind of way - I don't know what it's like to walk around trained in a myriad ways of harming others to enforce social mores, and I don't know what it's like to be able to do so on most of the days of my life. and I think it's impossible to be human and not to find some ideological reason to justify your place within society. when you craft that ideology to explain your day-to-day experiences, that's just fertile soil for radicalization - you've already started with the us, the in group, versus them, the out group that constitutes literally everyone else
for something like policing to exist in our society in a less unethical way, I think there has to be severe transparency and accountability - there has to be a reason why each and every individual is allowed to exert more physical force in our world than others. in a society like ours, I don't think that will ever be the case - people aren't taught to care that much about their civic life, the functioning of the vast system and the roles they play within it
but in a better world, the ethical practice would be that there exists no reason why any one individual is more justified in inflicting harm onto others, in asserting physical dominance over another. there is no hierarchy, no power over others and the myriad ways of retaining and abusing that power - there simply is no power at all and all those who seek it are ostracized
posted by paimapi at 9:55 PM on June 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
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I'm curious how many decibels will register when the entire population of Minneapolis all says "no shit" at the same time.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:51 AM on June 22, 2023 [4 favorites]