Half of big multinationals plan to cut office space in next three years
June 27, 2023 7:55 PM Subscribe
For all the articles about "back to the office" and all the CEOs pushing that, I just don't think this genie goes back in the bottle.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:37 PM on June 27, 2023 [19 favorites]
posted by Dip Flash at 8:37 PM on June 27, 2023 [19 favorites]
I'm happy to report that the giant organization I work for sent out a notice today saying that 51% of employees are permitted to work a flexible/hybrid/whatever schedule, still. I'm aware some positions here wouldn't/couldn't permit it, and I'm extremely lucky that my management really likes working hybrid and did NOT force my entire group back in person as I would have expected them to. One upper manager travels around to see her out-of-state relatives for weeks on end and can still work.
That said, we seem to be an outlier. The last job I applied for at the org was all, "you have to be in person every day for six months and THEN we'll let you work from home ONE day a week...on your own computer at home with no security," which was ridiculous in an industry with tons of security stuff. I don't see much flexibility being offered in the job listings.
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:51 PM on June 27, 2023 [4 favorites]
That said, we seem to be an outlier. The last job I applied for at the org was all, "you have to be in person every day for six months and THEN we'll let you work from home ONE day a week...on your own computer at home with no security," which was ridiculous in an industry with tons of security stuff. I don't see much flexibility being offered in the job listings.
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:51 PM on June 27, 2023 [4 favorites]
I have always especially enjoyed the "we know that collaboration works better in-person..." line of reasoning.
Oh, you know that, do you? Shall we see your peer-reviewed studies? No? Shall we see any studies at all relevant to our industry? No? Hmm, then perhaps you don't actually know shit, jocko. Perhaps "know" means something different once you reach a sufficient Peter Principle Boss Level? Nah? Didn't think so.
...looking at you Sundar & Tim.
posted by aramaic at 8:56 PM on June 27, 2023 [41 favorites]
Oh, you know that, do you? Shall we see your peer-reviewed studies? No? Shall we see any studies at all relevant to our industry? No? Hmm, then perhaps you don't actually know shit, jocko. Perhaps "know" means something different once you reach a sufficient Peter Principle Boss Level? Nah? Didn't think so.
...looking at you Sundar & Tim.
posted by aramaic at 8:56 PM on June 27, 2023 [41 favorites]
THE single major issue us that of using your own resources for 'the man'. Technically speaking you, as a home based worker, should be able to declare tax breaks for the use of your own resources for you main employment. Large corps do it, self-employed people do it. Anyone with some tax knowledge able to share insights into this as it is a huge issue regarding the space you live in v. the space you work in OR allocate to work during a working day. Electricity, insurance, cables, a.n. other utilities normally utilized at the work place etc. Please expand and explain how this will work for the common working person. Otherwise it is offloading a huge cost onto you the worker bee....
posted by IndelibleUnderpants at 8:58 PM on June 27, 2023 [18 favorites]
posted by IndelibleUnderpants at 8:58 PM on June 27, 2023 [18 favorites]
“Subscribe to unlock this article”
Sure would be nice to be able to RTFA & join the discussion
posted by armoir from antproof case at 9:11 PM on June 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
Sure would be nice to be able to RTFA & join the discussion
posted by armoir from antproof case at 9:11 PM on June 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
I can't access the link and archive.org doesn't seem to work. This Guardian article seems to be fundamentally the same.
I'm a bit doubtful that half of large companies are seeking to continue any level of remote work. I think it's more likely that they've decided to reduce the footprint each worker is allowed to occupy, through evil schemes such as 'hot desking'. Here in Australia, my observation is that most private employers are very handwavy about the actual availability of 'flexible' working arrangements and it's only government agencies that seem to be actually offering such arrangements. Sometimes in concert with and enabled by things like hot desking, so still not all good.
I agree, as a full-time remote worker, about the off-loading of costs onto employees that remote work often entails. I am not provided with any equipment whatsoever by my employer, nor any allowances for providing it myself. There's reasonable advice available from the tax office here (.pdf link) on what you can and can't claim as a remote worker, but even the 'short-cut' method of calculating expenses requires a fair bit of record-keeping, which your employer isn't going to pay you for.
posted by dg at 9:12 PM on June 27, 2023 [5 favorites]
I'm a bit doubtful that half of large companies are seeking to continue any level of remote work. I think it's more likely that they've decided to reduce the footprint each worker is allowed to occupy, through evil schemes such as 'hot desking'. Here in Australia, my observation is that most private employers are very handwavy about the actual availability of 'flexible' working arrangements and it's only government agencies that seem to be actually offering such arrangements. Sometimes in concert with and enabled by things like hot desking, so still not all good.
I agree, as a full-time remote worker, about the off-loading of costs onto employees that remote work often entails. I am not provided with any equipment whatsoever by my employer, nor any allowances for providing it myself. There's reasonable advice available from the tax office here (.pdf link) on what you can and can't claim as a remote worker, but even the 'short-cut' method of calculating expenses requires a fair bit of record-keeping, which your employer isn't going to pay you for.
posted by dg at 9:12 PM on June 27, 2023 [5 favorites]
Thank you gentlyepigrams
posted by armoir from antproof case at 9:13 PM on June 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by armoir from antproof case at 9:13 PM on June 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
Going into an office has such huge costs (clothing, commuting whether transit or car costs or bicycle wear and tear, eating out, parking, needing multiple cars, the unpaid time sink of traveling back and forth, the opportunity costs of not being able to drop a load of laundry/prepare dinner/walk the dog/pet the cat, the cost premium of having to live within commuting distance) that are so high for so many people that while it is grossly unfair these costs are being downloaded many if not most people are going to at least break even if not come out ahead. My spouse for example easily picked up a 6% raise by switching to work from home even if one only considers the immediate daily out of pocket (after tax) costs that were eliminated.
However we also only have to provide conditioned workspace everything else that is needed is supplied by her employer.
posted by Mitheral at 9:17 PM on June 27, 2023 [26 favorites]
However we also only have to provide conditioned workspace everything else that is needed is supplied by her employer.
posted by Mitheral at 9:17 PM on June 27, 2023 [26 favorites]
I broke down and got the smallest possible WeWork space near my house (8x7) office. I just couldn’t do the work from home thing anymore. I felt like I was always at work and couldn’t relax. YMMV but having a separate physical environment for work and home is very soothing for me. WeWork spent all that VC money building out high quality office space with good amenities and is renting it out pretty cheap, so I figure I might as well take advantage while it lasts. I’m not sure if I’m going to be an outlier or just ahead of the curve.
posted by interogative mood at 9:22 PM on June 27, 2023 [25 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 9:22 PM on June 27, 2023 [25 favorites]
Yes, I save well over $100 per week just in train fares compared to my previous job. Not to mention the 2 hours a day spent commuting. I'm sure I come out ahead financially and definitely in terms of time. But there are certainly days where I miss going into the office and there are many days where I don't speak to an actual human - despite not actually liking people all that much, I do feel I could do with more social interaction.
WeWork doesn't have space in my city, although they do where I used to commute to. Dog friendly as well! But $187 a month for shared space? No thanks.
posted by dg at 10:06 PM on June 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
WeWork doesn't have space in my city, although they do where I used to commute to. Dog friendly as well! But $187 a month for shared space? No thanks.
posted by dg at 10:06 PM on June 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
Technically speaking you, as a home based worker, should be able to declare tax breaks for the use of your own resources for you main employment // Please expand and explain how this will work for the common working person.
Tax codes will vary around the world.
Where I live you can claim work from home expenses (utilities, depreciation on furniture, equipment, consumables, cleaning) similar to how you can claim self-education expenses like textbooks, reference books, professional exams, study courses, etc. So not only was I saving money by not physically going to work, but I was able to get tax deductions on home related expenses.
If you want to go to the next level and claim part of the building itself - that can have tax implications if you own the property, since your principal place of residence is exempt from many business related taxes. For example, your home is exempt from capital gains tax, and you will compromise this status if you declare part of it is for commercial use and claim tax breaks related to that. So generally people don't do that.
posted by xdvesper at 10:27 PM on June 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
Tax codes will vary around the world.
Where I live you can claim work from home expenses (utilities, depreciation on furniture, equipment, consumables, cleaning) similar to how you can claim self-education expenses like textbooks, reference books, professional exams, study courses, etc. So not only was I saving money by not physically going to work, but I was able to get tax deductions on home related expenses.
If you want to go to the next level and claim part of the building itself - that can have tax implications if you own the property, since your principal place of residence is exempt from many business related taxes. For example, your home is exempt from capital gains tax, and you will compromise this status if you declare part of it is for commercial use and claim tax breaks related to that. So generally people don't do that.
posted by xdvesper at 10:27 PM on June 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
For example, your home is exempt from capital gains tax, and you will compromise this status if you declare part of it is for commercial use and claim tax breaks related to that. So generally people don't do that.
It's a shame more people aren't aware of this, because lots of people do actually make these claims without realising the implications. If the ATO ever gets around to looking into home-based expenses, I expect there will be a lot of shocked people.
posted by dg at 10:31 PM on June 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
It's a shame more people aren't aware of this, because lots of people do actually make these claims without realising the implications. If the ATO ever gets around to looking into home-based expenses, I expect there will be a lot of shocked people.
posted by dg at 10:31 PM on June 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
Working from home has been really awful for some of my colleagues who don't have nice home offices and live in shared housing. When you have to share a kitchen table with your housemate who also works from home (and is also trying to have a loud video conference) or you have small children or you just don't have any common space in your house so you have work from your bedroom, it's not great (and very much not ergonomic). I share the concern that handled wrong this becomes a nice way for organisations to push their internet, electricity and rental costs on to you. Oh also corporate IT says we need to monitor your home network now.
This isn't to say WFH isn't a great thing for many people! I know it is. But the best outcome is choice, and employers picking the costs no matter where work is done.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 10:47 PM on June 27, 2023 [30 favorites]
This isn't to say WFH isn't a great thing for many people! I know it is. But the best outcome is choice, and employers picking the costs no matter where work is done.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 10:47 PM on June 27, 2023 [30 favorites]
(eg imagine working for a call centre on your personal laptop, with a headset, now infested with corporate spyware, perched on your bed, worried about whether your housemate will audibly flush the toilet or your dog will bark, with your wrists aching and your upper back slowly crystallising into a hump... we don't want that any more than we want to be compelled to return to the shitty open plan panopticon with single ply toilet paper and some wanker stealing your lunch from the shared fridge)
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 11:02 PM on June 27, 2023 [18 favorites]
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 11:02 PM on June 27, 2023 [18 favorites]
I expect there will be a lot of shocked people.
Also insurance, depending on what you do at home. Certainly I know people who have tried to set up home based businesses only to find that doing something like sewing, if for money, completely voids ALL of their home insurance, regardless of the scale of the business.
Office work seems to escape a lot of that problem, though I also don't know anyone who has actually checked.
posted by deadwax at 12:31 AM on June 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
Also insurance, depending on what you do at home. Certainly I know people who have tried to set up home based businesses only to find that doing something like sewing, if for money, completely voids ALL of their home insurance, regardless of the scale of the business.
Office work seems to escape a lot of that problem, though I also don't know anyone who has actually checked.
posted by deadwax at 12:31 AM on June 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
I thought this Bloomberg article was interesting.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 1:05 AM on June 28, 2023 [19 favorites]
“The problem isn’t that hybrid doesn’t work,” said Christine Armstrong, a UK-based workplace researcher, adding that it remains popular especially for parents or people with long commutes. “The problem is that most organizations haven’t done the work to make it work.”From my perspective in London, there's definitely a divide based on living conditions. People with big houses and quiet, comfortable home working setups sometimes assume "everyone wants to work at home now" which is definitely not true for everyone.
Without guidance on when to go in, staff can easily spend days in the office on back-to-back video calls. That makes train tickets feel like a pointless expense, according to Armstrong. Mandating attendance with no set schedule, though — for example for key client meetings — means it’s equally hard to plan childcare, travel or other everyday tasks.
In theory, days spent in the office offer cultural benefits and greater opportunities to collaborate. That doesn’t always happen, Armstrong said. “If it’s not well organized, when they do go in, they don’t get those things anyway.” She suggests that managers sit down with team members to discuss which situations require everyone in the office — for example welcoming a new hire — and agree to a schedule that fits everyone’s personal circumstances and expectations.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 1:05 AM on June 28, 2023 [19 favorites]
The reality is that almost no manager at any level is ever offered any serious training in how to manage either people or projects and spends far too little time thinking about how to be good at it or using tools designed to make it easier.
As a result, managers essentially have no object permanence and oscillate between wild-micromanagement and tool-assisted-creeping of remote employees and total zone out and lack of guidance. Honestly, it is not so hard to just make time a few times a week to keep up to date with what each person in your team has been, will be, and should be doing. You should be doing this constantly anyway even with people you are in the office with, otherwise you're just monitoring their attendance not their performance.
If you are well set up for managing any kind of team, you should be able to extend that to being remote.
We have fixed-ish office days and on those days we avoid scheduling teams calls or things like that and take the opportunity to talk in person. Obviously it is profoundly goofy to commute in only to call in to meetings with people who aren't in the office that day.
I'm a bit doubtful that half of large companies are seeking to continue any level of remote work. I think it's more likely that they've decided to reduce the footprint each worker is allowed to occupy, through evil schemes such as 'hot desking'. Here in Australia, my observation is that most private employers are very handwavy about the actual availability of 'flexible' working arrangements and it's only government agencies that seem to be actually offering such arrangements. Sometimes in concert with and enabled by things like hot desking, so still not all good.
That's the same thing? If an employer had decided that they're going from 1:1 desk to employee ratio to 1:2 or 1:3 then that's inherently deciding to use remote and hybrid working.
It's curious, and no doubt generational, that to you 'hot desking' is seen as a scheme or needs to be in quotes. I have now been in the workforce for 15 years and I have never had a fixed desk, nor have I wanted one. I've never worked in an office where anyone (except the receptionists, I guess?) had a fixed desk. I've also never had the slightest desire to have that change, I don't want a bunch of my stuff in one place at my employer's location, it feels like I'd be taking the whole job thing more seriously than it really deserves.
posted by atrazine at 2:43 AM on June 28, 2023 [9 favorites]
As a result, managers essentially have no object permanence and oscillate between wild-micromanagement and tool-assisted-creeping of remote employees and total zone out and lack of guidance. Honestly, it is not so hard to just make time a few times a week to keep up to date with what each person in your team has been, will be, and should be doing. You should be doing this constantly anyway even with people you are in the office with, otherwise you're just monitoring their attendance not their performance.
If you are well set up for managing any kind of team, you should be able to extend that to being remote.
We have fixed-ish office days and on those days we avoid scheduling teams calls or things like that and take the opportunity to talk in person. Obviously it is profoundly goofy to commute in only to call in to meetings with people who aren't in the office that day.
I'm a bit doubtful that half of large companies are seeking to continue any level of remote work. I think it's more likely that they've decided to reduce the footprint each worker is allowed to occupy, through evil schemes such as 'hot desking'. Here in Australia, my observation is that most private employers are very handwavy about the actual availability of 'flexible' working arrangements and it's only government agencies that seem to be actually offering such arrangements. Sometimes in concert with and enabled by things like hot desking, so still not all good.
That's the same thing? If an employer had decided that they're going from 1:1 desk to employee ratio to 1:2 or 1:3 then that's inherently deciding to use remote and hybrid working.
It's curious, and no doubt generational, that to you 'hot desking' is seen as a scheme or needs to be in quotes. I have now been in the workforce for 15 years and I have never had a fixed desk, nor have I wanted one. I've never worked in an office where anyone (except the receptionists, I guess?) had a fixed desk. I've also never had the slightest desire to have that change, I don't want a bunch of my stuff in one place at my employer's location, it feels like I'd be taking the whole job thing more seriously than it really deserves.
posted by atrazine at 2:43 AM on June 28, 2023 [9 favorites]
The large company I work for went from saying that it was embracing flexible work to now mandating 2 days a week in the office for reasons of "culture." (They did not explain how me commuting and paying for parking to do my Zoom meetings with my teammates in in a different city helps culture.)
Our division's leader also heavily implied that it will be harder to move ahead in the organization if you don't come in regularly.
I have had some meetings where being co-located is an advantage. They don't happen two days a week, though, and I am not sure how that's some magic number between "flexible" and "good culture."
I'm not surprised because we're a very low-trust environment. And, a lot of these rules are being set by older people (that is, men) who don't need to sweat the cost of parking or transit or worry about childcare and those kinds of things.
But my cynical belief is that it is because my employer owns a lot of downtown property and so, with other organizations in our industry in a similar way, is trying to set an example to get other employers to send their employees back into the office spaces they rented from us. I've also heard, but don't know for sure, that some municipalities where we have offices have offered tax breaks to companies to get people back to downtown to support businesses that operate there.
Anyway, my personal policy right now is to keep doing what I am doing with the odd strategic pop-in until I am explicitly told that I need to be in the office more or there's some evidence of a cost to not being there. It hasn't happened yet.
posted by synecdoche at 3:52 AM on June 28, 2023 [9 favorites]
Our division's leader also heavily implied that it will be harder to move ahead in the organization if you don't come in regularly.
I have had some meetings where being co-located is an advantage. They don't happen two days a week, though, and I am not sure how that's some magic number between "flexible" and "good culture."
I'm not surprised because we're a very low-trust environment. And, a lot of these rules are being set by older people (that is, men) who don't need to sweat the cost of parking or transit or worry about childcare and those kinds of things.
But my cynical belief is that it is because my employer owns a lot of downtown property and so, with other organizations in our industry in a similar way, is trying to set an example to get other employers to send their employees back into the office spaces they rented from us. I've also heard, but don't know for sure, that some municipalities where we have offices have offered tax breaks to companies to get people back to downtown to support businesses that operate there.
Anyway, my personal policy right now is to keep doing what I am doing with the odd strategic pop-in until I am explicitly told that I need to be in the office more or there's some evidence of a cost to not being there. It hasn't happened yet.
posted by synecdoche at 3:52 AM on June 28, 2023 [9 favorites]
your home is exempt from capital gains tax
Up to a point, talk to an accountant.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 4:35 AM on June 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
Up to a point, talk to an accountant.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 4:35 AM on June 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
The Archive.org link seemed to work fine for me, just sayin’.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 5:19 AM on June 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 5:19 AM on June 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
"From my perspective in London, there's definitely a divide based on living conditions. People with big houses and quiet, comfortable home working setups sometimes assume "everyone wants to work at home now" which is definitely not true for everyone."
I've noticed this as well. The young people and new graduates I work with go in to the office far more often because they tend to live in shared houses and might have to work from a kitchen table with housemates or even from a bed or sofa.
Then there's a belt of better off, more financially comfortable/established people, who might have a dedicated home office or at least working space, who are very comfortable. However, beyond that there are also a lot of senior managers who get uncomfortable when they can't roam the desks and look over people's shoulders, even if they do have a big house with office space.
Our physical office only has about 50% of the desks it would need to fit our headcount, so remote working is here to stay.
posted by knapah at 5:39 AM on June 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
I've noticed this as well. The young people and new graduates I work with go in to the office far more often because they tend to live in shared houses and might have to work from a kitchen table with housemates or even from a bed or sofa.
Then there's a belt of better off, more financially comfortable/established people, who might have a dedicated home office or at least working space, who are very comfortable. However, beyond that there are also a lot of senior managers who get uncomfortable when they can't roam the desks and look over people's shoulders, even if they do have a big house with office space.
Our physical office only has about 50% of the desks it would need to fit our headcount, so remote working is here to stay.
posted by knapah at 5:39 AM on June 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
For all the articles about "back to the office" and all the CEOs pushing that, I just don't think this genie goes back in the bottle.
I’m just waiting for the other boot to drop, where corporations figure-out how to claim ownership of however much space home workers dedicate to their work and, thus, claim the right to control/monitor/secure the physical space. Keycards required to enter your little “office” corner of the living room?
posted by Thorzdad at 5:47 AM on June 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
I’m just waiting for the other boot to drop, where corporations figure-out how to claim ownership of however much space home workers dedicate to their work and, thus, claim the right to control/monitor/secure the physical space. Keycards required to enter your little “office” corner of the living room?
posted by Thorzdad at 5:47 AM on June 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
I'm pretty sure that I've mentioned this before, but we've been WFH since mid 2020. In theory, the plan is for us to go pack to the office 2 days a week in (checks latest update) August. It'll be in a new building, with hot desks for everyone except faculty, but we won't be in that much, so it shouldn't be too bad? The plan is also let people work from anywhere in the country, so there's some tension right there.
A big part of the push is to repurpose the building we're in now, since it's cheaper than adding more floors to the hospital, and it's right next door. (The building we're moving to is a couple of blocks away, within walking distance, but not something you'd have a patient walk.)
Personally, I'd be happy to get out and see people in person. It'd be nice to be able to vent to someone I don't live with every now and then.
posted by Spike Glee at 6:04 AM on June 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
A big part of the push is to repurpose the building we're in now, since it's cheaper than adding more floors to the hospital, and it's right next door. (The building we're moving to is a couple of blocks away, within walking distance, but not something you'd have a patient walk.)
Personally, I'd be happy to get out and see people in person. It'd be nice to be able to vent to someone I don't live with every now and then.
posted by Spike Glee at 6:04 AM on June 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
The market will decide this.
Companies will pay higher salaries for a smaller selection of work from office employees, and pay again for their office space and amenities, than companies which maximize work from home. That’s either going to be pay off, or not.
However, if there’s one thing I am sure of, is that work from home is a deadly career trap for young employees and rank and file in high pay locales. No hope of promotion and a virtual certainty their jobs will be offshored sooner or later. There is no reason to pay $100k a year to an average American you don’t know and who doesn’t know anyone, when the smartest people in the Philippines or Romania will compete to the job for $50,000.
posted by MattD at 6:14 AM on June 28, 2023 [12 favorites]
Companies will pay higher salaries for a smaller selection of work from office employees, and pay again for their office space and amenities, than companies which maximize work from home. That’s either going to be pay off, or not.
However, if there’s one thing I am sure of, is that work from home is a deadly career trap for young employees and rank and file in high pay locales. No hope of promotion and a virtual certainty their jobs will be offshored sooner or later. There is no reason to pay $100k a year to an average American you don’t know and who doesn’t know anyone, when the smartest people in the Philippines or Romania will compete to the job for $50,000.
posted by MattD at 6:14 AM on June 28, 2023 [12 favorites]
Saying WFH is a career trap for young employees seems to vastly overestimate how often young employees see anyone of any power. Do you imagine them all just like hustling and flexing in front of Johnny CEO? Meanwhile, excellent work and a flexible, collaborative effort does get noticed and commented up the chain often in my personal work world.
I reject the (in my opinion craptastic) paradigms of in-person, "collaboration in the hallway" and pointless schmoozing is needed to have an effective career. They're just papering over a toxic work culture if so. Everyone can do some part to change this by not accepting and being part of that pointless, stupid, white bro club.
Maybe that's why I've always chosen to work in women dominated industries though. I'm a conventionally attractive white dude, but I have a hell of a lot more in common with the culture of a non-profit or marketing department. Though I am often gently trying to convince my kind, wonderful but over-worked and stressed female bosses (I've had like one male boss in 15+ years.) that it's okay, we can't do everything at once.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 6:39 AM on June 28, 2023 [9 favorites]
I reject the (in my opinion craptastic) paradigms of in-person, "collaboration in the hallway" and pointless schmoozing is needed to have an effective career. They're just papering over a toxic work culture if so. Everyone can do some part to change this by not accepting and being part of that pointless, stupid, white bro club.
Maybe that's why I've always chosen to work in women dominated industries though. I'm a conventionally attractive white dude, but I have a hell of a lot more in common with the culture of a non-profit or marketing department. Though I am often gently trying to convince my kind, wonderful but over-worked and stressed female bosses (I've had like one male boss in 15+ years.) that it's okay, we can't do everything at once.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 6:39 AM on June 28, 2023 [9 favorites]
As a woman, I've noticed that if you're a man in a female dominated industry, you can work from a garbage can and still get a promotion. You need to get that boss position!
posted by kingdead at 6:49 AM on June 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by kingdead at 6:49 AM on June 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
My large-company employer is, somewhat hilariously, asking us to return back to the office 3 days a week and selling off a lot of real estate. There is some concern about whether this is physically possible.
posted by madcaptenor at 7:07 AM on June 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by madcaptenor at 7:07 AM on June 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
It's curious, and no doubt generational, that to you 'hot desking' is seen as a scheme or needs to be in quotes. I have now been in the workforce for 15 years and I have never had a fixed desk, nor have I wanted one. I've never worked in an office where anyone (except the receptionists, I guess?) had a fixed desk. I've also never had the slightest desire to have that change, I don't want a bunch of my stuff in one place at my employer's location, it feels like I'd be taking the whole job thing more seriously than it really deserves.
This is something where expectations about office space varies by sector (and probably geography as well). I've never, ever, experienced a hot-desk situation. I had one job where the ED had a private office and all the rest of us had cubicles, one job where the company owner and I shared an office, and every other job I've had came with a private office. Currently I work from home, but if I wanted to drive about 45 minutes to where the company has offices, I could have space there, either a dedicated cube or an office, depending on what was available.
Companies will pay higher salaries for a smaller selection of work from office employees, and pay again for their office space and amenities, than companies which maximize work from home. That’s either going to be pay off, or not.
However, if there’s one thing I am sure of, is that work from home is a deadly career trap for young employees and rank and file in high pay locales. No hope of promotion and a virtual certainty their jobs will be offshored sooner or later. There is no reason to pay $100k a year to an average American you don’t know and who doesn’t know anyone, when the smartest people in the Philippines or Romania will compete to the job for $50,000.
Again, this is really sector-specific. In my field, work flexibility (remote/hybrid/office) is now an expected perk, particularly for more senior/higher-paid people and it really doesn't look like it will reverse. And, again specific to my field, I don't see any serious risk of outsourcing since this work is based mostly on local knowledge and presence. But in other fields, I can easily believe the dynamic you describe exists. The onboarding/mentoring of entry-level staff is a big thing; it is easy for them to feel very disconnected and unable to access resources, and I don't think many companies have solved this convincingly.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:10 AM on June 28, 2023 [7 favorites]
This is something where expectations about office space varies by sector (and probably geography as well). I've never, ever, experienced a hot-desk situation. I had one job where the ED had a private office and all the rest of us had cubicles, one job where the company owner and I shared an office, and every other job I've had came with a private office. Currently I work from home, but if I wanted to drive about 45 minutes to where the company has offices, I could have space there, either a dedicated cube or an office, depending on what was available.
Companies will pay higher salaries for a smaller selection of work from office employees, and pay again for their office space and amenities, than companies which maximize work from home. That’s either going to be pay off, or not.
However, if there’s one thing I am sure of, is that work from home is a deadly career trap for young employees and rank and file in high pay locales. No hope of promotion and a virtual certainty their jobs will be offshored sooner or later. There is no reason to pay $100k a year to an average American you don’t know and who doesn’t know anyone, when the smartest people in the Philippines or Romania will compete to the job for $50,000.
Again, this is really sector-specific. In my field, work flexibility (remote/hybrid/office) is now an expected perk, particularly for more senior/higher-paid people and it really doesn't look like it will reverse. And, again specific to my field, I don't see any serious risk of outsourcing since this work is based mostly on local knowledge and presence. But in other fields, I can easily believe the dynamic you describe exists. The onboarding/mentoring of entry-level staff is a big thing; it is easy for them to feel very disconnected and unable to access resources, and I don't think many companies have solved this convincingly.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:10 AM on June 28, 2023 [7 favorites]
Keycards required to enter your little “office” corner of the living room?
In the US, unless things have recently changed, you basically have to cede a portion of your home to only work if you want to write any of it off. When the rules are so inherently lopsided, it encourages lying (like the insurance thing mentioned above).
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:13 AM on June 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
In the US, unless things have recently changed, you basically have to cede a portion of your home to only work if you want to write any of it off. When the rules are so inherently lopsided, it encourages lying (like the insurance thing mentioned above).
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:13 AM on June 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
I broke down and got the smallest possible WeWork space near my house (8x7) office. I just couldn’t do the work from home thing anymore. I felt like I was always at work and couldn’t relax. YMMV but having a separate physical environment for work and home is very soothing for me. .
I have considered this, simply for having more separation between "home" and "office," but locally the various co-working spaces are all way more expensive than I am willing to spend. I've even flirted with the idea of buying or renting some kind of small commercial space that would work for an office, but again, costs are above what feels reasonable to me. If there was a cheap option here (like it sounds WeWork is for you), I'd be very tempted.
Also, it would be great to free up the room that I'm using as an office -- it could be a sewing room/guest room/etc. and would make for a nicer home.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:15 AM on June 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
I have considered this, simply for having more separation between "home" and "office," but locally the various co-working spaces are all way more expensive than I am willing to spend. I've even flirted with the idea of buying or renting some kind of small commercial space that would work for an office, but again, costs are above what feels reasonable to me. If there was a cheap option here (like it sounds WeWork is for you), I'd be very tempted.
Also, it would be great to free up the room that I'm using as an office -- it could be a sewing room/guest room/etc. and would make for a nicer home.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:15 AM on June 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
Since I started going back to the office about two days per week (highly encouraged, level of enforcement depends on the department though the company does seem to plan to periodically check who's badging in to buildings, who's connected to the office wifi instead of on VPN from somewhere) I have only seen two other members of my team, which is spread out across multiple states. The manager types who might be the most anxious about seeing bodies in seats aren't even there.
posted by emelenjr at 7:28 AM on June 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by emelenjr at 7:28 AM on June 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
“Better but less space is probably the strap line for the larger organisations,” said Lee Elliott, a commercial real estate expert at Knight Frank. “It is not the death knell of property markets because what you are seeing is a shortfall of supply, and therefore an increase in rents, for the prime buildings.”I am puzzled by this. What shortfall of supply is that? Lots of commercial real estate is standing empty, it is mostly not easy to convert to residential use, and o don’t see many office buildings being torn down.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 7:30 AM on June 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
One of the nicer things about the office is that it's comparatively egalitarian. During COVID, I was working at a place that encouraged work from home (great!) AND cameras on during meetings. It was super easy to tell who had money and who didn't. It got worse when the people who bought further out during the pandemic so they could get that home office were called back... to LA.
posted by kingdead at 7:33 AM on June 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by kingdead at 7:33 AM on June 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
What shortfall of supply is that? Lots of commercial real estate is standing empty, it is mostly not easy to convert to residential use, and o don’t see many office buildings being torn down.
He's speaking about a tiny number of buildings in a small number of cities, and even then coloring it with the most positive spin short of the ending of a Disney movie. What you said is 100% true of the majority of the US market.
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:44 AM on June 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
He's speaking about a tiny number of buildings in a small number of cities, and even then coloring it with the most positive spin short of the ending of a Disney movie. What you said is 100% true of the majority of the US market.
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:44 AM on June 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
He's speaking about a tiny number of buildings in a small number of cities, and even then coloring it with the most positive spin short of the ending of a Disney movie. What you said is 100% true of the majority of the US market.
I agree. He seems to be making a point that there is a shortage of "prime" buildings, despite the overall glut. It's not clear exactly what he means by "prime," but at some level it makes sense -- there's a vast supply of office space, but most of it is pretty generic and less is premium, for any definition of "premium." While probably true, it is definitely putting a spin on things that avoids the main issues around supply and demand.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:48 AM on June 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
I agree. He seems to be making a point that there is a shortage of "prime" buildings, despite the overall glut. It's not clear exactly what he means by "prime," but at some level it makes sense -- there's a vast supply of office space, but most of it is pretty generic and less is premium, for any definition of "premium." While probably true, it is definitely putting a spin on things that avoids the main issues around supply and demand.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:48 AM on June 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
The office building where my small company is located is part of a larger plaza. There have always been several vacant storefronts, clubs/restaurants only open at night, and convention facilities that were usually empty, but the parking lot still used to be 2/3 full on any given workday just from the office space, and the lunchtime crowds were significant. Since the pandemic, things have emptied out a lot.
And these days there are only about 2-6 people in our office on any given business day. So we cut the office space in half earlier this year to save on rent, and part of the space we vacated is now a law office that also moved in from a larger space.
posted by Foosnark at 7:57 AM on June 28, 2023
And these days there are only about 2-6 people in our office on any given business day. So we cut the office space in half earlier this year to save on rent, and part of the space we vacated is now a law office that also moved in from a larger space.
posted by Foosnark at 7:57 AM on June 28, 2023
I keep a number of toys around my desk. At my previous job, a VP and her team were in over the weekend testing, and she picked up my Hoberman sphere and was fiddling with it, as people do. (That's one of the reasons I keep them.) The next Monday, her minions made her return it and apologize, which she did.
So, that's how I met a VP more or less just by being in the office, with my stuff.
posted by Spike Glee at 8:21 AM on June 28, 2023
So, that's how I met a VP more or less just by being in the office, with my stuff.
posted by Spike Glee at 8:21 AM on June 28, 2023
There is no reason to pay $100k a year to an average American you don’t know and who doesn’t know anyone, when the smartest people in the Philippines or Romania will compete to the job for $50,000.
There are a lot of companies not willing to do like when the culture of the product is so different. Also, some companies have data that can’t leave the US, like healthcare. Still have to have those $100k workers in that case.
posted by Monday at 8:21 AM on June 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
There are a lot of companies not willing to do like when the culture of the product is so different. Also, some companies have data that can’t leave the US, like healthcare. Still have to have those $100k workers in that case.
posted by Monday at 8:21 AM on June 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
there is no reason to pay multiple hundreds of thousands of dollars and more to the americans you don't know in the c-suite when they provide no value and can be removed without loss
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 8:33 AM on June 28, 2023 [17 favorites]
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 8:33 AM on June 28, 2023 [17 favorites]
here's the two main workplace-culture reasons where wfh requires some extra effort:
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 8:40 AM on June 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
- onboarding can be very difficult for organizations that don't take onboarding seriously. this is always true, but in a wfh environment it's harder for new people to find who to pester about how to do stuff
- wfh can complicate organizing drives, because people have to take extra effort to get to know other people well enough to figure out who to trust, and because stuff done in text might get passed along to snitches.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 8:40 AM on June 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
I am puzzled by this. What shortfall of supply is that?
I've only heard about all these supposedly empty office buildings on MetaFilter. In my part of the world, Class A office space is still the knife fight it always has been.
The only real difference between now and 3-4 years ago is that certain companies have given up plans on expansion because they made bad economic bets during the shutdown, which is how my place of place of business came to occupy two brand new office buildings that were originally built for Amazon Studios and Discovery/Warner Bros.
In fact, next month I'm getting moved into temp office space so my current building can get razed and replaced with a new complex for 2.5k people. And we only remodeled and moved into this place 13 months ago. By 2026, we are going to have expanded our footprint here from ~800 to around 5k people, and that's just since COVID started. We'd probably expand even quicker, but every new building means lots of meetings with the Culver City and Los Angeles City planning departments, so that takes time.
posted by Back At It Again At Krispy Kreme at 9:13 AM on June 28, 2023
I've only heard about all these supposedly empty office buildings on MetaFilter. In my part of the world, Class A office space is still the knife fight it always has been.
The only real difference between now and 3-4 years ago is that certain companies have given up plans on expansion because they made bad economic bets during the shutdown, which is how my place of place of business came to occupy two brand new office buildings that were originally built for Amazon Studios and Discovery/Warner Bros.
In fact, next month I'm getting moved into temp office space so my current building can get razed and replaced with a new complex for 2.5k people. And we only remodeled and moved into this place 13 months ago. By 2026, we are going to have expanded our footprint here from ~800 to around 5k people, and that's just since COVID started. We'd probably expand even quicker, but every new building means lots of meetings with the Culver City and Los Angeles City planning departments, so that takes time.
posted by Back At It Again At Krispy Kreme at 9:13 AM on June 28, 2023
I used to have a sub-mile commute (15 minute walk) to the office. It was great, I'd get my fill of vitamin D, people watching, and higher-than-the-average-American step count without even trying. Sometimes I'd go home during lunch just to do a load of laundry, or take a nap. I even went to the office when no one was there in 2022. But that's gone, and now I'm renting out a quarter of my (expensive) home space to my employer.
I suppose I can move to the suburbs and get a McMansion.
posted by meowzilla at 9:41 AM on June 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
I suppose I can move to the suburbs and get a McMansion.
posted by meowzilla at 9:41 AM on June 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
Maybe I’m in the minority in that my home office is also used when I’m not working for fun stuff sometimes. I play PC games and I built my wife (and myself) a reading/tv/game nook in there for nights when the other is using the main tv or we want to be extra cozy.
It’s just a desk with a monitor on it. It doesn’t scream WORK MORE at me when it’s late. Finally my ADHD pays off because if I close my work email, I absolutely forget I even have tasks to do until I find my to do list.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 9:46 AM on June 28, 2023 [7 favorites]
It’s just a desk with a monitor on it. It doesn’t scream WORK MORE at me when it’s late. Finally my ADHD pays off because if I close my work email, I absolutely forget I even have tasks to do until I find my to do list.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 9:46 AM on June 28, 2023 [7 favorites]
If you're talking about a "home office" that has, like, a door, and isn't just a desk in a corner or an alcove that the chair sticks out of, you're not coming from the same experience as I am, and that of many of the people who often push back against the idea that WFH is an unalloyed good for most people.
A reading nook? Good luck with that when your "office" is already wedged wherever it fits in a 1 bedroom apartment. Then add a second person working from home, who takes private calls.
posted by sagc at 9:51 AM on June 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
A reading nook? Good luck with that when your "office" is already wedged wherever it fits in a 1 bedroom apartment. Then add a second person working from home, who takes private calls.
posted by sagc at 9:51 AM on June 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
We've got a big push on to make the production worker the "center of the universe". The theory is, the customer pays to get the thing built, or the motor shaft aligned, or the paint applied. They do not care about (our) managers, payroll people, business office, schedulers, safety specialists, etc. Even to some extent, Engineering department. They just want the work done. So we start from that and say what does the mechanic need from me? If they say they need something to get their job done without interruption or hassle, there's a strong presumption that they're going to get it.
And every time they're asked, in formal third-party surveys, anonymous and in person, and even in casual conversation, they say people working from home is a problem for them.
At least around here, the WFH hate is not coming from management or even senior leadership. It's coming from inside the house.
posted by ctmf at 10:02 AM on June 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
And every time they're asked, in formal third-party surveys, anonymous and in person, and even in casual conversation, they say people working from home is a problem for them.
At least around here, the WFH hate is not coming from management or even senior leadership. It's coming from inside the house.
posted by ctmf at 10:02 AM on June 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
In my part of the world, Class A office space is still the knife fight it always has been.
Is your part of the world Los Angeles, CA? LA has around 7 million square feet of empty office space downtown alone (available for lease). Due to work from home, only 48% of leased buildings are currently occupied, and only 5 new properties in the entire LA market are under construction, amounting to 500k sq ft. New leases in the quarter were -271k sq ft, and the best offices (class A) are offering 'generous' (according to the companies who follow this stuff) packages for relocation.
They don't break it out by class in the free reports.
And downtown sounds bad, but the submarkets of 'fashion district', 'arts district' are 35-45% vacant and available for lease, and they are highlighting as 'leasing wins' leases of 11,000 sq ft. Which there are plenty of single family homes in LA bigger than that.
posted by The_Vegetables at 10:08 AM on June 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
Is your part of the world Los Angeles, CA? LA has around 7 million square feet of empty office space downtown alone (available for lease). Due to work from home, only 48% of leased buildings are currently occupied, and only 5 new properties in the entire LA market are under construction, amounting to 500k sq ft. New leases in the quarter were -271k sq ft, and the best offices (class A) are offering 'generous' (according to the companies who follow this stuff) packages for relocation.
They don't break it out by class in the free reports.
And downtown sounds bad, but the submarkets of 'fashion district', 'arts district' are 35-45% vacant and available for lease, and they are highlighting as 'leasing wins' leases of 11,000 sq ft. Which there are plenty of single family homes in LA bigger than that.
posted by The_Vegetables at 10:08 AM on June 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
Every time a mechanic needs to discuss a drawing or procedure with the engineer who wrote it, or get some information from HR, or have a pay question, or want to complain about a policy, or report a problem - if the person they're looking for isn't physically present, they're not just annoyed. They're fucking outraged. And that has not slowed down since 2020.
posted by ctmf at 10:09 AM on June 28, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by ctmf at 10:09 AM on June 28, 2023 [7 favorites]
Every time a mechanic needs to discuss a drawing or procedure with the engineer who wrote it, or get some information from HR, or have a pay question, or want to complain about a policy, or report a problem - if the person they're looking for isn't physically present, they're not just annoyed. They're fucking outraged. And that has not slowed down since 2020.
That dynamic, where there is a "shop floor" doing work that can only be done in person, and where their level of support declines when other people are off-site, makes a lot of sense to me as a case where remote work is much less viable. I'm sure there are plenty of other situations as well where in-person is simply the smart/efficient option. There just isn't a one size fits all that is going to work in every situation, despite how this tends to get presented.
posted by Dip Flash at 10:26 AM on June 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
That dynamic, where there is a "shop floor" doing work that can only be done in person, and where their level of support declines when other people are off-site, makes a lot of sense to me as a case where remote work is much less viable. I'm sure there are plenty of other situations as well where in-person is simply the smart/efficient option. There just isn't a one size fits all that is going to work in every situation, despite how this tends to get presented.
posted by Dip Flash at 10:26 AM on June 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
If I was a monster I would find someplace with a surplus of vacant office towers and a big low income housing shortage. Then I would use the ideas outlined in Charles Munger’s so called UC Santa Barbara “superstorm” to convert those office towers into cheap residential apartments.
One of biggest barriers in converting an office building to residential is floor plate configuration to allow cost effective use of the interior space. Office towers have large flat floor plates to maximize space for cubicles, desks and conference rooms. Meanwhile residential zoning rules require that living spaces (bedrooms, living rooms) have windows to the outside. So residential towers are either narrower or have an interior courtyard.
Cruise ships have this problem because of the hull requirements and pack passengers into those cheaper windowless interior cabins making them livable with these artificial windows and other tricks — this is said to have been Munger’s inspiration for his design.
It wouldn’t shock me if the “super dorm” isn’t axtually the off scheme by Munger / Berkshire Hathaway. Convert some class b/c office space into cheap housing and get the government to pay the rent with public housing vouchers. Present it as “green” because you are recycling all that vacant space and saving on pouring all that concrete.
posted by interogative mood at 10:35 AM on June 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
One of biggest barriers in converting an office building to residential is floor plate configuration to allow cost effective use of the interior space. Office towers have large flat floor plates to maximize space for cubicles, desks and conference rooms. Meanwhile residential zoning rules require that living spaces (bedrooms, living rooms) have windows to the outside. So residential towers are either narrower or have an interior courtyard.
Cruise ships have this problem because of the hull requirements and pack passengers into those cheaper windowless interior cabins making them livable with these artificial windows and other tricks — this is said to have been Munger’s inspiration for his design.
It wouldn’t shock me if the “super dorm” isn’t axtually the off scheme by Munger / Berkshire Hathaway. Convert some class b/c office space into cheap housing and get the government to pay the rent with public housing vouchers. Present it as “green” because you are recycling all that vacant space and saving on pouring all that concrete.
posted by interogative mood at 10:35 AM on June 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
For the millionth time on the millionth thread:
The "return to the office" folks are trying to mandate an in-office mono-culture. WFH fans are not. If you don't like working from home, that is fine, and you can say so. But stop acting like other people wanting to work from home is impacting you in any way.
If WFH doesn't work for your industry, that's fine. But, for example, if you're talking about the needs of production workers, and shop floors, then maybe the thread about downtown office space is not the relevant place to argue against WFH?
posted by explosion at 10:39 AM on June 28, 2023 [13 favorites]
The "return to the office" folks are trying to mandate an in-office mono-culture. WFH fans are not. If you don't like working from home, that is fine, and you can say so. But stop acting like other people wanting to work from home is impacting you in any way.
If WFH doesn't work for your industry, that's fine. But, for example, if you're talking about the needs of production workers, and shop floors, then maybe the thread about downtown office space is not the relevant place to argue against WFH?
posted by explosion at 10:39 AM on June 28, 2023 [13 favorites]
a virtual certainty their jobs will be offshored sooner or later. There is no reason to pay $100k a year to an average American you don’t know and who doesn’t know anyone, when the smartest people in the Philippines or Romania will compete to the job for $50,000.
This is always a strange assertion to me, like it seems to rest on an idea that global technical labor markets are vast, untapped, and that the only barriers to tapping them were… the lack of sufficiently high quality videoconferencing software? Companies not getting the notion to do it? Not one of those assumptions is consistent with my observations of reality. In a heavily remote world I’d expect some shift in the equilibrium towards offshoring, but also a shift towards a more distributed domestic workforce, who still share language and culture and institutional background and are no more than a few hours apart in time zone and so on. Obviously neither is good for people in HCOL areas, who want to remain in HCOL areas, but the latter is certainly the one my employer has chosen to pursue fairly explicitly. I don’t understand why people still talk like all the jobs are going straight to the Philippines contingent on one specific cultural or technological change when the processes that made that possible started decades ago.
posted by atoxyl at 12:02 PM on June 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
This is always a strange assertion to me, like it seems to rest on an idea that global technical labor markets are vast, untapped, and that the only barriers to tapping them were… the lack of sufficiently high quality videoconferencing software? Companies not getting the notion to do it? Not one of those assumptions is consistent with my observations of reality. In a heavily remote world I’d expect some shift in the equilibrium towards offshoring, but also a shift towards a more distributed domestic workforce, who still share language and culture and institutional background and are no more than a few hours apart in time zone and so on. Obviously neither is good for people in HCOL areas, who want to remain in HCOL areas, but the latter is certainly the one my employer has chosen to pursue fairly explicitly. I don’t understand why people still talk like all the jobs are going straight to the Philippines contingent on one specific cultural or technological change when the processes that made that possible started decades ago.
posted by atoxyl at 12:02 PM on June 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
It's not clear exactly what he means by "prime,"
Maybe leased by true Scotsmen?
posted by ricochet biscuit at 12:13 PM on June 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
Maybe leased by true Scotsmen?
posted by ricochet biscuit at 12:13 PM on June 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
I expect there will be a lot of shocked people.
Also insurance, depending on what you do at home. Certainly I know people who have tried to set up home based businesses only to find that doing something like sewing, if for money, completely voids ALL of their home insurance, regardless of the scale of the business.
Office work seems to escape a lot of that problem, though I also don't know anyone who has actually checked.
Yes, insurance is another trap for the unwary - a premises that is used for both residential and commercial purposes but only insured as a residential property is at risk of having any insurance claim denied if the insurance company finds out. It doesn't really matter what kind of commercial use, because insurance companies will find any excuse to deny a claim regardless of whether there is any relationship between a specific claim and the use of the building at the time. The same applies to car insurance - you are asked to declare if the vehicle is used for private or commercial purposes and, if the insurance company finds out you were on a work errand when you got rear-ended, they'll do everything they can to deny your claim.
It's curious, and no doubt generational, that to you 'hot desking' is seen as a scheme or needs to be in quotes.
It may be a generational thing and it may be because I've always had a dedicated space when I worked in the office, but my only experience of hot desking is a situation where workstations were allocated at the start of each day and workers had no choice, including a method of ensuring that people don't sit at adjacent workstations too often to avoid any level of 'ownership' developing over a specific space along with a ban of any personal items at workstations. I do see the efficiencies in hot desking and the waste involved in having, particularly, field staff occupying a workspace when they're only there half the time, expecially in an organisation that uses little or no paper-based processes.
My previous job had me managing staff that were not only spread around eight different offices throughout the country, but many of those staff were field workers. At the time, the organisation (pubic service agency) was vigorously opposed to work-from-home and required people to jump through all sorts of hoops just to spend a day at home when fieldwork logistics made it vastly easier to do so. This for an organisation where everyone was remote from at least part of their team and that included one office with two people and one with a single person. I understand their position has now softened post-COVID (after full remote work for everyone for close to two years) to allow a small proportion of WFH for some staff, but with the CEO being mostly absent from the office and working from home themselves. No surprise there. Part of the reason is a poor organisational culture that results in many staff not performing well unless they are physically supervised and productivity took a massive nose-dive when everyone was WFH. As usual, the staff get blamed and penalised for that when it's the management that is at least 90% to blame.
posted by dg at 3:30 PM on June 28, 2023
Also insurance, depending on what you do at home. Certainly I know people who have tried to set up home based businesses only to find that doing something like sewing, if for money, completely voids ALL of their home insurance, regardless of the scale of the business.
Office work seems to escape a lot of that problem, though I also don't know anyone who has actually checked.
Yes, insurance is another trap for the unwary - a premises that is used for both residential and commercial purposes but only insured as a residential property is at risk of having any insurance claim denied if the insurance company finds out. It doesn't really matter what kind of commercial use, because insurance companies will find any excuse to deny a claim regardless of whether there is any relationship between a specific claim and the use of the building at the time. The same applies to car insurance - you are asked to declare if the vehicle is used for private or commercial purposes and, if the insurance company finds out you were on a work errand when you got rear-ended, they'll do everything they can to deny your claim.
It's curious, and no doubt generational, that to you 'hot desking' is seen as a scheme or needs to be in quotes.
It may be a generational thing and it may be because I've always had a dedicated space when I worked in the office, but my only experience of hot desking is a situation where workstations were allocated at the start of each day and workers had no choice, including a method of ensuring that people don't sit at adjacent workstations too often to avoid any level of 'ownership' developing over a specific space along with a ban of any personal items at workstations. I do see the efficiencies in hot desking and the waste involved in having, particularly, field staff occupying a workspace when they're only there half the time, expecially in an organisation that uses little or no paper-based processes.
My previous job had me managing staff that were not only spread around eight different offices throughout the country, but many of those staff were field workers. At the time, the organisation (pubic service agency) was vigorously opposed to work-from-home and required people to jump through all sorts of hoops just to spend a day at home when fieldwork logistics made it vastly easier to do so. This for an organisation where everyone was remote from at least part of their team and that included one office with two people and one with a single person. I understand their position has now softened post-COVID (after full remote work for everyone for close to two years) to allow a small proportion of WFH for some staff, but with the CEO being mostly absent from the office and working from home themselves. No surprise there. Part of the reason is a poor organisational culture that results in many staff not performing well unless they are physically supervised and productivity took a massive nose-dive when everyone was WFH. As usual, the staff get blamed and penalised for that when it's the management that is at least 90% to blame.
posted by dg at 3:30 PM on June 28, 2023
I'm so used to threads on WFH being overwhelmingly pro-WFH (not just here but anywhere on social media) that it's nice to see some people here pointing out that it's not universally convenient.
We have been told to go back to the office 3 days a week (after working from home since March 2020), but my manager has said he won't complain if we show up two days. I don't mind at all, it's actually a nice commute for me, the office is in a desirable location, and it's very spacious and has everything I could ask for. I've seen a few people but no one on my immediate team, so it's not the same as when I could overhear a colleague talking to a client on the phone and figure out the answer to another problem, or the heydays of the 90s when we would rotate being DJ and everyone would sing along to "I'm a Loser Baby". I know those days are never coming back. No one wants to listen to anyone else's music.
I might have said this before on another thread, but I literally have friends all over the world, and have gone to visit them in their home countries, because we worked together in the same space once.
Productivity has been fine at home, but I liked the collegiality of the office.
posted by maggiemaggie at 4:13 PM on June 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
We have been told to go back to the office 3 days a week (after working from home since March 2020), but my manager has said he won't complain if we show up two days. I don't mind at all, it's actually a nice commute for me, the office is in a desirable location, and it's very spacious and has everything I could ask for. I've seen a few people but no one on my immediate team, so it's not the same as when I could overhear a colleague talking to a client on the phone and figure out the answer to another problem, or the heydays of the 90s when we would rotate being DJ and everyone would sing along to "I'm a Loser Baby". I know those days are never coming back. No one wants to listen to anyone else's music.
I might have said this before on another thread, but I literally have friends all over the world, and have gone to visit them in their home countries, because we worked together in the same space once.
Productivity has been fine at home, but I liked the collegiality of the office.
posted by maggiemaggie at 4:13 PM on June 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
My employer is allowing very limited work from home days, but the downtown headquarters, formerly two buildings, has been split up into downtown + three suburban satellite offices, and one of the downtown buildings is for sale. Most everyone's commute has been reduced, though teams have been physically split up, but that's eased by two and a half years of Zoom meetings anyway. I'd still like to regularly work from home one or two days a week, but my ten minute commute is nothing to complain about.
posted by lhauser at 7:39 PM on June 28, 2023
posted by lhauser at 7:39 PM on June 28, 2023
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*jazz hands* The taxpayer!
posted by Literaryhero at 8:07 PM on June 27, 2023 [12 favorites]