"when the first chapter exploded like an orgasming sunset on Twitter"
June 29, 2023 11:46 AM Subscribe
New Testament scholar Laura Robinson on why Beautiful Union is unworkable as a theological book about sex.
1. The thesis of sex as an icon via which humans can look to for larger truths about God isn't reliably defined, defended or applied.
2. The argument depends on free association, terrible biblical interpretation and mistreatment of Greek and Hebrew.
3. The book redefines “generosity” and “giving” in sex to include only male self-gratification.
4. The book displays no awareness of the clitoris or the ways in which women actually do have orgasms during sex.
5. The book diminishes the role of women in reproduction while elevating men’s.
Conclusion.
And an addendum What If It’s Just Bad?
Bonus: Do Women Make Men Do Things? Part 1: The Paradox of Women's Agency in Christian Discourse
1. The thesis of sex as an icon via which humans can look to for larger truths about God isn't reliably defined, defended or applied.
2. The argument depends on free association, terrible biblical interpretation and mistreatment of Greek and Hebrew.
3. The book redefines “generosity” and “giving” in sex to include only male self-gratification.
4. The book displays no awareness of the clitoris or the ways in which women actually do have orgasms during sex.
5. The book diminishes the role of women in reproduction while elevating men’s.
Conclusion.
And an addendum What If It’s Just Bad?
Bonus: Do Women Make Men Do Things? Part 1: The Paradox of Women's Agency in Christian Discourse
Does that imply that God is a Woman?
posted by grokus at 11:52 AM on June 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by grokus at 11:52 AM on June 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
Is this like that scene in Barry
where he's listing to different christian podcasts to find justification for murderposted by Catblack at 12:24 PM on June 29, 2023 [5 favorites]
This sounds like some late night weed-driven theology that somehow got published
Me: "The whole Bible is about sex, man."
Paul: "well I meant that men should provide for their wives and not spend all their money on liquor and whores, but go off."
posted by muddgirl at 12:46 PM on June 29, 2023 [5 favorites]
Me: "The whole Bible is about sex, man."
Paul: "well I meant that men should provide for their wives and not spend all their money on liquor and whores, but go off."
posted by muddgirl at 12:46 PM on June 29, 2023 [5 favorites]
As long as they leave Ezekiel 23:20 alone.
posted by Quindar Beep at 1:01 PM on June 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Quindar Beep at 1:01 PM on June 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
Some of the arguments highlighted in part 3 remind me of chronic oversharer and supposed feminist Hugo Schwyzer. He once wrote an article about facials and how semen is a gift that men give to women and by refusing to let a man come on your face, you are rejecting his very personal and intimate self. Funny to see this same idea turn up as in biblical theology. Haven't thought of that asshole in awhile and I'm unsurprised to learn he started a substack during the pandemic.
posted by muddgirl at 1:14 PM on June 29, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by muddgirl at 1:14 PM on June 29, 2023 [7 favorites]
You cannot (or should not) give someone your penis the way you can give someone a cup of coffee.
If nothing else, this useful piece of advice makes the series worth reading.
posted by GenjiandProust at 1:16 PM on June 29, 2023 [15 favorites]
If nothing else, this useful piece of advice makes the series worth reading.
posted by GenjiandProust at 1:16 PM on June 29, 2023 [15 favorites]
I’d never heard of this book, so I googled it and I’m still unclear on if this debunking is Important, or just important. I’m not a Christian, so I’m missing any conversations about it in those circles, but is it getting a ton of attention or acclaim somewhere? I mean, the Bible is profoundly homophobic - any book about the Bible’s view of sex that doesn’t inevitably parrot that isn’t surprising, is it?
I don’t mean for this to be a criticism of this post - I really appreciated the arguments. I just would love more context on why this particular bad Christian book, and why it matters.
posted by Mchelly at 1:17 PM on June 29, 2023 [7 favorites]
I don’t mean for this to be a criticism of this post - I really appreciated the arguments. I just would love more context on why this particular bad Christian book, and why it matters.
posted by Mchelly at 1:17 PM on June 29, 2023 [7 favorites]
You cannot (or should not) give someone your penis the way you can give someone a cup of coffee.
But you CAN leave it at home when you think it's going to get you in trouble, or rent it out, when you don't need it.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 1:22 PM on June 29, 2023 [35 favorites]
But you CAN leave it at home when you think it's going to get you in trouble, or rent it out, when you don't need it.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 1:22 PM on June 29, 2023 [35 favorites]
The primary problem in these passages is that generosity - at least for men - has been cleverly redefined to be not-generosity. Generosity in sex is having your own orgasm. Sacrifice is the act of doing something extremely fun.This reminds me of the similar flip that goes on with conservative Christian child-rearing: Hurting your child is actually love, and being affectionate to your child is actually hate.
I'd write more, but I'm tired and this is depressing.
posted by clawsoon at 1:27 PM on June 29, 2023 [11 favorites]
I just would love more context on why this particular bad Christian book, and why it matters.
I'm not familiar with the conversation about this book either, but the conclusion makes the case for its importance:
I'm not familiar with the conversation about this book either, but the conclusion makes the case for its importance:
At the heart of all these discourses, the book and the backlash and the backlash-backlash is really just one question:posted by clawsoon at 1:41 PM on June 29, 2023 [7 favorites]
Do women ever say anything worth listening to?
The first round of the discourse, the production and promotion of Beautiful Union, answered that question with a resounding “no.” The text of Beautiful Women is quite clear: women don’t have anything to say that anyone needs to hear. Nothing women say is worth listening to enough to make it into this book. Women’s experiences of sexual pleasure aren’t worth relating. Women’s experiences of sex trafficking and sex work (i.e., charging for “hospitality”) aren’t worth listening to. Women’s experiences of reluctance to have sex, which lumps all feelings of shame, unfulfillment, and physical pain, under the heading of “inhospitality,” aren’t worth listening to. Women’s orgasms are subsumed under the heading of men’s orgasms - they happen in the same way, at the same time, in a way that gratifies men - just the way men like it. Women don’t have anything to say. They are one half of all heterosexual sex, and they have nothing important to say about the subject at all. The absence of women’s voices and experiences in this text is striking.
The answer in the backlash was even clearer. Women’s voices in the text were not relevant because we do not personally know the author. It was a mistake for TGC and the Keller Center to take women’s experiences on board. Women do not have access to pastorates or megaplatforms as men do; thus, their answers are from personal blogs and social media, which are chaotic and vicious and should not receive attention. Women don’t say things worth listening to.
I’m not a Christian, so I’m missing any conversations about it in those circles, but is it getting a ton of attention or acclaim somewhere?
What I gather from Twitter is that the website The Gospel Coalition published an excerpt from Joshua Butler's book, and it ignited a LOT of controversy. On one hand, from megachurch pastor/bestselling author Rick Warren, who called it "offensive and erroneous theology," and on the other hand from feminists, who thought it leaned too heavily toward complementarianism (i.e., the idea that men and women aren't equal but have separate and complementary roles). The controversy was such that The Gospel Coalition took down their excerpt and Joshua Butler resigned his pastorate. There has been much hand-wringing over Butler getting Canceled By Feminists!!! even though just as much of the anti-Butler sentiment seems to be from Evangelical types who think it's icky to talk about sex and salvation in the same breath.
posted by Jeanne at 1:53 PM on June 29, 2023 [11 favorites]
What I gather from Twitter is that the website The Gospel Coalition published an excerpt from Joshua Butler's book, and it ignited a LOT of controversy. On one hand, from megachurch pastor/bestselling author Rick Warren, who called it "offensive and erroneous theology," and on the other hand from feminists, who thought it leaned too heavily toward complementarianism (i.e., the idea that men and women aren't equal but have separate and complementary roles). The controversy was such that The Gospel Coalition took down their excerpt and Joshua Butler resigned his pastorate. There has been much hand-wringing over Butler getting Canceled By Feminists!!! even though just as much of the anti-Butler sentiment seems to be from Evangelical types who think it's icky to talk about sex and salvation in the same breath.
posted by Jeanne at 1:53 PM on June 29, 2023 [11 favorites]
Ok, I just read through all 7 parts of this instead of doing the work I should be doing today because her analysis was so thoughtfully written and entertaining. So thank you for posting this!
It's interesting to me that, as a non-Christian who grew up in the Methodist church and went hard-core youth-group style for a time (in my youth, obvs) how much I adore deep-dives written by Christians whose takes on theology I agree with. Maybe it just makes my past less embarrassing to me? Probably as simple as "yes, that's the stuff that drew me towards this at one time, taking on the stuff that drove me away." No matter.
What's clear here is that the "bad exegesis" she keeps coming back to is, at best, ex post facto to the conclusions the book wants to reach. This is nothing new, of course. Conservativism is rife with arguments where in order not to say the quiet part loud, duct-tape and spackle arguments are plastered onto the public discourse instead. But in conservative Christianity, the text is so often a bad fit for the conclusions that have to be reached that "bad exegesis" is almost inevitable. So not surprising.
What's almost funny here, however, is how that then highlights the conclusions they kinda feel like they're supposed to get to but don't care about that much, which is how that horrific rape analogy ends up in there. Like, they're thinking "Rape is bad, and we should mention that, I guess, so how do we get to that via the tortured framework we're already trying to sell? I know! It's like giving someone a gift they don't want!"
I, too, had never heard of this book before seeing this post. It seems from these posts that it made a ton of waves in a very particular tide-pool, as often happens with this sort of thing. But the conclusion (which clawsoon helpfully quoted above) makes clear why the response here is important, if nothing else.
posted by Navelgazer at 1:55 PM on June 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
It's interesting to me that, as a non-Christian who grew up in the Methodist church and went hard-core youth-group style for a time (in my youth, obvs) how much I adore deep-dives written by Christians whose takes on theology I agree with. Maybe it just makes my past less embarrassing to me? Probably as simple as "yes, that's the stuff that drew me towards this at one time, taking on the stuff that drove me away." No matter.
What's clear here is that the "bad exegesis" she keeps coming back to is, at best, ex post facto to the conclusions the book wants to reach. This is nothing new, of course. Conservativism is rife with arguments where in order not to say the quiet part loud, duct-tape and spackle arguments are plastered onto the public discourse instead. But in conservative Christianity, the text is so often a bad fit for the conclusions that have to be reached that "bad exegesis" is almost inevitable. So not surprising.
What's almost funny here, however, is how that then highlights the conclusions they kinda feel like they're supposed to get to but don't care about that much, which is how that horrific rape analogy ends up in there. Like, they're thinking "Rape is bad, and we should mention that, I guess, so how do we get to that via the tortured framework we're already trying to sell? I know! It's like giving someone a gift they don't want!"
I, too, had never heard of this book before seeing this post. It seems from these posts that it made a ton of waves in a very particular tide-pool, as often happens with this sort of thing. But the conclusion (which clawsoon helpfully quoted above) makes clear why the response here is important, if nothing else.
posted by Navelgazer at 1:55 PM on June 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
You cannot (or should not) give someone your penis the way you can give someone a cup of coffee.
now I kinda do want the next penis presented to me to be in one of those little cardboard sleeves with a mispronunciation of my name on it
posted by taquito sunrise at 2:03 PM on June 29, 2023 [20 favorites]
now I kinda do want the next penis presented to me to be in one of those little cardboard sleeves with a mispronunciation of my name on it
posted by taquito sunrise at 2:03 PM on June 29, 2023 [20 favorites]
Ohhhhhhh, it's that book. Archived excerpt: Sex Won’t Save You (But It Points to the One Who Will).
I could've sworn we made fun of that article here on Metafilter when it came out, but I'm not finding any previously.
posted by clawsoon at 2:04 PM on June 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
I could've sworn we made fun of that article here on Metafilter when it came out, but I'm not finding any previously.
posted by clawsoon at 2:04 PM on June 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
So, “Jesus saves” is actually a tantric message?
posted by Thorzdad at 2:11 PM on June 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Thorzdad at 2:11 PM on June 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
No you gotta twist it, so Jesus saves means that he spends. It happens to every guy.
posted by muddgirl at 2:20 PM on June 29, 2023
posted by muddgirl at 2:20 PM on June 29, 2023
You cannot (or should not) give someone your penis the way you can give someone a cup of coffee.
I've been presenting it handle-first on a little saucer, is that not right?
posted by Greg_Ace at 2:41 PM on June 29, 2023 [16 favorites]
I've been presenting it handle-first on a little saucer, is that not right?
posted by Greg_Ace at 2:41 PM on June 29, 2023 [16 favorites]
You cannot (or should not) give someone your penis the way you can give someone a cup of coffee.
But you CAN leave it at home when you think it's going to get you in trouble, or rent it out, when you don't need it.
I'm having trouble imagining how "renting it out" would work - whether we're talking about coffee or a penis...
posted by Greg_Ace at 2:46 PM on June 29, 2023
But you CAN leave it at home when you think it's going to get you in trouble, or rent it out, when you don't need it.
I'm having trouble imagining how "renting it out" would work - whether we're talking about coffee or a penis...
posted by Greg_Ace at 2:46 PM on June 29, 2023
You cannot (or should not) give someone your penis the way you can give someone a cup of coffee.
But you CAN leave it at home when you think it's going to get you in trouble, or rent it out, when you don't need it.
I'm having trouble imagining how "renting it out" would work - whether we're talking about coffee or a penis...
It is helpful to approach the issue with a certain sense of… detachment.
posted by notoriety public at 2:53 PM on June 29, 2023 [28 favorites]
But you CAN leave it at home when you think it's going to get you in trouble, or rent it out, when you don't need it.
I'm having trouble imagining how "renting it out" would work - whether we're talking about coffee or a penis...
It is helpful to approach the issue with a certain sense of… detachment.
posted by notoriety public at 2:53 PM on June 29, 2023 [28 favorites]
If ever there were a fight in which I have no dogs, this one would be it. The only reason I even looked at the first installment was to make certain of that.
I do think it's probably emblematic of something-or-other that the image chosen for the cover of the work that's being excoriated is itself an icon of Zen Buddhism, not Christianity.
posted by Aardvark Cheeselog at 2:58 PM on June 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
I do think it's probably emblematic of something-or-other that the image chosen for the cover of the work that's being excoriated is itself an icon of Zen Buddhism, not Christianity.
posted by Aardvark Cheeselog at 2:58 PM on June 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
It is helpful to approach the issue with a certain sense of… detachment.
Yeah, but am I really gonna want it back afterward? (again, applies to either)
posted by Greg_Ace at 3:01 PM on June 29, 2023
Yeah, but am I really gonna want it back afterward? (again, applies to either)
posted by Greg_Ace at 3:01 PM on June 29, 2023
I'm a formerly devout conservative Evangelical kid, currently a very liberal gay adult with a lot of the same religious and spiritual wiring as before but with a lot more respect for the great mysteries of life and a total allergy to organized Christian observance. I enjoyed skimming some of this, and I guess I'm happy that some theologians are engaging with the arguments as bad theology. As I googled around for some other voices discussing the same text, however, I got a little bummed out by the overall sex negative frame and overall concluded that I'm so glad to be out of mainstream Christian circles.
The christian bible has some great aspirational values for living as an individual and in community as well as some specific practices for reaching those values. The practices don't always lead to the values. Sex and intimate relationships is the place where it's most easy to see that strict adherence to the practices lead to exploitation, abuse, and unhappiness way more often than any fruit of the spirit.
therefore, increasingly unhealthy attempts to reconcile that reality emerge. tried and true strategies include devaluing the aspirational values (my mental image is some no dancing midwestern town filled with grim faced scandanavians), blaming the unhappy outcome on poor adherence to practice (the MLM/evangelical crossover point), and when all else fails, arguing that up is down (like evangelicals believe themselves to be kind and generous and most people find them to be patronizing jerks).
there's only so far you can get with critiquing this strain of thinking through a theological lens. sex that is joyful, peaceful, kind, gentle, faithful, and self controlled sounds pretty good to most people*! but you're absolutely not going to get there following biblical practices relating to gender roles, subordinating the body to the spirit, autonomy within the family, etc.
*and those who don't might think so too after the scene ends ;)
posted by mtthwkrl at 3:47 PM on June 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
The christian bible has some great aspirational values for living as an individual and in community as well as some specific practices for reaching those values. The practices don't always lead to the values. Sex and intimate relationships is the place where it's most easy to see that strict adherence to the practices lead to exploitation, abuse, and unhappiness way more often than any fruit of the spirit.
therefore, increasingly unhealthy attempts to reconcile that reality emerge. tried and true strategies include devaluing the aspirational values (my mental image is some no dancing midwestern town filled with grim faced scandanavians), blaming the unhappy outcome on poor adherence to practice (the MLM/evangelical crossover point), and when all else fails, arguing that up is down (like evangelicals believe themselves to be kind and generous and most people find them to be patronizing jerks).
there's only so far you can get with critiquing this strain of thinking through a theological lens. sex that is joyful, peaceful, kind, gentle, faithful, and self controlled sounds pretty good to most people*! but you're absolutely not going to get there following biblical practices relating to gender roles, subordinating the body to the spirit, autonomy within the family, etc.
*and those who don't might think so too after the scene ends ;)
posted by mtthwkrl at 3:47 PM on June 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
As a plain old mainline Protestant, not even remotely evangelical, this is some fucked up shit.
posted by hydropsyche at 4:22 PM on June 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by hydropsyche at 4:22 PM on June 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
(my mental image is some no dancing midwestern town filled with grim faced scandanavians)
I see you have visited my birthplace, if only in your mind.
posted by clawsoon at 4:27 PM on June 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
I see you have visited my birthplace, if only in your mind.
posted by clawsoon at 4:27 PM on June 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
Christian leaders of any stripe should be banned from talking about sex, it is always bad. They keep wanting to make it spiritual and ruin the fun.
posted by emjaybee at 5:44 PM on June 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by emjaybee at 5:44 PM on June 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
They keep wanting to make it spiritual and ruin the fun.
And that's in the best case. The other day I was reading some horrific libel about the Pride flag that was put out by a church, and it made this book seem enlightened by comparison.
posted by clawsoon at 6:58 PM on June 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
And that's in the best case. The other day I was reading some horrific libel about the Pride flag that was put out by a church, and it made this book seem enlightened by comparison.
posted by clawsoon at 6:58 PM on June 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
The real money shot (snerk) in this series is the extremely plausible hypothesis that that everyone involved in writing, editing, publishing, promoting, and defending this book is either a man whose wife is faking her orgasms and doesn’t know, or a woman who is faking her orgasms and elects not to tell.
Also, sing it, Sister Laura:
Also, sing it, Sister Laura:
It’s not fair women’s expertise is as good as amateurism, while men’s amateurism is as good as expertise. It’s not fair that women’s thoughtful criticism is as good as harassment while men’s harassment is as good as thoughtful criticism. It’s not fair that women’s collective knowledge is as good as an individual whim, while men’s individual whims are as good as collective experience. It’s not fair that women prioritize men’s feelings and reputation while men sideline women’s pain and safety.posted by BrashTech at 7:45 PM on June 29, 2023 [20 favorites]
This is a bit tangential, but I only found out recently about how the Old Testament has euphemisms where one body part stands for another part. So "foot" or "feet" stand in for "penis", so when it talks about how someone "uncovered his feet" in bed that's not what it means. So anyway that cleared up something that had baffled me decades ago about why in the Song of Solomon her navel is so wet.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 8:58 PM on June 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by TheophileEscargot at 8:58 PM on June 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
therefore, increasingly unhealthy attempts to reconcile that reality emerge. tried and true strategies include devaluing the aspirational values (my mental image is some no dancing midwestern town filled with grim faced scandanavians)
The fuck? Scandinavia does not have particularly prissy views on sex generally. Why are you bringing us into this?
posted by Dysk at 12:25 AM on June 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
The fuck? Scandinavia does not have particularly prissy views on sex generally. Why are you bringing us into this?
posted by Dysk at 12:25 AM on June 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
He once wrote an article about facials and how semen is a gift that men give to women and by refusing to let a man come on your face, you are rejecting his very personal and intimate self. Funny to see this same idea turn up as in biblical theology.[Grandpa Simpson doing a U-turn after entering Moe's and seeing Bart]
posted by rhizome at 2:06 AM on June 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
[Grandmpa Simpson doing a U-turn after entering Moe's la Maison Derrière and seeing Bart]
posted by Strutter Cane - United Planets Stilt Patrol at 3:17 AM on June 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Strutter Cane - United Planets Stilt Patrol at 3:17 AM on June 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
Scandinavia does not have particularly prissy views on sex generally. Why are you bringing us into this?
I'm guessing the ones who immigrated to America were the ones too uptight and prissy for other Scandinavians.
posted by kokaku at 3:26 AM on June 30, 2023 [6 favorites]
I'm guessing the ones who immigrated to America were the ones too uptight and prissy for other Scandinavians.
posted by kokaku at 3:26 AM on June 30, 2023 [6 favorites]
Dysk, the American midwest saw a wave of Scandinavian immigration around 100 to 200 years ago. The protestant churches there descend from the Sweden and Norway of the 1800s, quite removed from modern Scandinavia. Just one of the many distinct flavors of Christianity to be found here in the US.
posted by mbrubeck at 3:40 AM on June 30, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by mbrubeck at 3:40 AM on June 30, 2023 [8 favorites]
Sounds like you're talking about Midwestern faces then, not Scandinavians.
posted by Dysk at 4:39 AM on June 30, 2023
posted by Dysk at 4:39 AM on June 30, 2023
So anyway that cleared up something that had baffled me decades ago about why in the Song of Solomon her navel is so wet.
To be fair, the narrator in the Sing also thinks her eyes look like bunches of birds and her neck looks like a fortified tower, so the smart money is that the narrator is high as hell.
Slightly more seriously, the series strongly underlined how badly theology goes when only one perspective is heard (which is almost always, and the missing perspective is almost always “women”). No wonder we’re a mess.
posted by GenjiandProust at 4:55 AM on June 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
To be fair, the narrator in the Sing also thinks her eyes look like bunches of birds and her neck looks like a fortified tower, so the smart money is that the narrator is high as hell.
Slightly more seriously, the series strongly underlined how badly theology goes when only one perspective is heard (which is almost always, and the missing perspective is almost always “women”). No wonder we’re a mess.
posted by GenjiandProust at 4:55 AM on June 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
GenjiandProust: Slightly more seriously, the series strongly underlined how badly theology goes when only one perspective is heard (which is almost always, and the missing perspective is almost always “women”). No wonder we’re a mess.
I think it may be unavoidable for theology to always circle back to being this way. It's literally the act of arguing that an invisible all-powerful being agrees with your position on an issue. That framing is not an invitation to respect multiple perspectives.
posted by clawsoon at 6:22 AM on June 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
I think it may be unavoidable for theology to always circle back to being this way. It's literally the act of arguing that an invisible all-powerful being agrees with your position on an issue. That framing is not an invitation to respect multiple perspectives.
posted by clawsoon at 6:22 AM on June 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
That is how white evangelical Christian theology generally works. Most other theologians engage in dialogue and see multiple sides of everything. As a very obvious example, that is the whole of the Jewish theological tradition.
posted by hydropsyche at 7:17 AM on June 30, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by hydropsyche at 7:17 AM on June 30, 2023 [9 favorites]
That is how white evangelical Christian theology generally works. Most other theologians engage in dialogue and see multiple sides of everything.
Yes, it's frustrating to see them set themselves up as intellectuals, "studying" the Bible with notes and highlighters (ladies even Instagram this), cranking out texts and chattering online, all in the service of foregone conclusions. It's all cargo-cult academia if you're not allowed to come to conclusions that wouldn't be at home in the GOP platform.
I read this last night and couldn't quit thinking about the impact of women's inability to be honest about orgasms and the evangelical inability to listen even if they were. To be fair, that's not just evangelical men by a long shot, and I can hardly blame the women. Even as a secular woman, it often seems emotionally unsafe to have a conversation about what is actually pleasing in bed. I can't imagine how much worse the pressure would be for a woman raised in an evangelical context, if she could even recognize that something was missing.
posted by Countess Elena at 7:44 AM on June 30, 2023 [7 favorites]
Yes, it's frustrating to see them set themselves up as intellectuals, "studying" the Bible with notes and highlighters (ladies even Instagram this), cranking out texts and chattering online, all in the service of foregone conclusions. It's all cargo-cult academia if you're not allowed to come to conclusions that wouldn't be at home in the GOP platform.
I read this last night and couldn't quit thinking about the impact of women's inability to be honest about orgasms and the evangelical inability to listen even if they were. To be fair, that's not just evangelical men by a long shot, and I can hardly blame the women. Even as a secular woman, it often seems emotionally unsafe to have a conversation about what is actually pleasing in bed. I can't imagine how much worse the pressure would be for a woman raised in an evangelical context, if she could even recognize that something was missing.
posted by Countess Elena at 7:44 AM on June 30, 2023 [7 favorites]
I think it may be unavoidable for theology to always circle back to being this way.
Most Christian sects haven’t worked this way. Issues of theology tend to get hashed out in various synods, councils, convocations, etc. (which have all almost completely excluded women.)
Part of the problem with Evangelicals is that almost all of the churches use a presbyterian or congregationalist structure, where decisions are made by a small group of elders or the congregation as a whole. This is largely an effect of the shattering of Protestant uniformity in England and Scotland in the 17th C. The upshot of this is that there is no central authority, only loose groups of churches “in communion” with each other (ie being close enough in theology to allow shared communion and member migration). If the congregation doesn’t like the pastor/minister/whatever’s take on theology, either they leave or he does.
This has led to a lot of broad theological writing that informs the Evangelical theology. There’s a general pattern but a lot of variation. Because it’s an echo chamber, the theology is often low quality, as Robinson points out at some length. So it isn’t really “one guy.”
posted by GenjiandProust at 10:26 AM on June 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
Most Christian sects haven’t worked this way. Issues of theology tend to get hashed out in various synods, councils, convocations, etc. (which have all almost completely excluded women.)
Part of the problem with Evangelicals is that almost all of the churches use a presbyterian or congregationalist structure, where decisions are made by a small group of elders or the congregation as a whole. This is largely an effect of the shattering of Protestant uniformity in England and Scotland in the 17th C. The upshot of this is that there is no central authority, only loose groups of churches “in communion” with each other (ie being close enough in theology to allow shared communion and member migration). If the congregation doesn’t like the pastor/minister/whatever’s take on theology, either they leave or he does.
This has led to a lot of broad theological writing that informs the Evangelical theology. There’s a general pattern but a lot of variation. Because it’s an echo chamber, the theology is often low quality, as Robinson points out at some length. So it isn’t really “one guy.”
posted by GenjiandProust at 10:26 AM on June 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
GenjiandProust: Most Christian sects haven’t worked this way. Issues of theology tend to get hashed out in various synods, councils, convocations, etc. (which have all almost completely excluded women.)
I see those as being part of the process of having the all-powerful being on the side of your position. Starting from the very earliest councils, the goal has never been to wrap up the council with a renewed appreciation for the varieties of Christian belief; the goal has always been to wrap up with a decision which can be imposed on all Christians in the name of God.
This approach follows directly from stuff that both Jesus and Paul said in the Bible about exclusively correct belief, so it's not surprising.
posted by clawsoon at 10:51 AM on June 30, 2023
I see those as being part of the process of having the all-powerful being on the side of your position. Starting from the very earliest councils, the goal has never been to wrap up the council with a renewed appreciation for the varieties of Christian belief; the goal has always been to wrap up with a decision which can be imposed on all Christians in the name of God.
This approach follows directly from stuff that both Jesus and Paul said in the Bible about exclusively correct belief, so it's not surprising.
posted by clawsoon at 10:51 AM on June 30, 2023
Pretty sure god is a transman.
posted by RisforKickin at 11:13 AM on June 30, 2023
posted by RisforKickin at 11:13 AM on June 30, 2023
After all, no one ever hated their own bodyGosh.
posted by pmbuko at 1:12 PM on June 30, 2023 [4 favorites]
After all, no one ever hated their own bodyGosh.
Ironically, that was written by a guy who was constantly talking about how "the flesh" is bad.
posted by clawsoon at 1:21 PM on June 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
Y'all keep having your serious conversation, my formerly Christian self will just be over in this corner giggling about the Holy Spirit being Jesus Jizz.
posted by solotoro at 12:04 AM on July 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by solotoro at 12:04 AM on July 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
Y'all keep having your serious conversation, my formerly Christian self will just be over in this corner giggling about the Holy Spirit being Jesus Jizz.
Christ Cream?
posted by clawsoon at 5:09 AM on July 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
Christ Cream?
posted by clawsoon at 5:09 AM on July 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
Old Testament has euphemisms where one body part stands for another part. So "foot" or "feet" stand in for "penis"
Also, outside of sexual contexts, "covering (or uncovering) one's feet" is relieving oneself, which has often been left opaque by prudish translators. So in Judges 3, after Ehud kills the Moabite tyrant Eglon, what his servants are doing while he sneaks out the window is standing around saying, "huh, the boss has been taking a shit for an awful long time. Should someone maybe go in and look in on him?", and in 1 Samuel 24, David sneaks up on Saul while he's pissing in a cave.
But, yeah, specifically in the book of Ruth, the advice Naomi gives, and Ruth takes, is, in context, an explicit sexual overture, and that definitely doesn't come through in translations. Ruth 3:4 often reads more like, "throw yourself on the mercy of your husband's family, and see what advice the local head gives you" than "give your cousin a handjob, maybe he'll marry you". But the latter's almost certainly closer to the actual sense of the original text.
posted by jackbishop at 7:02 AM on July 1, 2023 [5 favorites]
Also, outside of sexual contexts, "covering (or uncovering) one's feet" is relieving oneself, which has often been left opaque by prudish translators. So in Judges 3, after Ehud kills the Moabite tyrant Eglon, what his servants are doing while he sneaks out the window is standing around saying, "huh, the boss has been taking a shit for an awful long time. Should someone maybe go in and look in on him?", and in 1 Samuel 24, David sneaks up on Saul while he's pissing in a cave.
But, yeah, specifically in the book of Ruth, the advice Naomi gives, and Ruth takes, is, in context, an explicit sexual overture, and that definitely doesn't come through in translations. Ruth 3:4 often reads more like, "throw yourself on the mercy of your husband's family, and see what advice the local head gives you" than "give your cousin a handjob, maybe he'll marry you". But the latter's almost certainly closer to the actual sense of the original text.
posted by jackbishop at 7:02 AM on July 1, 2023 [5 favorites]
Ruth 3:4 often reads more like, "throw yourself on the mercy of your husband's family, and see what advice the local head gives you" than "give your cousin a handjob, maybe he'll marry you". But the latter's almost certainly closer to the actual sense of the original text.
And it's much more fun to imagine Ruth, after whom so many parents have named girls in hopes that they would grow up to be chaste and pure and demure, bagging her man with a well-timed handjob.
posted by clawsoon at 1:07 PM on July 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
And it's much more fun to imagine Ruth, after whom so many parents have named girls in hopes that they would grow up to be chaste and pure and demure, bagging her man with a well-timed handjob.
posted by clawsoon at 1:07 PM on July 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
"Your name's Ruth? Like the handjob lady from the Old Testament?"
posted by rhizome at 2:32 PM on July 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by rhizome at 2:32 PM on July 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
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posted by AlSweigart at 11:51 AM on June 29, 2023 [8 favorites]