Late Stage Carpoolism
July 25, 2023 4:28 PM Subscribe
Autoenshittification - Cory Doctorow on the auto industries efforts maximize the exploitativeness of your car by turning it into an ink-jet printer with wheels.
I was hopping it would be about how you enshittify yourself….
posted by GenjiandProust at 4:41 PM on July 25, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by GenjiandProust at 4:41 PM on July 25, 2023 [11 favorites]
If you can’t see who the car and/or technology company is shitting on, it’s you…
posted by Artw at 4:44 PM on July 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 4:44 PM on July 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
I know I'm going to be in the market for an electric (electronic? Electrical?) car in the next few years and I'm worried about having to navigate this bs.
posted by rebent at 5:01 PM on July 25, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by rebent at 5:01 PM on July 25, 2023 [6 favorites]
Get an e-bike. Parts are too interchangeable for autoenshittification to set in.
posted by ocschwar at 5:02 PM on July 25, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by ocschwar at 5:02 PM on July 25, 2023 [5 favorites]
The battery in my 15-year-old hybrid Camry died recently. Replacement cost a couple hundred bucks for labor, but close to four thousand for the parts.
posted by Faint of Butt at 5:17 PM on July 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Faint of Butt at 5:17 PM on July 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
Get an e-bike. Parts are too interchangeable for autoenshittification to set in.
Well, not this brand: What VanMoof’s Fall Means for the Future of Premium E-Bikes
Well, not this brand: What VanMoof’s Fall Means for the Future of Premium E-Bikes
It didn’t help that VanMoof was built with a lot of custom parts, meaning that only VanMoof could provide spare parts or conduct repairs.posted by meowzilla at 5:26 PM on July 25, 2023 [7 favorites]
[...]
Fortunately, VanMoof says its e-bikes will still be functional even though it uses a locking system through your phone. It also says it will keep the VanMoof app and servers online, but that’s not a guarantee, so it recommends creating a backup unlock code to unlock your bike through the handlebars.
Well, not this brand
Or any brand. Walk into your closest bike shop that specializes in e-bikes and say the words "So I bought this thing online..." and count how many seconds it takes for the shop worker to start ushering you out the door.
posted by Back At It Again At Krispy Kreme at 5:35 PM on July 25, 2023 [9 favorites]
Or any brand. Walk into your closest bike shop that specializes in e-bikes and say the words "So I bought this thing online..." and count how many seconds it takes for the shop worker to start ushering you out the door.
posted by Back At It Again At Krispy Kreme at 5:35 PM on July 25, 2023 [9 favorites]
I'm not really in the market for a new car, but I'm keeping my eyes peeled for something like a low mileage Crown Vic from the 90s, something a little old lady used to drive to church and the grocery store and kept in a garage
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 5:36 PM on July 25, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 5:36 PM on July 25, 2023 [5 favorites]
I have also thought about finding a garage queen, like, 2001 Camry and having an electric conversion done on it. The rest of the parts are still super common and will be for years.
posted by rockindata at 5:40 PM on July 25, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by rockindata at 5:40 PM on July 25, 2023 [5 favorites]
I'm not at the e-bike stage yet (my "acoustic bike," as they seem to be called these days, still does me just fine) but I sure am paying attention to which brands my local bike shops proclaim they'll fix.
As for cars, I Zipcarred a Honda CR-V last week and good lord it was awful. More weird jiggery-pokery crammed into that car than any six cars need. It's not the enshittification Doctorow is talking about, but I still considered that car pretty shitty.
posted by humbug at 5:52 PM on July 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
As for cars, I Zipcarred a Honda CR-V last week and good lord it was awful. More weird jiggery-pokery crammed into that car than any six cars need. It's not the enshittification Doctorow is talking about, but I still considered that car pretty shitty.
posted by humbug at 5:52 PM on July 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
Big fan of the enshittification concept, but this rant isn’t at the same level. It seems to take a lot of smaller ideas and build them up to prove a point that maybe didn’t happen, or was an isolated case. I feel like this weakens the prior concepts of enshittification which were astutely observed and recorded.
Also, on a personal note, the car execs I’ve met have been mind-boggling bland, not super smart evil dudes with nefarious plans. They don’t have the wattage to put together a terrible auto-snitching car that sells your details.
posted by The River Ivel at 6:03 PM on July 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
Also, on a personal note, the car execs I’ve met have been mind-boggling bland, not super smart evil dudes with nefarious plans. They don’t have the wattage to put together a terrible auto-snitching car that sells your details.
posted by The River Ivel at 6:03 PM on July 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
I followed links to this article by Doctorow about Colorado passing a right-to-repair law for electric wheelchairs last year. I'm a mobility scooter user, and very familiar with the dynamic he describes re: insurance/medicaid only covering not-great devices, ending up using an indoor chair outdoors, the whole nine yards. I commute by bus, and will need a more heavy-duty scooter to be able to manage it when the weather changes for winter, and there's really no support for for acquiring such a thing. I'm lucky that there is a person near me whose business is finding used electric wheelchairs and scooters, refurbishing them and putting in new batteries, and selling them at a fraction of what they cost new. That's probably how I'll get a heavy-duty scooter with lights, bigger wheels, a longer range, etc, and it will be somewhere between $1000 and $1500, most likely. The kind of thing I need can be $3k-5k new.
posted by Well I never at 6:07 PM on July 25, 2023 [13 favorites]
posted by Well I never at 6:07 PM on July 25, 2023 [13 favorites]
the car execs I’ve met have been mind-boggling bland, not super smart evil dudes with nefarious plans. They don’t have the wattage to put together a terrible auto-snitching car that sells your details.
Sufficiently advanced greed and stupidity is indistinguishable from malice. They’re not doing it to be evil, they’re doing it because It’s a lazy way to make money.
posted by zamboni at 6:15 PM on July 25, 2023 [16 favorites]
Sufficiently advanced greed and stupidity is indistinguishable from malice. They’re not doing it to be evil, they’re doing it because It’s a lazy way to make money.
posted by zamboni at 6:15 PM on July 25, 2023 [16 favorites]
I was hopping it would be about how you enshittify yourself…
You're thinking of autoenshitisphyixiation, which is the where you eventually kill yourself trying to wring some last gasp of pleasure out of your social media feeds.
posted by The Bellman at 6:18 PM on July 25, 2023 [13 favorites]
You're thinking of autoenshitisphyixiation, which is the where you eventually kill yourself trying to wring some last gasp of pleasure out of your social media feeds.
posted by The Bellman at 6:18 PM on July 25, 2023 [13 favorites]
Get an e-bike. Parts are too interchangeable for autoenshittification to set in.
Oh man, there are so many cheap ebikes out there with weird proprietary batteries and shapes now, not to mention the problem with Bike Shaped Objects where everything from the frame to the components to the ebike parts are total crap even without compatibility issues.
And, yeah, a lot of brick and mortar bike shops are refusing to service them at all even for a flat tire or brake adjustment or something that doesn't even involve the ebike part because of how much of an insurance liability the cheap DTC ebikes are, especially the fat tire minibike/scooter class.
Like I would not be surprised or shocked that if I went into a random LBS where they didn't know me they would refuse service on my actually rather good DIY ebike built on a real bike specifically just because it's a DIY ebike.
And it's not really about them being snooty about ebikes. It's that the glut of all the cheap Direct to Consumer and drop shipped ebikes are really often that bad and they can't stand behind their work on important things like brakes or wheels if the components aren't up for the task.
One of the things that's happening right now with the cycling world is that there's been a huge influx of brand new cyclists riding ebikes who have basically zero experience with cycling, and they don't understand things like how bikes need regular maintenance and repairs, that parts like chains, gears, brake pads and tires are all consumable parts that need regularly scheduled replacements and more.
Or that $1000 isn't really that much to spend on a nice analog bike, and getting a complete ebike for less than that might be suspicious.
And that these replacement parts need to be compatible with each other and how you can't just buy, say, a new rear derailleur and make it work with their existing no-name shifter without also replacing and upgrading the shifter, or that a lot of bike shops might not have any stock of weird 20x4" tire sizes for fat tire e-scooters, or rims that fit them, or even know anything at all about the ebike parts of their bike.
Which is less of problem with an analog/acoustic department store bike shaped object because it just gets too hard to ride and it sits in the garage or gets sold at a garage sale or whatever.
But it's a lot more hazardous when these deficiencies can powered through with a motor and battery and it's kind of a problem for safety and many other reasons, including the whole concept of having a nice bike.
I've seen this discussion on bike mechanic and shop forums and a lot of these indie shops are being required by the meager liability insurance policies they can barely afford are *requiring* them to not work on ebikes, which is why you don't see very many small/indie shops carrying ready to ride ebikes at all unless they're a Trek, Giant, Specialized or other big name authorized dealer.
Anyway, the enshittification of mass market ebikes started from day one.
posted by loquacious at 6:22 PM on July 25, 2023 [31 favorites]
Oh man, there are so many cheap ebikes out there with weird proprietary batteries and shapes now, not to mention the problem with Bike Shaped Objects where everything from the frame to the components to the ebike parts are total crap even without compatibility issues.
And, yeah, a lot of brick and mortar bike shops are refusing to service them at all even for a flat tire or brake adjustment or something that doesn't even involve the ebike part because of how much of an insurance liability the cheap DTC ebikes are, especially the fat tire minibike/scooter class.
Like I would not be surprised or shocked that if I went into a random LBS where they didn't know me they would refuse service on my actually rather good DIY ebike built on a real bike specifically just because it's a DIY ebike.
And it's not really about them being snooty about ebikes. It's that the glut of all the cheap Direct to Consumer and drop shipped ebikes are really often that bad and they can't stand behind their work on important things like brakes or wheels if the components aren't up for the task.
One of the things that's happening right now with the cycling world is that there's been a huge influx of brand new cyclists riding ebikes who have basically zero experience with cycling, and they don't understand things like how bikes need regular maintenance and repairs, that parts like chains, gears, brake pads and tires are all consumable parts that need regularly scheduled replacements and more.
Or that $1000 isn't really that much to spend on a nice analog bike, and getting a complete ebike for less than that might be suspicious.
And that these replacement parts need to be compatible with each other and how you can't just buy, say, a new rear derailleur and make it work with their existing no-name shifter without also replacing and upgrading the shifter, or that a lot of bike shops might not have any stock of weird 20x4" tire sizes for fat tire e-scooters, or rims that fit them, or even know anything at all about the ebike parts of their bike.
Which is less of problem with an analog/acoustic department store bike shaped object because it just gets too hard to ride and it sits in the garage or gets sold at a garage sale or whatever.
But it's a lot more hazardous when these deficiencies can powered through with a motor and battery and it's kind of a problem for safety and many other reasons, including the whole concept of having a nice bike.
I've seen this discussion on bike mechanic and shop forums and a lot of these indie shops are being required by the meager liability insurance policies they can barely afford are *requiring* them to not work on ebikes, which is why you don't see very many small/indie shops carrying ready to ride ebikes at all unless they're a Trek, Giant, Specialized or other big name authorized dealer.
Anyway, the enshittification of mass market ebikes started from day one.
posted by loquacious at 6:22 PM on July 25, 2023 [31 favorites]
Hey why do we need Cory to coin several new terms that mean 'capitalism, but when I don't like it bc I personally feel the pain it has always been dealing by grinding poorer people into a pulp, but I didn't notice until it hit my life'.
posted by SaltySalticid at 6:39 PM on July 25, 2023 [22 favorites]
posted by SaltySalticid at 6:39 PM on July 25, 2023 [22 favorites]
If you could get half the traction complaining about the evils of capitalism that Cory's generated bycoining a new term, then no we wouldn't need the new terms. But clearly the average ____ on the street tunes out the minute "capitalism" gets mentioned (whether due to repetition or from being an active participant, the result is the same).
posted by cfraenkel at 7:25 PM on July 25, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by cfraenkel at 7:25 PM on July 25, 2023 [9 favorites]
I'm ebiking so f-ing hard right now.
I literally have to put calories in keeping my mouth shut about the awesome.
but yes. pretty soon the tools won't even need us.
posted by MonsieurPEB at 7:25 PM on July 25, 2023
I literally have to put calories in keeping my mouth shut about the awesome.
but yes. pretty soon the tools won't even need us.
posted by MonsieurPEB at 7:25 PM on July 25, 2023
The part in where he mentions shredding phones and computers so their chips can’t be repurposed strikes me as this century’s equivalent to bulldozing all of the walkable downtowns and train lines to build highways and parking lots.
posted by Jon_Evil at 7:30 PM on July 25, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Jon_Evil at 7:30 PM on July 25, 2023 [4 favorites]
I read a thing recently about car companies putting all the equipment in to cars to let them have heated seats but then making heated seats a monthly subscription and my immediate reaction is that sort of thing should be illegal. You shouldn't be allowed to sell someone a device with built in hardware and then hold it for ransom.
posted by jacquilynne at 7:30 PM on July 25, 2023 [23 favorites]
posted by jacquilynne at 7:30 PM on July 25, 2023 [23 favorites]
US businesses are acting like you would expect businesses to act in an authoritarian state where the business elites and political elites had essentially merged.
Almost like there was some plan in place that didn’t quite work out, and now they’re getting all this pushback that wasn’t supposed to be possible at this point.
posted by jamjam at 7:47 PM on July 25, 2023 [12 favorites]
Almost like there was some plan in place that didn’t quite work out, and now they’re getting all this pushback that wasn’t supposed to be possible at this point.
posted by jamjam at 7:47 PM on July 25, 2023 [12 favorites]
Nice long-ish short story linked here, too!
Unauthorized Bread
posted by sixswitch at 7:55 PM on July 25, 2023 [4 favorites]
Unauthorized Bread
posted by sixswitch at 7:55 PM on July 25, 2023 [4 favorites]
. But clearly the average ____ on the street tunes out the minute "capitalism" gets mentioned
I did see the Crisis of Capitalism explained quite succinctly on an Amazon Show the other day... I mean, it was Boots Riley, but still... Amazon paying for it... weird.
posted by Artw at 8:05 PM on July 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
I did see the Crisis of Capitalism explained quite succinctly on an Amazon Show the other day... I mean, it was Boots Riley, but still... Amazon paying for it... weird.
posted by Artw at 8:05 PM on July 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
i recently got a cpap machine and it's the most insane thing. subscriptions for everything, notifications pushed to me telling me to buy a replacement mask 4 months in, which, at $250 a pop (absurd!), would mean $750 a year in masks (I refuse to believe it needs to be replaced already, it works just fine). They want me to pay a yearly subscription to talk to someone who will adjust your air flow levels but the conversation is mostly: do you think it's enough air? ok, I'll increase it. They do not tell you that you can in fact access hidden menus on the device and make these changes yourself. It's just fuckery, it's madness. They've captured healthy sleep and turned it into a source of rent.
posted by dis_integration at 8:48 PM on July 25, 2023 [37 favorites]
posted by dis_integration at 8:48 PM on July 25, 2023 [37 favorites]
I just fell in love with my first love (28 years ya'll!!) after dating white collar idiots for years. He's a mechanic, and I have never felt safer in my goddamned life. I'mma move to the country and help him raise some chickens or something. Just because he can fix ANYTHING...including my anxiety about all of THIS SHIT.
posted by lextex at 9:15 PM on July 25, 2023 [16 favorites]
posted by lextex at 9:15 PM on July 25, 2023 [16 favorites]
Today, we live in a rentier's paradise. People don't aspire to create value – they aspire to capture it. In Survival of the Richest, Doug Rushkoff calls this "going meta": don't provide a service, just figure out a way to interpose yourself between the provider and the customer...I will take this opportunity to point out something I learned recently: the word "entrepreneur" comes from French roots, "entre" and "prendre," literally "to seize from between."
posted by Western Infidels at 9:46 PM on July 25, 2023 [24 favorites]
It seems to take a lot of smaller ideas and build them up to prove a point that maybe didn’t happen, or was an isolated case.
That describes a lot of Cory Doctorow's writing.
I've learned thru hard experience not to repost any of the claims he makes without fact checking them first.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 9:59 PM on July 25, 2023 [12 favorites]
That describes a lot of Cory Doctorow's writing.
I've learned thru hard experience not to repost any of the claims he makes without fact checking them first.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 9:59 PM on July 25, 2023 [12 favorites]
There are a lot of problems with cars now, but there a bunch of advantages that electronics bring, from improved engine reliability, better emissions controls, better safety, and lighter weight.
The microchips also help reduce the large number of copper cables that would otherwise be needed to send signals all throughout the car. There have been reports of people pulling off car headlights to attach a hacking component onto the CAN bus to steal the car, and so encryption can help with that problem.
That said, hell no to leasing my car's heater.
posted by coberh at 10:01 PM on July 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
The microchips also help reduce the large number of copper cables that would otherwise be needed to send signals all throughout the car. There have been reports of people pulling off car headlights to attach a hacking component onto the CAN bus to steal the car, and so encryption can help with that problem.
That said, hell no to leasing my car's heater.
posted by coberh at 10:01 PM on July 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
Gotta disagree. I love CarPlay, and it works 99.9 percent of the time which is more reliable than either my phone or laptop. I’m at 60k miles and the only maintenance has been the standard stuff. Civics are awesome and you can fully offset its lifetime emissions for less than the difference between it an an electric with decent range.
posted by hermanubis at 11:46 PM on July 25, 2023
posted by hermanubis at 11:46 PM on July 25, 2023
I love CarPlay too. I actually love all of the digital-features-Cory-says-I'm-supposed-to-hate about my Chevy Bolt. Everything works as it should from the overhead camera to the charging system to the extra safety cameras and indicators to the app that lets me start my car.
Unfortunately Chevy is discontinuing CarPlay (and Android Auto) on their newer EVs and their CEO admitted that the main reason is so that they can push owners into subscription services. (Chevy's subscription services, not Apple's.)
So although I was half-lost reading this rambling article, I have to give Doctorow a point.
posted by mmoncur at 1:10 AM on July 26, 2023 [6 favorites]
Unfortunately Chevy is discontinuing CarPlay (and Android Auto) on their newer EVs and their CEO admitted that the main reason is so that they can push owners into subscription services. (Chevy's subscription services, not Apple's.)
So although I was half-lost reading this rambling article, I have to give Doctorow a point.
posted by mmoncur at 1:10 AM on July 26, 2023 [6 favorites]
my "acoustic bike," as they seem to be called these days
I'm stealing this, and Ima start yelling "Judas!" at every e-biker who passes me.
[not seriously, you go you on your e-bike. they aren't for me but I totally get the desire.]
posted by chavenet at 2:46 AM on July 26, 2023 [3 favorites]
I'm stealing this, and Ima start yelling "Judas!" at every e-biker who passes me.
[not seriously, you go you on your e-bike. they aren't for me but I totally get the desire.]
posted by chavenet at 2:46 AM on July 26, 2023 [3 favorites]
We have four gas cars, ranging in age from 2005 to 2012. That's over fifty years of service on New England roads. Thanks, Toyota & Subaru!
We would love to have an electric car, since most (but not all!) of our drives are 50 miles one way or less.
And pretty soon we will probably be forced to buy....something. The longer we wait, the better our choices should be. I hope.
posted by wenestvedt at 6:03 AM on July 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
We would love to have an electric car, since most (but not all!) of our drives are 50 miles one way or less.
And pretty soon we will probably be forced to buy....something. The longer we wait, the better our choices should be. I hope.
posted by wenestvedt at 6:03 AM on July 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
From the article: why the car-makers are making their products less attractive, less reliable, less safe, and less resilient by stuffing them full of microchips
Acknowledging that he includes a link/citation for each of his claims, I don't buy this. Cars are safer and more reliable than they used to be. "Less attractive" is subjective, but people are not overwhelmingly buying only the most simple vehicles or rejecting new cars in favor of very old cars -- demand is strongest for vehicles with all the bells and whistles.
TLDR if you have an aging ICE car, this current car market and the transitional state of auto engineering strongly suggests you should spend the money to keep the old machine on the road as long as possible, which also has environmental benefits that may offset a small improvement in fuel mileage from buying a new hybrid.
Faced with much the same choice recently (aging car; almost entirely highway driving) I ended up choosing to buy a new gas-engine (not hybrid) car. Hybrid doesn't make sense for how I drive, and neither do electric cars just yet. I'm certain that the car that follows this one will be electric; by then the range and charging infrastructure should have caught up to where they need to be.
It still remains to be seen how reliable my new vehicle is over time, but at least initially, I am appreciating the increased safety features and having Apple car play. There's nothing that requires a subscription for basic functionality. I'm just not experiencing what the article describes; if it is a trend, it is not yet universal.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:18 AM on July 26, 2023 [3 favorites]
Acknowledging that he includes a link/citation for each of his claims, I don't buy this. Cars are safer and more reliable than they used to be. "Less attractive" is subjective, but people are not overwhelmingly buying only the most simple vehicles or rejecting new cars in favor of very old cars -- demand is strongest for vehicles with all the bells and whistles.
TLDR if you have an aging ICE car, this current car market and the transitional state of auto engineering strongly suggests you should spend the money to keep the old machine on the road as long as possible, which also has environmental benefits that may offset a small improvement in fuel mileage from buying a new hybrid.
Faced with much the same choice recently (aging car; almost entirely highway driving) I ended up choosing to buy a new gas-engine (not hybrid) car. Hybrid doesn't make sense for how I drive, and neither do electric cars just yet. I'm certain that the car that follows this one will be electric; by then the range and charging infrastructure should have caught up to where they need to be.
It still remains to be seen how reliable my new vehicle is over time, but at least initially, I am appreciating the increased safety features and having Apple car play. There's nothing that requires a subscription for basic functionality. I'm just not experiencing what the article describes; if it is a trend, it is not yet universal.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:18 AM on July 26, 2023 [3 favorites]
I've done the math on switching to a 50mpg new Prius, which even without the obligatory obscene dealer markups and long wait, would cost more than $35,000.
My 2014 Prius C cost $19K. So far I've needed to replace the 12V battery (last month) and a couple of tires, and regular scheduled maintenance. It averages 50MPG and has been great. Granted, it's not very high mileage due to barely driving at all during lockdown and now working from home 4 days a week, but I've taken a few long trips with it so it's not low mileage either.
Of course, they discontinued the Prius C and all the new ones are more expensive...
Compare that to the Mitsubishi Lancer I bought in 2003 for $17K which got 32MPG, failed safety and emissions inspections four times, needed the front sway bars replaced twice, went through several tires (faster wear than normal and some bad luck running over debris), the air conditioner repaired twice (and it was dead again at the time I sold it), water pump replacement, a battery, belts replaced twice, plus the regular scheduled maintenance.
posted by Foosnark at 6:25 AM on July 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
My 2014 Prius C cost $19K. So far I've needed to replace the 12V battery (last month) and a couple of tires, and regular scheduled maintenance. It averages 50MPG and has been great. Granted, it's not very high mileage due to barely driving at all during lockdown and now working from home 4 days a week, but I've taken a few long trips with it so it's not low mileage either.
Of course, they discontinued the Prius C and all the new ones are more expensive...
Compare that to the Mitsubishi Lancer I bought in 2003 for $17K which got 32MPG, failed safety and emissions inspections four times, needed the front sway bars replaced twice, went through several tires (faster wear than normal and some bad luck running over debris), the air conditioner repaired twice (and it was dead again at the time I sold it), water pump replacement, a battery, belts replaced twice, plus the regular scheduled maintenance.
posted by Foosnark at 6:25 AM on July 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
I'm stealing this, and Ima start yelling "Judas!" at every e-biker who passes me.
One of the first times I used an ebike, we cycled up a mountain in Austria, and when I cycled past one walker at the top, he spouted "electro!" and spat on the floor.
posted by biffa at 7:17 AM on July 26, 2023 [4 favorites]
One of the first times I used an ebike, we cycled up a mountain in Austria, and when I cycled past one walker at the top, he spouted "electro!" and spat on the floor.
posted by biffa at 7:17 AM on July 26, 2023 [4 favorites]
I really like the work that Doctorow has put into a lot of these posts lately. This felt very strong, even if I’m not sure I buy all of his arguments. I definitely feel like a car company that made a back-to-basics vehicle with fewer electronic moving pieces to appeal to a DIY audience might actually have a market. It won’t happen, because profit, but I know I’d consider it. Put next to the Luddite post one thread up and it’s hard not to see how the advancement of tech solely for profit’s sake as not a victimless progression.
Our 2008 Honda just failed its latest inspection, and the repair it will need is about a third of its blue book value, so we’re torn right now about what we want to do. Getting a hybrid makes a lot of sense for us (we can’t do an all-electric), but keeping what we have for another year or so might, too. So this is giving me a lot to think about.
posted by Mchelly at 7:54 AM on July 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
Our 2008 Honda just failed its latest inspection, and the repair it will need is about a third of its blue book value, so we’re torn right now about what we want to do. Getting a hybrid makes a lot of sense for us (we can’t do an all-electric), but keeping what we have for another year or so might, too. So this is giving me a lot to think about.
posted by Mchelly at 7:54 AM on July 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
Sufficiently advanced greed and stupidity is indistinguishable from malice. They’re not doing it to be evil, they’re doing it because It’s a lazy way to make money.
I mean, there's some guys who just love getting money from everybody else, who love fucking over people over for money. They end up as bankers or career criminals. But the guys who are making cars at the minute generally just love cars, and they think that everybody else loves cars too. The reason that they are enshitting their car infortainment system and controls is the general zeitgeist of the times. Compare this to Volvo releasing the seatbelt as a safety innovation for everybody, and you have to ask, what changed in the interim?
posted by The River Ivel at 8:20 AM on July 26, 2023 [3 favorites]
I mean, there's some guys who just love getting money from everybody else, who love fucking over people over for money. They end up as bankers or career criminals. But the guys who are making cars at the minute generally just love cars, and they think that everybody else loves cars too. The reason that they are enshitting their car infortainment system and controls is the general zeitgeist of the times. Compare this to Volvo releasing the seatbelt as a safety innovation for everybody, and you have to ask, what changed in the interim?
posted by The River Ivel at 8:20 AM on July 26, 2023 [3 favorites]
Cars are safer and more reliable than they used to be.No they're not. Pedestrian deaths are at their highest point in 40 years. Cars are only safer if you think the people outside them don't count.
posted by valrus at 8:34 AM on July 26, 2023 [17 favorites]
I will take this opportunity to point out something I learned recently: the word "entrepreneur" comes from French roots, "entre" and "prendre," literally "to seize from between."
Yea and no, the Latin roots of entrepreneur do not support that interpretation, nor does the actual usage over the years has.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 8:40 AM on July 26, 2023 [3 favorites]
Yea and no, the Latin roots of entrepreneur do not support that interpretation, nor does the actual usage over the years has.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 8:40 AM on July 26, 2023 [3 favorites]
The e-bike situation is really weird, we’re shopping for a cargo e-bike in the hope of replacing most car trips and since I learned that most bike shop won’t work on brands they don’t sell it’s changed from finding the bike we want to riding the bike/shop (or not too far away) we want, definitely reduces the options available, but I’d rather avoid having the learn to be a bike mechanic, looks fun but it’s not fun if you don’t have the tools/parts/time/knowledge.
Even e-bike are affected, Bosch sells their ebike motors with the alarm with a 1 year free service and the it’s a subscription. I understand cellular network data access has a price + the servers but that’s way too much.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 9:00 AM on July 26, 2023 [3 favorites]
Even e-bike are affected, Bosch sells their ebike motors with the alarm with a 1 year free service and the it’s a subscription. I understand cellular network data access has a price + the servers but that’s way too much.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 9:00 AM on July 26, 2023 [3 favorites]
"Hey why do we need Cory to coin several new terms that mean 'capitalism, but when I don't like it bc I personally feel the pain it has always been dealing by grinding poorer people into a pulp, but I didn't notice until it hit my life'."
Haha this sounds like gatekeeping for "noticing capitalism is bad." I'm good on that, I got nothing to gain from feelings of being first to that anticap party and all are welcome and encouraged to join.
posted by GoblinHoney at 10:06 AM on July 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
Haha this sounds like gatekeeping for "noticing capitalism is bad." I'm good on that, I got nothing to gain from feelings of being first to that anticap party and all are welcome and encouraged to join.
posted by GoblinHoney at 10:06 AM on July 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
I think it's worthwhile that he is coining new terms! Because as he notes in his article, this is emphatically not capitalism, but in fact a return to feudalism. It is rent-seeking behavior. He could just use "feudalism," but that'll fail to gain traction because it reminds people of life 500 year ago.
Also, whether or not you buy the argument, the defense of "capitalism" is that market forces will cause competitors to compete and improve their products. "Enshittification" encapsulates the reality that these rent-seeking behaviors result in not only skimming profit, but decreasing value to the consumer. Markedly different from the "capitalism victories" like cheaper/better products due to market efficiencies.
posted by explosion at 10:23 AM on July 26, 2023 [3 favorites]
Also, whether or not you buy the argument, the defense of "capitalism" is that market forces will cause competitors to compete and improve their products. "Enshittification" encapsulates the reality that these rent-seeking behaviors result in not only skimming profit, but decreasing value to the consumer. Markedly different from the "capitalism victories" like cheaper/better products due to market efficiencies.
posted by explosion at 10:23 AM on July 26, 2023 [3 favorites]
Specifically goods and services that seem solid offerings at firsts but get festooned with shit later on.
posted by Artw at 10:25 AM on July 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Artw at 10:25 AM on July 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
No they're not. Pedestrian deaths are at their highest point in 40 years. Cars are only safer if you think the people outside them don't count.
There are 4 factors, and IMO the other factors contribute far more than the design of cars, at least in the USA.
1) cars are more dangerous than the past - possible, the higher hoods and faster acceleration
2) roads are more dangerous: roads are designed to be more dangerous (with a level of service grade less than A if the traffic moves at anything below the maximum speed limit), sidewalks and pedestrian infrastructure much worse
3) there are more walkers than the past 50 years, which drives more interactions, with the advantage currently to drivers, since the walking experience has been either neglected or removed the past 50 years.
4) people are literally crazier now than they were in the past, with less care about the consequences of speeding and killing others.
I'd say #2 & #3 are far more impactful than the design of cars. #4 is IMO made up. The only thing about #4 is that #2 is so strong that driving in the US is basically a 'right', ie: you can injure, kill, and get umpteen tickets and still be able to do so if you can afford to do so in order to participate in life as a full member, and not a 2nd class citizen.
That's the fault of city planners and us in a general sense, not of designers of cars.
posted by The_Vegetables at 10:34 AM on July 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
There are 4 factors, and IMO the other factors contribute far more than the design of cars, at least in the USA.
1) cars are more dangerous than the past - possible, the higher hoods and faster acceleration
2) roads are more dangerous: roads are designed to be more dangerous (with a level of service grade less than A if the traffic moves at anything below the maximum speed limit), sidewalks and pedestrian infrastructure much worse
3) there are more walkers than the past 50 years, which drives more interactions, with the advantage currently to drivers, since the walking experience has been either neglected or removed the past 50 years.
4) people are literally crazier now than they were in the past, with less care about the consequences of speeding and killing others.
I'd say #2 & #3 are far more impactful than the design of cars. #4 is IMO made up. The only thing about #4 is that #2 is so strong that driving in the US is basically a 'right', ie: you can injure, kill, and get umpteen tickets and still be able to do so if you can afford to do so in order to participate in life as a full member, and not a 2nd class citizen.
That's the fault of city planners and us in a general sense, not of designers of cars.
posted by The_Vegetables at 10:34 AM on July 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
"Enshittification" encapsulates the reality that these rent-seeking behaviors result in not only skimming profit, but decreasing value to the consumer.
The median age of a car on the road in the US is 13 years old, so only a few cars mentioned in this thread are on the south side of the median. So if you don't want modern features on your car, ones without them are very easy to come by. Most people don't though, because 13+ year old cars are not better in any way in most people's eyes. So cars are not becoming 'enshitified', they are becoming serious luxury items only a few at the top of the economic pyramid can even afford.
posted by The_Vegetables at 10:42 AM on July 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
The median age of a car on the road in the US is 13 years old, so only a few cars mentioned in this thread are on the south side of the median. So if you don't want modern features on your car, ones without them are very easy to come by. Most people don't though, because 13+ year old cars are not better in any way in most people's eyes. So cars are not becoming 'enshitified', they are becoming serious luxury items only a few at the top of the economic pyramid can even afford.
posted by The_Vegetables at 10:42 AM on July 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
Also, the 'software upgrades' mentioned for Mercedes (and most of them for BMW, other than the heated seats) were always things you either had to hack or pay for a higher-optioned model for in the past. In the past though, they would just leave off the button or some other inexpensive piece of equipment (like the backup camera on my 2012 Honda, only available on more expensive models), even though the dash screen supports it, holes are drilled into the body, etc.
posted by The_Vegetables at 10:52 AM on July 26, 2023
posted by The_Vegetables at 10:52 AM on July 26, 2023
Back in 70’s, I took the only computer course I ever had, FORTRAN at an East Bay community college. They had an IBM 360 system. After a 10 minute lesson from the computer operator I started keypunching my code. I then would walk into the room with the computer, wake up the operator, who would run my deck of cards, I would get a print out. No waiting. One day, a guy in a suit was in the computer room. He was an IBM service guy. Back in the day, you rented all the equipment. He was there to fix a line printer. He told me the secret to IBM equipment. The line printer came in various models all based on speed. Slower meant cheaper. If you wanted faster, you had to make a service call, $$$, and then your rent charge went up, as you had a better model of printer. The secret was that there really weren’t different models of the printer. The IBM guy said that it was a simple gear change and the service reps were told to do it slowly to make it look like a lot of effort. He said this was true with a lot of IBM devices. You already had the top of the line device, upgrades were simple adjustments. Today, this humbug is encapsulated into devices, like cars. Hooray for computers!
posted by njohnson23 at 11:14 AM on July 26, 2023 [13 favorites]
posted by njohnson23 at 11:14 AM on July 26, 2023 [13 favorites]
> I definitely feel like a car company that made a back-to-basics vehicle with fewer electronic
> moving pieces to appeal to a DIY audience might actually have a market. It won’t happen, because profit
Yep. I desperately miss my old Peugeot 404, destroyed by a drunk driver a few decades ago.
It had everything I need for transportation.
posted by hank at 11:18 AM on July 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
> moving pieces to appeal to a DIY audience might actually have a market. It won’t happen, because profit
Yep. I desperately miss my old Peugeot 404, destroyed by a drunk driver a few decades ago.
It had everything I need for transportation.
posted by hank at 11:18 AM on July 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
I just bought out the lease on my 2019 VW All Track. It's pretty slim on features and I really didn't want to give up my stick shift station wagon. My parents both have new luxury cars and aside from the gas, break and steering wheel they're too complicated to bother learning how to operate.
posted by slogger at 11:35 AM on July 26, 2023
posted by slogger at 11:35 AM on July 26, 2023
What are the latest-model cars that don't have touchscreens, built-in cameras, GPS tracking? Or what current models are available that don't have these things? For those of us whose older cars might not last much longer...
posted by umber vowel at 11:38 AM on July 26, 2023
posted by umber vowel at 11:38 AM on July 26, 2023
They've captured healthy sleep and turned it into a source of rent.
They want to do this for everything. Literally everything.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 3:55 PM on July 26, 2023 [3 favorites]
They want to do this for everything. Literally everything.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 3:55 PM on July 26, 2023 [3 favorites]
There's always been someone hoping they could convince us we can't survive without paying them money
posted by rebent at 5:09 PM on July 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by rebent at 5:09 PM on July 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
In the US, backup cameras became federally required on all passenger cars in 2018, although by then they were pretty common by 2014, except on very base trims and very high performance cars
They were originally mandated to be in every car by 2012, but the US federal government is pretty gentle about missing mandates in the automotive world.
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:47 AM on July 27, 2023
They were originally mandated to be in every car by 2012, but the US federal government is pretty gentle about missing mandates in the automotive world.
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:47 AM on July 27, 2023
One of the first times I used an ebike, we cycled up a mountain in Austria, and when I cycled past one walker at the top, he spouted "electro!" and spat on the floor.
I'm going to adopt that. I'm irritated and scared by these motor bikes whizzing by me at high speed on trails and sidewalks.
posted by fairmettle at 6:30 AM on July 28, 2023
I'm going to adopt that. I'm irritated and scared by these motor bikes whizzing by me at high speed on trails and sidewalks.
posted by fairmettle at 6:30 AM on July 28, 2023
In the US, backup cameras became federally required on all passenger cars in 2018... With that, every car had to have a screen mid dash or in the rear view mirror assembly.
Enscreenification.
It's a parallel process and important contributor to enshitification that infects a lot more than just cars.
posted by fairmettle at 8:42 PM on July 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
Enscreenification.
It's a parallel process and important contributor to enshitification that infects a lot more than just cars.
posted by fairmettle at 8:42 PM on July 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
To the folks saying an electric car won’t work for you, why do you think that? I have a Nissan Leaf, plugged into a 110v plug and it works fine for 99.9% of the driving my wife and I do. The range is “only” ~200 miles. After driving it for a year I realized that the amount I’d driving (and distance) was much less than I had thought. Longer trips, sure, gotta make plans, but even then it’s a minor hassle.
posted by ckoerner at 11:07 AM on July 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by ckoerner at 11:07 AM on July 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
That describes a lot of Cory Doctorow's writing.
I've learned thru hard experience not to repost any of the claims he makes without fact checking them first.
Everything he says comes with a link as a source and citation with it.
Yours doesn't.
[citation needed]
posted by Pyrogenesis at 12:12 PM on July 30, 2023
I've learned thru hard experience not to repost any of the claims he makes without fact checking them first.
Everything he says comes with a link as a source and citation with it.
Yours doesn't.
[citation needed]
posted by Pyrogenesis at 12:12 PM on July 30, 2023
To the folks saying an electric car won’t work for you, why do you think that?
I could make a current generation electric car work if I had to, but it would be an inconvenience. Probably at least 95% of my driving is highway, along with some stretches of bad Forest Service-type roads. Like, the other week I drove almost 1500 miles in two days, plus half a day on ranch roads -- increasing every fill-up to a half-hour, and not necessarily having stations everywhere it would be needed, would add a lot of time and trouble to the trip. Not undoable, but not great either. And, the list of electric vehicles that offer enough ground clearance is pretty short.
If my driving was mostly local, with an occasional long trip, an electric car would be a slam dunk and I would already own one. It helps that I own my house and have an electrical panel that could support a charger, so as soon as electrical cars advance a bit more, I'll be all over that.
Frankly, I agree with your main point. Lots of people who are buying gas cars right now should be buying either plug-in hybrids or fully electric cars. It's the right technology for how most people are actually driving, day in and day out.
posted by Dip Flash at 12:15 PM on July 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
I could make a current generation electric car work if I had to, but it would be an inconvenience. Probably at least 95% of my driving is highway, along with some stretches of bad Forest Service-type roads. Like, the other week I drove almost 1500 miles in two days, plus half a day on ranch roads -- increasing every fill-up to a half-hour, and not necessarily having stations everywhere it would be needed, would add a lot of time and trouble to the trip. Not undoable, but not great either. And, the list of electric vehicles that offer enough ground clearance is pretty short.
If my driving was mostly local, with an occasional long trip, an electric car would be a slam dunk and I would already own one. It helps that I own my house and have an electrical panel that could support a charger, so as soon as electrical cars advance a bit more, I'll be all over that.
Frankly, I agree with your main point. Lots of people who are buying gas cars right now should be buying either plug-in hybrids or fully electric cars. It's the right technology for how most people are actually driving, day in and day out.
posted by Dip Flash at 12:15 PM on July 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
Most of the people I know who have bought a gas car recently did so because they don't have a place at home to charge an electric. Apartments and condos may offer a couple of charging stations, but you have to park your car and then wait for it to charge and then go move it again. And you're paying jacked up rates for the electricity, as well, because those chargers are often offered by third party providers who have to make a profit.
posted by jacquilynne at 1:09 PM on July 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by jacquilynne at 1:09 PM on July 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
I've learned thru hard experience not to repost any of the claims he makes without fact checking them first.
Everything he says comes with a link as a source and citation with it.
Yours doesn't.
[citation needed]
That's because I'm recounting my experience, not making sweeping factual claims about the world.
Yes, he offers a blizzard of links. Anybody can embed a hyperlink in an article. That doesn't mean that all the linked sources say exactly what an author claims or implies they say.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 3:01 PM on August 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
Everything he says comes with a link as a source and citation with it.
Yours doesn't.
[citation needed]
That's because I'm recounting my experience, not making sweeping factual claims about the world.
Yes, he offers a blizzard of links. Anybody can embed a hyperlink in an article. That doesn't mean that all the linked sources say exactly what an author claims or implies they say.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 3:01 PM on August 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
In the US, backup cameras became federally required on all passenger cars in 2018... With that, every car had to have a screen mid dash or in the rear view mirror assembly.
Enscreenification.
It's a parallel process and important contributor to enshitification that infects a lot more than just cars.
I love backup cameras, and am extremely glad they're required on new cars. As car designs have changed to have higher back ends, they're increasingly necessary.
And higher back ends on cars are not "enshittification", they're a consequence of designing for lower drag in order to meet ever-higher fuel economy standards.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 3:03 PM on August 1, 2023
Enscreenification.
It's a parallel process and important contributor to enshitification that infects a lot more than just cars.
I love backup cameras, and am extremely glad they're required on new cars. As car designs have changed to have higher back ends, they're increasingly necessary.
And higher back ends on cars are not "enshittification", they're a consequence of designing for lower drag in order to meet ever-higher fuel economy standards.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 3:03 PM on August 1, 2023
Well yes, but also the move to SUVs from sedans. A car you can look down on the roof of doesn't have anywhere near the rear blind spot of a SUV even if you go full wagon and extend the roofline to the rear bumper.
Factory trucks that you can't even look down on the fricken hood of let alone the roof of are even worse on top of being absurdly wide for something that still only fits 4' between the cargo wheel wells.
posted by Mitheral at 7:52 PM on August 2, 2023
Factory trucks that you can't even look down on the fricken hood of let alone the roof of are even worse on top of being absurdly wide for something that still only fits 4' between the cargo wheel wells.
posted by Mitheral at 7:52 PM on August 2, 2023
Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features worth up to $15,000
(Though I’d note FSD is the big one, and arguable that one just shouldn’t exist)
posted by Artw at 6:08 AM on August 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
(Though I’d note FSD is the big one, and arguable that one just shouldn’t exist)
posted by Artw at 6:08 AM on August 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
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posted by genpfault at 4:38 PM on July 25, 2023 [18 favorites]