The Power of Provocative Copywriting
July 29, 2023 4:30 AM Subscribe
Throughout our conversations over the past year, Runner maintained that neither he nor his businesses ever crossed a legal line. Many people, his attitude projected, want to believe in something magical—be it the power of a weight-loss drug or the power of a psychic. And inherent in that belief is a measure of accepted deceit. If that wasn’t the case, Runner insisted, people would have asked for their money back. from The Greatest Scam Ever Written
Wow. Quite a read. I am always baffled that people can be so gullible and...believing?
posted by davidmsc at 7:31 AM on July 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by davidmsc at 7:31 AM on July 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
A quote from the prosecutor:
We may think other people are foolish for what they believe. That’s okay. That’s not a crime. What’s not okay is taking advantage of people because of what they believe. What’s not okay is lying to them because you think they’re a fool. And it is criminal, it is a crime when you lie to them about their beliefs and take their moneySo...where does that leave
- crypto advertising?
- televangelists? (one vacuumed up quite a bit of cash from my unmarried great aunt)
- Trump fundraising?
There's not as many as there used to be. But here in Chicago, on the outskirts of gentrified neighborhoods, you can still find those "Psychic Advisor" shops. Some look as though they've been there since the 1970s or even earlier — little businesses set in the front of tired old residential buildings — with neon signs advertising healing, spiritual advice, fortune telling. I don't understand it, but there's many aspects of humanity that I don't understand. It fills a niche that churches, mosques, temples and cults fill for some — is my guess. It's been a business one way or another since the beginning. Some are far more scammy (and even physically and emotionally dangerous) than others.
posted by SoberHighland at 7:58 AM on July 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by SoberHighland at 7:58 AM on July 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
churches, mosques, temples and cults
And therapists, I think.
posted by clew at 8:00 AM on July 29, 2023 [12 favorites]
And therapists, I think.
posted by clew at 8:00 AM on July 29, 2023 [12 favorites]
Therapists.
True! Hell, Capitalism has now created online therapy sessions with... 'therapists' that can help you sort things out via PayPal while legally harvesting and selling all your information and details and deepest secrets.
Some of this stuff is genuinely helpful, though. That's what I think. As soon as big sums of money starts changing hands over it though?
posted by SoberHighland at 8:07 AM on July 29, 2023 [7 favorites]
True! Hell, Capitalism has now created online therapy sessions with... 'therapists' that can help you sort things out via PayPal while legally harvesting and selling all your information and details and deepest secrets.
Some of this stuff is genuinely helpful, though. That's what I think. As soon as big sums of money starts changing hands over it though?
posted by SoberHighland at 8:07 AM on July 29, 2023 [7 favorites]
The defense’s idea that the customers were engaging, deep down, in a kind of willful self-deceit is so interesting. How do you ever pin down the blurry line between this and true belief? Because it can be both. How is this different from religious faith?
posted by gottabefunky at 9:28 AM on July 29, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by gottabefunky at 9:28 AM on July 29, 2023 [5 favorites]
Yeah, I'm really struggling to understand why this guy was prosecuted, but Dionne Warwick wasn't. Or for that matter why his weight loss scam was prosecuted but Lean Cuisine (and the entire rest of the weight loss industry that also doesn't work) still exists. There are an awful lot of people getting rich off of "dietary supplements" that they know don't do anything, too.
posted by hydropsyche at 9:35 AM on July 29, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by hydropsyche at 9:35 AM on July 29, 2023 [7 favorites]
Dionne Warwick didn't claim to be a psychic she was just a spokesperson for the Psychic Friends Network. She did it for the paycheck. She said she didn't even particularly believe in it.
posted by Liquidwolf at 11:20 AM on July 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Liquidwolf at 11:20 AM on July 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
It seems like the line between deception and fraud, while legally a bit murky, comes down to how blatant it is.
How is this different from religious faith?
I mean, when a person tithes, they aren't paying because the priest says this will guarantee them a spot in heaven, they tithe to support the operation of the church, which they benefit from (community, a place to go once a week, the sermon/choir, etc.)
crypto advertising?
Well, obviously some people in crypto have fallen foul of the law. But anyway, the crypto advertising I've seen if pretty clear that it's not making any hard and fast guarantees - it promises to sell you coins, which it does indeed do.
Trump fundraising?
Trump & Co. did refund many of those tricked into automatic payments, if that's what you mean. And obviously he has gotten in trouble for using campaign money to pay off Daniels - otherwise, convincing people he's an underdog who is being attacked by the deep state would seem to fall under deception, as long as he does use it to fund his campaign.
Or for that matter why his weight loss scam was prosecuted but Lean Cuisine (and the entire rest of the weight loss industry that also doesn't work) still exists.
Because he was claiming his magic solution, which was just a basic diuretic, would make you lose 40lbs in a month, which was totally baseless. Lean Cuisine just promises portion control, which it technical does, and there are medical studies that show portion control can help a certain percentage of people lose weight. As the article gets into though, he is not the only one to get into trouble for his weight loss "solution":
At the time, Waldman happened to be a lawyer with the US Federal Trade Commission, which enforces anti-trust law and upholds consumer protection. As part of the FTC’s Operation Waistline, he had been tasked with investigating companies making dubious weight-loss claims
posted by coffeecat at 11:46 AM on July 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
How is this different from religious faith?
I mean, when a person tithes, they aren't paying because the priest says this will guarantee them a spot in heaven, they tithe to support the operation of the church, which they benefit from (community, a place to go once a week, the sermon/choir, etc.)
crypto advertising?
Well, obviously some people in crypto have fallen foul of the law. But anyway, the crypto advertising I've seen if pretty clear that it's not making any hard and fast guarantees - it promises to sell you coins, which it does indeed do.
Trump fundraising?
Trump & Co. did refund many of those tricked into automatic payments, if that's what you mean. And obviously he has gotten in trouble for using campaign money to pay off Daniels - otherwise, convincing people he's an underdog who is being attacked by the deep state would seem to fall under deception, as long as he does use it to fund his campaign.
Or for that matter why his weight loss scam was prosecuted but Lean Cuisine (and the entire rest of the weight loss industry that also doesn't work) still exists.
Because he was claiming his magic solution, which was just a basic diuretic, would make you lose 40lbs in a month, which was totally baseless. Lean Cuisine just promises portion control, which it technical does, and there are medical studies that show portion control can help a certain percentage of people lose weight. As the article gets into though, he is not the only one to get into trouble for his weight loss "solution":
At the time, Waldman happened to be a lawyer with the US Federal Trade Commission, which enforces anti-trust law and upholds consumer protection. As part of the FTC’s Operation Waistline, he had been tasked with investigating companies making dubious weight-loss claims
posted by coffeecat at 11:46 AM on July 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
Tithing - there's a difference between being a member of a congregation, and being a remote donor to a televangelist, who, like the "scam" psychic, often promises intangibles like "we'll pray for you" and also sends out geegaws and talismans. And then solicits more contributions.
Some might respond: "but the televangelist sincerely believes...", to which I'd answer - isn't it possible that a psychic (or their retinue) also believes?
Crypto - if you're running superbowl ads with superstar spokespeople, you're certainly doing more than just advertising some "coins" to those who would want them. Can you say "pump and dump"?
Trump fundraising - yes I'm being coy here; it's not materially different from any US political fundraising. Except maybe for the fact that much is going towards his legal defense fund, rather than to actual campaign costs. Oh, and maybe the sheer volume of lies that the appeals are based upon.
To repeat the prosecutor's money-quote:
What’s not okay is lying to them because you think they’re a fool. And it is criminal, it is a crime when you lie to them about their beliefs and take their money
What's sauce for the goose...
posted by Artful Codger at 12:49 PM on July 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
Some might respond: "but the televangelist sincerely believes...", to which I'd answer - isn't it possible that a psychic (or their retinue) also believes?
Crypto - if you're running superbowl ads with superstar spokespeople, you're certainly doing more than just advertising some "coins" to those who would want them. Can you say "pump and dump"?
Trump fundraising - yes I'm being coy here; it's not materially different from any US political fundraising. Except maybe for the fact that much is going towards his legal defense fund, rather than to actual campaign costs. Oh, and maybe the sheer volume of lies that the appeals are based upon.
To repeat the prosecutor's money-quote:
What’s not okay is lying to them because you think they’re a fool. And it is criminal, it is a crime when you lie to them about their beliefs and take their money
What's sauce for the goose...
posted by Artful Codger at 12:49 PM on July 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
For a very brief time I was the IT guy for a mail order business. Their operation consisted of tiny offices in a building where the owners provided phones, IT services 🙂, printing and advertising copy.
The people who rented the offices bought mailing lists from the company and then sent out hundreds of letters to the people on the lists.
I don't remember exactly how it worked, but it was something like - there were hundreds of sweepstakes that went unclaimed each month in which you were a backup winner and if you paid $5 a month you would be informed of these unclaimed prizes.
So the advertising copy was along the lines of - "You have won $100,000!"
I left after overhearing a woman yelling at one of the mailers that they had cheated her addled (uncle, father, grandfather) out of hundreds of dollars.
posted by mmrtnt at 3:03 PM on July 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
The people who rented the offices bought mailing lists from the company and then sent out hundreds of letters to the people on the lists.
I don't remember exactly how it worked, but it was something like - there were hundreds of sweepstakes that went unclaimed each month in which you were a backup winner and if you paid $5 a month you would be informed of these unclaimed prizes.
So the advertising copy was along the lines of - "You have won $100,000!"
I left after overhearing a woman yelling at one of the mailers that they had cheated her addled (uncle, father, grandfather) out of hundreds of dollars.
posted by mmrtnt at 3:03 PM on July 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
The details here explain why Runner was liable in way other, similar, practices aren't (legally speaking).
Runner was selling goods and services.
Churches, and similar groups, usually ask for donations and offer a good (e.g. a cross) as a thank you. Since they aren't selling you the cross they aren't liable for any claims made about the cross (or crystal or whatever). Runner was actually selling the crystals (and diet supplements, etc.) and lying about their provenance and characteristics.
In the case of the services, it seems that the main point is that he was promising individualized services. Each person believed they were purchasing information that was created via a unique means and uniquely for them. Of course, that was also a lie as they either got mass-produced, "fake" lottery numbers or their hair, letters, etc. were simply discarded. The psychic friends network actually put you on the phone with a person who provided a reading. They delivered what they advertised, Runner didn't.
Also, any remotely sophisticated operation will load their pitch with all sorts of disclaimers not guaranteeing results (e.g. Weight Watchers).
I've even noticed betting hotlines issuing disclaimers that they are intended "only for entertainment purposes." I suspect that would have helped Runners defense, if he'd done that, too.
posted by oddman at 6:27 PM on July 29, 2023 [5 favorites]
Runner was selling goods and services.
Churches, and similar groups, usually ask for donations and offer a good (e.g. a cross) as a thank you. Since they aren't selling you the cross they aren't liable for any claims made about the cross (or crystal or whatever). Runner was actually selling the crystals (and diet supplements, etc.) and lying about their provenance and characteristics.
In the case of the services, it seems that the main point is that he was promising individualized services. Each person believed they were purchasing information that was created via a unique means and uniquely for them. Of course, that was also a lie as they either got mass-produced, "fake" lottery numbers or their hair, letters, etc. were simply discarded. The psychic friends network actually put you on the phone with a person who provided a reading. They delivered what they advertised, Runner didn't.
Also, any remotely sophisticated operation will load their pitch with all sorts of disclaimers not guaranteeing results (e.g. Weight Watchers).
I've even noticed betting hotlines issuing disclaimers that they are intended "only for entertainment purposes." I suspect that would have helped Runners defense, if he'd done that, too.
posted by oddman at 6:27 PM on July 29, 2023 [5 favorites]
From the article:
“We pay a magician to experience magic. He is not defrauding us out of our money when he lies about the magic. Deception, yes. Fraud, no. Yes, he intends to deceive us, to trick us, and he intends to take our money, definitely, but he doesn’t intend to defraud us, to harm us by doing that. Or we pay Disney to experience their magic. They’re not defrauding us when they pretend that Mickey is real. Deception, yeah. But fraud, no. Or maybe we pay for WWE tickets or healing crystals or dream catchers or Ouija boards, or maybe we’re one of the millions of Americans who pay for astrology. In all of that, there can be deception, sure. But we’re not harmed by it. Our payment isn’t loss. It’s not injury. Why? Because we got the experience that we paid for; we got that magic show; we got that fake WWE match; we got that healing crystal that probably doesn’t heal; and we got that astrology. “
posted by beesbees at 2:27 AM on July 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
“We pay a magician to experience magic. He is not defrauding us out of our money when he lies about the magic. Deception, yes. Fraud, no. Yes, he intends to deceive us, to trick us, and he intends to take our money, definitely, but he doesn’t intend to defraud us, to harm us by doing that. Or we pay Disney to experience their magic. They’re not defrauding us when they pretend that Mickey is real. Deception, yeah. But fraud, no. Or maybe we pay for WWE tickets or healing crystals or dream catchers or Ouija boards, or maybe we’re one of the millions of Americans who pay for astrology. In all of that, there can be deception, sure. But we’re not harmed by it. Our payment isn’t loss. It’s not injury. Why? Because we got the experience that we paid for; we got that magic show; we got that fake WWE match; we got that healing crystal that probably doesn’t heal; and we got that astrology. “
posted by beesbees at 2:27 AM on July 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
From the article
The article is quoting Runner’s defense attorney. In the next section, it quotes from the prosecution:
The article is quoting Runner’s defense attorney. In the next section, it quotes from the prosecution:
“We all have beliefs,” lawyer Charles Dunn told the jury. “You may think my beliefs are crazy. I could have the same opinion about your beliefs. We may think other people are foolish for what they believe. That’s okay. That’s not a crime. What’s not okay is taking advantage of people because of what they believe. What’s not okay is lying to them because you think they’re a fool. And it is criminal, it is a crime when you lie to them about their beliefs and take their money.” Dunn rebuffed the notion that Runner and his business were offering entertainment: “What Patrice Runner offered was fake spirituality. . . . He took advantage of people’s spiritual beliefs, and he lied to them, and he took their money.”posted by zamboni at 1:35 PM on July 30, 2023
After nearly a week of trial, the jury agreed, convicting Patrice Runner on eight counts of mail fraud, four counts of wire fraud, conspiracy to commit mail and wire fraud, and conspiracy to commit money laundering. He was found not guilty on four counts of mail fraud. He faces a sentence of up to twenty years in prison on each of the fourteen counts.
Some of this stuff is genuinely helpful, though. That's what I think. As soon as big sums of money starts changing hands over it though?
This is the quandary I found myself in while reading the article. There's a component of the psychic scam that potentially does some good - gives people hope that had none and maybe even encourages them to keep trying. There's definitely a bit of 'we all know what's really going on here', as per the lawyer's argument about magic etc. He was only taking $50 from individuals (which is, yes, a lot of money for many people) and just maybe giving them a little hope in return? I feel like what caught him out was that he didn't get lawyers involved in making sure he was only skirting the legal line, not actually putting a toe over it.
There are so many people that use deception and deceit to literally clean people out of their entire life savings and their future (yes, perhaps giving some hope in the short term before tearing it all away) and I wish more of them got caught or, preferably, were prevented from doing harm. Someone who takes $50 from someone and moves on is not even in the same realm of concern for me. It seems clear he broke the law, but I hope any sentence falls well short of the maximum.
posted by dg at 5:49 PM on July 30, 2023
This is the quandary I found myself in while reading the article. There's a component of the psychic scam that potentially does some good - gives people hope that had none and maybe even encourages them to keep trying. There's definitely a bit of 'we all know what's really going on here', as per the lawyer's argument about magic etc. He was only taking $50 from individuals (which is, yes, a lot of money for many people) and just maybe giving them a little hope in return? I feel like what caught him out was that he didn't get lawyers involved in making sure he was only skirting the legal line, not actually putting a toe over it.
There are so many people that use deception and deceit to literally clean people out of their entire life savings and their future (yes, perhaps giving some hope in the short term before tearing it all away) and I wish more of them got caught or, preferably, were prevented from doing harm. Someone who takes $50 from someone and moves on is not even in the same realm of concern for me. It seems clear he broke the law, but I hope any sentence falls well short of the maximum.
posted by dg at 5:49 PM on July 30, 2023
The performance of a magic show is different from these other types of entertainment primarily because I know there is no actual magic involved and yet I can still fully enjoy being totally deceived. I am not a true believer in the 'Magic Kingdom' or the kayfabe of wrestling, so I know that I am not getting the full experience. And although my enjoyment of these always seems inferior to that of my friends who embrace it I can see how the shared experience is a major contributor to the the whole performance.
But once you reach physic readings and astrology I feel that the real value drops to nothing. It's just a vampire economy that feeds on the gullible and desperate.
posted by zenon at 7:24 PM on July 30, 2023
But once you reach physic readings and astrology I feel that the real value drops to nothing. It's just a vampire economy that feeds on the gullible and desperate.
posted by zenon at 7:24 PM on July 30, 2023
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posted by GenjiandProust at 6:32 AM on July 29, 2023 [7 favorites]