Perils of Not Being Attractive or Athletic in Middle School
August 10, 2023 11:26 PM Subscribe
friendships with well-adjusted agemates(What exactly does "well-adjusted" mean in youth-management talk? I know "adjustment disorder" which is about response to a stress or negative impact; is the idea that a well-adjusted low-status youth is harmed by their peers but doesn't drink to excess about it?)
posted by away for regrooving at 12:28 AM on August 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
I wish someone was doing this study every ten years. Are things getting better for the ugly and non-sporty kids? I thought Gen Alpha was supposed to be suuuuuper accepting and tolerant? Being biased against the unattractive and unfit is the one prejudice that's still acceptable?
posted by alby at 12:29 AM on August 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by alby at 12:29 AM on August 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
Being biased against the unattractive and unfit is the one prejudice that's still acceptable?
My experience says yes, though as an adult the latter takes the form of fatphobia rather than being linked to athletic performance.
(Except they aren't the only ones, sadly.)
posted by Dysk at 12:33 AM on August 11, 2023 [12 favorites]
My experience says yes, though as an adult the latter takes the form of fatphobia rather than being linked to athletic performance.
(Except they aren't the only ones, sadly.)
posted by Dysk at 12:33 AM on August 11, 2023 [12 favorites]
I feel like what the study shows is that middle-school aged children tend not to have yet learned which traits are helpful to value in an individual they know in person nor how to behave appropriately socially. This is perhaps understandable given that they have not finished developing, but parents, educators and others need to find strategies to teach them effectively and more quickly so that they do not impact on others in their cohort. Alternatively, given their developmental stage perhaps it is just not appropriate to group middle-school aged children in groups exclusively comprised of same-aged peers.
posted by plonkee at 12:33 AM on August 11, 2023 [18 favorites]
posted by plonkee at 12:33 AM on August 11, 2023 [18 favorites]
I’m confused about the inclusion of alcohol abuse in the study but the seeming absence of other forms of self harm. From personal experience I can say that from 10-13 the ways my peers hurt themselves and others was almost never through alcohol; much more likely were things like manual self harm, stolen prescription drug use, or use of any other accessible street drugs. Alcohol was too obvious and harder to steal. That’s probably changed since I was a small grubby nerd though, or maybe alcohol was just the easiest to quantify? Or to get funding if they included it?
10-13 were some of the unhappiest years of my life, but I still had a pod of super close friends and my home life was comparatively amazing. I never drank or did drugs but I did hurt myself in other ways. I feel like for some of us there is no avoiding the utter shit of middle school even if all the factors are there for success. Like, if I had come to my mom and complained about my peers being mean (which I did) and she had said “okay what if you got good at sports” or “time for a makeover montage” instead of “I’m so sorry, let’s talk about it and see what we can do” I would have screamed at her, slammed my door many times, and attended school in a burlap sack in protest.
posted by Mizu at 12:39 AM on August 11, 2023 [18 favorites]
10-13 were some of the unhappiest years of my life, but I still had a pod of super close friends and my home life was comparatively amazing. I never drank or did drugs but I did hurt myself in other ways. I feel like for some of us there is no avoiding the utter shit of middle school even if all the factors are there for success. Like, if I had come to my mom and complained about my peers being mean (which I did) and she had said “okay what if you got good at sports” or “time for a makeover montage” instead of “I’m so sorry, let’s talk about it and see what we can do” I would have screamed at her, slammed my door many times, and attended school in a burlap sack in protest.
posted by Mizu at 12:39 AM on August 11, 2023 [18 favorites]
Peer group? Way to blame that, look at the teachers and administrators first. K-12 has always been full of bullies, starting with the adults.
posted by yueliang at 1:15 AM on August 11, 2023 [34 favorites]
posted by yueliang at 1:15 AM on August 11, 2023 [34 favorites]
I am 100% certain that when conservatives hear about this they will start foaming at the mouth about this study being "woke".
See Robert Reich's post asking Is Trump a Fascist? This is where he specifically calls out bullying as a fundamental technique of fascist practice.
posted by Metacircular at 3:13 AM on August 11, 2023 [7 favorites]
See Robert Reich's post asking Is Trump a Fascist? This is where he specifically calls out bullying as a fundamental technique of fascist practice.
posted by Metacircular at 3:13 AM on August 11, 2023 [7 favorites]
Was this one of the new ground breaking stories from the medical journal Duh?
The quibbles about language are interesting but certainly reflect the norms of research papers, where you see an effect you want to remain open to what causes that, beyond your own experiences. I would imagine, similar to academic study on addiction and eating disorders, no one choose his topic or research without personal, first hand exposure to middle school trauma motivating their efforts.
posted by midmarch snowman at 3:40 AM on August 11, 2023 [11 favorites]
The quibbles about language are interesting but certainly reflect the norms of research papers, where you see an effect you want to remain open to what causes that, beyond your own experiences. I would imagine, similar to academic study on addiction and eating disorders, no one choose his topic or research without personal, first hand exposure to middle school trauma motivating their efforts.
posted by midmarch snowman at 3:40 AM on August 11, 2023 [11 favorites]
Gender egalitarianism, but not in a good way. Sports didn't used to be a path to popularity for girls, and I'm not sure about being good-looking for boys.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 3:47 AM on August 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 3:47 AM on August 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
Hi from an unattractive, athletic Gen-X girl who is still trying to decide if athleticism being a path to popularity for girls is a sign of progress. (Although I was a runner, which I don't think has ever been the path to popularity for boys that football and basketball are in the US)
posted by hydropsyche at 3:54 AM on August 11, 2023 [13 favorites]
posted by hydropsyche at 3:54 AM on August 11, 2023 [13 favorites]
Hi, short, fat, non-athletic weird-looking old guy here. It doesn't stop with middle school.
posted by briank at 4:30 AM on August 11, 2023 [29 favorites]
posted by briank at 4:30 AM on August 11, 2023 [29 favorites]
I have not yet followed the links to read the article - but I can only assume that the study has been published in The New England Journal of DUH!
[..and on reading the thread, I see that I have been preceded by midmarch snowman....Sorry.]
posted by AsYouKnow Bob at 4:34 AM on August 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
[..and on reading the thread, I see that I have been preceded by midmarch snowman....Sorry.]
posted by AsYouKnow Bob at 4:34 AM on August 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
I feel like this kind of article is going to push a lot of buttons for some people, particularly people who read a lot of metafilter. Even though this sort of thing goes back to the ancient Greeks, who thought that if a person was beautiful outside they’d be beautiful inside, it’s somehow news to people.
posted by The River Ivel at 4:50 AM on August 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by The River Ivel at 4:50 AM on August 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
For this Gen-Xer, middle school was the absolute worst time to be weird, fat, not into sports, and smarter than average classmates. (And that also coincided with the generally worst set of teachers I had.)
High school was a mixed bag but fellow weirdos banded together and were mostly ignored by the rest.
College and later, none of that shit mattered.
posted by Foosnark at 4:51 AM on August 11, 2023 [26 favorites]
High school was a mixed bag but fellow weirdos banded together and were mostly ignored by the rest.
College and later, none of that shit mattered.
posted by Foosnark at 4:51 AM on August 11, 2023 [26 favorites]
In high school I had what I thought of as a diverse, tolerant friend group. After we graduated, it was decided that their preferred get-together was a weekly soccer game.
My physical disability—a pelvic deformity with a bad hip—meant I was unable to participate. It shocked me—it still does decades later—how quickly my “friends” stopped including me in anything at all. It was okay to be LGBTQ or neurodiverse, but nonathletic? That was a bridge too far.
posted by kinnakeet at 5:44 AM on August 11, 2023 [9 favorites]
My physical disability—a pelvic deformity with a bad hip—meant I was unable to participate. It shocked me—it still does decades later—how quickly my “friends” stopped including me in anything at all. It was okay to be LGBTQ or neurodiverse, but nonathletic? That was a bridge too far.
posted by kinnakeet at 5:44 AM on August 11, 2023 [9 favorites]
You can't just be athletic,you have to be on a team. Unless that's changed.
posted by subdee at 5:52 AM on August 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by subdee at 5:52 AM on August 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
’m confused about the inclusion of alcohol abuse in the study but the seeming absence of other forms of self harm. From personal experience I can say that from 10-13 the ways my peers hurt themselves and others was almost never through alcohol; much more likely were things like manual self harm, stolen prescription drug use, or use of any other accessible street drugs. Alcohol was too obvious and harder to steal. That’s probably changed since I was a small grubby nerd though, or maybe alcohol was just the easiest to quantify? Or to get funding if they included it?
I didn't start my path to eventual alcohol abuse until I was 15, but yeah from what I can understand from my sister raising her two kids (13 & 15), alcohol seems to be more easily accessible by tweens than I was their age. My sister found a bunch of airplane bottles of booze in her oldest's room when she was 13. And my sister's kid is one of the popular ones (much like her mother).
posted by Kitteh at 5:55 AM on August 11, 2023
I didn't start my path to eventual alcohol abuse until I was 15, but yeah from what I can understand from my sister raising her two kids (13 & 15), alcohol seems to be more easily accessible by tweens than I was their age. My sister found a bunch of airplane bottles of booze in her oldest's room when she was 13. And my sister's kid is one of the popular ones (much like her mother).
posted by Kitteh at 5:55 AM on August 11, 2023
“Participants were public middle school students (ages 10 to 13 years, Mage = 11.54, SDage = 1.00) in the USA and Lithuania (300 girls, 280 boys; 52.7% girls). Self-reports of alcohol misuse and loneliness were collected three times during an academic year (M = 12.3 week intervals).” From the study.
Is it easier for kids to get booze in Lithuania?
posted by Ideefixe at 6:03 AM on August 11, 2023
Is it easier for kids to get booze in Lithuania?
posted by Ideefixe at 6:03 AM on August 11, 2023
still trying to decide if athleticism being a path to popularity for girls is a sign of progress
My middle school years were in the mid to late 70s in the midwest, and I can vouch that the popular girls were generally more athletic than the rest of us (and also generally more attractive.)
There weren't a lot of organized sports for girls back then so it wasn't necessarily that athletic girls were popular on account of being MVPs on school sports teams like popular boys often are, other than volleyball, softball and cheerleading. But they did tend to be valued by other children for being athletic enough to be successful in gym class, being good at dodgeball & kickball, rope climbing, flips on the trampoline, etc. When picking teams, of course the most athletic guys were chosen first but then the most attractive athletic girls were next.
And then there was playground stuff like swinging hand-by-hand across the monkey bars and doing cartwheels. Being able to perform tricks was greatly admired by other girls and got you a higher spot in the pecking order. There's a guy called Leigh McNasty who makes funny video skits portraying young children arguing. One of his bits is that when little girls argue, the winner will then perform a "cartwheel to assert dominance" and it is one of the truest things I remember from my childhood. My best-friend-turned-nemesis used to pull this move ALL the time.
Being strong, assertive and well-coordinated enough to physically fight well was also a pretty necessary skill for maintaining one's top spot in the hierarchy. Girls are said to be emotionally and socially vicious to one another as their main form of bullying, but many of the popular girl bullies I remember could and would kick your ass if it came down to it.
posted by Serene Empress Dork at 6:17 AM on August 11, 2023 [7 favorites]
My middle school years were in the mid to late 70s in the midwest, and I can vouch that the popular girls were generally more athletic than the rest of us (and also generally more attractive.)
There weren't a lot of organized sports for girls back then so it wasn't necessarily that athletic girls were popular on account of being MVPs on school sports teams like popular boys often are, other than volleyball, softball and cheerleading. But they did tend to be valued by other children for being athletic enough to be successful in gym class, being good at dodgeball & kickball, rope climbing, flips on the trampoline, etc. When picking teams, of course the most athletic guys were chosen first but then the most attractive athletic girls were next.
And then there was playground stuff like swinging hand-by-hand across the monkey bars and doing cartwheels. Being able to perform tricks was greatly admired by other girls and got you a higher spot in the pecking order. There's a guy called Leigh McNasty who makes funny video skits portraying young children arguing. One of his bits is that when little girls argue, the winner will then perform a "cartwheel to assert dominance" and it is one of the truest things I remember from my childhood. My best-friend-turned-nemesis used to pull this move ALL the time.
Being strong, assertive and well-coordinated enough to physically fight well was also a pretty necessary skill for maintaining one's top spot in the hierarchy. Girls are said to be emotionally and socially vicious to one another as their main form of bullying, but many of the popular girl bullies I remember could and would kick your ass if it came down to it.
posted by Serene Empress Dork at 6:17 AM on August 11, 2023 [7 favorites]
I eagerly await the followup study, where these kids were all told "Don't worry about being unpopular now, just stay in school and you'll come out ahead in the long run", only to find that that's another lie.
posted by Capt. Renault at 6:42 AM on August 11, 2023 [22 favorites]
posted by Capt. Renault at 6:42 AM on August 11, 2023 [22 favorites]
These kids need a healthy subculture to join.
posted by matjus at 6:42 AM on August 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by matjus at 6:42 AM on August 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
I didn't start my path to eventual alcohol abuse until I was 15, but yeah from what I can understand from my sister raising her two kids (13 & 15), alcohol seems to be more easily accessible by tweens than I was their age. My sister found a bunch of airplane bottles of booze in her oldest's room when she was 13. And my sister's kid is one of the popular ones (much like her mother).
I don't know how it is now, but when I was that age, as a Gen X person, a number of the popular kids had parents who openly provided alcohol. Not like "we stole these beers from dad's fridge" -- this was straight up buying alcohol for the kids' parties or for the kids to take to events. It was all part of the mix of which groups were "cool" and who got to be in those groups. That was in addition to people having older siblings who would purchase alcohol, and the 13-14 year old school girls with boyfriends in the military who would purchase as well.
I didn't run in those circles; we had to stand outside of the 7-11 and approach rough-looking dudes walking in to buy for us. We never had to ask more than two of them to find someone willing to buy in exchange for $5.
I wish someone was doing this study every ten years. Are things getting better for the ugly and non-sporty kids? I thought Gen Alpha was supposed to be suuuuuper accepting and tolerant? Being biased against the unattractive and unfit is the one prejudice that's still acceptable?
I don't have kids, but I have coworkers with kids so I hear things second hand. At least at some schools, things are clearly way, way better than when I was in school. Like, unimaginably better. But then I hear stories from other parents that sound word for word exactly like what I saw back then.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:52 AM on August 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
I don't know how it is now, but when I was that age, as a Gen X person, a number of the popular kids had parents who openly provided alcohol. Not like "we stole these beers from dad's fridge" -- this was straight up buying alcohol for the kids' parties or for the kids to take to events. It was all part of the mix of which groups were "cool" and who got to be in those groups. That was in addition to people having older siblings who would purchase alcohol, and the 13-14 year old school girls with boyfriends in the military who would purchase as well.
I didn't run in those circles; we had to stand outside of the 7-11 and approach rough-looking dudes walking in to buy for us. We never had to ask more than two of them to find someone willing to buy in exchange for $5.
I wish someone was doing this study every ten years. Are things getting better for the ugly and non-sporty kids? I thought Gen Alpha was supposed to be suuuuuper accepting and tolerant? Being biased against the unattractive and unfit is the one prejudice that's still acceptable?
I don't have kids, but I have coworkers with kids so I hear things second hand. At least at some schools, things are clearly way, way better than when I was in school. Like, unimaginably better. But then I hear stories from other parents that sound word for word exactly like what I saw back then.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:52 AM on August 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
Nonathletic, check. Not conventionally attractive, check. Preferred reading to sports at the best of times, check. Bad at playing the social games, check.
Mentally unhealthy, check.
Not considered sufficiently "manly", double check.
Sent to a therapist when they thought it was just basic depression? Check.
Miserable? A check the size of Montana.
Said therapist, I found out, was a member of NARTH, which probably explains why I never felt right for years until I came out as trans, which probably would have gotten me daily beatings bloody with no sympathy from anyone in high school in the 1980s, and no sympathy at home, and then I probably would have left there one way or another (either running away or my own personally fitted body bag). The fact I survived may count as its own small miracle.
The fact any people like me survive is its own miracle.
posted by mephron at 6:57 AM on August 11, 2023 [26 favorites]
Mentally unhealthy, check.
Not considered sufficiently "manly", double check.
Sent to a therapist when they thought it was just basic depression? Check.
Miserable? A check the size of Montana.
Said therapist, I found out, was a member of NARTH, which probably explains why I never felt right for years until I came out as trans, which probably would have gotten me daily beatings bloody with no sympathy from anyone in high school in the 1980s, and no sympathy at home, and then I probably would have left there one way or another (either running away or my own personally fitted body bag). The fact I survived may count as its own small miracle.
The fact any people like me survive is its own miracle.
posted by mephron at 6:57 AM on August 11, 2023 [26 favorites]
> It shocked me—it still does decades later—how quickly my “friends” stopped including me in anything at all.
not to dilute the topic too much here but i feel like that's not limited to jocks/sports teams/ableism either, i think it's a broad human tribalism. i am still a bit taken aback at how summarily i've been excommunicated from my old nerdy gaming groups after exiting an abusive relationship and not wanting to play D&D anymore with the abuser. that person still gets invited to game nights. i do not. nor do i get invited to anything else from this group, anymore.
posted by glonous keming at 6:59 AM on August 11, 2023 [7 favorites]
not to dilute the topic too much here but i feel like that's not limited to jocks/sports teams/ableism either, i think it's a broad human tribalism. i am still a bit taken aback at how summarily i've been excommunicated from my old nerdy gaming groups after exiting an abusive relationship and not wanting to play D&D anymore with the abuser. that person still gets invited to game nights. i do not. nor do i get invited to anything else from this group, anymore.
posted by glonous keming at 6:59 AM on August 11, 2023 [7 favorites]
Interesting that the article has a picture of an athletic, conventionally attractive kid looking sad. I guess providing representation to unathletic or unattractive kids in media, even when you're explicitly talking about them, would have been a bridge too far. But hey maybe this is something we can fix in school with more rules.
posted by teh_boy at 7:14 AM on August 11, 2023 [16 favorites]
posted by teh_boy at 7:14 AM on August 11, 2023 [16 favorites]
I studiously learned all the skills and values I was taught would lead to success in the real world, but thirty years later I'm still waiting for that real world to show up.
posted by Faint of Butt at 7:20 AM on August 11, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by Faint of Butt at 7:20 AM on August 11, 2023 [7 favorites]
What the hell, have another personal history.
I'm a Boomer. Not athletic, not especially pretty. And really bad at people.
I had no friends at school and was harassed. I suspect there was a campaign of ostracism against me, since I had a couple of friends (at least hanging out friends) in my neighborhood.
I went away to college and discovered sf fandom, the first place where i fit in.
I've never had a drinking problem, but that's because I don't like alcohol, and for good and ill, I'm bad at making myself do things I don't like.
I could be wrong, but I really do think athleticism as a path to popularity for girls is progress in a way, at least for girls who like sports. The drawback is more injuries, and presumably pressure for girls who don't like or can't do sports.
What I see is that instead of the world being more welcoming generally, there are higher expectations for athletic ability for women and higher expectations for appearance for men.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 7:24 AM on August 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
I'm a Boomer. Not athletic, not especially pretty. And really bad at people.
I had no friends at school and was harassed. I suspect there was a campaign of ostracism against me, since I had a couple of friends (at least hanging out friends) in my neighborhood.
I went away to college and discovered sf fandom, the first place where i fit in.
I've never had a drinking problem, but that's because I don't like alcohol, and for good and ill, I'm bad at making myself do things I don't like.
I could be wrong, but I really do think athleticism as a path to popularity for girls is progress in a way, at least for girls who like sports. The drawback is more injuries, and presumably pressure for girls who don't like or can't do sports.
What I see is that instead of the world being more welcoming generally, there are higher expectations for athletic ability for women and higher expectations for appearance for men.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 7:24 AM on August 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
I would question the necessity of this study but I notice that it comes from Florida, where adult political fantasies about the life of children rule the day.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 7:28 AM on August 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 7:28 AM on August 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
I have not looked at TFA though I read the thread, and nonetheless I feel ok about saying "WTF is wrong with people that this is news to literally anybody?"
posted by Aardvark Cheeselog at 8:02 AM on August 11, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by Aardvark Cheeselog at 8:02 AM on August 11, 2023 [11 favorites]
This is confusing (emphasis added).
posted by star gentle uterus at 8:03 AM on August 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
The study put to rest stereotypes about sex differences in traits important for success with peers. For decades, it was assumed that not being athletic was particularly problematic for boys and that not being attractive was particularly problematic for girls.So are these stereotypes, or was this gender difference true until recently?
The findings reveal a transformation in adolescent social culture such that the social penalties attached to being low in attractiveness or low in athleticism are no longer gender specific.
posted by star gentle uterus at 8:03 AM on August 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
This is all the usual: people don't like people who aren't just like them.
The only shocking thing in this is that middle schoolers are drinking? That much? That many of them?
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:01 AM on August 11, 2023
The only shocking thing in this is that middle schoolers are drinking? That much? That many of them?
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:01 AM on August 11, 2023
Same as Foosnark and others, here: GenX. In middle school I was a nerd, not athletic at school, definitely not good looking. It was hellish.
University life changed that.
But afterwards? Adult life is a mixed back. Nerds and nerd culture have ascended, but athlete worship has hardly declined, and lookism (awful word, needs a replacement) remains deeply entrenched.
posted by doctornemo at 9:10 AM on August 11, 2023
University life changed that.
But afterwards? Adult life is a mixed back. Nerds and nerd culture have ascended, but athlete worship has hardly declined, and lookism (awful word, needs a replacement) remains deeply entrenched.
posted by doctornemo at 9:10 AM on August 11, 2023
wha...?
Since when was it ever okay for boys not to be conventionally attractive? The way I remember it, the most important required qualities for middle school students to survive unbullied were the same for both genders. At my middle school the hierarchy of required qualities for little white kids was as follows:
1. pretty in the face or at least not strikingly unconventional looking (some acne is okay, but cystic acne not permitted. that there was nothing you could do to "cure" cystic acne was immaterial) (the wrong glasses or hair not styled correctly absolutely not permitted. Too bad if you have neglectful, poverty-stricken, or unsympathetic parents or no parents. You are still responsible for maintaining middle-class markers like "good skin." According to the 12-year-old judiciary, the quality of one's parents has no bearing on the question. You could have done something about it (? robbed a liquor store to pay for a trip to Supercuts...?) but you didn't; you are therefore an affront to decency and must be rubbed out.)
2. clean with no detectable effluvia (it is never okay to have greasy or uncombed hair or to smell like anything other than detergent, shampoo, or cologne/perfume)
3. dressed like everybody else, again regardless of your parent situation
4. possessed of conventional social mannerisms--not "weird" or a nerd (no neurodivergence permitted)
5. competent at P.E. bullshit so as not to be chosen late in those horrible draft picks sociopathic coaches put kids through (you suck at kickball? you die.)
6. not fat
7. straight
8. pretty in the body (this one steadily moved up in the hierarchy as one moved out of tween and into teen)
Gendered requirements:
9. not a "whore" (girls only)
10. not a "virgin" (boys only)
posted by Don Pepino at 9:17 AM on August 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
Since when was it ever okay for boys not to be conventionally attractive? The way I remember it, the most important required qualities for middle school students to survive unbullied were the same for both genders. At my middle school the hierarchy of required qualities for little white kids was as follows:
1. pretty in the face or at least not strikingly unconventional looking (some acne is okay, but cystic acne not permitted. that there was nothing you could do to "cure" cystic acne was immaterial) (the wrong glasses or hair not styled correctly absolutely not permitted. Too bad if you have neglectful, poverty-stricken, or unsympathetic parents or no parents. You are still responsible for maintaining middle-class markers like "good skin." According to the 12-year-old judiciary, the quality of one's parents has no bearing on the question. You could have done something about it (? robbed a liquor store to pay for a trip to Supercuts...?) but you didn't; you are therefore an affront to decency and must be rubbed out.)
2. clean with no detectable effluvia (it is never okay to have greasy or uncombed hair or to smell like anything other than detergent, shampoo, or cologne/perfume)
3. dressed like everybody else, again regardless of your parent situation
4. possessed of conventional social mannerisms--not "weird" or a nerd (no neurodivergence permitted)
5. competent at P.E. bullshit so as not to be chosen late in those horrible draft picks sociopathic coaches put kids through (you suck at kickball? you die.)
6. not fat
7. straight
8. pretty in the body (this one steadily moved up in the hierarchy as one moved out of tween and into teen)
Gendered requirements:
9. not a "whore" (girls only)
10. not a "virgin" (boys only)
posted by Don Pepino at 9:17 AM on August 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
I'm an old Gen X here, and the drinking thing is weird to me too. very few kids were drinking in Middle School, and it was definitely only the popular 'cool' kids who had access (older sibs, lenient parents). even more so in high school. the cool kids partied, the nerds were home watching tv with their parents.
I was not overweight, and I guess I am sufficiently "conventionally attractive" although I certainly did not think so at the time. but I wore glasses and had braces and was shy and bookish and not into sports (I played, because you have to look well-rounded for your college application yadda yadda but I didn't play well.) I was never the bottom of the pecking order, as their were always kids in those dreaded categories ('fat', 'ugly', 'weird' by whatever metric) who had it worse. but I was never near the top. I don't know if that affected my adult life, except professionally, where I have always struggled to do more than get by.
posted by supermedusa at 9:19 AM on August 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
I was not overweight, and I guess I am sufficiently "conventionally attractive" although I certainly did not think so at the time. but I wore glasses and had braces and was shy and bookish and not into sports (I played, because you have to look well-rounded for your college application yadda yadda but I didn't play well.) I was never the bottom of the pecking order, as their were always kids in those dreaded categories ('fat', 'ugly', 'weird' by whatever metric) who had it worse. but I was never near the top. I don't know if that affected my adult life, except professionally, where I have always struggled to do more than get by.
posted by supermedusa at 9:19 AM on August 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
Participants were asked to identify classmates who best fit the following descriptors: athletic (“good at sports”), attractive (“really good-looking”), and unpopular (“unpopular”).
Harrowing. Were the kids in the study in the same peer group? My middle school self would have just died if asked to categorize classmates like this. Especially if not categorizing someone as, say, attractive (stupid term) meant they were unattractive.
Getting a terrible case of third-hand embarrassment.
posted by Baethan at 9:25 AM on August 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
Harrowing. Were the kids in the study in the same peer group? My middle school self would have just died if asked to categorize classmates like this. Especially if not categorizing someone as, say, attractive (stupid term) meant they were unattractive.
Getting a terrible case of third-hand embarrassment.
posted by Baethan at 9:25 AM on August 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
Participants were asked to identify classmates who best fit the following descriptors: athletic (“good at sports”), attractive (“really good-looking”), and unpopular (“unpopular”)
I wonder how closely "rated by peers as good at sports" actually tracks being good at sports. As subdee mentioned above, I wonder if being good at sports only helps if you're on a highly visible school sports team.
My kid's in a roller derby league unaffiliated with school. Will she get the benefits of being "good at sports" if she gets good at roller derby? Seems possible. She'll get the psychological benefits everyone always touts about sports: teamwork, a supportive community, "grit" or whatever. Maybe sportiness will make her into the sort of person who naturally becomes popular.
Or will she not get those benefits, because her sports-goodness is invisible to everyone at school? Does the popularity bump from athletics only accrue to the perception of athleticism?
I strongly suspect the latter.
Related: at least where I live, roller derby is an amazing, inclusive sport with a wonderful culture that mostly just seems better and better the more I become a part of it. I despise sports, but I love roller derby.
posted by gurple at 9:31 AM on August 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
I wonder how closely "rated by peers as good at sports" actually tracks being good at sports. As subdee mentioned above, I wonder if being good at sports only helps if you're on a highly visible school sports team.
My kid's in a roller derby league unaffiliated with school. Will she get the benefits of being "good at sports" if she gets good at roller derby? Seems possible. She'll get the psychological benefits everyone always touts about sports: teamwork, a supportive community, "grit" or whatever. Maybe sportiness will make her into the sort of person who naturally becomes popular.
Or will she not get those benefits, because her sports-goodness is invisible to everyone at school? Does the popularity bump from athletics only accrue to the perception of athleticism?
I strongly suspect the latter.
Related: at least where I live, roller derby is an amazing, inclusive sport with a wonderful culture that mostly just seems better and better the more I become a part of it. I despise sports, but I love roller derby.
posted by gurple at 9:31 AM on August 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
These kids need a healthy subculture to join.
This was one of my thoughts as well. Talking about this with my wife, she was saying that she had a really good middle school experience because elementary school was awful and middle school is where she found her weirdos. For myself, seventh grade sucked because I was the youngest child and my last sibling had just gone off to college and I hadn't really found a stable "crowd" yet, though I was never truly without friends. I wasn't really athletic, at least not in a team sports way (I could run fast, but wasn't doing track, and I could ski very well, but that didn't come up in Houston) and I can't gauge my attractiveness at that age (probably pretty mid-tier) but this article isn't about my experience anyway. Okay I've gotten way off-track, so...
When I found theatre kids in eighth grade, it clicked for me, and they remained my group of weirdos through graduation (and then, much much later, in law school, I found that crowd again.) I know that band/orchestra served a similar role for a lot of kids who didn't fit the "accepted" molds. This study is, yes, "DUH," but it's also an important thing to actually study in a quantitative way, and is ALSO pretty limited in its scope here, as others have mentioned.
So the other thing I'd mention, because I was surprised by the "gender-egalitarianism" here, is that non-athletic but attractive boys and non-conventionally-attractive but athletic girls are both more likely to have that key ingredient of self-confidence that translates very well into social interactions with one's peers. This is one of those aspects of this study where I wish we had previous iterations to compare it to, because things might not have changed as much over the decades in this regard as we'd assume.
posted by Navelgazer at 10:31 AM on August 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
This was one of my thoughts as well. Talking about this with my wife, she was saying that she had a really good middle school experience because elementary school was awful and middle school is where she found her weirdos. For myself, seventh grade sucked because I was the youngest child and my last sibling had just gone off to college and I hadn't really found a stable "crowd" yet, though I was never truly without friends. I wasn't really athletic, at least not in a team sports way (I could run fast, but wasn't doing track, and I could ski very well, but that didn't come up in Houston) and I can't gauge my attractiveness at that age (probably pretty mid-tier) but this article isn't about my experience anyway. Okay I've gotten way off-track, so...
When I found theatre kids in eighth grade, it clicked for me, and they remained my group of weirdos through graduation (and then, much much later, in law school, I found that crowd again.) I know that band/orchestra served a similar role for a lot of kids who didn't fit the "accepted" molds. This study is, yes, "DUH," but it's also an important thing to actually study in a quantitative way, and is ALSO pretty limited in its scope here, as others have mentioned.
So the other thing I'd mention, because I was surprised by the "gender-egalitarianism" here, is that non-athletic but attractive boys and non-conventionally-attractive but athletic girls are both more likely to have that key ingredient of self-confidence that translates very well into social interactions with one's peers. This is one of those aspects of this study where I wish we had previous iterations to compare it to, because things might not have changed as much over the decades in this regard as we'd assume.
posted by Navelgazer at 10:31 AM on August 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
So FWIW, I just RTFA and scanned the paper the press release is promoting. This is not my area of expertise but just to clear up possible misconceptions on the paper:
1) This is a relatively well worn area of research. The paper has citations going back to the 60s.
2) The gendered difference in importances of attractiveness versus athleticism is something that has been repeatedly demonstrated in prior research BUT less consistently more recently
3) It is unclear if this change in the role of gender is due to (a) methodological issues or (b) changing social norms
4) This focus on this paper is actually on using a statistical method to show peer perception (popularity) is the mediating factor driving a previously described relationship low-peer-rated attractiveness and negative health outcomes (i.e. loneliness, alcohol exposure).
5) This group probably chose alcohol and loneliness as measurement outcomes because prior research/grants have followed these outcomes. These were the only outcomes measured.
posted by midmarch snowman at 11:22 AM on August 11, 2023 [9 favorites]
1) This is a relatively well worn area of research. The paper has citations going back to the 60s.
2) The gendered difference in importances of attractiveness versus athleticism is something that has been repeatedly demonstrated in prior research BUT less consistently more recently
3) It is unclear if this change in the role of gender is due to (a) methodological issues or (b) changing social norms
4) This focus on this paper is actually on using a statistical method to show peer perception (popularity) is the mediating factor driving a previously described relationship low-peer-rated attractiveness and negative health outcomes (i.e. loneliness, alcohol exposure).
5) This group probably chose alcohol and loneliness as measurement outcomes because prior research/grants have followed these outcomes. These were the only outcomes measured.
posted by midmarch snowman at 11:22 AM on August 11, 2023 [9 favorites]
I get pretty frustrated with the reductive criteria of these surveys, but from my own bittersweet experience as a middle-schooler and teen, yeah, this rings pretty true.
It would be great for there to be more options for different kinds of kids to find a way to shine, and it’s easy to get fatalistic.
Teenage tribalism/subcultures are an adaptation to this whole dynamic that offers comfort to kids who don’t find themselves near the top of the pyramid, but I also think they can sometimes sorta kinda maybe perpetuate/reify the problem… I remember so much affective polarization between teen subcultures in the early 90’s: “We don’t do sports, they do sports. We don’t take an interest in our appearance, that’s for plastic Barbie-people, we don’t join your dorky clubs, etc etc etc” Which was understandable as a defensive posture, but a pretty limiting belief.
Finding my crowd of average-cute brainy/arty alterna-kids was a huge, huge turning point for me as a young pup, but so was joining the ultimate frisbee team and discovering I loved it, despite being nobody’s idea of a jock.
I wish as many kids as possible could get the message that there is absolutely nothing wrong with them, that they already have everything they need to thrive, so screw the haters and mean kids… but I also want there to be a steady, gentle, reassuring message that considerable growth and change are possible and that all that potential can be found just beyond the edge of their pre-teen comfort zones.
It hurts my heart when it seems like some kid’s self-concept has calcified at age 12.
posted by ducky l'orange at 11:25 AM on August 11, 2023 [7 favorites]
It would be great for there to be more options for different kinds of kids to find a way to shine, and it’s easy to get fatalistic.
Teenage tribalism/subcultures are an adaptation to this whole dynamic that offers comfort to kids who don’t find themselves near the top of the pyramid, but I also think they can sometimes sorta kinda maybe perpetuate/reify the problem… I remember so much affective polarization between teen subcultures in the early 90’s: “We don’t do sports, they do sports. We don’t take an interest in our appearance, that’s for plastic Barbie-people, we don’t join your dorky clubs, etc etc etc” Which was understandable as a defensive posture, but a pretty limiting belief.
Finding my crowd of average-cute brainy/arty alterna-kids was a huge, huge turning point for me as a young pup, but so was joining the ultimate frisbee team and discovering I loved it, despite being nobody’s idea of a jock.
I wish as many kids as possible could get the message that there is absolutely nothing wrong with them, that they already have everything they need to thrive, so screw the haters and mean kids… but I also want there to be a steady, gentle, reassuring message that considerable growth and change are possible and that all that potential can be found just beyond the edge of their pre-teen comfort zones.
It hurts my heart when it seems like some kid’s self-concept has calcified at age 12.
posted by ducky l'orange at 11:25 AM on August 11, 2023 [7 favorites]
This study is kind of weird in my opinion. First, good at sports as judged by their peers, because organized school sports don't even start until 7th grade, ie: 12-13 years old. This study cuts off at 13. Plenty of kids play club sports before hand, but those are self-selected groups and not necessarily comprised of student-school peers, especially at larger schools/larger cities, and their skill level is basically self-reported/direct reports are far more limited.
Are they really judging 'competence at sports' based on kickball & dodgeball in PE? If so, they should be far more direct about that. And to that extent, excelling in small group, off campus sports like gymnastics, roller hockey, running, or tennis are not particularly valuable in raising social cache. So declaring 'competence at sports' is not necessarily accurate.
Also, 'looks' are extremely variable in this age, as maturity age/growth spurts are extremely wide at these ages too. Weight on the other hand is far more bounded than older ages, ie: everyone is far more similar in weight than adults are. To this extent, you are really judging other factors, like early period/development by girls and early growth by boys (because no way 'attractive' but short boys because they haven't had a growth spurt yet are the top of the pyramid).
I also agree that the basic results are DUH, but the nuances of what they are studying are actually not nearly as clear-cut as they are making them out to be.
posted by The_Vegetables at 11:54 AM on August 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
Are they really judging 'competence at sports' based on kickball & dodgeball in PE? If so, they should be far more direct about that. And to that extent, excelling in small group, off campus sports like gymnastics, roller hockey, running, or tennis are not particularly valuable in raising social cache. So declaring 'competence at sports' is not necessarily accurate.
Also, 'looks' are extremely variable in this age, as maturity age/growth spurts are extremely wide at these ages too. Weight on the other hand is far more bounded than older ages, ie: everyone is far more similar in weight than adults are. To this extent, you are really judging other factors, like early period/development by girls and early growth by boys (because no way 'attractive' but short boys because they haven't had a growth spurt yet are the top of the pyramid).
I also agree that the basic results are DUH, but the nuances of what they are studying are actually not nearly as clear-cut as they are making them out to be.
posted by The_Vegetables at 11:54 AM on August 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
To this extent, you are really judging other factors, like early period/development by girls and early growth by boys...
Those things can stick with you. I was a small and shrimpy boy in middle school, because I was a year younger than everybody else. I had caught up by high school, but my self-image lagged behind for years longer.
There are many reasons why I wasn't Mr. Popularity in high school, but the ghost of having been the small and shrimpy kid when we were younger -- in my own head and in everyone else's -- was for sure one of them.
posted by gurple at 12:38 PM on August 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
Those things can stick with you. I was a small and shrimpy boy in middle school, because I was a year younger than everybody else. I had caught up by high school, but my self-image lagged behind for years longer.
There are many reasons why I wasn't Mr. Popularity in high school, but the ghost of having been the small and shrimpy kid when we were younger -- in my own head and in everyone else's -- was for sure one of them.
posted by gurple at 12:38 PM on August 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
Un-attractive and un-athletic here. I still hate sports intensely to this day.
posted by mike3k at 1:23 PM on August 11, 2023
posted by mike3k at 1:23 PM on August 11, 2023
Is it easier for kids to get booze in Lithuania?
Than in the US? Almost certainly. Until recently, the legal drinking age there was 18. It's still lower than the US's 21, if only by a year. It's also something you can buy in regular supermarkets, not special liquor stores like in a lot of the US, I gather. Reports suggest that access to alcohol around the restrictions is pretty commonplace.
posted by Dysk at 3:30 PM on August 11, 2023
Than in the US? Almost certainly. Until recently, the legal drinking age there was 18. It's still lower than the US's 21, if only by a year. It's also something you can buy in regular supermarkets, not special liquor stores like in a lot of the US, I gather. Reports suggest that access to alcohol around the restrictions is pretty commonplace.
posted by Dysk at 3:30 PM on August 11, 2023
what a fun post to contemplate, two days before my extremely undersized child starts middle school
posted by daisystomper at 4:17 PM on August 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by daisystomper at 4:17 PM on August 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
For a 30,000 student public university on the Atlantic coast of Florida way down near the southern tip, this really does seem like straining at gnats while swallowing an entire menagerie.
Or should I say it's dSantisized?
Anything less anodyne might get you fired, tenure or not.
posted by jamjam at 5:51 PM on August 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
Or should I say it's dSantisized?
Anything less anodyne might get you fired, tenure or not.
posted by jamjam at 5:51 PM on August 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
I feel like what the study shows is that middle-school aged children tend not to have yet learned which traits are helpful to value in an individual they know in person nor how to behave appropriately socially.
I'm not sure why you think this ends with middle school. Tall men (I am one) have repeatedly been shown to be overvalued throughout life. Conventionally attractive people (and athleticism is generally part of that) have been repeatedly shown to be overvalued throughout life.
posted by Candleman at 12:57 AM on August 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'm not sure why you think this ends with middle school. Tall men (I am one) have repeatedly been shown to be overvalued throughout life. Conventionally attractive people (and athleticism is generally part of that) have been repeatedly shown to be overvalued throughout life.
posted by Candleman at 12:57 AM on August 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
Those things can stick with you. I was a small and shrimpy boy in middle school, because I was a year younger than everybody else. I had caught up by high school, but my self-image lagged behind for years longer.
That's another important point. The growth of a child in middle school can be really dramatic over the course of a year, and since school age cutoff is generally August, kids can turn 11 in August or as late as June/July, which is nearly a full year of developmental difference.
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:38 AM on August 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
That's another important point. The growth of a child in middle school can be really dramatic over the course of a year, and since school age cutoff is generally August, kids can turn 11 in August or as late as June/July, which is nearly a full year of developmental difference.
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:38 AM on August 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
hey y'all remember that thing about "alpha wolves" and the dominance hierarchy and suchlike, and how that's an artifact of the captivity of the wolves? Wolves in the wild don't do like that: they organize in family groups, and they wander seasonally from one "territory" to another.
Does that maybe ring any bells? Anyone seeing any similarities to bullying in school in the bullying that occurs in workplaces?
Last night I was bullied away from the place where I had parked the van I have to sleep in because I have no other fucking place to go. This bullying (beating on the outside of the van) was done by folks in the same situation. We can move about somewhat, but we are nonetheless in captivity.
Maybe the takeaway shouldn't be "kids are cruel" but "captivity breeds cruelty".
Burn the cages. Let the kids out. Yes, something bad might happen- but something bad is happening already, ffs.
posted by Rev. Irreverent Revenant at 12:42 PM on August 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
Does that maybe ring any bells? Anyone seeing any similarities to bullying in school in the bullying that occurs in workplaces?
Last night I was bullied away from the place where I had parked the van I have to sleep in because I have no other fucking place to go. This bullying (beating on the outside of the van) was done by folks in the same situation. We can move about somewhat, but we are nonetheless in captivity.
Maybe the takeaway shouldn't be "kids are cruel" but "captivity breeds cruelty".
Burn the cages. Let the kids out. Yes, something bad might happen- but something bad is happening already, ffs.
posted by Rev. Irreverent Revenant at 12:42 PM on August 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
OK, different wolves do differently, I was talking about Arctic wolves in a particular part of Nunavut, I'm not a wolf expert but just a reader of books
posted by Rev. Irreverent Revenant at 12:44 PM on August 12, 2023
posted by Rev. Irreverent Revenant at 12:44 PM on August 12, 2023
glad to see the maximegalon institute for slowly and painfully working out the surprisingly obvious is still dropping shit
posted by Sebmojo at 8:41 PM on August 13, 2023
posted by Sebmojo at 8:41 PM on August 13, 2023
I think that while I'm conventionally attractive I was also ostracized as a kid because I was 1) Asian American who lived in an area that was literally over 95% white and 2) just the biggest nerd, incredibly uncoordinated and not athletic, and also probably fairly borderline given the physical and emotional abuse I saw at home. so I ended up being the very frequent target of bullying at pretty much at every public school while also, in retrospect, once in a blue moon having someone I felt was way out of my league express interest in me in a way that I just could not comprehend
as an adult now who enjoys working out and is learning how to take care of myself, it's a world of difference. jobs are easier to get, people tell me I'm a 'born leader' when all I do is state the obvious, friends are super easy to make, and while online dating probably wasn't optimal in the sense that it still seems like Asian men in the cishet community still are universally rated lower, it was still pretty easy to set up a lot of dates with a lot of cool people and eventually meet my now longterm partner within a year
I think the thing about this study is that the results are blatantly obvious to those of us who have ever been on the negative side of things. it's so easy to feel like I deserve all of my successes now, full stop, because life is like this for everyone. but it's not, not at all, because I was only a decade ago on the other side of things, floundering in interviews, without many friends, depressed and agoraphobic because of a number of reasons and unfortunately physical attractiveness was likely one of them
I think some people need the authority that is 'published scientific study' to understand that there exists an invisibilized, oppressive standard. I think pretty privilege is something that is easy to take for granted and to then universalize before blaming people for 'whining' when they talk about it because it feels like it devalues your own successes. but it exists, absolutely, you can work hard as hell but if you're pretty, that work takes you way further than it does someone who doesn't fit the conventional mold
it absolutely sucks that people won't take you at your word about a kind of normalized oppression that you've seen in action your entire life but that also seems to be the nature of thing, unfortunately
posted by paimapi at 9:48 AM on August 14, 2023 [4 favorites]
as an adult now who enjoys working out and is learning how to take care of myself, it's a world of difference. jobs are easier to get, people tell me I'm a 'born leader' when all I do is state the obvious, friends are super easy to make, and while online dating probably wasn't optimal in the sense that it still seems like Asian men in the cishet community still are universally rated lower, it was still pretty easy to set up a lot of dates with a lot of cool people and eventually meet my now longterm partner within a year
I think the thing about this study is that the results are blatantly obvious to those of us who have ever been on the negative side of things. it's so easy to feel like I deserve all of my successes now, full stop, because life is like this for everyone. but it's not, not at all, because I was only a decade ago on the other side of things, floundering in interviews, without many friends, depressed and agoraphobic because of a number of reasons and unfortunately physical attractiveness was likely one of them
I think some people need the authority that is 'published scientific study' to understand that there exists an invisibilized, oppressive standard. I think pretty privilege is something that is easy to take for granted and to then universalize before blaming people for 'whining' when they talk about it because it feels like it devalues your own successes. but it exists, absolutely, you can work hard as hell but if you're pretty, that work takes you way further than it does someone who doesn't fit the conventional mold
it absolutely sucks that people won't take you at your word about a kind of normalized oppression that you've seen in action your entire life but that also seems to be the nature of thing, unfortunately
posted by paimapi at 9:48 AM on August 14, 2023 [4 favorites]
I think some people need the authority that is 'published scientific study' to understand that there exists an invisibilized, oppressive standard.
It's more that science needs the published scientific study so that other studies delving into nuances and potential solutions can cite the studies establishing the phenomenon exists and is quantifiable.
posted by telophase at 1:02 PM on August 14, 2023 [5 favorites]
It's more that science needs the published scientific study so that other studies delving into nuances and potential solutions can cite the studies establishing the phenomenon exists and is quantifiable.
posted by telophase at 1:02 PM on August 14, 2023 [5 favorites]
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The closest we come is "the peer group punishes" and that wording is telling: punishment is a penalty inflicted in response to misconduct.
posted by away for regrooving at 12:22 AM on August 11, 2023 [50 favorites]