Nobody Will Tell the Ugly Reason Apple Acquired a Classical Music Label
September 16, 2023 12:55 PM Subscribe
But you need to know, because it offers a glimpse into the dark future of streaming (archive.today link)
If Apple wanted to get deep into streaming classical music on the cheap, they would probably get more for the dollar by buying a label like Naxos (or just buy out its parent holding company, altogether), which is in some respects like the classical music equivalent of Dover Press. Is there some deeper analysis into what this tiny purchase actually means for broadcasting classical music, or is this more just bordering on angry screed territory?
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 1:08 PM on September 16, 2023 [17 favorites]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 1:08 PM on September 16, 2023 [17 favorites]
Coming soon: My open letter to the one person who (I believe) is best equipped to take the lead in solving this problem. You might find this surprising, but her name is Taylor Swift.
I am waiting impatiently for this.
posted by chavenet at 1:09 PM on September 16, 2023 [12 favorites]
I am waiting impatiently for this.
posted by chavenet at 1:09 PM on September 16, 2023 [12 favorites]
The influence of Taylor Swift amongst classical music labels is not widely known.
posted by hippybear at 1:12 PM on September 16, 2023 [20 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 1:12 PM on September 16, 2023 [20 favorites]
The Taylor Swift article is already out. The last living original Holy Modal Rounder shared it on Facebook recently.
posted by snofoam at 1:23 PM on September 16, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by snofoam at 1:23 PM on September 16, 2023 [7 favorites]
This blog post is insane. Apple recently launched a classical music app featuring over 5 million tracks and touted partnerships with many top orchestras and artists.
posted by snofoam at 1:28 PM on September 16, 2023 [27 favorites]
posted by snofoam at 1:28 PM on September 16, 2023 [27 favorites]
I suspect this analysis is basically correct, but the two theses offered ("apple loves musicians" vs. "apple hates musicians") are laughably crude. Gioia doesn't even seem to know that Apple recently launched a dedicated streaming app that is oriented around classical music (Apple Music Classical) - it seems likely that acquiring Bis is indeed intended to provide recordings of standard rep that they can feature on that app, while limiting costs.
Gioia seems to believe that this somehow steals money from the pockets of musicians who recorded on other labels? Kind of a hard argument to back up when you are talking about competing recordings of standard rep, where one cannot reasonably expect to earn much of anything.
Out of all of this I am most disappointed to learn that the eminent jazz historian Gioia is another crank, like a Norman Lebrecht or some shit. I'm tired of people who lose their goddamn minds over nice music.
posted by anhedonic at 1:29 PM on September 16, 2023 [20 favorites]
Gioia seems to believe that this somehow steals money from the pockets of musicians who recorded on other labels? Kind of a hard argument to back up when you are talking about competing recordings of standard rep, where one cannot reasonably expect to earn much of anything.
Out of all of this I am most disappointed to learn that the eminent jazz historian Gioia is another crank, like a Norman Lebrecht or some shit. I'm tired of people who lose their goddamn minds over nice music.
posted by anhedonic at 1:29 PM on September 16, 2023 [20 favorites]
I am interested in why Apple would buy a small, classical record label. Unfortunately this article doesn’t say much about that.
posted by TurnKey at 1:30 PM on September 16, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by TurnKey at 1:30 PM on September 16, 2023 [11 favorites]
Maybe they bought that tiny classical label to have access to master recordings so they could process them in spatial audio or something, but of course they’re not going to do a press event about it. They buy companies 100 times bigger and don’t even comment on it.
posted by snofoam at 1:31 PM on September 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by snofoam at 1:31 PM on September 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
I am interested in why Apple would buy a small, classical record label. Unfortunately this article doesn’t say much about that.
An inexpensive acqui-hire of regional organizational/management skills seems more plausible?
posted by mhoye at 1:34 PM on September 16, 2023 [7 favorites]
An inexpensive acqui-hire of regional organizational/management skills seems more plausible?
posted by mhoye at 1:34 PM on September 16, 2023 [7 favorites]
I think we're beginning to see that being a streaming service really isn't profitable
An average user listens to 20.1 hrs of music per week (2.87 hrs/day) which is 1500 streams per month, along with the low payout rates, that should make most of them profitable, (Tidal is an outlier whch pays much higher per-stream rates).
e.g. Spotify would need to be blowing more than $2 billion/year on staffing and server costs to be making a loss.
Of course they are declaring an annual loss of $1.2 billion, but that just shows they have good accountants and are investing heavily, the narrative that they are 'scraping by' is very convenient.
And I absolutely believe Ted's idea that they are buying this catalog to divert listeners from other content which would cost more, the reason Spotify are happy to back Joe Rogan is that every user listening to his ramblings for hours on end is a listener not streaming copyright music they would have to pay for.
posted by Lanark at 1:35 PM on September 16, 2023 [9 favorites]
An average user listens to 20.1 hrs of music per week (2.87 hrs/day) which is 1500 streams per month, along with the low payout rates, that should make most of them profitable, (Tidal is an outlier whch pays much higher per-stream rates).
e.g. Spotify would need to be blowing more than $2 billion/year on staffing and server costs to be making a loss.
Of course they are declaring an annual loss of $1.2 billion, but that just shows they have good accountants and are investing heavily, the narrative that they are 'scraping by' is very convenient.
And I absolutely believe Ted's idea that they are buying this catalog to divert listeners from other content which would cost more, the reason Spotify are happy to back Joe Rogan is that every user listening to his ramblings for hours on end is a listener not streaming copyright music they would have to pay for.
posted by Lanark at 1:35 PM on September 16, 2023 [9 favorites]
Taylor Swift not an influence on classical? Surely you've heard her piece Excutite Eam in C (Allegro vivace)?
posted by indexy at 1:51 PM on September 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by indexy at 1:51 PM on September 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
Nothing suspicious about this at all! Why, Apple Music is the kindest, bravest, warmest, most wonderful human being I've ever known in my life.
posted by lalochezia at 1:51 PM on September 16, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by lalochezia at 1:51 PM on September 16, 2023 [5 favorites]
But how many music fans searching for Beethoven or Mozart on streaming are picky about conductors and orchestras?
Did they really write that?
Case dismissed.
posted by senor biggles at 1:53 PM on September 16, 2023 [33 favorites]
Did they really write that?
Case dismissed.
posted by senor biggles at 1:53 PM on September 16, 2023 [33 favorites]
Apple buys small companies. It doesn’t do big ones (beats was the big exception). The article shows no understanding of how Apple actually does business and I spent ten minutes failing to comment on the article piece because it wanted way too much information. I tried to tell them to fuck off but even that didn’t go through,
posted by Galvanic at 2:22 PM on September 16, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by Galvanic at 2:22 PM on September 16, 2023 [5 favorites]
This... was not a good blog post.
posted by danhon at 2:23 PM on September 16, 2023 [26 favorites]
posted by danhon at 2:23 PM on September 16, 2023 [26 favorites]
Without looking it up, I would assume that classical music fans are one of the most affluent demographics. Apple’s incentive to make a best in class classical music app is probably to attract these people to the Apple ecosystem so they will buy hardware. This doesn’t make sense with some kind of theory that Apple is investing in being the best classical music service, but will actually try to get people to listen to off brand orchestras. Just look at regular Apple Music, it’s full of exclusives and stuff from the very most popular acts.
Another thing that I think might happen, and will disprove this blogger’s wacky theories, is that Apple will do some kind of classical music experience, like as a way to sell super expensive VR goggles to super rich people. And if they do that, it will certainly be with big name orchestras, conductors, musicians.
posted by snofoam at 2:37 PM on September 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
Another thing that I think might happen, and will disprove this blogger’s wacky theories, is that Apple will do some kind of classical music experience, like as a way to sell super expensive VR goggles to super rich people. And if they do that, it will certainly be with big name orchestras, conductors, musicians.
posted by snofoam at 2:37 PM on September 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
I had hoped for a decent analysis, but this was not it. Apple buying a label does raise a lot of questions and I wonder what happens to that label's physical sales now that Apple owns them. The purchase seems to fit in with Apple launching its own classical app - and they may indeed recommend their own music first via that app.
But... this is too conspiracy tinged and breathless to persuade. And his foaming around the iPhone event not mentioning this? Dude. Have you met Apple? It's what they do. An iPhone launch is not where they hold a press conference for everything they've done since the last announcement.
The "Apple needs to reduce costs" is just comedic. Apple Music may or may not make money, but it keeps people in the Apple ecosystem. It means that users who are tied up in Apple Music may have one more thing that ties them to iOS, iPadOS and macOS. Spotify users can just use Android and that won't do.
Apple and Spotify will absolutely push listeners to content that they don't have to pay royalties on. (And I have zero love for Spotify's embrace of Joe Rogan and pushing podcasts instead of music...) But... if listeners just don't give a rat's behind about what they listen to, I'm not sure that I can blame the streamers for this. If you sell Rum & Coke and it turns out that nobody gives a damn if you use top shelf rum or the cheapest rum you can find, why use the good stuff?
There's a deeper problem that I think he's really angry about, and the streamers are just exploiting it – most people don't care deeply about music the way he does or I do. They just don't. Some people care very deeply about classical or jazz or whatever genres.
I suspect many, many more just put on classical music as background that they can work with. And they buy Apple devices. Apple is catering to them and their use case.
posted by jzb at 2:44 PM on September 16, 2023 [10 favorites]
But... this is too conspiracy tinged and breathless to persuade. And his foaming around the iPhone event not mentioning this? Dude. Have you met Apple? It's what they do. An iPhone launch is not where they hold a press conference for everything they've done since the last announcement.
The "Apple needs to reduce costs" is just comedic. Apple Music may or may not make money, but it keeps people in the Apple ecosystem. It means that users who are tied up in Apple Music may have one more thing that ties them to iOS, iPadOS and macOS. Spotify users can just use Android and that won't do.
Apple and Spotify will absolutely push listeners to content that they don't have to pay royalties on. (And I have zero love for Spotify's embrace of Joe Rogan and pushing podcasts instead of music...) But... if listeners just don't give a rat's behind about what they listen to, I'm not sure that I can blame the streamers for this. If you sell Rum & Coke and it turns out that nobody gives a damn if you use top shelf rum or the cheapest rum you can find, why use the good stuff?
There's a deeper problem that I think he's really angry about, and the streamers are just exploiting it – most people don't care deeply about music the way he does or I do. They just don't. Some people care very deeply about classical or jazz or whatever genres.
I suspect many, many more just put on classical music as background that they can work with. And they buy Apple devices. Apple is catering to them and their use case.
posted by jzb at 2:44 PM on September 16, 2023 [10 favorites]
Gioia’s books on jazz are good. He’s a jazz historian who is writing about something he knows as a musician and a fan. His substack, however… ugh, it’s messy. There’s been a few good pieces there but he’s drunk on not having an editor/getting paid by subscribers/just being generally irascible?
posted by The River Ivel at 2:48 PM on September 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by The River Ivel at 2:48 PM on September 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
Streaming seems to be pretty bad for artists in general, but Apple pays about 3x what Spotify does.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 2:55 PM on September 16, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 2:55 PM on September 16, 2023 [7 favorites]
I’m probably particularly down on him right this second because of the clickbait framing (is it supposed to be self-aware?) but I’m glad I’m not the only one frequently underwhelmed by Gioia’s industry analysis. It’s one of those situations where I would like to assume he knows a lot about some things I don’t, but when he addresses things I do know something about he seems to miss the mark pretty often!
posted by atoxyl at 2:58 PM on September 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by atoxyl at 2:58 PM on September 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
Yeah, this piece has "breathless, overhyped clickbait" written all over it. (Speaking of how the internet distorts and lowers the quality of content...)
Back in early the '90s, when I was a college student, there were suddenly a lot of cheap CDs for sale featuring staples of the classical repertoire recorded by orchestras in countries that had until recently been under Soviet domination. After the end of the Cold War, those highly trained musicians were suddenly available at a bargain to Western record companies.
I bought a number of those discs, as someone who had a casual interest in some classical music, but who was neither familiar with, nor particularly interested in learning about, which recordings, ensembles, soloists, conductors, etc. were considered the best of the best among classical cognoscenti.
This seems like a similar situation. The snobs can still seek out the performers and recordings they feel are the cream of the crop. The masses will likely make do with less fancy renditions. It's fine.
That said, streaming royalties for all musicians should be way higher!
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 2:58 PM on September 16, 2023 [5 favorites]
Back in early the '90s, when I was a college student, there were suddenly a lot of cheap CDs for sale featuring staples of the classical repertoire recorded by orchestras in countries that had until recently been under Soviet domination. After the end of the Cold War, those highly trained musicians were suddenly available at a bargain to Western record companies.
I bought a number of those discs, as someone who had a casual interest in some classical music, but who was neither familiar with, nor particularly interested in learning about, which recordings, ensembles, soloists, conductors, etc. were considered the best of the best among classical cognoscenti.
This seems like a similar situation. The snobs can still seek out the performers and recordings they feel are the cream of the crop. The masses will likely make do with less fancy renditions. It's fine.
That said, streaming royalties for all musicians should be way higher!
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 2:58 PM on September 16, 2023 [5 favorites]
The whole essay is so full of non-sequiturs and statements without any grounding. I was going to write something about "this is where it goes off the rails", figuring there must be a point where it turns, but there isn't a single point. The whole thing is a pinball bouncing around making chiming noises but you're never sure exactly what points are really being scored.
posted by hippybear at 3:02 PM on September 16, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 3:02 PM on September 16, 2023 [4 favorites]
Without knowing a lot about classical music labels and how much consolidation there is, maybe buying this label was a cheap way to make sure there are recordings of a bunch of pieces even if other labels go out of business, don’t want to stream or whatever.
posted by snofoam at 3:04 PM on September 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by snofoam at 3:04 PM on September 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
The snobs can still seek out the performers and recordings they feel are the cream of the crop.
What could possibly be snobbish about getting the best recording of a composition?
posted by slkinsey at 3:18 PM on September 16, 2023 [6 favorites]
What could possibly be snobbish about getting the best recording of a composition?
posted by slkinsey at 3:18 PM on September 16, 2023 [6 favorites]
I’m probably particularly down on him right this second because of the clickbait framing (is it supposed to be self-aware?) but I’m glad I’m not the only one frequently underwhelmed by Gioia’s industry analysis. It’s one of those situations where I would like to assume he knows a lot about some things I don’t, but when he addresses things I do know something about he seems to miss the mark pretty often!
I started following his blog somewhere around the time he was writing posts like this. At that time, I felt like he was surfacing some great stuff and was worth having in my news diet. ("news" diet? i dunno, whatever)
I don't know if he was never good or if he just took a sharp nosedive in the wake of his elevated profile, but the quality bar has been incredibly bad. Topics feel like they're chasing whatever happens to be shiny, and are somewhere on the spectrum between uninteresting and wrong.
This one is particularly frustrating because it's actually in Gioia's wheelhouse. There is unquestionably something THERE that will (again) result in musicians getting screwed out of a living, but it doesn't appear that Gioia has done much more than read the headline and crank out an opinion in the span of an hour. No doubt his background adds something to the piece, but this fight merits more than this level of investment.
posted by billjings at 3:20 PM on September 16, 2023
I started following his blog somewhere around the time he was writing posts like this. At that time, I felt like he was surfacing some great stuff and was worth having in my news diet. ("news" diet? i dunno, whatever)
I don't know if he was never good or if he just took a sharp nosedive in the wake of his elevated profile, but the quality bar has been incredibly bad. Topics feel like they're chasing whatever happens to be shiny, and are somewhere on the spectrum between uninteresting and wrong.
This one is particularly frustrating because it's actually in Gioia's wheelhouse. There is unquestionably something THERE that will (again) result in musicians getting screwed out of a living, but it doesn't appear that Gioia has done much more than read the headline and crank out an opinion in the span of an hour. No doubt his background adds something to the piece, but this fight merits more than this level of investment.
posted by billjings at 3:20 PM on September 16, 2023
I'm not so sure they're wrong about this. I mean, I'd bet that the typical person searching on streaming for, say, Jommelli might be picky about conductors and orchestras, but people searching on streaming for Beethoven or Mozart? I'd bet that the majority -- and maybe even the overwhelming majority -- of such people aren't really so into classical music as to be picky about it.But how many music fans searching for Beethoven or Mozart on streaming are picky about conductors and orchestras?Did they really write that?
Case dismissed.
posted by Flunkie at 3:55 PM on September 16, 2023 [6 favorites]
I hope nothing shittifies the music industry.
posted by fleacircus at 4:15 PM on September 16, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by fleacircus at 4:15 PM on September 16, 2023 [8 favorites]
The snobs can still seek out the performers and recordings they feel are the cream of the crop.
What could possibly be snobbish about getting the best recording of a composition?
If you believe there are objectively "best" recordings to be gotten, you're exactly the kind of person I'm talking about.
I'm using "snob" as shorthand, but if it rankles, substitute a different term (like "cognoscenti", which I also used). Regardless, I simply mean someone who places great weight on aesthetic distinctions that are meaningless to most people. I'm a snob about some things, just not classical recordings.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 4:52 PM on September 16, 2023
What could possibly be snobbish about getting the best recording of a composition?
If you believe there are objectively "best" recordings to be gotten, you're exactly the kind of person I'm talking about.
I'm using "snob" as shorthand, but if it rankles, substitute a different term (like "cognoscenti", which I also used). Regardless, I simply mean someone who places great weight on aesthetic distinctions that are meaningless to most people. I'm a snob about some things, just not classical recordings.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 4:52 PM on September 16, 2023
I'm not so sure they're wrong about this. I mean, I'd bet that the typical person searching on streaming for, say, Jommelli might be picky about conductors and orchestras, but people searching on streaming for Beethoven or Mozart? I'd bet that the majority -- and maybe even the overwhelming majority -- of such people aren't really so into classical music as to be picky about it.
Even back in the old days of record stores, classical music was often arranged by composer, or even era, rather than conductor/orchestra/soloist.
posted by 2N2222 at 5:02 PM on September 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
Even back in the old days of record stores, classical music was often arranged by composer, or even era, rather than conductor/orchestra/soloist.
posted by 2N2222 at 5:02 PM on September 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
2n2222:Even back in the old days of record stores, classical music was often arranged by composer, or even era, rather than conductor/orchestra/soloist.
Working in a record store back in the 90s, we even had a part-time worker who specialized in classical music who helped us organize our stock. It was deep magic because some top-level things were composer, but others were conductor or soloist. And we just cross-filed for popular things.
posted by indexy at 5:40 PM on September 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
Working in a record store back in the 90s, we even had a part-time worker who specialized in classical music who helped us organize our stock. It was deep magic because some top-level things were composer, but others were conductor or soloist. And we just cross-filed for popular things.
posted by indexy at 5:40 PM on September 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
This frankly reads like it was written by someone who got delayed at an airport, has about an hour and a half to kill, is grumpy about life right now, and has started to get loaded at the bar.
...but only because the bar has such convenient outlets for your laptop, you understand! Not because it's a bar.
posted by aramaic at 5:41 PM on September 16, 2023 [8 favorites]
...but only because the bar has such convenient outlets for your laptop, you understand! Not because it's a bar.
posted by aramaic at 5:41 PM on September 16, 2023 [8 favorites]
I'd be happy if I never had to read another word about Taylor Swift or hear her music ever again.
posted by mike3k at 5:56 PM on September 16, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by mike3k at 5:56 PM on September 16, 2023 [5 favorites]
some top-level things were composer, but others were conductor or soloist
I have such a terrible time figuring out how to enter track data for ?CDDB?. Whatever
I don’t know if there’s a decent schema for the various classical musics, but what we got isn’t it.
Ha, that might convince me of Apples good intentions: fix the metadata, and not just for Tchaikovsky and the twenty tracks used in cult movies.
posted by clew at 5:57 PM on September 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
I have such a terrible time figuring out how to enter track data for ?CDDB?. Whatever
abcde currently pulls from by default.I don’t know if there’s a decent schema for the various classical musics, but what we got isn’t it.
Ha, that might convince me of Apples good intentions: fix the metadata, and not just for Tchaikovsky and the twenty tracks used in cult movies.
posted by clew at 5:57 PM on September 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
I used to subscribe to Gioia's substack but his more interesting stuff about jazz, which I know little about, was going behind the paywall and stuff like this was staying outside it. He's really good in his area but unfortunately the man has the mediocre white dude disease of thinking expertise in one area makes him expert in all areas. After several weird posts like this, I noped out of his substack.
As it happens, Mr. Epigrams and I are also Apple ecosystems people and we subscribe to the big package that includes Apple Music (and now Classical). I am by no means a classical expert; I like early music and chamber ensembles; I know just enough to be dangerous. And I don't know a lot about Apple's internals, certainly not around music, but Gioia's theory doesn't make sense to me. I feel like buying the music label is kind of like them putting out their own content for Apple TV for a point of comparison.
Someone upthread pointed out that Apple generally doesn't buy big companies. This seems like Apple buying expertise as much as "content" and possibly giving them a foothold to do in classical music what they do in TV and movies. Classical music is just a different beast to modern popular music, probably because of the history of the two genres and how they're marketed as well as because of the way the music is made and the numbers of musicians involved in orchestral music.
I'd be worried if they bought a pop music label, but even as a person interested in classical music, this doesn't worry me for the musicians or the industry.
posted by gentlyepigrams at 6:00 PM on September 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
As it happens, Mr. Epigrams and I are also Apple ecosystems people and we subscribe to the big package that includes Apple Music (and now Classical). I am by no means a classical expert; I like early music and chamber ensembles; I know just enough to be dangerous. And I don't know a lot about Apple's internals, certainly not around music, but Gioia's theory doesn't make sense to me. I feel like buying the music label is kind of like them putting out their own content for Apple TV for a point of comparison.
Someone upthread pointed out that Apple generally doesn't buy big companies. This seems like Apple buying expertise as much as "content" and possibly giving them a foothold to do in classical music what they do in TV and movies. Classical music is just a different beast to modern popular music, probably because of the history of the two genres and how they're marketed as well as because of the way the music is made and the numbers of musicians involved in orchestral music.
I'd be worried if they bought a pop music label, but even as a person interested in classical music, this doesn't worry me for the musicians or the industry.
posted by gentlyepigrams at 6:00 PM on September 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
I'd be happy if I never had to read another word about Taylor Swift
Good news! You can skip right over things you don’t want to read!
posted by Songdog at 6:01 PM on September 16, 2023 [20 favorites]
Good news! You can skip right over things you don’t want to read!
posted by Songdog at 6:01 PM on September 16, 2023 [20 favorites]
I hope nothing shittifies the music industry.
well, they say you can't polish a turd - turns out, you can't shittify one either - it was shitty before radio - before records - before piano rolls - i won't go further back than popular sheet music - but it's basically been shitty since the civil war, at least
posted by pyramid termite at 6:21 PM on September 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
well, they say you can't polish a turd - turns out, you can't shittify one either - it was shitty before radio - before records - before piano rolls - i won't go further back than popular sheet music - but it's basically been shitty since the civil war, at least
posted by pyramid termite at 6:21 PM on September 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
it's basically been shitty since the civil war, at least
Which civil war? If you read the letters of Mozart, Beethoven, and especially Bach, all of them are complaining about the music industry at the time (i.e. the nobles and the church) not giving the creators and performers enough money.
posted by dannyboybell at 6:36 PM on September 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
Which civil war? If you read the letters of Mozart, Beethoven, and especially Bach, all of them are complaining about the music industry at the time (i.e. the nobles and the church) not giving the creators and performers enough money.
posted by dannyboybell at 6:36 PM on September 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
I don't know that Apple bought this label to save on costs, but this whole idea in the comments here that there's no way Apple Music has to worry about profitability is a misapplication of personal common sense to corporate situations, which unfortunately is not how decisions are made in those situations. A company can have billions in the bank and will still lay off staff they bent over backward to recruit last year in order to meet this year's OKR.
Spotify pays 70% of its revenue to rightsholders (mostly labels). I imagine Apple pays something in that ballpark. So, saving that cost is huge, even if they only cared about profit a little bit.
I also think there is a misunderstanding here about the typical streaming user here, whether paying or on a free plan. Yes, classical music fans care about orchestra, conductor, and composer. But the typical user that asks for Mozart may not actually know the name of a specific piece composed by Mozart or even remember what previous Mozart pieces they listened they've heard before sounded like. What these folks actually want is not Mozart, but rather something that feels like that to them. Many of them would be totally fine if a streaming service played something composed by the Apple Music House Composition Team and didn't tell them.
This wouldn't be the first time we've seen this kind of lower-cost substitution. Is it right to do, given that it gives a lot of people what they want — a scratch for a vague itch?
It would be fine if these companies made sophisticated brown noise machines that helped people get through answering customer emails or beat machines that helped with workouts.
But they're not — they're trading on music culture.
Whether these users know artists, culture at-large has told them it is cool to care about music and artists, and for the most part, they are trying to go along with that. They wouldn't be paying/ad-consuming if you told them they were signing up for a Muzak service, even if they might be satisfied if they didn't know what was happening.
Additionally, by exploiting the work of artists and the cultural value built by them, these companies have a responsibility to artists and music culture.
Despite saying that, I know that companies have no legal responsibilities except to shareholders. And of course, the people running these companies also know that. So, they'll keep trying variations of this.
You'd think there could be a win-win situation in which the streaming music companies are profitable and artists get paid more and aren't supplanted by cheap alternatives. That would require raising prices, and whoa, most people just do not want to pay that much for music. I think the average person's spending on music around the year 2000 was about $25. If you ask someone if they value musicians, they'll automatically say yes, but the average streaming music user doesn't love it "$240/year-much".
Getting people to that level is going to be a long-term cultural project, and I don't know how to do it. I suspect it starts with telling listeners more about the artists and where the music comes from and pushing the idea that music is not just a utility. That's swimming against a huge tide, though.
posted by ignignokt at 7:48 PM on September 16, 2023 [4 favorites]
Spotify pays 70% of its revenue to rightsholders (mostly labels). I imagine Apple pays something in that ballpark. So, saving that cost is huge, even if they only cared about profit a little bit.
I also think there is a misunderstanding here about the typical streaming user here, whether paying or on a free plan. Yes, classical music fans care about orchestra, conductor, and composer. But the typical user that asks for Mozart may not actually know the name of a specific piece composed by Mozart or even remember what previous Mozart pieces they listened they've heard before sounded like. What these folks actually want is not Mozart, but rather something that feels like that to them. Many of them would be totally fine if a streaming service played something composed by the Apple Music House Composition Team and didn't tell them.
This wouldn't be the first time we've seen this kind of lower-cost substitution. Is it right to do, given that it gives a lot of people what they want — a scratch for a vague itch?
It would be fine if these companies made sophisticated brown noise machines that helped people get through answering customer emails or beat machines that helped with workouts.
But they're not — they're trading on music culture.
Whether these users know artists, culture at-large has told them it is cool to care about music and artists, and for the most part, they are trying to go along with that. They wouldn't be paying/ad-consuming if you told them they were signing up for a Muzak service, even if they might be satisfied if they didn't know what was happening.
Additionally, by exploiting the work of artists and the cultural value built by them, these companies have a responsibility to artists and music culture.
Despite saying that, I know that companies have no legal responsibilities except to shareholders. And of course, the people running these companies also know that. So, they'll keep trying variations of this.
You'd think there could be a win-win situation in which the streaming music companies are profitable and artists get paid more and aren't supplanted by cheap alternatives. That would require raising prices, and whoa, most people just do not want to pay that much for music. I think the average person's spending on music around the year 2000 was about $25. If you ask someone if they value musicians, they'll automatically say yes, but the average streaming music user doesn't love it "$240/year-much".
Getting people to that level is going to be a long-term cultural project, and I don't know how to do it. I suspect it starts with telling listeners more about the artists and where the music comes from and pushing the idea that music is not just a utility. That's swimming against a huge tide, though.
posted by ignignokt at 7:48 PM on September 16, 2023 [4 favorites]
Maybe a tl;dr of what I just said is "Yeah, companies do shady shit, but also people don't like music as much as they want to believe they do."
posted by ignignokt at 7:49 PM on September 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by ignignokt at 7:49 PM on September 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
@ignignokt
Why link to two articles about spotify if the article is about apple buying a small record label?
posted by oldnumberseven at 7:53 PM on September 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
Why link to two articles about spotify if the article is about apple buying a small record label?
posted by oldnumberseven at 7:53 PM on September 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
He doesn’t understand that Apple Music is losing money on purpose so they can sell more iPhones and iPads. It’s idealized version of a loss leader. Something to get people in the door and keep them in the Apple ecosystem.
So yes it’s losing money and they’re making it up elsewhere.
posted by jmauro at 8:21 PM on September 16, 2023
So yes it’s losing money and they’re making it up elsewhere.
posted by jmauro at 8:21 PM on September 16, 2023
Maybe I'm the only one, but Taylor Swift has been progressively more interesting to me over the past few years, and I think I can recognize literally only 1 of her songs.
posted by bq at 9:01 PM on September 16, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by bq at 9:01 PM on September 16, 2023 [4 favorites]
Apple doesn't just want to make money on hardware, they want to make money in services. The most expensive consumer services they have are the all-you-can-eat big bundles, and those include music. The breadth and quality of those services are a selling point. There's absolute garbage on Apple Music and I'm sure that includes the classical stuff, but selling you muzak/brown noise isn't their schtick. Their schtick, or at least what they're pushing to me as a customer, is "you don't have to buy it, it's all on there". (This is not true, especially not for small local bands I loved from my hometown in my youth, but it's close enough.)
I agree that Apple cares about what streaming services are making. At the same time, there are enough people out there for whom classical music is not fungible that Apple is making a special app for them. This is the exact opposite of what Apple would be doing if they thought classical music didn't matter to their consumers.
posted by gentlyepigrams at 10:07 PM on September 16, 2023
I agree that Apple cares about what streaming services are making. At the same time, there are enough people out there for whom classical music is not fungible that Apple is making a special app for them. This is the exact opposite of what Apple would be doing if they thought classical music didn't matter to their consumers.
posted by gentlyepigrams at 10:07 PM on September 16, 2023
The aggro level here is needlessly high. I really don’t think it is that controversial to say that most people don’t actually value music at more than 5-10$ / month, despite potentially listening to it for several hours a day. I also think that while the article author is perilously close to white-guy-pontification his core argument is sound. It is NOT that folks don’t care which Mozart piece (or even that it is Mozart) they are listening to. Instead, it’s that most folks don’t particularly care WHO is doing the playing. They don’t care that it’s the BSO playing Eine Kleine… they just want to listen to it. This label is putting out complete cycles of Beethoven symphonies, so I bet they were already covering the core hits. From that perspective, why cut a deal with a big name orchestra when a smaller label suffices?
And then why not also appeal to the “snobs” with the separate app? Why can’t it be both? It does undercut the conspiracy aspect of the article, but I think that tear down has been covered well here by other commenters.
posted by getao at 10:13 PM on September 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
And then why not also appeal to the “snobs” with the separate app? Why can’t it be both? It does undercut the conspiracy aspect of the article, but I think that tear down has been covered well here by other commenters.
posted by getao at 10:13 PM on September 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
Mod note: One removed; don't attack other users (FAQ).
posted by taz (staff) at 10:29 PM on September 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by taz (staff) at 10:29 PM on September 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
I hope nothing shittifies the music industry.
Ok you got me I LOL'd
posted by chavenet at 1:05 AM on September 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
Ok you got me I LOL'd
posted by chavenet at 1:05 AM on September 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
Gioia is a good writer on subjects that he is well versed in. He knows jazz and other types of sacred healing music. However sometimes he makes me cringe. He is well meaning. However in some posts he goes off the rails a bit.
posted by DJZouke at 5:31 AM on September 17, 2023
posted by DJZouke at 5:31 AM on September 17, 2023
You can like or hate whatever you choose, of course, but reflexively dunking on Taylor Swift, a generational song writing talent and one of the most succesful women in music history, hews a little too close to all the dismissals of her and her music because it was loved by young women.
posted by signal at 6:16 AM on September 17, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by signal at 6:16 AM on September 17, 2023 [5 favorites]
I like Ted Gioia (very knowledgeable jazz critic with sometimes-interesting perspectives on other things), classical music (especially small groups and more modernist stuff), Taylor Swift (generational songwriting talent pretty much nails it), and giving Apple money (well, as much as it's possible for me to like giving any megacorp money).
I don't think Ted Gioia is any kind of expert on the other three.
posted by box at 6:38 AM on September 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
I don't think Ted Gioia is any kind of expert on the other three.
posted by box at 6:38 AM on September 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
the thing about Apple is: they have a brand, and it's a luxury brand. Apple project an aura of selling a premium, curated experience, where all the choices have been carefully considered and locked in before you got there. They don't do cheap and nasty, they don't do race to the bottom, they will sell phones for an eye-watering amount if necessary. (Sometimes they don't understand a market they're in, which is why Apple Arcade feels cheap and nasty even though, theoretically, it's full of known brands, not realising that in the games market, licensed brands are usually a sign of cheap knockoffs of actually good games.)
All of which is to say: many tech companies are willing to do substitutions for the cheaper option in their recommendation engines, but Apple is less likely than most to do so, because it's a threat to Apple's brand identity if they get caught trying to substitute well-regarded recordings for mediocre ones. It seems more likely to me to be an acquihire.
posted by Merus at 7:29 AM on September 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
All of which is to say: many tech companies are willing to do substitutions for the cheaper option in their recommendation engines, but Apple is less likely than most to do so, because it's a threat to Apple's brand identity if they get caught trying to substitute well-regarded recordings for mediocre ones. It seems more likely to me to be an acquihire.
posted by Merus at 7:29 AM on September 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
One of the more frustrating aspects of this conversation is that the notion that Bis is some off-brand label, which some commenters seem to take as fact. Bis is actually very good, perhaps the *best* indie classical if you balance quality with how prolific they are. (It is second only to Naxos in productivity, and higher in quality IMO. There are of course more niche labels that produce a lot less.)
To prove the point I've put on the Minnesota Orchestra recording of Beethoven's Eroica, one of the releases that Gioia explicitly shits on and one that I'd probably never buy. It's good, a solid 7 out of 10. It could certainly hit a little harder, it's a bit too neat and clean, but you could do a LOT worse. Certainly if this is someone's first or only Eroica it is no tragedy.
(Seriously, here it is. Spotify, Apple Music. I defy *anybody* to explain how this is less than a 7 without going off the deep end. A critic may pan it because it competes with recordings that already exist, the 9's and 10's that they already know and love, but that is not the same as being shitty.)
Gioia started with "corporations are bad" and "I am an expert" and spun the rest out of whole cloth.
posted by anhedonic at 7:44 AM on September 17, 2023 [8 favorites]
To prove the point I've put on the Minnesota Orchestra recording of Beethoven's Eroica, one of the releases that Gioia explicitly shits on and one that I'd probably never buy. It's good, a solid 7 out of 10. It could certainly hit a little harder, it's a bit too neat and clean, but you could do a LOT worse. Certainly if this is someone's first or only Eroica it is no tragedy.
(Seriously, here it is. Spotify, Apple Music. I defy *anybody* to explain how this is less than a 7 without going off the deep end. A critic may pan it because it competes with recordings that already exist, the 9's and 10's that they already know and love, but that is not the same as being shitty.)
Gioia started with "corporations are bad" and "I am an expert" and spun the rest out of whole cloth.
posted by anhedonic at 7:44 AM on September 17, 2023 [8 favorites]
At the same time, there are enough people out there for whom classical music is not fungible that Apple is making a special app for them. This is the exact opposite of what Apple would be doing if they thought classical music didn't matter to their consumers.
This point should be more obvious in this conversation. Apple just spent a lot of money--and took a lot of time--to create a streaming classical music app. Many of the great things about that app are under the hood, like massive clean-up and new consistency in classical music files' metadata, and it's an app that lets a complete and total music snob like me search by conductor, or orchestra, or whether it's on period or modern instruments, etc. (I even wish it would let me search which published edition of the music was used for the recording--no Beethoven unless it's Barenreiter! And that Gioia compares any Beethoven cycle to the monumentally awful and ham-fisted von Karajan recordings is hilarious, he must not actually be a fan of Beethoven's symphonies if he listens to those versions. And to assume that the Minnesota Orchestra--with any conductor--wouldn't turn in a first-rate Beethoven cycle means that Ted is not keeping up with just how fucking good American orchestras are these days.)
There is no way Apple would have done all of that if their plan was to then obliterate it all by serving up cheaper, "generic" recordings of standard repertoire. Literally the existence of Apple Classical as a (really good) app puts the lie to Gioia's paranoid perspective here. My foremost problem with his framing (and his insights IME are actually more on point than not) is that it's always panicked and breathless about the collapse of music--not just industry, but somehow music as a creative medium in our culture. And as mentioned above, there has never been a point in history where musicians had some kind of fair, steady industry that provided regular employment; working as a professional artist has always been capricious.
posted by LooseFilter at 8:00 AM on September 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
This point should be more obvious in this conversation. Apple just spent a lot of money--and took a lot of time--to create a streaming classical music app. Many of the great things about that app are under the hood, like massive clean-up and new consistency in classical music files' metadata, and it's an app that lets a complete and total music snob like me search by conductor, or orchestra, or whether it's on period or modern instruments, etc. (I even wish it would let me search which published edition of the music was used for the recording--no Beethoven unless it's Barenreiter! And that Gioia compares any Beethoven cycle to the monumentally awful and ham-fisted von Karajan recordings is hilarious, he must not actually be a fan of Beethoven's symphonies if he listens to those versions. And to assume that the Minnesota Orchestra--with any conductor--wouldn't turn in a first-rate Beethoven cycle means that Ted is not keeping up with just how fucking good American orchestras are these days.)
There is no way Apple would have done all of that if their plan was to then obliterate it all by serving up cheaper, "generic" recordings of standard repertoire. Literally the existence of Apple Classical as a (really good) app puts the lie to Gioia's paranoid perspective here. My foremost problem with his framing (and his insights IME are actually more on point than not) is that it's always panicked and breathless about the collapse of music--not just industry, but somehow music as a creative medium in our culture. And as mentioned above, there has never been a point in history where musicians had some kind of fair, steady industry that provided regular employment; working as a professional artist has always been capricious.
posted by LooseFilter at 8:00 AM on September 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
This post reminds me of my and boyfriend's longtime habit of, whenever the Radetzky March comes on the radio, singing along with it using the lyrics, "Apple Crap, Apple Crap, Apple Crap Crap Crap."
posted by JanetLand at 9:40 AM on September 17, 2023
posted by JanetLand at 9:40 AM on September 17, 2023
someone who places great weight on aesthetic distinctions that are meaningless to most people
Distinctions between different recordings / conductors / orchestras / performers are quite meaningful to all but fairly superficial consumers of classical music. Not many opera fans are are going out and buying just any old recording of Tosca, for example. I don’t understand how preferring the Milanov / Björling / Warren recording over the Caballé / Carreras / Fisher-Dieskau recording, or thinking of the former as the “best” recording of Tosca would make one a snob. Plenty of people would find the aesthetic distinctions between Drake and Jay-Z meaningless, or between John Coltrane and Art Pepper, or between the Leonard Cohen, k.d. lang and Jeff Buckley versions of “Hallelujah.” Is someone who prefers Jay-Z or Coltrane or Leonard Cohen a snob?
The importance of soloists, conductors, orchestras, dates of live performances, etc. to consumers of classical music is one of the things that makes having an app or service for classical music challenging. Because these things are important to listeners.
posted by slkinsey at 9:47 AM on September 17, 2023
Distinctions between different recordings / conductors / orchestras / performers are quite meaningful to all but fairly superficial consumers of classical music. Not many opera fans are are going out and buying just any old recording of Tosca, for example. I don’t understand how preferring the Milanov / Björling / Warren recording over the Caballé / Carreras / Fisher-Dieskau recording, or thinking of the former as the “best” recording of Tosca would make one a snob. Plenty of people would find the aesthetic distinctions between Drake and Jay-Z meaningless, or between John Coltrane and Art Pepper, or between the Leonard Cohen, k.d. lang and Jeff Buckley versions of “Hallelujah.” Is someone who prefers Jay-Z or Coltrane or Leonard Cohen a snob?
The importance of soloists, conductors, orchestras, dates of live performances, etc. to consumers of classical music is one of the things that makes having an app or service for classical music challenging. Because these things are important to listeners.
posted by slkinsey at 9:47 AM on September 17, 2023
And, in this case, it’s worth reading all the way through to the shocking last paragraph.
Spoiler: the last paragraph is not shocking.
posted by kirkaracha at 10:01 AM on September 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
Spoiler: the last paragraph is not shocking.
posted by kirkaracha at 10:01 AM on September 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
Apple just spent a lot of money--and took a lot of time--to create a streaming classical music app.
Apple is a big company now and they have hired a lot of ex-IBM staff over the years, it seems entirely likely that two different teams within Apple are coming at this from completely different angles, one catering to dedicated listeners and another just hoovering up IP they think it will turn a profit.
posted by Lanark at 10:13 AM on September 17, 2023
Apple is a big company now and they have hired a lot of ex-IBM staff over the years, it seems entirely likely that two different teams within Apple are coming at this from completely different angles, one catering to dedicated listeners and another just hoovering up IP they think it will turn a profit.
posted by Lanark at 10:13 AM on September 17, 2023
It is NOT that folks don’t care which Mozart piece (or even that it is Mozart) they are listening to. Instead, it’s that most folks don’t particularly care WHO is doing the playing. They don’t care that it’s the BSO playing Eine Kleine… they just want to listen to it. This label is putting out complete cycles of Beethoven symphonies, so I bet they were already covering the core hits. From that perspective, why cut a deal with a big name orchestra when a smaller label suffices?
This was my reading of his point, too, but then - so what? Maybe it would be a weaker “so what” without the context of Apple’s demonstrated interest in also catering to the serious classical listener, since then it would be easier to buy into the implication that they might want to drop all but the cheapest recordings to license. Since they do seem to be interested in that market, though, it feels like he’s treating perfectly respectable second tier orchestras as merely an inferior substitute for the “brand names.” I don’t see why it’s inherently a problem if the Minnesota Orchestra collects some streaming scraps off the “just want a little classical in the background” listener instead of the Berliner Philharmoniker.
posted by atoxyl at 10:47 AM on September 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
This was my reading of his point, too, but then - so what? Maybe it would be a weaker “so what” without the context of Apple’s demonstrated interest in also catering to the serious classical listener, since then it would be easier to buy into the implication that they might want to drop all but the cheapest recordings to license. Since they do seem to be interested in that market, though, it feels like he’s treating perfectly respectable second tier orchestras as merely an inferior substitute for the “brand names.” I don’t see why it’s inherently a problem if the Minnesota Orchestra collects some streaming scraps off the “just want a little classical in the background” listener instead of the Berliner Philharmoniker.
posted by atoxyl at 10:47 AM on September 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
I touched on it earlier but I find it interesting that Gioia and pretty much everybody in this thread are focused on Apple's intentions around streaming and not about what happens to BIS Records' physical distribution.
According to Discogs, BIS was still pressing its releases on physical media (SACD).
For me, streaming is still a second-class citizen when it comes to collecting music. If I love an album, I buy it on vinyl or CD[1] even though I tend to consume music digitally most of the time.
I can think of a slew of albums I love that never made it to digital/streaming, have been altered in the process, or have missing tracks due to rights, or are in label limbo. Is Apple going to preserve physical releases or is this another nail in that coffin?
[1] If I buy on Bandcamp with digital downloads, I prefer vinyl but only if it's not far more expensive than CD. A lot of the vinyl pressings from Bandcamp are just so-so in terms of sleeve quality and liner notes, but I like the format. If it's a lot more than CD, I go CD.
posted by jzb at 12:14 PM on September 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
According to Discogs, BIS was still pressing its releases on physical media (SACD).
For me, streaming is still a second-class citizen when it comes to collecting music. If I love an album, I buy it on vinyl or CD[1] even though I tend to consume music digitally most of the time.
I can think of a slew of albums I love that never made it to digital/streaming, have been altered in the process, or have missing tracks due to rights, or are in label limbo. Is Apple going to preserve physical releases or is this another nail in that coffin?
[1] If I buy on Bandcamp with digital downloads, I prefer vinyl but only if it's not far more expensive than CD. A lot of the vinyl pressings from Bandcamp are just so-so in terms of sleeve quality and liner notes, but I like the format. If it's a lot more than CD, I go CD.
posted by jzb at 12:14 PM on September 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
It was worth waiting for. His letter to Taylor Swift is ... rather good.
For the first time in ages, the superstar musician at the top of the hierarchy is brave, independent, generous, and willing to challenge the system. You stand up for artist rights. You stand up for live music. You stand up for people. And you do all this with a grass roots power base that nobody can match—no politician, no billionaire technocrat, and certainly no other performer.
Musicians have never had that kind of visionary leader.
posted by chavenet at 12:36 PM on September 17, 2023
For the first time in ages, the superstar musician at the top of the hierarchy is brave, independent, generous, and willing to challenge the system. You stand up for artist rights. You stand up for live music. You stand up for people. And you do all this with a grass roots power base that nobody can match—no politician, no billionaire technocrat, and certainly no other performer.
Musicians have never had that kind of visionary leader.
posted by chavenet at 12:36 PM on September 17, 2023
Didn't Apple buy a standalone Classical Streaming App Primephonic recently, because they tried doing their own and it was a failure? Because doing a search for Classical Music is notoriously hard, especially for people who really are into Classical and know exactly what they want. Which is why Apple Classical is a standalone App, rather than a part of the regular Apple Music offering. Now they are adding a label to their offering. It just looks like a progression rather than anything nefarious to me.
And this is condescending nonsense.
But how many music fans searching for Beethoven or Mozart on streaming are picky about conductors and orchestras? If the first search results are the Minnesota Orchestra are they really going to dig deeper to find the Berlin Philharmonic?
People listening to Classical on the dedicated Classical App surely are searching for specific performances. That is the whole reason for the existence of the App as a separate thing from the regular Music App.
posted by indianbadger1 at 2:31 PM on September 17, 2023
And this is condescending nonsense.
But how many music fans searching for Beethoven or Mozart on streaming are picky about conductors and orchestras? If the first search results are the Minnesota Orchestra are they really going to dig deeper to find the Berlin Philharmonic?
People listening to Classical on the dedicated Classical App surely are searching for specific performances. That is the whole reason for the existence of the App as a separate thing from the regular Music App.
posted by indianbadger1 at 2:31 PM on September 17, 2023
I think it's super cool that Apple has a new policy of launching special apps to stream specific, underserved genres of music.
I look foward to beta testing the upcoming Apple Music Djent and Apple Music Reggaeton apps.
posted by signal at 2:59 PM on September 17, 2023
I look foward to beta testing the upcoming Apple Music Djent and Apple Music Reggaeton apps.
posted by signal at 2:59 PM on September 17, 2023
I don’t understand how preferring the Milanov / Björling / Warren recording over the Caballé / Carreras / Fisher-Dieskau recording, or thinking of the former as the “best” recording of Tosca would make one a snob.
Thanks for continuing to make my case.
Seriously, it's absolutely fine that you care so much! But most people don't. And that's fine too.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 4:33 PM on September 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
Thanks for continuing to make my case.
Seriously, it's absolutely fine that you care so much! But most people don't. And that's fine too.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 4:33 PM on September 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
I know it's generally a bad idea to read the comments, but this nailed what I was thinking while reading the article:
I don't know anything much about classical music, but I also look forward to Apple releasing dedicated apps for specific niches of music, so I don't have to work so hard to make sure I only listen to Pink Floyd tracks that are from the correct album.
posted by dg at 9:59 PM on September 17, 2023
“Theory #2: Apple despises music and musicians.”Like any other large company, tech or otherwise, the only things Apple cares about are profit and control (then only because control often leads to greater and more secure profit). They obviously saw a way to increase one or the other and, being Apple, the cost doesn't really matter too much, they just vacuum up companies that present some kind of opportunity or that get in their way without even thinking too hard.
This flatters both a) musicians (and by extension writers, other artists, etc.) and b) everyone who cares about the arts, any art.
Apple, Amazon and their fellow tech lords don’t despise us. They’re utterly indifferent. They don’t care. What’s more, it rarely, if ever, occurs to them that that that might even be an option.
I don't know anything much about classical music, but I also look forward to Apple releasing dedicated apps for specific niches of music, so I don't have to work so hard to make sure I only listen to Pink Floyd tracks that are from the correct album.
posted by dg at 9:59 PM on September 17, 2023
most people don't
If by “most people” you mean “most listeners of music regardless of genre” you’re probably correct. If by “most people” you mean “most regular listeners of classical music” you are clearly incorrect. That you continue making an assertion that is so plainly absurd to anyone who listens to classical music beyond the most superficial “background music” level just demonstrates that you are not one of those people. The whole reason there is a separate app for classical is precisely because classical listeners do care about which recording they listen to.
posted by slkinsey at 4:16 AM on September 18, 2023 [5 favorites]
If by “most people” you mean “most listeners of music regardless of genre” you’re probably correct. If by “most people” you mean “most regular listeners of classical music” you are clearly incorrect. That you continue making an assertion that is so plainly absurd to anyone who listens to classical music beyond the most superficial “background music” level just demonstrates that you are not one of those people. The whole reason there is a separate app for classical is precisely because classical listeners do care about which recording they listen to.
posted by slkinsey at 4:16 AM on September 18, 2023 [5 favorites]
What these folks actually want is not Mozart, but rather something that feels like that to them.
is this about the time I googled "bardcore except it's like, math rock" & the response was "what you want is called baroque music, just do a search for that you dumb piece of shit, I cannot even, I'm going back to bed"
posted by taquito sunrise at 7:56 AM on September 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
is this about the time I googled "bardcore except it's like, math rock" & the response was "what you want is called baroque music, just do a search for that you dumb piece of shit, I cannot even, I'm going back to bed"
posted by taquito sunrise at 7:56 AM on September 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
Artifice_Eternity and I may be having a disconnect and talking about somewhat different things. I don't think listeners of classical music selectively seek and choose recordings that are considered "the best" by some sort of general consensus.
But that doesn't mean they are indifferent to conductor, orchestra, soloist, etc. To continue my earlier example, my favorite recording of Tosca has Zinka Milanov, Jussi Björling and Leonard Warren. This is for a few reasons, but first among them is that I care most about the tenor, and Björling is one of my favorite tenors. One can also generalize performance styles of the tenor role into two camps: (i) lyrical, beautiful, elegant singing as exemplified by Björling, and (ii) visceral, exciting, inelegant singing as exemplified by Franco Corelli. I prefer the first camp, but I like both, have recordings by both, and attend performances sung by tenors in either camp. When I'm going to listen to Tosca, I am likely to choose a recording with a tenor in whichever camp I'm interested in hearing at that moment. Maybe it's Björling one day but another day it's Corelli. Other listeners really like Maria Callas and would choose the 1953 recording of Tosca she did with Giuseppe di Stefano and Tito Gobbi. I am indifferent to Callas and not a fan of di Stefano, so that is not a recording I would purchase or select for listening. Plenty of people might consider that Callas recording to be the best, but I couldn't care less because that opinion is based on criteria that aren't particularly important to me.
These are the sorts of things that listeners of opera most definitely care about. One of the features of classical music is that choices in casting, orchestra, conductor, etc. are what differentiate one recording or performance from another--and those choices can make a huge difference. This is why it's not unusual for someone to own multiple recordings of one piece. Because you already know you like the piece (or the composer or genre or whatever) you're going to choose a recording based on who the performers are. A performance conducted by Nicolaus Harnancourt or Christopher Hogwood with "historical performance practice" and "period appropriate instruments" will be very different from one conducted by Riccardo Muti or Georg Solti in the modern style with modern instruments. Someone may like one style and hate the other.
I can't say that I know anyone who cares about classical music--and I know a lot of these people as a result of my professional background--but is indifferent as to the performers and recordings they listen to. Again, this is what has made most music apps less than ideal for classical music. For example, most listeners would love to have separate fields for each soloist, for the conductor and for the orchestra--or, as the case may be, for the soloist and the pianist or the name of the string quartet or whatever.
posted by slkinsey at 8:03 AM on September 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
But that doesn't mean they are indifferent to conductor, orchestra, soloist, etc. To continue my earlier example, my favorite recording of Tosca has Zinka Milanov, Jussi Björling and Leonard Warren. This is for a few reasons, but first among them is that I care most about the tenor, and Björling is one of my favorite tenors. One can also generalize performance styles of the tenor role into two camps: (i) lyrical, beautiful, elegant singing as exemplified by Björling, and (ii) visceral, exciting, inelegant singing as exemplified by Franco Corelli. I prefer the first camp, but I like both, have recordings by both, and attend performances sung by tenors in either camp. When I'm going to listen to Tosca, I am likely to choose a recording with a tenor in whichever camp I'm interested in hearing at that moment. Maybe it's Björling one day but another day it's Corelli. Other listeners really like Maria Callas and would choose the 1953 recording of Tosca she did with Giuseppe di Stefano and Tito Gobbi. I am indifferent to Callas and not a fan of di Stefano, so that is not a recording I would purchase or select for listening. Plenty of people might consider that Callas recording to be the best, but I couldn't care less because that opinion is based on criteria that aren't particularly important to me.
These are the sorts of things that listeners of opera most definitely care about. One of the features of classical music is that choices in casting, orchestra, conductor, etc. are what differentiate one recording or performance from another--and those choices can make a huge difference. This is why it's not unusual for someone to own multiple recordings of one piece. Because you already know you like the piece (or the composer or genre or whatever) you're going to choose a recording based on who the performers are. A performance conducted by Nicolaus Harnancourt or Christopher Hogwood with "historical performance practice" and "period appropriate instruments" will be very different from one conducted by Riccardo Muti or Georg Solti in the modern style with modern instruments. Someone may like one style and hate the other.
I can't say that I know anyone who cares about classical music--and I know a lot of these people as a result of my professional background--but is indifferent as to the performers and recordings they listen to. Again, this is what has made most music apps less than ideal for classical music. For example, most listeners would love to have separate fields for each soloist, for the conductor and for the orchestra--or, as the case may be, for the soloist and the pianist or the name of the string quartet or whatever.
posted by slkinsey at 8:03 AM on September 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
Folks, opera is qualitatively different from orchestral music. I'm not an aficionado and even I can tell when it's Pavarotti because human voices are recognizable.
posted by bq at 9:12 AM on September 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by bq at 9:12 AM on September 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
Listeners are also likely to have preferences among, say, the Kleiber/Vienna Philharmonic, Bernstein/Boston Symphony, and Hogewood/Academy of Ancient Music recordings of Beethoven 7. Those are pretty different renditions. They're unlikely to be completely indifferent to which recording is playing, and at the least would like to know which one it is. From what I can tell, Apple's classical app is designed with this in mind: "The Apple Music Classical interface ensures listeners always know who and what they’re hearing, with everything laid out at a glance: work name, orchestra, conductor, contributing artists, and even year of recording. And when it comes to curating a personal library, Apple Music Classical lets listeners add more than just albums, tracks, playlists, and artists — it also supports uniquely classical categories such as works, composers, and recordings."
Bit of a bummer that it seems like you have to subscribe. I'd love to have an app like that for purchased classical music, but not much interest in subscribing.
posted by slkinsey at 2:28 PM on September 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
Bit of a bummer that it seems like you have to subscribe. I'd love to have an app like that for purchased classical music, but not much interest in subscribing.
posted by slkinsey at 2:28 PM on September 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
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I think we're beginning to see that being a streaming service really isn't profitable, whether you own the content or not. If it were, Spotify would actually be profitable and all the video streaming services wouldn't be breaking the financial backs of every company where they have become central.
But for Apple, I'm not sure either video or audio streaming is really a backbone of the company. Similar for Amazon. They're in a different category.
posted by hippybear at 1:04 PM on September 16, 2023 [3 favorites]