"In a world of marks and cons, we were … complete fucking idiots."
October 10, 2023 7:36 AM Subscribe
Zelle sucks, specifically because of the lack of protections and the inherently and intentionally user-hostile approach to fraud. I refuse to use it.
posted by theclaw at 7:58 AM on October 10, 2023 [12 favorites]
posted by theclaw at 7:58 AM on October 10, 2023 [12 favorites]
I don't use payment apps to pay for services rendered unless a) the amount is small and b) the person that did the work is standing right there and confirms they got the money. Otherwise I write checks like it's 1995.
posted by rhymedirective at 8:00 AM on October 10, 2023 [28 favorites]
posted by rhymedirective at 8:00 AM on October 10, 2023 [28 favorites]
We don't have Zelle and Venmo up here in Canada, so this article confirms that yes, I do not want to use those services even if they make their way up here. (We have Interac for e-transfers; I'm sure it's probably just as easy to use that for scams too.)
posted by Kitteh at 8:03 AM on October 10, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by Kitteh at 8:03 AM on October 10, 2023 [6 favorites]
I would have assumed that Interac, because it (I think?) uses the ACH system, would have the same protections as a bank transfer. But I would have assumed a payment app owned by banks would too so what do I know.
Anyway this article is tremendously well-written.
posted by joannemerriam at 8:06 AM on October 10, 2023 [5 favorites]
Anyway this article is tremendously well-written.
posted by joannemerriam at 8:06 AM on October 10, 2023 [5 favorites]
Yeah, we recently found out--via a FB marketplace scam--that Zelle has zero protection, which was just baffling. How can they have nothing to protect people on either side of the transaction? At least we know for the future, if a seller insists on Zelle rather than PayPal or something, to run away fast.
posted by mittens at 8:07 AM on October 10, 2023 [16 favorites]
posted by mittens at 8:07 AM on October 10, 2023 [16 favorites]
Kitteh, Interac is at least owned by the banks so I *think* that you should have the same protection as if you wrote a check. (Not 100% sure). On Preview, what joannemerriam said.
On a somewhat related note, I wrote a cheque for a contractor the other day and put 2013 in for the year. I think that makes me officially old.
posted by sauril at 8:08 AM on October 10, 2023 [7 favorites]
On a somewhat related note, I wrote a cheque for a contractor the other day and put 2013 in for the year. I think that makes me officially old.
posted by sauril at 8:08 AM on October 10, 2023 [7 favorites]
All it takes is one fake email "Oh, please send the money to this account instead"
We went through a house selling and buying process in the last year and every real estate agent and bank involved had multiple warnings about this. We had to sign a bunch of documents saying they told us about the risk. They sent secure emails and pieces of paper with wire info. They called us a couple times to tell us. And then they wouldn't do anything unless we called and confirmed the wire information (but told us not to use google to get their phone number; only call the phone number on one of the disclosures they sent us earlier).
I appreciated the warnings, and I'm sure people still get scammed during the wiring process, but it made the whole process extra scary. Of course it didn't help that it takes a few hours to a day to receive the money on the other side. And there's no way to reverse it if it goes wrong.
posted by msbrauer at 8:08 AM on October 10, 2023 [29 favorites]
We went through a house selling and buying process in the last year and every real estate agent and bank involved had multiple warnings about this. We had to sign a bunch of documents saying they told us about the risk. They sent secure emails and pieces of paper with wire info. They called us a couple times to tell us. And then they wouldn't do anything unless we called and confirmed the wire information (but told us not to use google to get their phone number; only call the phone number on one of the disclosures they sent us earlier).
I appreciated the warnings, and I'm sure people still get scammed during the wiring process, but it made the whole process extra scary. Of course it didn't help that it takes a few hours to a day to receive the money on the other side. And there's no way to reverse it if it goes wrong.
posted by msbrauer at 8:08 AM on October 10, 2023 [29 favorites]
Thx, joannemerriam and sauril! Interac is part of your bank account so I guess that would mean some better protection. I use it to pay my therapist and my tattoo artist. No issues so far.
posted by Kitteh at 8:11 AM on October 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Kitteh at 8:11 AM on October 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
I think there's also a bit of misunderstanding what Zelle is. It's NOT meant as a business payment system. It's a "money transfer system" between Zelle-enrolled bank users. Like, I want to send money to my mom in a different state, even if she's on a different bank, I can still use Zelle (as long as her bank's also a Zell member), and the money goes through almost immediately.
However, nowadays, people expect it to be just like Venmo or Cashapp or Paypal... Instant money transfers.
posted by kschang at 8:12 AM on October 10, 2023 [7 favorites]
However, nowadays, people expect it to be just like Venmo or Cashapp or Paypal... Instant money transfers.
posted by kschang at 8:12 AM on October 10, 2023 [7 favorites]
"This time we paid by check."
...and undoubtedly will expect the bank to pay the money to them if Gary cleans out his account and disappears.
The author seems to think that the bank should cover his losses from getting scammed. How exactly would that work? "Oh, our customer got taken in by a scam so we're giving them $30,000 out of our own pocket!"
If they had figured it out up front and the bank were in a position to stop or reverse the transaction, that's one thing. But claiming you got scammed and getting free money would be a great scam in itself.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 8:18 AM on October 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
...and undoubtedly will expect the bank to pay the money to them if Gary cleans out his account and disappears.
The author seems to think that the bank should cover his losses from getting scammed. How exactly would that work? "Oh, our customer got taken in by a scam so we're giving them $30,000 out of our own pocket!"
If they had figured it out up front and the bank were in a position to stop or reverse the transaction, that's one thing. But claiming you got scammed and getting free money would be a great scam in itself.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 8:18 AM on October 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
I mean, if you run a verification transaction where you send someone a dollar as a test and then confirm that they've gotten it (and make sure you're really talking to the person who you think you're talking to), it works fine. But it's all pretty user-hostile and in a way that makes it easier for things to be insecure.
posted by rmd1023 at 8:19 AM on October 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by rmd1023 at 8:19 AM on October 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
I had some degree of sympathy for the author until this point:
The problem wasn't that they were idiots. The problem is that they came into this with a corrupt mindset and that caused them to be caught by corrupt practices. To quote a line from Bojack Horseman, "when you're looking through rose-tinted glasses...all the red flags look like just...flags."
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:25 AM on October 10, 2023 [53 favorites]
So yes, we fell victim to some highly suspect shit. But let me ask you this: If your contractor seems like they're doing something a bit dodgy, would that really surprise you? Don't you kind of assume your contractor has angles? Don't you suspect that every contractor is subtly fleecing you, while also subtly fleecing the people who work for him or her, in a velvet-gloved mafioso kind of way that everyone has tacitly approved? Isn't our national OK-ness with Donald Trump a subconscious admission that we assume everyone in the building trades is on the grift? And isn't what a lot of us actually look for in a contractor someone who's a little suspect? Who can maybe find a way to not have to get the permits? Who's maybe going to pay some folks under the table? Would you bat an eye if your contractor asked you to make your check out to his wife instead of him (which has happened to me)? Or if he told you to just Zelle the money to Personal Breezy?Why yes, I would bat an eye when a contractor asks to be paid in any other way than through their corporation (preferably through an escrow account to protect both of us.) Or when they're demanding that the payments be broken up in amounts that suspiciously look like they're designed to slip under FinCEN. Paying people under the table is right the fuck out. And business emails using "@gmail.com" ping my radar hard.
The problem wasn't that they were idiots. The problem is that they came into this with a corrupt mindset and that caused them to be caught by corrupt practices. To quote a line from Bojack Horseman, "when you're looking through rose-tinted glasses...all the red flags look like just...flags."
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:25 AM on October 10, 2023 [53 favorites]
This sort of scam also goes on through the UK banking system. The advice is generally to send a £1 first to check its going to the right people and only then send the full amount. Of course for the guy in the article this would probably have meant calling the scammer pretending to be the company and getting confirmation to keep sending more money. It also can help to avoid mistakes with account numbers to do this for big purchases. Getting money straight back if you send it to the wrong account is not straightforward if the recipient decides to be a dick about it.
posted by biffa at 8:27 AM on October 10, 2023
posted by biffa at 8:27 AM on October 10, 2023
I don't use payment apps to pay for services rendered unless a) the amount is small and b) the person that did the work is standing right there and confirms they got the money. Otherwise I write checks like it's 1995.
I have been feeling like the only person in the world who still writes checks, though that's mainly because I don't like throwing my ACH info around online and there's a startling number of places this year that tried to charge me for the benefit of paying with a credit card. (I understand they're just passing the credit card fee along, but the alternative is my sending them a paper check in the mail and them depositing it. Is hiring someone to deal with that really cheaper than eating the credit card fee?)
One of the stressful things about transferring large sums of money is that we can now all do it from our couches or whatever. I've done large wire transfers from my bank and from my couch, and honestly I don't think doing from the bank helped much (the tellers actually screwed up a couple of times, which I caught before signing), but psychologically it feels safer to have another person fussing over the transaction. I would say that scammers are also taking of advantage of everyone's dislike of making a phone call, but I do feel rough for the couple because they apparently put a lot of effort into communicating with this guy. You can do everything right online and still only be as safe as someone else's computer...
It feels like one of the ever-present problems in America is that our regulatory/enforcement systems seriously lag behind lived reality, and the main way we deal with this is by individually suing bad actors or giving lots of bad press when a company doesn't work out for us. So. I guess everyone make sure your friends have read this?
posted by grandiloquiet at 8:29 AM on October 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
I have been feeling like the only person in the world who still writes checks, though that's mainly because I don't like throwing my ACH info around online and there's a startling number of places this year that tried to charge me for the benefit of paying with a credit card. (I understand they're just passing the credit card fee along, but the alternative is my sending them a paper check in the mail and them depositing it. Is hiring someone to deal with that really cheaper than eating the credit card fee?)
One of the stressful things about transferring large sums of money is that we can now all do it from our couches or whatever. I've done large wire transfers from my bank and from my couch, and honestly I don't think doing from the bank helped much (the tellers actually screwed up a couple of times, which I caught before signing), but psychologically it feels safer to have another person fussing over the transaction. I would say that scammers are also taking of advantage of everyone's dislike of making a phone call, but I do feel rough for the couple because they apparently put a lot of effort into communicating with this guy. You can do everything right online and still only be as safe as someone else's computer...
It feels like one of the ever-present problems in America is that our regulatory/enforcement systems seriously lag behind lived reality, and the main way we deal with this is by individually suing bad actors or giving lots of bad press when a company doesn't work out for us. So. I guess everyone make sure your friends have read this?
posted by grandiloquiet at 8:29 AM on October 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
I came to find this LITERALLY after reading a column by a childhood friend about how he got caught by the "I'm your boss, can you run and get some gift cards for me and text me the numbers" scam. I also got one of the initial texts myself (but as soon as they said "gift cards" I started talking to them about llamas and that made them shut up).
It seems to be in the ether right now.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:32 AM on October 10, 2023 [6 favorites]
It seems to be in the ether right now.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:32 AM on October 10, 2023 [6 favorites]
The problem is that they came into this with a corrupt mindset and that caused them to be caught by corrupt practices.
Blaming the victims of crimes for their lack of moral purity is never the right thing.
posted by mhoye at 8:41 AM on October 10, 2023 [11 favorites]
Blaming the victims of crimes for their lack of moral purity is never the right thing.
posted by mhoye at 8:41 AM on October 10, 2023 [11 favorites]
>> as soon as they said "gift cards" I started talking to them about llamas and that made them shut up
I send the lyrics to Rick Astley's "Never Gonna Give You Up" until they block me.
posted by Molesome at 8:45 AM on October 10, 2023 [12 favorites]
I send the lyrics to Rick Astley's "Never Gonna Give You Up" until they block me.
posted by Molesome at 8:45 AM on October 10, 2023 [12 favorites]
large wire transfers from my bank and from my couch, and honestly I don't think doing from the bank helped much
Aaaghh, so much this!
Having to choose between being terrified at home, triple-quadruple checking everything, or deciding to be profoundly concerned that perhaps the bank teller is an idiot because they've mistyped something three times now despite me giving them a very carefully vetted typed set of instructions.
I dunno, credit cards have that "transfer one cent to see if it works" thing, why wire transfers can't do that is beyond me. I mean straight-up set the system so that one penny wire transfers are always accepted, and then always sent back to the originator or something.
Nobody wire-transfers one cent, and this way you'd be able to make goddamn sure your transfer hit the right account at the right bank. But noooooo, instead they build a whole new system that takes a percentage cut, as though I'm gonna move tens of thousands of dollars across any system that takes a percentage?
posted by aramaic at 8:53 AM on October 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
Aaaghh, so much this!
Having to choose between being terrified at home, triple-quadruple checking everything, or deciding to be profoundly concerned that perhaps the bank teller is an idiot because they've mistyped something three times now despite me giving them a very carefully vetted typed set of instructions.
I dunno, credit cards have that "transfer one cent to see if it works" thing, why wire transfers can't do that is beyond me. I mean straight-up set the system so that one penny wire transfers are always accepted, and then always sent back to the originator or something.
Nobody wire-transfers one cent, and this way you'd be able to make goddamn sure your transfer hit the right account at the right bank. But noooooo, instead they build a whole new system that takes a percentage cut, as though I'm gonna move tens of thousands of dollars across any system that takes a percentage?
posted by aramaic at 8:53 AM on October 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
My bank limits Zelle transactions to $500/day. This is annoying, but I can't deny that it has its advantages.
I found my sympathy for the author fluctuating, tbh. One of the last lines is "We saved for another two years and hired Gary, who never apologized, and never seemed even slightly perturbed that someone had stolen our money by pretending to be him."
How is this Gary's fault? Someone hacked his email address. What does he have to apologize for? He was almost entirely uninvolved in the scam. You could argue that Gary should have changed his password more often, but it's possible (and not even that hard) to fake an email from "garyspools@aol.com" without hacking the account (you can usually spot this by looking at the email headers, but no one does that). Maybe that's even what happened. The author's implication that Gary did something wrong rubs me the wrong way.
Zelle is doing what Zelle does. If you want frictionless transactions, you get risk. You can reduce the risk by increasing the friction.
posted by It's Never Lurgi at 8:54 AM on October 10, 2023 [10 favorites]
I found my sympathy for the author fluctuating, tbh. One of the last lines is "We saved for another two years and hired Gary, who never apologized, and never seemed even slightly perturbed that someone had stolen our money by pretending to be him."
How is this Gary's fault? Someone hacked his email address. What does he have to apologize for? He was almost entirely uninvolved in the scam. You could argue that Gary should have changed his password more often, but it's possible (and not even that hard) to fake an email from "garyspools@aol.com" without hacking the account (you can usually spot this by looking at the email headers, but no one does that). Maybe that's even what happened. The author's implication that Gary did something wrong rubs me the wrong way.
Zelle is doing what Zelle does. If you want frictionless transactions, you get risk. You can reduce the risk by increasing the friction.
posted by It's Never Lurgi at 8:54 AM on October 10, 2023 [10 favorites]
I've done large wire transfers from my bank and from my couch, and honestly I don't think doing from the bank helped much (the tellers actually screwed up a couple of times, which I caught before signing), but psychologically it feels safer to have another person fussing over the transaction. I
The last time I sent a wire transfer, a fairly large one (nearly $20k), the teller inverted a couple numbers in the receiving account, and I didn't catch it in my review. Very fortunately, it bounced back since there was no matching account; had the reversed numbers been correct for someone's account, I'm not sure that I would have had any recourse.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:56 AM on October 10, 2023
The last time I sent a wire transfer, a fairly large one (nearly $20k), the teller inverted a couple numbers in the receiving account, and I didn't catch it in my review. Very fortunately, it bounced back since there was no matching account; had the reversed numbers been correct for someone's account, I'm not sure that I would have had any recourse.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:56 AM on October 10, 2023
I work for a company in this space, and the answer to this question:
How can they have nothing to protect people on either side of the transaction?
...is kinda complicated, in a way that is directly connected to the way our financial world is structured to funnel money to large central players.
The reason they have nothing to protect people on either side of the transaction is also the major selling point for Zelle and for other previous new market entrants: there are no transaction fees.
There are good reasons for wanting to provide a service that has no fees. This is appealing and makes sense to people for day-to-day transactions with a high degree of trust. But when people have been scammed, they rightly desire some recourse to get their money back, or at least have some consequences for the scammer.
But if a service is not charging any fees, then *they can't do that*. There just isn't the money available to:
* Pay people who have been scammed
* Pay for staff and systems to police scammers on the platform
So they end up having to charge transaction fees. Which turns them into Visa, which is a regressive sales tax on the entire economy that ends up in the hands of capitalists — and they make more money the less fraud there is!
So when you read this story and think, "Ugh, ZELLE. They should police this stuff," remember that you're not wrong, but also that, at this point (now that Zelle actually has a lot of customers), this is also exactly what Zelle wants you to think for them to get where they want to go.
What's the alternative? Nationalize it and police it with taxpayer funds.
posted by billjings at 8:58 AM on October 10, 2023 [15 favorites]
How can they have nothing to protect people on either side of the transaction?
...is kinda complicated, in a way that is directly connected to the way our financial world is structured to funnel money to large central players.
The reason they have nothing to protect people on either side of the transaction is also the major selling point for Zelle and for other previous new market entrants: there are no transaction fees.
There are good reasons for wanting to provide a service that has no fees. This is appealing and makes sense to people for day-to-day transactions with a high degree of trust. But when people have been scammed, they rightly desire some recourse to get their money back, or at least have some consequences for the scammer.
But if a service is not charging any fees, then *they can't do that*. There just isn't the money available to:
* Pay people who have been scammed
* Pay for staff and systems to police scammers on the platform
So they end up having to charge transaction fees. Which turns them into Visa, which is a regressive sales tax on the entire economy that ends up in the hands of capitalists — and they make more money the less fraud there is!
So when you read this story and think, "Ugh, ZELLE. They should police this stuff," remember that you're not wrong, but also that, at this point (now that Zelle actually has a lot of customers), this is also exactly what Zelle wants you to think for them to get where they want to go.
What's the alternative? Nationalize it and police it with taxpayer funds.
posted by billjings at 8:58 AM on October 10, 2023 [15 favorites]
Blaming the victims of crimes for their lack of moral purity is never the right thing.
I'm sorry, but no, I'm not going to ignore an upper class twit slandering tradesmen because "that's the way the world works", nor am I going to have much sympathy when that becomes the petard that blows up in his face. And the reality is that the author was the perfect mark for this scam because he had such a demeaning, derogatory view of the trades, and as such accepted bad practices as "how things are" instead of the red flags they are.
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:58 AM on October 10, 2023 [44 favorites]
I'm sorry, but no, I'm not going to ignore an upper class twit slandering tradesmen because "that's the way the world works", nor am I going to have much sympathy when that becomes the petard that blows up in his face. And the reality is that the author was the perfect mark for this scam because he had such a demeaning, derogatory view of the trades, and as such accepted bad practices as "how things are" instead of the red flags they are.
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:58 AM on October 10, 2023 [44 favorites]
Zelle almost seems like an attractive nuisance in this situation. Of course you can say "They should have sent test transactions etc," but should it really be so easy to send large amounts of money irreversibly? Shouldn't Zelle at least have some warnings in place? Venmo at least has you confirm a phone number when sending to a new person and gives you the option to mark payments as a purchase which gives you some protection by charging the seller a fee. Some amount of friction would have been good in this situation.
As far as Gary's culpability I don't know. Honestly, this scam so untraceable he could have perpetrated it himself! Simply plead ignorance and say he never sent those emails. It's a good reason to prefer a payment method with some recourse for large transactions.
posted by being_quiet at 9:08 AM on October 10, 2023 [4 favorites]
As far as Gary's culpability I don't know. Honestly, this scam so untraceable he could have perpetrated it himself! Simply plead ignorance and say he never sent those emails. It's a good reason to prefer a payment method with some recourse for large transactions.
posted by being_quiet at 9:08 AM on October 10, 2023 [4 favorites]
Escrow transactions increasingly sound like the only way to safely do things. There's laws and rules and below dollar value X you will receive no help. So you have to pay a little extra to get the layer of safety (I assume escrow is still safe) that you want.
The next layer of decay is having a hundred bucks lying around to get the cop to fix the problem (if its a cut and dry thing) and the cop thinking that's a normal and acceptable circumstance. Which we have got to be close to, if certain small towns aren't there already.
posted by Slackermagee at 9:12 AM on October 10, 2023
The next layer of decay is having a hundred bucks lying around to get the cop to fix the problem (if its a cut and dry thing) and the cop thinking that's a normal and acceptable circumstance. Which we have got to be close to, if certain small towns aren't there already.
posted by Slackermagee at 9:12 AM on October 10, 2023
I heard a story on NPR a few days ago about the launch of FedNow (to which I say "finally!"), and in it, the reporter mentioned that some banks are concerned that instant payments means less protection against fraud. It seems like the banks' home-grown solution is functionally no better.
posted by adamrice at 9:16 AM on October 10, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by adamrice at 9:16 AM on October 10, 2023 [4 favorites]
How is this Gary's fault? Someone hacked his email address. What does he have to apologize for? He was almost entirely uninvolved in the scam. You could argue that Gary should have changed his password more often
This is a mild case compared to, say, a company that is trusted to store personal data, but of course businesses have some responsibility in principle to follow best practices to minimize the chance of a security compromise that affects customers. But I think the point being made in the characterization of Gary is that, realistically, one can’t expect a guy like Gary to bear the responsibility. Gary has a wheelhouse and this ain’t it. If the author were actually mad at the contractor about it, he probably wouldn’t have come back to the same contractor.
posted by atoxyl at 9:19 AM on October 10, 2023 [6 favorites]
This is a mild case compared to, say, a company that is trusted to store personal data, but of course businesses have some responsibility in principle to follow best practices to minimize the chance of a security compromise that affects customers. But I think the point being made in the characterization of Gary is that, realistically, one can’t expect a guy like Gary to bear the responsibility. Gary has a wheelhouse and this ain’t it. If the author were actually mad at the contractor about it, he probably wouldn’t have come back to the same contractor.
posted by atoxyl at 9:19 AM on October 10, 2023 [6 favorites]
The problem wasn't that they were idiots. The problem is that they came into this with a corrupt mindset and that caused them to be caught by corrupt practices. To quote a line from Bojack Horseman, "when you're looking through rose-tinted glasses...all the red flags look like just...flags."
Contractors, amirite?
That Bojack quote is good but doesn't quite work because rose-tinted glasses sort of implies that they were overlooking the bad stuff that they didn't want to see, which is kind of the opposite of what happened? They didn't fall victim to the scam because they naively thought better of their contractor. They got scammed because they thought their contractor was "a bit dodgy" and didn't blink when he started acting "a bit dodgy". From the very first paragraph, they describe Gary and the whole operation with such contempt and indignity. Maybe this is all just made-up flourishes to get the article published, but if any of it is true they definitely innoculated themselves into not noticing the rather obvious alarm bells that were going off (Zelle transfer? Even though the total amount far exceeds Zelle's daily limit? To two different gmail address? WTF)
I've met people whose default is not just to assume that everyone they interact with has some sort of angle, but also think that having an angle is just the way the world works. These are not fun people to be around.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 9:20 AM on October 10, 2023 [9 favorites]
Contractors, amirite?
That Bojack quote is good but doesn't quite work because rose-tinted glasses sort of implies that they were overlooking the bad stuff that they didn't want to see, which is kind of the opposite of what happened? They didn't fall victim to the scam because they naively thought better of their contractor. They got scammed because they thought their contractor was "a bit dodgy" and didn't blink when he started acting "a bit dodgy". From the very first paragraph, they describe Gary and the whole operation with such contempt and indignity. Maybe this is all just made-up flourishes to get the article published, but if any of it is true they definitely innoculated themselves into not noticing the rather obvious alarm bells that were going off (Zelle transfer? Even though the total amount far exceeds Zelle's daily limit? To two different gmail address? WTF)
I've met people whose default is not just to assume that everyone they interact with has some sort of angle, but also think that having an angle is just the way the world works. These are not fun people to be around.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 9:20 AM on October 10, 2023 [9 favorites]
My old therapist (who moved cross country) once suggested I pay her via Zelle. I looked this up and was all "hell no." Glad I didn't try it.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:20 AM on October 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:20 AM on October 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
> The author seems to think that the bank should cover his losses from getting scammed. How exactly would that work? "Oh, our customer got taken in by a scam so we're giving them $30,000 out of our own pocket!"
This is how your credit cards work.
When you get defrauded, you call your issuer, the bank makes you whole, and then the bank goes after someone else to fill the hole on their sheet. As a result, banks, credit card companies, and even merchants make *intense*, ongoing efforts to control fraud.
Sure, *someone* is gonna eat shit on some fraction of fraud cases, but why does that someone have to be the consumer, the party least able to do anything about it ? It is just obviously better to shift some (or all) of that liability to the parties with greater capability.
posted by your postings may, in fact, be signed at 9:24 AM on October 10, 2023 [36 favorites]
This is how your credit cards work.
When you get defrauded, you call your issuer, the bank makes you whole, and then the bank goes after someone else to fill the hole on their sheet. As a result, banks, credit card companies, and even merchants make *intense*, ongoing efforts to control fraud.
Sure, *someone* is gonna eat shit on some fraction of fraud cases, but why does that someone have to be the consumer, the party least able to do anything about it ? It is just obviously better to shift some (or all) of that liability to the parties with greater capability.
posted by your postings may, in fact, be signed at 9:24 AM on October 10, 2023 [36 favorites]
Why yes, I would bat an eye when a contractor asks to be paid in any other way than through their corporation
have you met contractors or tradespeople who work retail
posted by lalochezia at 9:26 AM on October 10, 2023 [5 favorites]
have you met contractors or tradespeople who work retail
posted by lalochezia at 9:26 AM on October 10, 2023 [5 favorites]
I am confused by the Gary side of things, and the Cheryls. Were they actually calling Gary’s office that entire time, or was that part of the scam too, to make them do all of this via email? Because it’s a bit confusing that suddenly they were able to get in touch with Gary only for him to say he hadn’t emailed them for a month. It seems like the major stopgap in this situation would have been to conduct this business via phone.
posted by gucci mane at 9:27 AM on October 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by gucci mane at 9:27 AM on October 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
Now is when I need to make some confessions. When Gary Kruglitz told us to Zelle him, he didn't really tell us to Zelle him. He told us to Zelle two people we had never met before. What I'm confessing is that we sent $30,500 of our hard-earned money to sunshineyasmin48@gmail.com and personalbreezy@gmail.com. Yes, someone emailed us and said, "Hey, will you Zelle 30 grand to a perfect stranger who goes by the name Personal Breezy and has no identification except for a Gmail account?" And our response was: Done!
uh. I'm not feeling the empathy here.
posted by chavenet at 9:27 AM on October 10, 2023 [14 favorites]
uh. I'm not feeling the empathy here.
posted by chavenet at 9:27 AM on October 10, 2023 [14 favorites]
For perspective, my day job involves working on fraud controls at a large company and I do not imagine we would be putting in this level of effort if we were not liable for most of the losses from fraud.
If credit cards worked like Zelle and we got to keep the stolen money, I really doubt we would do any of this work. I would have to find something else do with my time.
It took federal legislation to make credit cards into widely available, reliable instruments. It will probably take federal intervention to make Zelle similarly trustworthy.
posted by your postings may, in fact, be signed at 9:29 AM on October 10, 2023 [14 favorites]
If credit cards worked like Zelle and we got to keep the stolen money, I really doubt we would do any of this work. I would have to find something else do with my time.
It took federal legislation to make credit cards into widely available, reliable instruments. It will probably take federal intervention to make Zelle similarly trustworthy.
posted by your postings may, in fact, be signed at 9:29 AM on October 10, 2023 [14 favorites]
Also they freely admit that "we Karen-ed our way into being first in line to build a pool in the spring and now here it is in the middle of summer and we literally cannot get ahold of you."
The old adage that you can't con an honest man seems like it might hold here. They were so excited that their scheme to get to the front of the line finally worked that they didn't do any diligence on the transaction. That's basically how every scam works regardless of technology; you get distracted by some imaginary reward so you don't think about where your money is going.
posted by being_quiet at 9:36 AM on October 10, 2023 [11 favorites]
The old adage that you can't con an honest man seems like it might hold here. They were so excited that their scheme to get to the front of the line finally worked that they didn't do any diligence on the transaction. That's basically how every scam works regardless of technology; you get distracted by some imaginary reward so you don't think about where your money is going.
posted by being_quiet at 9:36 AM on October 10, 2023 [11 favorites]
have you met contractors or tradespeople who work retail
Why yes, I have - I'm a homeowner who has had several home improvements done over the years. And in all my dealings with the contractors, I've made sure to conduct my dealings professionally with contracts, payment schedules agreed to in advance, and proper invoices for work. This idea that tradesmen are by their nature corrupt is demeaning to them.
posted by NoxAeternum at 9:44 AM on October 10, 2023 [15 favorites]
Why yes, I have - I'm a homeowner who has had several home improvements done over the years. And in all my dealings with the contractors, I've made sure to conduct my dealings professionally with contracts, payment schedules agreed to in advance, and proper invoices for work. This idea that tradesmen are by their nature corrupt is demeaning to them.
posted by NoxAeternum at 9:44 AM on October 10, 2023 [15 favorites]
The new normal is here, but we, meaning I, don't have to like it.
Heads up anyhow:
I recently got a call from my "grandson" telling me he was driving his friend's car when he got into an accident in Boise, several hundred miles from where he lives. He was arrested and in jail for reasons, and he needed $7500 to bail him out of jail. It was a scam, of course, but the caller had my grandson's voice.
I needed a few minutes to catch up to the patter. Had I not worked in a boiler room a few years back, I would not have recognized the boiler-plate qualifiers he used to get me on board with his scam. I was already amazed by the technique, so by the time he got around to telling me to wire him the money via his friend--the one whose car he wrecked--flags were slapping me about the head and shoulders. Even so, I learned later that this was an AI-generated call that chose among several prepared statements, according to what questions I might ask.
But I told him I would get right on it, and instead, I called his mother to check out the story, just to be sure. I learned this was not an uncommon scam. I am still amazed. The scammer had reproduced his voice and the way he talked so perfectly. The bot even used his particular term for me. I'm told this was done by hacking his smartphone. Holy crap.
Because I am a semi-luddite, an old fart watching his paradigms rapidly dissolve, I have considered retiring to a cave without electricity and having one of my ex-wives bring me cheese and tangerines now and then.
posted by mule98J at 9:46 AM on October 10, 2023 [69 favorites]
Heads up anyhow:
I recently got a call from my "grandson" telling me he was driving his friend's car when he got into an accident in Boise, several hundred miles from where he lives. He was arrested and in jail for reasons, and he needed $7500 to bail him out of jail. It was a scam, of course, but the caller had my grandson's voice.
I needed a few minutes to catch up to the patter. Had I not worked in a boiler room a few years back, I would not have recognized the boiler-plate qualifiers he used to get me on board with his scam. I was already amazed by the technique, so by the time he got around to telling me to wire him the money via his friend--the one whose car he wrecked--flags were slapping me about the head and shoulders. Even so, I learned later that this was an AI-generated call that chose among several prepared statements, according to what questions I might ask.
But I told him I would get right on it, and instead, I called his mother to check out the story, just to be sure. I learned this was not an uncommon scam. I am still amazed. The scammer had reproduced his voice and the way he talked so perfectly. The bot even used his particular term for me. I'm told this was done by hacking his smartphone. Holy crap.
Because I am a semi-luddite, an old fart watching his paradigms rapidly dissolve, I have considered retiring to a cave without electricity and having one of my ex-wives bring me cheese and tangerines now and then.
posted by mule98J at 9:46 AM on October 10, 2023 [69 favorites]
Venmo at least has you confirm a phone number when sending to a new person and gives you the option to mark payments as a purchase which gives you some protection by charging the seller a fee.
The only reason I have ever used Zelle is that small-scale sellers often push to use it instead of PayPal etc. specifically because it doesn’t have a fee for them.
Actually Zelle at least used to start you out with a much lower transaction limit than PayPal. I think that’s basically their idea of protection. The first time I was asked to use it, by a landlord, I was annoyed that I had to split the payment into chunks - clearly the defaults weren’t calibrated for California housing prices!
My old therapist (who moved cross country) once suggested I pay her via Zelle. I looked this up and was all "hell no." Glad I didn't try it.
It’s probably worth clarifying the “happy path” here - your therapist asks you to pay via Zelle, you put in her phone number, which you already know, as the recipient, her name comes up in the confirmation, and then if you’re worried about it you ask her to confirm that she received payment. There are plenty of cases where it’s not inherently a particular sketchy interaction, and the scam described in this article only could have worked with some extended engagement and a willingness to send money to total mystery accounts. But there is a real issue that all these peer payment services are a Wild West compared to the payment methods that have been around long enough to be regulated.
posted by atoxyl at 9:47 AM on October 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
The only reason I have ever used Zelle is that small-scale sellers often push to use it instead of PayPal etc. specifically because it doesn’t have a fee for them.
Actually Zelle at least used to start you out with a much lower transaction limit than PayPal. I think that’s basically their idea of protection. The first time I was asked to use it, by a landlord, I was annoyed that I had to split the payment into chunks - clearly the defaults weren’t calibrated for California housing prices!
My old therapist (who moved cross country) once suggested I pay her via Zelle. I looked this up and was all "hell no." Glad I didn't try it.
It’s probably worth clarifying the “happy path” here - your therapist asks you to pay via Zelle, you put in her phone number, which you already know, as the recipient, her name comes up in the confirmation, and then if you’re worried about it you ask her to confirm that she received payment. There are plenty of cases where it’s not inherently a particular sketchy interaction, and the scam described in this article only could have worked with some extended engagement and a willingness to send money to total mystery accounts. But there is a real issue that all these peer payment services are a Wild West compared to the payment methods that have been around long enough to be regulated.
posted by atoxyl at 9:47 AM on October 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
Do we even know if Gary's email was compromised? The couple could have been emailing 'Gaary', obtained from some hacked online review/business listing discovered via google. We don't know if they were responding to the same thread/address he initially mailed them from.
Even when they're getting bizarre, nearly unreadable confirmations from "Gary" after each Zelle installment, they just chalk it up to their own unflattering stereotype of Gary and dismiss it.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 9:53 AM on October 10, 2023 [5 favorites]
Even when they're getting bizarre, nearly unreadable confirmations from "Gary" after each Zelle installment, they just chalk it up to their own unflattering stereotype of Gary and dismiss it.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 9:53 AM on October 10, 2023 [5 favorites]
Thanks for sharing this well-written and interesting article. It's easier to get scammed than many people think, especially if you think you're smarter than everybody else and onto anything they might try from the get-go, without doing any due diligence.
After seeing the header:
All I wanted was a status symbol. What I got was a $31,000 lesson in the downside of payment apps.
I was quite surprised to read:
someone emailed us and said, "Hey, will you Zelle 30 grand to a perfect stranger who goes by the name Personal Breezy and has no identification except for a Gmail account?" And our response was: Done!
I'm not sure the writer is taking all the available lessons from this experience.
posted by rpfields at 9:53 AM on October 10, 2023 [7 favorites]
After seeing the header:
All I wanted was a status symbol. What I got was a $31,000 lesson in the downside of payment apps.
I was quite surprised to read:
someone emailed us and said, "Hey, will you Zelle 30 grand to a perfect stranger who goes by the name Personal Breezy and has no identification except for a Gmail account?" And our response was: Done!
I'm not sure the writer is taking all the available lessons from this experience.
posted by rpfields at 9:53 AM on October 10, 2023 [7 favorites]
Now, to really up your “getting scammed” game, move over to crypto, where you could lose notional millions in one bad deal! Or, even better, type or paste something wrong and permanently lock you funds away forever! It’s immutable!
posted by GenjiandProust at 10:08 AM on October 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by GenjiandProust at 10:08 AM on October 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
mule98J, that is a stunning story and I am so glad you saw through it.
posted by CynicalKnight at 10:10 AM on October 10, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by CynicalKnight at 10:10 AM on October 10, 2023 [6 favorites]
I'm not sure the writer is taking all the available lessons from this experience.
I mean, “we were complete fucking idiots” is the pull quote, here. On one level I feel like some comments here are failing to separate the comic tropes (even if they draw on a bit of unfair stereotyping) from the message. On another it does feel like this particular scam required the victims to remain on the hook long enough that better regulation of payment apps alone might not have saved them their money.
posted by atoxyl at 10:11 AM on October 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
I mean, “we were complete fucking idiots” is the pull quote, here. On one level I feel like some comments here are failing to separate the comic tropes (even if they draw on a bit of unfair stereotyping) from the message. On another it does feel like this particular scam required the victims to remain on the hook long enough that better regulation of payment apps alone might not have saved them their money.
posted by atoxyl at 10:11 AM on October 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
As someone with a deposit down on a pool install (for next year) this whole story.... I'm embarrassed for the idiots but - the POLICE CHIEF showed up? Not even double checking the email of the Zelle is just ...... people should be ROASTING this couple, ug.
posted by djseafood at 10:27 AM on October 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by djseafood at 10:27 AM on October 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
That's basically how every scam works regardless of technology; you get distracted by some imaginary reward so you don't think
That's one way scams work, but it's not the only way. Scams stab the mark in the feels to stop them from thinking, and they all work by creating a sense of urgency so that people will act while they're distracted by that emotion, before they have time to think. But the emotion doesn't have to be excitement about a potential reward. The mark does not have to be greedy, dishonest, or stupid to be scammed. Umptythousand spurious workplace e-mails that purport to be from HR and insinuate that the recipient is lazy and stupid and a bad employee for failing to update their XYZ in a timely fashion are proof that greed isn't the motivator every time; a lot of the time it's fury. Romance scams make the mark feel affection for another person and a desire to help that person. Medicare and IRS and kidnapped grandchild scams target terrified old people and make them even more desperately afraid. All of them use emotion to shut down thought and all of them strive to create time pressure, but the victims are not all unsympathetic. In fact, anyone can fall prey to scammers. Smart people. Honest people. Unselfish people. All human persons are potential victims. That's why blaming scam victims, even unappealing, greedy, hardKarening, pool-grubbing, NYT columnist dumbdumb scam victims, is buying in to a counterproductive mogul-enriching antisocial philosophy that is delaying progress towards a solution that will protect people from scammers and other impoverishing life-wrecking phenomena that characterize our current rapacious capitalist era.
The author seems to think that the bank should cover his losses from getting scammed. How exactly would that work? "Oh, our customer got taken in by a scam so we're giving them $30,000 out of our own pocket!"
Yes, that is how it must work if we're going to continue having these convenient, friction-free, instant money transfer methods and not have to abandon banking in favor of stuffing our mattresses with money and paying cash in person for everything. If the law for credit cards were "they got what they deserved" like in Pinocchio, where the judge threw the little idiot in jail for being dumb enough to fall for the fox and the cat's scheme, then credit cards would be too terrifying and that system wouldn't work well. In fact, that might have happened had credit cards arrived not in relatively sane times but instead in the "regulate nothing, buyer beware" practical kleptocracy we struggle in today. There's a whole entire part all about that in TFA:
That we could require Zelle to protect users from fraud is, of course, not exactly an idea without precedent. "The context I use for Zelle is my credit card," the staffer from Senator Warren's office told me. "If someone steals my credit card, I'm protected. If someone fools me to pay with my credit card, the same thing holds. But it's important to remember that when credit cards were introduced, they didn't have those protections. The Fair Credit Billing Act built in those protections."
Senator Warren would very much like to have something like the Fair Credit Billing Act for peer-to-peer payments. But because there doesn't seem to be any political will for banking regulation at the moment, and Zelle certainly isn't going to just volunteer, it doesn't seem likely to happen anytime soon.
posted by Don Pepino at 10:42 AM on October 10, 2023 [14 favorites]
That's one way scams work, but it's not the only way. Scams stab the mark in the feels to stop them from thinking, and they all work by creating a sense of urgency so that people will act while they're distracted by that emotion, before they have time to think. But the emotion doesn't have to be excitement about a potential reward. The mark does not have to be greedy, dishonest, or stupid to be scammed. Umptythousand spurious workplace e-mails that purport to be from HR and insinuate that the recipient is lazy and stupid and a bad employee for failing to update their XYZ in a timely fashion are proof that greed isn't the motivator every time; a lot of the time it's fury. Romance scams make the mark feel affection for another person and a desire to help that person. Medicare and IRS and kidnapped grandchild scams target terrified old people and make them even more desperately afraid. All of them use emotion to shut down thought and all of them strive to create time pressure, but the victims are not all unsympathetic. In fact, anyone can fall prey to scammers. Smart people. Honest people. Unselfish people. All human persons are potential victims. That's why blaming scam victims, even unappealing, greedy, hardKarening, pool-grubbing, NYT columnist dumbdumb scam victims, is buying in to a counterproductive mogul-enriching antisocial philosophy that is delaying progress towards a solution that will protect people from scammers and other impoverishing life-wrecking phenomena that characterize our current rapacious capitalist era.
The author seems to think that the bank should cover his losses from getting scammed. How exactly would that work? "Oh, our customer got taken in by a scam so we're giving them $30,000 out of our own pocket!"
Yes, that is how it must work if we're going to continue having these convenient, friction-free, instant money transfer methods and not have to abandon banking in favor of stuffing our mattresses with money and paying cash in person for everything. If the law for credit cards were "they got what they deserved" like in Pinocchio, where the judge threw the little idiot in jail for being dumb enough to fall for the fox and the cat's scheme, then credit cards would be too terrifying and that system wouldn't work well. In fact, that might have happened had credit cards arrived not in relatively sane times but instead in the "regulate nothing, buyer beware" practical kleptocracy we struggle in today. There's a whole entire part all about that in TFA:
That we could require Zelle to protect users from fraud is, of course, not exactly an idea without precedent. "The context I use for Zelle is my credit card," the staffer from Senator Warren's office told me. "If someone steals my credit card, I'm protected. If someone fools me to pay with my credit card, the same thing holds. But it's important to remember that when credit cards were introduced, they didn't have those protections. The Fair Credit Billing Act built in those protections."
Senator Warren would very much like to have something like the Fair Credit Billing Act for peer-to-peer payments. But because there doesn't seem to be any political will for banking regulation at the moment, and Zelle certainly isn't going to just volunteer, it doesn't seem likely to happen anytime soon.
posted by Don Pepino at 10:42 AM on October 10, 2023 [14 favorites]
Fednow is not going to be any better than Zelle at preventing this kind of fraud.. But it does have a default txn limit of $100k, raisable to $500k!
posted by joeyh at 10:44 AM on October 10, 2023
posted by joeyh at 10:44 AM on October 10, 2023
But I told him I would get right on it, and instead, I called his mother to check out the story, just to be sure. I learned this was not an uncommon scam. I am still amazed. The scammer had reproduced his voice and the way he talked so perfectly. The bot even used his particular term for me. I'm told this was done by hacking his smartphone. Holy crap.
Several years ago my late grandfather got a call from a man claiming to be my brother, asking for bail money after being arrested in Mexico on some sort of marijuana charge. The story as I heard from our dad was that my grandfather told the caller that this sounded like a problem between "my brother" and our dad and that he should call him instead. And then my grandfather hung up.
We're still not entirely clear if he knew it was a scam or if he would just leave us to sweat it out in a foreign prison.
posted by Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug at 10:46 AM on October 10, 2023 [27 favorites]
Several years ago my late grandfather got a call from a man claiming to be my brother, asking for bail money after being arrested in Mexico on some sort of marijuana charge. The story as I heard from our dad was that my grandfather told the caller that this sounded like a problem between "my brother" and our dad and that he should call him instead. And then my grandfather hung up.
We're still not entirely clear if he knew it was a scam or if he would just leave us to sweat it out in a foreign prison.
posted by Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug at 10:46 AM on October 10, 2023 [27 favorites]
The scammer had reproduced his voice and the way he talked so perfectly. The bot even used his particular term for me. I'm told this was done by hacking his smartphone. Holy crap.
LLMs are fantastic mimics. There’s a whole tide of new frauds incoming for which most folks are wholly unprepared.
posted by leotrotsky at 10:51 AM on October 10, 2023 [4 favorites]
LLMs are fantastic mimics. There’s a whole tide of new frauds incoming for which most folks are wholly unprepared.
posted by leotrotsky at 10:51 AM on October 10, 2023 [4 favorites]
Some years back, a colleague I will call Bill needed to buy a video wall, i.e. a set of 1m × 500mm led panels designed to work together to show a video image; like the kind you see in the background of almost every concert these days.
He found a manufacturer in Shenzhen, and working with a woman who went by Lilly, struck a deal to have a few dozen panels manufactured and shipped to the United States. On the day he was going to wire the money, he got an e-mail that said, "Wire the money to this account." He told me about it, showing me his phone. Me, being how I am, took one look at the address and said, "That's from Indonesia."
Lo and behold is was from Indonesia. The manufacturer in China had been hacked. Bill had Lilly's phone number, so he texts her, "I want you to send me a video from your phone to my phone of you writing my name on a piece of paper while standing in your factory. After that, send me the wire number and I will send the money to that account." They did that. He still uses that handwritten version of his name as his logo on everything he buys from them.
There's a whole crazy tale of him having to drive from bank to bank to get all the cash he needed that includes him driving around with five figures of money in a duffel bag and the story of day the people from Shenzhen came to visit us at the farm, but those are for another time.
posted by ob1quixote at 11:27 AM on October 10, 2023 [20 favorites]
He found a manufacturer in Shenzhen, and working with a woman who went by Lilly, struck a deal to have a few dozen panels manufactured and shipped to the United States. On the day he was going to wire the money, he got an e-mail that said, "Wire the money to this account." He told me about it, showing me his phone. Me, being how I am, took one look at the address and said, "That's from Indonesia."
Lo and behold is was from Indonesia. The manufacturer in China had been hacked. Bill had Lilly's phone number, so he texts her, "I want you to send me a video from your phone to my phone of you writing my name on a piece of paper while standing in your factory. After that, send me the wire number and I will send the money to that account." They did that. He still uses that handwritten version of his name as his logo on everything he buys from them.
There's a whole crazy tale of him having to drive from bank to bank to get all the cash he needed that includes him driving around with five figures of money in a duffel bag and the story of day the people from Shenzhen came to visit us at the farm, but those are for another time.
posted by ob1quixote at 11:27 AM on October 10, 2023 [20 favorites]
I'm sorry, but no, I'm not going to ignore an upper class twit slandering tradesmen because "that's the way the world works", nor am I going to have much sympathy when that becomes the petard that blows up in his face. And the reality is that the author was the perfect mark for this scam because he had such a demeaning, derogatory view of the trades, and as such accepted bad practices as "how things are" instead of the red flags they are.
Yeah I find the whole scene sus, especially since the author had written for Wealthsimple for a couple years before this fiasco so it's doubly weird that as a upper class twit who thinks tradespersons are inherently corrupt, he had no idea that fraud existed in the finace app space.
About the author Devin Friedman, from his website: Devin has been editor in chief and an executive creative director at Wealthsimple* since 2017. He created the brand voice and worked with a small creative team to build the company from a startup with a few thousand clients to one of the most successful new companies in Canada with more than three million clients.
Download the new Wealthsimple Cash app, and seven seconds later you can pay rent, split the bill, or settle up with the dog-walker in an instant. And it’s totally free.
posted by oneirodynia at 11:50 AM on October 10, 2023 [12 favorites]
Yeah I find the whole scene sus, especially since the author had written for Wealthsimple for a couple years before this fiasco so it's doubly weird that as a upper class twit who thinks tradespersons are inherently corrupt, he had no idea that fraud existed in the finace app space.
About the author Devin Friedman, from his website: Devin has been editor in chief and an executive creative director at Wealthsimple* since 2017. He created the brand voice and worked with a small creative team to build the company from a startup with a few thousand clients to one of the most successful new companies in Canada with more than three million clients.
Download the new Wealthsimple Cash app, and seven seconds later you can pay rent, split the bill, or settle up with the dog-walker in an instant. And it’s totally free.
posted by oneirodynia at 11:50 AM on October 10, 2023 [12 favorites]
This is how your credit cards work.
and they take enormous fees off the top from sellers.
IIRC venmo shows you a history of others making payments to the account, so you will hopefully notice a brand-new account (or a scam will need to have been successful with others). One of the nice things about block-chain-ish payments is that they can show the in-and-out connections, or be clearly signed by an established or staked entity. WeChat and AliPay (as I understand it) makes it easy for you to provide the payment-invoice QR code in person. There are a lot of ways to make payments safer that US entities just don't care to implement.
posted by a robot made out of meat at 11:52 AM on October 10, 2023 [2 favorites]
and they take enormous fees off the top from sellers.
IIRC venmo shows you a history of others making payments to the account, so you will hopefully notice a brand-new account (or a scam will need to have been successful with others). One of the nice things about block-chain-ish payments is that they can show the in-and-out connections, or be clearly signed by an established or staked entity. WeChat and AliPay (as I understand it) makes it easy for you to provide the payment-invoice QR code in person. There are a lot of ways to make payments safer that US entities just don't care to implement.
posted by a robot made out of meat at 11:52 AM on October 10, 2023 [2 favorites]
Before reading the article I thought we're lucky in Canada that we have half a dozen strong banks (and room for smaller local ones and credit unions), and that they run their own electronic transfer system. And we are, but this sounds like a the writer ignored obvious signs of a phishing attack. Dubious email addresses, poorly written emails, and bogus requests. We have to watch these security videos every year at work and pass a multiple-choice test, and every phishy smell they cover showed up in that article.
There's a lot to be said for physically making your way to a vendor and writing a check.
posted by morspin at 12:19 PM on October 10, 2023
There's a lot to be said for physically making your way to a vendor and writing a check.
posted by morspin at 12:19 PM on October 10, 2023
The scammer had reproduced his voice and the way he talked so perfectly. The bot even used his particular term for me. I'm told this was done by hacking his smartphone. Holy crap.
Yeah, I think we're absolutely not prepared for these scams, especially if you're a person who has given speeches or interviews and has internet-scrapable effects of your voice. We aren't ready for AI to help with scamming, much less when it's applied to how to scam better.
Tl;dr, we're all doomed.
posted by corb at 12:21 PM on October 10, 2023 [4 favorites]
Yeah, I think we're absolutely not prepared for these scams, especially if you're a person who has given speeches or interviews and has internet-scrapable effects of your voice. We aren't ready for AI to help with scamming, much less when it's applied to how to scam better.
Tl;dr, we're all doomed.
posted by corb at 12:21 PM on October 10, 2023 [4 favorites]
Download the new Wealthsimple Cash app, and seven seconds later you can pay rent, split the bill, or settle up with the dog-walker in an instant. And it’s totally free.
Okay, so this doesn't take anything away from the actual message of his article: All sorts of people get scammed, there's a terrible lack of oversight and regulations in this industry, and something needs to be done to provide better protections...
but like, what the hell? You work as the chief editor and executive creative director for a potential competitor to Zelle, and you don't disclose that information in your personal sob story about Zelle not providing you any recourse for recovering your money? Just seems kiiiinda underhanded and sus.
I know Wealthsimple only operates in Canada, but do they enjoy the same broken regulatory system and offer the same lack of guardrails as Zelle? Would the situation have played out any differently if you were using Wealthsimple instead of Zelle? If so, why didn't you mention that? If not, also why didn't you mention that?
posted by RonButNotStupid at 12:37 PM on October 10, 2023 [20 favorites]
Okay, so this doesn't take anything away from the actual message of his article: All sorts of people get scammed, there's a terrible lack of oversight and regulations in this industry, and something needs to be done to provide better protections...
but like, what the hell? You work as the chief editor and executive creative director for a potential competitor to Zelle, and you don't disclose that information in your personal sob story about Zelle not providing you any recourse for recovering your money? Just seems kiiiinda underhanded and sus.
I know Wealthsimple only operates in Canada, but do they enjoy the same broken regulatory system and offer the same lack of guardrails as Zelle? Would the situation have played out any differently if you were using Wealthsimple instead of Zelle? If so, why didn't you mention that? If not, also why didn't you mention that?
posted by RonButNotStupid at 12:37 PM on October 10, 2023 [20 favorites]
Several of you have referred to this article as "well written." I found the whole thing really annoying: the unnecessary description of Gary, the--I'm just going to call it--classism of assuming all contractors are scummy, the embarrassing emotional BS about seeing himself as the type of person who has a pool, etc. A good editor would have cut about 60% of this article and made it decent. The writing style reminds me of the lifestyle writing that I hate the most in the NYT, especially in the Magazine.
posted by tippiedog at 12:50 PM on October 10, 2023 [18 favorites]
posted by tippiedog at 12:50 PM on October 10, 2023 [18 favorites]
Your own Personal Breezy
Someone to takes your dough
And then's a no-show
Feeling unknown and you're all alone
Saying 'yellllow' on the telephone
Lift up the receiver, talk to a deceiver
Listen to me yammer, you know I'm a scammer
posted by kirkaracha at 12:55 PM on October 10, 2023 [21 favorites]
Someone to takes your dough
And then's a no-show
Feeling unknown and you're all alone
Saying 'yellllow' on the telephone
Lift up the receiver, talk to a deceiver
Listen to me yammer, you know I'm a scammer
posted by kirkaracha at 12:55 PM on October 10, 2023 [21 favorites]
When selling a way-underwater almost-foreclosed past-due-utilities house last year, my realtor called me to say that the Los Angeles Department of Water and Power had called him to tell him that the property was scheduled for disconnection of water and power for non-payment the next morning. My realtor passed along contact information for LADWP's tier 2 customer service for escalation and disconnects.
Naturally, I tried checking my DWP account for notices about pending disconnects, but the account credentials had been changed by my ex, and she wasn't immediately available to give me the new password. And if the damn house didn't close a sale by September 9, our lender would foreclose and auction the property—the last bit of capital either of us had after a decade of chronic illness and addiction—on the courthouse steps in Norwalk.
So I called the number my realtor gave me and was greeted by a friendly, helpful customer service representative named Will. Will informed me that cards were not accepted for pending disconnects and commiserated with me. He told me the only option to stop disconnect was to make the full payment of $1280 (about right) in cash at a DWP office in Los Angeles (about 60 miles away, and me with no working automobile and self-imposed ironclad ATM card limits meant to stop me from picking up super-fun hard drugs and paraphernalia) or by Zelle to the customer service account DWP had set up for him under the name WILKERMAN J. CHOURIO.
You don't have to follow Venezuelan minor-league baseball players to know where this story is headed.
Yes, I was an idiot. Some would say I still am. The most frustrating part is that after getting defrauded, I still had to pay the real LADWP $880 to keep water and power service active while the sale process glacially (but successfully) progressed.
posted by infinitewindow at 1:02 PM on October 10, 2023 [9 favorites]
Naturally, I tried checking my DWP account for notices about pending disconnects, but the account credentials had been changed by my ex, and she wasn't immediately available to give me the new password. And if the damn house didn't close a sale by September 9, our lender would foreclose and auction the property—the last bit of capital either of us had after a decade of chronic illness and addiction—on the courthouse steps in Norwalk.
So I called the number my realtor gave me and was greeted by a friendly, helpful customer service representative named Will. Will informed me that cards were not accepted for pending disconnects and commiserated with me. He told me the only option to stop disconnect was to make the full payment of $1280 (about right) in cash at a DWP office in Los Angeles (about 60 miles away, and me with no working automobile and self-imposed ironclad ATM card limits meant to stop me from picking up super-fun hard drugs and paraphernalia) or by Zelle to the customer service account DWP had set up for him under the name WILKERMAN J. CHOURIO.
You don't have to follow Venezuelan minor-league baseball players to know where this story is headed.
Yes, I was an idiot. Some would say I still am. The most frustrating part is that after getting defrauded, I still had to pay the real LADWP $880 to keep water and power service active while the sale process glacially (but successfully) progressed.
posted by infinitewindow at 1:02 PM on October 10, 2023 [9 favorites]
The proverb that the "all contractors have an angle" discussion has called to mind for me is "you can't cheat an honest man." This isn't literally true, of course: you can cheat an honest person in lots of ways. But the vast class of scams that rely on making the mark think he or she is in on the scam won't work on someone who isn't willing to get in on a scam.
posted by sy at 1:20 PM on October 10, 2023
posted by sy at 1:20 PM on October 10, 2023
Yeah, we recently found out--via a FB marketplace scam--that Zelle has zero protection, which was just baffling. How can they have nothing to protect people on either side of the transaction?
I'm chiming in to note that the focus on Zelle here is a bit short-sighted.
As others have noted, the business email compromise here is the culprit, as well as the aforementioned wire transfer process, which as it turns out, also does not protect people on either side of the transaction.
I can speak from personal experience here. Last year I sold a house I had inherited after my mother died. The closing process was a major hassle for various reasons, and after many delays (and with everyone involved sick and tired of the process) finally went through.
To make a long story short, bad guys had hacked into my real estate agent's email and were monitoring his account waiting for an ideal moment to jump in. Because the house was in Florida and I was up in the Northeast, I was the lucky "winner" of the hackathon.
Long story short: the hackers set up two emails: one that looked very very similar to mine, and one that looked very very similar to the lawyers. On the day after the closing, they sent a fake email pretending to be me to my lawyer, saying that I had "changed my mind at the last minute and wanted a wire transfer" instead of having a hard copy bank check sent to me.
The paralegal royally screwed up by not confirming this with me by phone/video, and then further screwed up by accepting the amateur-hour wire transfer paperwork the hackers sent her.
When all was said and done, they got away with the money. The lawyers 100% screwed up, but Chase bank, where the funds were fraudulently sent, was INCREDIBLY unhelpful. They closed the case apparently because they couldn't get in touch with the owners of the account to hear their side of the story. Which, yeah, you couldn't get in touch with them because they were long gone. This is why wiring funds is such a fragile system, and therefore an attractive target for the bad guys.
Epilogue: the lawyer was on the hook for the money, which he still had a contract to give to me, and it was only due to the fact he had cyberfraud insurance that he avoided having to pay me out of his own pocket.
So fair warning to all, when it comes to money, be extra-vigilant and try to do as much in person or at least verified by phone/video if there's even a possibility of fraud.
posted by jeremias at 1:54 PM on October 10, 2023 [15 favorites]
I'm chiming in to note that the focus on Zelle here is a bit short-sighted.
As others have noted, the business email compromise here is the culprit, as well as the aforementioned wire transfer process, which as it turns out, also does not protect people on either side of the transaction.
I can speak from personal experience here. Last year I sold a house I had inherited after my mother died. The closing process was a major hassle for various reasons, and after many delays (and with everyone involved sick and tired of the process) finally went through.
To make a long story short, bad guys had hacked into my real estate agent's email and were monitoring his account waiting for an ideal moment to jump in. Because the house was in Florida and I was up in the Northeast, I was the lucky "winner" of the hackathon.
Long story short: the hackers set up two emails: one that looked very very similar to mine, and one that looked very very similar to the lawyers. On the day after the closing, they sent a fake email pretending to be me to my lawyer, saying that I had "changed my mind at the last minute and wanted a wire transfer" instead of having a hard copy bank check sent to me.
The paralegal royally screwed up by not confirming this with me by phone/video, and then further screwed up by accepting the amateur-hour wire transfer paperwork the hackers sent her.
When all was said and done, they got away with the money. The lawyers 100% screwed up, but Chase bank, where the funds were fraudulently sent, was INCREDIBLY unhelpful. They closed the case apparently because they couldn't get in touch with the owners of the account to hear their side of the story. Which, yeah, you couldn't get in touch with them because they were long gone. This is why wiring funds is such a fragile system, and therefore an attractive target for the bad guys.
Epilogue: the lawyer was on the hook for the money, which he still had a contract to give to me, and it was only due to the fact he had cyberfraud insurance that he avoided having to pay me out of his own pocket.
So fair warning to all, when it comes to money, be extra-vigilant and try to do as much in person or at least verified by phone/video if there's even a possibility of fraud.
posted by jeremias at 1:54 PM on October 10, 2023 [15 favorites]
I also found the writing annoying and smug. And just not very good: I didn’t really get a mental image of this pool contractor at all.
Also it occurs to me that a pool is an incredibly expensive source of entertainment. How many good pool days do you get per year in the Berkshires?
posted by smelendez at 2:00 PM on October 10, 2023
Also it occurs to me that a pool is an incredibly expensive source of entertainment. How many good pool days do you get per year in the Berkshires?
posted by smelendez at 2:00 PM on October 10, 2023
The whole time I read this I kept feeling bad... for Gary. This scam wouldn't have worked at all if these people hadn't had such a low opinion of "lol contractors".
posted by bradbane at 2:21 PM on October 10, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by bradbane at 2:21 PM on October 10, 2023 [5 favorites]
Ironically, the reporter would have been the one tipped off to the US government first. Consecutive cash transfers of less than the $10,000 treasury reporting limit are considered “layering” to evade reporting requirements and would kick out a suspicious transaction report automatically at most banks.
posted by dr_dank at 2:36 PM on October 10, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by dr_dank at 2:36 PM on October 10, 2023 [2 favorites]
How many good pool days do you get per year in the Berkshires?
This is another interesting question because in his single Medium post from May 2020, Devin Friedman wrote this:
Like a lot of people in the last decade or so, I recently moved from New York to Los Angeles.
So who knows how that jives with what he wrote below, about trying to get pool work started in 2021. Maybe he lives in LA and the Berkshires:
Originally, the pool work was supposed to commence in April 2020. But obviously that didn't happen, because that was when everyone was sealed in their homes rinsing groceries in a solution of three parts water to one part Clorox. But now it was 2021. The construction trade was beginning to lurch back to life.
posted by oneirodynia at 4:20 PM on October 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
This is another interesting question because in his single Medium post from May 2020, Devin Friedman wrote this:
Like a lot of people in the last decade or so, I recently moved from New York to Los Angeles.
So who knows how that jives with what he wrote below, about trying to get pool work started in 2021. Maybe he lives in LA and the Berkshires:
Originally, the pool work was supposed to commence in April 2020. But obviously that didn't happen, because that was when everyone was sealed in their homes rinsing groceries in a solution of three parts water to one part Clorox. But now it was 2021. The construction trade was beginning to lurch back to life.
posted by oneirodynia at 4:20 PM on October 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
Consecutive cash transfers of less than the $10,000 treasury reporting limit are considered “layering” to evade reporting requirements and would kick out a suspicious transaction report automatically at most banks.
I mentioned this earlier (and the article actually does, too) but in a way this is something that one may be pushed into doing by Zelle’s own rather conservative daily and weekly transaction limits - or rather by vendors/service providers pushing customers to use Zelle despite it obviously being poorly suited for large transfers. Really that should be a core lesson here, that paying $30k by Zelle is nuts and that a request to do so should be seen as a red flag right away. But as I said I earlier, I have absolutely had “legitimate” recipients request that I use Zelle for sums that would require installments, albeit still much smaller sums than $30k. I pushed back, but I wasn’t even thinking about getting scammed, it was just a hassle.
posted by atoxyl at 4:29 PM on October 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
I mentioned this earlier (and the article actually does, too) but in a way this is something that one may be pushed into doing by Zelle’s own rather conservative daily and weekly transaction limits - or rather by vendors/service providers pushing customers to use Zelle despite it obviously being poorly suited for large transfers. Really that should be a core lesson here, that paying $30k by Zelle is nuts and that a request to do so should be seen as a red flag right away. But as I said I earlier, I have absolutely had “legitimate” recipients request that I use Zelle for sums that would require installments, albeit still much smaller sums than $30k. I pushed back, but I wasn’t even thinking about getting scammed, it was just a hassle.
posted by atoxyl at 4:29 PM on October 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
As a gen xer, it blows my mind that people use Venmo or Zelle or any other flavor of the month app like that to send money around. I guess I’m just suspicious of any and all Silicon Valley “innovations” the same way I’m suspicious of a revolutionary new way to cook pasta faster. I hate the big commercial banks (I use a credit union) but the solution is to regulate them more, not go to some Wild West bro zone. My version of government finance regulation goes like this: any new financial instrument, money transfer system, lending model, etc. is disallowed by default until it goes through a gauntlet of hearings and study by skeptical regulators over a period of years. Like, I know I’m conflating a lot of things, but I think forcing the government to have to chase an endless stream of bullshit new ideas is the wrong model. It should be “prove to the American people that this is necessary, they you may proceed”.
posted by caviar2d2 at 4:35 PM on October 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by caviar2d2 at 4:35 PM on October 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
My version of government finance regulation goes like this: any new financial instrument, money transfer system, lending model, etc. is disallowed by default until it goes through a gauntlet of hearings and study by skeptical regulators over a period of years.
Ironically, the opposite approach may be better. In Australia, the view our regulator takes is that they impose less onerous regulation on new financial transfer / lending systems to encourage competition and innovation.
There is already huge lobbying pressure by existing players like Visa or Amex to "freeze" the current financial landscape, from which they are profiting handsomely, and to exclude / kill off any new entrants by loading them up with expensive compliance requirements.
For reference, in the US, AMEX is the worst offender, charging 3% merchant fees, but even Mastercard and Visa in US charge 2% merchant fees.
Compare this to China where the average merchant fee is about 0.6%. I understand part of how they can keep fees lower is the nature of their QR code style payments system - in the Western credit card system you expose YOUR payment authentication details (card number) to every vendor you meet, which means anyone who steals your details can use your card for fraud, and the card issuers have to pay out on fraud claims. In the QR code system, the vendor is the one who exposes their bank account to you, and you make payment to it - no vendor ever gets your authentication details.
posted by xdvesper at 4:51 PM on October 10, 2023 [4 favorites]
Ironically, the opposite approach may be better. In Australia, the view our regulator takes is that they impose less onerous regulation on new financial transfer / lending systems to encourage competition and innovation.
There is already huge lobbying pressure by existing players like Visa or Amex to "freeze" the current financial landscape, from which they are profiting handsomely, and to exclude / kill off any new entrants by loading them up with expensive compliance requirements.
For reference, in the US, AMEX is the worst offender, charging 3% merchant fees, but even Mastercard and Visa in US charge 2% merchant fees.
Compare this to China where the average merchant fee is about 0.6%. I understand part of how they can keep fees lower is the nature of their QR code style payments system - in the Western credit card system you expose YOUR payment authentication details (card number) to every vendor you meet, which means anyone who steals your details can use your card for fraud, and the card issuers have to pay out on fraud claims. In the QR code system, the vendor is the one who exposes their bank account to you, and you make payment to it - no vendor ever gets your authentication details.
posted by xdvesper at 4:51 PM on October 10, 2023 [4 favorites]
...it's doubly weird that as a upper class twit who thinks tradespersons are inherently corrupt, he had no idea that fraud existed in the finace app space...
I do absolutely feel sympathy for this couple, as I would for any victim of scammers. But there were a lot of times when a person who appears to have a sound understanding of how financial systems work absolutely should have seen the red flags madly waving around all over the place. So my sympathy is somewhat limited compared to, say, an 80-year-old who got scammed out of their pension money by a telephone scammer. They absolutely should have known better, which the writer does acknowledge. I also agree that the willingness to assume the contractor was at least a bit dodgy on the basis that they seemed a bit old-fashioned in the way they ran their business doesn't paint the couple in a very positive way.
I'd never heard of Zelle before, but it sounds like something I would absolutely not ever use because it's clearly insecure and the idea of using something like that to transfer $30k would have been a huge blood-red flag that had me running away as fast as my old legs could carry me. But I guess, living somewhere where interbank transfers are common, secure, instant and free, I'm not likely to even consider using anything else without good reason. I'm also not surprised that banks have set themselves up as owners of a regulation-free money transfer system, given the cost involved in administering regulated systems.
I have dealt a few times with an online vendor that uses an interesting anti-scam technique - you give them your BSB (bank number) and account number, then they transfer you a (supposedly) random amount between one and 13 cents. To pay for your purchase, you have to enter the amount that was transferred. I'm not sure how effective it is, but it's certainly inconvenient enough that it might just work ;-).
posted by dg at 6:36 PM on October 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
I do absolutely feel sympathy for this couple, as I would for any victim of scammers. But there were a lot of times when a person who appears to have a sound understanding of how financial systems work absolutely should have seen the red flags madly waving around all over the place. So my sympathy is somewhat limited compared to, say, an 80-year-old who got scammed out of their pension money by a telephone scammer. They absolutely should have known better, which the writer does acknowledge. I also agree that the willingness to assume the contractor was at least a bit dodgy on the basis that they seemed a bit old-fashioned in the way they ran their business doesn't paint the couple in a very positive way.
I'd never heard of Zelle before, but it sounds like something I would absolutely not ever use because it's clearly insecure and the idea of using something like that to transfer $30k would have been a huge blood-red flag that had me running away as fast as my old legs could carry me. But I guess, living somewhere where interbank transfers are common, secure, instant and free, I'm not likely to even consider using anything else without good reason. I'm also not surprised that banks have set themselves up as owners of a regulation-free money transfer system, given the cost involved in administering regulated systems.
I have dealt a few times with an online vendor that uses an interesting anti-scam technique - you give them your BSB (bank number) and account number, then they transfer you a (supposedly) random amount between one and 13 cents. To pay for your purchase, you have to enter the amount that was transferred. I'm not sure how effective it is, but it's certainly inconvenient enough that it might just work ;-).
posted by dg at 6:36 PM on October 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
I'd never heard of Zelle before, but it sounds like something I would absolutely not ever use because it's clearly insecure and the idea of using something like that to transfer $30k
Zelle isn't doing anything different to you simply transferring cash from one account to another.
For example, you have a bank account with account number 123456
Your mom has a bank account with an account number 234567
You go to your bank app, and say, you want to pay $100 from your account to 234567. Done.
All Zelle is doing is (I'm pretty sure) is being an intermediate layer where, your mom doesn't have to tell you her bank account number is 234567, she just says, I'm on Zelle. You go to your Zelle phone app, which auto populates from your phone contacts list, and you see "Mom" there already, you click on her name, you see that her mobile number, full name and email matches what you know to be your mom, and you hit "send" for $100 to her. Her Zelle account is linked to her 234567 bank account.
It just removes the friction of having her tell you her bank account number is 234567 and oops I made an error with one digit and now the money is gone forever, so in theory Zelle is safer because it provides confirmation on multiple levels (name + phone number + email) rather than you trying to confirm if 234567 is "really" the right account.
We use similar apps like this all the time and it makes things so simple, say 7 of us friends go out for lunch, someone pays the bill, and 6 other people pay them back, just tap a few times on the app and the bill is settled.
Direct money transfers (and physical cash payments) never had any protections to begin with. Let's say your friend goes, I'll sell you my phone since you like it, just give me $200. You pay $200 into his bank account (whether through the bank app or Zelle or cash) you take the phone... then you complain to the bank that the $200 was a scam, give me back my money.
You think the bank is going to send an investigation team out and adjudicate between your friend and you just to determine who is right or wrong, whether there was actually a phone sale or not, or if the phone was broken and thus you should get your money back? Or that the bank should eat the $200 loss? It was your money, you chose to send it to your friend, the bank did as you asked, end of story. If you're not happy with the outcome, you take your friend to court.
posted by xdvesper at 7:53 PM on October 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
Zelle isn't doing anything different to you simply transferring cash from one account to another.
For example, you have a bank account with account number 123456
Your mom has a bank account with an account number 234567
You go to your bank app, and say, you want to pay $100 from your account to 234567. Done.
All Zelle is doing is (I'm pretty sure) is being an intermediate layer where, your mom doesn't have to tell you her bank account number is 234567, she just says, I'm on Zelle. You go to your Zelle phone app, which auto populates from your phone contacts list, and you see "Mom" there already, you click on her name, you see that her mobile number, full name and email matches what you know to be your mom, and you hit "send" for $100 to her. Her Zelle account is linked to her 234567 bank account.
It just removes the friction of having her tell you her bank account number is 234567 and oops I made an error with one digit and now the money is gone forever, so in theory Zelle is safer because it provides confirmation on multiple levels (name + phone number + email) rather than you trying to confirm if 234567 is "really" the right account.
We use similar apps like this all the time and it makes things so simple, say 7 of us friends go out for lunch, someone pays the bill, and 6 other people pay them back, just tap a few times on the app and the bill is settled.
Direct money transfers (and physical cash payments) never had any protections to begin with. Let's say your friend goes, I'll sell you my phone since you like it, just give me $200. You pay $200 into his bank account (whether through the bank app or Zelle or cash) you take the phone... then you complain to the bank that the $200 was a scam, give me back my money.
You think the bank is going to send an investigation team out and adjudicate between your friend and you just to determine who is right or wrong, whether there was actually a phone sale or not, or if the phone was broken and thus you should get your money back? Or that the bank should eat the $200 loss? It was your money, you chose to send it to your friend, the bank did as you asked, end of story. If you're not happy with the outcome, you take your friend to court.
posted by xdvesper at 7:53 PM on October 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
Senator Warren would very much like to have something like the Fair Credit Billing Act for peer-to-peer payments. But because there doesn't seem to be any political will for banking regulation at the moment, and Zelle certainly isn't going to just volunteer, it doesn't seem likely to happen anytime soon.
Has anyone read the Panama Papers? The entire world economy seems to be run by criminal cartels. This is why I'm never surprised by the actions of the republican party in this country. They do the cartel's bidding.
posted by any major dude at 9:16 PM on October 10, 2023 [6 favorites]
Has anyone read the Panama Papers? The entire world economy seems to be run by criminal cartels. This is why I'm never surprised by the actions of the republican party in this country. They do the cartel's bidding.
posted by any major dude at 9:16 PM on October 10, 2023 [6 favorites]
your Zelle phone app, which auto populates from your phone contacts list, and you see "Mom" there already, you click on her name, you see that her mobile number, full name and email matches what you know to be your mom, and you hit "send" for $100 to her. Her Zelle account is linked to her 234567 bank account
So, it's a public database linking names, phone numbers, email addresses and bank account details to individuals? What could possibly go wrong there?
It was your money, you chose to send it to your friend, the bank did as you asked, end of story. If you're not happy with the outcome, you take your friend to court.
Of course, that's how financial transactions work - you choose to send a person money, the bank does the transfer and that's the end of their involvement. Nobody is suggesting banks are going to or should be involved in consumer disputes. But at least banks will look into transfers where there may be fraud, even if they can't do anything because they received a valid request and carried it out correctly. Banks are, though, required to have anti-fraud measures in place and do have some responsibility to look for patterns that suggest fraud is occurring and are known to intervene in anything that looks suspicious. When you insert a fourth or fifth entity into the arrangement, you break that chain of responsibility and suddenly nobody has anything in place to test the validity of transfers.
posted by dg at 9:31 PM on October 10, 2023 [2 favorites]
So, it's a public database linking names, phone numbers, email addresses and bank account details to individuals? What could possibly go wrong there?
It was your money, you chose to send it to your friend, the bank did as you asked, end of story. If you're not happy with the outcome, you take your friend to court.
Of course, that's how financial transactions work - you choose to send a person money, the bank does the transfer and that's the end of their involvement. Nobody is suggesting banks are going to or should be involved in consumer disputes. But at least banks will look into transfers where there may be fraud, even if they can't do anything because they received a valid request and carried it out correctly. Banks are, though, required to have anti-fraud measures in place and do have some responsibility to look for patterns that suggest fraud is occurring and are known to intervene in anything that looks suspicious. When you insert a fourth or fifth entity into the arrangement, you break that chain of responsibility and suddenly nobody has anything in place to test the validity of transfers.
posted by dg at 9:31 PM on October 10, 2023 [2 favorites]
The main reason scams like this are so common is that they are largely risk-free for the perpetuators. In my city cops will gladly arrest someone who passes a bad check, but with internet-based-fraud will refuse to take any action, assuming the perpetuators are out of the country.
However, this problem could be easily solved with a small amount of government attention. The transactions are traceable, or there is a bank that should be cut off from international banking systems. Arrest the bagmen who buy gift cards with stolen credit cards. Recruit foreign governments to shut down the office towers full of scammers and arrest their leaders.
posted by hermanubis at 9:33 PM on October 10, 2023 [4 favorites]
However, this problem could be easily solved with a small amount of government attention. The transactions are traceable, or there is a bank that should be cut off from international banking systems. Arrest the bagmen who buy gift cards with stolen credit cards. Recruit foreign governments to shut down the office towers full of scammers and arrest their leaders.
posted by hermanubis at 9:33 PM on October 10, 2023 [4 favorites]
So, it's a public database linking names, phone numbers, email addresses and bank account details to individuals? What could possibly go wrong there?
Not trying to downplay the privacy aspect of it - identity scams are clearly a major threat nowadays in a way they were not before (the naive days of yore when the phone book had the names, addresses and phone numbers of literally everyone in the city!). But yes, presumably you're on Zelle because you want people to be able to find you and pay you easily - it would be like being on LinkedIn and filling out a profile and then complaining that people could see what jobs you had in the past.
The bank account numbers are only known to Zelle, yeah they could be hacked, but... that's mostly inconsequential. If someone took your credit card number they could use it for fraud, and we let total strangers handle our credit cards all the time. The more important part of breaking into your account is your user ID and login / 2FA authentication, the bank account number itself does nothing. I could give out my bank account number to 100 people and all they could do is pay money to me.
There's nothing to suggest the bank's anti-fraud measures are any more or less stringent for transfers initiated in person, through their app, or through Zelle - it all shows up the same way to them, they are the ones physically executing the transfer, so they are equally responsible in the government's eyes for all money that passes through them. I'm happy to be corrected on this though...
posted by xdvesper at 9:51 PM on October 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
Not trying to downplay the privacy aspect of it - identity scams are clearly a major threat nowadays in a way they were not before (the naive days of yore when the phone book had the names, addresses and phone numbers of literally everyone in the city!). But yes, presumably you're on Zelle because you want people to be able to find you and pay you easily - it would be like being on LinkedIn and filling out a profile and then complaining that people could see what jobs you had in the past.
The bank account numbers are only known to Zelle, yeah they could be hacked, but... that's mostly inconsequential. If someone took your credit card number they could use it for fraud, and we let total strangers handle our credit cards all the time. The more important part of breaking into your account is your user ID and login / 2FA authentication, the bank account number itself does nothing. I could give out my bank account number to 100 people and all they could do is pay money to me.
There's nothing to suggest the bank's anti-fraud measures are any more or less stringent for transfers initiated in person, through their app, or through Zelle - it all shows up the same way to them, they are the ones physically executing the transfer, so they are equally responsible in the government's eyes for all money that passes through them. I'm happy to be corrected on this though...
posted by xdvesper at 9:51 PM on October 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
> I recently got a call from my "grandson" telling me he was driving his friend's car when he got into an accident in Boise, several hundred miles from where he lives. He was arrested and in jail for reasons, and he needed $7500 to bail him out of jail.
My Dad got a call from his "grandson" a few years ago. Within a couple of minutes he was talking to friendly Policeman Pete about how to get "grandson" bailed out (simply go down to Target and buy $4000 worth of gift cards, then call him with the numbers - P.S. Don't tell ANYONE what you are doing as this is super confidential.)
"Grandson" didn't even have to know the first thing about who he was or where, etc. Grandpa just helpfully supplied all those details for him. As I recall, "Grandpa - guess who this is?" was the opening gambit. Grandpa helpfully filled him in on his name, where he was, what he was doing there, etc etc etc etc.
Very clever, and Grandpa fell for it hook, line, and sinker. "How did he know Karlson's name? How did he know he was in New Mexico? How did he know what he was doing there? This guy knew everything about him - no WONDER I fell for it!" Err . . . .
We literally had to hide Grandpa's keys from him to stop him from helpfully rushing down to Target to buy those gift cards and even after we all agreed it was a scam he was still panting to get down to Target with his credit card to "save" his precious "grandson".
So that is what was possible without AI . . .
posted by flug at 10:08 PM on October 10, 2023 [5 favorites]
My Dad got a call from his "grandson" a few years ago. Within a couple of minutes he was talking to friendly Policeman Pete about how to get "grandson" bailed out (simply go down to Target and buy $4000 worth of gift cards, then call him with the numbers - P.S. Don't tell ANYONE what you are doing as this is super confidential.)
"Grandson" didn't even have to know the first thing about who he was or where, etc. Grandpa just helpfully supplied all those details for him. As I recall, "Grandpa - guess who this is?" was the opening gambit. Grandpa helpfully filled him in on his name, where he was, what he was doing there, etc etc etc etc.
Very clever, and Grandpa fell for it hook, line, and sinker. "How did he know Karlson's name? How did he know he was in New Mexico? How did he know what he was doing there? This guy knew everything about him - no WONDER I fell for it!" Err . . . .
We literally had to hide Grandpa's keys from him to stop him from helpfully rushing down to Target to buy those gift cards and even after we all agreed it was a scam he was still panting to get down to Target with his credit card to "save" his precious "grandson".
So that is what was possible without AI . . .
posted by flug at 10:08 PM on October 10, 2023 [5 favorites]
Regarding checks being somehow better, the only time I got really scammed is someone did a very convincing and high pressure imitation of a legit bank on a phone call and convinced my spouse to give them our account number. (Yes we were young and this was a while ago.) They created absolutely fake checks with no information on it whatsoever (not even correct bank information, blank signature.) containing only our names, the routing number, account number, and some random amount like $48.65, and started cashing these "checks" through some electronic means every month. And after I noticed a couple months later all our bank would do about it was close the checking account and open a new one. Very frustrating. Should have escalated it up at the bank but I only ended up out about $200 and didn't want to spend the time. This was about 20 years ago I really hope a bank would respond better to this now. The only time an error has been caught on a check I wrote (like forgot to sign it, forgot to write out the amount in words, etc.) is the business receiving it, never a bank. The only thing the bank cares about is the account number and the amount. The only thing you can maybe do with a check is stop payment if they haven't cashed it yet.
posted by thefool at 4:50 AM on October 11, 2023
posted by thefool at 4:50 AM on October 11, 2023
I guess I’m just suspicious of any and all Silicon Valley “innovations” the same way I’m suspicious of a revolutionary new way to cook pasta faster. I hate the big commercial banks (I use a credit union)
Small banks and credit unions are a major part of why our payment system is so behind. They don't have the money or expertise to modernize and lobby to keep everyone on the 1960s and 70s era approach.
posted by a robot made out of meat at 6:26 AM on October 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
Small banks and credit unions are a major part of why our payment system is so behind. They don't have the money or expertise to modernize and lobby to keep everyone on the 1960s and 70s era approach.
posted by a robot made out of meat at 6:26 AM on October 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
I could give out my bank account number to 100 people and all they could do is pay money to me.
This may not be entirely correct; there was recently a scam in my area where criminals created bank accounts at Discover Bank using false information and the name of an actual person holding an account at one of a number of major national banks.
...then, armed with the names & account numbers of customers at those other banks, they told Discover Bank to transfer $10,000 from "their" account at the other bank. Poof, $10K vaporized in minutes.
Now, fortunately for ME, my oft-maligned national bank alerted me, freaked out, chased Discover Bank and forced them to return my $10K after I signed a shitload of paperwork and affidavits stating I did not have an account with Discover Bank, never had an account with Discover Bank, and had never resided in Austin Texas. I've got a variety of ID-monitoring, and nothing suspicious has turned up so I have no idea where they got my name & bank account number from, but nothing else has been compromised thus far. I also don't know if the criminals got their $10K and Discover had to pay up instead or what because nobody wants to "potentially jeopardize an ongoing investigation". Hmph.
posted by aramaic at 9:01 AM on October 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
This may not be entirely correct; there was recently a scam in my area where criminals created bank accounts at Discover Bank using false information and the name of an actual person holding an account at one of a number of major national banks.
...then, armed with the names & account numbers of customers at those other banks, they told Discover Bank to transfer $10,000 from "their" account at the other bank. Poof, $10K vaporized in minutes.
Now, fortunately for ME, my oft-maligned national bank alerted me, freaked out, chased Discover Bank and forced them to return my $10K after I signed a shitload of paperwork and affidavits stating I did not have an account with Discover Bank, never had an account with Discover Bank, and had never resided in Austin Texas. I've got a variety of ID-monitoring, and nothing suspicious has turned up so I have no idea where they got my name & bank account number from, but nothing else has been compromised thus far. I also don't know if the criminals got their $10K and Discover had to pay up instead or what because nobody wants to "potentially jeopardize an ongoing investigation". Hmph.
posted by aramaic at 9:01 AM on October 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
Blaming the victims of crimes for their lack of moral purity is never the right thing.
I didn't think leopards would eat *my* face!
This condescending tut-tuting is so off base. If you are actively abetting the scam by, in essence, saying "I know this guy is doing something shady at best but as long as I get mine what's a little fraud amongst friends and if there is collateral damage for someone (presumably they thought simple tax evasion or some such), fuck 'em", you don't get to pull the moral high ground when you end up as collateral damage.
posted by kjs3 at 9:19 AM on October 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
I didn't think leopards would eat *my* face!
This condescending tut-tuting is so off base. If you are actively abetting the scam by, in essence, saying "I know this guy is doing something shady at best but as long as I get mine what's a little fraud amongst friends and if there is collateral damage for someone (presumably they thought simple tax evasion or some such), fuck 'em", you don't get to pull the moral high ground when you end up as collateral damage.
posted by kjs3 at 9:19 AM on October 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
Construction codes keep people alive, and prevent damage to (say) house foundations. They’re a boring thing to stick to but they’re important.
posted by clew at 10:54 AM on October 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by clew at 10:54 AM on October 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
I recently got a call from my "grandson"
I got one of those kinds of calls at the estate number. And while I'd like to know if the suspected AI voice was able to be done by the actual grandson is on social media along with if the public footprint was good enough to datamine you, I get answers i might want aren't gonna happen.
In my case the voice didn't match the local speech patterns and the grandson name(s) were wrong. They wanted me to 'send the money to the lawyer' after giving the 'grandson' a dressing down for being a screw up in their life. Eventually they figured out I was messing with 'em and the call devolved but they were kept on the phone in total almost 1/2 an hour so that's 1/2 of an hour they could not scam someone else.
With AI and data mining the scams can be automated at scale and done from another continents so this is gonna continue and try and tag the older people.
posted by rough ashlar at 10:08 AM on October 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
I got one of those kinds of calls at the estate number. And while I'd like to know if the suspected AI voice was able to be done by the actual grandson is on social media along with if the public footprint was good enough to datamine you, I get answers i might want aren't gonna happen.
In my case the voice didn't match the local speech patterns and the grandson name(s) were wrong. They wanted me to 'send the money to the lawyer' after giving the 'grandson' a dressing down for being a screw up in their life. Eventually they figured out I was messing with 'em and the call devolved but they were kept on the phone in total almost 1/2 an hour so that's 1/2 of an hour they could not scam someone else.
With AI and data mining the scams can be automated at scale and done from another continents so this is gonna continue and try and tag the older people.
posted by rough ashlar at 10:08 AM on October 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
My mother has received some of the fake grandson calls. Fortunately she's still pretty savvy, but more importantly her grandchildren are a lot younger than one might assume, given her age, and the oldest one is a few years away from being able to drive and thus unlikely to have been nabbed for speeding in New Mexico.
posted by It's Never Lurgi at 10:20 AM on October 12, 2023
posted by It's Never Lurgi at 10:20 AM on October 12, 2023
> My Dad got a call from his "grandson" a few years ago. Within a couple of minutes he was talking to friendly Policeman Pete about how to get "grandson" bailed out
BTW partly what made me personally less susceptible to this particular pitch is, my idea is that if Grandson is so stupid as to get himself arrested and thrown in jail somewhere, then there is absolutely no way in god's green earth I'm going to send anyone, even a perfectly legit court and police officer, some hundreds to thousands of dollars to bail grandson out overnight.
Grandson can cool his heels in jail overnight or for a few days even, or honestly for a few WEEKS even, if grandson doesn't have the means to bail himself out, while we talk to actual people, figure out what is actually going on, talk to lawyers, check to make sure things are on the up-and-up, etc. It's unpleasant to spend a couple days in jail but, unfortunately, lots of people do it and for some it actually has a salutary effect. Regardless, it's not going to be worth literal thousands to avoid it. Even if you're dealing with a REAL court, it's all too easy to lose your bail due to grandson being 10% dumber than previously suspected. (Ask me how I know - fortunately not a personal story, but a good friend . . . )
Anyway, that doesn't necessarily make me scam-proof by any means but one way of becoming slightly more scam-proof is to get it through your head that there is pretty much nothing out there that needs hundreds to thousands of dollars wired/gift carded/venmo-ed whatever RIGHT NOW because of some emergency or other.
Another thing that makes you slightly more scam-proof - as several have pointed out here - is to get yourself out of the mindset that it's a good idea to try to scam the scammers (or fleece the government a bit, etc) and quite OK to do things a bit underhandedly in order to do so. It's the underhanded/hidden/under-the-table aspect of this that allows scammers to take advantage of you without any real danger of being caught.
If someone wants you to do something under-the-table, #1. Why? and #2. Can I afford to simply lose/throw away forever whatever sum I am transferring using Questionable Method Zed? Because even if you are quite sure this is legit just this one time, there is always still that 1% or 5% or 10% chance something will go awry, with no possible way to get those dollars back.
posted by flug at 12:17 PM on October 12, 2023
BTW partly what made me personally less susceptible to this particular pitch is, my idea is that if Grandson is so stupid as to get himself arrested and thrown in jail somewhere, then there is absolutely no way in god's green earth I'm going to send anyone, even a perfectly legit court and police officer, some hundreds to thousands of dollars to bail grandson out overnight.
Grandson can cool his heels in jail overnight or for a few days even, or honestly for a few WEEKS even, if grandson doesn't have the means to bail himself out, while we talk to actual people, figure out what is actually going on, talk to lawyers, check to make sure things are on the up-and-up, etc. It's unpleasant to spend a couple days in jail but, unfortunately, lots of people do it and for some it actually has a salutary effect. Regardless, it's not going to be worth literal thousands to avoid it. Even if you're dealing with a REAL court, it's all too easy to lose your bail due to grandson being 10% dumber than previously suspected. (Ask me how I know - fortunately not a personal story, but a good friend . . . )
Anyway, that doesn't necessarily make me scam-proof by any means but one way of becoming slightly more scam-proof is to get it through your head that there is pretty much nothing out there that needs hundreds to thousands of dollars wired/gift carded/venmo-ed whatever RIGHT NOW because of some emergency or other.
Another thing that makes you slightly more scam-proof - as several have pointed out here - is to get yourself out of the mindset that it's a good idea to try to scam the scammers (or fleece the government a bit, etc) and quite OK to do things a bit underhandedly in order to do so. It's the underhanded/hidden/under-the-table aspect of this that allows scammers to take advantage of you without any real danger of being caught.
If someone wants you to do something under-the-table, #1. Why? and #2. Can I afford to simply lose/throw away forever whatever sum I am transferring using Questionable Method Zed? Because even if you are quite sure this is legit just this one time, there is always still that 1% or 5% or 10% chance something will go awry, with no possible way to get those dollars back.
posted by flug at 12:17 PM on October 12, 2023
I almost accidentally Venmo’d the massage therapist eight grand yesterday. She may start getting paid by check going forward. 🙃
posted by hilaryjade at 3:59 PM on October 12, 2023
posted by hilaryjade at 3:59 PM on October 12, 2023
« Older “Ride Like the Wind” | For Your Paleo Diet Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
This has been done many times when it comes to real estate, where big amounts of money change hands. All it takes is one fake email "Oh, please send the money to this account instead" and the whole down payment is gone. But as real estate companies get wise to this, scammers start to shift to other businesses that handle smaller sums of money.
posted by kschang at 7:49 AM on October 10, 2023 [5 favorites]