Patagonia just designed its warmest coat ever, and it’s made from trash
October 25, 2023 11:35 AM Subscribe
Recycling is great and all, but I wonder how much energy; i.e., carbon, it took to produce this jacket compared to a standard, new materials one.
posted by ZaneJ. at 11:46 AM on October 25, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by ZaneJ. at 11:46 AM on October 25, 2023 [10 favorites]
ZaneJ. - that sort of comparison is a little complex to get right - you'd also want to factor energy to make the materials (with an argument for the the re-used plastic being "free" in the equation) and you'd want to know the finished products' longevity and durability. If the recycled one lasts longer than a standard under normal usage conditions, then you may have to add the materials and production costs of more than one standard.
posted by BlueBlueElectricBlue at 11:55 AM on October 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by BlueBlueElectricBlue at 11:55 AM on October 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
I think you'd also have to give the jacket credit for the carbon spent taking plastic out of the ocean, a thing we should be doing even if we don't plan to make jackets out of it.
posted by jacquilynne at 11:58 AM on October 25, 2023 [12 favorites]
posted by jacquilynne at 11:58 AM on October 25, 2023 [12 favorites]
Leather boot experts, Rose Anvil took a bison boot from Patagonia that was branded as a "work boot," cut it in half to examine the materials. They suggest in the video that a part of what ought to be considered when thinking of sustainability in a product is its durability. Based on Rose Anvil's own knowledge and experience with leather boots, they break down why Patagonia's boot wouldn't last long in "work" conditions. Comments on the video also suggest that Patagonia's branding on this particular product are misleading.
posted by honor the agreement at 11:59 AM on October 25, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by honor the agreement at 11:59 AM on October 25, 2023 [9 favorites]
I'm glad that the 1% of people with the highest income will feel good about their environmental impact as they continue to double the emissions of the lowest 50%.
posted by signal at 11:59 AM on October 25, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by signal at 11:59 AM on October 25, 2023 [11 favorites]
What's more impressive to me than a specific product like this is that in a world where most companies merely engage in greenwashing, Patagonia walks the walk in terms of ownership and anti-growth.
posted by splitpeasoup at 12:06 PM on October 25, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by splitpeasoup at 12:06 PM on October 25, 2023 [4 favorites]
> At $899, it happens to be the brand’s warmest-ever outerwear and contains no toxic “forever chemicals” in its weatherproof exterior.
If it's inaccessible to the poor it's neither radical nor revolutionary.
posted by AlSweigart at 12:12 PM on October 25, 2023 [25 favorites]
If it's inaccessible to the poor it's neither radical nor revolutionary.
posted by AlSweigart at 12:12 PM on October 25, 2023 [25 favorites]
The idea of mining the oceans for microscopic plastic with which to make luxury clothing is a staggering concept. But then all our own bodies are already riddled with microscopic plastic that it'll be incorporated into our DNA, if it isn't already - perhaps we'll all eventually evolve into trash talking foldable, spinnable and pre-mutilated single useless immortals. Which is so far far beyond cruelly ironic that we'll have invent a whole new language and vocabulary to make sense of all of it. What a way to go.
posted by y2karl at 12:12 PM on October 25, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by y2karl at 12:12 PM on October 25, 2023 [7 favorites]
Recycling is great and all, but I wonder how much energy; i.e., carbon, it took to produce this jacket compared to a standard, new materials one.
I think it's important to pioneer proof of concepts like this, because we could be doing things like autonomous solar powered robots (perhaps even without the impact of batteries + solar) and just letting them collect plastics and help clean the ocean with some super basic and relatively dumb bots that only work when there's enough sunlight to do so.
And being able to convert waste plastic and effective reuse and recycling into something useful is a good idea.
I'm glad that the 1% of people with the highest income will feel good about their environmental impact as they continue to double the emissions of the lowest 50%.
On the other hand, there's this. If someone can afford Patagonia adventure gear there's a basically non-zero chance they're not also flying or driving around having some rather luxurious adventures.
At face value any theoretical net benefits of carbon offset is basically wiped out just by jetting off to Aspen for some fresh pow or a thousand miles in a hip Sprinter camper van, or, god forbid, going heli-boarding or skiing.
I have a lot of friends that are at heart very ecologically minded and take the "reduce" part of "reduce, reuse, recycle" a lot more seriously than like 90% of the population of the developed world, but then they still go burn a ton of fuel to go surfing, camping or skiing or whatever.
I have mixed feelings about Patagonia gear and I may just be being greenwashed, but they do a lot of total product life stuff and repairs that basically no other outdoor gear company does. It's never been something that I can afford but I've had a few things via thrift stores and hand-me-downs and their gear generally doesn't suck.
posted by loquacious at 12:12 PM on October 25, 2023 [18 favorites]
I think it's important to pioneer proof of concepts like this, because we could be doing things like autonomous solar powered robots (perhaps even without the impact of batteries + solar) and just letting them collect plastics and help clean the ocean with some super basic and relatively dumb bots that only work when there's enough sunlight to do so.
And being able to convert waste plastic and effective reuse and recycling into something useful is a good idea.
I'm glad that the 1% of people with the highest income will feel good about their environmental impact as they continue to double the emissions of the lowest 50%.
On the other hand, there's this. If someone can afford Patagonia adventure gear there's a basically non-zero chance they're not also flying or driving around having some rather luxurious adventures.
At face value any theoretical net benefits of carbon offset is basically wiped out just by jetting off to Aspen for some fresh pow or a thousand miles in a hip Sprinter camper van, or, god forbid, going heli-boarding or skiing.
I have a lot of friends that are at heart very ecologically minded and take the "reduce" part of "reduce, reuse, recycle" a lot more seriously than like 90% of the population of the developed world, but then they still go burn a ton of fuel to go surfing, camping or skiing or whatever.
I have mixed feelings about Patagonia gear and I may just be being greenwashed, but they do a lot of total product life stuff and repairs that basically no other outdoor gear company does. It's never been something that I can afford but I've had a few things via thrift stores and hand-me-downs and their gear generally doesn't suck.
posted by loquacious at 12:12 PM on October 25, 2023 [18 favorites]
Agreed, splitpeasoup, that Patagonia has been actually walking the walk for some time now. I have purchased in the past few years a backpack, several smaller bags, board shorts, and an exercise tank top, all made from recycled materials and plastics.
I don't agree with mcstayinskool that Patagonia's products are not priced for most people. Sure this coat is a little more expensive, but that is actually what a lot of mid-range heavy coats cost - you would be hard-pressed to find a warm enough coat for Canadian winters for less than $300/400. My Columbia coat was about $450 USD in 2018 and that was on sale!
The items I have bought that were made from recycled materials were all priced similarly to other outdoor stores and comparable brands, like MEC and Sail here at home. The quality is great and the exercise top has survived a LOT of washes and still looks and feels new. The backpack, so far, is comfortable and durable.
Whether they are "as good" as other specific items from other brands seems besides the point. My time is precious, and I like being able to do a quick comparison on price and style, and rely on Patagonia's overall mission as being aligned with my attempts to do the best I can as a late-capitalist consumer.
posted by dazedandconfused at 12:15 PM on October 25, 2023 [7 favorites]
I don't agree with mcstayinskool that Patagonia's products are not priced for most people. Sure this coat is a little more expensive, but that is actually what a lot of mid-range heavy coats cost - you would be hard-pressed to find a warm enough coat for Canadian winters for less than $300/400. My Columbia coat was about $450 USD in 2018 and that was on sale!
The items I have bought that were made from recycled materials were all priced similarly to other outdoor stores and comparable brands, like MEC and Sail here at home. The quality is great and the exercise top has survived a LOT of washes and still looks and feels new. The backpack, so far, is comfortable and durable.
Whether they are "as good" as other specific items from other brands seems besides the point. My time is precious, and I like being able to do a quick comparison on price and style, and rely on Patagonia's overall mission as being aligned with my attempts to do the best I can as a late-capitalist consumer.
posted by dazedandconfused at 12:15 PM on October 25, 2023 [7 favorites]
Anyone who thinks Patagonia's (or Canada Goose's or North Face's) outdoor wear is limited to the kind of people who take expensive adventure vacations has never been on a city bus full of federal public servants in Ottawa in February.
Not that Canadian public servants aren't in a pretty rarified category of privilege on a global scale, but we're hardly the 1%.
posted by jacquilynne at 12:35 PM on October 25, 2023 [22 favorites]
Not that Canadian public servants aren't in a pretty rarified category of privilege on a global scale, but we're hardly the 1%.
posted by jacquilynne at 12:35 PM on October 25, 2023 [22 favorites]
new Stormshadow Parka
Interesting branding. Has Snake Eyes been briefed on COBRA's new cold weather capabilities?
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 12:38 PM on October 25, 2023 [36 favorites]
Interesting branding. Has Snake Eyes been briefed on COBRA's new cold weather capabilities?
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 12:38 PM on October 25, 2023 [36 favorites]
With regard to the expense: once upon a time smartphones and electric cars were also priced exclusively for the 1%. If this turns out to be something that can be replicated and used more widely, costs will come down over time.
posted by rednikki at 12:41 PM on October 25, 2023 [18 favorites]
posted by rednikki at 12:41 PM on October 25, 2023 [18 favorites]
you would be hard-pressed to find a warm enough coat for Canadian winters for less than $300/400
I survived 2 winters in Winnipeg in an $80 Uniqlo down jacket I brought back from Japan. My winter coat in Toronto for the last 8 years has been a $70 Uniqlo ultralight down jacket. I shake my head whenever I see anyone in a Canada Goose or other similarly priced winter jacket because it is so unnecessary.
I've got a pair of cycling shoes made with recycled ocean plastic. I'm not sure what the deal is with ocean plastic as opposed to all the other waste plastic we have lying around but to the extent that outdoor gear is using synthetic materials it may as well be recycled stuff as opposed to virgin plastic.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 12:47 PM on October 25, 2023 [8 favorites]
I survived 2 winters in Winnipeg in an $80 Uniqlo down jacket I brought back from Japan. My winter coat in Toronto for the last 8 years has been a $70 Uniqlo ultralight down jacket. I shake my head whenever I see anyone in a Canada Goose or other similarly priced winter jacket because it is so unnecessary.
I've got a pair of cycling shoes made with recycled ocean plastic. I'm not sure what the deal is with ocean plastic as opposed to all the other waste plastic we have lying around but to the extent that outdoor gear is using synthetic materials it may as well be recycled stuff as opposed to virgin plastic.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 12:47 PM on October 25, 2023 [8 favorites]
> At $899, it happens to be the brand’s warmest-ever outerwear and contains no toxic “forever chemicals” in its weatherproof exterior.
If it's inaccessible to the poor it's neither radical nor revolutionary.
Good thing literally nobody called it that? The words "radical" and "revolutionary" appear nowhere in the article. What it is is "warm" and "does not contain certain chemicals."
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 12:48 PM on October 25, 2023 [38 favorites]
Just how low cost is the one upsman warm-coats-shorts-in-winter-wearing-Minnesota-Canada-Man pissing contest going to go?
posted by djseafood at 12:59 PM on October 25, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by djseafood at 12:59 PM on October 25, 2023 [5 favorites]
I survived 2 winters in Winnipeg in an $80 Uniqlo down jacket I brought back from Japan.
"I lived for three months in a rolled up newspaper in a septic tank."
posted by The Bellman at 1:17 PM on October 25, 2023 [8 favorites]
"I lived for three months in a rolled up newspaper in a septic tank."
posted by The Bellman at 1:17 PM on October 25, 2023 [8 favorites]
Warmer coats are just the thing we all need as global temperatures continue to rise.
posted by Faint of Butt at 1:38 PM on October 25, 2023
posted by Faint of Butt at 1:38 PM on October 25, 2023
For those who are automatically discounting this news because Patagonia makes expensive clothing, it's important to note that there are two additional companies mentioned in TFA.
Bionic, who collect and process the oceanic plastic into reusable fibers and Gore-tex, who turn those fibers into the waterproof/breathable fabrics that make Patagonia clothes so expensive.
It is conceivable that if Patagonia can make this process profitable, other companies might follow suit,bringing the price down.
It seems that street plastic may be harder to use because it takes longer to clean., plus cleaning up ocean plastic is newsworthy.
posted by OHenryPacey at 1:43 PM on October 25, 2023 [16 favorites]
Bionic, who collect and process the oceanic plastic into reusable fibers and Gore-tex, who turn those fibers into the waterproof/breathable fabrics that make Patagonia clothes so expensive.
It is conceivable that if Patagonia can make this process profitable, other companies might follow suit,bringing the price down.
It seems that street plastic may be harder to use because it takes longer to clean., plus cleaning up ocean plastic is newsworthy.
posted by OHenryPacey at 1:43 PM on October 25, 2023 [16 favorites]
If it's inaccessible to the poor it's neither radical nor revolutionary.
Commentary like this is why I'm choosing to stay both warm and green by encasing myself in a thick layer of active compost all winter long.
posted by phunniemee at 1:49 PM on October 25, 2023 [24 favorites]
Commentary like this is why I'm choosing to stay both warm and green by encasing myself in a thick layer of active compost all winter long.
posted by phunniemee at 1:49 PM on October 25, 2023 [24 favorites]
I hope VCs wear it, since they're trash too.
posted by abucci at 1:51 PM on October 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by abucci at 1:51 PM on October 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
Patagonia’s hemp work pants last YEARS longer than carhartt or similar canvas pant brand. They also contain no plastic. I wear two pairs in rotation, 6 days a week. I’m on year two with one pair, year three with the other. They cost $90. This amortizes to what, $3.75 and $2.50 a month. This is a pretty good deal.
Longevity counts in cost calculations, especially if you slow your fashion cycle down.
posted by furnace.heart at 1:59 PM on October 25, 2023 [22 favorites]
Longevity counts in cost calculations, especially if you slow your fashion cycle down.
posted by furnace.heart at 1:59 PM on October 25, 2023 [22 favorites]
Anyone who thinks Patagonia's (or Canada Goose's or North Face's) outdoor wear is limited to the kind of people who take expensive adventure vacations has never been on a city bus full of federal public servants in Ottawa in February.
For whatever it's worth, I definitely do not think this. I'm poor as dirt and I've had some pretty expensive outdoor clothes, mostly hand-me-downs and thrift store finds. This means it's often pretty threadbare or I've been carefully wearing it and repairing it for years. It's about the time of year in the PNW where I start wearing and living in a relatively budget REI rain pants and a Volcom snowboard jacket I use as a rain shell for the next, oh, 4-5 months. That Volcom jacket was like 500+ brand new but I got it out of a free clothes rack and it's getting pretty beat up.
But Patagonia's target market and price definitely does skew and cater towards people that can afford to actually use it for more than commuting to work on transit.
posted by loquacious at 2:03 PM on October 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
For whatever it's worth, I definitely do not think this. I'm poor as dirt and I've had some pretty expensive outdoor clothes, mostly hand-me-downs and thrift store finds. This means it's often pretty threadbare or I've been carefully wearing it and repairing it for years. It's about the time of year in the PNW where I start wearing and living in a relatively budget REI rain pants and a Volcom snowboard jacket I use as a rain shell for the next, oh, 4-5 months. That Volcom jacket was like 500+ brand new but I got it out of a free clothes rack and it's getting pretty beat up.
But Patagonia's target market and price definitely does skew and cater towards people that can afford to actually use it for more than commuting to work on transit.
posted by loquacious at 2:03 PM on October 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
Just how low cost is the one upsman warm-coats-shorts-in-winter-wearing-Minnesota-Canada-Man pissing contest going to go?
Related. FWIW, none of my relatives in Winnipeg or Northern Ontario have felt the need for more expensive luxury outdoor wear and certainly not Canada Goose. Some of them don't even own winter boots.
Anyone who thinks Patagonia's (or Canada Goose's or North Face's) outdoor wear is limited to the kind of people
To be fair, Canada Goose is a luxury brand with its entry level coats in the $500 to $750 Canadian range which puts them under Patagonia's Stormshadow (which is the eye watering $1240 Canadian). Other outdoor wear companies (L.L. Bean, Patagonia, North Face, Columbia, Fjallraven, etc.) offer coats at lower price points via sales and outlets but do also offer warranties which is good if you're a "buy it once" kind of person.
posted by Ashwagandha at 2:06 PM on October 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
Related. FWIW, none of my relatives in Winnipeg or Northern Ontario have felt the need for more expensive luxury outdoor wear and certainly not Canada Goose. Some of them don't even own winter boots.
Anyone who thinks Patagonia's (or Canada Goose's or North Face's) outdoor wear is limited to the kind of people
To be fair, Canada Goose is a luxury brand with its entry level coats in the $500 to $750 Canadian range which puts them under Patagonia's Stormshadow (which is the eye watering $1240 Canadian). Other outdoor wear companies (L.L. Bean, Patagonia, North Face, Columbia, Fjallraven, etc.) offer coats at lower price points via sales and outlets but do also offer warranties which is good if you're a "buy it once" kind of person.
posted by Ashwagandha at 2:06 PM on October 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
Honestly though you should really be layering anyways rather than just wearing one big coat.
posted by Ashwagandha at 2:13 PM on October 25, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by Ashwagandha at 2:13 PM on October 25, 2023 [7 favorites]
I'm sure these coats will have as much of a positive impact on the environment as luxury electric cars have had.
posted by signal at 2:13 PM on October 25, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by signal at 2:13 PM on October 25, 2023 [4 favorites]
...do also offer warranties which is good if you're a "buy it once" kind of person.
Yes, this. Patagonia apparel underscores the "Sam Vimes’s ‘Boots’ Theory of Socio-economic Unfairness".
Yes, this. Patagonia apparel underscores the "Sam Vimes’s ‘Boots’ Theory of Socio-economic Unfairness".
A man who could afford fifty dollars had a pair of boots that’d still be keeping his feet dry in ten years’ time, while the poor man who could only afford cheap boots would have spent a hundred dollars on boots in the same time and would still have wet feet. Full quote.posted by NailsTheCat at 2:20 PM on October 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
you would be hard-pressed to find a warm enough coat for Canadian winters for less than $300/400
I disagree, having never paid anything close to this for a decent winter jacket in my life, despite living relatively far north compared to most Canadians (I mean, I'm not in the arctic or anything, but Edmonton is hardly southern Ontario).
I don't think Patagonia is quite as rarefied as some people are making it out to be, and you can definitely get a good deal if you find last year's style at Winners, but it is not strictly necessary to spend hundreds of dollars on a good winter coat, especially if you layer a sweater underneath.
posted by asnider at 2:28 PM on October 25, 2023 [4 favorites]
I disagree, having never paid anything close to this for a decent winter jacket in my life, despite living relatively far north compared to most Canadians (I mean, I'm not in the arctic or anything, but Edmonton is hardly southern Ontario).
I don't think Patagonia is quite as rarefied as some people are making it out to be, and you can definitely get a good deal if you find last year's style at Winners, but it is not strictly necessary to spend hundreds of dollars on a good winter coat, especially if you layer a sweater underneath.
posted by asnider at 2:28 PM on October 25, 2023 [4 favorites]
Closeup of the Patagonia Stormshadow Parka care label.
posted by fairmettle at 2:32 PM on October 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by fairmettle at 2:32 PM on October 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
How does Costa Rica produce 4 tons of plastic waste a day?
posted by Ideefixe at 2:33 PM on October 25, 2023
posted by Ideefixe at 2:33 PM on October 25, 2023
you would be hard-pressed to find a warm enough coat for Canadian winters for less than $300/400
Statements like this really drive home the point that people can really live in separate worlds. Not just in access to resources, but also in how their access to resources shapes their perception of what is normal, desirable, or even necessary.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 2:34 PM on October 25, 2023 [14 favorites]
Statements like this really drive home the point that people can really live in separate worlds. Not just in access to resources, but also in how their access to resources shapes their perception of what is normal, desirable, or even necessary.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 2:34 PM on October 25, 2023 [14 favorites]
Statements like this really drive home the point that people can really live in separate worlds. Not just in access to resources, but also in how their access to resources shapes their perception of what is normal, desirable, or even necessary.
Cold (and hot) is also a perception-based (I guess to the point that you get freezing based injury) so comparing across people is kind of difficult, given differences in weight, perception, health, age, ability to tolerate being uncomfortable, time spent outdoors, and many other factors.
Not only that, but in the Vimes theory that cost is a directly appreciable factor in quality. For the most part, it is not.
posted by The_Vegetables at 2:43 PM on October 25, 2023
Cold (and hot) is also a perception-based (I guess to the point that you get freezing based injury) so comparing across people is kind of difficult, given differences in weight, perception, health, age, ability to tolerate being uncomfortable, time spent outdoors, and many other factors.
Not only that, but in the Vimes theory that cost is a directly appreciable factor in quality. For the most part, it is not.
posted by The_Vegetables at 2:43 PM on October 25, 2023
Statements like this really drive home the point that people can really live in separate worlds.
The downmarket version of the trash parka is to wad up pages of the Red Eye and shove them into the lining of your cheap secondhand coat.
posted by phunniemee at 2:54 PM on October 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
The downmarket version of the trash parka is to wad up pages of the Red Eye and shove them into the lining of your cheap secondhand coat.
posted by phunniemee at 2:54 PM on October 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
Warmer coats are just the thing we all need as global temperatures continue to rise.
But, yes, actually? Climate change means more extreme weather, which sometimes actually means colder winters (or at least stretches of extreme cold in otherwise milder winters).
posted by asnider at 2:56 PM on October 25, 2023 [16 favorites]
But, yes, actually? Climate change means more extreme weather, which sometimes actually means colder winters (or at least stretches of extreme cold in otherwise milder winters).
posted by asnider at 2:56 PM on October 25, 2023 [16 favorites]
Vollebak — equally expensive — has a small range of stuff made from "garbage".
posted by dobbs at 3:12 PM on October 25, 2023
posted by dobbs at 3:12 PM on October 25, 2023
The other big function for recycled plastic, as I understood it, was making berms for rails because the method of recycling plastic could only make disgusting stink plastic. So this is a bonus! Although I have not smelt this coat yet.
Also I have a Patagonia down coat for the chilly winters here. It was great when I was a recent import to central Europe’s brisk winters, but it’s looking a bit old now and the repair stuff seems very American-centric.
posted by The River Ivel at 3:42 PM on October 25, 2023
Also I have a Patagonia down coat for the chilly winters here. It was great when I was a recent import to central Europe’s brisk winters, but it’s looking a bit old now and the repair stuff seems very American-centric.
posted by The River Ivel at 3:42 PM on October 25, 2023
TMI but true: I have two weeks worth of Patagonia underwear that I’ve owned, and worn (they’re my only underwear) since around 2001.
They still look new.
posted by aramaic at 4:06 PM on October 25, 2023 [4 favorites]
They still look new.
posted by aramaic at 4:06 PM on October 25, 2023 [4 favorites]
How does Costa Rica produce 4 tons of plastic waste a day?
Seriously? That's less than 1 gramme per person per day. About 1/36th of an ounce. Weigh your plastic waste and see what it comes out to. I reckon my reclaimable household waste is about 3-4 ozs per day. Never mind what supermarkets, retailers etc get through.
posted by biffa at 5:19 PM on October 25, 2023 [4 favorites]
Seriously? That's less than 1 gramme per person per day. About 1/36th of an ounce. Weigh your plastic waste and see what it comes out to. I reckon my reclaimable household waste is about 3-4 ozs per day. Never mind what supermarkets, retailers etc get through.
posted by biffa at 5:19 PM on October 25, 2023 [4 favorites]
Yea, I worked outside in the winter in Chicago for a couple years. I managed to not work during the absolute coldest weather, (the job ended in January each year) but layering was so far superior to any heavy coat that it's not even close.
If I had an office job where I needed to dress lightly under a coat for an overheated office, maybe having a single, super insulated coat would make sense.
But otherwise, layers of regular old wool, cotton and a windproof shell of some kind was just more comfortable and more warming. Wool beanie hat over the ears AND a sweatshirt hood over it. It was a dirty job (garden center) so all my clothing was stuff I didn't care about ruining. If you're in the market for merino or other wool sweaters, I have found some on Ebay for like $20... not in perfect condition, but I used them as base layers, and years later I still have and use them. I sometimes sleep in a Smartwool base layer sweater with nothing underneath. I love wool so much that I have even bought myself woolen underwear. I live in wool in the winter. It's the best fabric for cold, period. And the days of super scratchy wool are pretty much gone unless you go out looking for it.
I even wear thin wool socks in the summer. Wool is the best.
EDIT: Yes, I'm aware that not everything called merino is really merino, and cashmere is almost all NOT cashmere. But it works. I don't really care which sheep it came from. Just don't spend a huge amount on it.
posted by SoberHighland at 6:16 PM on October 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
If I had an office job where I needed to dress lightly under a coat for an overheated office, maybe having a single, super insulated coat would make sense.
But otherwise, layers of regular old wool, cotton and a windproof shell of some kind was just more comfortable and more warming. Wool beanie hat over the ears AND a sweatshirt hood over it. It was a dirty job (garden center) so all my clothing was stuff I didn't care about ruining. If you're in the market for merino or other wool sweaters, I have found some on Ebay for like $20... not in perfect condition, but I used them as base layers, and years later I still have and use them. I sometimes sleep in a Smartwool base layer sweater with nothing underneath. I love wool so much that I have even bought myself woolen underwear. I live in wool in the winter. It's the best fabric for cold, period. And the days of super scratchy wool are pretty much gone unless you go out looking for it.
I even wear thin wool socks in the summer. Wool is the best.
EDIT: Yes, I'm aware that not everything called merino is really merino, and cashmere is almost all NOT cashmere. But it works. I don't really care which sheep it came from. Just don't spend a huge amount on it.
posted by SoberHighland at 6:16 PM on October 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
The coolest thing in the article is them pushing Gore Tex to find waterproof coatings without forever chemicals . That has all sorts of uses.
posted by caviar2d2 at 6:30 PM on October 25, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by caviar2d2 at 6:30 PM on October 25, 2023 [9 favorites]
FWIW, none of my relatives in Winnipeg or Northern Ontario have felt the need for more expensive luxury outdoor wear and certainly not Canada Goose. Some of them don't even own winter boots.
I'm not sure if this means that they think nothing of heading out into miserable weather in cheap and simple clothes, or if it means that they spend their winters moving from climate-controlled home to climate-controlled car, never spending time outside if they don't want to, all at a (financial and environmental) cost that dwarfs that of a fancy jacket and boots.
posted by alexei at 6:33 PM on October 25, 2023 [4 favorites]
I'm not sure if this means that they think nothing of heading out into miserable weather in cheap and simple clothes, or if it means that they spend their winters moving from climate-controlled home to climate-controlled car, never spending time outside if they don't want to, all at a (financial and environmental) cost that dwarfs that of a fancy jacket and boots.
posted by alexei at 6:33 PM on October 25, 2023 [4 favorites]
I decided not to have kids when I was younger and more convinced it was my personal responsibility to reduce my ecological footprint.
Is it OK if I buy a Patagonia product? (moot point - I can't afford it anyway!)
posted by rebent at 6:49 PM on October 25, 2023 [5 favorites]
Is it OK if I buy a Patagonia product? (moot point - I can't afford it anyway!)
posted by rebent at 6:49 PM on October 25, 2023 [5 favorites]
The coolest thing in the article is them pushing Gore Tex to find waterproof coatings without forever chemicals . That has all sorts of uses.
Gore Tex was doing this already. They no longer make their Shakedry material which was apparently well loved by cyclists and UL hikers although clothes incorporating the material are still being produced with the remaining stock they have. But once they're gone they're gone so people are buying extras because there's every likelihood that it'll take some time before they can come up with a material that works as well.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 6:50 PM on October 25, 2023
Gore Tex was doing this already. They no longer make their Shakedry material which was apparently well loved by cyclists and UL hikers although clothes incorporating the material are still being produced with the remaining stock they have. But once they're gone they're gone so people are buying extras because there's every likelihood that it'll take some time before they can come up with a material that works as well.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 6:50 PM on October 25, 2023
Alexei: You can get a good enough ski jacket for WELL under those prices at Mountain Equipment Coop or similar for well under $300 from a brand like Columbia. Couple that with a sweater or two and a good hat and gloves you'll be fine; that is what I wear down to about -40 C here in Kelowna.
posted by Canageek at 6:51 PM on October 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Canageek at 6:51 PM on October 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
Forgot to say: and I've never owned a car. Yes, I move from climate control to climate control: Apartment to Bus to Work, but I don't think that does a lot of damage to the enviorment, and I try to keep the thermostat as low as possible in the winter.
posted by Canageek at 6:52 PM on October 25, 2023
posted by Canageek at 6:52 PM on October 25, 2023
A large part of the problem with plastics pollution is from the nurdles that are the basis for the “spun” fiber. They are small (roughly the size of a lentil), lightweight, and often spill from their shipping containers and make their way to oceans pretty quickly.
My point is that even those items made from recycled materials start from nurdles, which is Not Good.
This article goes into more detail (apologies for the Grauniad link, it was the best I could find quickly).
posted by dbmcd at 7:46 PM on October 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
My point is that even those items made from recycled materials start from nurdles, which is Not Good.
This article goes into more detail (apologies for the Grauniad link, it was the best I could find quickly).
posted by dbmcd at 7:46 PM on October 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
I buy patagonia via ebay when I can. There is no perfect company but they seem to try. A combo of surplus stuff and used fancy stuff and I can hike or snowshoe through almost anything.
It has gotten much harder to find bargains in used clothing, on ebay/posh/whatevz and REI’s resale outside of garage days is expensive too.
I wont spend 1k on a coat for myself, but I aint mad that they built this coat. Its not a designer flamethrower or anything like that.
posted by drowsy at 7:58 PM on October 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
It has gotten much harder to find bargains in used clothing, on ebay/posh/whatevz and REI’s resale outside of garage days is expensive too.
I wont spend 1k on a coat for myself, but I aint mad that they built this coat. Its not a designer flamethrower or anything like that.
posted by drowsy at 7:58 PM on October 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
we could be doing things like autonomous solar powered robots (perhaps even without the impact of batteries + solar) and just letting them collect plastics and help clean the ocean with some super basic and relatively dumb bots that only work when there's enough sunlight to do so
Right, because what the oceans absolutely need added to them is endless amounts of sunken e-waste from failed plastic-collector bots. Perhaps we could add a fleet of failed-collector-bot-collecting bots while we're at it.
I'm betting that assorted archaea will have sorted out ways to make a comfortable living off all our waste plastics well before we even get close to organizing ourselves skilfully enough to stop dumping them into every conceivable niche.
Give this planet a thousandth of its four and a half billion year history to chew on them and plastics will show up occasionally in the fossil record, but I don't expect they'll do so in anything like the quantities that coal and oil have.
We'll be long gone by then. If it isn't actually our plastics that kill us off it will be one of any number of astonishingly boneheaded ways we keep on finding to undermine our own viability as a species.
posted by flabdablet at 7:59 PM on October 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
Right, because what the oceans absolutely need added to them is endless amounts of sunken e-waste from failed plastic-collector bots. Perhaps we could add a fleet of failed-collector-bot-collecting bots while we're at it.
I'm betting that assorted archaea will have sorted out ways to make a comfortable living off all our waste plastics well before we even get close to organizing ourselves skilfully enough to stop dumping them into every conceivable niche.
Give this planet a thousandth of its four and a half billion year history to chew on them and plastics will show up occasionally in the fossil record, but I don't expect they'll do so in anything like the quantities that coal and oil have.
We'll be long gone by then. If it isn't actually our plastics that kill us off it will be one of any number of astonishingly boneheaded ways we keep on finding to undermine our own viability as a species.
posted by flabdablet at 7:59 PM on October 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
I'm not sure what the deal is with ocean plastic as opposed to all the other waste plastic we have lying around
I wonder if it's go to do with uv exposure to plastic because it's sitting in the sun all day, and if the photodegradation of polymers makes it somehow easier to process?
posted by Jon_Evil at 9:53 PM on October 25, 2023
I wonder if it's go to do with uv exposure to plastic because it's sitting in the sun all day, and if the photodegradation of polymers makes it somehow easier to process?
posted by Jon_Evil at 9:53 PM on October 25, 2023
I'm pleased that some companies like Patagonia make top-notch gear, and are mindful of the sustainability of well-made, durable and repairable items. And that they are doing experiments like this coat made from ocean plastic; innovation has to start somewhere.
Not at my price-point unfortunately, but I don't much Iike puffy coats anyway.
you would be hard-pressed to find a warm enough coat for Canadian winters for less than $300/400
If you only shop at brand-name flagship stores or upscale malls, then maybe. I lean towards winter coats that are rugged waterproof shells with removable liners. They wear like iron and promote layering. Not quite fashionable, but they can be found for CDN$200 or so, if you can live without GoreTex. Mtn Equip Coop, Mark's, etc.
For function, sustainability and durability at the lowest possible cost, it's hard to beat mil surplus. My winter bbqing/yardwork coat is a 40 yr old Cdn army cotton winter coat with liner. $45, about 2 years ago. If only they'd become trendy again...
posted by Artful Codger at 6:13 AM on October 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
Not at my price-point unfortunately, but I don't much Iike puffy coats anyway.
you would be hard-pressed to find a warm enough coat for Canadian winters for less than $300/400
If you only shop at brand-name flagship stores or upscale malls, then maybe. I lean towards winter coats that are rugged waterproof shells with removable liners. They wear like iron and promote layering. Not quite fashionable, but they can be found for CDN$200 or so, if you can live without GoreTex. Mtn Equip Coop, Mark's, etc.
For function, sustainability and durability at the lowest possible cost, it's hard to beat mil surplus. My winter bbqing/yardwork coat is a 40 yr old Cdn army cotton winter coat with liner. $45, about 2 years ago. If only they'd become trendy again...
posted by Artful Codger at 6:13 AM on October 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
Patagonia walks the walk in terms of ownership and anti-growth.
do they though? they transferred voting shares to a trust they control, then transferred the rest to a non profit they control. they gave up nothing, really, can draw big salaries from the non profit and can dispose of the assets as they please. what this non profit does or will do is anyone’s guess. besides get absolutely incredible pr for the patagonia brand.
posted by dis_integration at 6:17 AM on October 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
do they though? they transferred voting shares to a trust they control, then transferred the rest to a non profit they control. they gave up nothing, really, can draw big salaries from the non profit and can dispose of the assets as they please. what this non profit does or will do is anyone’s guess. besides get absolutely incredible pr for the patagonia brand.
posted by dis_integration at 6:17 AM on October 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
Anything that makes rich people feel like they're doing "something for the environment" as they perpetuate the system that benefits them while fucking everything and everyone else is always a net negative.
posted by signal at 6:31 AM on October 26, 2023
posted by signal at 6:31 AM on October 26, 2023
Anything that makes rich people feel like they're doing "something for the environment" as they perpetuate the system that benefits them while fucking everything and everyone else is always a net negative.
What's the alternative? We had that in the past- rich people do whatever they want and don't care about the consequences. I'll take 'doing something' over 'doing nothing', even if at the level of 'rich people' its performative. Because as it trickles down, it becomes less performative.
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:43 AM on October 26, 2023
What's the alternative? We had that in the past- rich people do whatever they want and don't care about the consequences. I'll take 'doing something' over 'doing nothing', even if at the level of 'rich people' its performative. Because as it trickles down, it becomes less performative.
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:43 AM on October 26, 2023
Obviously it would be better if rich people who control corporations took non-performative steps to improve the environment, but the odds of that ahead of total collapse are pretty low, so we have to look at other options, even if they are ultimately temporary stopgaps, and nowhere near enough.
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:56 AM on October 26, 2023
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:56 AM on October 26, 2023
(My bad; that new coat isn't a puffy quilted thing. It's something I'd likely wear, if it wasn't out of my price bracket. Carry on.)
posted by Artful Codger at 8:01 AM on October 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Artful Codger at 8:01 AM on October 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
I have a complicated relationship with Patagonia, the Vines’s Boots thing applied for the longest time. I have Patagonia stuff I thrifted in Portland in 1999 that looks and works better than 5 year old stuff from similarly priced brands. I bought a couple of very soft and warm flannel shirts in 2006 that I still use every winter almost every day.
But then I bought one of their simplest items in 2016, a belt, and it sucks. Does not stay tight, frayed at the ends. Complete garbage. Tried to get another of the 2006 shirts and the current equivalent is made of thinner cloth and the buttons started falling off after the first wash. Impossible to use their repair or replace service outside of the USA.
Then their shitty “work” boots. Just looking at the construction I know they would not last me 6 months. They look nice for “lifestyle” boots.
Regarding greenwashing, they may be walking the walk, they may not. But working with human trafficking factories in Taiwan up to at least 2012, benefiting from Uyghur forced labor in Xinjiang up to at least 2021, and having been found out this year to use the same worker exploiting factories as Decathlon and Primark… that makes me not want to buy their stuff anymore. (And I love the excuse for why they keep using factories that do not comply with their own publicly set working standards and wages: we don’t own the factories)
Kudos for them doing a pilot of recycled ocean waste clothing, they have the market that can pay the price. Hope this inspires others to make it cheaper and really massive.
posted by Dr. Curare at 8:21 AM on October 26, 2023 [4 favorites]
But then I bought one of their simplest items in 2016, a belt, and it sucks. Does not stay tight, frayed at the ends. Complete garbage. Tried to get another of the 2006 shirts and the current equivalent is made of thinner cloth and the buttons started falling off after the first wash. Impossible to use their repair or replace service outside of the USA.
Then their shitty “work” boots. Just looking at the construction I know they would not last me 6 months. They look nice for “lifestyle” boots.
Regarding greenwashing, they may be walking the walk, they may not. But working with human trafficking factories in Taiwan up to at least 2012, benefiting from Uyghur forced labor in Xinjiang up to at least 2021, and having been found out this year to use the same worker exploiting factories as Decathlon and Primark… that makes me not want to buy their stuff anymore. (And I love the excuse for why they keep using factories that do not comply with their own publicly set working standards and wages: we don’t own the factories)
Kudos for them doing a pilot of recycled ocean waste clothing, they have the market that can pay the price. Hope this inspires others to make it cheaper and really massive.
posted by Dr. Curare at 8:21 AM on October 26, 2023 [4 favorites]
Dr. Curare, to the factory point, it's really challenging to work with overseas suppliers and actually know without a shadow of a doubt where all the work is happening.
You contract with vendor A, you even have a local representative and you make quarterly visits. All seems well, your product is on the floor, the place is clean, people seem happy. They are meeting the standards you set!
Vendor A subs out to vendor B portions of the work they'd rather not handle, for what could be a variety of reasons. Vendor B maybe has a reputation in town for helping the A level factories hit tight deadlines. Maybe they're the specialist in sewing miniature technical buttonholes. Factory B may essentially just be a warehouse that interfaces with manufacturers in countries with less oversight and appalling working conditions. Factory A may realize that this is the only way they could be getting that great pricing and speed, but they haven't actually set eyes on anything problematic and thus maintain their innocence.
Investigative journalist makes the connection between factory A and B, and suddenly Patagonia is said to be using child labor. They were making those buttonholes with small hands!
Patagonia's point is that they can't control that unless they own the factory. At a certain point, outsourcing means handing over a certain level of control of your product to someone else.
The responsible thing to do when you find out is reprimand your supplier and find a new one, but there's no guarantee the same thing won't happen.
Should the run their own factories? Maybe, but then Metafilter would be roasting them for having the gall to sell $2000 jackets.
posted by jellywerker at 9:55 AM on October 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
You contract with vendor A, you even have a local representative and you make quarterly visits. All seems well, your product is on the floor, the place is clean, people seem happy. They are meeting the standards you set!
Vendor A subs out to vendor B portions of the work they'd rather not handle, for what could be a variety of reasons. Vendor B maybe has a reputation in town for helping the A level factories hit tight deadlines. Maybe they're the specialist in sewing miniature technical buttonholes. Factory B may essentially just be a warehouse that interfaces with manufacturers in countries with less oversight and appalling working conditions. Factory A may realize that this is the only way they could be getting that great pricing and speed, but they haven't actually set eyes on anything problematic and thus maintain their innocence.
Investigative journalist makes the connection between factory A and B, and suddenly Patagonia is said to be using child labor. They were making those buttonholes with small hands!
Patagonia's point is that they can't control that unless they own the factory. At a certain point, outsourcing means handing over a certain level of control of your product to someone else.
The responsible thing to do when you find out is reprimand your supplier and find a new one, but there's no guarantee the same thing won't happen.
Should the run their own factories? Maybe, but then Metafilter would be roasting them for having the gall to sell $2000 jackets.
posted by jellywerker at 9:55 AM on October 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
I am typing this standing on carpet made from fishing nets that were collected from the ocean, though not the one i live on IIRC. Apparently enough netting to cover South Carolina is lost to the sea annually, where it kills sealife that gets tangled up, but also breaks down to microplastics, which my ecology colleagues tell us have ben absorbed into the bodies of many animals on the planet, including human foetuses. Will there be health impacts of that?
We don't know yet. Seems like a plan.
posted by biffa at 9:58 AM on October 26, 2023
We don't know yet. Seems like a plan.
posted by biffa at 9:58 AM on October 26, 2023
The_Vegetables: "Anything that makes rich people feel like they're doing "something for the environment" as they perpetuate the system that benefits them while fucking everything and everyone else is always a net negative.
What's the alternative? …"
Not shilling for them here?
posted by signal at 10:23 AM on October 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
What's the alternative? …"
Not shilling for them here?
posted by signal at 10:23 AM on October 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
What confuses me about the scorn in this thread is - I don’t understand what you would advocate for.
Patagonia is partnering with another org to pay people to collect and sort and reprocess other people’s plastic from the ocean - I.e., a cost that someone like Uniqlo does not have to bear, and is not at all cheap to do.
They also make clothes that are designed to be repaired and last a lifetime - and doing so is a lot more paying people to do good work than the fast fashion world does.
So where do you want to cut - paying people less? Using less labour by making them worse? Using worse materials that are toxic and end up in a landfill? Or do you think there are hundreds of dollars of profit in every jacket? Because even at $399 it is inaccessible to a lot of people.
In the end, the unfortunate truth is I feel like an $899 jacket is what things actually cost when you aren’t screwing the environment or labour making them artificially cheap. I’ve had one item of clothing made by a tailor who doesn’t ship off to China and it’s expensive because he got paid a fair wage and it takes hours of work.
Patagonia, more than anything, illuminates me to what the real cost of clothing probably is. And it’s scary because it’s near impossible for most, but I don’t get why a company who is trying harder than most gets pushback for trying.
posted by openhearted at 1:55 PM on October 26, 2023 [7 favorites]
Patagonia is partnering with another org to pay people to collect and sort and reprocess other people’s plastic from the ocean - I.e., a cost that someone like Uniqlo does not have to bear, and is not at all cheap to do.
They also make clothes that are designed to be repaired and last a lifetime - and doing so is a lot more paying people to do good work than the fast fashion world does.
So where do you want to cut - paying people less? Using less labour by making them worse? Using worse materials that are toxic and end up in a landfill? Or do you think there are hundreds of dollars of profit in every jacket? Because even at $399 it is inaccessible to a lot of people.
In the end, the unfortunate truth is I feel like an $899 jacket is what things actually cost when you aren’t screwing the environment or labour making them artificially cheap. I’ve had one item of clothing made by a tailor who doesn’t ship off to China and it’s expensive because he got paid a fair wage and it takes hours of work.
Patagonia, more than anything, illuminates me to what the real cost of clothing probably is. And it’s scary because it’s near impossible for most, but I don’t get why a company who is trying harder than most gets pushback for trying.
posted by openhearted at 1:55 PM on October 26, 2023 [7 favorites]
the unfortunate truth is I feel like an $899 jacket is what things actually cost when you aren’t screwing the environment or labour making them artificially cheap
Hold on, this is NOT a basic coat for the masses, it is a high end "technical" garment from an aspirational brand, and part of its cachet is the virtuous backstory. Innovation is innovation, so yay for that, but if in a just world the average winter coat should cost us almost $900.. yikes.
posted by Artful Codger at 2:11 PM on October 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
Hold on, this is NOT a basic coat for the masses, it is a high end "technical" garment from an aspirational brand, and part of its cachet is the virtuous backstory. Innovation is innovation, so yay for that, but if in a just world the average winter coat should cost us almost $900.. yikes.
posted by Artful Codger at 2:11 PM on October 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
Right, because what the oceans absolutely need added to them is endless amounts of sunken e-waste from failed plastic-collector bots. Perhaps we could add a fleet of failed-collector-bot-collecting bots while we're at it.
I knew someone was going to call me out on that.
Maybe imagine something less impactful than what you're thinking where most of the robot is biodegradable and uses bamboo or organic composites for floats, has a tiny little circuit board (perhaps on hemp composites instead of fiberglass and epoxy) maybe a really tiny chip packaged in ceramic instead of plastic, uses low-impact no-lead solar or even wind power and/or an organic, non-toxic battery.
Make it out of materials where it's not a catastrophe if/when it sinks or fails.
It doesn't have to be particularly smart or complicated. It doesn't need to be perfect. It just needs to grab as much plastic as it can and, say, deposit it into a net or sieve or some other collection point that allows small sea life to escape.
I mean it would be ideal if there wasn't plastic in our oceans and everywhere already and I wasn't wasting neurons having to think of ideas like this, but that's not the world we live in right now.
The nihilism and fatalism in this thread is out of scale even by my standards.
posted by loquacious at 2:14 PM on October 26, 2023 [5 favorites]
I knew someone was going to call me out on that.
Maybe imagine something less impactful than what you're thinking where most of the robot is biodegradable and uses bamboo or organic composites for floats, has a tiny little circuit board (perhaps on hemp composites instead of fiberglass and epoxy) maybe a really tiny chip packaged in ceramic instead of plastic, uses low-impact no-lead solar or even wind power and/or an organic, non-toxic battery.
Make it out of materials where it's not a catastrophe if/when it sinks or fails.
It doesn't have to be particularly smart or complicated. It doesn't need to be perfect. It just needs to grab as much plastic as it can and, say, deposit it into a net or sieve or some other collection point that allows small sea life to escape.
I mean it would be ideal if there wasn't plastic in our oceans and everywhere already and I wasn't wasting neurons having to think of ideas like this, but that's not the world we live in right now.
The nihilism and fatalism in this thread is out of scale even by my standards.
posted by loquacious at 2:14 PM on October 26, 2023 [5 favorites]
In a just world, more people could afford a $1000 jacket because they would also be paid just wages and their wages wouldn't be drained by rentiers and monopolists
posted by rebent at 3:06 PM on October 26, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by rebent at 3:06 PM on October 26, 2023 [3 favorites]
Innovation is innovation, so yay for that, but if in a just world the average winter coat should cost us almost $900.. yikes.
Of course. Patagonia sells winter jackets for $299 too. This is not the only coat they sell. I don’t own any of their stuff but do own a couple of knock off pieces that clearly benefitted from their innovation and came out cheaper after a few years.
My general point, though, is that the $70 Uniqlo jacket mentioned early in this thread can only by made at that price by externalizing costs on the environment (in both production but also in waste) and either using cheap labour or automating away jobs entirely. If you paid a living wage and forced producers to account for their environmental impacts, coats will cost a lot of money. Patagonia is to some extent an example of that and why it would be ideal to produce things that last a long time.
We have a conundrum created by financial inequality that means that the only way that many people are able to afford new clothing is by exploiting others and having it end up in a landfill. But that issue is solved on the wealth inequality side, not in Patagonia not trying something new to clean up the oceans side.
posted by openhearted at 3:27 PM on October 26, 2023 [4 favorites]
Of course. Patagonia sells winter jackets for $299 too. This is not the only coat they sell. I don’t own any of their stuff but do own a couple of knock off pieces that clearly benefitted from their innovation and came out cheaper after a few years.
My general point, though, is that the $70 Uniqlo jacket mentioned early in this thread can only by made at that price by externalizing costs on the environment (in both production but also in waste) and either using cheap labour or automating away jobs entirely. If you paid a living wage and forced producers to account for their environmental impacts, coats will cost a lot of money. Patagonia is to some extent an example of that and why it would be ideal to produce things that last a long time.
We have a conundrum created by financial inequality that means that the only way that many people are able to afford new clothing is by exploiting others and having it end up in a landfill. But that issue is solved on the wealth inequality side, not in Patagonia not trying something new to clean up the oceans side.
posted by openhearted at 3:27 PM on October 26, 2023 [4 favorites]
The nihilism and fatalism in this thread is out of scale even by my standards.
Anything which is not a perfect solution to all problems I have personally identified must necessarily suck and is probably actively evil.
posted by aramaic at 3:38 PM on October 26, 2023 [5 favorites]
Anything which is not a perfect solution to all problems I have personally identified must necessarily suck and is probably actively evil.
posted by aramaic at 3:38 PM on October 26, 2023 [5 favorites]
I don’t understand what you would advocate for.
Wealth taxes on both individuals and corporations.
Transaction taxes on cross-border money flows.
Legal maximum multiples for the effective hourly rates that corporations are allowed to pay their highest-paid vs lowest-paid employees for time on call.
WTO rules allowing member nations to bring anti-competitive-behaviour actions against other member nations that fail to implement the above.
Those will do for a start, though at some point I would also love to see most of what passes for marketing and PR these days becoming legally classed as fraud.
posted by flabdablet at 8:07 PM on October 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
Wealth taxes on both individuals and corporations.
Transaction taxes on cross-border money flows.
Legal maximum multiples for the effective hourly rates that corporations are allowed to pay their highest-paid vs lowest-paid employees for time on call.
WTO rules allowing member nations to bring anti-competitive-behaviour actions against other member nations that fail to implement the above.
Those will do for a start, though at some point I would also love to see most of what passes for marketing and PR these days becoming legally classed as fraud.
posted by flabdablet at 8:07 PM on October 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
The position that we shouldn't make any individual effort until some massive global change solves all problems is just as silly as the position that making a token effort to buy an expensive consumer item absolves someone of any further action, and systemic change isn't needed.
We can support companies trying to be less bad, while keeping an eye on them, *and* push for larger change.
posted by BinaryApe at 3:37 AM on October 27, 2023
We can support companies trying to be less bad, while keeping an eye on them, *and* push for larger change.
posted by BinaryApe at 3:37 AM on October 27, 2023
Those will do for a start, though at some point I would also love to see most of what passes for marketing and PR these days becoming legally classed as fraud.
None of which have anything to do with Patagonia and this article about a coat.
It is very difficult to have conversations here about incremental change if the bar for whether it’s worth anything is if it solves for wealth inequality across nation boundaries. There’s a subset of this site that seems to see optimism in anything and feel responsible for telling you why everything and everyone is actually bad and this doesn’t matter.
Sometimes it feels like people are here to find a sentence someone said as an excuse to just launch into what they really want to be talking about. Nobody said this was radical or revolutionary and yet that wicker man was built to take the discussion in that direction. It’s one of the most exhausting parts of being a member here.
posted by openhearted at 6:54 AM on October 27, 2023 [4 favorites]
None of which have anything to do with Patagonia and this article about a coat.
It is very difficult to have conversations here about incremental change if the bar for whether it’s worth anything is if it solves for wealth inequality across nation boundaries. There’s a subset of this site that seems to see optimism in anything and feel responsible for telling you why everything and everyone is actually bad and this doesn’t matter.
Sometimes it feels like people are here to find a sentence someone said as an excuse to just launch into what they really want to be talking about. Nobody said this was radical or revolutionary and yet that wicker man was built to take the discussion in that direction. It’s one of the most exhausting parts of being a member here.
posted by openhearted at 6:54 AM on October 27, 2023 [4 favorites]
But then all our own bodies are already riddled with microscopic plastic that it'll be incorporated into our DNA, if it isn't already
This sounds as unhinged as a vaccine has microchips which get injected into the body while the article shows a picture of a electron microscopy phage virus.
Why not claim the plastics have already created new lifeforms in the warm bosom of the sea?
While mining the sea to make the jacket is a marketing gimmick which is working by having us talk about it this shows one could just get the raw material from land based recycling bins to address the Carbon and final cost of goods concerns.
posted by rough ashlar at 7:00 AM on October 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
This sounds as unhinged as a vaccine has microchips which get injected into the body while the article shows a picture of a electron microscopy phage virus.
Why not claim the plastics have already created new lifeforms in the warm bosom of the sea?
While mining the sea to make the jacket is a marketing gimmick which is working by having us talk about it this shows one could just get the raw material from land based recycling bins to address the Carbon and final cost of goods concerns.
posted by rough ashlar at 7:00 AM on October 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
While mining the sea to make the jacket is a marketing gimmick which is working by having us talk about it this shows one could just get the raw material from land based recycling bins to address the Carbon and final cost of goods concerns.
Patagonia has been doing that since 1993. I think the point of this (past any marketing side-eye you want to apply) is that the oceans being full of plastic is an additional concern past just the carbon impacts of plastic in general.
posted by openhearted at 8:34 AM on October 27, 2023
Patagonia has been doing that since 1993. I think the point of this (past any marketing side-eye you want to apply) is that the oceans being full of plastic is an additional concern past just the carbon impacts of plastic in general.
posted by openhearted at 8:34 AM on October 27, 2023
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I really like Patagonia's environmental mission, but they don't make products for the population.
posted by mcstayinskool at 11:39 AM on October 25, 2023 [19 favorites]