Cinematic Fig Leaf
October 30, 2023 2:19 PM Subscribe
"NO CGI" is really just "INVISIBLE CGI" [SLYT] This VFX artist rigorously examines the oft-repeated claim that a movie has no CGI or is all practical. As he puts it, why are their 400 VFX artists in the credits then?
I can't wait for the remaining three episodes of the series!
I can't wait for the remaining three episodes of the series!
A cool example of CGI is in "Jerry Maguire". What you say, it's all dialogue. Shooting in front of large windows is time consuming and they had Cruise for like 2 weeks, so many scenes were green screens on a sound stage. Huge time/cost savings.
Nothing on film is "natural". Not even documentaries. Does is "feel" right, ok, it's good art.
Think about actors in a black box theater, enthralling, but not actually natural.
posted by sammyo at 2:40 PM on October 30, 2023 [5 favorites]
Nothing on film is "natural". Not even documentaries. Does is "feel" right, ok, it's good art.
Think about actors in a black box theater, enthralling, but not actually natural.
posted by sammyo at 2:40 PM on October 30, 2023 [5 favorites]
Yeah, there's invisible CGI everywhere. Even Mad Max: Fury Road, rightfully known for its spectacular practical stunts, has plenty of CGI. Compositing, sky replacements, etc. Heck, there are scenes in Contact that were shot at the actual Arecibo Observatory where the giant dish was so rusty and dirty that it had to be digitally "cleaned up" in postproduction.
posted by brundlefly at 2:52 PM on October 30, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by brundlefly at 2:52 PM on October 30, 2023 [9 favorites]
I remember seeing an article in 2005 about rising CGI costs on TV, highlighting a science fiction show called Invasion. I was watching Invasion and the ET stuff was all off screen and only hinted at. At most you got a few flashing lights in the water. "What CGI," I ask myself, "unless all the shots of the Everglades are computer generated."
It was the Everglades. In retrospect, of course they weren't going on location to swampland and getting everyone in boats for a weekly TV show.
posted by mark k at 2:55 PM on October 30, 2023 [12 favorites]
It was the Everglades. In retrospect, of course they weren't going on location to swampland and getting everyone in boats for a weekly TV show.
posted by mark k at 2:55 PM on October 30, 2023 [12 favorites]
Even Mad Max: Fury Road, rightfully known for its spectacular practical stunts, has plenty of CGI.
Notably, they used CGI to make the vehicles wheels look like they were turning faster, making the stunts look more dangerous since they appear on screen to be moving much faster than they were. That, in my estimation, was an amaing use of CGI.
posted by GenjiandProust at 3:01 PM on October 30, 2023 [50 favorites]
Notably, they used CGI to make the vehicles wheels look like they were turning faster, making the stunts look more dangerous since they appear on screen to be moving much faster than they were. That, in my estimation, was an amaing use of CGI.
posted by GenjiandProust at 3:01 PM on October 30, 2023 [50 favorites]
Also, this reminds me of a great showcase of CGI ubiquity in TV from ages ago.
posted by bbrown at 3:03 PM on October 30, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by bbrown at 3:03 PM on October 30, 2023 [4 favorites]
Particular fan of of the diagetic use of CGI in Something in the Dirt. You’ll enjoy the moment when you get to it.
posted by Artw at 3:10 PM on October 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Artw at 3:10 PM on October 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
(This makes a great point that using practical effects from the beginning lets you do things more effectively and realistically when you add in the CGI (because you can copy the movement and lighting cues). So the jet fights look real because they are (largely) based on the movement of actual jets and not something entirely fabricated on a computer)
I guess I assumed that everyone knew this. When I heard that the Burj Khalifa stunt in Ghost Protocol was "real" with "no CGI", I assumed that that meant it was actually Tom Cruise on the outside of the actual building, 50 kajillion feet up, and then they digitally erased the safety wires and that annoying reflection and so on. AFAIK, that's about right.
posted by It's Never Lurgi at 3:18 PM on October 30, 2023 [3 favorites]
I guess I assumed that everyone knew this. When I heard that the Burj Khalifa stunt in Ghost Protocol was "real" with "no CGI", I assumed that that meant it was actually Tom Cruise on the outside of the actual building, 50 kajillion feet up, and then they digitally erased the safety wires and that annoying reflection and so on. AFAIK, that's about right.
posted by It's Never Lurgi at 3:18 PM on October 30, 2023 [3 favorites]
Corridor Crew do an engaging job of lifting the curtain on a bunch of CGI trickery and a lot more beside, they're a good follow if you like this kind of thing.
posted by Sebmojo at 3:23 PM on October 30, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by Sebmojo at 3:23 PM on October 30, 2023 [5 favorites]
This appears to be at least partially a semantics issue. I watch a fair amount of 'how to' VFX/CGI and 'reactions to' VFX/CGI content and at least among the artists that I watch, they reserve 'CGI' to refer to elements that were never captured by a camera, usually (but not always) 3d models. Compositing and masking tricks never seem to be referred to as CGI by these artists, as long as all of the elements of the composite were captured in-camera.
Since Sebmojo just mentioned them, I'll add that a lot of the content of this sort I watch is Corridor Crew. For example, they just did an episode where they were lent an extremely fancy drone that can do repeatable automated camera movements (which are usually limited to being attached to rails), and using it, were able to create a sequence of zany magician-style tricks. I believe they declared this as being 'no CGI', since all the elements of each shot were done in-camera and just composited together.
I could absolutely believe that a movie could be made that needed 400 VFX artists where there is no 'CGI', since a lot of compositing work is extremely time-consuming.
posted by WaylandSmith at 3:28 PM on October 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
Since Sebmojo just mentioned them, I'll add that a lot of the content of this sort I watch is Corridor Crew. For example, they just did an episode where they were lent an extremely fancy drone that can do repeatable automated camera movements (which are usually limited to being attached to rails), and using it, were able to create a sequence of zany magician-style tricks. I believe they declared this as being 'no CGI', since all the elements of each shot were done in-camera and just composited together.
I could absolutely believe that a movie could be made that needed 400 VFX artists where there is no 'CGI', since a lot of compositing work is extremely time-consuming.
posted by WaylandSmith at 3:28 PM on October 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
Buster Keaton would like a word.
”Flying Andy Serkis” is my next band name
posted by gottabefunky at 3:47 PM on October 30, 2023 [3 favorites]
”Flying Andy Serkis” is my next band name
posted by gottabefunky at 3:47 PM on October 30, 2023 [3 favorites]
I think of Anna Biller's THE LOVE WITCH as being almost certainly the last soup-to-nuts analog fllm produced in our lifetimes - and what a film at that!
There's been questions about whether compositing means "CGI" since something like Tarsem's remarkable THE FALL in 2006, far before George Miller's largely-practical but certainly CGI-assisted FURY ROAD, which is almost unbelievably incredible in Real 3D in a way it could not be captured in real life.
It is possible that OPPENHEIMER, which was shot in 65mm and released in 70mm IMAX, may technically have been produced via analog methods, but there are questions to this day.
posted by eschatfische at 3:48 PM on October 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
There's been questions about whether compositing means "CGI" since something like Tarsem's remarkable THE FALL in 2006, far before George Miller's largely-practical but certainly CGI-assisted FURY ROAD, which is almost unbelievably incredible in Real 3D in a way it could not be captured in real life.
It is possible that OPPENHEIMER, which was shot in 65mm and released in 70mm IMAX, may technically have been produced via analog methods, but there are questions to this day.
posted by eschatfische at 3:48 PM on October 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
While compositing is technically not "CGI" in the strict sense, it's quite common for many films to have CGI elements even in rather mundane shots. You'll hear stuff like "We found it would be easier to replace this arm here with a CGI version", etc.
eschatfische: Shot on film and even negative cut, like The Love Witch was, doesn't mean no digital effects. I worked on Amat Escalante's Los Bastardos back in 2008, which was shot on 35mm and negative cut, but a couple of shots were scanned, worked on in VFX (including damage to a person's head by the same guy who did that shot in Irreversible), and printed back to film to be cut into the negative. You can't tell it's not part of the original negative, except for the fact that that effect would be nigh-impossible to do practically.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 3:55 PM on October 30, 2023 [7 favorites]
eschatfische: Shot on film and even negative cut, like The Love Witch was, doesn't mean no digital effects. I worked on Amat Escalante's Los Bastardos back in 2008, which was shot on 35mm and negative cut, but a couple of shots were scanned, worked on in VFX (including damage to a person's head by the same guy who did that shot in Irreversible), and printed back to film to be cut into the negative. You can't tell it's not part of the original negative, except for the fact that that effect would be nigh-impossible to do practically.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 3:55 PM on October 30, 2023 [7 favorites]
There's been questions about whether compositing means "CGI" since something like Tarsem's remarkable THE FALL in 2006
For what it's worth, The Fall has, in its extensive list of VFX credits, several 3D artists, a 3D supervisor, a couple of modelling artists, and so on, which almost certainly means it has what you would narrowly define as "CGI", not just compositing.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 3:58 PM on October 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
For what it's worth, The Fall has, in its extensive list of VFX credits, several 3D artists, a 3D supervisor, a couple of modelling artists, and so on, which almost certainly means it has what you would narrowly define as "CGI", not just compositing.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 3:58 PM on October 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
For what it's worth, The Fall has, in its extensive list of VFX credits, several 3D artists, a 3D supervisor, a couple of modelling artists, and so on, which almost certainly means it has what you would narrowly define as "CGI", not just compositing.
Oh, I'm aware of that. This New York Times article has Tarsem explicitly discussing how the film was not CGI, even if there are aspects that were clearly digitally manipulated. (I think THE FALL is remarkable, digital effects or no.)
posted by eschatfische at 4:02 PM on October 30, 2023
Oh, I'm aware of that. This New York Times article has Tarsem explicitly discussing how the film was not CGI, even if there are aspects that were clearly digitally manipulated. (I think THE FALL is remarkable, digital effects or no.)
posted by eschatfische at 4:02 PM on October 30, 2023
This is an oldie but goodie video that made the rounds 12 years ago: the VFX firm that did the show Boardwalk Empire shows the before/after shots that were used throughout the first season.
Again, 12 years ago these effects were pretty damn good, the tech today is leaps and bounds better.
posted by jeremias at 4:10 PM on October 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
Again, 12 years ago these effects were pretty damn good, the tech today is leaps and bounds better.
posted by jeremias at 4:10 PM on October 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
When the cameras are computers, is anything not CGI.
Haven't computers color graded everything since...the 90's? Jason Takes Manhattan?
Isn't that why everything was Orange in the 2000's?
posted by eustatic at 5:16 PM on October 30, 2023 [7 favorites]
Haven't computers color graded everything since...the 90's? Jason Takes Manhattan?
Isn't that why everything was Orange in the 2000's?
posted by eustatic at 5:16 PM on October 30, 2023 [7 favorites]
I assumed there was CGI in Maverick, like missiles and the like, but didn't realize how they simply superimposed jets over and control pasted others in. Very interesting that they did the practical anyway, fully planning on replacing most of it with CGI.
The "reveal" of Stranger Things' Vecna is kind of strange. Yes, it's an actor in a suit/makeup, but did anyone really think those tentacles were practical? There the blending of practical and CGI is pretty obvious to even a casual viewer.
posted by zardoz at 5:54 PM on October 30, 2023
The "reveal" of Stranger Things' Vecna is kind of strange. Yes, it's an actor in a suit/makeup, but did anyone really think those tentacles were practical? There the blending of practical and CGI is pretty obvious to even a casual viewer.
posted by zardoz at 5:54 PM on October 30, 2023
I think I first understood just how ubiquitous and seamless CGI could get when I saw this VFX breakdown for Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind, which at the time did not strike me as a movie that would ever need any sort of digital reconstruction (though in hindsight, they dropped a car behind Kate Winslet and collapsed a beach house, of course you'd probably want to do that via CGI). But it wasn't just the fact that CGI was used at all, but some of the specific reasons why they used CGI—to lengthen a city block so a shot's timing would be better, or to smooth a transition between two scenes. Not "stupendous action blockbuster setpiece" but something much more prosaic.
Part of me wonders how much of the "no CGI" marketing movement is to mollify uneducated moviegoers who now equate CGI with cheap-looking shit, and how much is a way to downplay the contributions of visual effects artists and producers so that Hollywood doesn't have to grant that workforce the same protections they have to give actors, writers and the other unionized workers on most movie and TV sets.
posted by chrominance at 6:44 PM on October 30, 2023 [11 favorites]
Part of me wonders how much of the "no CGI" marketing movement is to mollify uneducated moviegoers who now equate CGI with cheap-looking shit, and how much is a way to downplay the contributions of visual effects artists and producers so that Hollywood doesn't have to grant that workforce the same protections they have to give actors, writers and the other unionized workers on most movie and TV sets.
posted by chrominance at 6:44 PM on October 30, 2023 [11 favorites]
Haven't computers color graded everything since...the 90's?
I would have guessed The Matrix or that Star Wars what with the Jar Jar, but I think the real answer is Pleasantville (with a nod to Super Mario Bros.)
posted by credulous at 7:11 PM on October 30, 2023 [5 favorites]
I would have guessed The Matrix or that Star Wars what with the Jar Jar, but I think the real answer is Pleasantville (with a nod to Super Mario Bros.)
posted by credulous at 7:11 PM on October 30, 2023 [5 favorites]
The Lord of the Rings films were really big in terms of popularizing extensive grading.
posted by brundlefly at 7:20 PM on October 30, 2023
posted by brundlefly at 7:20 PM on October 30, 2023
On the other hand, I love John Wick director Chad Stahelski's stance on CGI guns: they're dangerous and unnecessary.
It's the 21st century. Why is anyone making movies with real guns firing (what are hopefully) blanks? Do all the stunts with much safer rubber guns and add all the smoke and muzzle flash in post.
posted by thecjm at 7:48 PM on October 30, 2023 [5 favorites]
It's the 21st century. Why is anyone making movies with real guns firing (what are hopefully) blanks? Do all the stunts with much safer rubber guns and add all the smoke and muzzle flash in post.
posted by thecjm at 7:48 PM on October 30, 2023 [5 favorites]
My friend who worked in SFX (stuff that happens in front of the camera) once mentioned that he worked on a drawing room period piece. I thought for a second and told him I couldn't imagine what they would need him for. He dryly asked, "Did you notice the snow?" They had shot in the summer.
It's movie magic all the way down.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:51 PM on October 30, 2023 [4 favorites]
It's movie magic all the way down.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:51 PM on October 30, 2023 [4 favorites]
On the other hand, I love John Wick director Chad Stahelski's stance on CGI guns: they're dangerous and unnecessary.
that article is fine, but having a look around - good lord the av club is trash these days. poor internet.
posted by Sebmojo at 7:57 PM on October 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
that article is fine, but having a look around - good lord the av club is trash these days. poor internet.
posted by Sebmojo at 7:57 PM on October 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
I'll come in to defend 'no CGI' as a marketing movement since I, as an uneducated moviegoer, do associate it with the use of generated scenes in lieu of plot or character, and sometimes literally in lieu of characters. The tendency to substitute in dead actors is the use of this kind of technology in terrible cinematic taste, and ruins the effect of otherwise perfectly good movies that heavily use CGI---Rogue One is the perfect example. Give me CGI but not that.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 8:11 PM on October 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 8:11 PM on October 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
that article is fine, but having a look around - good lord the av club is trash these days. poor internet.
About a year (?) ago the A.V. Club was bought out by Univision and moved to L.A. from Chicago. Not all the staff went so they hired new blood, and I would imagine cut the budget. Yay vulture capitalism.
posted by zardoz at 8:36 PM on October 30, 2023
About a year (?) ago the A.V. Club was bought out by Univision and moved to L.A. from Chicago. Not all the staff went so they hired new blood, and I would imagine cut the budget. Yay vulture capitalism.
posted by zardoz at 8:36 PM on October 30, 2023
UGH! "… why are there …" Missed my edit window. (Maybe that's how the VFX artist said it and I was just precisely transcribing it. Heh)
All good. We'll fix the post in post.
posted by HeroZero at 8:38 PM on October 30, 2023 [22 favorites]
All good. We'll fix the post in post.
posted by HeroZero at 8:38 PM on October 30, 2023 [22 favorites]
One of the uses of CGI I especially appreciate is in period films where the past appearance of cities is recreated. The first time I noticed this, i think, is in A Very Long Engagement (2004) where the old narket at Les Halles is featured, despite having been flattened and replaced by a very dull park and shopping mall in the 70s. Period films set in New York City especially benefit from this but it crops up in anything set in the past of any rapidly-changing city with plenty of contemporary visual references. I watched Crimson Peak last night and has an impressive shot of 19th century Buffalo - I haven't the foggiest idea what Buffalo looks like now, but I very much doubt it still looks like that.
Where pratical effects win out over CGI is in close-ups of creatures like the dinosaurs in Jurassic Park, which still holds up now due to a very clever combination of practical effects and CGI. CGI is still rather poor at living creatures as in the Disney "live action" remakes, especially The Lion King.
posted by Fuchsoid at 8:39 PM on October 30, 2023
Where pratical effects win out over CGI is in close-ups of creatures like the dinosaurs in Jurassic Park, which still holds up now due to a very clever combination of practical effects and CGI. CGI is still rather poor at living creatures as in the Disney "live action" remakes, especially The Lion King.
posted by Fuchsoid at 8:39 PM on October 30, 2023
I mean, much earlier than that and you're in T2 territory which is JUST about as early as CGI is really truly being done in films.
And even then, a whole lot of the effects were practical, mostly for time and money reasons (then-primitive CGI ate a lot of both). They weren't putting the world's most bankable star and a 12-year-old boy in traffic for crazy stunts, even when it's obviously them and not their stunt doubles.
As for the AV Club, the decay started well before they moved out of Chicago; I'd put it not long after they were bought by Gawker Media.
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:42 PM on October 30, 2023
And even then, a whole lot of the effects were practical, mostly for time and money reasons (then-primitive CGI ate a lot of both). They weren't putting the world's most bankable star and a 12-year-old boy in traffic for crazy stunts, even when it's obviously them and not their stunt doubles.
As for the AV Club, the decay started well before they moved out of Chicago; I'd put it not long after they were bought by Gawker Media.
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:42 PM on October 30, 2023
To build on what Fuchsoid said, there were scenes in the Young Pope that take place in the Sistine Chapel. I have been in the chapel on a tour and the scenes as presented were mind bending on how real it looked.
posted by mmascolino at 8:45 PM on October 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by mmascolino at 8:45 PM on October 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
The screwball romantic comedy Ticket To Paradise, set in the present day and featuring no-CGI-needed charisma bombs George Clooney and Julia Roberts, has more CGI shots than Jurassic Park did.
posted by Superilla at 9:49 PM on October 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Superilla at 9:49 PM on October 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
I just assume that pretty much any 'action shots' are done partly or wholly via CGI these days, but it's pleasing to see that a lot of it I actually done for real, then enhanced. I'm not sure why I see the difference, but I mostly hate when films show footage that is clearly completely and utterly impossible, particularly in things like car chases etc. I'm very much willing to suspend disbelief up to a point, but a lot of those scenes in modern films make it impossible to keep my head in the story just because they're so ridiculous. Just to be inconsistent, scenes that are obviously made-up (eg films like The Matrix) are fine by me and I really enjoy the art in the effects themselves. I guess it's because nobody's pretending a person can really dodge bullets, whereas plenty of people really believe you can drive a car out the window of a high-rise building and into the window of one across the street. Maybe the difference is just me justifying films I like but, for fuck's sake, at least try and give me something I can believe.
The extensive use of CGI etc in 'normal' scenes is just an extension of the lies the media has been telling for decades and is no different to airbrushing/photoshopping models in magazines - no wonder younger people have such a warped perception of what beauty is and so many feel like they'll never be beautiful or desirable because they don't look like the people on the big screen.
posted by dg at 10:14 PM on October 30, 2023
The extensive use of CGI etc in 'normal' scenes is just an extension of the lies the media has been telling for decades and is no different to airbrushing/photoshopping models in magazines - no wonder younger people have such a warped perception of what beauty is and so many feel like they'll never be beautiful or desirable because they don't look like the people on the big screen.
posted by dg at 10:14 PM on October 30, 2023
The extensive use of CGI etc in 'normal' scenes is just an extension of the lies the media has been telling for decades and is no different to airbrushing/photoshopping models in magazines - no wonder younger people have such a warped perception of what beauty is and so many feel like they'll never be beautiful or desirable because they don't look like the people on the big screen.
I can assure you that, apart from a few A-listers who have this sort of thing in their contract, and maybe the occasional fix for something very specific, VFX artists do not spend most of their time making people look prettier. The VFX in "mundane" scenes tends to be a lot of very minor stuff like removing a reflection of the crew, a cable that's visible where it shouldn't be, maybe change a sky to make it match another shot that was done on another day, etc. Stuff you couldn't even tell was done, but would maybe notice if it wasn't. Although maybe you're right, maybe young people have a warped perception of how uncommon it is to have a boom in the shot.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 10:36 PM on October 30, 2023 [9 favorites]
I can assure you that, apart from a few A-listers who have this sort of thing in their contract, and maybe the occasional fix for something very specific, VFX artists do not spend most of their time making people look prettier. The VFX in "mundane" scenes tends to be a lot of very minor stuff like removing a reflection of the crew, a cable that's visible where it shouldn't be, maybe change a sky to make it match another shot that was done on another day, etc. Stuff you couldn't even tell was done, but would maybe notice if it wasn't. Although maybe you're right, maybe young people have a warped perception of how uncommon it is to have a boom in the shot.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 10:36 PM on October 30, 2023 [9 favorites]
Exactly, dg, the suspension of disbelief problem is the thing, isn't it. Can I believe I'm watching a movie about a galaxy far far away, with battles in space and alien creatures? Sure, I suspended that disbelief even when the effects were made back in my childhood, with cardboard boxes and foam heads and suspicious camera jumps to cover scale adjustment. Can I believe Peter Cushing and Carrie Fisher are acting contemporaneously? I happen to know they are both dead, so no. There is no level of quality effects that will suspend that disbelief.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 10:41 PM on October 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 10:41 PM on October 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
Missed my edit window.
We'll fix it in post.
posted by fairmettle at 11:19 PM on October 30, 2023 [11 favorites]
We'll fix it in post.
posted by fairmettle at 11:19 PM on October 30, 2023 [11 favorites]
I noted with some suprise MIndhunter's extensive use of CGI video FX back in 2017. Not surprisingly, considering David Fincher's involvement, it was very slickly incorporated.
posted by los pantalones del muerte at 4:53 AM on October 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by los pantalones del muerte at 4:53 AM on October 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
One of the uses of CGI I especially appreciate is in period films where the past appearance of cities is recreated.
The last movie whose behind the scenes bit about this that made an impression on me (simply because damn, time does move fast) was Tick Tick Boom. There's just not enough 90s skyline of NYC for the movie especially in the milieu it was set in.
posted by cendawanita at 5:45 AM on October 31, 2023
The last movie whose behind the scenes bit about this that made an impression on me (simply because damn, time does move fast) was Tick Tick Boom. There's just not enough 90s skyline of NYC for the movie especially in the milieu it was set in.
posted by cendawanita at 5:45 AM on October 31, 2023
I mean, much earlier than that and you're in T2 territory which is JUST about as early as CGI is really truly being done in films.
Abyss splashed so T2 could walk!
The recent ILM documentary does a pretty good job of tracking the major developments in the field, if no one has seen it yet on D+.
posted by Atreides at 7:04 AM on October 31, 2023
Abyss splashed so T2 could walk!
The recent ILM documentary does a pretty good job of tracking the major developments in the field, if no one has seen it yet on D+.
posted by Atreides at 7:04 AM on October 31, 2023
I watched a YouTube video probably about 20 years ago, that demonstrated that many/all of the courthouse steps scenes on Law & Order were green screened. I was flabbergasted. That’s like pre smart phones.
posted by TWinbrook8 at 7:13 AM on October 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by TWinbrook8 at 7:13 AM on October 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
I think a lot of the "no CGI" stuff is a backlash to the Star Wars prequels, which were sort of the height of "we can do this all with computers!" The results were action sequences that felt entirely free of stakes or reality, and verged on goofy. Yoda bounding around like a toddler on cocaine, etc. A think a lot of that came out of Lucas's love of technology and general laziness rather than any flaw in what CGI is capable of.
So it makes perfect sense that the sweet spot would be to use CGI to your advantage, but in a way that it doesn't *look* like CGI the way that the Phantom Menace pod race did.
posted by Ben Trismegistus at 9:40 AM on October 31, 2023 [5 favorites]
So it makes perfect sense that the sweet spot would be to use CGI to your advantage, but in a way that it doesn't *look* like CGI the way that the Phantom Menace pod race did.
posted by Ben Trismegistus at 9:40 AM on October 31, 2023 [5 favorites]
Obligatory link to the 2017 documentary Hollywood's Greatest Trick about working conditions in the visual effects industry from 2017. The link goes to the directors site, which has a link to rent or buy the full short film for a few dollars on amazon.
I hope these artists get union protection they deserve. Marvel VFX artists, and then Disney VFX artists recently voted unanimously for representation by the new IATSE VFX union.
Hopefully, this is just the beginning.
So many young professionals that grew up passionate about art and computers are living out their childhood fantasies working in the film and video game industries and they are being fully exploited by without the union protections hard won by the actors, writers, directors, set makers, costumers, camera operators, and everyone else that the legacy entertainment business employs. Solidarity to everyone organizing their workplaces.
posted by wowenthusiast at 10:20 AM on October 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
I hope these artists get union protection they deserve. Marvel VFX artists, and then Disney VFX artists recently voted unanimously for representation by the new IATSE VFX union.
Hopefully, this is just the beginning.
So many young professionals that grew up passionate about art and computers are living out their childhood fantasies working in the film and video game industries and they are being fully exploited by without the union protections hard won by the actors, writers, directors, set makers, costumers, camera operators, and everyone else that the legacy entertainment business employs. Solidarity to everyone organizing their workplaces.
posted by wowenthusiast at 10:20 AM on October 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
Notably, they used CGI to make the vehicles wheels look like they were turning faster, making the stunts look more dangerous since they appear on screen to be moving much faster than they were.
When I saw it in theaters, I noticed that the stunt shots involving people seemed noticeably sped up, in a Keystone Cops sort of way, which was a little distracting. I assumed it was for subtle comedic effect, e.g. to make the War Boys seem slightly more bumbling. But it doesn’t stand out in the streaming version, so I’m wondering whether they toned it down for the home release, or if the apparent difference has something to do with the frame rate of a projector vs. TV.
CGI is still rather poor at living creatures as in the Disney "live action" remakes, especially The Lion King.
I was pretty impressed by the animal CGI in HBO’s His Dark Materials series. Not all of the shots are 100% photorealistic (especially the ones where the animals are talking, obviously), but a lot of them are. I found myself wondering whether some of the shots actually used trained animals, but I presume CGI is cheaper and easier if you’ve already built the character model.
posted by dephlogisticated at 2:20 PM on October 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
When I saw it in theaters, I noticed that the stunt shots involving people seemed noticeably sped up, in a Keystone Cops sort of way, which was a little distracting. I assumed it was for subtle comedic effect, e.g. to make the War Boys seem slightly more bumbling. But it doesn’t stand out in the streaming version, so I’m wondering whether they toned it down for the home release, or if the apparent difference has something to do with the frame rate of a projector vs. TV.
CGI is still rather poor at living creatures as in the Disney "live action" remakes, especially The Lion King.
I was pretty impressed by the animal CGI in HBO’s His Dark Materials series. Not all of the shots are 100% photorealistic (especially the ones where the animals are talking, obviously), but a lot of them are. I found myself wondering whether some of the shots actually used trained animals, but I presume CGI is cheaper and easier if you’ve already built the character model.
posted by dephlogisticated at 2:20 PM on October 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
Thanks for the clarification, Joakim Ziegler and it seems you would know what you're talking about.
posted by dg at 2:44 PM on October 31, 2023
posted by dg at 2:44 PM on October 31, 2023
I think a lot of the "no CGI" stuff is a backlash to the Star Wars prequels, which were sort of the height of "we can do this all with computers!"
Because I'm that kind of obnoxious dork, I feel obligated to say that the prequels were absolutely packed with amazing miniature work. As I recall there were more miniatures in Phantom Menace alone than the entirety of the original trilogy. My favorite one is the wide shots of the stands for the podrace, where the audience members were actually painted q-tip style brushes stuck into slots. A fan was placed underneath the miniature to make them sway like a moving audience.
posted by brundlefly at 4:41 PM on October 31, 2023 [10 favorites]
Because I'm that kind of obnoxious dork, I feel obligated to say that the prequels were absolutely packed with amazing miniature work. As I recall there were more miniatures in Phantom Menace alone than the entirety of the original trilogy. My favorite one is the wide shots of the stands for the podrace, where the audience members were actually painted q-tip style brushes stuck into slots. A fan was placed underneath the miniature to make them sway like a moving audience.
posted by brundlefly at 4:41 PM on October 31, 2023 [10 favorites]
Because I'm that kind of obnoxious dork, I feel obligated to say that the prequels were absolutely packed with amazing miniature work. As I recall there were more miniatures in Phantom Menace alone than the entirety of the original trilogy. My favorite one is the wide shots of the stands for the podrace, where the audience members were actually painted q-tip style brushes stuck into slots. A fan was placed underneath the miniature to make them sway like a moving audience.
Yes, you're absolutely right. I almost added to my comment that the irony is that there are a lot of practical effects in the prequels, but they were overshadowed by the flashier CGI in the big action sequences.
posted by Ben Trismegistus at 6:47 AM on November 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
Yes, you're absolutely right. I almost added to my comment that the irony is that there are a lot of practical effects in the prequels, but they were overshadowed by the flashier CGI in the big action sequences.
posted by Ben Trismegistus at 6:47 AM on November 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
It blew my mind when I learned the pod racer hangars, were Qui-Gon has his bet with Watto, were miniatures.
posted by Atreides at 7:04 AM on November 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Atreides at 7:04 AM on November 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
Not to mention there were a bunch of miniatures in the Gore Verbinski Pirates of the Caribbean movies, and the Lord of the Rings movies were absolutely filled with them. Those were kind of the last gasps in terms of big budget Hollywood films using that kind of effects work.
posted by brundlefly at 7:14 AM on November 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by brundlefly at 7:14 AM on November 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
Oh! I went to a talk by Fon Davis, an effects/miniature guy who's worked on lots of stuff, including Star Wars. I had no idea, but the Matrix movies had a ton of it. The big ship crash in Matrix Revolutions is an amazing piece of miniature effects.
posted by brundlefly at 7:21 AM on November 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by brundlefly at 7:21 AM on November 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
Since we're now talking about miniatures, I have to bring up Wes Anderson's use of them.
posted by bbrown at 7:51 AM on November 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by bbrown at 7:51 AM on November 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
I think for me the films that soured me on CGI were the all the superhero things. Because they all have to build to a climactic ending sequence which is 20 minutes of spectacle; and not only is it formulaic, but because people don’t have superpowers, it has an inherent fakeness to it. If it’s done well, you can suspend disbelief, but it’s very easy to lose that, I find.
Whereas it makes a lot of sense for Top Gun, Fast and Furious, and Mission Impossible movies to market themselves as doing things ‘practically’ because fighter jets and cars do actually exist in the world.
posted by Bloxworth Snout at 10:34 AM on November 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
Whereas it makes a lot of sense for Top Gun, Fast and Furious, and Mission Impossible movies to market themselves as doing things ‘practically’ because fighter jets and cars do actually exist in the world.
posted by Bloxworth Snout at 10:34 AM on November 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
Yeah. Comics have "splash pages" to make the fiction explode a moment into a powerful eternity.
Trying to turn the Splash Page into cinema maybe really worked one time out of forty. Avengers Endgame.
That took ten years to build.
Trying to get to that Potency in a regular runtime is the real fantasy.
posted by eustatic at 7:09 PM on November 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
Trying to turn the Splash Page into cinema maybe really worked one time out of forty. Avengers Endgame.
That took ten years to build.
Trying to get to that Potency in a regular runtime is the real fantasy.
posted by eustatic at 7:09 PM on November 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
I had largely accepted by now that "no CGI" typically meant, "we erased a bunch of wires and landing mats, oh, and we replaced the background any time you can see down a street. And the sky, of course. Oh and added a little smoke and blood spatter. But the foreground thing that's the main focus of the shot, we filmed that."
So the idea that Maverick is really filming placeholder planes and then substituting them with a whole new model is not what I pictured for "no CGI."
I mean, they had Ahmed Best in a Jar Jar hat on the Phantom Menace. It works as a reference for the performance and lighting. But you wouldn't say that because a painter used a photo as a reference that the painting is a photo.
posted by RobotHero at 9:09 AM on November 3, 2023
So the idea that Maverick is really filming placeholder planes and then substituting them with a whole new model is not what I pictured for "no CGI."
I mean, they had Ahmed Best in a Jar Jar hat on the Phantom Menace. It works as a reference for the performance and lighting. But you wouldn't say that because a painter used a photo as a reference that the painting is a photo.
posted by RobotHero at 9:09 AM on November 3, 2023
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