After the Hit-and-Run
December 6, 2023 7:30 AM Subscribe
Lately, instead of emphasizing the importance of criminal consequences, advocates have begun calling for drivers who hit pedestrians or cyclists to be held accountable through “restorative justice,” a term for an increasingly popular set of practices that eschews a focus on punishment in favor of an emphasis on repair and an effort to meet victims’ needs (slJewishCurrents)
I know folks on the Blue have strong feelings as cyclists/pedestrians/drivers, so let's try to be kind.
I know folks on the Blue have strong feelings as cyclists/pedestrians/drivers, so let's try to be kind.
For too many drivers cyclists and pedestrians Do Not Matter. If you're a victim (or the survivors) you should certainly have the right to request "restorative justice" for those who have harmed you but it should not be the default.
posted by tommasz at 7:47 AM on December 6, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by tommasz at 7:47 AM on December 6, 2023 [9 favorites]
Here in Toronto, a police officer was just absolved for randomly running over someone taking a nap in a park, critically injuring them. We've also had drivers get off with no consequence for things like killing someone on the sidewalk with the only excuse being they were bending down to pick a water bottle up off the floor while operating a moving vehicle.
There are a lot of situations where restorative justice and carceral reform make sense. But that's for cases where a class of people are overtly incarcerated and mistreated by the justice system. Drivers who cause grievous bodily harm if not death are treated in the opposite manner - they rarely if ever see major consequences for their actions.
posted by thecjm at 7:51 AM on December 6, 2023 [20 favorites]
There are a lot of situations where restorative justice and carceral reform make sense. But that's for cases where a class of people are overtly incarcerated and mistreated by the justice system. Drivers who cause grievous bodily harm if not death are treated in the opposite manner - they rarely if ever see major consequences for their actions.
posted by thecjm at 7:51 AM on December 6, 2023 [20 favorites]
Drivers would be a lot more careful, I think, if driving was treated as a privilege (as they claim it is) rather than a right. Make the licensing much harder, not just a formality. And at a minimum, for example, you hit something with your car, you don't get to drive for five years, you hurt someone with your car, you don't get to drive again ever. But car culture has ensured that we treat vehicle ownership as a necessity and all externalities are just a tragic shame. Gotta get to work on time.
posted by seanmpuckett at 7:54 AM on December 6, 2023 [27 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 7:54 AM on December 6, 2023 [27 favorites]
Kinda shocked that Jewish Currents didn't include mention of Rabbi Danya Ruttenberg's excellent _On Repentance and Repair: Making Amends in an Unapologetic World_, which takes about restorative justice at all levels, from personal to institutional to governmental.
posted by hanov3r at 7:56 AM on December 6, 2023 [17 favorites]
posted by hanov3r at 7:56 AM on December 6, 2023 [17 favorites]
It’s very strange when you think about it that we’re more willing to sentence someone to time in prison than to the same period of time without driving.
posted by smelendez at 8:04 AM on December 6, 2023 [53 favorites]
posted by smelendez at 8:04 AM on December 6, 2023 [53 favorites]
I'm more in favor of abolition than against it, but on the other hand I was almost run off the road on my bike twice yesterday: once by a jacked up pickup truck in stop and go traffic with no ability for it to actually get anywhere — and while in a painted bike lane, and then on the way back by an out of service city bus after it rode my back wheel for two blocks.
Both while honking. So, no, I do not think I want to be thrown under a sociolegal or actual bus as an experiment and for want of a constituency, thanks.
Meanwhile, imagine the MADDened outcry if this were proposed for non-injury first-time DUIs, which could be most people if their restaurant valet was an undercover highway cop. And which disproportionately criminalizes the usual suspects in terms of socioeconomic strata, for life.
California's courts recently threw out the state's newly implemented judicial misdemeanor diversion program in application to DUIs, holding that the statute wasn't explicit enough in overturning an older law forbidding prosecutorial DUI diversion, contrary to the extremely clear legislative history (as the only kind of diversion that existed then — but of course, prosecutors were always in control of the charges they'd file and the plea bargain they'd accept).
(Unless you're a veteran. Then it's authorized, by civic guilt around PTSD.)
It's interesting how these kinds of policies reflect attitudes about who merits insulation against overreaching criminalization (drivers who weren't impaired but still broke the law and injured someone, and ran) and who doesn't (drivers who were impaired and injured no one, and who may have a substance abuse disorder, unless they 'served their country').
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:07 AM on December 6, 2023 [10 favorites]
Both while honking. So, no, I do not think I want to be thrown under a sociolegal or actual bus as an experiment and for want of a constituency, thanks.
Meanwhile, imagine the MADDened outcry if this were proposed for non-injury first-time DUIs, which could be most people if their restaurant valet was an undercover highway cop. And which disproportionately criminalizes the usual suspects in terms of socioeconomic strata, for life.
California's courts recently threw out the state's newly implemented judicial misdemeanor diversion program in application to DUIs, holding that the statute wasn't explicit enough in overturning an older law forbidding prosecutorial DUI diversion, contrary to the extremely clear legislative history (as the only kind of diversion that existed then — but of course, prosecutors were always in control of the charges they'd file and the plea bargain they'd accept).
(Unless you're a veteran. Then it's authorized, by civic guilt around PTSD.)
It's interesting how these kinds of policies reflect attitudes about who merits insulation against overreaching criminalization (drivers who weren't impaired but still broke the law and injured someone, and ran) and who doesn't (drivers who were impaired and injured no one, and who may have a substance abuse disorder, unless they 'served their country').
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:07 AM on December 6, 2023 [10 favorites]
Drivers would be a lot more careful, I think, if driving was treated as a privilege (as they claim it is) rather than a right.
Modern US city design is so terrible driving is basically required to be a right.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:19 AM on December 6, 2023 [8 favorites]
Modern US city design is so terrible driving is basically required to be a right.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:19 AM on December 6, 2023 [8 favorites]
It’s very strange when you think about it that we’re more willing to sentence someone to time in prison than to the same period of time without driving.
Short of 24/7 video surveillance it's impossible to ensure that someone with no/suspended/revoked license won't drive.
posted by tommasz at 8:23 AM on December 6, 2023 [5 favorites]
Short of 24/7 video surveillance it's impossible to ensure that someone with no/suspended/revoked license won't drive.
posted by tommasz at 8:23 AM on December 6, 2023 [5 favorites]
Modern US city design is so terrible driving is basically required to be a right.
While this may feel like a pithy critique of urban design in the US, it erases disabled people, many seniors, undocumented immigrants, and poor people, all of whom who still need to get around in both cities and rural areas without a car.
posted by gauche at 8:23 AM on December 6, 2023 [20 favorites]
While this may feel like a pithy critique of urban design in the US, it erases disabled people, many seniors, undocumented immigrants, and poor people, all of whom who still need to get around in both cities and rural areas without a car.
posted by gauche at 8:23 AM on December 6, 2023 [20 favorites]
I am usually one of those angry cyclist/pedestrians in Mefi threads (while also being a driver) because of the complete lack of regard drivers seem to have. But I found this piece really affecting.
It shouldn't surprise me that at least some drivers who injure or kill people in this way are deeply remorseful and impacted, and I do think it would be good for our system to offer possibility of reparations/restorative techniques to be available.
On the other hand, I worry about the nature of human brains, driving, and our built environment erasing even the most sincere intentions to be a safer driver. And that's the case whether there is restorative justice, prison time, or little to no consequences at all. I think a lot of my ability to be what I think of as a safe, cautious driver is because I don't drive much at all. I spend more time each week walking or biking than I do in a car, which constantly resets my perspective.
But if you drive a lot, or only drive, the way that our brains work is that you become so accustomed to driving that you behave on autopilot. And as your subconscious brain takes over more and more of the tasks of driving, your conscious brain becomes more easily distracted, perhaps even seeking out more interesting inputs (like your phone or daydreaming or whatever).
I don't think that restorative justice is any more or less likely than prison time and harsh sentences to prevent this natural tendency to misjudge the risk and responsibility of driving a vehicle. It just feels so hardwired into how the human brain works that safer street design seems like the only activity to actually change driver behavior. So although financial and emotional reparations might be useful for victims and/or perpetrators, it doesn't feel restorative in the sense of changing much the likelihood of it happening again when that person gets back to driving on a regular basis.
posted by misskaz at 8:33 AM on December 6, 2023 [15 favorites]
It shouldn't surprise me that at least some drivers who injure or kill people in this way are deeply remorseful and impacted, and I do think it would be good for our system to offer possibility of reparations/restorative techniques to be available.
On the other hand, I worry about the nature of human brains, driving, and our built environment erasing even the most sincere intentions to be a safer driver. And that's the case whether there is restorative justice, prison time, or little to no consequences at all. I think a lot of my ability to be what I think of as a safe, cautious driver is because I don't drive much at all. I spend more time each week walking or biking than I do in a car, which constantly resets my perspective.
But if you drive a lot, or only drive, the way that our brains work is that you become so accustomed to driving that you behave on autopilot. And as your subconscious brain takes over more and more of the tasks of driving, your conscious brain becomes more easily distracted, perhaps even seeking out more interesting inputs (like your phone or daydreaming or whatever).
I don't think that restorative justice is any more or less likely than prison time and harsh sentences to prevent this natural tendency to misjudge the risk and responsibility of driving a vehicle. It just feels so hardwired into how the human brain works that safer street design seems like the only activity to actually change driver behavior. So although financial and emotional reparations might be useful for victims and/or perpetrators, it doesn't feel restorative in the sense of changing much the likelihood of it happening again when that person gets back to driving on a regular basis.
posted by misskaz at 8:33 AM on December 6, 2023 [15 favorites]
Cause he's MY butler!
posted by Riptor at 8:50 AM on December 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Riptor at 8:50 AM on December 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
From the article:
And that, I think, is a matter of critical mass. When you say to yourself "my friend/family member might be out there."
posted by adamrice at 8:56 AM on December 6, 2023 [7 favorites]
she believed that the driver in Ron’s case had failed in “recognizing Ron’s humanity,”I think this is the core of the problem. Designing better intersections and bike lanes amounts to marginal tinkering (and realistically, budgets don't exist to improve bike lanes enough to make a difference). Motorists need to see cyclists and pedestrians as humans, and that fact needs to be important enough that they are more vigilant and more respectful.
And that, I think, is a matter of critical mass. When you say to yourself "my friend/family member might be out there."
posted by adamrice at 8:56 AM on December 6, 2023 [7 favorites]
Very thoughtful article, thank you for posting it.
posted by tiny frying pan at 8:57 AM on December 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by tiny frying pan at 8:57 AM on December 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
While this may feel like a pithy critique of urban design in the US, it erases disabled people, many seniors, undocumented immigrants, and poor people, all of whom who still need to get around in both cities and rural areas without a car.
It doesn't erase those people, it recognizes that they are put at even more disadvantage. Kids too. Kids can't drive.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:58 AM on December 6, 2023 [11 favorites]
It doesn't erase those people, it recognizes that they are put at even more disadvantage. Kids too. Kids can't drive.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:58 AM on December 6, 2023 [11 favorites]
Disclaimer: any and all measures will be meted out inequitably, that needs fixing and goes without saying, but there it is.
I think that as a preventative, people should be suspended from driving for a lot of offenses. A tangible hardship, especially one that puts the offender in the role of the victim or potential victims, might work a lot better than jail.
I would def. be bussing it for a month a year, and so would most of us. Until the car stops being a magic bubble where the driver is invincible.
We effed up the minute we allowed cars to move faster than 10 mph and allowed distractions in there. Starting with lighters and radios (which I can not live without), to smartphones now. We are all magic multitaskers behind the wheel. I mean that. I looked up from my radio interface to find I was neatly tailing the car in front of me and there was no memory of the light changing. Telling on myself here and I am a sometime cycle commuter.
posted by drowsy at 8:58 AM on December 6, 2023 [7 favorites]
I think that as a preventative, people should be suspended from driving for a lot of offenses. A tangible hardship, especially one that puts the offender in the role of the victim or potential victims, might work a lot better than jail.
I would def. be bussing it for a month a year, and so would most of us. Until the car stops being a magic bubble where the driver is invincible.
We effed up the minute we allowed cars to move faster than 10 mph and allowed distractions in there. Starting with lighters and radios (which I can not live without), to smartphones now. We are all magic multitaskers behind the wheel. I mean that. I looked up from my radio interface to find I was neatly tailing the car in front of me and there was no memory of the light changing. Telling on myself here and I am a sometime cycle commuter.
posted by drowsy at 8:58 AM on December 6, 2023 [7 favorites]
I don’t drive (tried to learn, was godawful at it, made life choices accordingly). Yesterday the bus I was on nearly killed a cyclist. I have no idea who was “at fault” but the driver’s road ragey behavior in the aftermath was scary enough that I submitted a complaint to the bus company. (Which I expect to have no effect, because there is a driver shortage.)
posted by eirias at 9:08 AM on December 6, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by eirias at 9:08 AM on December 6, 2023 [10 favorites]
But if you drive a lot, or only drive, the way that our brains work is that you become so accustomed to driving that you behave on autopilot. And as your subconscious brain takes over more and more of the tasks of driving, your conscious brain becomes more easily distracted, perhaps even seeking out more interesting inputs
1000 times this. I'm not a cyclist, but I do regularly commute by motorcycle. I do use a low volume of music (thanks, Bluetooth helmet) to provide input that helps me not be otherwise distracted in ways that I might be while safely tucked into my car.
posted by hanov3r at 9:11 AM on December 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
1000 times this. I'm not a cyclist, but I do regularly commute by motorcycle. I do use a low volume of music (thanks, Bluetooth helmet) to provide input that helps me not be otherwise distracted in ways that I might be while safely tucked into my car.
posted by hanov3r at 9:11 AM on December 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
according to my dad, I was a "naturally good driver". By which he meant, from the first time I got behind the wheel, I had a natural feel for the road. I wasn't intimidated. I anticipated well what was coming up. I suppose Marshall McLuhan would say, I very easily slipped into that mode where the technology (the car) became an extension of myself.
Did this make me a safe driver? Not really. In fact, within ten minutes of being behind the wheel the first time, I was speeding. And though I had a pretty good driving record compared to various friends, I still got way more than my share of tickets (also minor accidents etc) by the time I hit my twenty-first birthday.
But since then, I've had exactly three driving related tickets in the intervening over forty years, and none in the past thirty. And zero accidents.
So what changed? I got a job as cab driver around the time I turned twenty-one. Suddenly I was on the road A LOT and in my first few weeks on the job, I quickly got two tickets. Minor stuff but if I got a third before the month was up, my license would get suspended and I'd lose my job. And I liked that job. So I slowed down. I came to a complete stop at stop signs. I didn't get ambitious with amber lights. I became way more conscious.
I became a much safer driver.
What's my point here? My habits changed not because I was particularly concerned about the safety or autonomy of others with whom I was sharing the road (that would come in time, with maturity) but because the stakes got raised. Refuse to change your habits, said the law, and you'll lose the first job you've ever had that you actually liked.
TLDR: yes, absolutely to raising the stakes for dangerous driving, even minor stuff. In my case, taking on a driving related job raised the stakes for me in the "three strikes in one month and you're out" road rules of the time. But for most people who aren't on the road as much as twelve hours a day, that just isn't near enough.
posted by philip-random at 9:12 AM on December 6, 2023 [22 favorites]
Did this make me a safe driver? Not really. In fact, within ten minutes of being behind the wheel the first time, I was speeding. And though I had a pretty good driving record compared to various friends, I still got way more than my share of tickets (also minor accidents etc) by the time I hit my twenty-first birthday.
But since then, I've had exactly three driving related tickets in the intervening over forty years, and none in the past thirty. And zero accidents.
So what changed? I got a job as cab driver around the time I turned twenty-one. Suddenly I was on the road A LOT and in my first few weeks on the job, I quickly got two tickets. Minor stuff but if I got a third before the month was up, my license would get suspended and I'd lose my job. And I liked that job. So I slowed down. I came to a complete stop at stop signs. I didn't get ambitious with amber lights. I became way more conscious.
I became a much safer driver.
What's my point here? My habits changed not because I was particularly concerned about the safety or autonomy of others with whom I was sharing the road (that would come in time, with maturity) but because the stakes got raised. Refuse to change your habits, said the law, and you'll lose the first job you've ever had that you actually liked.
TLDR: yes, absolutely to raising the stakes for dangerous driving, even minor stuff. In my case, taking on a driving related job raised the stakes for me in the "three strikes in one month and you're out" road rules of the time. But for most people who aren't on the road as much as twelve hours a day, that just isn't near enough.
posted by philip-random at 9:12 AM on December 6, 2023 [22 favorites]
I'm a frequent pedestrian, and I get really angry at careless or malicious drivers. But restorative justice is a good thing.
I think we would be better served by not letting our responses as a society be based on how personally upset things make us.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 9:17 AM on December 6, 2023 [16 favorites]
I think we would be better served by not letting our responses as a society be based on how personally upset things make us.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 9:17 AM on December 6, 2023 [16 favorites]
I too am sympathetic to abolition (in some cases, at least) and I like the idea of restorative, particularly in the way Canada's indigenous people implement it, but I doubt that incarceration or any other kind of "justice" will address this particular problem in any meaningful way. In particular, because these are interventions after-the-fact. A conscience is ideally pre-emptive. The just outcome, if there is one, is to stop these crimes from happening in the first place.
Cars have an interesting way of separating us from our humanity. We tell ourselves lies about our own competence, we become more aggressive and demanding. We become less empathetic and more antisocial. It's not an accident either. The entire media and marketing landscape is designed to cultivate these feelings, especially in men, encouraging us to buy vehicles that enable us to treat other human beings as disposable.
The crimes that people commit in their cars aren't really rational or premeditated like some crimes, they're the result of a mindset and complementary emotional state that just makes people inherently dangerous, not unlike the mentality that can arise around guns. Most of MetaFilter agrees that one of the best ways to neutralize the dangerous gun mindset is, first, to control access to guns. Shouldn't we also agree that the way to neutralize the dangerous driver mindset is to control access to cars?
The main reason infrastructure design (not legislation) is so effective at controlling speeds is because it acts on a subconscious level to trigger our perception of risk. Which is important, because the only thing that can change the mindset of a driver is the perception of personal risk. To their safety, to their pocket book, or to the car itself, which often functions as an extension of one's identity.
So all that is to say, I don't think punishment or the performance of accountability really matter all that much. I think if you want people to drive safely (at least to the extent that humans can), you have to introduce a consequences that matter to the driver, pre-emptively and in real time. What consequences? I don't know, but it's not restorative justice.
As a cyclist I just assume that this will be the way I die. I and my partner try not to talk about it, just to prepare ourselves. It might be hard to believe, but knowing that the person who eventually kills me might have the chance alleviate their feelings of guilt through restorative justice with a surrogate gives me zero comfort.
posted by klanawa at 9:36 AM on December 6, 2023 [14 favorites]
Cars have an interesting way of separating us from our humanity. We tell ourselves lies about our own competence, we become more aggressive and demanding. We become less empathetic and more antisocial. It's not an accident either. The entire media and marketing landscape is designed to cultivate these feelings, especially in men, encouraging us to buy vehicles that enable us to treat other human beings as disposable.
The crimes that people commit in their cars aren't really rational or premeditated like some crimes, they're the result of a mindset and complementary emotional state that just makes people inherently dangerous, not unlike the mentality that can arise around guns. Most of MetaFilter agrees that one of the best ways to neutralize the dangerous gun mindset is, first, to control access to guns. Shouldn't we also agree that the way to neutralize the dangerous driver mindset is to control access to cars?
The main reason infrastructure design (not legislation) is so effective at controlling speeds is because it acts on a subconscious level to trigger our perception of risk. Which is important, because the only thing that can change the mindset of a driver is the perception of personal risk. To their safety, to their pocket book, or to the car itself, which often functions as an extension of one's identity.
So all that is to say, I don't think punishment or the performance of accountability really matter all that much. I think if you want people to drive safely (at least to the extent that humans can), you have to introduce a consequences that matter to the driver, pre-emptively and in real time. What consequences? I don't know, but it's not restorative justice.
As a cyclist I just assume that this will be the way I die. I and my partner try not to talk about it, just to prepare ourselves. It might be hard to believe, but knowing that the person who eventually kills me might have the chance alleviate their feelings of guilt through restorative justice with a surrogate gives me zero comfort.
posted by klanawa at 9:36 AM on December 6, 2023 [14 favorites]
...no memory of the light changing.
posted by drowsy
epony... never mind.
With the proliferation of multiple new electronic distractions both in and out of the car--flashing lights, moving advertising, digital road warnings--any alert, well rested driver will have moments they can't keep their eyes and attention on driving. Then add in our increasing national sleep-debt.
I want weregild paid direct to victims and families. Then the car needs to be sold and replaced with an ebike, and the driver spends the rest of their life commuting on two wheels or using an uber. I think those two consequences--losing money and the privilege of driving--would stun and deter drivers more than a jail sentence.
Short of 24/7 video surveillance it's impossible to ensure that someone with no/suspended/revoked license won't drive.
True. But if you are not allowed to own a car, and you have to wear a bracelet (or have an app on your phone) that would let authorities track your speed, that would stop quite a few more or less law-abiding people. Those that choose to continue to drive illegally can be caught by tracking algorithms. Nobody wants government monitoring, but it's here anyway, might as well use it for some good. We all hate big brother, but nobody talks about getting rid of their cell phone.
posted by BlueHorse at 9:40 AM on December 6, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by drowsy
epony... never mind.
With the proliferation of multiple new electronic distractions both in and out of the car--flashing lights, moving advertising, digital road warnings--any alert, well rested driver will have moments they can't keep their eyes and attention on driving. Then add in our increasing national sleep-debt.
I want weregild paid direct to victims and families. Then the car needs to be sold and replaced with an ebike, and the driver spends the rest of their life commuting on two wheels or using an uber. I think those two consequences--losing money and the privilege of driving--would stun and deter drivers more than a jail sentence.
Short of 24/7 video surveillance it's impossible to ensure that someone with no/suspended/revoked license won't drive.
True. But if you are not allowed to own a car, and you have to wear a bracelet (or have an app on your phone) that would let authorities track your speed, that would stop quite a few more or less law-abiding people. Those that choose to continue to drive illegally can be caught by tracking algorithms. Nobody wants government monitoring, but it's here anyway, might as well use it for some good. We all hate big brother, but nobody talks about getting rid of their cell phone.
posted by BlueHorse at 9:40 AM on December 6, 2023 [4 favorites]
A few years ago I came across this list of punishment philosophies:
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 9:46 AM on December 6, 2023 [10 favorites]
- Retribution
- Deterrence
- Rehabilitation
- Incapacitation
- Restoration
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 9:46 AM on December 6, 2023 [10 favorites]
We've simply reached the resignation stage:
"Hey drivers, please stop killing pedestrians and cyclists."
"No."
"Hey authorities, please stop drivers from killing pedestrians and cyclists."
"No."
"Okay, fine, I guess we'll try to get drivers to say they're sorry when they kill people."
posted by star gentle uterus at 9:48 AM on December 6, 2023 [14 favorites]
"Hey drivers, please stop killing pedestrians and cyclists."
"No."
"Hey authorities, please stop drivers from killing pedestrians and cyclists."
"No."
"Okay, fine, I guess we'll try to get drivers to say they're sorry when they kill people."
posted by star gentle uterus at 9:48 AM on December 6, 2023 [14 favorites]
I have read the article, and my personal feeling is that I cannot imagine any restorative justice scenario that I would consider sufficient for the loss of my father. This is not fully a hypothetical - early in November, he was hit by a driver (not a car, a driver) while biking to work and left to die on the side of the road. He was unconscious for a half hour. He survived, thankfully - relatively unharmed, miraculously! - but the driver did not stop. (And, as we would later find out, the driver was in a stolen car and intentionally hit my father - there's video of him swerving into the shoulder to run him down.) If he had died, do I think an apology would be sufficient? Absolutely not. What is the restoration here? Money? Paid help for my now-widowed mother? It's the Inigo Montoya question - "I want my father back, you son of a bitch."
Does this make me cruel and uncaring? Maybe, but here's what I see every day as a non-driving commuter: people in cars flouting the laws because they prioritize saving ten seconds on their trip over the lives of others. People (People! Not cars!) parking illegally in bike lanes and on sidewalks, forcing cyclists and pedestrians into traffic, because they can't be bothered to walk twenty feet. People (not cars!) blowing through stop signs and crosswalks. People (not vehicles!) treating non-drivers as less than human - no, less than animals, because these drivers will stop to let squirrels cross the street but will imperil other humans because they're angry that they missed the last green light.
The week after my father was hit, I was nearly right hooked by a driver in an enormous pickup who didn't bother using his turn signals. He yelled at me for not signaling using my hands (I was going straight!). I do not believe people like this have the possibility of remorse, when they see people outside of cars as mere inconveniences, mere (quite literal) bumps in the road. I am angry and I want vengeance.
posted by backseatpilot at 9:51 AM on December 6, 2023 [42 favorites]
Does this make me cruel and uncaring? Maybe, but here's what I see every day as a non-driving commuter: people in cars flouting the laws because they prioritize saving ten seconds on their trip over the lives of others. People (People! Not cars!) parking illegally in bike lanes and on sidewalks, forcing cyclists and pedestrians into traffic, because they can't be bothered to walk twenty feet. People (not cars!) blowing through stop signs and crosswalks. People (not vehicles!) treating non-drivers as less than human - no, less than animals, because these drivers will stop to let squirrels cross the street but will imperil other humans because they're angry that they missed the last green light.
The week after my father was hit, I was nearly right hooked by a driver in an enormous pickup who didn't bother using his turn signals. He yelled at me for not signaling using my hands (I was going straight!). I do not believe people like this have the possibility of remorse, when they see people outside of cars as mere inconveniences, mere (quite literal) bumps in the road. I am angry and I want vengeance.
posted by backseatpilot at 9:51 AM on December 6, 2023 [42 favorites]
Short of 24/7 video surveillance it's impossible to ensure that someone with no/suspended/revoked license won't drive.
Yes, somewhere around 11-25% of drivers are unlicensed and uninsured. That's a huge percentage.
posted by The_Vegetables at 9:52 AM on December 6, 2023
Yes, somewhere around 11-25% of drivers are unlicensed and uninsured. That's a huge percentage.
posted by The_Vegetables at 9:52 AM on December 6, 2023
Speaking for myself, and only myself, I am solely a pedestrian--I gave up cycling in my midsized Canadian city a year ago after too many close calls--and I struggle a lot with my feelings when I read about another pedestrian or cyclist hit by a driver, and the driver has no repercussions but there's a family grieving a father, a parent, a partner, a child. I don't know how I feel about restorative justice, but I was interested enough to make a FPP about it.
A long term cycling advocate was killed here in Kingston a few weeks ago at a known shitty intersection, and there was more sympathy and angst over the driver, while the gentleman in question was reduced to "cyclists don't follow the rules of the road" and another assorted anecdotes about cyclists and walkers that were not kind. I really do feel that people who only drive sometimes lack that empathy that someone killed in that manner is a loss to others.
posted by Kitteh at 10:06 AM on December 6, 2023 [13 favorites]
A long term cycling advocate was killed here in Kingston a few weeks ago at a known shitty intersection, and there was more sympathy and angst over the driver, while the gentleman in question was reduced to "cyclists don't follow the rules of the road" and another assorted anecdotes about cyclists and walkers that were not kind. I really do feel that people who only drive sometimes lack that empathy that someone killed in that manner is a loss to others.
posted by Kitteh at 10:06 AM on December 6, 2023 [13 favorites]
$.02 My mother worked in restorative justice programs as part of a state prison system. As a kid I'd tag along to some of these meetings and of course it was a dinner time discussion. People often get the impression that the offender is going to only have to pay lip service to their harm and it’s done. Say you’re sorry, and write a letter, something like that. Restorative justice practitioners are fully aware of this, and in my observations this is not the case.
These meetings of which there are often multiple, are brutal, with real breakthroughs and restoration going on. I don’t like to say that offenders are forced to see the humanity of their victims, but they are sure to be guided to that step. This often brings up a whole host of issues for both parties.
I even know of one case in which the offender intentionally re-offended just to get out of the restorative justice program because "lockup is something I can do". These programs aren’t cheap, they aren’t easy, and they aren’t simple compared to prison but in my experience they do work.
posted by Agent_X_ at 10:42 AM on December 6, 2023 [24 favorites]
These meetings of which there are often multiple, are brutal, with real breakthroughs and restoration going on. I don’t like to say that offenders are forced to see the humanity of their victims, but they are sure to be guided to that step. This often brings up a whole host of issues for both parties.
I even know of one case in which the offender intentionally re-offended just to get out of the restorative justice program because "lockup is something I can do". These programs aren’t cheap, they aren’t easy, and they aren’t simple compared to prison but in my experience they do work.
posted by Agent_X_ at 10:42 AM on December 6, 2023 [24 favorites]
Short of 24/7 video surveillance it's impossible to ensure that someone with no/suspended/revoked license won't drive.
Take their license, take their car, and make it illegal to loan, rent, or sell them a car. People are a lot less likely to drive when they have no car for the duration of the suspension.
And instead of fines, impound cars. Doesn't matter if you're driving your car or someone else's -- mom's car? company car? rental car? you'll have to work it out with them -- that car is gone for X days because you got a speeding ticket or ran a stop. If you're drunk, you don't ever get that car or your license back; make people think twice about letting someone like you borrow their car.
posted by pracowity at 11:20 AM on December 6, 2023 [15 favorites]
Take their license, take their car, and make it illegal to loan, rent, or sell them a car. People are a lot less likely to drive when they have no car for the duration of the suspension.
And instead of fines, impound cars. Doesn't matter if you're driving your car or someone else's -- mom's car? company car? rental car? you'll have to work it out with them -- that car is gone for X days because you got a speeding ticket or ran a stop. If you're drunk, you don't ever get that car or your license back; make people think twice about letting someone like you borrow their car.
posted by pracowity at 11:20 AM on December 6, 2023 [15 favorites]
Short of 24/7 video surveillance it's impossible to ensure that someone with no/suspended/revoked license won't drive.
The fact that people with suspended licenses are able to borrow cars from family and friends, if not outright purchase their own vehicles, is something that needs to be clamped down on as well.
When a repeat drunk driver "borrows" a family member's car, that family member should face consequences as well.
posted by thecjm at 11:27 AM on December 6, 2023 [9 favorites]
The fact that people with suspended licenses are able to borrow cars from family and friends, if not outright purchase their own vehicles, is something that needs to be clamped down on as well.
When a repeat drunk driver "borrows" a family member's car, that family member should face consequences as well.
posted by thecjm at 11:27 AM on December 6, 2023 [9 favorites]
When I lived in Portland, I would bike circuitous routes because "that direct route is deadly" I would say. And then someone would die on it. Literally every single route I didn't take that I can think of had someone die on it.
Now I live somewhere where there are no circuitous routes. I take the direct route when there's no other way. For me as the person biking, there's no other way.
For the people responsible for the infrastructure, there absolutely is another way. I want the people running and funding the departments of transportation to go through restorative justice.
posted by aniola at 11:28 AM on December 6, 2023 [11 favorites]
Now I live somewhere where there are no circuitous routes. I take the direct route when there's no other way. For me as the person biking, there's no other way.
For the people responsible for the infrastructure, there absolutely is another way. I want the people running and funding the departments of transportation to go through restorative justice.
posted by aniola at 11:28 AM on December 6, 2023 [11 favorites]
Thank you for your perspective on this, Agent_X_. My dad was killed by a drunk driver (he was in a car, not on his bike) and I have to say that I felt some sympathy for the drunk driver UNTIL we received her "apology" letter that I believe was part of her sentencing. It was the most generic bullshit - like worse than the worst college application essay you could ever imagine - and it made me feel like she didn't learn anything. I would like to think that restorative justice would mean something more than whatever that was.
posted by queensissy at 11:56 AM on December 6, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by queensissy at 11:56 AM on December 6, 2023 [8 favorites]
The best type of justice to apply to a person who hits someone with their car is to have them not hit someone with their car. The good news on this is that vanishingly few people actually set out to hit people with their car; there is a larger but still small group who set out to deliberately drive dangerously in a way that makes it likely they hit someone. There are many other crimes like burglary and tax evasion where the perpetrator gets a real benefit from committing the crime, and they plan their day to set out to do the crime.
What's useful in particular are measures like speed and red light cameras that can both remove the police/carceral system from traffic law enforcement while simultaneously actually changing behaviour on a societal level. When speeding tickets are like a bad lottery ticket -- the same as hitting someone -- then everybody will drive like they are unlikely to win. When they're inevitable, then people will drive appropriately.
Yes, somewhere around 11-25% of drivers are unlicensed and uninsured. That's a huge percentage.
But that's not a law of physics or anything; it's a policy choice. In most US states the penalty for uninsured driving is a pittance; typically around $250 or so -- there are more states where it's $50 and under than where it's over $500.
Here in Alberta, where the minimum first-offence fine for driving without insurance is almost $3,000 and driving without insurance fines can be as high as $10,000; over 98% of cars are insured to 5 times higher than the legal minimum. (And other regulations ensure that auto insurance is available to everybody.)
Treating crimes committed in a motor vehicle as facing serious consequences reduces them.
posted by Superilla at 12:02 PM on December 6, 2023 [11 favorites]
What's useful in particular are measures like speed and red light cameras that can both remove the police/carceral system from traffic law enforcement while simultaneously actually changing behaviour on a societal level. When speeding tickets are like a bad lottery ticket -- the same as hitting someone -- then everybody will drive like they are unlikely to win. When they're inevitable, then people will drive appropriately.
Yes, somewhere around 11-25% of drivers are unlicensed and uninsured. That's a huge percentage.
But that's not a law of physics or anything; it's a policy choice. In most US states the penalty for uninsured driving is a pittance; typically around $250 or so -- there are more states where it's $50 and under than where it's over $500.
Here in Alberta, where the minimum first-offence fine for driving without insurance is almost $3,000 and driving without insurance fines can be as high as $10,000; over 98% of cars are insured to 5 times higher than the legal minimum. (And other regulations ensure that auto insurance is available to everybody.)
Treating crimes committed in a motor vehicle as facing serious consequences reduces them.
posted by Superilla at 12:02 PM on December 6, 2023 [11 favorites]
It was interesting how in both the writer's case and Ron's/Robin's there was no restorative procedure to take advantage of. It didn't seem as if the incarceration of Anna, the driver that killed Ron, improved things for anyone but I don't know how Robin would have dealt with things if not even that happened, and even then it was just a year for ending someone's life.
Enforcement of traffic laws, or the severe lack of it, seems to be the bigger problem than trying to deal with offenders after the fact, especially given the difficulties of tacking restorative procedures onto the existing carceral and liability ones. Widespread speeding cameras. Red light cameras that catch people running red lights as well as those not stopping at them before making a right turn (in jurisdictions where you're allowed to turn right on a red). Allowing people with dash cams to submit footage that will actually result in fines. If people knew they'd get a ticket for breaking the law they'd stop breaking the law, it's only because the chances of getting caught are so slim that some people choose to ignore the law.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 12:20 PM on December 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
Enforcement of traffic laws, or the severe lack of it, seems to be the bigger problem than trying to deal with offenders after the fact, especially given the difficulties of tacking restorative procedures onto the existing carceral and liability ones. Widespread speeding cameras. Red light cameras that catch people running red lights as well as those not stopping at them before making a right turn (in jurisdictions where you're allowed to turn right on a red). Allowing people with dash cams to submit footage that will actually result in fines. If people knew they'd get a ticket for breaking the law they'd stop breaking the law, it's only because the chances of getting caught are so slim that some people choose to ignore the law.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 12:20 PM on December 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
Thanks for the post, OP! I was struck by two passages in particular in this excellent article.
1. In a forthcoming conversation on abolition in the Radical History Review, the organizer and law professor Dean Spade argues that “the existing criminal punishment system . . . wants us to be as passive as possible and not solve our own problems with each other.” This, he said, is why envisioning a prison-free world is “hard for a lot of people who are new to the analysis . . . It’s a tall order to actually know our neighbors, to care about each other, to get better at having hard conversations.”
2. I am trying to let go of the idea that a solution has to do everything in order to do something. Even if some harm-doers seem unrepentant, there are more people than we might expect who want to make amends. It’s at least a place to start.
That seems about right to me, as person who walks, takes public transit, and only rarely bikes these days. If some fucker killed someone I loved, I would want them to get jail time. But I would also want both of us or all of us to have ways to heal. This does seem like a start to me.
posted by Bella Donna at 12:45 PM on December 6, 2023 [4 favorites]
1. In a forthcoming conversation on abolition in the Radical History Review, the organizer and law professor Dean Spade argues that “the existing criminal punishment system . . . wants us to be as passive as possible and not solve our own problems with each other.” This, he said, is why envisioning a prison-free world is “hard for a lot of people who are new to the analysis . . . It’s a tall order to actually know our neighbors, to care about each other, to get better at having hard conversations.”
2. I am trying to let go of the idea that a solution has to do everything in order to do something. Even if some harm-doers seem unrepentant, there are more people than we might expect who want to make amends. It’s at least a place to start.
That seems about right to me, as person who walks, takes public transit, and only rarely bikes these days. If some fucker killed someone I loved, I would want them to get jail time. But I would also want both of us or all of us to have ways to heal. This does seem like a start to me.
posted by Bella Donna at 12:45 PM on December 6, 2023 [4 favorites]
From the article:
she believed that the driver in Ron’s case had failed in “recognizing Ron’s humanity,”
But this is just another aspect of the same lumbering behemoth we've been fighting for many years now, especially since 2015, most especially since 2020, isn't it? Everywhere we turn, there's a massive and increasing disconnect in people's ability or willingness to recognize the essential humanity of other people.
Drivers kill because people walking or biking around them register as less human, they're just obstacles. People refuse to isolate or vaccinate or wear masks because their convenience outweighs the lives of the people around them. Conservative leaders and voters support draconian laws and take basic human rights away because the essential humanity of women or trans kids or immigrants just doesn't register with them. Hamas refuses to see Israeli citizens as human, and the IDF refuses to recognize any Palestinian as human. In less than a year, there's about a 50/50 chance that the US will be governed by a coalition whose primary goal is dehumanization and punishment for everyone they see as unworthy.
To the extent that restorative justice might serve to address this specific problem, it's worth considering, sure. But even if it's super effective, it feels like stacking sandbags against a tsunami, and there's evidence (some in this very thread) that it's sometimes more performative and hollow than meaningful to either party. You can make people go through the motions to acknowledge a specific harm they've done and make amends, but how do you make them acknowledge the humanity and worth of other people when whatever ability they've had to empathize has eroded away to nothing? How do you un-fracture a society that's splintered into jagged pieces as thoroughly as ours has?
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 12:49 PM on December 6, 2023 [9 favorites]
she believed that the driver in Ron’s case had failed in “recognizing Ron’s humanity,”
But this is just another aspect of the same lumbering behemoth we've been fighting for many years now, especially since 2015, most especially since 2020, isn't it? Everywhere we turn, there's a massive and increasing disconnect in people's ability or willingness to recognize the essential humanity of other people.
Drivers kill because people walking or biking around them register as less human, they're just obstacles. People refuse to isolate or vaccinate or wear masks because their convenience outweighs the lives of the people around them. Conservative leaders and voters support draconian laws and take basic human rights away because the essential humanity of women or trans kids or immigrants just doesn't register with them. Hamas refuses to see Israeli citizens as human, and the IDF refuses to recognize any Palestinian as human. In less than a year, there's about a 50/50 chance that the US will be governed by a coalition whose primary goal is dehumanization and punishment for everyone they see as unworthy.
To the extent that restorative justice might serve to address this specific problem, it's worth considering, sure. But even if it's super effective, it feels like stacking sandbags against a tsunami, and there's evidence (some in this very thread) that it's sometimes more performative and hollow than meaningful to either party. You can make people go through the motions to acknowledge a specific harm they've done and make amends, but how do you make them acknowledge the humanity and worth of other people when whatever ability they've had to empathize has eroded away to nothing? How do you un-fracture a society that's splintered into jagged pieces as thoroughly as ours has?
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 12:49 PM on December 6, 2023 [9 favorites]
Pedaling Toward a More Just BFA Program: Removing “Enforcement” from our Framework
But “Enforcement” does not equal “Safety” for many People of Color, particularly Black Americans. The racial disparities in over-policing of our streets is a barrier that prevents many from considering biking for transportation or recreation. Enforcement as a stand-alone traffic safety tactic is not particularly effective in achieving long-term safety outcomes for anyone biking or walking.posted by aniola at 1:00 PM on December 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
Restorative justice is a joke. Tons of people getting salaries or grants for promoting it, tons of crooks pretending to play along to reduce their sentences, tons of victims being further victimized by being bullied into playing along with it.
Take away the leniency and the paydays, and you'll see the actual organic value of it: zero.
posted by MattD at 1:50 PM on December 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
Take away the leniency and the paydays, and you'll see the actual organic value of it: zero.
posted by MattD at 1:50 PM on December 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
I don't think restorative justice is a joke but it isn't something that will apply in a lot of circumstances. For something like where a driver kills a pedestrian it might make sense because in almost all cases the jail sentence is a slap on the wrist already, like 1 year for not paying attention at the wheel, killing someone, and driving away oblivious. What does that do for the victim's loved ones? And it isn't even a deterrent. If governments aren't going to legislate real punishments for these situations like mandatory permanent or long-term licence suspensions and significant jail time then maybe a restorative process could be better for everyone involved.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 2:42 PM on December 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 2:42 PM on December 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
Restorative justice is a joke. Tons of people getting salaries or grants for promoting it, tons of crooks pretending to play along to reduce their sentences, tons of victims being further victimized by being bullied into playing along with it.
... but this all happens with the regular system as well.
posted by oneirodynia at 3:53 PM on December 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
... but this all happens with the regular system as well.
posted by oneirodynia at 3:53 PM on December 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
And though the 'regular system' pretends to be rehabilitative ("corrections"), in actuality and as funded it is entirely retributive.
Accomplishing little, aside from fattening the jailors (and reproducing the extant social structure), as those in it were evidently not deterred; and everyone else carries on as ever.
(Not that I have any magic answers.)
posted by snuffleupagus at 4:41 PM on December 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
Accomplishing little, aside from fattening the jailors (and reproducing the extant social structure), as those in it were evidently not deterred; and everyone else carries on as ever.
(Not that I have any magic answers.)
posted by snuffleupagus at 4:41 PM on December 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
Restorative justice is a joke. Tons of people getting salaries or grants for promoting it, tons of crooks pretending to play along to reduce their sentences, tons of victims being further victimized by being bullied into playing along with it.
... but this all happens with the regular system as well.
But in the regular system, the people getting all these salaries are third party corporations getting rich by selling services to jails and prisons, and that's okay. Nothing should ever tamper with the prison-industrial complex. Certainly not non-profits trying to find another way to actually restore and rehabilitate instead of just punish.
posted by hydropsyche at 5:08 PM on December 6, 2023 [5 favorites]
... but this all happens with the regular system as well.
But in the regular system, the people getting all these salaries are third party corporations getting rich by selling services to jails and prisons, and that's okay. Nothing should ever tamper with the prison-industrial complex. Certainly not non-profits trying to find another way to actually restore and rehabilitate instead of just punish.
posted by hydropsyche at 5:08 PM on December 6, 2023 [5 favorites]
When a repeat drunk driver "borrows" a family member's car, that family member should face consequences as well.
Florida has pretty fucking strict (monetary) liability for the car owners, and it's still an utter shit show.
Every day I walk, which is most days, I see the problem. It's the infrastructure. Because we have made it a near-necessity to drive in most of the country and the fact that drivers were killing themselves at an absurd rate we have been prioritizing the safety and convenience of drivers over all other considerations. This promotes an exaggerated sense of safety that encourages aggressive driving. Additionally, it gives the false expectation that only cars will be in the space.
As a small example, in my experience drivers pay a hell of a lot less attention at signalized intersections than they do intersections that just have stop signs. Where a neighborhood collector meets the absurdly large arterial, drivers actually take care and notice I'm there trying to cross the road. A block away where a signal exists, they're fixated on state of the light rather than the traffic, including pedestrians or cyclists. When drivers actually see me, they're almost always reasonably, sometimes even excessively, courteous. When they don't, I'm liable to be roadkill.
We're waging psychological warfare against drivers at the behest of the auto lobby and we will make little progress in improving the lives of non-drivers until we stop doing that. Unfortunately, much of it comes in the form of infrastructure that will take a generation to fix. Thankfully, some cities are beginning to pull their heads out of their asses, at least in fits and starts.
posted by wierdo at 5:28 PM on December 6, 2023 [6 favorites]
Florida has pretty fucking strict (monetary) liability for the car owners, and it's still an utter shit show.
Every day I walk, which is most days, I see the problem. It's the infrastructure. Because we have made it a near-necessity to drive in most of the country and the fact that drivers were killing themselves at an absurd rate we have been prioritizing the safety and convenience of drivers over all other considerations. This promotes an exaggerated sense of safety that encourages aggressive driving. Additionally, it gives the false expectation that only cars will be in the space.
As a small example, in my experience drivers pay a hell of a lot less attention at signalized intersections than they do intersections that just have stop signs. Where a neighborhood collector meets the absurdly large arterial, drivers actually take care and notice I'm there trying to cross the road. A block away where a signal exists, they're fixated on state of the light rather than the traffic, including pedestrians or cyclists. When drivers actually see me, they're almost always reasonably, sometimes even excessively, courteous. When they don't, I'm liable to be roadkill.
We're waging psychological warfare against drivers at the behest of the auto lobby and we will make little progress in improving the lives of non-drivers until we stop doing that. Unfortunately, much of it comes in the form of infrastructure that will take a generation to fix. Thankfully, some cities are beginning to pull their heads out of their asses, at least in fits and starts.
posted by wierdo at 5:28 PM on December 6, 2023 [6 favorites]
Cf., “Harm and Justice” [2:04:00]—The Leftist Cooks, 29 November 2023
posted by ob1quixote at 6:44 PM on December 6, 2023
posted by ob1quixote at 6:44 PM on December 6, 2023
Just to say right from the start, I don't live in the USA anymore. When I did, I never got a license because when I was in kindergarten my mother was t-boned by an uninsured driver in a speeding pickup truck and after the trauma and injuries changed everything for her and for our whole family forever, I wasn't really into shouldering the responsibility of driving. I still think it's a good reason and I still don't think the convenience is worth the destructive potential.
So I always gravitated toward city life, making the metaphorical trek back from the suburbs where I grew up, to places with public transportation and pedestrian convenience.
Now I live in Japan, which is actually a public commuter's dream in a lot of ways, inasmuch as the trains and buses go pretty much everywhere. A person can actually live in many suburbs without needing to drive.
On the other hand, the driving culture here is a pedestrian's nightmare. Most places don't have actual sidewalks, just a line painted on the roadside indicating that pedestrians should be safe if they walk in the gutter. People throw on their hazard lights before doing whatever they want with their cars, including driving right up to a pedestrian and waiting for you to walk around them.
Some of the shithousery is just nonsense, like the law that tells drivers to flash their high-beams if they see pedestrians on the side of the road at night. For a long time I thought they were just fucking with me! They're still assholes.
One rainy night I was almost home from work when a driver turned right into me while looking left, smashing me to the pavement and not stopping until their front tire was crushing my foot. I'm lucky and resilient, so I got away with a cracked wrist bone, a couple fractured foot bones, and a contusion on my shin that took a year to fade away. I was off work for six weeks until I was fully healed (I work with infants and toddlers, who stand on feet and pull on hands all day long, or I would have been pushed back into the workplace much earlier).
This was a few years ago, and I'm still skittish walking at night, especially in the rain.
The police encouraged me to not file a complaint against the driver, because the intersection is difficult for drivers to navigate, and the court system is difficult for foreigners to navigate. The driver's insurance paid me for my emergency visit and rehabilitation and for my time off work, and for the raincoat and trousers that she ruined with her car.
When I went back to work I was made to apologize for the inconvenience I had caused my coworkers and managers, and for having made them worry about my condition. Eventually the company delayed an overdue promotion for me, telling me explicitly that my six weeks off work were unfair to my students.
There's no point in fighting, here. Fighting just makes it easier to lump me into a stereotype and disregard me. So you just accept it.
Honestly that stuff isn't the worst of it. The worst part is that it was so scary to be hit by a car. If it's happened to you, you know what I mean. It's confusing, you're like hey look forward LOOK WHY AREN'T YOU LOOKING and then the car is so heavy and fast even though they're braking, and it doesn't even hurt yet but you know something broke, and then you're way too close to the driver looking up from the street gesturing back up, back up off my foot!
And then she doesn't even get out of her car because I don't know, it was a scary experience for her? I'm a scary injured person? I didn't want to meet you either!
That's the messed up part, that I had to be so fucking scared and hurt by someone who is supposed to have more responsibility than they did, and who is presumably still driving because the system here sees it as my bad move. And my wife had to be so scared by this person, too! There are no consequences for that driver's inability to drive safely.
That's why drivers suck. If you think you're a good driver, please be even more careful. Pedestrians are softer than you think, and my life, your life, all of our lives are so fragile. Heaven forbid you kill someone.
If you think you're a bad driver, stop driving until you learn to drive better and have enough practice that you aren't going to ruin any lives. If that's too much for you, or you don't think you deserve the inconvenience, just fuck off, you piece of shit.
posted by Ice Cream Socialist at 7:41 PM on December 6, 2023 [20 favorites]
So I always gravitated toward city life, making the metaphorical trek back from the suburbs where I grew up, to places with public transportation and pedestrian convenience.
Now I live in Japan, which is actually a public commuter's dream in a lot of ways, inasmuch as the trains and buses go pretty much everywhere. A person can actually live in many suburbs without needing to drive.
On the other hand, the driving culture here is a pedestrian's nightmare. Most places don't have actual sidewalks, just a line painted on the roadside indicating that pedestrians should be safe if they walk in the gutter. People throw on their hazard lights before doing whatever they want with their cars, including driving right up to a pedestrian and waiting for you to walk around them.
Some of the shithousery is just nonsense, like the law that tells drivers to flash their high-beams if they see pedestrians on the side of the road at night. For a long time I thought they were just fucking with me! They're still assholes.
One rainy night I was almost home from work when a driver turned right into me while looking left, smashing me to the pavement and not stopping until their front tire was crushing my foot. I'm lucky and resilient, so I got away with a cracked wrist bone, a couple fractured foot bones, and a contusion on my shin that took a year to fade away. I was off work for six weeks until I was fully healed (I work with infants and toddlers, who stand on feet and pull on hands all day long, or I would have been pushed back into the workplace much earlier).
This was a few years ago, and I'm still skittish walking at night, especially in the rain.
The police encouraged me to not file a complaint against the driver, because the intersection is difficult for drivers to navigate, and the court system is difficult for foreigners to navigate. The driver's insurance paid me for my emergency visit and rehabilitation and for my time off work, and for the raincoat and trousers that she ruined with her car.
When I went back to work I was made to apologize for the inconvenience I had caused my coworkers and managers, and for having made them worry about my condition. Eventually the company delayed an overdue promotion for me, telling me explicitly that my six weeks off work were unfair to my students.
There's no point in fighting, here. Fighting just makes it easier to lump me into a stereotype and disregard me. So you just accept it.
Honestly that stuff isn't the worst of it. The worst part is that it was so scary to be hit by a car. If it's happened to you, you know what I mean. It's confusing, you're like hey look forward LOOK WHY AREN'T YOU LOOKING and then the car is so heavy and fast even though they're braking, and it doesn't even hurt yet but you know something broke, and then you're way too close to the driver looking up from the street gesturing back up, back up off my foot!
And then she doesn't even get out of her car because I don't know, it was a scary experience for her? I'm a scary injured person? I didn't want to meet you either!
That's the messed up part, that I had to be so fucking scared and hurt by someone who is supposed to have more responsibility than they did, and who is presumably still driving because the system here sees it as my bad move. And my wife had to be so scared by this person, too! There are no consequences for that driver's inability to drive safely.
That's why drivers suck. If you think you're a good driver, please be even more careful. Pedestrians are softer than you think, and my life, your life, all of our lives are so fragile. Heaven forbid you kill someone.
If you think you're a bad driver, stop driving until you learn to drive better and have enough practice that you aren't going to ruin any lives. If that's too much for you, or you don't think you deserve the inconvenience, just fuck off, you piece of shit.
posted by Ice Cream Socialist at 7:41 PM on December 6, 2023 [20 favorites]
And instead of fines, impound cars.
Very much this. Where I live, police actually impound cars!
Basically it goes like this - speeding over 25kmph is an automatic and mandatory 3 months license suspension - even a magistrate doesn't have the power to reduce this punishment.
Get caught driving on a suspended license or without a license? Car gets impounded. (this is what happened to my friend).
BAC more than 0.10? Impounded
Speeding more than 45kmph? Impounded.
Many people get caught with dynamic speed limits - say a freeway is 100kmph with digital signage. The road network detects congestion or a vehicular accident up ahead with emergency responders by the roadside. The digital signs drop in speed as you get closer to the incident, down to 80kmph, then 60kmph, then 40kmph as you pass the first responders. Some idiots ignore the dynamic speed limits and blow past them at 100kmph and got done in by automated cameras for exceeding the speed limit by 60kmph...
Punishment is by default issued to the license holder associated with the registered vehicle, unless the actual, different driver volunteers to sign a statutory declaration that they were the driver, which has to reasonably visually match the camera records. Basically, your vehicle, your responsibility. Police on patrol have 360 degree camera license plate scanners linked to an online database of cars on the "wanted" list for various offenses.
posted by xdvesper at 9:17 PM on December 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
Very much this. Where I live, police actually impound cars!
Basically it goes like this - speeding over 25kmph is an automatic and mandatory 3 months license suspension - even a magistrate doesn't have the power to reduce this punishment.
Get caught driving on a suspended license or without a license? Car gets impounded. (this is what happened to my friend).
BAC more than 0.10? Impounded
Speeding more than 45kmph? Impounded.
Many people get caught with dynamic speed limits - say a freeway is 100kmph with digital signage. The road network detects congestion or a vehicular accident up ahead with emergency responders by the roadside. The digital signs drop in speed as you get closer to the incident, down to 80kmph, then 60kmph, then 40kmph as you pass the first responders. Some idiots ignore the dynamic speed limits and blow past them at 100kmph and got done in by automated cameras for exceeding the speed limit by 60kmph...
Punishment is by default issued to the license holder associated with the registered vehicle, unless the actual, different driver volunteers to sign a statutory declaration that they were the driver, which has to reasonably visually match the camera records. Basically, your vehicle, your responsibility. Police on patrol have 360 degree camera license plate scanners linked to an online database of cars on the "wanted" list for various offenses.
posted by xdvesper at 9:17 PM on December 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
Sending people to prison very often means sentencing them to rape. At the very least to sexual humiliation and abuse. Sometimes to literal sex slavery, when it comes to V-coding.
There's not much that can swing me in favour of incarceration, now that I understand that.
I do not think most people here would be in favour of explicitly sentencing someone to that. But are comfortable with that being the de facto reality of what they're asking for.
Also people are very aware that it is the de facto reality. They make commonplace jokes about, it's all over media. There's no washing your hands and saying "oh I just meant detention, the other stuff that comes with it, I shouldn't have to factor in".
posted by Audreynachrome at 9:21 PM on December 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
There's not much that can swing me in favour of incarceration, now that I understand that.
I do not think most people here would be in favour of explicitly sentencing someone to that. But are comfortable with that being the de facto reality of what they're asking for.
Also people are very aware that it is the de facto reality. They make commonplace jokes about, it's all over media. There's no washing your hands and saying "oh I just meant detention, the other stuff that comes with it, I shouldn't have to factor in".
posted by Audreynachrome at 9:21 PM on December 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
I am writing a paper right now about rights in prison; I just got done writing about a part where a prisoner got sentenced to extra time for just telling a prison chaplain he was wrong about theology. Modern prison is a system of domination and subordination of brown bodies that has its roots in slavery; it practices solitary confinement and isolation as a punishment and inflicts trauma it knows causes harm without even blinking just to increase “order and discipline”. There is no ethical way to sentence people to prison in today’s America: I am deeply interested in articles about other alternatives. Thank you for posting this.
posted by corb at 2:36 AM on December 7, 2023 [12 favorites]
posted by corb at 2:36 AM on December 7, 2023 [12 favorites]
One thing that always bothers me about driving is that it is not really a right. It is something that the state explicitly licenses you to do. It certifies your ability and judgement in the operation of a dangerous machine.
Probably the reason penalties for driving infractions are so mild is that the state is complicit in the crime.
posted by srboisvert at 3:03 AM on December 7, 2023 [5 favorites]
Probably the reason penalties for driving infractions are so mild is that the state is complicit in the crime.
posted by srboisvert at 3:03 AM on December 7, 2023 [5 favorites]
Mod note: Argumentative derail removed. Please remember the Guidelines and be considerate and respectful when commenting.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 5:13 AM on December 7, 2023
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 5:13 AM on December 7, 2023
Audreynachrome wrote…
Sending people to prison very often means sentencing them to rape. At the very least to sexual humiliation and abuse. Sometimes to literal sex slavery, when it comes to V-coding.
Just to put some numbers behind that the sexual violence rates are 5% for men and 20% for women.
As noted, that’s not a lottery you can enter people into lightly.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 5:18 AM on December 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
Sending people to prison very often means sentencing them to rape. At the very least to sexual humiliation and abuse. Sometimes to literal sex slavery, when it comes to V-coding.
Just to put some numbers behind that the sexual violence rates are 5% for men and 20% for women.
As noted, that’s not a lottery you can enter people into lightly.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 5:18 AM on December 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
Last I heard they're 65%-80% for trans women. Either we decide that trans woman and, for problematic shorthand, "twinks" are excused jail time, or we like, find another way to handle this that doesn't result in fucking over trans women and giving 6'4 neo-Nazis government-issued sex slaves.
I roll a 1d20 occasionally for some games, a 1 sucks but they're not that rare that I would advocate torturing people who roll them.
posted by Audreynachrome at 5:51 AM on December 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
I roll a 1d20 occasionally for some games, a 1 sucks but they're not that rare that I would advocate torturing people who roll them.
posted by Audreynachrome at 5:51 AM on December 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
Killing someone with a motor vehicle, whether intentionally or due to inattentiveness, should be a pretty serious crime. To the extent that we as a society think that people should be sent to jail for committing serious crimes I'm having a hard time seeing why that shouldn't be the case in this kind of situation.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 11:41 AM on December 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 11:41 AM on December 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
To the extent that we as a society think that people should be sent to jail for committing serious crimes
In the Culture series, one somewhat scary extrapolation of how extremely advanced technology gets used is that for criminals, an AI operated drone follows them around and gently prevents them from committing any other crime. Forever.
As our surveillance and control technologies become even more omniscient and omnipotent, I could see this aspect of the Culture series becoming inevitable.
From a purely rational + economic point of view, we'd like to see a driver who killed a pedestrian avoid prison, because they're not earning an income and thus not contributing tax revenue, AND they're also costing huge amounts of money to taxpayers who have to house them in prisons. After they get out of prison, there's a greatly reduced chance they will be gainfully employed and most end up committing crimes again.
In this sci fi scenario, they would instead be prevented from committing that particular crime ever again, say a permanent ban from driving enforced by enhanced surveillance and controls - 24/7 positional tracking (our phones do this already) - electronic payments - surveillance, etc. They'd have their income garnished to pay restitution to the state and to the victim / victim's family over time.
How much restitution? The government considers the value of life to be about $10 million, currently, when considering safety related measures and costs. They wouldn't spend $5 billion on safety measures that are predicted to save just one life, for example, so they need to pick a number.
I feel like this achieves better outcomes than just throwing someone in jail for a few years, even for the victims / victim's family.: knowing that this person will never get behind the wheel of a vehicle again and will be working to pay off the restitution for a long time.
I can't quite tell if this is dystopian or utopian.
posted by xdvesper at 5:28 PM on December 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
In the Culture series, one somewhat scary extrapolation of how extremely advanced technology gets used is that for criminals, an AI operated drone follows them around and gently prevents them from committing any other crime. Forever.
As our surveillance and control technologies become even more omniscient and omnipotent, I could see this aspect of the Culture series becoming inevitable.
From a purely rational + economic point of view, we'd like to see a driver who killed a pedestrian avoid prison, because they're not earning an income and thus not contributing tax revenue, AND they're also costing huge amounts of money to taxpayers who have to house them in prisons. After they get out of prison, there's a greatly reduced chance they will be gainfully employed and most end up committing crimes again.
In this sci fi scenario, they would instead be prevented from committing that particular crime ever again, say a permanent ban from driving enforced by enhanced surveillance and controls - 24/7 positional tracking (our phones do this already) - electronic payments - surveillance, etc. They'd have their income garnished to pay restitution to the state and to the victim / victim's family over time.
How much restitution? The government considers the value of life to be about $10 million, currently, when considering safety related measures and costs. They wouldn't spend $5 billion on safety measures that are predicted to save just one life, for example, so they need to pick a number.
I feel like this achieves better outcomes than just throwing someone in jail for a few years, even for the victims / victim's family.: knowing that this person will never get behind the wheel of a vehicle again and will be working to pay off the restitution for a long time.
I can't quite tell if this is dystopian or utopian.
posted by xdvesper at 5:28 PM on December 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
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Some people need to have their entitlement snuffed like a candle flame.
*I feel some offenses require some kind of punishment to keep the perpetrator away from others, like rape and deliberate murder and battery under hate crimes, but a lot can be dealt with preemptively with therapy, social services, public transportation expansion, and GBI.
posted by mephron at 7:44 AM on December 6, 2023 [22 favorites]