"A blessing offers people a means to increase their trust in God."
December 18, 2023 9:32 AM Subscribe
Pope Francis Allows Priests to Bless Same-Sex Relationships (NYT, WaPo, CNN, BBC, AP, Reuters, Advocate, National Catholic Reporter, Vatican News)
The Vatican's doctrinal office has officially declared it possible for Catholic priests to bless same-sex unions and divorced and remarried couples, under the condition that the blessings do not send mixed messages about the church's teaching on sacramental marriage and do not occur within a liturgical celebration.
While extremely narrow in scope, the Dec. 18 "declaration" from the powerful Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith may serve as the most concrete pastoral shift on the church's stance toward gay couples in the church's centuries' long history.
The Vatican's doctrinal office has officially declared it possible for Catholic priests to bless same-sex unions and divorced and remarried couples, under the condition that the blessings do not send mixed messages about the church's teaching on sacramental marriage and do not occur within a liturgical celebration.
While extremely narrow in scope, the Dec. 18 "declaration" from the powerful Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith may serve as the most concrete pastoral shift on the church's stance toward gay couples in the church's centuries' long history.
Good for him! Pope Francis continues to drag the Church in a humane direction.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:47 AM on December 18, 2023 [20 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:47 AM on December 18, 2023 [20 favorites]
My wife teaches at a very liberal catholic university and at an introduction to the community style dinner 10 years ago with 10 other new faculty I was sat next to a divinity school hire and in an off the cuff comment I said that I thought it was funny that the Catholic church is now becoming the liberal church in the U.S. I could instantly see that he was appalled and he didn't speak to me for the rest of the evening. I hope this trend continues.
posted by srboisvert at 9:49 AM on December 18, 2023 [55 favorites]
posted by srboisvert at 9:49 AM on December 18, 2023 [55 favorites]
under the condition that the blessings do not send mixed messages about the church's teaching on sacramental marriage and do not occur within a liturgical celebration.
So like they bless livestock and steam engines?
posted by pracowity at 9:57 AM on December 18, 2023 [31 favorites]
So like they bless livestock and steam engines?
posted by pracowity at 9:57 AM on December 18, 2023 [31 favorites]
What does this actually mean? It seems like a nice gesture, but isn't it essentially saying, "You are not married. You are 'living in sin.' But we want you to keep coming to church, so we'll provide a blessing that, uh, doesn't actually really mean anything in terms of how we view your relationship but, hey, it's the thought that counts, right?"
posted by asnider at 10:05 AM on December 18, 2023 [18 favorites]
posted by asnider at 10:05 AM on December 18, 2023 [18 favorites]
What are blessings, if not just thoughts?
posted by grumpybear69 at 10:09 AM on December 18, 2023 [24 favorites]
posted by grumpybear69 at 10:09 AM on December 18, 2023 [24 favorites]
What does this actually mean? It seems like a nice gesture, but isn't it essentially saying, "You are not married. You are 'living in sin.' But we want you to keep coming to church, so we'll provide a blessing that, uh, doesn't actually really mean anything in terms of how we view your relationship but, hey, it's the thought that counts, right?"
Correct, but many people will completely misunderstand the news
posted by timdiggerm at 10:12 AM on December 18, 2023 [4 favorites]
Correct, but many people will completely misunderstand the news
posted by timdiggerm at 10:12 AM on December 18, 2023 [4 favorites]
In other news- the bully that has mocked and punched you every day of your life on behalf of their invisible friend says they might do it a bit less often, under some special circumstances.
You should be grateful.
posted by chronkite at 10:20 AM on December 18, 2023 [22 favorites]
You should be grateful.
posted by chronkite at 10:20 AM on December 18, 2023 [22 favorites]
Some of the reporting makes it sound like a new, alternate form of blessing same-sex unions is being proposed. But from Vatican News: "the blessing does not signify approval of the union"
posted by airing nerdy laundry at 10:25 AM on December 18, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by airing nerdy laundry at 10:25 AM on December 18, 2023 [4 favorites]
New Catholic schism just dropped!
posted by a hat out of hell at 10:25 AM on December 18, 2023 [14 favorites]
posted by a hat out of hell at 10:25 AM on December 18, 2023 [14 favorites]
It reads like, "of course we should bless them, since they are living in sin"
Meh.
posted by tiny frying pan at 10:27 AM on December 18, 2023 [4 favorites]
Meh.
posted by tiny frying pan at 10:27 AM on December 18, 2023 [4 favorites]
So like they bless livestock and steam engines?
I would 100% go to that wedding.
posted by PlusDistance at 10:28 AM on December 18, 2023 [48 favorites]
I would 100% go to that wedding.
posted by PlusDistance at 10:28 AM on December 18, 2023 [48 favorites]
Isn't it essentially saying, "You are not married. You are 'living in sin.' But we want you to keep coming to church, so we'll provide a blessing
"But we want you to keep coming to church" is a big deal. Much better than "And we don't want you to come to church anymore." The difference between being able to get a blessing and not being able to get one probably feels, for some LGBT Catholics, like the difference between feeling welcome in their community and feeling unwelcome.
posted by OnceUponATime at 10:28 AM on December 18, 2023 [61 favorites]
"But we want you to keep coming to church" is a big deal. Much better than "And we don't want you to come to church anymore." The difference between being able to get a blessing and not being able to get one probably feels, for some LGBT Catholics, like the difference between feeling welcome in their community and feeling unwelcome.
posted by OnceUponATime at 10:28 AM on December 18, 2023 [61 favorites]
It is slight shift in how the Church views the relationship from my (non-theologian, lapsed but interested Catholic) perspective. It would be far better to remove the notion of any "irregular" marriage as a"sinful relationship" but it recognizes an "irregular" marriage as a relationship that people benefit from and makes it acceptable to offer a blessing that seeks to magnify these effects. Now, in the Church's eye, their intensely problematic "ideal" is still the desired endgame, but it's a move from "this relationship is irredeemable" to "this relationship is imperfect but has merit that can be acknowledged by a priest." It's far from enough, but it's an improvement, especially for people for whom blessings are meaningful (not all practicing Catholics, but certainly some of them).
posted by EvaDestruction at 10:29 AM on December 18, 2023 [24 favorites]
posted by EvaDestruction at 10:29 AM on December 18, 2023 [24 favorites]
This is actually kind of huge IMO and a major thing even for just the divorced and remarried who aren’t able to meet the requirements for annulment of their previous marriages. And it also is a signal going into the upcoming Synod of what the pope is thinking; so that doctrine can maybe formally shift as well.
posted by corb at 10:30 AM on December 18, 2023 [48 favorites]
posted by corb at 10:30 AM on December 18, 2023 [48 favorites]
Am I the only one who has been expecting this since Francis became the pope?
IMO it is a big deal. I'm happy for everyone who benefits from this.
posted by mumimor at 10:31 AM on December 18, 2023 [17 favorites]
IMO it is a big deal. I'm happy for everyone who benefits from this.
posted by mumimor at 10:31 AM on December 18, 2023 [17 favorites]
"Nor can it be performed with any clothing, gestures, or words that are proper to a wedding"
But what if you're one of these gay couples that goes around wearing tuxes all the time?
posted by mittens at 10:31 AM on December 18, 2023 [5 favorites]
But what if you're one of these gay couples that goes around wearing tuxes all the time?
posted by mittens at 10:31 AM on December 18, 2023 [5 favorites]
But we want you to keep coming to church" is a big deal.
Well, yeah, the whole thing RUNS on donations, tax free! Gotta get the behinds in the pews.
posted by tiny frying pan at 10:33 AM on December 18, 2023 [4 favorites]
Well, yeah, the whole thing RUNS on donations, tax free! Gotta get the behinds in the pews.
posted by tiny frying pan at 10:33 AM on December 18, 2023 [4 favorites]
like, the catholic church isn't the only corporation that has realized turning away gay people might have financial consequences
posted by tiny frying pan at 10:34 AM on December 18, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by tiny frying pan at 10:34 AM on December 18, 2023 [8 favorites]
I am not a Catholic but my reading of this article is that, this does not say that priests can organize blessings specifically intended for gay couples. It's saying that priests don't have to interview and determine the spiritual purity of every person who asks for a spontaneous blessing. So this is like, if your are invited to a dinner party and want to say "may God bless all the couples here with harmony and grace" you can do that without specifically saying "except the gay ones."
Maybe they were doing this before, I don't know. Maybe liberal priests will use this as a cover for gay marriage recognition.
posted by muddgirl at 10:36 AM on December 18, 2023 [5 favorites]
Maybe they were doing this before, I don't know. Maybe liberal priests will use this as a cover for gay marriage recognition.
posted by muddgirl at 10:36 AM on December 18, 2023 [5 favorites]
What are blessings, if not just thoughts?
Prayers?
posted by nickmark at 10:38 AM on December 18, 2023 [5 favorites]
Prayers?
posted by nickmark at 10:38 AM on December 18, 2023 [5 favorites]
"Nor can it be performed with any clothing, gestures, or words that are proper to a wedding"
I've always worn pants to Catholic weddings, so they are asking for a bold new direction.
posted by biffa at 10:43 AM on December 18, 2023 [9 favorites]
I've always worn pants to Catholic weddings, so they are asking for a bold new direction.
posted by biffa at 10:43 AM on December 18, 2023 [9 favorites]
Never understood the desire to get married...straight or gay...Just shack up together.
posted by Czjewel at 10:51 AM on December 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Czjewel at 10:51 AM on December 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
Just shack up together
Allow me to introduce you to the American tax and inheritance system.
posted by mittens at 11:02 AM on December 18, 2023 [62 favorites]
Allow me to introduce you to the American tax and inheritance system.
posted by mittens at 11:02 AM on December 18, 2023 [62 favorites]
What does this actually mean? It seems like a nice gesture...
Well, it's pushback against things like the announcement in my parish bulletin a couple of year ago that said, inside a heavy black border, that divorced people can't take communion and really shouldn't expect sacraments.
Francis is trying to carve out a more humane approach to regular people than that held by a lot of the hardline guys. I know a lot of people who are sick and tired of the reactionaries in white collars, who are just leaving the church entirely.
posted by wenestvedt at 11:04 AM on December 18, 2023 [33 favorites]
Well, it's pushback against things like the announcement in my parish bulletin a couple of year ago that said, inside a heavy black border, that divorced people can't take communion and really shouldn't expect sacraments.
Francis is trying to carve out a more humane approach to regular people than that held by a lot of the hardline guys. I know a lot of people who are sick and tired of the reactionaries in white collars, who are just leaving the church entirely.
posted by wenestvedt at 11:04 AM on December 18, 2023 [33 favorites]
Is the modern relationship between gays and the Catholic church outside of the US strong enough to where this will mean anything to them?
posted by Selena777 at 11:05 AM on December 18, 2023
posted by Selena777 at 11:05 AM on December 18, 2023
Holy fuck! This issue is the principal reason I left the church of my upbringing when I was fifteen, a choice my dad mourned until the day he died. Wow. Thanks, Francis.
posted by eirias at 11:07 AM on December 18, 2023 [24 favorites]
posted by eirias at 11:07 AM on December 18, 2023 [24 favorites]
Is the modern relationship between gays and the Catholic church outside of the US strong enough to where this will mean anything to them?
In some parts of the world (e.g., Africa), the R.C. hierarchy is SUUUPER conservative. That's where there is so much pressure to not give women a bigger role, or admit gays are people, or whatever. So it's part of steady pressure from Europe & the U.S. to keep those backward-leaning groups from throwing out the expansions that have been won since, say, Vatican II.
posted by wenestvedt at 11:08 AM on December 18, 2023 [6 favorites]
In some parts of the world (e.g., Africa), the R.C. hierarchy is SUUUPER conservative. That's where there is so much pressure to not give women a bigger role, or admit gays are people, or whatever. So it's part of steady pressure from Europe & the U.S. to keep those backward-leaning groups from throwing out the expansions that have been won since, say, Vatican II.
posted by wenestvedt at 11:08 AM on December 18, 2023 [6 favorites]
my reading of this article is that, this does not say that priests can organize blessings specifically intended for gay couples. It's saying that priests don't have to interview and determine the spiritual purity of every person who asks for a spontaneous blessing
So I went and read the actual document which is always helpful for this kind of stuff; Catholic news is *so* much inside-baseball that it’s sometimes hard to interpret.
Basically they’re saying “look, we can’t do anything about the requirements for liturgical/sacramental recognition, but that’s not the only kind of way we can bless relationships”. The money quote here is IMO “in this regard, Pope Francis urged us not to “lose pastoral charity, which should permeate all our decisions and attitudes” and to avoid being “judges who only deny, reject, and exclude.”
“Spontaneous” here shouldn’t be read IMO necessarily as “random encounter” but as “individualized for the circumstances and the individual”. This is relevant:
So I went and read the actual document which is always helpful for this kind of stuff; Catholic news is *so* much inside-baseball that it’s sometimes hard to interpret.
Basically they’re saying “look, we can’t do anything about the requirements for liturgical/sacramental recognition, but that’s not the only kind of way we can bless relationships”. The money quote here is IMO “in this regard, Pope Francis urged us not to “lose pastoral charity, which should permeate all our decisions and attitudes” and to avoid being “judges who only deny, reject, and exclude.”
“Spontaneous” here shouldn’t be read IMO necessarily as “random encounter” but as “individualized for the circumstances and the individual”. This is relevant:
Indeed, such a ritualization would constitute a serious impoverishment because it would subject a gesture of great value in popular piety to excessive control, depriving ministers of freedom and spontaneity in their pastoral accompaniment of people’s lives.posted by corb at 11:15 AM on December 18, 2023 [27 favorites]
So like they bless livestock and steam engines?
When I read the NYT article this morning, it actually included a snarky line about how they regularly bless people and objects--they mentioned boats, specifically--but by the time I sent it to my partner (we are queer and very much not married), they had removed the line. Someone got mad, I guess.
posted by dizziest at 11:18 AM on December 18, 2023 [6 favorites]
When I read the NYT article this morning, it actually included a snarky line about how they regularly bless people and objects--they mentioned boats, specifically--but by the time I sent it to my partner (we are queer and very much not married), they had removed the line. Someone got mad, I guess.
posted by dizziest at 11:18 AM on December 18, 2023 [6 favorites]
> "look, we can’t do anything about the requirements for liturgical/sacramental recognition"
"Its power seems inescapable. So did the divine right of kings. Any human power can be resisted and changed by human beings."
- Ursula K. Le Guin
You can't change the laws of physics. Religions can change themselves, and they do all the time. When they want to.
posted by AlSweigart at 11:21 AM on December 18, 2023 [12 favorites]
"Its power seems inescapable. So did the divine right of kings. Any human power can be resisted and changed by human beings."
- Ursula K. Le Guin
You can't change the laws of physics. Religions can change themselves, and they do all the time. When they want to.
posted by AlSweigart at 11:21 AM on December 18, 2023 [12 favorites]
So like they bless livestock and steam engines?
I would 100% go to that wedding.
posted by PlusDistanc
I wouldn't. All the jokes about why the steam engine has a cow catcher on the front would turn things in an entirely too ribald direction.
posted by Jane the Brown at 11:22 AM on December 18, 2023 [10 favorites]
I would 100% go to that wedding.
posted by PlusDistanc
I wouldn't. All the jokes about why the steam engine has a cow catcher on the front would turn things in an entirely too ribald direction.
posted by Jane the Brown at 11:22 AM on December 18, 2023 [10 favorites]
>Is the modern relationship between gays and the Catholic church outside of the US strong enough to where this will mean anything to them?
In some parts of the world (e.g., Africa), the R.C. hierarchy is SUUUPER conservative. [...] steady pressure from Europe & the U.S.
Some parts of the hierarchy in the US are also SUUUPER conservative and backward leaning.
But anyway, there are something like a 1.4 billion Catholics in the world. Lots of gay people in a sample size that large.
posted by OnceUponATime at 11:25 AM on December 18, 2023 [11 favorites]
In some parts of the world (e.g., Africa), the R.C. hierarchy is SUUUPER conservative. [...] steady pressure from Europe & the U.S.
Some parts of the hierarchy in the US are also SUUUPER conservative and backward leaning.
But anyway, there are something like a 1.4 billion Catholics in the world. Lots of gay people in a sample size that large.
posted by OnceUponATime at 11:25 AM on December 18, 2023 [11 favorites]
If he keeps this up he's going to need bullet-proof vestaments.
posted by tommasz at 11:34 AM on December 18, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by tommasz at 11:34 AM on December 18, 2023 [6 favorites]
Hopefully they’ll tell the US Supreme Court it’s ok to allow abortions again too? Oh wait, Catholicism is still awful. I should know, I narrowly survived its educational indoctrination system.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 11:34 AM on December 18, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 11:34 AM on December 18, 2023 [4 favorites]
This gesture is intended for Catholics, those still clinging to their faith in the teeth of the gale. It is not designed to mollify outsiders who will naturally think it goes nowhere near enough.
It's for the priest who wants to celebrate the relationship of George and Frank, but who can't because the bishop would find out and he would lose his parish. It's for the woman who grimly goes to church every Sunday but refuses to take communion herself because it has been denied to her son. It's for the adolescent boy whose faith is wavering as he becomes more and more aware of his sexuality and his dreams for the future.
Sure it may be too little, too late, but it is a step that Francis can take. If he could change the system utterly with a single Papal bull, Biden would be able to lock up Trump, and Scientists could go on television and explain the concept of Climate Change and all fossil fuel companies would stop producing fossil fuels because hundreds and thousands of people would rise up and surround their refineries and the police would be part of that crowd letting the workers inside leave, and not letting the new shift go in.
It would be nice if Francis could change the Catholic church completely by simply stretching out his hand, wouldn't it?
posted by Jane the Brown at 11:35 AM on December 18, 2023 [52 favorites]
It's for the priest who wants to celebrate the relationship of George and Frank, but who can't because the bishop would find out and he would lose his parish. It's for the woman who grimly goes to church every Sunday but refuses to take communion herself because it has been denied to her son. It's for the adolescent boy whose faith is wavering as he becomes more and more aware of his sexuality and his dreams for the future.
Sure it may be too little, too late, but it is a step that Francis can take. If he could change the system utterly with a single Papal bull, Biden would be able to lock up Trump, and Scientists could go on television and explain the concept of Climate Change and all fossil fuel companies would stop producing fossil fuels because hundreds and thousands of people would rise up and surround their refineries and the police would be part of that crowd letting the workers inside leave, and not letting the new shift go in.
It would be nice if Francis could change the Catholic church completely by simply stretching out his hand, wouldn't it?
posted by Jane the Brown at 11:35 AM on December 18, 2023 [52 favorites]
But doesn't the article also list examples of the kinds of blessings it is talking about?
posted by muddgirl at 11:36 AM on December 18, 2023
There are “several occasions when people spontaneously ask for a blessing, whether on pilgrimages, at shrines, or even on the street when they meet a priest and these blessings “are meant for everyone; no one is to be excluded from them” (par. 28).Those sound like the exact kind of "spontaneous" as my example.
posted by muddgirl at 11:36 AM on December 18, 2023
Some parts of the hierarchy in the US are also SUUUPER conservative and backward leaning.
And last month, Francis removed the Bishop of Tyler, TX, a hard-line traditionalist whose public statements about Francis verged on heresy (is that the right word here?). It was a clear signal to far-right Catholics that the Church is moving forward without them.
posted by uncleozzy at 11:42 AM on December 18, 2023 [27 favorites]
And last month, Francis removed the Bishop of Tyler, TX, a hard-line traditionalist whose public statements about Francis verged on heresy (is that the right word here?). It was a clear signal to far-right Catholics that the Church is moving forward without them.
posted by uncleozzy at 11:42 AM on December 18, 2023 [27 favorites]
I mean, Henry VIII changed some stuff that the Catholic Church seemed to think was unchangeable, albeit for some not-great reasons.
posted by Halloween Jack at 11:47 AM on December 18, 2023
posted by Halloween Jack at 11:47 AM on December 18, 2023
In Francis's Sept. 25 2023 letter, he wrote that there are “situations” that may not be “morally acceptable” but where a priest can assess, on a case-by-case basis, whether blessings may be given — as long as such blessings are kept separate from the sacrament of marriage. “We cannot be judges who only deny, push back and exclude,” Francis wrote. “As such, pastoral prudence must adequately discern whether there are forms of blessing, requested by one or several people, that do not convey a wrong idea of a matrimony. Because when one seeks a blessing, one is requesting help from God.” (Washington Post Oct. 2023 story; gift link)
Months before that letter, he'd ousted the clergy responsible for the Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith's 2021 statement and appointed Cardinal Víctor Manuel Fernández.
He's having some week: the Vatican's "trial of the century" wrapped on Saturday after 2 and half years and 85 hearings. Cardinal Giovanni Angelo Becciu (the Prefect of the Congregation for the Causes of Saints until 2020, when his resignation was requested) was convicted of several counts of embezzlement and sentenced to 5 and half years in prison. Becciu is the first cardinal to be convicted and sentenced by a Vatican court, and plans to appeal. There were 14 defendants (ten individuals, four companies) facing 49 charges (variously: embezzlement, corruption, extortion, money laundering, forgery, fraud, misappropriation, abuse of office...); trial defendants were sentenced to total of 37 years in prison. From 2013, a few months after taking office: Pope sets up body to reform Vatican’s economic affairs.
posted by Iris Gambol at 11:52 AM on December 18, 2023 [5 favorites]
Months before that letter, he'd ousted the clergy responsible for the Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith's 2021 statement and appointed Cardinal Víctor Manuel Fernández.
He's having some week: the Vatican's "trial of the century" wrapped on Saturday after 2 and half years and 85 hearings. Cardinal Giovanni Angelo Becciu (the Prefect of the Congregation for the Causes of Saints until 2020, when his resignation was requested) was convicted of several counts of embezzlement and sentenced to 5 and half years in prison. Becciu is the first cardinal to be convicted and sentenced by a Vatican court, and plans to appeal. There were 14 defendants (ten individuals, four companies) facing 49 charges (variously: embezzlement, corruption, extortion, money laundering, forgery, fraud, misappropriation, abuse of office...); trial defendants were sentenced to total of 37 years in prison. From 2013, a few months after taking office: Pope sets up body to reform Vatican’s economic affairs.
posted by Iris Gambol at 11:52 AM on December 18, 2023 [5 favorites]
(I want to be clear as a non-Catholic I am making no statements about if this is too far, not far enough, too little too late, an amazing step for the church, or anything on those lines.)
posted by muddgirl at 11:58 AM on December 18, 2023
posted by muddgirl at 11:58 AM on December 18, 2023
In Providence, RI, the often acid-tongued bishop Tobin is out and the new guy seems much more...non-crazy. He likes surfers and the beach and stuff.
https://www.americamagazine.org/faith/2023/05/01/bishop-tobin-henning-rhode-island-245209
https://www.americamagazine.org/faith/2023/05/01/bishop-tobin-henning-rhode-island-245209
As recently as 2017, Rhode Island had been described as the most Catholic state in the nation—though some researchers express doubt about that appellation. But a report published by the Diocese of Providence in 2019 showed a dramatic 40 percent drop in the number of parishioners, falling from 525,000 in 2000 to 321,000 in 2018, mirroring trends throughout much of the Northeast and Midwest.posted by wenestvedt at 12:01 PM on December 18, 2023 [4 favorites]
While the Diocese of Providence flies relatively under the radar, it gained national attention in recent years in part because of the outspokenness of Bishop Tobin, whose social conservatism and on-again, off-again relationship with Twitter often generated controversy.
Appointed bishop in 2005, Bishop Tobin was described by The Associated Press in 2008 as a member of a “new generation of strictly orthodox Catholic prelates” and noted back then how he used his newspaper column to condemn political leaders of various ideologies over their support for abortion, same-sex marriage or harsh immigration policies.
Any time any religion opens another door out of lunacy and into normalcy I'm all for it.
I spoke last night about one of my cousins. Terry is gay. He's never been able to break the hold religion laid on him; seems each person finds their way, or doesn't. I think his life a tragedy, and I don't think that's too heavy a word.
Terry always had to get needs met. And then he felt shame, and looked to religion as a balm, a way out of the shame. Terry isn't dumb, got to be that he knows the shame comes from the religion. But he's never been able to break the lock.
He's in his 80s. I hope that peace has landed on him. He's a fine man, always ready to help anyone who needs help.
I moved to Houston in 1977. An amazing gay community, huge and festive. I saw friends living happily, often wished a clock could move backwards, or Terry moved in space/time. But there was/is a huge, festive gay community in many places. Never inside Terry's heart.
I thank god for Mark Twain, all of his work but the stuff at the end of his life helped save mine. Marcus Aurelius also. They helped to open a door for me.
This is a small move. A stupidly small move. Also, it's huge. Maybe it'll help open a door for the next person.
posted by dancestoblue at 12:47 PM on December 18, 2023 [20 favorites]
I spoke last night about one of my cousins. Terry is gay. He's never been able to break the hold religion laid on him; seems each person finds their way, or doesn't. I think his life a tragedy, and I don't think that's too heavy a word.
Terry always had to get needs met. And then he felt shame, and looked to religion as a balm, a way out of the shame. Terry isn't dumb, got to be that he knows the shame comes from the religion. But he's never been able to break the lock.
He's in his 80s. I hope that peace has landed on him. He's a fine man, always ready to help anyone who needs help.
I moved to Houston in 1977. An amazing gay community, huge and festive. I saw friends living happily, often wished a clock could move backwards, or Terry moved in space/time. But there was/is a huge, festive gay community in many places. Never inside Terry's heart.
I thank god for Mark Twain, all of his work but the stuff at the end of his life helped save mine. Marcus Aurelius also. They helped to open a door for me.
This is a small move. A stupidly small move. Also, it's huge. Maybe it'll help open a door for the next person.
posted by dancestoblue at 12:47 PM on December 18, 2023 [20 favorites]
Any US towns named Avignon or D'avignon?
posted by Slackermagee at 12:49 PM on December 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Slackermagee at 12:49 PM on December 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
I sometimes think that conservative Catholics I know are surprised that Francis is Pope, and non-Catholics are surprised that he is Catholic.
It is ok to celebrate a small step in the right direction, especially from an organisation as globally as important as the Vatican. It is also ok to point out that it is not going far enough.
In related news, the Church of England celebrated its first same sex blessings, which look pretty blessing-y to me, even as I would prefer them to just marry folks.
posted by plonkee at 12:52 PM on December 18, 2023 [11 favorites]
It is ok to celebrate a small step in the right direction, especially from an organisation as globally as important as the Vatican. It is also ok to point out that it is not going far enough.
In related news, the Church of England celebrated its first same sex blessings, which look pretty blessing-y to me, even as I would prefer them to just marry folks.
posted by plonkee at 12:52 PM on December 18, 2023 [11 favorites]
I said that I thought it was funny that the Catholic church is now becoming the liberal church in the U.S
Not really: List of Christian denominations affirming LGBT people
posted by hydropsyche at 12:56 PM on December 18, 2023 [7 favorites]
Not really: List of Christian denominations affirming LGBT people
posted by hydropsyche at 12:56 PM on December 18, 2023 [7 favorites]
> "Never understood the desire to get married...straight or gay...Just shack up together."
I mean, as actual practical matters I would have immediately lost my health insurance and also been unable to emigrate with my spouse, plus there are theoretical issues that could at some point come up including parental rights, hospital visitation rights, prison visitation rights, inheritance rights, pension benefit concerns, and next-of-kin status for emergency medical decisions.
So, I'd be forcibly separated from my spouse by thousands of miles and either medically bankrupt, seriously ill, or both, and neither of us would have any recourse at the worst possible time should any number of serious problems occur. If that helps clear things up as to why.
posted by kyrademon at 1:10 PM on December 18, 2023 [28 favorites]
I mean, as actual practical matters I would have immediately lost my health insurance and also been unable to emigrate with my spouse, plus there are theoretical issues that could at some point come up including parental rights, hospital visitation rights, prison visitation rights, inheritance rights, pension benefit concerns, and next-of-kin status for emergency medical decisions.
So, I'd be forcibly separated from my spouse by thousands of miles and either medically bankrupt, seriously ill, or both, and neither of us would have any recourse at the worst possible time should any number of serious problems occur. If that helps clear things up as to why.
posted by kyrademon at 1:10 PM on December 18, 2023 [28 favorites]
"But we want you to keep coming to church" is a big deal.
In Francis's Sept. 25 2023 letter, he wrote that there are “situations” that may not be “morally acceptable”...
So, bless you, put your nickle in the basket, but you're still going to hell for shakin' sheets with the wrong partner.
I guess it's better than nuthin'.
posted by BlueHorse at 1:14 PM on December 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
In Francis's Sept. 25 2023 letter, he wrote that there are “situations” that may not be “morally acceptable”...
So, bless you, put your nickle in the basket, but you're still going to hell for shakin' sheets with the wrong partner.
I guess it's better than nuthin'.
posted by BlueHorse at 1:14 PM on December 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
Well, it's pushback against things like the announcement in my parish bulletin a couple of year ago that said, inside a heavy black border, that divorced people can't take communion and really shouldn't expect sacraments.
This is exactly what was told to some Irish Catholic friends of ours, both divorced. They wouldn't let them get married in church either. So, they became Anglicans.
A few years later the husband died. The funeral was held in their new church. When it came to communion, nobody got up. There wasn't a Protestant in the place.
There followed a full-on wake, in the Anglican church hall, full of completely bladdered Irish Catholics.
God would have approved.
posted by Cardinal Fang at 1:25 PM on December 18, 2023 [15 favorites]
This is exactly what was told to some Irish Catholic friends of ours, both divorced. They wouldn't let them get married in church either. So, they became Anglicans.
A few years later the husband died. The funeral was held in their new church. When it came to communion, nobody got up. There wasn't a Protestant in the place.
There followed a full-on wake, in the Anglican church hall, full of completely bladdered Irish Catholics.
God would have approved.
posted by Cardinal Fang at 1:25 PM on December 18, 2023 [15 favorites]
Sarah Palin once said that she didn't think this Pope 'got' Christianity.
He's not going to get many better endorsements than that!
posted by Cardinal Fang at 1:29 PM on December 18, 2023 [10 favorites]
He's not going to get many better endorsements than that!
posted by Cardinal Fang at 1:29 PM on December 18, 2023 [10 favorites]
But doesn't the article also list examples of the kinds of blessings it is talking about? There are “several occasions when people spontaneously ask for a blessing, whether on pilgrimages, at shrines, or even on the street when they meet a priest and these blessings “are meant for everyone; no one is to be excluded from them” (par. 28).
Those sound like the exact kind of "spontaneous" as my example.
So (at least from my perspective), I've had a lot more appreciation for how some of these are written since going to law school; they're kind of written in a way very similar to how legal arguments are written, and probably for people with very similar minds.
So it reads to me like:
Contextually, the conservative American Catholics are big, big mad that this is happening during the ongoing Synod on Synodality, next session in 2024. Here's the synthesis report from the first session; conservatives accuse Pope Francis of having stacked it because he allowed representatives to include laypeople if parishes chose to send them. One relevant portion is here:
Those sound like the exact kind of "spontaneous" as my example.
So (at least from my perspective), I've had a lot more appreciation for how some of these are written since going to law school; they're kind of written in a way very similar to how legal arguments are written, and probably for people with very similar minds.
So it reads to me like:
Here is why we are writing this: [There was some debate and the Pope asked us to move further]There's some baller, baller stuff in here IMHO. I'm also fond of "The Church, moreover, must shy away from resting its pastoral praxis on the fixed nature of certain doctrinal or disciplinary schemes, especially when they lead to “a narcissistic and authoritarian elitism, whereby instead of evangelizing, one analyzes and classifies others, and instead of opening the door to grace, one exhausts his or her energies in inspecting and verifying.”
Here are the elements of the formal law that we think is firm at the moment (par 9-12)"The Liturgical Meaning Of The Rite of Blessing" [Catholic church can't give liturgical blessings to people not in a state to receive them]
However, here is some other formal law evidence that blessings go beyond liturgical blessings (par 14-19)[Bible evidence of non liturgical blessings]
Here is a long theological argument as to why you, Catholic and priest reading this, should agree with us about blessings (para 20-30) [This includes some examples of the more 'surprise' blessings, but is being used as an argument why even the doubters should agree, not necessarily as a limiting factor as to the type of blessings]
Okay now here's how you actually do it.
Contextually, the conservative American Catholics are big, big mad that this is happening during the ongoing Synod on Synodality, next session in 2024. Here's the synthesis report from the first session; conservatives accuse Pope Francis of having stacked it because he allowed representatives to include laypeople if parishes chose to send them. One relevant portion is here:
In different ways, people who feel marginalized or excluded from the Church because of their marriage status, identity or sexuality also ask to be heard and accompanied. There was a deep sense of love, mercy and compassion felt in the Assembly for those who are or feel hurt or neglected by the Church, who want a place to call "home" where they can feel safe, be heard and respected, without fear of feeling judged. Listening is a prerequisite for walking together in search of God's will.posted by corb at 1:36 PM on December 18, 2023 [29 favorites]
tl;dr I'm really excited and I want the American Catholics who think Pope Francis is the antichrist to just schism and leave already.
posted by corb at 1:37 PM on December 18, 2023 [19 favorites]
posted by corb at 1:37 PM on December 18, 2023 [19 favorites]
The Church, moreover, must shy away from resting its pastoral praxis on the fixed nature of certain doctrinal or disciplinary schemes, especially when they lead to a narcissistic and authoritarian elitism, whereby instead of evangelizing, one analyzes and classifies others, and instead of opening the door to grace, one exhausts his or her energies in inspecting and verifying.
Hear, hear.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 2:01 PM on December 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
Hear, hear.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 2:01 PM on December 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
My 86-year-old father, a lapsed Catholic and atheist, in a tearful voice: "I literally thought I would not live to see this."
posted by virago at 2:20 PM on December 18, 2023 [32 favorites]
posted by virago at 2:20 PM on December 18, 2023 [32 favorites]
As others have noted, this is a tiny baby step but one with a purpose, an indication of direction. Right heading, low velocity, and a subtle way of saying "there will be no walking backwards under this management."
And it will cause the hardliners who have been gnashing their teeth since Vatican II to lose their minds.
Francis would very much like the church to be approachable by more people, and to remain relevant. Others feel that (their interpretation of) the church is all that is and has ever been relevant, and it is up to others to concede that on bended knee.
posted by delfin at 2:27 PM on December 18, 2023 [8 favorites]
And it will cause the hardliners who have been gnashing their teeth since Vatican II to lose their minds.
Francis would very much like the church to be approachable by more people, and to remain relevant. Others feel that (their interpretation of) the church is all that is and has ever been relevant, and it is up to others to concede that on bended knee.
posted by delfin at 2:27 PM on December 18, 2023 [8 favorites]
the blessing does not signify approval of the unionI get that they aren’t ready to let priests perform formal gay weddings, but I don’t think I am parsing too terribly hard when I wonder what possible definition of “blessing” can carry no connotation of approval. It’s specifically asking God to show favor to whatever thing is being blessed.
posted by gelfin at 2:33 PM on December 18, 2023 [4 favorites]
a narcissistic and authoritarian elitism... describes my experience with the church perfectly.
This thing smacks of "we still think you're an abomination but we're going to try to be one quantum nicer about it".
posted by june_dodecahedron at 2:36 PM on December 18, 2023
“Will a day come when the race will detect the funniness of these juvenilities and laugh at them—and by laughing at them destroy them? For your race, in its poverty, has unquestionably one really effective weapon—laughter. Power, Money, Persuasion, Supplication, Persecution--these can lift at a colossal humbug,—push it a little— crowd it a little—weaken it a little, century by century: but only Laughter can blow it to rags and atoms at a blast. Against the assault of Laughter nothing can stand.
Samuel Clemons
aka Mark Twain
― The Mysterious Stranger
posted by dancestoblue at 2:57 PM on December 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
Samuel Clemons
aka Mark Twain
― The Mysterious Stranger
posted by dancestoblue at 2:57 PM on December 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
Thought I'd drop these in here since I came across them.
America Magazine, Fr. James Martin (Jesuit, liberal): Pope Francis’ same-sex blessings declaration is a major step forward for LGBTQ Catholics
America Magazine, Fr. James Martin (Jesuit, liberal): Pope Francis’ same-sex blessings declaration is a major step forward for LGBTQ Catholics
Second, you may hear from some quarters that “nothing has changed.” It reminds me of my church history professor, John W. O’Malley, S.J., who said that when church teaching changes, the most common introduction is “As the church has always taught...”National Catholic Reporter (liberal): In major doctrinal shift, Vatican officially OKs Catholic blessings for gay couples
Here, Father O’Malley’s insight is made manifest in a slightly different way. Some Catholics oppose any steps toward greater inclusion for L.G.B.T.Q. people in the life of the church. We saw some of this during the Synod on Synodality, where I was a voting member, with significant pushback from certain quarters on even using the term L.G.B.T.Q. So, for some, this declaration (even though it specifies that the blessings must not in any way seem like a marriage rite) will be threatening, and the temptation will therefore be to say, “Nothing has changed.”
But a great deal has in fact changed. Before this document was issued, there was no permission for bishops, priests and deacons to bless couples in same-sex unions in any setting. This document establishes, with some limitations, that they can.
Under the limited conditions the new guidelines outline, such blessings must be personally administered by the minister without any prepared texts or rituals developed by a national bishops' conference.posted by kensington314 at 3:16 PM on December 18, 2023 [6 favorites]
For those wondering about other religions, NYT on the Methodists: With a Deadline Looming, the United Methodist Church Breaks Up
A quarter of the denomination’s churches have left, as the faith divides over L.G.B.T.Q. policies.
Officially, the United Methodist Church still forbids same-sex marriage and does not allow “self-avowed, practicing” gay people to serve as ministers. But in recent years, some leaders began defying official restrictions on the practices, and the church now has a number of openly gay clergy and two gay bishops.
In the meantime, conservatives launched a rival denomination, the Global Methodist Church, which says it will not ordain or marry gay people. As of this fall, the new denomination said that more than 3,000 congregations had joined it.
posted by jenfullmoon at 3:38 PM on December 18, 2023 [4 favorites]
A quarter of the denomination’s churches have left, as the faith divides over L.G.B.T.Q. policies.
Officially, the United Methodist Church still forbids same-sex marriage and does not allow “self-avowed, practicing” gay people to serve as ministers. But in recent years, some leaders began defying official restrictions on the practices, and the church now has a number of openly gay clergy and two gay bishops.
In the meantime, conservatives launched a rival denomination, the Global Methodist Church, which says it will not ordain or marry gay people. As of this fall, the new denomination said that more than 3,000 congregations had joined it.
posted by jenfullmoon at 3:38 PM on December 18, 2023 [4 favorites]
It's mind boggling how firmly people hold on to their hatred, and for what?
posted by signal at 3:40 PM on December 18, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by signal at 3:40 PM on December 18, 2023 [6 favorites]
Sunday was Jorge Mario Bergoglio's 86th birthday. It's his tenth year as Pope Francis. He became a priest after a serious illness, earned a degree in philosophy, and taught literature and psychology at the high school level. (Before all that, he trained as a chemist, worked as a janitor, and was a bouncer at a nightclub.)
He's the first pope in over a hundred years not to live in the papal apartments in the Apostolic Palace; he lives in a 3-room suite in the guesthouse (built in 1996) adjacent to St. Peter's: "Pope Francis has been there since the beginning of the conclave that elected him March 13 [2013], taking his meals in the common dining room downstairs and celebrating a 7 a.m. Mass with Vatican employees in the main chapel of the residence." From the start, he's broken with tradition in sometimes-startling ways (receiving the sacrament of confession, in public; ministering to people living on the street; undermining clerical outfitters; performing the Holy Thursday "washing of the feet" ritual on non-Catholics (and non-men); pro-decriminalization of homosexuality, worldwide; turning the 19th century Palazzo Migliori into "a palace for the poor;" placing more women in the Vatican hierarchy; changing the Catechism of the Catholic Church on the death penalty).
CNN, Dec. 2013: In "Evangelii Gaudium" (The Joy of the Gospel), officially known as an "apostolic exhortation," Francis calls for church reforms, urges Catholics to be more bold and joyful, and castigates elements of modern capitalism. "I prefer a Church which is bruised, hurting and dirty because it has been out on the streets," the Pope said, "rather than a Church which is unhealthy from being confined and from clinging to its own security."
He's such a weird, weird choice for pope. "How a decade of Pope Francis has changed the Catholic church," The New Yorker, March 13, 2023 (archived)
posted by Iris Gambol at 4:25 PM on December 18, 2023 [25 favorites]
He's the first pope in over a hundred years not to live in the papal apartments in the Apostolic Palace; he lives in a 3-room suite in the guesthouse (built in 1996) adjacent to St. Peter's: "Pope Francis has been there since the beginning of the conclave that elected him March 13 [2013], taking his meals in the common dining room downstairs and celebrating a 7 a.m. Mass with Vatican employees in the main chapel of the residence." From the start, he's broken with tradition in sometimes-startling ways (receiving the sacrament of confession, in public; ministering to people living on the street; undermining clerical outfitters; performing the Holy Thursday "washing of the feet" ritual on non-Catholics (and non-men); pro-decriminalization of homosexuality, worldwide; turning the 19th century Palazzo Migliori into "a palace for the poor;" placing more women in the Vatican hierarchy; changing the Catechism of the Catholic Church on the death penalty).
CNN, Dec. 2013: In "Evangelii Gaudium" (The Joy of the Gospel), officially known as an "apostolic exhortation," Francis calls for church reforms, urges Catholics to be more bold and joyful, and castigates elements of modern capitalism. "I prefer a Church which is bruised, hurting and dirty because it has been out on the streets," the Pope said, "rather than a Church which is unhealthy from being confined and from clinging to its own security."
He's such a weird, weird choice for pope. "How a decade of Pope Francis has changed the Catholic church," The New Yorker, March 13, 2023 (archived)
posted by Iris Gambol at 4:25 PM on December 18, 2023 [25 favorites]
I mean, Henry VIII changed some stuff that the Catholic Church seemed to think was unchangeable, albeit for some not-great reasons.
He didn't change the church itself, he left and started his own church when the Pope wouldn't let him do that stuff.
I'm really, really, really saddened by the anti-Catholic and anti-religious joking in here. Like Jane The Brown says above - Francis didn't do this for all y'all, he did it for your gay-but-still-Catholic neighbor who now feels like a little bit less of an outsider in the faith he's long been a member of. So, okay, maybe you don't understand why that neighbor would want to still be Catholic if the church doesn't accept him as a gay man - so the fuck what, it's his business and his choice. And now your neighbor is happier.
Why can't that be something you can be happy for HIM about?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:32 PM on December 18, 2023 [38 favorites]
He didn't change the church itself, he left and started his own church when the Pope wouldn't let him do that stuff.
I'm really, really, really saddened by the anti-Catholic and anti-religious joking in here. Like Jane The Brown says above - Francis didn't do this for all y'all, he did it for your gay-but-still-Catholic neighbor who now feels like a little bit less of an outsider in the faith he's long been a member of. So, okay, maybe you don't understand why that neighbor would want to still be Catholic if the church doesn't accept him as a gay man - so the fuck what, it's his business and his choice. And now your neighbor is happier.
Why can't that be something you can be happy for HIM about?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:32 PM on December 18, 2023 [38 favorites]
My in-laws' Methodist church is one of the schism-ers. Father-in-law was grumbling about the Keep Christ in Christmas sign he usually puts out on his lawn, because that says United MC on it and "they took that away from us. We should be the ones keeping the name, because we're the ones still teaching the Bible."
He's pretty level-headed about most issues; I'm as lefty as they get, he's conservative, but we can talk about issues of the day and throw observations and thoughts at each other without screaming, and if I make a good point, he'll acknowledge it. I asked him, realistically speaking, what difference do gay clergy really make that justifies a complete split? Their pastor isn't gay, as far as anyone knows. The average age of attendees there is probably pushing 70. It's a hole-in-the-wall small-town church that's usually focused more on community activities and helping each other than fire and brimstone. The topic doesn't come up much at all in sermons, much less often.
And he indicated that he understood that, and agreed to some degree. But... "The Bible SAYS that certain things are wrong, and it hasn't changed..."
It's not always hatred. Sometimes it's just so, so, so much wasted effort tilting at windmills.
posted by delfin at 5:15 PM on December 18, 2023 [5 favorites]
He's pretty level-headed about most issues; I'm as lefty as they get, he's conservative, but we can talk about issues of the day and throw observations and thoughts at each other without screaming, and if I make a good point, he'll acknowledge it. I asked him, realistically speaking, what difference do gay clergy really make that justifies a complete split? Their pastor isn't gay, as far as anyone knows. The average age of attendees there is probably pushing 70. It's a hole-in-the-wall small-town church that's usually focused more on community activities and helping each other than fire and brimstone. The topic doesn't come up much at all in sermons, much less often.
And he indicated that he understood that, and agreed to some degree. But... "The Bible SAYS that certain things are wrong, and it hasn't changed..."
It's not always hatred. Sometimes it's just so, so, so much wasted effort tilting at windmills.
posted by delfin at 5:15 PM on December 18, 2023 [5 favorites]
the ongoing Synod on Synodality
I have no idea what this is, so I choose to believe that it was invented in the 1920s by surrealists.
posted by clawsoon at 5:21 PM on December 18, 2023 [7 favorites]
I have no idea what this is, so I choose to believe that it was invented in the 1920s by surrealists.
posted by clawsoon at 5:21 PM on December 18, 2023 [7 favorites]
87! Apologies. Yesterday was his 87th birthday.
posted by Iris Gambol at 5:31 PM on December 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Iris Gambol at 5:31 PM on December 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
And he indicated that he understood that, and agreed to some degree. But... "The Bible SAYS that certain things are wrong, and it hasn't changed..."
The bible says a lot of things, and, for instance, much more by an order of magnitude about abandoning all your material posessions and loving everybody, especially the weak and downtrodden, than it does about homosexuality, yet it's the two or three mentions in the old testament about gay love that are the unwavering word of god, and all the other parts can be blipped over?
posted by signal at 5:33 PM on December 18, 2023 [15 favorites]
The bible says a lot of things, and, for instance, much more by an order of magnitude about abandoning all your material posessions and loving everybody, especially the weak and downtrodden, than it does about homosexuality, yet it's the two or three mentions in the old testament about gay love that are the unwavering word of god, and all the other parts can be blipped over?
posted by signal at 5:33 PM on December 18, 2023 [15 favorites]
Why can't that be something you can be happy for HIM about?
Because perfect is the enemy of good, of course. It’s the MeFi way.
posted by Thorzdad at 7:39 PM on December 18, 2023 [8 favorites]
Because perfect is the enemy of good, of course. It’s the MeFi way.
posted by Thorzdad at 7:39 PM on December 18, 2023 [8 favorites]
I'm really, really, really saddened by the anti-Catholic and anti-religious joking in here.
As a Catholic I can fully understand it. A lot of people have not had a happy time at the hands of the Catholic Church.
posted by Cardinal Fang at 1:41 AM on December 19, 2023 [14 favorites]
As a Catholic I can fully understand it. A lot of people have not had a happy time at the hands of the Catholic Church.
posted by Cardinal Fang at 1:41 AM on December 19, 2023 [14 favorites]
And he indicated that he understood that, and agreed to some degree. But... "The Bible SAYS that certain things are wrong, and it hasn't changed..."
I am not a scholar of Ancient Greek, and I assume he isn't either, but I am given it on good authority by people who are that the often-cited 1 Corinthians 6:9 isn't about homosexuality, but specifically about pederasty (the exploitative teacher-pupil relationship in Ancient Greece).
Similarly, Leviticus 18:20 is from a time without contraception and with a strong traditional sense of family, where if a man wanted to sleep around, they were likely to do it with men, as they wouldn't get anyone pregnant or render them unmarriageable. It's a message to heterosexual men saying 'Don't shag people for your own gratification.'
(You really don't want to get into these arguments with conservative Christians, incidentally.)
posted by Cardinal Fang at 1:57 AM on December 19, 2023 [6 favorites]
I am not a scholar of Ancient Greek, and I assume he isn't either, but I am given it on good authority by people who are that the often-cited 1 Corinthians 6:9 isn't about homosexuality, but specifically about pederasty (the exploitative teacher-pupil relationship in Ancient Greece).
Similarly, Leviticus 18:20 is from a time without contraception and with a strong traditional sense of family, where if a man wanted to sleep around, they were likely to do it with men, as they wouldn't get anyone pregnant or render them unmarriageable. It's a message to heterosexual men saying 'Don't shag people for your own gratification.'
(You really don't want to get into these arguments with conservative Christians, incidentally.)
posted by Cardinal Fang at 1:57 AM on December 19, 2023 [6 favorites]
It's such a small step that I now understand why it took the Church 350 years to realize Galileo deserved an apology. I hope that it takes them less time to come to point where they apologize to all LGBT Catholics.
posted by DreamerFi at 3:03 AM on December 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by DreamerFi at 3:03 AM on December 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
He's such a weird, weird choice for pope.
I hope he remains healthy enough to fill the college of cardinals with others who would elect someone in the same tradition of concern for the real lives of ordinary people, particularly the poor.
posted by plonkee at 6:03 AM on December 19, 2023 [11 favorites]
I hope he remains healthy enough to fill the college of cardinals with others who would elect someone in the same tradition of concern for the real lives of ordinary people, particularly the poor.
posted by plonkee at 6:03 AM on December 19, 2023 [11 favorites]
A lot of people have not had a happy time at the hands of the Catholic Church.
Oh, I know. But I'm not getting that sense off all the shit-talking in here, a good deal of it is coming across more like "magical-sky-daddy" general religious shit-talking, you know?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:23 AM on December 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
Oh, I know. But I'm not getting that sense off all the shit-talking in here, a good deal of it is coming across more like "magical-sky-daddy" general religious shit-talking, you know?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:23 AM on December 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
I was pleased that my local paper is reporting that the local archdiocese is supportive of this. I'm not Catholic and don't have any clear sense of how the local church leadership sits on the liberal/conservative spectrum, so that was a nice thing to read. Hopefully the baby steps towards acceptance continue.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:51 AM on December 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Dip Flash at 6:51 AM on December 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
Seems WAY less "religious shit talking" than some threads. I see no direct mockery of anyone's beliefs here. If there's a specific comment you find offensive, please let the mods know.
posted by tiny frying pan at 7:03 AM on December 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by tiny frying pan at 7:03 AM on December 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
Oh, I know. But I'm not getting that sense off all the shit-talking in here, a good deal of it is coming across more like "magical-sky-daddy" general religious shit-talking, you know?
A lot of the unhealthy power that religions have gained has been through the mechanism of saying that it is offensive/blasphemous/hurtful to ridicule their ridiculous ideas.
I think that successful religions, especially successful exclusionary religions, have all had ridiculous ideas because ridiculous ideas have helped them become more powerful. They help the religion quickly identify, punish, isolate, scapegoat and reject people who won't fall in line. Are you willing to believe whatever the priest says? You're in, you're a good person. Do you laugh when the priest says something ridiculous? You're out, you're a bad person, you're disrespectful toward people's sincerely-held beliefs.
And this played a part in why the church was able to abuse so many children. If children are taught to accept whatever the priest says (and to fear the consequences if they don't), they're more likely to be victimized, and to be punished if they talk about their victimization.
The same thing extends to homosexuality. If you know someone who's a decent person, but the priest makes the ridiculous claim that they're an abomination and a horrible sinner, do you believe the priest's ridiculous claims or your own lying eyes?
So I say bring on the sky-daddy shit-talking.
posted by clawsoon at 7:34 AM on December 19, 2023 [8 favorites]
A lot of the unhealthy power that religions have gained has been through the mechanism of saying that it is offensive/blasphemous/hurtful to ridicule their ridiculous ideas.
I think that successful religions, especially successful exclusionary religions, have all had ridiculous ideas because ridiculous ideas have helped them become more powerful. They help the religion quickly identify, punish, isolate, scapegoat and reject people who won't fall in line. Are you willing to believe whatever the priest says? You're in, you're a good person. Do you laugh when the priest says something ridiculous? You're out, you're a bad person, you're disrespectful toward people's sincerely-held beliefs.
And this played a part in why the church was able to abuse so many children. If children are taught to accept whatever the priest says (and to fear the consequences if they don't), they're more likely to be victimized, and to be punished if they talk about their victimization.
The same thing extends to homosexuality. If you know someone who's a decent person, but the priest makes the ridiculous claim that they're an abomination and a horrible sinner, do you believe the priest's ridiculous claims or your own lying eyes?
So I say bring on the sky-daddy shit-talking.
posted by clawsoon at 7:34 AM on December 19, 2023 [8 favorites]
It's a message to heterosexual men saying 'Don't shag people for your own gratification.'
I make no claims about its theological cromulence, but "don't misgender people you're fucking" is my favourite reading of 18:22.
posted by polytope subirb enby-of-piano-dice at 7:42 AM on December 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
I make no claims about its theological cromulence, but "don't misgender people you're fucking" is my favourite reading of 18:22.
posted by polytope subirb enby-of-piano-dice at 7:42 AM on December 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
It's such a small step that I now understand why it took the Church 350 years to realize Galileo deserved an apology. I hope that it takes them less time to come to point where they apologize to all LGBT Catholics.
when i was younger and devout and tried to be the good catholic, a priest i admired had said that the church strives to be on the right side of moral questions, and while it might not always get the answer correct at first, it eventually would, out of breath and exhausted if it needed to be.
he was a jesuit, and this combined with romanticized depictions (including mary doria russell's novel the sparrow) briefly made me consider travelling down that path; life (or, if one still believes, god) had other plans.
i have no doubt that the church will eventually see the light on queer people. it's nice that the church could bless any partnership i had with either gender now. the comparison of who i am to atomic weapons' ability to annihilate nature, even with francis' breaking bread with others like me (he has not, as far as i know, rescinded that vatican statement), well, that still stings. i don't expect to get an apology in life. in death, at best i'm destined for purgatory, and at worst, hell.
and since hell is just the absence of god, i don't see how that's appreciably different from existence now. but i'm glad the pope is trying this stuff, even if i've been watching nice, kind catholics from my youth speak of how much they detest him, not for theological reasons but because their minds have been poisoned and corrupted by the conservative right and their noisy hate machine.
posted by i used to be someone else at 7:50 AM on December 19, 2023 [11 favorites]
when i was younger and devout and tried to be the good catholic, a priest i admired had said that the church strives to be on the right side of moral questions, and while it might not always get the answer correct at first, it eventually would, out of breath and exhausted if it needed to be.
he was a jesuit, and this combined with romanticized depictions (including mary doria russell's novel the sparrow) briefly made me consider travelling down that path; life (or, if one still believes, god) had other plans.
i have no doubt that the church will eventually see the light on queer people. it's nice that the church could bless any partnership i had with either gender now. the comparison of who i am to atomic weapons' ability to annihilate nature, even with francis' breaking bread with others like me (he has not, as far as i know, rescinded that vatican statement), well, that still stings. i don't expect to get an apology in life. in death, at best i'm destined for purgatory, and at worst, hell.
and since hell is just the absence of god, i don't see how that's appreciably different from existence now. but i'm glad the pope is trying this stuff, even if i've been watching nice, kind catholics from my youth speak of how much they detest him, not for theological reasons but because their minds have been poisoned and corrupted by the conservative right and their noisy hate machine.
posted by i used to be someone else at 7:50 AM on December 19, 2023 [11 favorites]
The bible says a lot of things, and, for instance, much more by an order of magnitude about abandoning all your material posessions and loving everybody, especially the weak and downtrodden, than it does about homosexuality, yet it's the two or three mentions in the old testament about gay love that are the unwavering word of god, and all the other parts can be blipped over?
I know that, and you know that, and people who apply critical thinking to it know that. And, frankly, having witnessed his behavior for close to thirty years, I don't think that he _is_ blipping over the rest of it. I think he tries to live his life according to both the Old and New Testaments, if you know what I mean.
The problem is that he was raised from birth and taught in his churches all his life that being gay is one of the Big Sins, and that it is simply not acceptable. Not enough for him to turn into some kind of raving Westboro Baptist crusader, not enough for him to (visibly to me, at least) discriminate against LGBTs in his daily life when they cross his path. But enough that when this Discrimination Roadshow movement came around and asked him to stand up for Good Ol' Traditional Moral Values, he stood up and supported it.
And I fully understand why that puts him just as much on the hateful side as a Phelps in many people's eyes.
posted by delfin at 7:57 AM on December 19, 2023
I know that, and you know that, and people who apply critical thinking to it know that. And, frankly, having witnessed his behavior for close to thirty years, I don't think that he _is_ blipping over the rest of it. I think he tries to live his life according to both the Old and New Testaments, if you know what I mean.
The problem is that he was raised from birth and taught in his churches all his life that being gay is one of the Big Sins, and that it is simply not acceptable. Not enough for him to turn into some kind of raving Westboro Baptist crusader, not enough for him to (visibly to me, at least) discriminate against LGBTs in his daily life when they cross his path. But enough that when this Discrimination Roadshow movement came around and asked him to stand up for Good Ol' Traditional Moral Values, he stood up and supported it.
And I fully understand why that puts him just as much on the hateful side as a Phelps in many people's eyes.
posted by delfin at 7:57 AM on December 19, 2023
Complete derail -and I'm so sorry, but I've been obsessing about this for so long, I just need to get it out.
When I read the NYT article this morning, it actually included a snarky line about how they regularly bless people and objects--they mentioned boats, specifically--but by the time I sent it to my partner (we are queer and very much not married), they had removed the line. Someone got mad, I guess.
As a (former) 25 year subscriber I hate the NYTimes with the white hot passion of a 1000 suns. I thought about listing the top 250 reasons but recognized I need to actually work today. But one question I'm just dying to ask their leadership: do they not understand that after the undocumented all get lifetime trips to the inevitable TrumpCamps (coming to a desert near you in 2025) they are next? The fascists HATE the media more than anyone, especially the political media. It's like they have never read a history book - that combined with their delusional excusing the orange piece of shit for all of his hatred, 'vermin-ing' and blood poisoning he's promising just makes me go WTF?
posted by WatTylerJr at 9:28 AM on December 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
When I read the NYT article this morning, it actually included a snarky line about how they regularly bless people and objects--they mentioned boats, specifically--but by the time I sent it to my partner (we are queer and very much not married), they had removed the line. Someone got mad, I guess.
As a (former) 25 year subscriber I hate the NYTimes with the white hot passion of a 1000 suns. I thought about listing the top 250 reasons but recognized I need to actually work today. But one question I'm just dying to ask their leadership: do they not understand that after the undocumented all get lifetime trips to the inevitable TrumpCamps (coming to a desert near you in 2025) they are next? The fascists HATE the media more than anyone, especially the political media. It's like they have never read a history book - that combined with their delusional excusing the orange piece of shit for all of his hatred, 'vermin-ing' and blood poisoning he's promising just makes me go WTF?
posted by WatTylerJr at 9:28 AM on December 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
Vatican Saying Same-Sex Couples can be Blessed “a Key Step Forward” says DignityUSA. Dignity is a prominent LGBT Catholic group.
“This statement from the Vatican is a dramatic reversal of a document issued about two and a half years ago that declared blessings for same-sex couples could not be offered,” said Marianne Duddy-Burke, Executive Director of DignityUSA. “This is an important recognition that the denial of blessings caused great pastoral harm to many and demonstrates a willingness to rethink discriminatory and dehumanizing theology. It also feels like a vindication of the work so many LGBTQIA+ Catholics and allies have been doing for decades to convey our deep conviction that our sexuality and gender identities are blessings from God, and totally consistent with being faithful Catholics.”posted by Nelson at 9:30 AM on December 19, 2023 [7 favorites]
Leviticus 18:20 is ... a message to heterosexual men saying 'Don't shag people for your own gratification.'
Citation needed. This reads like a just-so story someone made up that, incidentally, erases thousands of years of human sexuality. Not to mention the history of oppression of homosexuals in Judeo-Christian cultures.
posted by Nelson at 9:30 AM on December 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
Citation needed. This reads like a just-so story someone made up that, incidentally, erases thousands of years of human sexuality. Not to mention the history of oppression of homosexuals in Judeo-Christian cultures.
posted by Nelson at 9:30 AM on December 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
NYT: American Catholics Split on Pope’s Blessing for Gay Couples
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:33 AM on December 19, 2023
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:33 AM on December 19, 2023
> I thought it was funny that the Catholic church is now becoming the liberal church in the U.S.
*raises an eyebrow in Unitarian*
posted by The corpse in the library at 12:03 PM on December 19, 2023 [9 favorites]
*raises an eyebrow in Unitarian*
posted by The corpse in the library at 12:03 PM on December 19, 2023 [9 favorites]
If 'liberal' is taken with its modern-day American definition, then that's actually not far off. Status-quoism with leanings towards acceptance sounds like liberalism to me, whereas a maximizing-individual-freedoms approach ala Unitarianism strikes me as far more progressive than liberall.
Now, whether Catholicism can ever count as 'liberal' by that definition is left as an exercise for the reader.
posted by delfin at 1:10 PM on December 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
Now, whether Catholicism can ever count as 'liberal' by that definition is left as an exercise for the reader.
posted by delfin at 1:10 PM on December 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
> I thought it was funny that the Catholic church is now becoming the liberal church in the U.S.
*raises an eyebrow in Unitarian*
As a Unitarian, I figure we're arguing with ourselves about if we should be called a church or not.
That being said, I'm also good with being the progressive church. (Or denomination. Or religion. Or whatever.)
posted by JustKeepSwimming at 3:55 PM on December 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
*raises an eyebrow in Unitarian*
As a Unitarian, I figure we're arguing with ourselves about if we should be called a church or not.
That being said, I'm also good with being the progressive church. (Or denomination. Or religion. Or whatever.)
posted by JustKeepSwimming at 3:55 PM on December 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
Here's a quick explanation of the standard anti-LGBT clobber passages and why the usual interpretations are wrong. So much of the received theology people are acquainted with was bad scholarship by people with axes to grind who couldn't read Hebrew or Greek. There are entire books on this if you're interested in learning more about modern understandings of this issue that go beyond "gay people are icky" to actual consider the etymology and historical context of the texts.
posted by hydropsyche at 3:56 PM on December 19, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by hydropsyche at 3:56 PM on December 19, 2023 [8 favorites]
> As a Unitarian, I figure we're arguing with ourselves about if we should be called a church or not.
Or even what to call ourselves. I say I'm a Unitarian but of course I mean Unitarian Universalist.
Even limited to Christians, I would put UCC far above Catholics on the list of liberal mainstream American churches.
posted by The corpse in the library at 3:59 PM on December 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
Or even what to call ourselves. I say I'm a Unitarian but of course I mean Unitarian Universalist.
Even limited to Christians, I would put UCC far above Catholics on the list of liberal mainstream American churches.
posted by The corpse in the library at 3:59 PM on December 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
As a lapsed Catholic, I approve, every bit helps. Pope Francis is not perfect, but he's the best Pope we have nowadays.
Also, I despise conservative American Bishops.
posted by ovvl at 5:54 PM on December 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
Also, I despise conservative American Bishops.
posted by ovvl at 5:54 PM on December 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
Here's a quick explanation of the standard anti-LGBT clobber passages and why the usual interpretations are wrong.
(tl;dr: being gay is okay, being effeminate is a SIN.)
posted by mittens at 7:27 PM on December 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
(tl;dr: being gay is okay, being effeminate is a SIN.)
posted by mittens at 7:27 PM on December 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
(tl;dr: being gay is okay, being effeminate is a SIN.)
There are a lot of people who legitimately believe that it is only gay if you are in the receptive/passive role. As in, it's gay to suck dick, but not gay if you happen to get sucked by whomever.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:05 PM on December 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
There are a lot of people who legitimately believe that it is only gay if you are in the receptive/passive role. As in, it's gay to suck dick, but not gay if you happen to get sucked by whomever.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:05 PM on December 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
Good for you for leaving.
posted by Nelson at 10:29 PM on December 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Nelson at 10:29 PM on December 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
(tl;dr: being gay is okay, being effeminate is a SIN.)
Yes, after 5 other points
1) covenant relationships are good
2) be hospitable and don't rape your guests
3) don't use people as sex slaves
4) don't have sex as part of rituals for other religions
5) no rape or temple prostitution
the 6th point notes that Paul didn't like effeminate men. Paul clearly had some issues. Probably a better tldr would be the last sentence of the article:
Yes, after 5 other points
1) covenant relationships are good
2) be hospitable and don't rape your guests
3) don't use people as sex slaves
4) don't have sex as part of rituals for other religions
5) no rape or temple prostitution
the 6th point notes that Paul didn't like effeminate men. Paul clearly had some issues. Probably a better tldr would be the last sentence of the article:
So, whether were speaking of heterosexual love or LGBTQ+ love, we would do well to embrace it as the divine gift that it is.posted by hydropsyche at 5:00 AM on December 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
What the Bible 'really' says simply doesn't matter. There is no 'really,' there are only layers of competing interpretation and the exercise of power scrutinizing and controlling the lives of Christians. We struggle to fit a gay-friendly reading into scripture. The churches that have accepted gay Christians don't get there through better reading and better interpretation of scripture, they get there through loosening up Christianity's deep concern for controlling relationships. Power, always power, because the other approach--the only honest approach to scripture--is to say Paul is wrong. God is wrong. And we must live around their wrongness if we stay, and deal with losing our friends and beliefs and certainties if we leave.
I'm not as welcoming of this development as hippybear because I want to be all, run! flee! don't try to get what you need from church! but I totally see his point, and the need for someone to feel some comfort if before they were in despair. But jeeeeeeez, it's a small, small step through a hostile, hostile world.
(Not to protestant-up the thread but I still remember finding out that a gay college friend had found a new and welcoming church after graduation. We'd been in a seriously repressive denomination in school, where gayness was to be met with tear-filled prayers of repentance, and confession to accountability partners who were generally straight and uncomprehending. I'd left the denomination as part of my coming out, losing all my friends, going adrift. And I was just shocked that he'd found a church that accepted him the way he was. Was it that easy? How could that be fair? You can't just shift gears like that, one minute God hates you, the next minute God loves you! It's so jarring. I wonder what it does for all that church-trauma, to just drop into a world that accepts you? Do you still have to work through it all? Do you still have to go to therapy and confess your sadness to therapists who are generally straight and uncomprehending? Maybe the Pope has the right idea. Maybe you ease into it like a hot bath--plunge in and you'll get scalded. So you go slowly and just gradually get used to the idea of being treated like a human being again.)
posted by mittens at 5:25 AM on December 20, 2023 [7 favorites]
I'm not as welcoming of this development as hippybear because I want to be all, run! flee! don't try to get what you need from church! but I totally see his point, and the need for someone to feel some comfort if before they were in despair. But jeeeeeeez, it's a small, small step through a hostile, hostile world.
(Not to protestant-up the thread but I still remember finding out that a gay college friend had found a new and welcoming church after graduation. We'd been in a seriously repressive denomination in school, where gayness was to be met with tear-filled prayers of repentance, and confession to accountability partners who were generally straight and uncomprehending. I'd left the denomination as part of my coming out, losing all my friends, going adrift. And I was just shocked that he'd found a church that accepted him the way he was. Was it that easy? How could that be fair? You can't just shift gears like that, one minute God hates you, the next minute God loves you! It's so jarring. I wonder what it does for all that church-trauma, to just drop into a world that accepts you? Do you still have to work through it all? Do you still have to go to therapy and confess your sadness to therapists who are generally straight and uncomprehending? Maybe the Pope has the right idea. Maybe you ease into it like a hot bath--plunge in and you'll get scalded. So you go slowly and just gradually get used to the idea of being treated like a human being again.)
posted by mittens at 5:25 AM on December 20, 2023 [7 favorites]
Good for you for leaving.
Doesn't sound to me like hippybear WANTED to, dude.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:39 AM on December 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
Doesn't sound to me like hippybear WANTED to, dude.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:39 AM on December 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
Here's a quick explanation of the standard anti-LGBT clobber passages and why the usual interpretations are wrong.
This. The Human Rights Campaign also makes some honest and useful points.
posted by Cardinal Fang at 6:24 AM on December 20, 2023
This. The Human Rights Campaign also makes some honest and useful points.
posted by Cardinal Fang at 6:24 AM on December 20, 2023
I very much admire the courage that it took to leave that community behind and be true to yourself, hippybear, despite the enormous sacrifices it entailed. That takes real bravery.
posted by MrVisible at 8:45 PM on December 20, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by MrVisible at 8:45 PM on December 20, 2023 [6 favorites]
Thank you for sharing your story, hippybear.
Interesting new history / background info in the NYT: Pope’s Shift on Gay Couples Followed Quiet Talks and Loud Resistance
Interesting new history / background info in the NYT: Pope’s Shift on Gay Couples Followed Quiet Talks and Loud Resistance
It was a long process, filled with fits and starts, but also the result of a gradual reorganization of the church by Francis, including the recent appointment to top jobs of like-minded churchmen who were amenable to the changes. The death last year of his conservative predecessor freed the pope’s hand, experts say, but they also believe that the overreach of Vatican antagonists — who sought to box Francis in — played a part, backfiring spectacularly. ...posted by Nelson at 2:15 PM on December 21, 2023 [5 favorites]
“Francis had to move slowly, slowly, like a turtle,” said Marco Politi, a veteran Vatican analyst and author of “Pope Francis Among the Wolves.” He added that the pope “had to take into account the power relations within the church.”
Pope calls for ban on surrogacy, calling it ‘based on exploitation’
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:04 AM on January 9
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:04 AM on January 9
I don't think he's wrong that commercial surrogacy is deeply based in exploitation of poor women. I don't think that's an anti-queer stance; rather it's part of a larger stance on worry about rich countries and people in rich countries exploiting the poor and people in poor ones. He is correct that it is nearly always poor women who are doing this for the fairly significant money involved. (Over 100K in the US; which means many people go to poorer countries for their surrogates: here's apiece from the Oxford Human Rights Hub on the problems involved.) I really feel this issue, as someone who struggles with fertility myself, but I do agree that it's a problem when wealthy people have the ability to buy children and poor people are the ones providing them, often through legal contracts they don't fully understand. (You see this problem with adoption as well, which is only available to the rich and usually involves the children of the poor, many of whom would have kept their children if they had the means of meeting their material needs themselves).
posted by corb at 8:16 AM on January 9 [1 favorite]
posted by corb at 8:16 AM on January 9 [1 favorite]
it's a problem when wealthy people have the ability to buy children and poor people are the ones providing them, often through legal contracts they don't fully understand
So it’s primarily a problem of poverty rather than surrogacy, per se. The Pope should attack poverty more directly, then, rather than one of its symptoms, if the real concern is exploitation of poor people.
It’s also hilariously ironic. Jesus was a surrogate baby, after all.
posted by LooseFilter at 9:21 AM on January 9 [1 favorite]
So it’s primarily a problem of poverty rather than surrogacy, per se. The Pope should attack poverty more directly, then, rather than one of its symptoms, if the real concern is exploitation of poor people.
It’s also hilariously ironic. Jesus was a surrogate baby, after all.
posted by LooseFilter at 9:21 AM on January 9 [1 favorite]
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