“Well, don’t come with an easy question.”
December 28, 2023 7:50 AM Subscribe
After an 'astonishing' initial response, Nikki Haley acknowledges the Civil War was 'about slavery.'
States' rights to do what ?
posted by MonsieurPEB at 8:02 AM on December 28, 2023 [56 favorites]
posted by MonsieurPEB at 8:02 AM on December 28, 2023 [56 favorites]
It's possible to answer "What was the Civil War about?" with other than "slavery." But none of the alternatives make the South look any better. Probably the fairest alternate answer is "Whether or not Presidential Elections really count, or if some Americans are allowed to say 'we will not accept that President no matter how many other Americans voted for him.'"
Of course the reason that some Americans tried to say that was... slavery.
posted by Aardvark Cheeselog at 8:02 AM on December 28, 2023 [13 favorites]
Of course the reason that some Americans tried to say that was... slavery.
posted by Aardvark Cheeselog at 8:02 AM on December 28, 2023 [13 favorites]
I had thought that Haley was supposed to be the savior for the Rs from Trumpism.
But it turns out, she's just fascist with a different color outfit.
posted by hippybear at 8:03 AM on December 28, 2023 [14 favorites]
But it turns out, she's just fascist with a different color outfit.
posted by hippybear at 8:03 AM on December 28, 2023 [14 favorites]
States' rights to do what ?
Own human beings like they were Pokemon cards but treat them much worse.
posted by tommasz at 8:13 AM on December 28, 2023 [10 favorites]
Own human beings like they were Pokemon cards but treat them much worse.
posted by tommasz at 8:13 AM on December 28, 2023 [10 favorites]
I wonder if the US is ever going to reckon with its legacy of slavery the way the Germans have with Nazism. Given the extra distance in time it seems unlikely. I also suspect there are more pro-slavery Americans than there are pro-Nazi Germans, although that's an interesting question to try to get an answer to.
posted by Nelson at 8:16 AM on December 28, 2023 [20 favorites]
posted by Nelson at 8:16 AM on December 28, 2023 [20 favorites]
I've wanted to not hate Haley, in the hopes that she would actually be the thoughtful post-Trump conservative that leads the GOP back from the antidemocratic, fascist abyss.
Talk about an own goal. Way to squander a surge in the polls. With hindsight, her uncompromising anti-abortion position should have been more of a tell. Just another MAGAt.
Bye, Nikki.
posted by Artful Codger at 8:19 AM on December 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
Talk about an own goal. Way to squander a surge in the polls. With hindsight, her uncompromising anti-abortion position should have been more of a tell. Just another MAGAt.
Bye, Nikki.
posted by Artful Codger at 8:19 AM on December 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
My fifty year stretch of contempt and loathing for republicans remains unbroken.
posted by chronkite at 8:20 AM on December 28, 2023 [71 favorites]
posted by chronkite at 8:20 AM on December 28, 2023 [71 favorites]
Hopefully this finally puts a stake through the heart of the old "party of Lincoln" canard. You can't hold up the Emancipation Proclamation as an achievement of your party and simultaneously play it coy about the root causes of the Civil War.
posted by Strange Interlude at 8:23 AM on December 28, 2023 [49 favorites]
posted by Strange Interlude at 8:23 AM on December 28, 2023 [49 favorites]
And remember, Haley is supposed to be the smart one.
posted by SPrintF at 8:28 AM on December 28, 2023 [12 favorites]
posted by SPrintF at 8:28 AM on December 28, 2023 [12 favorites]
It's possible to answer "What was the Civil War about?" with other than "slavery."
That is absolutely incorrect, unless you want to say that the Civil War wasn't about states seceding.
Most states wrote and published a declaration of causes for seceding.
State and number of words before slavery is directly referenced in their declaration of causes:
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 8:29 AM on December 28, 2023 [61 favorites]
That is absolutely incorrect, unless you want to say that the Civil War wasn't about states seceding.
Most states wrote and published a declaration of causes for seceding.
State and number of words before slavery is directly referenced in their declaration of causes:
State Words ------ ------- Georgia 50 Mississippi 49 South Carolina 67 Texas 186 Virginia 98Source: The Declaration Of Causes for Seceding States
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 8:29 AM on December 28, 2023 [61 favorites]
She apparently claimed the questioner was a plant, sent by the Biden campaign. Even if that was true, Nikki, how do you still screw up the answer?
And doesn't that attitude reveal what she thinks a town hall is? It's as if she only expected softballs to be tossed at her, expecting the entire affair to be an arranged meeting to specifically make her look good, regardless of concerns voters might have. Hey, Nikki: that ain't a town hall; it's a pep rally.
posted by grubi at 8:36 AM on December 28, 2023 [25 favorites]
And doesn't that attitude reveal what she thinks a town hall is? It's as if she only expected softballs to be tossed at her, expecting the entire affair to be an arranged meeting to specifically make her look good, regardless of concerns voters might have. Hey, Nikki: that ain't a town hall; it's a pep rally.
posted by grubi at 8:36 AM on December 28, 2023 [25 favorites]
Pretty sure Biden’s running against the actual Republican nominee, who could both say the civil war wasn’t about slavery or that it wasn’t without significant pushback from anyone.
posted by Artw at 8:39 AM on December 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Artw at 8:39 AM on December 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
I look forward to post-Iowa and New Hampshire, when we can dispense with the fantasy that any of these non-Trump clowns will be the nominee and get back to the business of being laser-focused on "whatever you may think about Biden, the first and most important thing is to not let Trump get anywhere close to returning to power."
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 8:41 AM on December 28, 2023 [30 favorites]
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 8:41 AM on December 28, 2023 [30 favorites]
i mean, for the republican base this is the least softball question possible, like, it's the opposite of a softball question, it's the question equivalent of that time randy johnson exploded a pigeon.
as i see it, haley screwed up her answer as badly as possible. she had two options:
probably this blunder happened because she's spent so much time focusing on the neoconfederate vote/being around neoconfederates that she geniunely forgot the actual cause of the civil war until she was reminded of it.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 8:44 AM on December 28, 2023 [19 favorites]
as i see it, haley screwed up her answer as badly as possible. she had two options:
- say "slavery", like a normal person
- keep saying "states rights! states rights!" and then mix in a few other lee-atwaterian dogwhistles
probably this blunder happened because she's spent so much time focusing on the neoconfederate vote/being around neoconfederates that she geniunely forgot the actual cause of the civil war until she was reminded of it.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 8:44 AM on December 28, 2023 [19 favorites]
Stipulating that this is a garbage answer from a garbage candidate in a garbage field of garbage candidates.
Considering that she is running in a GOP primary not a general and her mission right now is to somehow peel votes away from "the base," would her strategy have been better if she'd unequivocally said slavery was the cause of the Civil War? While that should have been her answer, not sure it would have helped that mission.
It's clearly a trap question to ask, and the idea that it was a Biden campaign plant probably has merit. If true, I say well played.
posted by mcstayinskool at 8:45 AM on December 28, 2023 [6 favorites]
Considering that she is running in a GOP primary not a general and her mission right now is to somehow peel votes away from "the base," would her strategy have been better if she'd unequivocally said slavery was the cause of the Civil War? While that should have been her answer, not sure it would have helped that mission.
It's clearly a trap question to ask, and the idea that it was a Biden campaign plant probably has merit. If true, I say well played.
posted by mcstayinskool at 8:45 AM on December 28, 2023 [6 favorites]
Why do people insist on still believing in “the good Republican”? These people are all still appealing to the same voters, and it shows. They all signed off on Trump and they will all support him once he secures the nomination. The fact that any of this surprises anyone is frankly baffling to me. The GOP has been openly the party of hate, anti-democracy and authoritarianism for long enough now that anyone who still claims to vote that way for purely economic reasons is being entirely disingenuous.
posted by rikschell at 8:47 AM on December 28, 2023 [60 favorites]
posted by rikschell at 8:47 AM on December 28, 2023 [60 favorites]
Oh Nikki, you're so dumb
You're so dumb, you make me numb
Hey Nikki!
Hey Nikki!
posted by Greg_Ace at 8:48 AM on December 28, 2023 [29 favorites]
You're so dumb, you make me numb
Hey Nikki!
Hey Nikki!
posted by Greg_Ace at 8:48 AM on December 28, 2023 [29 favorites]
>It's possible to answer "What was the Civil War about?" with other than "slavery."
That is absolutely incorrect, unless you want to say that the Civil War wasn't about states seceding.
Just to drive this home, the very first points mentioned in the Declaration of Causes for Georgia, Mississippi, South Carolina, Texas, and Virginia.
GEORGIA
That is absolutely incorrect, unless you want to say that the Civil War wasn't about states seceding.
Just to drive this home, the very first points mentioned in the Declaration of Causes for Georgia, Mississippi, South Carolina, Texas, and Virginia.
GEORGIA
The people of Georgia having dissolved their political connection with the Government of the United States of America, present to their confederates and the world the causes which have led to the separation. For the last ten years we have had numerous and serious causes of complaint against our non-slave-holding confederate States with reference to the subject of African slavery [...]MISSISSIPPI
In the momentous step which our State has taken of dissolving its connection with the government of which we so long formed a part, it is but just that we should declare the prominent reasons which have induced our course.SOUTH CAROLINA
Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world. [...]
The people of the State of South Carolina, in Convention assembled, on the 26th day of April, A.D., 1852, declared that the frequent violations of the Constitution of the United States, by the Federal Government, and its encroachments upon the reserved rights of the States, fully justified this State in then withdrawing from the Federal Union; but in deference to the opinions and wishes of the other slaveholding States, she forbore at that time to exercise this right. Since that time, these encroachments have continued to increase, and further forbearance ceases to be a virtue. [...]TEXAS
[...]VIRGINIA
Texas abandoned her separate national existence and consented to become one of the Confederated Union to promote her welfare, insure domestic tranquility and secure more substantially the blessings of peace and liberty to her people. She was received into the confederacy with her own constitution, under the guarantee of the federal constitution and the compact of annexation, that she should enjoy these blessings. She was received as a commonwealth holding, maintaining and protecting the institution known as negro slavery-- the servitude of the African to the white race within her limits-- a relation that had existed from the first settlement of her wilderness by the white race, and which her people intended should exist in all future time. [...]
The people of Virginia, in their ratification of the Constitution of the United States of America, adopted by them in Convention on the twenty-fifth day of June, in the year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and eighty-eight, having declared that the powers granted under the said Constitution were derived from the people of the United States, and might be resumed whensoever the same should be perverted to their injury and oppression; and the Federal Government, having perverted said powers, not only to the injury of the people of Virginia, but to the oppression of the Southern Slaveholding States. [...]posted by Tell Me No Lies at 8:51 AM on December 28, 2023 [56 favorites]
It's a weird self-own on the same level as those college presidents who went [voluntarily?!?] before Congress and then hung themselves unable to give the correct answer about jewish genocide.
posted by hippybear at 8:52 AM on December 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by hippybear at 8:52 AM on December 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
The thing is, she gave the right answer the first time, as far as her voters are concerned. The fact that she believes in factual truth enough to fold under pressure proves that she’ll never be able to win a Republican primary.
posted by rikschell at 8:55 AM on December 28, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by rikschell at 8:55 AM on December 28, 2023 [9 favorites]
I wonder if the US is ever going to reckon with its legacy of slavery the way the Germans have with Nazism. Given the extra distance in time it seems unlikely. I also suspect there are more pro-slavery Americans than there are pro-Nazi Germans, although that's an interesting question to try to get an answer to.
No, I don't think so because there was no real punishment of those who led the rebellion. Yes, I know there were actual Nazis allowed to live their lives unphased by the end of the war, but there were also trials and a handful of executions.
The South? They just went back to their usual lives.
By the way, no story about Nikki Haley should neglect to mention that South Carolina led the secession.
From a Charleston newspaper in November 1860: “The issue before the country is the extinction of slavery...The Southern States are now in the crisis of their fate; and, if we read aright the signs of the times, nothing is needed for our deliverance, but that the ball of revolution be set in motion.”
- Charleston Mercury on November 3, 1860
And the state's secession documents: [A]n increasing hostility on the part of the non-slaveholding States to the institution of slavery, has led to a disregard of their obligations, and the laws of the General Government have ceased to effect the objects of the Constitution. The States of Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Rhode Island, New York, Pennsylvania, Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, Wisconsin and Iowa, have enacted laws which either nullify the Acts of Congress or render useless any attempt to execute them. In many of these States the fugitive is discharged from service or labor claimed, and in none of them has the State Government complied with the stipulation made in the Constitution. . . .
For twenty-five years this agitation has been steadily increasing, until it has now secured to its aid the power of the common Government. Observing the forms of the Constitution, a sectional party has found within that Article establishing the Executive Department, the means of subverting the Constitution itself. A geographical line has been drawn across the Union, and all the States north of that line have united in the election of a man to the high office of President of the United States, whose opinions and purposes are hostile to slavery. He is to be entrusted with the administration of the common Government, because he has declared that that “Government cannot endure permanently half slave, half free,” and that the public mind must rest in the belief that slavery is in the course of ultimate extinction. . . .
posted by etaoin at 8:58 AM on December 28, 2023 [10 favorites]
No, I don't think so because there was no real punishment of those who led the rebellion. Yes, I know there were actual Nazis allowed to live their lives unphased by the end of the war, but there were also trials and a handful of executions.
The South? They just went back to their usual lives.
By the way, no story about Nikki Haley should neglect to mention that South Carolina led the secession.
From a Charleston newspaper in November 1860: “The issue before the country is the extinction of slavery...The Southern States are now in the crisis of their fate; and, if we read aright the signs of the times, nothing is needed for our deliverance, but that the ball of revolution be set in motion.”
- Charleston Mercury on November 3, 1860
And the state's secession documents: [A]n increasing hostility on the part of the non-slaveholding States to the institution of slavery, has led to a disregard of their obligations, and the laws of the General Government have ceased to effect the objects of the Constitution. The States of Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Rhode Island, New York, Pennsylvania, Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, Wisconsin and Iowa, have enacted laws which either nullify the Acts of Congress or render useless any attempt to execute them. In many of these States the fugitive is discharged from service or labor claimed, and in none of them has the State Government complied with the stipulation made in the Constitution. . . .
For twenty-five years this agitation has been steadily increasing, until it has now secured to its aid the power of the common Government. Observing the forms of the Constitution, a sectional party has found within that Article establishing the Executive Department, the means of subverting the Constitution itself. A geographical line has been drawn across the Union, and all the States north of that line have united in the election of a man to the high office of President of the United States, whose opinions and purposes are hostile to slavery. He is to be entrusted with the administration of the common Government, because he has declared that that “Government cannot endure permanently half slave, half free,” and that the public mind must rest in the belief that slavery is in the course of ultimate extinction. . . .
posted by etaoin at 8:58 AM on December 28, 2023 [10 favorites]
This issue was one of the few places it became clear to me that my liberal, wealthy school district in the south had miseducated me. My APUSH teacher (who was excellent in many respects) absolutely pushed this story/mythmaking: “it’s a misnomer that the civil war was about slavery, it was actually about [sophistic explanations].” What do the APUSH standards say, I wonder?
posted by eirias at 9:01 AM on December 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by eirias at 9:01 AM on December 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
the idea that it was a Biden campaign plant probably has merit. If true, I say well played.
Nah. In Northern New Hampshire, it’s almost certainly just some old guy with his own opinions, standing behind his sons who were seated in the last row, just as described. Probably has been a Republican his whole life, but more of the “leave me alone to do my thing” variety. Likely grew up with high school or junior high civics classes that emphasized the North’s role as saviors being on the right side of slavery and history in the US Civil War. Secondary possibility is that he’s not a Republican and went to ask that question specifically (with sons for some protection in case things got heated) - there are also some liberals in Northern New Hampshire.
posted by eviemath at 9:02 AM on December 28, 2023 [17 favorites]
Nah. In Northern New Hampshire, it’s almost certainly just some old guy with his own opinions, standing behind his sons who were seated in the last row, just as described. Probably has been a Republican his whole life, but more of the “leave me alone to do my thing” variety. Likely grew up with high school or junior high civics classes that emphasized the North’s role as saviors being on the right side of slavery and history in the US Civil War. Secondary possibility is that he’s not a Republican and went to ask that question specifically (with sons for some protection in case things got heated) - there are also some liberals in Northern New Hampshire.
posted by eviemath at 9:02 AM on December 28, 2023 [17 favorites]
At a town hall in North Conway on Thursday, Bill Anderson, who plans to vote for Haley and has donated to her campaign, sat in a crowded high school library, expecting to hear more from Haley about the role slavery played in the start of the Civil War.
Dark irony that the Washington Post manages to interview the Haley supporter who shares a name with Bloody Bill Anderson.
posted by peeedro at 9:05 AM on December 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
Dark irony that the Washington Post manages to interview the Haley supporter who shares a name with Bloody Bill Anderson.
posted by peeedro at 9:05 AM on December 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
This issue was one of the few places it became clear to me that my liberal, wealthy school district in the south had miseducated me.
Depending on which southern state and when you took AP US History it would have been called either "The War of Northern Aggression" or "The Late Unpleasantness", so you can be forgiven for any confusion.
posted by The Bellman at 9:05 AM on December 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
Depending on which southern state and when you took AP US History it would have been called either "The War of Northern Aggression" or "The Late Unpleasantness", so you can be forgiven for any confusion.
posted by The Bellman at 9:05 AM on December 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
“That freedom matters. And individual rights and liberties matter for all people. That’s the blessing of America. That was a stain on America when we had slavery. But what we want is never relive it. Never let anyone take those freedoms away again.”
Again?
I don't think her phrasing counts as an outright dogwhistle, but I'm surprised she didn't immediately segue into an attack on gun control or socialism or woke schools or any other Republican talking point about the liberal attack on muh freedoms. Because Republicans are always not gonna let anyone take their freedoms away, even as they themselves take people's freedoms away.
Maybe I'm just reading a little too much into her half-assed attempt to acknowledge and condemn slavery without acknowledging and condemning institutional slavery, but this phrasing really rubs me the wrong way. She doesn't seem to be condemning slavery as much as she's using it as a vague "it could happen to you" warning to Republican voters.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 9:06 AM on December 28, 2023 [9 favorites]
Again?
I don't think her phrasing counts as an outright dogwhistle, but I'm surprised she didn't immediately segue into an attack on gun control or socialism or woke schools or any other Republican talking point about the liberal attack on muh freedoms. Because Republicans are always not gonna let anyone take their freedoms away, even as they themselves take people's freedoms away.
Maybe I'm just reading a little too much into her half-assed attempt to acknowledge and condemn slavery without acknowledging and condemning institutional slavery, but this phrasing really rubs me the wrong way. She doesn't seem to be condemning slavery as much as she's using it as a vague "it could happen to you" warning to Republican voters.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 9:06 AM on December 28, 2023 [9 favorites]
Depending on which southern state and when you took AP US History it would have been called either "The War of Northern Aggression" or "The Late Unpleasantness", so you can be forgiven for any confusion.
Hah! Not that far south. This was Montgomery County, MD in the 90s. We were taught about Native land grabs, resettlement, and smallpox blankets; we were taught about slavery and Jim Crow; I think there was even a brief unit on the labor movement and its importance. But this was a blind spot.
posted by eirias at 9:10 AM on December 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
Hah! Not that far south. This was Montgomery County, MD in the 90s. We were taught about Native land grabs, resettlement, and smallpox blankets; we were taught about slavery and Jim Crow; I think there was even a brief unit on the labor movement and its importance. But this was a blind spot.
posted by eirias at 9:10 AM on December 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
Related: the Texas Revolution in 1835 that won Texas independence was also about slavery. Most Texans, including progressive-minded ones, don't really understand this. Texas kids are required to take two years of Texas history but the curriculum likes to talk a lot more about the Alamo than, say, Mexico's abolition of slavery in 1829. The Texians wanted to continue being slavers, the English speaking settlers from the US were building a whole new economy around owning people.
Just like the "war of northern aggression" nonsense it's all stupid mythbuilding. Built around denying th fact that many of our own ancestors built a nation out of the most brutal subjugation of other humans. One of America's two original sins that we have never really acknowledged or atoned for.
posted by Nelson at 9:10 AM on December 28, 2023 [35 favorites]
Just like the "war of northern aggression" nonsense it's all stupid mythbuilding. Built around denying th fact that many of our own ancestors built a nation out of the most brutal subjugation of other humans. One of America's two original sins that we have never really acknowledged or atoned for.
posted by Nelson at 9:10 AM on December 28, 2023 [35 favorites]
It's her Sarah Palin moment, a real slippery gotcha question for sure, and also, she shoulda taken a page from Tina Fey and said, "I'd like to use one of my lifelines."
But seriously, it is now historical fact that the GOP exists in a state in which a "leading" candidate cannot acknowledge slavery as the cause of the Civil War without being labeled "woke".
I guess we can now add slavery to the lengthening list of words our GOP overlords demand we don't say (or teach, or allow to be read): gay, slavery, women's rights, voting rights, racism, police brutality, gender identity, climate change .....
posted by thecincinnatikid at 9:32 AM on December 28, 2023 [12 favorites]
But seriously, it is now historical fact that the GOP exists in a state in which a "leading" candidate cannot acknowledge slavery as the cause of the Civil War without being labeled "woke".
I guess we can now add slavery to the lengthening list of words our GOP overlords demand we don't say (or teach, or allow to be read): gay, slavery, women's rights, voting rights, racism, police brutality, gender identity, climate change .....
posted by thecincinnatikid at 9:32 AM on December 28, 2023 [12 favorites]
Don't talk about the war!
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 9:39 AM on December 28, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 9:39 AM on December 28, 2023 [6 favorites]
I can't believe that of all the R's in the run that Chris Christie is the least insufferable (though it's easy when he only has to say "Trump bad") - lord knows when he opens his mouth there's plenty I don't like coming out. But... He's still better than any of these others.
It's funny cuz now that Trump has set the goalpost, the "less bad" Repubs will get a pass on their horribleness.
My friend comes from a long line of rednecks and his nephew is flying the Confederate flag. Friend had a talk with him "It's just redneck heritage and pride" according to the nephew.
I wanna be like "Your heritage is Northern Redneck, this is not your tradition. Stop letting the south dictate what it means to be a redneck to you."
Fuck IDGAF if you like beer and all the redneck shit, just don't be a fuckwit that flies that flag in the name of a heritage you never had.
posted by symbioid at 9:58 AM on December 28, 2023 [17 favorites]
It's funny cuz now that Trump has set the goalpost, the "less bad" Repubs will get a pass on their horribleness.
My friend comes from a long line of rednecks and his nephew is flying the Confederate flag. Friend had a talk with him "It's just redneck heritage and pride" according to the nephew.
I wanna be like "Your heritage is Northern Redneck, this is not your tradition. Stop letting the south dictate what it means to be a redneck to you."
Fuck IDGAF if you like beer and all the redneck shit, just don't be a fuckwit that flies that flag in the name of a heritage you never had.
posted by symbioid at 9:58 AM on December 28, 2023 [17 favorites]
Who asked the question? They have my thanks. She knows, but she wanted to keep the racist dog whistle state's rights answer intact because, votes. Anybody still a GOPer after Trump is a fucked-up asshole. They were assholes previously, but it has gotten So Much Worse since Reagan, and Trump escalated it by an order of magnitude. She knows it's horribly racist, doesn't care, Winning Is Everything. They are destroying the US and the world with their corruption, lies, and greed.
posted by theora55 at 10:24 AM on December 28, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by theora55 at 10:24 AM on December 28, 2023 [11 favorites]
The constitution, it is true, secured every essential guarantee to the institution while it should last, and hence no argument can be justly urged against the constitutional guarantees thus secured, because of the common sentiment of the day. Those ideas, however, were fundamentally wrong. They rested upon the assumption of the equality of races. This was an error. It was a sandy foundation, and the government built upon it fell when the "storm came and the wind blew."
Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner-stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth. This truth has been slow in the process of its development, like all other truths in the various departments of science.
Alexander H. Stephens, Vice President of the Confederate States of America, Savannah, Georgia, March 21, 1861.
posted by TedW at 10:25 AM on December 28, 2023 [23 favorites]
Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner-stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth. This truth has been slow in the process of its development, like all other truths in the various departments of science.
Alexander H. Stephens, Vice President of the Confederate States of America, Savannah, Georgia, March 21, 1861.
posted by TedW at 10:25 AM on December 28, 2023 [23 favorites]
She apparently claimed the questioner was a plant, sent by the Biden campaign.
This is a good example of a double standard on the right vs. the left. Samuel Joseph Wurzelbacher walks up to Obama and asks an incoherent question about taxes based on a fictional premise, gets a decent answer, and he's suddenly a minor political celebrity, "Joe the Plumber." Democrats didn't whine about it.
Here some guy (Steve the Dentist? Jim the Regional Logistics Manager?) asks a very basic historical question, Haley whiffs, and it's somehow unfair.
posted by anhedonic at 10:28 AM on December 28, 2023 [32 favorites]
This is a good example of a double standard on the right vs. the left. Samuel Joseph Wurzelbacher walks up to Obama and asks an incoherent question about taxes based on a fictional premise, gets a decent answer, and he's suddenly a minor political celebrity, "Joe the Plumber." Democrats didn't whine about it.
Here some guy (Steve the Dentist? Jim the Regional Logistics Manager?) asks a very basic historical question, Haley whiffs, and it's somehow unfair.
posted by anhedonic at 10:28 AM on December 28, 2023 [32 favorites]
Also, it is worth remembering that while Haley is often given credit for removing the banner of the racist traitors from the capitol building in South Carolina, she resisted calls to do so until a racist terrorist gunned down 9 black worshippers at a church in Charleston.
posted by TedW at 10:29 AM on December 28, 2023 [29 favorites]
posted by TedW at 10:29 AM on December 28, 2023 [29 favorites]
I don't know why people are so quick to say this will harm her candidacy. If you surveyed her high school graduating class at least 60% would answer that the "war of northern aggression" was about "states rights." Any condemnation in the national media is 1. free publicity, and 2. definitely a plus with the Republican base. She isn't going to win the nomination but it won't be because of this.
Even her clarification had enough weasel words that you could interpret that the "freedom" we can never let be taken away again is the freedom from northern oppression.
posted by being_quiet at 10:57 AM on December 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
Even her clarification had enough weasel words that you could interpret that the "freedom" we can never let be taken away again is the freedom from northern oppression.
posted by being_quiet at 10:57 AM on December 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
her candidacy is about as viable as desantis' candidacy, which is to say "not at all"
posted by Ferreous at 11:21 AM on December 28, 2023
posted by Ferreous at 11:21 AM on December 28, 2023
I had thought that Haley was supposed to be the savior for the Rs from Trumpism.Trump is the symptom, not the cause.
posted by Flunkie at 11:38 AM on December 28, 2023 [23 favorites]
METAFILTER: the question equivalent of that time randy johnson exploded a pigeon.
posted by philip-random at 11:50 AM on December 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by philip-random at 11:50 AM on December 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
there is no savior from Trumpism for the Rs... this is exactly who they are. the only difference is how loud, how articulate, and how effective.
posted by kokaku at 12:03 PM on December 28, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by kokaku at 12:03 PM on December 28, 2023 [7 favorites]
I don't know why people are so quick to say this will harm her candidacy
Doing one or the other would probably have been okay, but the problem for her is that she didn't double down on "blah blah state's rights" and instead issued a correction. That doesn't appeal to anyone, there's no "maybe the civil war was about slavery, I guess" constituency in the Republican primary electorate, is there?
posted by BungaDunga at 12:04 PM on December 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
Doing one or the other would probably have been okay, but the problem for her is that she didn't double down on "blah blah state's rights" and instead issued a correction. That doesn't appeal to anyone, there's no "maybe the civil war was about slavery, I guess" constituency in the Republican primary electorate, is there?
posted by BungaDunga at 12:04 PM on December 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
Also of note is the Confederacy's Constitution, which is to a large extent essentially the same as the US Constitution, often word-for-word for large swaths at a time. The only real significant differences (other than, like, "Confederate" instead of "United") are all about slavery.It's possible to answer "What was the Civil War about?" with other than "slavery."That is absolutely incorrect, unless you want to say that the Civil War wasn't about states seceding.
Most states wrote and published a declaration of causes for seceding. [...]
If it wasn't about slavery, I guess we have to look to the other differences between the two constitutions. Let's see now... ah, yeah, here we go: As everybody knows, the Confederates were very, very angry -- to the point of armed rebellion -- by the fact that the US Constitution doesn't allow someone to be a Senator unless they've been a citizen for at least nine years.
Oh, and also, very angry about Congress being allowed to allocate funds in order to make improvements to facilitate commerce. Allocating funds to make improvements to facilitate commerce, after all, is obviously tyranny! Well, except allocating funds to make improvements to facilitate commerce by putting buoys, warning beacons and whatnot along the coasts. Or allocating funds to make improvements to facilitate commerce by clearing obstacles in navigable rivers. That's not tyranny, of course.
posted by Flunkie at 12:09 PM on December 28, 2023 [13 favorites]
“It was about states rights!”
“States rights to do what, exactly?”
“Ummmmm” pulls at collar, starts vibrating
posted by rhymedirective at 12:14 PM on December 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
“States rights to do what, exactly?”
“Ummmmm” pulls at collar, starts vibrating
posted by rhymedirective at 12:14 PM on December 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
Artw Naah, the actual Republican nominee, Donald John Trump, wouldn't have said both that it was and wasn't about slavery. He'd have said it was terrible, just terrible, people were said, then gone off on some random tangent about some very smart relative of his who told him that civil wars were bad, then he'd have praised his supporters for trying to overthrow the government, gone off on Biden for being a dictator and trying to start a civil war, repeated that civil wars were bad, talked about border security and why immigration is bad, talked about crime in the inner cities and CRT, declared that when he's president again he'll end affirmative action, looped back to the Civil War by again saying it was horrible, just horrible, and that if Joe Biden had his way America would have another Civil War which would be very sad.
His "answer" would take over 10 minutes of rambling totally unrelated to the question because I'm pretty sure Trump doesn't even know America had a civil war.
posted by sotonohito at 12:25 PM on December 28, 2023 [14 favorites]
His "answer" would take over 10 minutes of rambling totally unrelated to the question because I'm pretty sure Trump doesn't even know America had a civil war.
posted by sotonohito at 12:25 PM on December 28, 2023 [14 favorites]
“Government doesn’t need to tell you how to live your life. They don’t need to tell you what you can and can’t do. They don’t need to be a part of your life.”
...unless of course you are talking about gender, or race, or birth control, or religion, or social justice, or healthcare, or the environment, or...
posted by caution live frogs at 12:27 PM on December 28, 2023 [21 favorites]
...unless of course you are talking about gender, or race, or birth control, or religion, or social justice, or healthcare, or the environment, or...
posted by caution live frogs at 12:27 PM on December 28, 2023 [21 favorites]
As for Haley, and really all the others, are they doing this as practice for 2028? Or just in case Trump has an aneurism or something so he can't be the nominee on account of being dead? That Trump will be the Republican Party nominee is about as certain as Biden being the Democratic Party nominee, they can't be stupid enough to actually think they have a chance of beating him.
I'm a bit surprised she later admitted that slavery was the cause of the Civil War, saying that gains her no points with an potential Republican voters and alienates a fairly large group of Republican voters. If there was ever a time for a politician to equivocate and dance around a topic, that was it. Yes, she'd look like a fool to anyone except a Republican voter, but why should she care about that?
posted by sotonohito at 12:28 PM on December 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
I'm a bit surprised she later admitted that slavery was the cause of the Civil War, saying that gains her no points with an potential Republican voters and alienates a fairly large group of Republican voters. If there was ever a time for a politician to equivocate and dance around a topic, that was it. Yes, she'd look like a fool to anyone except a Republican voter, but why should she care about that?
posted by sotonohito at 12:28 PM on December 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
I'm a bit surprised she later admitted that slavery was the cause of the Civil War, saying that gains her no points with an potential Republican voters and alienates a fairly large group of Republican voters.The part that really surprised me about this was "Yes, I know it was about slavery. I am from the South."
Like... is the South not the primary hotbed for people who don't know it was about slavery?
posted by Flunkie at 12:45 PM on December 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
Trump doesn't even know America had a civil war.
Ladies and gentlemen, "The River of Blood."
posted by box at 12:46 PM on December 28, 2023 [6 favorites]
Ladies and gentlemen, "The River of Blood."
posted by box at 12:46 PM on December 28, 2023 [6 favorites]
For the last decade or so, my cell number has found its way onto a political-themed SMS list. I have gotten impassioned pleas to register to vote, to vote in primaries, to vote in general elections, and to support liberal causes each election season. Amusingly, they have my name down as Beatrice (which would surprise my wife greatly).
I have sent STOP on several occasions and attempted to explain on others that I am not who they think I am, I am sympathetic to their cause but I do not need a nagbot, and to please stop messaging me. I have blocked a couple of the phone numbers, but others would occasionally leak through.
Over the last couple of weeks, Beatrice has received two impassioned texts asking 'her' to support and vote for Nikki Haley.
posted by delfin at 12:57 PM on December 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
I have sent STOP on several occasions and attempted to explain on others that I am not who they think I am, I am sympathetic to their cause but I do not need a nagbot, and to please stop messaging me. I have blocked a couple of the phone numbers, but others would occasionally leak through.
Over the last couple of weeks, Beatrice has received two impassioned texts asking 'her' to support and vote for Nikki Haley.
posted by delfin at 12:57 PM on December 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
Watching the video of Haley from a distance, it's clearly that she thinks she has to parrot some particular cultural stuff - fully divorced from reality.
It's possible to answer "What was the Civil War about?" with other than "slavery." ...you'd be wrong, of course, but you can say it. I used to make a joke about how the gun attitude in the US was like a drunk driver trying different cars in order to fix the problem of crashing when they get drunk and drive - this is the same beast. The root cause of the Civil War was slavery, call it whatever you want (a fight for freedoms blah blah blah but as stated above, the freedoms in question were about having slaves.)
If we are taking bets, nothing will happen to Haley - she gets a pass for pointing out the obvious truth ("It was slavery") because the first time she did not. People who don't want to hear the former, just assume it was insincere.
posted by From Bklyn at 1:01 PM on December 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
It's possible to answer "What was the Civil War about?" with other than "slavery." ...you'd be wrong, of course, but you can say it. I used to make a joke about how the gun attitude in the US was like a drunk driver trying different cars in order to fix the problem of crashing when they get drunk and drive - this is the same beast. The root cause of the Civil War was slavery, call it whatever you want (a fight for freedoms blah blah blah but as stated above, the freedoms in question were about having slaves.)
If we are taking bets, nothing will happen to Haley - she gets a pass for pointing out the obvious truth ("It was slavery") because the first time she did not. People who don't want to hear the former, just assume it was insincere.
posted by From Bklyn at 1:01 PM on December 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
His "answer" would take over 10 minutes of rambling
You left out the part where he would state a commonly-known historical fact with some incredulity, then act as if it was something very few people knew.
posted by grubi at 1:17 PM on December 28, 2023 [8 favorites]
You left out the part where he would state a commonly-known historical fact with some incredulity, then act as if it was something very few people knew.
posted by grubi at 1:17 PM on December 28, 2023 [8 favorites]
I can't imagine being a POC and wanting political power so badly that I would be willing to pander to white racists, especially in the current environment.
posted by The Card Cheat at 1:32 PM on December 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by The Card Cheat at 1:32 PM on December 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
You left out the part where he would state a commonly-known historical fact with some incredulity, then act as if it was something very few people knew.I can't help but imagine "Not many people know we had a civil war in this country".
posted by Flunkie at 1:32 PM on December 28, 2023 [10 favorites]
She apparently claimed the questioner was a plant, sent by the Biden campaign.
For how royally ridiculous her answer was I'd sooner buy that the answerer was a plant.
posted by dobbs at 1:39 PM on December 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
For how royally ridiculous her answer was I'd sooner buy that the answerer was a plant.
posted by dobbs at 1:39 PM on December 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
It was about the North trying to prevent slaves from learning trades like blacksmithing.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 1:43 PM on December 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 1:43 PM on December 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
Your Heritage is Hate
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 2:28 PM on December 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 2:28 PM on December 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
In a way, it was about states rights: the Confederacy hated them. The northern states were refusing to enforce the fugitive slave act, defying the federal government. That's one of the big things that they harp on about in the speeches, the "betrayal" of the south by the north by allowing escaped human beings to be free.
So yes, slavery at the root, of course. But as a result of that, the states that later became the Confederacy also hated states rights.
posted by Hactar at 3:01 PM on December 28, 2023 [11 favorites]
So yes, slavery at the root, of course. But as a result of that, the states that later became the Confederacy also hated states rights.
posted by Hactar at 3:01 PM on December 28, 2023 [11 favorites]
> Who asked the question? They have my thanks.
He says something like "I'm not running for president" (when she tries to turn the question back to him) and someone else says something like "That's a good thing," which makes me wonder if he was known to other people in the audience.
posted by The corpse in the library at 3:05 PM on December 28, 2023
He says something like "I'm not running for president" (when she tries to turn the question back to him) and someone else says something like "That's a good thing," which makes me wonder if he was known to other people in the audience.
posted by The corpse in the library at 3:05 PM on December 28, 2023
Ok, am I the only one who read the "It's possible to answer 'What was the Civil War about?' with other than 'slavery.'" comment as clearly saying that other answers, even given charitable interpretation, are indeed wrong and the answer is clearly slavery? I keep seeing responses to it as if it's carrying water for bigots or something, it seems very obviously not that to me.
posted by jason_steakums at 3:54 PM on December 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by jason_steakums at 3:54 PM on December 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
As for Haley, and really all the others, are they doing this as practice for 2028? Or just in case Trump has an aneurism or something so he can't be the nominee on account of being dead?
Yes.
Who asked the question?
Of course I can't find it now but at least 1 semi-credible source found the guy and he claimed he was a Haley supporter planning on voting for her. Beats me.
But you don't need to be a "Biden plant" (for fuck's sake, persecution fetish much?) to see some entertainment value in pitching a live verbal hand grenade at a candidate.
posted by soundguy99 at 4:19 PM on December 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
Yes.
Who asked the question?
Of course I can't find it now but at least 1 semi-credible source found the guy and he claimed he was a Haley supporter planning on voting for her. Beats me.
But you don't need to be a "Biden plant" (for fuck's sake, persecution fetish much?) to see some entertainment value in pitching a live verbal hand grenade at a candidate.
posted by soundguy99 at 4:19 PM on December 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
Montgomery County, MD
South of the Mason-Dixon Line, though
posted by eviemath at 4:21 PM on December 28, 2023
South of the Mason-Dixon Line, though
posted by eviemath at 4:21 PM on December 28, 2023
"Actual Republican nominee" -- after Colorado, now: Trump removed from Maine primary ballot by secretary of state (WaPo). Maine is the second state to block the former president from running again under a part of the Constitution that prevents insurrectionists from holding office. The decision is sure to be appealed.
posted by Iris Gambol at 4:27 PM on December 28, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by Iris Gambol at 4:27 PM on December 28, 2023 [11 favorites]
Michael Harriot on xitter : "Y'all wanna hear the TRUE story of Nikki Haley? A Thread" (it's a nitter link)
posted by revmitcz at 4:44 PM on December 28, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by revmitcz at 4:44 PM on December 28, 2023 [11 favorites]
Nikki Haley is a craven asshole... and she's probably the *most* presentable candidate the Republicans have.
posted by orange swan at 5:18 PM on December 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by orange swan at 5:18 PM on December 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
The episode in which Nikki Haley learns the hard way what Trump knows instinctively: never back down, never admit a mistake, and when confronted, attack. This is the behavior the GOP base rewards. There's no room for thought or nuance; these things are for the weak. Remember when Donald Trump wanted to nuke a hurricane?
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 5:29 PM on December 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 5:29 PM on December 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
The Civil War was a battle against big government and the Constitutional rights of citizens to be free from oppression. The good side won with the help of God.
posted by JJ86 at 5:33 PM on December 28, 2023
posted by JJ86 at 5:33 PM on December 28, 2023
From the second link, before Haley added the "clarification":
posted by ricochet biscuit at 5:38 PM on December 28, 2023 [16 favorites]
After the event, some attendees told The Post that they thought Haley answered the question to the best of her abilityThat's kind of what we are concerned about.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 5:38 PM on December 28, 2023 [16 favorites]
The Libertarian Party of NH has attempted to join the discourse by posting an infographic asking who was the greater villain, Abraham Lincoln or Osama bin Laden?
posted by peeedro at 5:49 PM on December 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by peeedro at 5:49 PM on December 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
From well-known writer/internet mensch John Green:
www.wasthecivilwaraboutslavery.com
posted by gwint at 5:52 PM on December 28, 2023 [15 favorites]
www.wasthecivilwaraboutslavery.com
posted by gwint at 5:52 PM on December 28, 2023 [15 favorites]
I’m the same age as her and if you want to understand how the civil war was taught to my generation go and watch Ken Burns civil war documentary. Episode 1 does talk about slavery as a cause of the war but tends to obfuscate things a bit with talk of states rights and the whole lost cause myth as a motivating factor for why people fought.
posted by interogative mood at 6:24 PM on December 28, 2023
posted by interogative mood at 6:24 PM on December 28, 2023
Civil War
'Aftermath'
"the third era comes higher and holier, duties in life are to be assumed. a new world is opening before his, how earnestly does he look, he looks far away into the coming time, what beautiful visions arise. the heart trembles with the excess of joy. his may be the life time of happiness as serene as easy, the most important of all. the pilgrimage is at an end and obeying the voice which __come up__ the third tempted but conquered spirit is to withdraw itself peacefully from its earthly Tabernacle in the sun upward to Mansion not made of hands and they're to dwell with God"
-Betsy Ann Kelly, April 19th, 1867. letter to Garrison Moore.
posted by clavdivs at 6:31 PM on December 28, 2023
'Aftermath'
"the third era comes higher and holier, duties in life are to be assumed. a new world is opening before his, how earnestly does he look, he looks far away into the coming time, what beautiful visions arise. the heart trembles with the excess of joy. his may be the life time of happiness as serene as easy, the most important of all. the pilgrimage is at an end and obeying the voice which __come up__ the third tempted but conquered spirit is to withdraw itself peacefully from its earthly Tabernacle in the sun upward to Mansion not made of hands and they're to dwell with God"
-Betsy Ann Kelly, April 19th, 1867. letter to Garrison Moore.
posted by clavdivs at 6:31 PM on December 28, 2023
number of words before slavery is directly referenced in their declaration of causes:
What is this supposed to mean? The US Declaration of Independence takes 315 words to mention the King. So what?
Most Texans, including progressive-minded ones, don't really understand this.
My favourite fact that surprises Texans is that a) the Oklahoma panhandle used to be part of Texas and b) Texas gave it up so the could be admitted to the union as a slave state.
posted by Mitheral at 7:12 PM on December 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
What is this supposed to mean? The US Declaration of Independence takes 315 words to mention the King. So what?
Most Texans, including progressive-minded ones, don't really understand this.
My favourite fact that surprises Texans is that a) the Oklahoma panhandle used to be part of Texas and b) Texas gave it up so the could be admitted to the union as a slave state.
posted by Mitheral at 7:12 PM on December 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
Well, if the Biden campaign weren't sending plants out to ask basic moral questions of the Republican nominees before, they sure are now.
posted by MrVisible at 7:20 PM on December 28, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by MrVisible at 7:20 PM on December 28, 2023 [10 favorites]
gave it up so the could be admitted to the union as a slave state.
Holy shit, well, that and that I should know that.
Michigan had to invade Ohio to get in the Union.
posted by clavdivs at 7:41 PM on December 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
Holy shit, well, that and that I should know that.
Michigan had to invade Ohio to get in the Union.
posted by clavdivs at 7:41 PM on December 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
As the old saying goes (when turned bass ackwards) 'Ignorance is loss'......... she lost me...
posted by IndelibleUnderpants at 9:07 PM on December 28, 2023
posted by IndelibleUnderpants at 9:07 PM on December 28, 2023
Of course, the Civil War was about slavery. We know that. That’s unquestioned. Always the case. We know the Civil War was about slavery,” Haley said at a town hall in North Conway. “But it was also more than that. It was about the freedoms of every individual.
I honestly think she's saying it was about the freedom of every individual slave owner. So, I guess from that horrid point of view she's admitting it was about slavery.
posted by eye of newt at 9:30 PM on December 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
I honestly think she's saying it was about the freedom of every individual slave owner. So, I guess from that horrid point of view she's admitting it was about slavery.
posted by eye of newt at 9:30 PM on December 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
"What was the cause of the Civil War?"
"Actually, there were numerous causes. Aside from the obvious schism between abolitionists and anti-abolitionists, economic factors, both domestic and international—"
"Hey! Hey! Just say slavery."
posted by kirkaracha at 4:19 AM on December 29, 2023 [7 favorites]
"Actually, there were numerous causes. Aside from the obvious schism between abolitionists and anti-abolitionists, economic factors, both domestic and international—"
"Hey! Hey! Just say slavery."
posted by kirkaracha at 4:19 AM on December 29, 2023 [7 favorites]
Also of note is the Confederacy's Constitution, which is to a large extent essentially the same as the US Constitution, often word-for-word for large swaths at a time. The only real significant differences (other than, like, "Confederate" instead of "United") are all about slavery.
Their "states' rights" constitution also required states to allow slavery and forbade ending it.
Their "states' rights" constitution also required states to allow slavery and forbade ending it.
No bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law denying or impairing the right of property in negro slaves shall be passed.posted by kirkaracha at 4:34 AM on December 29, 2023 [6 favorites]
...
The Confederate States may acquire new territory; and Congress shall have power to legislate and provide governments for the inhabitants of all territory belonging to the Confederate States, lying without the limits of the several Sates; and may permit them, at such times, and in such manner as it may by law provide, to form States to be admitted into the Confederacy. In all such territory the institution of negro slavery, as it now exists in the Confederate States, shall be recognized and protected be Congress and by the Territorial government; and the inhabitants of the several Confederate States and Territories shall have the right to take to such Territory any slaves lawfully held by them in any of the States or Territories of the Confederate States.
Every fucker in that audience that was grinning knew it wouldn't matter what her answer was, they'd go right along with it, along with the rest of the Republicans looking for a substitute for Trump, if he gets found guilty and has to go to jail.
Republicans are cynical to run a woman candidate for the highest office when busy taking away her rights and those of other women across the country.
And Haley is cynical to run as standard-bearer for a party made up of people who hate her for both being a woman and not being white.
The mainstream media is actively poisoning public discourse by insinuating criticism of her along the line of her political ideology, affiliation, and her association with white supremacy (as demonstrated here in an unspoken defense of slavery) is misogyny. As was done only the other day in the Washington Post.
Get ready for more of Fascist Republicanism trying to sell secondhand goods of this ilk, if their Trump product doesn't work out.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 7:02 AM on December 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
Republicans are cynical to run a woman candidate for the highest office when busy taking away her rights and those of other women across the country.
And Haley is cynical to run as standard-bearer for a party made up of people who hate her for both being a woman and not being white.
The mainstream media is actively poisoning public discourse by insinuating criticism of her along the line of her political ideology, affiliation, and her association with white supremacy (as demonstrated here in an unspoken defense of slavery) is misogyny. As was done only the other day in the Washington Post.
Get ready for more of Fascist Republicanism trying to sell secondhand goods of this ilk, if their Trump product doesn't work out.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 7:02 AM on December 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
@McCormackJohn:
3 views of what caused the Civil War:posted by tonycpsu at 7:27 AM on December 29, 2023 [12 favorites]
Uneducated: Slavery
Semi-educated: Complex social/economic/political phenomena.
Expert: Slavery
The woman in the front row turned her Nikki Haley sign upside down to silently say “WTAF?”.
posted by bendy at 2:12 PM on December 29, 2023
posted by bendy at 2:12 PM on December 29, 2023
>number of words before slavery is directly referenced in their declaration of causes:
What is this supposed to mean?
Yeah, I'm not too thrilled with it as a metric either which is why I posted the second message that spelled it out clearly.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 2:16 PM on December 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
What is this supposed to mean?
Yeah, I'm not too thrilled with it as a metric either which is why I posted the second message that spelled it out clearly.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 2:16 PM on December 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
States' rights to do what ?
Own human beings like they were Pokemon cards but treat them much worse.
Actually, here's the funny thing: the most appropriate lens through which "states' rights" can be seen as a cause of the Civil War is the exact opposite of the way those who invoke the term mean it.
'Cause, when you get right down to it, the South could basically triage their concerns into three specific categories:
So how did "states' rights" become the polite way of saying "treating black people as inferior"? I'm relatively certain (and I feel there should probably be a scholarly source on this in particular) that it came into vogue during the 20th-century civil rights struggle and was then anachronistically grafted back onto the Civil War. Because the major actions there (Brown v. Board of Education, the Civil Rights Act, etc.) were federal mandates which were resisted in the South (e.g. George Wallace and his ilk), so when you try to find a way to describe that sort of pushback that doesn't make it sound like pure rebellion, you end up at "states' rights". And then you pretend that phrase described every act of Southern resistance, and, whoop, there you are, calling "states' rights" a cause of the Civil War.
The tl;dr: anyone who says "states rights" isn't talking about the 1850s, they're talking about the 1960s.
posted by jackbishop at 12:21 PM on December 30, 2023 [12 favorites]
Own human beings like they were Pokemon cards but treat them much worse.
Actually, here's the funny thing: the most appropriate lens through which "states' rights" can be seen as a cause of the Civil War is the exact opposite of the way those who invoke the term mean it.
'Cause, when you get right down to it, the South could basically triage their concerns into three specific categories:
- Short-term: the raid at Harpers Ferry and the Northern pushback against the Fugitive Slave Law and Dred Scott decisions.
- Medium-term: the fact that the western territories were economically unsuited to slavery and would eventually become free states.
- Long-term: the notion that eventually abolitionism would become popular enough that free-state politicians would spend political capital making it the law of the land.
So how did "states' rights" become the polite way of saying "treating black people as inferior"? I'm relatively certain (and I feel there should probably be a scholarly source on this in particular) that it came into vogue during the 20th-century civil rights struggle and was then anachronistically grafted back onto the Civil War. Because the major actions there (Brown v. Board of Education, the Civil Rights Act, etc.) were federal mandates which were resisted in the South (e.g. George Wallace and his ilk), so when you try to find a way to describe that sort of pushback that doesn't make it sound like pure rebellion, you end up at "states' rights". And then you pretend that phrase described every act of Southern resistance, and, whoop, there you are, calling "states' rights" a cause of the Civil War.
The tl;dr: anyone who says "states rights" isn't talking about the 1850s, they're talking about the 1960s.
posted by jackbishop at 12:21 PM on December 30, 2023 [12 favorites]
Nikki Haley Really Just Used the “Black Friends” Card to Defend Herself
posted by peeedro at 8:26 AM on January 6
posted by peeedro at 8:26 AM on January 6
She really said this:
posted by Nelson at 11:22 AM on January 6 [3 favorites]
I knew half of South Carolinians saw the Confederate flag as heritage and tradition. The other half of South Carolinians saw it as slavery and hate. My job wasn’t to judge either side ... a leader doesn’t decide who’s right.Just... what?
posted by Nelson at 11:22 AM on January 6 [3 favorites]
Some South Carolinians think we should be allowed to eat people. Others think we should not. As a leader, my job is to form consensus: We should only be allowed to eat people from certain legislature-approved voting districts.
posted by Flunkie at 1:12 PM on January 10 [1 favorite]
posted by Flunkie at 1:12 PM on January 10 [1 favorite]
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posted by grubi at 7:58 AM on December 28, 2023 [15 favorites]