Cheap, good, far away.
January 13, 2024 6:42 PM Subscribe
The Cheapest Places to Live in 2024. "By moving from where you are to where you could be, it’s easy to cut your monthly rent in half (or double your apartment space), cut your healthcare costs drastically if you’re American, eat out more, and have more fun. You’ll probably discover some positive side effects like eating more fruit and vegetables (because they’re so cheap), getting more exercise (because many foreign cities are more suited to pedestrians), and dialing back your stress (because people aren’t in such a hurry all the time)."
I wish I could look at these kinds of lists and not wonder how they are like to live in as a woman on my own. Or how they are like to live in when my very low income in the USA is a great deal more than any of the locals could dream of making, so it would be worse gentrification than living in my moderately tough MidAtlantic city neighborhood.
posted by Peach at 6:52 PM on January 13 [38 favorites]
posted by Peach at 6:52 PM on January 13 [38 favorites]
It's weird that the author doesn't mention crime at all. I'm sure Ecuador is cheap but have you seen the news?
posted by simmering octagon at 7:29 PM on January 13 [5 favorites]
posted by simmering octagon at 7:29 PM on January 13 [5 favorites]
It's weird that the author doesn't mention crime at all.
There's a whole host of potential issues that are ignored or hand-waved away, including the advice to skip the digital nomad visas and just live on a tourist visa. You're unlikely to get caught, but working on your tourist visa is unlikely to be legal.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:42 PM on January 13 [15 favorites]
There's a whole host of potential issues that are ignored or hand-waved away, including the advice to skip the digital nomad visas and just live on a tourist visa. You're unlikely to get caught, but working on your tourist visa is unlikely to be legal.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:42 PM on January 13 [15 favorites]
You're unlikely to get caught, but working on your tourist visa is unlikely to be legal.
Best case for a digital nomad is that you’re not working for a company in the country you’re in. For a long time I didn’t have the right to work in Mexico for a Mexican corporation but there was no restriction at all on me consulting for U.S. firms.
You’re very right about him glossing over safety issues though. There are islands of safety most places but you need to do your research carefully.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 8:06 PM on January 13 [3 favorites]
Best case for a digital nomad is that you’re not working for a company in the country you’re in. For a long time I didn’t have the right to work in Mexico for a Mexican corporation but there was no restriction at all on me consulting for U.S. firms.
You’re very right about him glossing over safety issues though. There are islands of safety most places but you need to do your research carefully.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 8:06 PM on January 13 [3 favorites]
restriction at all on me consulting for U.S. firms.
(to clarify, that means remote consulting for a company in the U.S.)
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 8:21 PM on January 13
(to clarify, that means remote consulting for a company in the U.S.)
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 8:21 PM on January 13
I just can't take seriously or charitably articles with framing that refers to migrants or immigrants as "expats."
posted by meehawl at 8:46 PM on January 13 [26 favorites]
posted by meehawl at 8:46 PM on January 13 [26 favorites]
I just can't take seriously or charitably articles with framing that refers to migrants or immigrants as "expats."
What is the word for people who don’t want to belong to any country?
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 8:54 PM on January 13
What is the word for people who don’t want to belong to any country?
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 8:54 PM on January 13
What is the word for people who don’t want to belong to any country?
One version is "stateless"
...it's something you definitely don't want applied to you, if you can avoid it. Ask the Rohingya. Or the Palestinians.
posted by aramaic at 9:22 PM on January 13 [14 favorites]
One version is "stateless"
...it's something you definitely don't want applied to you, if you can avoid it. Ask the Rohingya. Or the Palestinians.
posted by aramaic at 9:22 PM on January 13 [14 favorites]
t's weird that the author doesn't mention crime at all.
Or whether you're getting money as a "digital nomad" or you're trying to get a job IN the place you've just moved to, and how that impacts things.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:30 PM on January 13 [4 favorites]
Or whether you're getting money as a "digital nomad" or you're trying to get a job IN the place you've just moved to, and how that impacts things.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:30 PM on January 13 [4 favorites]
What is the word for people who don’t want to belong to any country?
Cosmopolitan, but only if you're willing to go to the trouble of becoming a Stoic philosopher.
posted by AdamCSnider at 9:33 PM on January 13 [4 favorites]
Cosmopolitan, but only if you're willing to go to the trouble of becoming a Stoic philosopher.
posted by AdamCSnider at 9:33 PM on January 13 [4 favorites]
Kind of think, like a lot of tourism, there is an element of privilege at work - it would be interesting to correlate 'Worlds Happiest Nation' with 'Cheapest Place to Live' for any overlap. The locals on this list often don't have the funds to go anywhere else (I guess they could go somewhere cheaper still to live, but I'm guessing their passport may not let them in). Antipodeans often do an 'OE' (overseas experience) and backpack around a place (often Europe) and maybe work somewhere (traditionally the UK) - expensive places; I suspect this is something a lot of people from Egypt are unable to do. After slumming it on an OE (often done after high-school or uni), people will return, settle down then some can get into the habit of holidaying in Bali/Indonesia or Samoa or Raro or Fiji or Thailand - places where the exchange rate will go far and you get to hang out on a resort with less of the penny-pinching of an OE (in fact it may even be cheaper to holiday overseas than locally as they have tailored their own tourism industry to make the most of overseas tourists - that can be the case in NZ).
If people take the extra step to live somewhere permanently, it would be fascinating to see the degree of assimilation - do people take on local work (get paid local wages) and the rent versus own (eg to what degree do people buy property (if foreigners can even buy property) and/or take up citizen-ship) or do they maintain the 'expat' lifestyle and hang out with others after a similar lifestyle (again, in the UK there were chains of bars catering to Kiwis, Aussies & South Africans - travel all that way just to hang-out with people from home). Otherwise there is always the back-up plan of going home if things go pear-shaped (an option not open to locals - they can't easily up-stakes and leave).
On the other hand, travel and living somewhere else broadens the mind and peoples horizons and I'm sure the majority of the people make a positive impact wherever they choose to live.
posted by phigmov at 9:33 PM on January 13 [7 favorites]
If people take the extra step to live somewhere permanently, it would be fascinating to see the degree of assimilation - do people take on local work (get paid local wages) and the rent versus own (eg to what degree do people buy property (if foreigners can even buy property) and/or take up citizen-ship) or do they maintain the 'expat' lifestyle and hang out with others after a similar lifestyle (again, in the UK there were chains of bars catering to Kiwis, Aussies & South Africans - travel all that way just to hang-out with people from home). Otherwise there is always the back-up plan of going home if things go pear-shaped (an option not open to locals - they can't easily up-stakes and leave).
On the other hand, travel and living somewhere else broadens the mind and peoples horizons and I'm sure the majority of the people make a positive impact wherever they choose to live.
posted by phigmov at 9:33 PM on January 13 [7 favorites]
>What is the word for people who don’t want to belong to any country?
One version is "stateless"
I think that’s the world for people who actually don’t belong to any country, which countries make an incredibly painful situation. You have to be someone’s property to live in this world.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 9:46 PM on January 13 [5 favorites]
One version is "stateless"
I think that’s the world for people who actually don’t belong to any country, which countries make an incredibly painful situation. You have to be someone’s property to live in this world.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 9:46 PM on January 13 [5 favorites]
there is an element of privilege at work
Oh, it’s one hundred percent privilege. He gives that up when he mentions exchange rates — living in these countries is only ‘cheap’ if you have the right to work in an economically stronger one.
I don’t know if expats moving into a poorer country helps or hurts. I think the overall numbers are small enough that it doesn’t make a big difference at a country level, but local economies can definitely be affected by a massive influx.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 10:26 PM on January 13 [6 favorites]
Oh, it’s one hundred percent privilege. He gives that up when he mentions exchange rates — living in these countries is only ‘cheap’ if you have the right to work in an economically stronger one.
I don’t know if expats moving into a poorer country helps or hurts. I think the overall numbers are small enough that it doesn’t make a big difference at a country level, but local economies can definitely be affected by a massive influx.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 10:26 PM on January 13 [6 favorites]
Add another grand or two and you’ll be leading a comfortable upper-middle-class life with a nice apartment or house, some domestic help, and whatever you want to eat and drink, going out regularly.
You suddenly become one of the elites.
For now, Argentina is still stuck in one of its worst times ever financially, which is saying a lot, but that’s a turn of good fortune for you if you can come in with cash on vacation or move there while earning dollars, pounds, or euros you can convert into stacks of Argentine pesos. (And you will receive stacks, so bring a purse, daypack, or fanny pack.)
… The country seems to prefer a natural state of crisis and is prone to shooting itself in the foot with fiscal policy, so take advantage of the mess to live a half-price life.
On the finance side, their pain has been our gain: one dollar fetched 2 Egyptian pounds at the beginning of 2013. As we enter 2024, one dollar gets you 31 pounds. The only countries that have fared worse are Turkey and Argentina.
Their loss, your gain! Be the rich! STACKS! Trickle-down! Evade local labor and tax law! And of course, have a local woman cook and scrub your toilets, because you can finally afford it, using currency arbitrage!
Ghoulish.
posted by rrrrrrrrrt at 10:51 PM on January 13 [55 favorites]
You suddenly become one of the elites.
For now, Argentina is still stuck in one of its worst times ever financially, which is saying a lot, but that’s a turn of good fortune for you if you can come in with cash on vacation or move there while earning dollars, pounds, or euros you can convert into stacks of Argentine pesos. (And you will receive stacks, so bring a purse, daypack, or fanny pack.)
… The country seems to prefer a natural state of crisis and is prone to shooting itself in the foot with fiscal policy, so take advantage of the mess to live a half-price life.
On the finance side, their pain has been our gain: one dollar fetched 2 Egyptian pounds at the beginning of 2013. As we enter 2024, one dollar gets you 31 pounds. The only countries that have fared worse are Turkey and Argentina.
Their loss, your gain! Be the rich! STACKS! Trickle-down! Evade local labor and tax law! And of course, have a local woman cook and scrub your toilets, because you can finally afford it, using currency arbitrage!
Ghoulish.
posted by rrrrrrrrrt at 10:51 PM on January 13 [55 favorites]
I don’t know if expats moving into a poorer country helps or hurts. I think the overall numbers are small enough that it doesn’t make a big difference at a country level, but local economies can definitely be affected by a massive influx.
Then probably it's best to pair this FPP with this FPP, that despite the tangent on Portugal in the comments, TFA is mainly about Colombia and Mexico.
posted by cendawanita at 12:34 AM on January 14 [2 favorites]
Then probably it's best to pair this FPP with this FPP, that despite the tangent on Portugal in the comments, TFA is mainly about Colombia and Mexico.
posted by cendawanita at 12:34 AM on January 14 [2 favorites]
This comment of mine in particular specifically identifies the genre of writing of this FPP
posted by cendawanita at 12:36 AM on January 14 [3 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 12:36 AM on January 14 [3 favorites]
Finally, I'm kidding (of course), but: don't come to Malaysia. It's terrible here. No one smiles and everything is expensive. Horrible, just dreadful. *unable to append sarcasm tag due to irony poisoning*
posted by cendawanita at 12:43 AM on January 14 [6 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 12:43 AM on January 14 [6 favorites]
We can look objectively at who has the cheapest cost of living overall though, what the average person spends who lives there.
An average is not very useful for this, many of these countries have millions living on $2 per day and then a small rich elite living a western lifestyle. I'm guessing he does not want the lifestyle of an 'average' indian.
posted by Lanark at 2:25 AM on January 14 [6 favorites]
An average is not very useful for this, many of these countries have millions living on $2 per day and then a small rich elite living a western lifestyle. I'm guessing he does not want the lifestyle of an 'average' indian.
posted by Lanark at 2:25 AM on January 14 [6 favorites]
There's a whole host of potential issues that are ignored or hand-waved away, including the advice to skip the digital nomad visas and just live on a tourist visa. You're unlikely to get caught, but working on your tourist visa is unlikely to be legal.
Seriously, the sense of entitlement is astounding. It's as if some people think that their country is the only one that cares about illegal immigration.
Trying to live in a place on a tourist visa in particular is putting your home on very thin ice. Sure, you might get away with it, even for years, until maybe one day there is a crackdown, or you're just unlucky, and the border official gives you extra scrutiny when you return home from visiting family or a business trip or actual tourism. Maybe they'll ask you about the return flight you don't have. Maybe they'll examine the dates on all of your passport stamps for your short trips out to refresh the tourist visa (or worse, that you didn't do that and overstayed!). What is likely to happen is that the border officer will look at you and say "No, you are not a tourist, you are trying to live here. I'm denying you entry." Because that is their job. You'll be put on a plane to the country where your home isn't, and you may even be permanently denied entry to the country where your home is.
posted by swr at 3:23 AM on January 14 [17 favorites]
Seriously, the sense of entitlement is astounding. It's as if some people think that their country is the only one that cares about illegal immigration.
Trying to live in a place on a tourist visa in particular is putting your home on very thin ice. Sure, you might get away with it, even for years, until maybe one day there is a crackdown, or you're just unlucky, and the border official gives you extra scrutiny when you return home from visiting family or a business trip or actual tourism. Maybe they'll ask you about the return flight you don't have. Maybe they'll examine the dates on all of your passport stamps for your short trips out to refresh the tourist visa (or worse, that you didn't do that and overstayed!). What is likely to happen is that the border officer will look at you and say "No, you are not a tourist, you are trying to live here. I'm denying you entry." Because that is their job. You'll be put on a plane to the country where your home isn't, and you may even be permanently denied entry to the country where your home is.
posted by swr at 3:23 AM on January 14 [17 favorites]
Coincidentally recommended by my yt algos (???): The RISE of Passport Bros - Conservatives who travel to find Trad wives
posted by cendawanita at 4:56 AM on January 14 [6 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 4:56 AM on January 14 [6 favorites]
You're unlikely to get caught, but working on your tourist visa is unlikely to be legal.
A lot of places created Remote Worker visas during the ongoing pandemic, such that as long as you're working remotely and not taking a job from a citizen you're welcome to stay a long time. It makes a lot of economic sense, because people like that tend to be affluent and are a pure benefit to the local economy.
This is not to say there aren't cultural implications, but still.
Edit: Got to this late, but yes, the tourist advice instead of the remote worker advice is bad and don't do that.
posted by mhoye at 5:34 AM on January 14 [3 favorites]
A lot of places created Remote Worker visas during the ongoing pandemic, such that as long as you're working remotely and not taking a job from a citizen you're welcome to stay a long time. It makes a lot of economic sense, because people like that tend to be affluent and are a pure benefit to the local economy.
This is not to say there aren't cultural implications, but still.
Edit: Got to this late, but yes, the tourist advice instead of the remote worker advice is bad and don't do that.
posted by mhoye at 5:34 AM on January 14 [3 favorites]
A lot of places created Remote Worker visas during the ongoing pandemic, such that as long as you're working remotely and not taking a job from a citizen you're welcome to stay a long time.
Most of them are more restrictive than that, and "long time" is defined in some countries as "three months at a go, so you have to do visa runs out and back into the country and they don't HAVE to let you back in" and for the few EU locations with digital nomad visas you need to check the fine print to see if they supersede Schengen regulations or if you still have to leave for 90 days after 90 days in-zone.
You have to really-really dig into the fine print if you are a W-2 employee in the US, as well, as most of these visas are meant for freelancers who pay to operate a small freelance business in the host country and pay the appropriate taxes. You also need to show proof of significant savings for most of them, and obtain health insurance coverage however that is defined in each country.
The W-2 thing is a big deal. If you are traditionally employed in the US and your employer has not gotten permission to operate in that country and is not paying into the required taxes and whatever other systems, they are on the hook for you working there even if they don't know. This is where a lot of wannabe digital nomads fuck up, and a lot of US employers ARE looking for the breadcrumbs that suggest employees are working outside the company's boundaries of operations.
So this idea of "By moving from where you are to where you could be" comes down to, as always, to "if you're independently wealthy."
posted by Lyn Never at 5:58 AM on January 14 [15 favorites]
Most of them are more restrictive than that, and "long time" is defined in some countries as "three months at a go, so you have to do visa runs out and back into the country and they don't HAVE to let you back in" and for the few EU locations with digital nomad visas you need to check the fine print to see if they supersede Schengen regulations or if you still have to leave for 90 days after 90 days in-zone.
You have to really-really dig into the fine print if you are a W-2 employee in the US, as well, as most of these visas are meant for freelancers who pay to operate a small freelance business in the host country and pay the appropriate taxes. You also need to show proof of significant savings for most of them, and obtain health insurance coverage however that is defined in each country.
The W-2 thing is a big deal. If you are traditionally employed in the US and your employer has not gotten permission to operate in that country and is not paying into the required taxes and whatever other systems, they are on the hook for you working there even if they don't know. This is where a lot of wannabe digital nomads fuck up, and a lot of US employers ARE looking for the breadcrumbs that suggest employees are working outside the company's boundaries of operations.
So this idea of "By moving from where you are to where you could be" comes down to, as always, to "if you're independently wealthy."
posted by Lyn Never at 5:58 AM on January 14 [15 favorites]
A lot of yikes here
Surprised that Costa Rica wasn't on the list, maybe it got gentrified by 2024
posted by eustatic at 6:36 AM on January 14 [3 favorites]
Surprised that Costa Rica wasn't on the list, maybe it got gentrified by 2024
posted by eustatic at 6:36 AM on January 14 [3 favorites]
I think that’s the world for people who actually don’t belong to any country, which countries make an incredibly painful situation. You have to be someone’s property to live in this world.
it’s amazing what the internet has to offer. For instance, today I learned that enjoying all the benefits of citizenship means that I am owned by something? The US federal government I guess? Maybe the state department? Maybe my state since they issue the birth certificate? Who knows.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:46 AM on January 14 [6 favorites]
it’s amazing what the internet has to offer. For instance, today I learned that enjoying all the benefits of citizenship means that I am owned by something? The US federal government I guess? Maybe the state department? Maybe my state since they issue the birth certificate? Who knows.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:46 AM on January 14 [6 favorites]
We ran out of places to gentrify in the US, so we went abroad to make things unaffordable for other people elsewhere…
posted by cybrcamper at 7:17 AM on January 14 [3 favorites]
posted by cybrcamper at 7:17 AM on January 14 [3 favorites]
The important thing is for the individual to move away and act independently and exclusively in only their own interest rather than, say, acting locally with people to change the structures and systems of financial inequality at home. Oh, and definitely work on a tourist visa, because we wouldn't want to have to reduce our spending freedom with pesky local taxes so that our destination country could afford to raise standards wherever we landed, eh?
God forbid we should want to use our agency to change society together when we can just use our privilege as a ticket for a permanent responsibility vacation. Is "parasite tourism" a term? It's one of a number I feel could apply here.
posted by onebuttonmonkey at 7:30 AM on January 14 [5 favorites]
God forbid we should want to use our agency to change society together when we can just use our privilege as a ticket for a permanent responsibility vacation. Is "parasite tourism" a term? It's one of a number I feel could apply here.
posted by onebuttonmonkey at 7:30 AM on January 14 [5 favorites]
cendawanita: “Coincidentally recommended by my yt algos (???): The RISE of Passport Bros - Conservatives who travel to find Trad wives ”I had seen that video and immediately thought of it — had it on my clipboard even — but briefly looking over the blog from the post, it seemed like bog standard travel advice and not what I would expect if they were one of those creeps.
posted by ob1quixote at 7:36 AM on January 14 [1 favorite]
I just can't take seriously or charitably articles with framing that refers to migrants or immigrants as "expats."
But the people the article is describing (or really, marketing to) are, or want to be, expats, not migrants or immigrants. The term expat is correctly descriptive for people from a wealthier country who intend to live and maybe work in a less-wealthy country for a time, longer than a tourist but without an intention of settling permanently (i.e., immigrating in any meaningful sense).
That said, the terms are all slippery and imprecise and don't always map well onto a given person's situation, and there are a gazillion exceptions and nuances.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:38 AM on January 14 [5 favorites]
But the people the article is describing (or really, marketing to) are, or want to be, expats, not migrants or immigrants. The term expat is correctly descriptive for people from a wealthier country who intend to live and maybe work in a less-wealthy country for a time, longer than a tourist but without an intention of settling permanently (i.e., immigrating in any meaningful sense).
That said, the terms are all slippery and imprecise and don't always map well onto a given person's situation, and there are a gazillion exceptions and nuances.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:38 AM on January 14 [5 favorites]
Not a single sub-saharan African country?
posted by divinitys.mortal.flesh at 7:47 AM on January 14 [1 favorite]
posted by divinitys.mortal.flesh at 7:47 AM on January 14 [1 favorite]
South Africa got mentioned in the text but wasn't on the numbered lists, I think.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:52 AM on January 14
posted by Dip Flash at 7:52 AM on January 14
The locals on this list often don't have the funds to go anywhere else (I guess they could go somewhere cheaper still to live, but I'm guessing their passport may not let them in).The exception to that is Bulgaria, which is an EU country. The article notes that real estate there is really cheap, because the country has been depopulated by people who have moved to other, richer EU countries to work. I don't know if that's any better, really. I guess at least you're not displacing anyone.
I recently stumbled onto an article about Plovdiv, Bulgaria, which is apparently a big location for digital nomads. I find the whole expat thing kind of icky, but it definitely sounds fascinating and like a place I would like to visit.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 8:53 AM on January 14
The term expat is correctly descriptive for people from a wealthier country who intend to live and maybe work in a less-wealthy country for a time
I prefer the term "scumbag".
posted by splitpeasoup at 9:04 AM on January 14
I prefer the term "scumbag".
posted by splitpeasoup at 9:04 AM on January 14
I mean, I guess modern expats aren't so bad, not quite as bad as the original Euro colonizers. Expats are merely selfish and privilege-blind, content to be parasites off hegemonic inequality and exploitation rather than the architects of it.
posted by splitpeasoup at 9:05 AM on January 14 [4 favorites]
posted by splitpeasoup at 9:05 AM on January 14 [4 favorites]
Ugh. The tone of that thing was repellent. I worked overseas for a number of years, and there were always 20-somethings around looking to profit from crippled economies, hyperinflation for the local currency while holding dollars, slave wages for the goods/services they bought/used, and everything else. COVID and fully remote work only exacerbated it. The contempt bordering on hatred that these "digital nomads" incur from local populations whose fixed and variable costs of life are jacked up by wandering white children is entirely justified.
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posted by the sobsister at 9:12 AM on January 14 [2 favorites]
[Edit: one line removed pending verification]
posted by the sobsister at 9:12 AM on January 14 [2 favorites]
it’s amazing what the internet has to offer. For instance, today I learned that enjoying all the benefits of citizenship means that I am owned by something? The US federal government I guess? Maybe the state department? Maybe my state since they issue the birth certificate? Who knows.
Allow me to introduce you to the Selective Service System.
All of those sweet benefits you are getting come with an agreement that you can be used as cannon fodder at the government’s convenience.
Don’t kid yourself. Your ownership of your time and body are entirely provisional.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 9:18 AM on January 14
Allow me to introduce you to the Selective Service System.
All of those sweet benefits you are getting come with an agreement that you can be used as cannon fodder at the government’s convenience.
Don’t kid yourself. Your ownership of your time and body are entirely provisional.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 9:18 AM on January 14
I'm spending a year dead for tax purposes.
posted by the antecedent of that pronoun at 9:19 AM on January 14 [11 favorites]
posted by the antecedent of that pronoun at 9:19 AM on January 14 [11 favorites]
Tell Me No Lies, your American myopia is showing.
posted by sagc at 9:21 AM on January 14 [3 favorites]
posted by sagc at 9:21 AM on January 14 [3 favorites]
I mean, I guess modern expats aren't so bad, not quite as bad as the original Euro colonizers. Expats are merely selfish and privilege-blind, content to be parasites off hegemonic inequality and exploitation rather than the architects of it.
Saying that everyone should stay home and not spend time living in other countries, if they want to and it is legal, is certainly a perspective, but it's not one that I can buy into.
posted by Dip Flash at 9:29 AM on January 14 [9 favorites]
Saying that everyone should stay home and not spend time living in other countries, if they want to and it is legal, is certainly a perspective, but it's not one that I can buy into.
posted by Dip Flash at 9:29 AM on January 14 [9 favorites]
Where was all this smoke for the black expat article? If I see how the efforts to change society together are panning out during my lifetime as a working person and leave to use my (real) American privileges and gentrify a neighborhood in the developing world with remote wages, am I exempt from being called a parasite because my position in America isn't near the apex of our domestic caste system?
posted by Selena777 at 9:58 AM on January 14 [3 favorites]
posted by Selena777 at 9:58 AM on January 14 [3 favorites]
I would like to make sure we’re applying the same judgements to people leaving expensive parts of the U.S. for cheaper ones. Or is the whole “those poor downtrodden foreigners” thing just us being patronizing to people because we don’t consider them the same as us.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 10:05 AM on January 14 [1 favorite]
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 10:05 AM on January 14 [1 favorite]
The RISE of Passport Bros - Conservatives who travel to find Trad wives
Oh god what morbid curiosity led me to click on that and skim through the video. It is exactly as bad as the title suggests. BRB, need to burn my YouTube account to the ground
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 10:28 AM on January 14 [1 favorite]
Oh god what morbid curiosity led me to click on that and skim through the video. It is exactly as bad as the title suggests. BRB, need to burn my YouTube account to the ground
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 10:28 AM on January 14 [1 favorite]
Saying that everyone should stay home and not spend time living in other countries, if they want to and it is legal, is certainly a perspective, but it's not one that I can buy into.
I think there is a distinction to be made between choosing to live in a new place as an immigrant, actually participating in the life and community of your new home, and picking an impoverished community to live near so you can exploit them for cheap labor. The people following the advice in this article are looking to do the latter, and it is worth condemning, whether it is happening across a border or not.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 10:29 AM on January 14 [8 favorites]
I think there is a distinction to be made between choosing to live in a new place as an immigrant, actually participating in the life and community of your new home, and picking an impoverished community to live near so you can exploit them for cheap labor. The people following the advice in this article are looking to do the latter, and it is worth condemning, whether it is happening across a border or not.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 10:29 AM on January 14 [8 favorites]
Expats are merely selfish and privilege-blind, content to be parasites off hegemonic inequality and exploitation rather than the architects of it
That is a...take, I guess. I've known a fair share of expats, both directly and indirectly, and that doesn't track with any of their lived experiences. In particular, I know a family who moved to Vietnam and love it there. They were struggling to make ends meet in the US, ran some calculations, and made the choice that living as middle class in an Asian country was better than living in poverty in America. I don't blame them.
Yes, they had the privilege to immigrate, but they knew that and felt lucky. Having a privilege means you get an option that isn't afforded other people--it doesn't mean you're a terrible person. I don't get calling someone living under global capitalism "selfish" for prioritizing their quality of life or considering their economic realities. Not everyone can be a nation-changing revolutionary.
posted by lock robster at 10:39 AM on January 14 [8 favorites]
That is a...take, I guess. I've known a fair share of expats, both directly and indirectly, and that doesn't track with any of their lived experiences. In particular, I know a family who moved to Vietnam and love it there. They were struggling to make ends meet in the US, ran some calculations, and made the choice that living as middle class in an Asian country was better than living in poverty in America. I don't blame them.
Yes, they had the privilege to immigrate, but they knew that and felt lucky. Having a privilege means you get an option that isn't afforded other people--it doesn't mean you're a terrible person. I don't get calling someone living under global capitalism "selfish" for prioritizing their quality of life or considering their economic realities. Not everyone can be a nation-changing revolutionary.
posted by lock robster at 10:39 AM on January 14 [8 favorites]
Also, agree that TFA has excessive bro energy.
posted by lock robster at 10:44 AM on January 14 [1 favorite]
posted by lock robster at 10:44 AM on January 14 [1 favorite]
I see a lot of blind spots in the comments here.
Nearly all the underdeveloped, unsafe places in the world are underdeveloped and unsafe today precisely because of centuries of colonialism and imperialism shaping the globe and the permanent damage they have inflicted. This pretty much exactly tracks the top places on this list: my native India, Mexico, Malaysia, the Philippines, etc etc.
Local to this (American) continent: Mexico, Guatemala, El Salvador are places that have been ravaged by the CIA and American military support for exploitative US corporate behemoths like United Fruit and the ruthless crushing of democratic uprisings by any means.
Many people from these countries that have been wrecked by colonialist and imperialist forces are desperately trying to escape these conditions. In the US, this means refugees from the same countries mentioned above: Mexico, Guatemala, El Salvador. We stand in the way of these desperate people who are desperate because of us, forcing women and children to die of hunger, thirst, cold as they struggle against the walls we have erected.
Island countries show clearly the devastation of local economies, ecology, and quality of life and their being fully subordained to serve the interests of White colonial masters.
Meanwhile we happily talk of traveling or even settling in any country we choose without a thought for the people who already live there except to work as our servants and cooks.
Any time you see a power imbalance, you should question why it exists instead of exploiting it for your selfish gain.
posted by splitpeasoup at 11:39 AM on January 14 [12 favorites]
Nearly all the underdeveloped, unsafe places in the world are underdeveloped and unsafe today precisely because of centuries of colonialism and imperialism shaping the globe and the permanent damage they have inflicted. This pretty much exactly tracks the top places on this list: my native India, Mexico, Malaysia, the Philippines, etc etc.
Local to this (American) continent: Mexico, Guatemala, El Salvador are places that have been ravaged by the CIA and American military support for exploitative US corporate behemoths like United Fruit and the ruthless crushing of democratic uprisings by any means.
Many people from these countries that have been wrecked by colonialist and imperialist forces are desperately trying to escape these conditions. In the US, this means refugees from the same countries mentioned above: Mexico, Guatemala, El Salvador. We stand in the way of these desperate people who are desperate because of us, forcing women and children to die of hunger, thirst, cold as they struggle against the walls we have erected.
Island countries show clearly the devastation of local economies, ecology, and quality of life and their being fully subordained to serve the interests of White colonial masters.
Meanwhile we happily talk of traveling or even settling in any country we choose without a thought for the people who already live there except to work as our servants and cooks.
Any time you see a power imbalance, you should question why it exists instead of exploiting it for your selfish gain.
posted by splitpeasoup at 11:39 AM on January 14 [12 favorites]
I would like to make sure we’re applying the same judgements to people leaving expensive parts of the U.S. for cheaper ones. Or is the whole “those poor downtrodden foreigners” thing just us being patronizing to people because we don’t consider them the same as us.
I'm not applying the same judgement because I don't see them as comparable.
As presented in the article, the OP is about taking your disproportionate spending power away, avoiding local employment tax, and taking where you are going for what you can get because you have the financial privilege to do so, stuff the system that gave you that wealth, and hurray for keeping there cheap for you, not those who live there and whose salary does not compare. And also screw anyone at home who could do with the greater tax contributions of those better off than them, or the collective action that would improve everyone's lives if recognised instead of the rampant Me-ism of individuals with no regard beyond themselves.
Not everyone who emigrates has this attitude, aim or motivation, but the link is implicitly Those People.
In terms of migrating within countries or regions, there's obviously nuance. It's worth calling out again the impact of residents who are priced out of areas and displaced due to gentrification - they also can't afford to move to somewhere abroad on a tourist visa, typically, but are shunted away to the next rung down and who cares by gentrification wherever it occurs. Admittedly gentrifiers have their own financial and social pressures, and are not necessarily aiming to exploit a new area even if the impact is that displacement anyway, which it almost always is.
I'm in Britain, so I can't comment on states and local versus federal taxation. But generalising, moving somewhere cheaper within your own country without explicitly gentrifying isn't opting out of the US system for your own advantage which is what's being judged. One does always import one's own attitude, though, so someone with little regard for anything other than what they can extract and no interest in contribution and community isn't likely to be a good neighbour. And the place moved to is frequently impacted in ways that aren't great for the original residents.
But again, that's not this link's demographic or implicit politics. Suggesting internal migration is the same and that there's contradictions both misses complexity and mis-compares; it's not a contradiction in those judging the arsehole energy of the economic migrants the OP is aimed at because they really are, well, special.
posted by onebuttonmonkey at 11:51 AM on January 14 [3 favorites]
I'm not applying the same judgement because I don't see them as comparable.
As presented in the article, the OP is about taking your disproportionate spending power away, avoiding local employment tax, and taking where you are going for what you can get because you have the financial privilege to do so, stuff the system that gave you that wealth, and hurray for keeping there cheap for you, not those who live there and whose salary does not compare. And also screw anyone at home who could do with the greater tax contributions of those better off than them, or the collective action that would improve everyone's lives if recognised instead of the rampant Me-ism of individuals with no regard beyond themselves.
Not everyone who emigrates has this attitude, aim or motivation, but the link is implicitly Those People.
In terms of migrating within countries or regions, there's obviously nuance. It's worth calling out again the impact of residents who are priced out of areas and displaced due to gentrification - they also can't afford to move to somewhere abroad on a tourist visa, typically, but are shunted away to the next rung down and who cares by gentrification wherever it occurs. Admittedly gentrifiers have their own financial and social pressures, and are not necessarily aiming to exploit a new area even if the impact is that displacement anyway, which it almost always is.
I'm in Britain, so I can't comment on states and local versus federal taxation. But generalising, moving somewhere cheaper within your own country without explicitly gentrifying isn't opting out of the US system for your own advantage which is what's being judged. One does always import one's own attitude, though, so someone with little regard for anything other than what they can extract and no interest in contribution and community isn't likely to be a good neighbour. And the place moved to is frequently impacted in ways that aren't great for the original residents.
But again, that's not this link's demographic or implicit politics. Suggesting internal migration is the same and that there's contradictions both misses complexity and mis-compares; it's not a contradiction in those judging the arsehole energy of the economic migrants the OP is aimed at because they really are, well, special.
posted by onebuttonmonkey at 11:51 AM on January 14 [3 favorites]
I don't agree that there's a distinction for people who for whatever reason don't involve themselves in a community. My own country is notoriously parochial and hostile to newcomers, whether they want to be a good neighbour or not; and there's nothing wrong with associating, wherever you are, with whoever you want to. Sometimes leaving itself can also be a form of deep participation in the politics and culture of a society, as many Russians of military age have done, and sometimes---thinking of the European countries in the post-Brexit and British residents in the EU---the border itself can move.
The economic drivers for both citizens of low-income countries moving to high-wage countries to work, and citizens of high-wage countries moving to low-cost countries to live, are absolutely two sides of the same circumstance: that there's a mismatch in both places between economic opportunity on offer and the standard of living available. (I'm not considering, and this is totally artificial, countries where migration drivers are circumstances of insecurity, violence, warfare, statelessness: and that's many). It goes for both migrants who cross borders as well as for those who don't; some of the historical migrations with greatest economic impact have been within a country: take the movement of English people to cities in the Industrial Revolution, or black Americans out of the South in the late 19thC-early 20thC, or East Germans across the Western border before the building of the Wall.
There's an urban planner's joke. A gentrifier is someone who's been priced out of where they want to live, but won't admit it.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 7:42 PM on January 14 [3 favorites]
The economic drivers for both citizens of low-income countries moving to high-wage countries to work, and citizens of high-wage countries moving to low-cost countries to live, are absolutely two sides of the same circumstance: that there's a mismatch in both places between economic opportunity on offer and the standard of living available. (I'm not considering, and this is totally artificial, countries where migration drivers are circumstances of insecurity, violence, warfare, statelessness: and that's many). It goes for both migrants who cross borders as well as for those who don't; some of the historical migrations with greatest economic impact have been within a country: take the movement of English people to cities in the Industrial Revolution, or black Americans out of the South in the late 19thC-early 20thC, or East Germans across the Western border before the building of the Wall.
There's an urban planner's joke. A gentrifier is someone who's been priced out of where they want to live, but won't admit it.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 7:42 PM on January 14 [3 favorites]
> I see a lot of blind spots in the comments here.
MetaFilter:
posted by jklaiho at 10:31 PM on January 14 [1 favorite]
MetaFilter:
posted by jklaiho at 10:31 PM on January 14 [1 favorite]
Many people from these countries that have been wrecked by colonialist and imperialist forces are desperately trying to escape these conditions. In the US, this means refugees from the same countries mentioned above: Mexico, Guatemala, El Salvador. We stand in the way of these desperate people who are desperate because of us, forcing women and children to die of hunger, thirst, cold as they struggle against the walls we have erected.
This. I’m in the middle of representing asylum seekers from two of these three countries right now in immigration court, and all I have to say to people who can just pick up and move wherever they want, whenever they want, without needing to prove that they’ll die if they stay home, is…how nice for you.
posted by naoko at 11:19 PM on January 14 [6 favorites]
This. I’m in the middle of representing asylum seekers from two of these three countries right now in immigration court, and all I have to say to people who can just pick up and move wherever they want, whenever they want, without needing to prove that they’ll die if they stay home, is…how nice for you.
posted by naoko at 11:19 PM on January 14 [6 favorites]
Where was all this smoke for the black expat article?
Personally, it was the "cheapest" focus in the title that makes it gross.
If you want to move someplace because that place is awesome, I am with you 100%,because earth is weird and awesome and we are one human family.
If you want to move someplace because it s the "cheapest", you are kind of a scumbag, solely focused on maximizing your petro-dollar. Gross. At least treat your sex worker with kindness and wear a condom.
posted by eustatic at 2:05 PM on January 20 [2 favorites]
Personally, it was the "cheapest" focus in the title that makes it gross.
If you want to move someplace because that place is awesome, I am with you 100%,because earth is weird and awesome and we are one human family.
If you want to move someplace because it s the "cheapest", you are kind of a scumbag, solely focused on maximizing your petro-dollar. Gross. At least treat your sex worker with kindness and wear a condom.
posted by eustatic at 2:05 PM on January 20 [2 favorites]
I came across a comment I had missed earlier in this thread. I believe it was a response to me saying:
All of those sweet benefits you are getting come with an agreement that you can be used as cannon fodder at the government’s convenience.
and what I believe was said in response was:
Tell Me No Lies, your American myopia is showing.
It was more of a Western Nations myopia, but anyway I went out looking. I am unable to find any country that has not practiced conscription at some time in its history. There are plenty who aren't practicing it right now but every country I looked at has at some point in its history instituted a mandatory draft.
However, the other myopia I'm showing is gender. Woman have frequently been excluded from mandatory service.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 12:36 PM on February 8
All of those sweet benefits you are getting come with an agreement that you can be used as cannon fodder at the government’s convenience.
and what I believe was said in response was:
Tell Me No Lies, your American myopia is showing.
It was more of a Western Nations myopia, but anyway I went out looking. I am unable to find any country that has not practiced conscription at some time in its history. There are plenty who aren't practicing it right now but every country I looked at has at some point in its history instituted a mandatory draft.
However, the other myopia I'm showing is gender. Woman have frequently been excluded from mandatory service.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 12:36 PM on February 8
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