The Winter of Our Malcontents
January 15, 2024 2:05 PM Subscribe
The state of Iowa is in a state of emergency today, with candidates and voters alike beset by a bitterly cold winter storm bringing wind chills of 20-below to the pivotal first-in-the-nation caucuses. Former President Trump maintains his fanatical hold on the field, besting his nearest rivals by record margins despite (or perhaps because of) his multiple indictments and flirtations with fascism. In his wake, late-breaking establishment favorite Nikki Haley vies for second place with a floundering Ron DeSantis, who risks joining Pence, Christie, Ramaswamy, and various other also-rans. The Democrats, meanwhile, are largely sitting this one out -- thanks to the embarrassment of the 2020 contest (and a push from President Biden), their first primary will take place February 3rd -- in South Carolina. The caucusing starts tonight at 7 PM Central Time (1 AM UTC), with results about an hour later; follow the NPR live blog for the latest updates.
The Iowa caucuses previously on MeFi: 2020 - 2016 - 2012 - 2008
The death of the Iowa Democratic caucus: How 50 years of jury-rigging doomed an American tradition - a three-part investigation by the Des Moines Register
Politico: Everyone’s waiting for Ann Selzer to release the most important Iowa caucus poll [and you can now see the results yourself]
The Iowa caucuses previously on MeFi: 2020 - 2016 - 2012 - 2008
The death of the Iowa Democratic caucus: How 50 years of jury-rigging doomed an American tradition - a three-part investigation by the Des Moines Register
Politico: Everyone’s waiting for Ann Selzer to release the most important Iowa caucus poll [and you can now see the results yourself]
I am waiting to hear about how, frozen into a Holiday Inn, Haley hunted and ate DeSantis, not for food, but because she could.
posted by GenjiandProust at 2:29 PM on January 15 [28 favorites]
posted by GenjiandProust at 2:29 PM on January 15 [28 favorites]
Idyllic slice of Americana or weary virtue-signalling mechanism?
posted by Jessica Savitch's Coke Spoon at 2:38 PM on January 15 [7 favorites]
posted by Jessica Savitch's Coke Spoon at 2:38 PM on January 15 [7 favorites]
why not both?
posted by scruss at 2:40 PM on January 15 [4 favorites]
posted by scruss at 2:40 PM on January 15 [4 favorites]
Gov. Kim Reynolds rode high on Trumpism, then endorsed DeSantis instead of Trump. Can't wait to see her response if he comes in third.
posted by McBearclaw at 2:50 PM on January 15
posted by McBearclaw at 2:50 PM on January 15
flirtations with fascism.
He's not "flirting" with it, he's enthusiastically raw dogging it right out in the street.
I saw some last minute poll where like 48-50% of Iowa Haley caucusers say they won't vote for Trump in the general if he gets convicted between now and then and I thought, "So, like, 50 voters? Maybe 75?"
posted by soundguy99 at 3:10 PM on January 15 [27 favorites]
He's not "flirting" with it, he's enthusiastically raw dogging it right out in the street.
I saw some last minute poll where like 48-50% of Iowa Haley caucusers say they won't vote for Trump in the general if he gets convicted between now and then and I thought, "So, like, 50 voters? Maybe 75?"
posted by soundguy99 at 3:10 PM on January 15 [27 favorites]
Tomorrow I'm going to celebrate a new Iowa holiday: Stop Being Harassed by the Ramaswamy Campaign Day. I am not sure why that turd thinks I would ever in a billion years caucus for him, but I'm getting like five calls and three texts from his campaign every day.
Anyway, I am going to the dumb Democratic sorta-caucus thingie, partly because I want to support whatever stop-killing-people-in-Gaza resolution gets proposed and partly because I'm going absolutely stir crazy after being snowed in for almost a week, and it's an excuse to get out of the house. Wish me luck: it is truly fucking cold out there.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 3:23 PM on January 15 [38 favorites]
Anyway, I am going to the dumb Democratic sorta-caucus thingie, partly because I want to support whatever stop-killing-people-in-Gaza resolution gets proposed and partly because I'm going absolutely stir crazy after being snowed in for almost a week, and it's an excuse to get out of the house. Wish me luck: it is truly fucking cold out there.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 3:23 PM on January 15 [38 favorites]
Just a note for an MAGA folks happening to be looking here: you're guy is a shoe in so you REALLY don't need to go out in the cold tonight.
I dunno. Cheeto was pretty adamant that his supporters need to go out, even if it meant they died afterwards. Seriously. He said that.
posted by Thorzdad at 3:42 PM on January 15 [13 favorites]
I dunno. Cheeto was pretty adamant that his supporters need to go out, even if it meant they died afterwards. Seriously. He said that.
posted by Thorzdad at 3:42 PM on January 15 [13 favorites]
The state of Iowa is in a state of emergency today
When hell freezes over...
posted by chavenet at 3:48 PM on January 15 [6 favorites]
When hell freezes over...
posted by chavenet at 3:48 PM on January 15 [6 favorites]
Gov. Kim Reynolds rode high on Trumpism, then endorsed DeSantis instead of Trump. Can't wait to see her response if he comes in third.
Here's how she's walking that back currently, per the NYT:
Gov. Kim Reynolds of Iowa, who has come under withering attack from Donald Trump after endorsing Ron DeSantis, said that she would support Trump if he wins the nomination. “I’m a Republican,” Reynolds said on Fox News. “And all of the candidates running are going to be better than what we have.”
posted by Dip Flash at 4:19 PM on January 15
Here's how she's walking that back currently, per the NYT:
Gov. Kim Reynolds of Iowa, who has come under withering attack from Donald Trump after endorsing Ron DeSantis, said that she would support Trump if he wins the nomination. “I’m a Republican,” Reynolds said on Fox News. “And all of the candidates running are going to be better than what we have.”
posted by Dip Flash at 4:19 PM on January 15
He's not "flirting" with it, he's enthusiastically raw dogging it right out in the street.
Both worst and best sentence of the month, simultaneously.
posted by Dip Flash at 4:21 PM on January 15 [15 favorites]
Both worst and best sentence of the month, simultaneously.
posted by Dip Flash at 4:21 PM on January 15 [15 favorites]
He's Mister Icicle; he's Mister thirty below.
posted by clavdivs at 4:21 PM on January 15 [5 favorites]
posted by clavdivs at 4:21 PM on January 15 [5 favorites]
God. Remember when he almost died of COVID? Unbelievable this timeline.
posted by seanmpuckett at 4:28 PM on January 15 [24 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 4:28 PM on January 15 [24 favorites]
Vox has an interesting article about why exactly Trumpism is so popular
posted by Jacen at 4:42 PM on January 15 [6 favorites]
posted by Jacen at 4:42 PM on January 15 [6 favorites]
The Des Moines Register piece makes a statement that to me shows the fundamental misunderstanding of the problem with caucuses:
(It also didn't help that the Iowa Democratic Caucus was particularly fucked in that regard, with their use of "cattle call" voting that fails to acknowledge the reasons for the secret ballot. At least Iowa Republicans grasped the importance of that.)
posted by NoxAeternum at 4:42 PM on January 15 [17 favorites]
The root problem, though, is that the caucuses simply aren’t built to sustain close races. They’re designed to help reach a general consensus, to narrow the field to a handful.Well, no. The root problem is that caucuses, for all their trappings of herrenvolk democracy, are profoundly antidemocratic. When the only caucus to outperform a primary election in participation was Iowa, it becomes abundantly clear that caucuses disenfranchise the public, and if you actually care about letting people have a voice, a better system is necessary.
(It also didn't help that the Iowa Democratic Caucus was particularly fucked in that regard, with their use of "cattle call" voting that fails to acknowledge the reasons for the secret ballot. At least Iowa Republicans grasped the importance of that.)
posted by NoxAeternum at 4:42 PM on January 15 [17 favorites]
And all of the candidates running are going to be better than what we have.
Asserts facts not in evidence.
posted by Thorzdad at 5:58 PM on January 15 [2 favorites]
Asserts facts not in evidence.
posted by Thorzdad at 5:58 PM on January 15 [2 favorites]
Aside: I want to point out that Politico should maybe be given a wide berth after it got acquired by the right-wing tabloid publisher Axel Springer.
posted by splitpeasoup at 6:24 PM on January 15 [12 favorites]
posted by splitpeasoup at 6:24 PM on January 15 [12 favorites]
At this writing, this seems predictably headed to the most boring outcome that still gives pundits an excuse to pretend something exciting is happening. The usual dickhead is running either just below or just above the "crucial" 50%, while the excreta of South Carolina and Florida are locked in a dead heat for a meaningless second place.
posted by Not A Thing at 7:49 PM on January 15 [5 favorites]
posted by Not A Thing at 7:49 PM on January 15 [5 favorites]
As Andrew Prokop @ Vox.com points out, there's a large element of self-fulfilling prophecy to this: The Iowa caucuses only matter because people believe they matter.
"Media, party insiders, activists, the candidates themselves, and even voters in other states think the caucus results reveal a great deal about which candidates can win elsewhere. The contest for Iowa isn’t really a contest for delegates; it’s a contest to look good."
posted by soundguy99 at 8:17 PM on January 15 [1 favorite]
"Media, party insiders, activists, the candidates themselves, and even voters in other states think the caucus results reveal a great deal about which candidates can win elsewhere. The contest for Iowa isn’t really a contest for delegates; it’s a contest to look good."
posted by soundguy99 at 8:17 PM on January 15 [1 favorite]
"'This country needs a dictator!' Trump Fans At Iowa Rally Say ‘Absolutely’ They Want Dictator Trump Over Biden"
posted by zaixfeep at 8:18 PM on January 15 [1 favorite]
posted by zaixfeep at 8:18 PM on January 15 [1 favorite]
GOP turnout (@120k) down by a little over a 1/3rd compared to 2016 (187k). It’s cold, but still :)
posted by airing nerdy laundry at 9:26 PM on January 15 [3 favorites]
posted by airing nerdy laundry at 9:26 PM on January 15 [3 favorites]
Ok, this is probably a dumb question, but why don't anti Trump democrats or anti-Trump anybodies sign up as "Republican" and vote against him?
posted by storybored at 9:46 PM on January 15 [2 favorites]
posted by storybored at 9:46 PM on January 15 [2 favorites]
A few did, but most people I know didn’t want to be associated with the Republicans, didn’t want to be on Republican call lists, and couldn’t bring themselves to vote for any of the Republican candidates.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 10:07 PM on January 15 [8 favorites]
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 10:07 PM on January 15 [8 favorites]
Vox has an interesting article about why exactly Trumpism is so popular
Bronzer and cruelty. Mostly cruelty.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 10:34 PM on January 15 [3 favorites]
Bronzer and cruelty. Mostly cruelty.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 10:34 PM on January 15 [3 favorites]
Fuck em. Fuck them in the eye. I hate these people.
It's cold in Iowa? It's almost like Des Moines has winter every year. Des Moines, the birthplace of American neofascism. I want it to be bitterly cold, they have to walk the frozen trail, leaning 45 degrees into an ice wind. Fuck these people, they hate America. They hate you. Fuck them.
It's a cult. This is a cult meeting. They are going to submit to the cult leader. They are going to submit to the cult leader. They are going to submit to the cult leader.
posted by adept256 at 10:44 PM on January 15 [21 favorites]
It's cold in Iowa? It's almost like Des Moines has winter every year. Des Moines, the birthplace of American neofascism. I want it to be bitterly cold, they have to walk the frozen trail, leaning 45 degrees into an ice wind. Fuck these people, they hate America. They hate you. Fuck them.
It's a cult. This is a cult meeting. They are going to submit to the cult leader. They are going to submit to the cult leader. They are going to submit to the cult leader.
posted by adept256 at 10:44 PM on January 15 [21 favorites]
Iowa GOP turnout even worse than reported earlier: 110k, down 40% compared to 2016, lowest turnout in a competitive IA caucus in over 20 yrs.
GOP has to hope the sharp drop-off is entirely weather-related and doesn't signal waning enthusiasm for its candidates.
posted by airing nerdy laundry at 10:56 PM on January 15 [11 favorites]
GOP has to hope the sharp drop-off is entirely weather-related and doesn't signal waning enthusiasm for its candidates.
posted by airing nerdy laundry at 10:56 PM on January 15 [11 favorites]
That photo of Trump in the Vox article…usually we think of these people, somewhat jokingly, as lizard people walking around in human suits, but Trump there looks like a human trapped inside in a lizard suit.
posted by jabah at 4:47 AM on January 16 [4 favorites]
posted by jabah at 4:47 AM on January 16 [4 favorites]
This all is just a rehearsal. He is going to be the Republican candidate. It is now up to the people of this country whether or not a functional democratic republic will be in place come November.
posted by DJZouke at 4:53 AM on January 16 [4 favorites]
posted by DJZouke at 4:53 AM on January 16 [4 favorites]
He doesn't look like a living thing, that's for sure. Must be getting daily injections of formaldehyde. I'm sure if you move the comb-over you'll find a USB port for charging the titanium endoskeleton that moves the meat around and powers the mouth.
posted by seanmpuckett at 5:09 AM on January 16 [1 favorite]
posted by seanmpuckett at 5:09 AM on January 16 [1 favorite]
It is now up to the people of this country whether or not a functional democratic republic will be in place come November.
That’s kind of the issue, isn’t it? So many people in this nation, from all walks but especially the more conservative walk, genuinely believe the US isn’t a functional democratic republic. In hindsight, the machinations of republicans, especially in the us house and in state legislatures, over the past 20-30 years or so almost seem to have been orchestrated to drive that idea home.
Seriously. If americans install Trump as president/dictator in november, it will will be the capstone of a decades-long movement designed to arrive at that point. One of the biggest questions future historians will have about this is whether this was always the plan, or if the conservative movement overshot its goal (a permanent majority) and accidentally ended-up getting a dictatorship led by exactly the wrong person.
posted by Thorzdad at 5:41 AM on January 16 [7 favorites]
That’s kind of the issue, isn’t it? So many people in this nation, from all walks but especially the more conservative walk, genuinely believe the US isn’t a functional democratic republic. In hindsight, the machinations of republicans, especially in the us house and in state legislatures, over the past 20-30 years or so almost seem to have been orchestrated to drive that idea home.
Seriously. If americans install Trump as president/dictator in november, it will will be the capstone of a decades-long movement designed to arrive at that point. One of the biggest questions future historians will have about this is whether this was always the plan, or if the conservative movement overshot its goal (a permanent majority) and accidentally ended-up getting a dictatorship led by exactly the wrong person.
posted by Thorzdad at 5:41 AM on January 16 [7 favorites]
Does one ever get a dictatorship with the right person?
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:53 AM on January 16 [3 favorites]
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:53 AM on January 16 [3 favorites]
Our media outlets could have had headlines like "Trump Comes in First in Iowa, During Record-Low Turnout". But they didn't.
posted by gimonca at 5:59 AM on January 16 [11 favorites]
posted by gimonca at 5:59 AM on January 16 [11 favorites]
It is now up to the people of this country whether or not a functional democratic republic will be in place come November.
It is now up to a minority of the population located in the most racist backwards underpopulated states to double down on the January 6th treason or not.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 6:53 AM on January 16 [5 favorites]
It is now up to a minority of the population located in the most racist backwards underpopulated states to double down on the January 6th treason or not.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 6:53 AM on January 16 [5 favorites]
Well, Vivek is out.
He tried to CHIM but zero-summed.
posted by charred husk at 7:44 AM on January 16
He tried to CHIM but zero-summed.
posted by charred husk at 7:44 AM on January 16
I'm just glad we can now dispense with the lurid fantasy that there is actually a contest for the Republican nomination. Now it's six months of Silly Season before average Americans tune in and say fuck it, I gotta vote for Biden to keep Golden Toilet out of the White House.
What worries me is there's going to be a tripled-down Russian propaganda effort to get Ardent Progressives to stay home because their "principles" won't let them vote for Biden. Sooo many false-flag operations. What gives me hope is that RFK Jr and Cornel West are such obvious shitbirds that propaganda supporting them is going to fall flat.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 7:51 AM on January 16 [6 favorites]
What worries me is there's going to be a tripled-down Russian propaganda effort to get Ardent Progressives to stay home because their "principles" won't let them vote for Biden. Sooo many false-flag operations. What gives me hope is that RFK Jr and Cornel West are such obvious shitbirds that propaganda supporting them is going to fall flat.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 7:51 AM on January 16 [6 favorites]
What worries me is there's going to be a tripled-down Russian propaganda effort to get Ardent Progressives to stay home because their "principles" won't let them vote for Biden.
So anyone who feels this way is was simply swayed by Russian propaganda?
posted by drstrangelove at 8:16 AM on January 16
So anyone who feels this way is was simply swayed by Russian propaganda?
posted by drstrangelove at 8:16 AM on January 16
So anyone who feels this way is was simply swayed by Russian propaganda?
Or is a person so selfish that they're willing to risk fascism to prove some kind of point about how special they and their values are, yes.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 8:18 AM on January 16 [16 favorites]
Or is a person so selfish that they're willing to risk fascism to prove some kind of point about how special they and their values are, yes.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 8:18 AM on January 16 [16 favorites]
So anyone who feels this way is was simply swayed by Russian propaganda?
Treating this as a good-faith question: No, obviously not. Propaganda works best when it taps into something organic, and there are plenty of people whose feelings are already on the neutral-to-negative about Biden. But it's also obvious that there will be various influencing campaigns and some will probably try to tap into this.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:19 AM on January 16 [6 favorites]
Treating this as a good-faith question: No, obviously not. Propaganda works best when it taps into something organic, and there are plenty of people whose feelings are already on the neutral-to-negative about Biden. But it's also obvious that there will be various influencing campaigns and some will probably try to tap into this.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:19 AM on January 16 [6 favorites]
The real danger in the next ten months is that Biden will have a health event. I'm sure they're doing everything possible to keep him as hale as an 81 year old can possibly be. But shit do happen.
posted by seanmpuckett at 8:31 AM on January 16 [4 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 8:31 AM on January 16 [4 favorites]
because their "principles"
The scare quotes are really unnecessary. Not wanting the president to actively abet a genocide is actually a principle, not a "principle."
posted by mittens at 8:53 AM on January 16 [4 favorites]
The scare quotes are really unnecessary. Not wanting the president to actively abet a genocide is actually a principle, not a "principle."
posted by mittens at 8:53 AM on January 16 [4 favorites]
Being willing to risk fascism and even worse treatment of Gazans isn't a principle, quotes or not.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 9:01 AM on January 16 [5 favorites]
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 9:01 AM on January 16 [5 favorites]
You can't fight in here, this is the War Room MeFi. Can we all cool it a bit please?
posted by wenestvedt at 9:08 AM on January 16
posted by wenestvedt at 9:08 AM on January 16
people seem to think they become complicit when they vote... stopping a worse evil is better than allowing it to happen... both sides are going to support Israel, one side is going to do a whole lot worse
posted by kokaku at 9:21 AM on January 16 [5 favorites]
posted by kokaku at 9:21 AM on January 16 [5 favorites]
Or is a person so selfish that they're willing to risk fascism to prove some kind of point about how special they and their values are, yes.
I heard this kind of nonsense in 2016 when I voted for Jill Stein. I don't live in a swing state. In fact, every election has gone to the GOP since before I was born with little chance of that changing in my lifetime. Calling me "selfish" and blaming me for the Orange Turd is not a useful strategy when I could have voted for an inanimate carbon rod and it wouldn't have changed the outcome.
posted by drstrangelove at 10:22 AM on January 16 [3 favorites]
I heard this kind of nonsense in 2016 when I voted for Jill Stein. I don't live in a swing state. In fact, every election has gone to the GOP since before I was born with little chance of that changing in my lifetime. Calling me "selfish" and blaming me for the Orange Turd is not a useful strategy when I could have voted for an inanimate carbon rod and it wouldn't have changed the outcome.
posted by drstrangelove at 10:22 AM on January 16 [3 favorites]
I heard this kind of nonsense in 2016 when I voted for Jill Stein.
#sobrave. Was it her complete lack of experience, her 1-5 win-loss record in local elections, or her proximity to Vladimir Putin that attracted you to her? Remember that the "Green" in Green Party stands for Getting Republicans Elected Every November.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 10:39 AM on January 16 [9 favorites]
#sobrave. Was it her complete lack of experience, her 1-5 win-loss record in local elections, or her proximity to Vladimir Putin that attracted you to her? Remember that the "Green" in Green Party stands for Getting Republicans Elected Every November.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 10:39 AM on January 16 [9 favorites]
I'm just glad we can now dispense with the lurid fantasy that there is actually a contest for the Republican nomination.
They were all waiting for a meteor. That was their lurid fantasy. All these loyal republicans daydreaming about him being gone for the sake of their career. It was their only chance.
That's the unsavory truth behind all of these candidates. They all wish Trump would .
posted by adept256 at 10:43 AM on January 16
They were all waiting for a meteor. That was their lurid fantasy. All these loyal republicans daydreaming about him being gone for the sake of their career. It was their only chance.
That's the unsavory truth behind all of these candidates. They all wish Trump would .
posted by adept256 at 10:43 AM on January 16
That's the unsavory truth behind all of these candidates. They all wish Trump would .
Or actually go to jail or self-destruct in some other way. I don't think they counted on his death being the only thing that would keep people from voting for him, though. And even then you could count on the Q folk to proclaim that he was actually still secretly alive...
posted by charred husk at 10:46 AM on January 16
Or actually go to jail or self-destruct in some other way. I don't think they counted on his death being the only thing that would keep people from voting for him, though. And even then you could count on the Q folk to proclaim that he was actually still secretly alive...
posted by charred husk at 10:46 AM on January 16
#sobrave. Was it her complete lack of experience, her 1-5 win-loss record in local elections, or her proximity to Vladimir Putin that attracted you to her? Remember that the "Green" in Green Party stands for Getting Republicans Elected Every November.
Ah yes, Jill Stein, noted Putin puppet. Is that the best you can do? And I don't see where you address my point that it makes no difference who I voted for as Trump would have carried this state regardless.
Also, this kind of snide remark is precisely why Leftists like me continue to distance ourselves from the Dems.
posted by drstrangelove at 10:52 AM on January 16 [2 favorites]
Ah yes, Jill Stein, noted Putin puppet. Is that the best you can do? And I don't see where you address my point that it makes no difference who I voted for as Trump would have carried this state regardless.
Also, this kind of snide remark is precisely why Leftists like me continue to distance ourselves from the Dems.
posted by drstrangelove at 10:52 AM on January 16 [2 favorites]
I mean...she does support Putin. And thinks wi-fi damages brains. Ah, Jill Stein.
Can we not attack other posters though, please, that's against site policy. Plenty of vitriol to direct TFG's way instead.
posted by tiny frying pan at 11:07 AM on January 16 [5 favorites]
Can we not attack other posters though, please, that's against site policy. Plenty of vitriol to direct TFG's way instead.
posted by tiny frying pan at 11:07 AM on January 16 [5 favorites]
I mean...she does support Putin. And thinks wi-fi damages brains. Ah, Jill Stein.
At least Jill Stein didn't giggle about destroying a country and executing its leader.
I never said she was the greatest candidate and my continued support of third party candidates has generally been a protest vote. I wasn't about to vote for either of the two mainstream candidates in 2016 as both were odious to me.
posted by drstrangelove at 11:44 AM on January 16 [1 favorite]
At least Jill Stein didn't giggle about destroying a country and executing its leader.
I never said she was the greatest candidate and my continued support of third party candidates has generally been a protest vote. I wasn't about to vote for either of the two mainstream candidates in 2016 as both were odious to me.
posted by drstrangelove at 11:44 AM on January 16 [1 favorite]
Also, this kind of snide remark is precisely why Leftists like me continue to distance ourselves from the Dems.
posted by drstrangelove
I would have thought it was their refusal to close the mineshaft gap.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 11:55 AM on January 16
posted by drstrangelove
I would have thought it was their refusal to close the mineshaft gap.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 11:55 AM on January 16
I am going to vote for whoever stands the best chance of keeping a Republican out of the White House come November. That is almost certainly going to be the Democratic candidate, who is almost certainly going to be Joe Biden. It won't matter, because I live in a deep red part of a deep red state, but I am going to do it anyway.
That said, there are two ways to look at voting. One is that it is a desperate measure, one that justifies voting for genuinely terrible people with blood on their hands, because they will at least slow the descent into fascism until a better, more just system can be created. I am very sympathetic to this view. And if that is how you view the election than not voting, or voting third party are useless gestures that don't do the one thing voting is good for, weakening the most shameless fascists.
The other way is to see American democracy as a valid example of participatory democracy. And viewed that way, people's votes are not a means to any particular end, but the expression of their political will. The politicians should be expected to make themselves appealing enough for voters to support them, and people should have the right to support whatever Quixotic platform they think is deserving of their time, money, and vote.
I feel like a lot of the time though, the Democratic party want to try to argue for both simultaneously. When their candidates are criticized, they paint criticism as being effectively an endorsement of the Republican candidate. But they also want active support and enthusiasm for their candidates, like we are all on the same page, rooting for our guy to win, and viewing electoral success as providing a genuine kind of moral authority for their leadership.
If they want to argue that there is no moral choice other than to support Biden, because American democracy is so badly broken that we have to choose anyone, no matter how vile, lest the fascists win, how can you then expect people to treat this system as anything but a failed project? If that is the case, shouldn't we all be trying to create a system that doesn't leave us choosing between monsters? Democracy isn't a suicide pact. If this system has any validity, than people have the right to try to organize real alternatives within it without being condemned for their efforts.If it doesn't, then lets all take the time to vote against Trump and then devote the rest of our efforts to building a system that isn't reliant on the good will of ancient racists to get anything accomplished.
To be clear, I am not accusing anybody here of engaging in this sort of hypocrisy, I think it is a wider part of the political dynamic in the US, and why clashes of expectation between those who support third party candidates and entryism clash with those who view electoral politics more cynically.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 12:03 PM on January 16 [4 favorites]
That said, there are two ways to look at voting. One is that it is a desperate measure, one that justifies voting for genuinely terrible people with blood on their hands, because they will at least slow the descent into fascism until a better, more just system can be created. I am very sympathetic to this view. And if that is how you view the election than not voting, or voting third party are useless gestures that don't do the one thing voting is good for, weakening the most shameless fascists.
The other way is to see American democracy as a valid example of participatory democracy. And viewed that way, people's votes are not a means to any particular end, but the expression of their political will. The politicians should be expected to make themselves appealing enough for voters to support them, and people should have the right to support whatever Quixotic platform they think is deserving of their time, money, and vote.
I feel like a lot of the time though, the Democratic party want to try to argue for both simultaneously. When their candidates are criticized, they paint criticism as being effectively an endorsement of the Republican candidate. But they also want active support and enthusiasm for their candidates, like we are all on the same page, rooting for our guy to win, and viewing electoral success as providing a genuine kind of moral authority for their leadership.
If they want to argue that there is no moral choice other than to support Biden, because American democracy is so badly broken that we have to choose anyone, no matter how vile, lest the fascists win, how can you then expect people to treat this system as anything but a failed project? If that is the case, shouldn't we all be trying to create a system that doesn't leave us choosing between monsters? Democracy isn't a suicide pact. If this system has any validity, than people have the right to try to organize real alternatives within it without being condemned for their efforts.If it doesn't, then lets all take the time to vote against Trump and then devote the rest of our efforts to building a system that isn't reliant on the good will of ancient racists to get anything accomplished.
To be clear, I am not accusing anybody here of engaging in this sort of hypocrisy, I think it is a wider part of the political dynamic in the US, and why clashes of expectation between those who support third party candidates and entryism clash with those who view electoral politics more cynically.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 12:03 PM on January 16 [4 favorites]
That said, there are two ways to look at voting. One is that it is a desperate measure, one that justifies voting for genuinely terrible people with blood on their hands, because they will at least slow the descent into fascism until a better, more just system can be created.
It's not just the slowing of that ride, though, for me. Look at any ONE thing that Biden has done that you consider good. That's gone, non-existent, if TFG is back. Either didn't happen in the first place, or is dismantled.
posted by tiny frying pan at 12:30 PM on January 16 [5 favorites]
It's not just the slowing of that ride, though, for me. Look at any ONE thing that Biden has done that you consider good. That's gone, non-existent, if TFG is back. Either didn't happen in the first place, or is dismantled.
posted by tiny frying pan at 12:30 PM on January 16 [5 favorites]
Vivek Ramasmarmy got 8,000 votes and failed to “shock the world” as he promised. Has anyone done the math on his ROI? Really hoping I never hear from him again. Such a bro-chud.
posted by misterpatrick at 12:35 PM on January 16 [3 favorites]
posted by misterpatrick at 12:35 PM on January 16 [3 favorites]
because American democracy is so badly broken that we have to choose anyone, no matter how vile, lest the fascists win
I mean, anyone who doesn't think this is probably making six figures and should probably be voting Republican anyway. Or is an accelerationist who is deluded about not being first up against the wall.
posted by rikschell at 1:16 PM on January 16 [1 favorite]
I mean, anyone who doesn't think this is probably making six figures and should probably be voting Republican anyway. Or is an accelerationist who is deluded about not being first up against the wall.
posted by rikschell at 1:16 PM on January 16 [1 favorite]
Mod note: Reminder that calling each other out in comments is never ok. Please reconsider commenting if you are not going to participate in good faith.
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 3:37 PM on January 16 [2 favorites]
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 3:37 PM on January 16 [2 favorites]
I used to work with a guy who didn't vote. He explained to me that voting felt like an endorsement, and that politicians were doing the (waves hands) stuff they were doing because they were getting votes for doing it. Once enough people stopped voting, he explained, politicians would see that people didn't like all that (waves hands) stuff, and things would change for the better. Just need people to stop voting.
I asked him, what's the difference between someone who doesn't vote because he doesn't like what any of the candidates are doing, and someone who doesn't vote because he's totally OK with whichever candidate gets elected? If your key policy preference was that sandwiches remain legal, well, that's not up for debate, so why bother voting. Surely those elected to office would prefer the generous interpretation that they're all doing great. No one ever got fired because voter turnout was low, after all.
He votes now.
So that's what I hear when people talk about voting for unviable third-party candidates. It's the "I don't care; everyone else can just decide for me" option. Pizza or sushi, both are fine, so I'll vote for cinnamon sticks for dinner to send a message. That's fine, but also it's less work to just stay home on election day and accomplishes just as much.
posted by 0xFCAF at 3:53 PM on January 16 [4 favorites]
I asked him, what's the difference between someone who doesn't vote because he doesn't like what any of the candidates are doing, and someone who doesn't vote because he's totally OK with whichever candidate gets elected? If your key policy preference was that sandwiches remain legal, well, that's not up for debate, so why bother voting. Surely those elected to office would prefer the generous interpretation that they're all doing great. No one ever got fired because voter turnout was low, after all.
He votes now.
So that's what I hear when people talk about voting for unviable third-party candidates. It's the "I don't care; everyone else can just decide for me" option. Pizza or sushi, both are fine, so I'll vote for cinnamon sticks for dinner to send a message. That's fine, but also it's less work to just stay home on election day and accomplishes just as much.
posted by 0xFCAF at 3:53 PM on January 16 [4 favorites]
Vivek Ramasmarmy got 8,000 votes and failed to “shock the world” as he promised. Has anyone done the math on his ROI? Really hoping I never hear from him again. Such a bro-chud.
There’s a credible possibility that Ramaswamy was using his campaign to get himself into the Right-Wing Talk Show Grifting game. Possibly not at first, but that looks like where he’s headed now.
posted by GenjiandProust at 6:04 PM on January 16 [3 favorites]
There’s a credible possibility that Ramaswamy was using his campaign to get himself into the Right-Wing Talk Show Grifting game. Possibly not at first, but that looks like where he’s headed now.
posted by GenjiandProust at 6:04 PM on January 16 [3 favorites]
There’s a credible possibility that Ramaswamy was using his campaign to get himself into the Right-Wing Talk Show Grifting game. Possibly not at first, but that looks like where he’s headed now.
I feel like I've seriously missed the boat on not getting into the right wing grifter game. There are millions of people who are eager to throw their hard-earned money at these hucksters, and here I am sitting on the sidelines.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:18 PM on January 16 [5 favorites]
I feel like I've seriously missed the boat on not getting into the right wing grifter game. There are millions of people who are eager to throw their hard-earned money at these hucksters, and here I am sitting on the sidelines.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:18 PM on January 16 [5 favorites]
>There are millions of people who are eager to throw their hard-earned money at these hucksters, and here I am sitting on the sidelines.
With your soul intact.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 6:30 PM on January 16 [5 favorites]
With your soul intact.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 6:30 PM on January 16 [5 favorites]
Or, at least, never coming back into focus with Alex Jones talking to you on the other side of the table and realizing that, whatever universe you are in, you have made a terrible mistake, as you hear yourself say “that’s a good point, Alex, have you heard about the new supplement, ULTRAMaleForce?” as your souls screams and screams and screams.
posted by GenjiandProust at 6:36 PM on January 16 [7 favorites]
posted by GenjiandProust at 6:36 PM on January 16 [7 favorites]
....shouldn't we all be trying to create a system that doesn't leave us choosing between monsters? Democracy isn't a suicide pact. If this system has any validity, than people have the right to try to organize real alternatives within it without being condemned for their efforts.
Real alternatives, sure. But who can realistically get either the Democratic or Republican nomination for president in 2024 that's not Trump or Biden?
The next president is going to either be Monster Trump or Monster Biden. Biden is the lesser of two evils. So he's less evil.
posted by kirkaracha at 9:16 PM on January 16 [3 favorites]
Real alternatives, sure. But who can realistically get either the Democratic or Republican nomination for president in 2024 that's not Trump or Biden?
The next president is going to either be Monster Trump or Monster Biden. Biden is the lesser of two evils. So he's less evil.
posted by kirkaracha at 9:16 PM on January 16 [3 favorites]
>Real alternatives, sure. But who can realistically get either the Democratic or Republican nomination for president in 2024 that's not Trump or Biden?
I meant alternatives to the existing parties. Which means running candidates, building support for them, and voting for them.
If it is genuinely not possible to do that (and I think it isn't), then the system has failed and we need to create a better one.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 9:53 PM on January 16
I meant alternatives to the existing parties. Which means running candidates, building support for them, and voting for them.
If it is genuinely not possible to do that (and I think it isn't), then the system has failed and we need to create a better one.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 9:53 PM on January 16
Of course it's possible.
Currently-minor parties face some real but pretty inconsequential structural problems. The core real problem they face is a tough chicken-and-egg problem.
On the one hand, they keep nominating useless chucklefucks that almost nobody likes, who then go on to do miserably in their elections. On the other hand, people who broadly agree with them and who would be good candidates (in the sense of winning votes) can see that their candidates do miserably and don't seek or accept their nomination. Because that's part of being a good candidate. So minor parties end up having to choose from the floor sweepings again. They need to nominate candidates who do well in order to have be able to attract candidates who do well. If they could crack that chicken-and-egg problem, a bog-standard Christian democratic party would absolutely dominate American politics for a generation.
It really doesn't help that so many of them seem to concentrate on the presidential level instead of trying to win local elections in areas friendly to their program. My general thought is that this is because they don't actually give a shit about winning elections and are a weird combination of leadership grift and performance art, but this can be hard to distinguish from parties run by sincere but useless chucklefucks.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 3:56 AM on January 17 [10 favorites]
Currently-minor parties face some real but pretty inconsequential structural problems. The core real problem they face is a tough chicken-and-egg problem.
On the one hand, they keep nominating useless chucklefucks that almost nobody likes, who then go on to do miserably in their elections. On the other hand, people who broadly agree with them and who would be good candidates (in the sense of winning votes) can see that their candidates do miserably and don't seek or accept their nomination. Because that's part of being a good candidate. So minor parties end up having to choose from the floor sweepings again. They need to nominate candidates who do well in order to have be able to attract candidates who do well. If they could crack that chicken-and-egg problem, a bog-standard Christian democratic party would absolutely dominate American politics for a generation.
It really doesn't help that so many of them seem to concentrate on the presidential level instead of trying to win local elections in areas friendly to their program. My general thought is that this is because they don't actually give a shit about winning elections and are a weird combination of leadership grift and performance art, but this can be hard to distinguish from parties run by sincere but useless chucklefucks.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 3:56 AM on January 17 [10 favorites]
The US is structurally 2 party and it's in neither party's interests to change that. A third-party is just lumped in as Independent as far as Congress goes and caucuses with one of the 2 otherwise they have no real power.
posted by kokaku at 6:11 AM on January 17 [1 favorite]
posted by kokaku at 6:11 AM on January 17 [1 favorite]
Also, anytime a 3rd party has an idea that starts getting traction, one or both of the major parties tend to copy their homework and put out their own watered-down version. It's never radical enough to truly seduce 3rd party true believers, but often even a limp effort can persuade voters to stick with the major players.
posted by Panjandrum at 5:50 PM on January 17 [1 favorite]
posted by Panjandrum at 5:50 PM on January 17 [1 favorite]
“It's a cult,” Lucian K. Truscott IV, 18 January 2024
posted by ob1quixote at 8:54 AM on January 18 [2 favorites]
posted by ob1quixote at 8:54 AM on January 18 [2 favorites]
Ron DeSantis ends presidential campaign, endorses Trump (WaPo) “While this campaign has ended, the mission continues,” Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis said in a video in which he endorsed Donald Trump.
posted by Iris Gambol at 12:17 PM on January 21
posted by Iris Gambol at 12:17 PM on January 21
MetaFilter: useless chucklefucks that almost nobody likes.
posted by kirkaracha at 1:29 PM on January 23
posted by kirkaracha at 1:29 PM on January 23
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posted by sammyo at 2:26 PM on January 15 [7 favorites]