The Spectacular Failure of the Star Wars Hotel
May 19, 2024 3:30 AM Subscribe
Jenny Nicholson's latest video is live, it's a 4 hour review retrospective of Disney's Star Wars Hotel.
someone tell this vbloger she needs an editor, this would be a fantastic 15 minute video...
Someone tell this author that he needs an editor, this Great Expectations book would be a fantastic short story but... 400 pages?
With Jenny Nicholson the length and obsession over details is kind of the point. Looking forward to watching this over the coming week.
posted by nangua at 5:27 AM on May 19 [56 favorites]
Someone tell this author that he needs an editor, this Great Expectations book would be a fantastic short story but... 400 pages?
With Jenny Nicholson the length and obsession over details is kind of the point. Looking forward to watching this over the coming week.
posted by nangua at 5:27 AM on May 19 [56 favorites]
Jenny Nicholson is a delight and a treasure and more into Disney and nerdism than most people are into everything in their lives. You don't ask Dali for less melting clocks and you don't ask Van Gogh to be ultra realistic. Some people are experts and have fully earned their credentials. I'ma watch it all, probably today. And Summoning Salt just dropped a two. Hour. Video. On Tetris world records, and it will probably be riveting as well.
Jenny's video might well be the definitive history of the short lived hotel/interactive theater experience. She can make it just as long as she wants. This is a documentary, not a tldr explainer.
posted by Jacen at 5:42 AM on May 19 [29 favorites]
Jenny's video might well be the definitive history of the short lived hotel/interactive theater experience. She can make it just as long as she wants. This is a documentary, not a tldr explainer.
posted by Jacen at 5:42 AM on May 19 [29 favorites]
I will hear no complaints about the length of that rarest of treats--a complete Jenny Nicholson video on YouTube.
posted by MagnificentVacuum at 5:46 AM on May 19 [15 favorites]
posted by MagnificentVacuum at 5:46 AM on May 19 [15 favorites]
I have no idea why theme park companies aren't making her rich paying her consulting fees.
Well, other then hubris and executives terrified of admitting they're not the smartest person in the room.
posted by mikelieman at 5:48 AM on May 19 [12 favorites]
Well, other then hubris and executives terrified of admitting they're not the smartest person in the room.
posted by mikelieman at 5:48 AM on May 19 [12 favorites]
I scrubbed through this last night, and I think they do have a tl;dr, which is: this is really expensive. Which, fair, it was. But it's mentioned like every five minutes. It's a lot.
I am neither a Disney nor a Star Wars fan, but I actually got to go to this monstrosity, and... had a blast? It was kind of great, and I'm glad Nicholson calls out how terrific the staff was, because they completely made it work. There were also a few people there who were on the spectrum and the staff and guests really went out of their way to bring them in to the story, which was great to see. I liked the physical design a lot. They probably could have easily made it work as a more traditional hotel if they'd just built it directly behind Galaxy's Edge and ditched the shuttle. That was just a weird decision.
The price was bonkers, but the comparison point for the people it was targeted at (and presumably greenlit it) was "this is what I'm accustomed to paying for a fun weekend". It's got more to do with the intense economic stratification of America than anything else. If you're running a taxi meter in your mind the whole time, it's hard to have fun doing anything. And most of America has to keep that taxi meter running 24/7 because food, rent, etc. And it doesn't seem like Disney is pursuing those customers as much as they once did, because, well, capitalism. The cruise ship comparison is particularly weird because it's a lot easier to enjoy "I am pretending to be in Wizard Space" if you're not also simultaneously thinking "I could be at a spa in Cabo letting highly trained staff marinate me in citrus", but it's also silly to compare the two, because they're tickling different sorts of brains.
It turned out the morning we checked out was also the morning Disney announced it was shutting it down. Admittedly I was scrubbing through this and I may have missed it, so I don't know if Nicholson mentioned that this was part of a larger announcement that Disney was cancelling its decision to relocate Imagineering to Florida, primarily because of DeSantis. If you're using this project as a lab for testing out new ideas and the Imagineers are all going to be on the other coast, it doesn't make as much sense to prop it up.
posted by phooky at 6:04 AM on May 19 [43 favorites]
I am neither a Disney nor a Star Wars fan, but I actually got to go to this monstrosity, and... had a blast? It was kind of great, and I'm glad Nicholson calls out how terrific the staff was, because they completely made it work. There were also a few people there who were on the spectrum and the staff and guests really went out of their way to bring them in to the story, which was great to see. I liked the physical design a lot. They probably could have easily made it work as a more traditional hotel if they'd just built it directly behind Galaxy's Edge and ditched the shuttle. That was just a weird decision.
The price was bonkers, but the comparison point for the people it was targeted at (and presumably greenlit it) was "this is what I'm accustomed to paying for a fun weekend". It's got more to do with the intense economic stratification of America than anything else. If you're running a taxi meter in your mind the whole time, it's hard to have fun doing anything. And most of America has to keep that taxi meter running 24/7 because food, rent, etc. And it doesn't seem like Disney is pursuing those customers as much as they once did, because, well, capitalism. The cruise ship comparison is particularly weird because it's a lot easier to enjoy "I am pretending to be in Wizard Space" if you're not also simultaneously thinking "I could be at a spa in Cabo letting highly trained staff marinate me in citrus", but it's also silly to compare the two, because they're tickling different sorts of brains.
It turned out the morning we checked out was also the morning Disney announced it was shutting it down. Admittedly I was scrubbing through this and I may have missed it, so I don't know if Nicholson mentioned that this was part of a larger announcement that Disney was cancelling its decision to relocate Imagineering to Florida, primarily because of DeSantis. If you're using this project as a lab for testing out new ideas and the Imagineers are all going to be on the other coast, it doesn't make as much sense to prop it up.
posted by phooky at 6:04 AM on May 19 [43 favorites]
I’ll admit that I prefer Jenny Nicholson’s shorter videos, and this is one I probably won’t watch because of the length and subject, but she is a genius at assembling often meandering narratives into a coherent whole (her video about going to buy a giant spider is one of the best illustrations of how living during full-on COVID felt to me, despite being about a giant plush spider). She’s also the YouTube creator, along with Sarah Z, who’s going to make me want to watch a long video about an aspect of fandom that she cares about and I don’t, because she’s likely to transmit some of that enthusiasm to me (“deadpan fannish enthusiasm” is Nicholson’s genre in a nutshell).
So, if the topic is at all interesting to you, it’s probably worth a try, since it’s no longer than Dr. Mabuse, Der Spieler, which is actually very watchable if you have any affection forStar Wars German Expressionist silent crime drama. Maybe I will watch it and see if she can work her magic, although not this weekend. She is a treasure.
posted by GenjiandProust at 6:59 AM on May 19 [9 favorites]
So, if the topic is at all interesting to you, it’s probably worth a try, since it’s no longer than Dr. Mabuse, Der Spieler, which is actually very watchable if you have any affection for
posted by GenjiandProust at 6:59 AM on May 19 [9 favorites]
The problem with changing the Disney parks from a middle class, mass market brand to a wildly expensive pay to play experience is that the perception changes from "this is a fun once in a lifetime experience for children and kids at heart" to "the only people who do this are elite assholes and Disney cultists." There are plenty of people out there who hate Ron DeSantis but share his antipathy towards Disney, just for monetary reasons instead of sexual reasons.
posted by kingdead at 7:01 AM on May 19 [16 favorites]
posted by kingdead at 7:01 AM on May 19 [16 favorites]
This isn't even the first time there's been an FPP on Nicholson doing a four-hour video on an immersive theme park experience and its problems. (Speaking of which, Evermore officially closed a couple of months ago.)
posted by Halloween Jack at 7:02 AM on May 19 [18 favorites]
posted by Halloween Jack at 7:02 AM on May 19 [18 favorites]
What's interesting to me is the encouragement to costume, knowing Disney's usual approach. It sparks a bunch of questions. Is it that they feel most comfortable with costuming inside a petri dish? Do they own ideas that walk inside, given their infamously onerous intellectual property practices and the EULA that surely comes with this bill? How many 3 figure salaried persons do you think are sitting around discussing Disneybounding and creating a measured, monetized response? But then, I'm a dreamer fungenier.
posted by es_de_bah at 7:05 AM on May 19
posted by es_de_bah at 7:05 AM on May 19
From every report I've seen people loved it and the cast were really, really into it. Len Testa, a well-known theme park reviewer/lover/optimizer, wrote about his experience. He cosplayed as 'Hank Lonely', a play on Han Solo, and had a whole backstory that the cast rolled with. So much so that on subsequent trips to the Star Cruiser, the staff referenced his previous times on board.
The actor Andrew Barth Feldman (he was most recently opposite Jennifer Lawrence in 'No Hard Feelings') went on Podcast: The Ride to discuss his experience. He was so into and was playing in character that one of the cast broke briefly to tell him he had a job there if he wanted it.
It was hella expensive but it sounds like if you were into it it was amazing.
posted by mmascolino at 7:15 AM on May 19 [5 favorites]
The actor Andrew Barth Feldman (he was most recently opposite Jennifer Lawrence in 'No Hard Feelings') went on Podcast: The Ride to discuss his experience. He was so into and was playing in character that one of the cast broke briefly to tell him he had a job there if he wanted it.
It was hella expensive but it sounds like if you were into it it was amazing.
posted by mmascolino at 7:15 AM on May 19 [5 favorites]
I’m the first person to ding an overlong YT video, but this was really good. I watched the first two hours and was very impressed. However, time constraints mean I skipped ahead to section 20 (robbed) where Nicholson lays out a very coherent argument: Star Wars hotel failed because of Disney’s current fiscally-miserly approach, which values shareholder profits over visitor experience. Visitors are nickel-and-dimed for things that used to be free, constantly upsold on experiences, but the cohesive whole of the visit isn’t as good as it says it is. As the most expensive part, SW hotel suffered from cuts first.
posted by The River Ivel at 7:25 AM on May 19 [6 favorites]
posted by The River Ivel at 7:25 AM on May 19 [6 favorites]
It's 4 hours of amazing content and well worth watching. I'm 2 hours in and I Hate Disney and I'm so sad she didn't get the game she wanted or deserved.
posted by Comstar at 7:28 AM on May 19 [4 favorites]
posted by Comstar at 7:28 AM on May 19 [4 favorites]
Secret Cinema is a London experience where you cosplay for an afternoon or evening around a movie. I enjoyed Empire Strikes Back in 2015, but can't imagine a whole weekend or fortnight in a hotel.
And especially not at that price.
posted by k3ninho at 7:31 AM on May 19 [3 favorites]
And especially not at that price.
posted by k3ninho at 7:31 AM on May 19 [3 favorites]
MetaFilter’s own Adian Hon wrote his own lengthy review/analysis of Galactic Starcruiser last year.
posted by mbrubeck at 8:05 AM on May 19 [5 favorites]
posted by mbrubeck at 8:05 AM on May 19 [5 favorites]
I have no idea why theme park companies aren't making her rich paying her consulting fees.
Disney has no shortage of people already on payroll who are constantly coming up with ideas for improvement that are as good or better than Jenny's, I'm sure. They're generally not the ones in charge, though.
posted by tclark at 8:13 AM on May 19 [2 favorites]
Disney has no shortage of people already on payroll who are constantly coming up with ideas for improvement that are as good or better than Jenny's, I'm sure. They're generally not the ones in charge, though.
posted by tclark at 8:13 AM on May 19 [2 favorites]
This is I think the first video of hers I’ve seen, but it’s very good at half an hour in so far. I doubt I’ll watch all four hours but I don’t think I’ll regret any of the time I spent on it. I would never have gone to the Star Wars hotel (excuse me Star Wars: Galactic Starcruiser™️) in a million years but I’ve been curious about the story behind the almost immediate failure of this immense investment.
posted by Horace Rumpole at 8:25 AM on May 19 [1 favorite]
posted by Horace Rumpole at 8:25 AM on May 19 [1 favorite]
the almost immediate failure of this immense investment
This phrase made me sit up and take notice-- the idea that this was an investment rather than an experiment. For all the griping about how profit-driven Disney is, I don't think anyone had an expectation this was going to be a big money-maker. It was clearly trying something new (for them, anyway). That can be an expensive process. If it was going to pay off, it wasn't going to be by directly making money, but by testing ideas which might be valuable in the future. Some of the ideas under test were about audience interaction and cosplay; some were about fully immersive experiences and time bounding; others were about testing the limits of pricing and merchandising. Even if each of these ideas was deemed a failure, they succeeded in testing them.
(Slightly off topic but if you're interested in people testing the boundaries of audience interaction and what even constitutes an audience or even a show, The Punchdrunk Encyclopaedia is a solid read.)
posted by phooky at 8:51 AM on May 19 [5 favorites]
This phrase made me sit up and take notice-- the idea that this was an investment rather than an experiment. For all the griping about how profit-driven Disney is, I don't think anyone had an expectation this was going to be a big money-maker. It was clearly trying something new (for them, anyway). That can be an expensive process. If it was going to pay off, it wasn't going to be by directly making money, but by testing ideas which might be valuable in the future. Some of the ideas under test were about audience interaction and cosplay; some were about fully immersive experiences and time bounding; others were about testing the limits of pricing and merchandising. Even if each of these ideas was deemed a failure, they succeeded in testing them.
(Slightly off topic but if you're interested in people testing the boundaries of audience interaction and what even constitutes an audience or even a show, The Punchdrunk Encyclopaedia is a solid read.)
posted by phooky at 8:51 AM on May 19 [5 favorites]
Thanks for the link to my writeup, mbrubeck! Forgive me for cross-posting some of this comment from Reddit, but I think it's applicable here:
Having gone to the Star Wars hotel and paid for every penny of it, I’m kind of disappointed by Jenny’s outright dismissal of anyone who actually enjoyed it as either a shill or a cult member (something she repeats in a video on Overpriced Experiences for her Patreon members). I definitely didn’t love it as much as many did, but I had a good time and thought it was incredibly unique.
It’s totally fair for her to say she thinks it sucks - she clearly suffered some kind of fatal error with her app that completely ruined her progression through the story. The app worked fine for me, to the point where it felt like there was too much to do, but I would’ve been just as mad as her if mine bugged out. It’s definitely unacceptable given the cost. Having said that, I think this is a rare occurrence and it feels deeply incurious and uncharitable to assume that anyone who did have fun is somehow deluded.
In terms of cost: yes, it’s incredibly expensive. For some people, it’s worth it - especially if you like role play. I laughed when she said the max it should cost is $1000 per adult - that’s less than the cost of blockbuster LARPs that are basically non-profit, like the epic BSG-themed ones. Again, it’s fair to say you don’t want to pay that, but it really is what it costs, as phooky notes. The comparison is not to a nice room on a Disney cruise, but on a luxury cruise with just a few hundred people – if that – and with a much higher staff to guest ratio.
It’s a shame this video will be the final word on the Starcruiser for millions of people. It’s funny but it’s very much incomplete. For what it's worth, I've designed many ARGs and immersive experiences, and I've consulted for Disney Imagineering – but not for many years. Anyone who reads my stuff will tell you I'm not shy with my criticism!
posted by adrianhon at 9:00 AM on May 19 [34 favorites]
Having gone to the Star Wars hotel and paid for every penny of it, I’m kind of disappointed by Jenny’s outright dismissal of anyone who actually enjoyed it as either a shill or a cult member (something she repeats in a video on Overpriced Experiences for her Patreon members). I definitely didn’t love it as much as many did, but I had a good time and thought it was incredibly unique.
It’s totally fair for her to say she thinks it sucks - she clearly suffered some kind of fatal error with her app that completely ruined her progression through the story. The app worked fine for me, to the point where it felt like there was too much to do, but I would’ve been just as mad as her if mine bugged out. It’s definitely unacceptable given the cost. Having said that, I think this is a rare occurrence and it feels deeply incurious and uncharitable to assume that anyone who did have fun is somehow deluded.
In terms of cost: yes, it’s incredibly expensive. For some people, it’s worth it - especially if you like role play. I laughed when she said the max it should cost is $1000 per adult - that’s less than the cost of blockbuster LARPs that are basically non-profit, like the epic BSG-themed ones. Again, it’s fair to say you don’t want to pay that, but it really is what it costs, as phooky notes. The comparison is not to a nice room on a Disney cruise, but on a luxury cruise with just a few hundred people – if that – and with a much higher staff to guest ratio.
It’s a shame this video will be the final word on the Starcruiser for millions of people. It’s funny but it’s very much incomplete. For what it's worth, I've designed many ARGs and immersive experiences, and I've consulted for Disney Imagineering – but not for many years. Anyone who reads my stuff will tell you I'm not shy with my criticism!
posted by adrianhon at 9:00 AM on May 19 [34 favorites]
Meh, I agree with the length complaint. Regardless of her bona fides, she's not an efficient communicator. Dare I say, she's actually quite boring most of the time. She just sorta talks and rambles. She needs a video editor in addition to a script editor.
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 9:13 AM on May 19 [1 favorite]
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 9:13 AM on May 19 [1 favorite]
>what even constitutes an audience or even a show, The Punchdrunk Encyclopaedia is a solid read.
ah, I see that live theatre is equivalent to what I went to see in LA in '89, Tamara.
Acting skills really makes or breaks this kind of theatre, well all kinds of theatre I guess.
This + Apple Vision Pro technology might be interesting, taking the staging of that dismal Willy Wonka pop-up experience attempt in Glasgow and punch it up with virtual visuals.
I was tangentially involved in this sort of LBE (location-based entertainment) in the 90s but the headsets weren't good enough, the content sucked, and the hardware couldn't stand up to the wear & tear of daily use, either. But we tried!
posted by torokunai at 9:13 AM on May 19 [1 favorite]
ah, I see that live theatre is equivalent to what I went to see in LA in '89, Tamara.
Acting skills really makes or breaks this kind of theatre, well all kinds of theatre I guess.
This + Apple Vision Pro technology might be interesting, taking the staging of that dismal Willy Wonka pop-up experience attempt in Glasgow and punch it up with virtual visuals.
I was tangentially involved in this sort of LBE (location-based entertainment) in the 90s but the headsets weren't good enough, the content sucked, and the hardware couldn't stand up to the wear & tear of daily use, either. But we tried!
posted by torokunai at 9:13 AM on May 19 [1 favorite]
>She needs a video editor in addition to a script editor.
With her one video per year output, that's 5 minutes/week of watching. You can do it!!
posted by torokunai at 9:15 AM on May 19 [5 favorites]
With her one video per year output, that's 5 minutes/week of watching. You can do it!!
posted by torokunai at 9:15 AM on May 19 [5 favorites]
Mod note: One removed; it's a sort of misogynistic trope to put down women for their voices or manner of speaking rather than responding to their ideas or works.
posted by taz (staff) at 9:25 AM on May 19 [35 favorites]
posted by taz (staff) at 9:25 AM on May 19 [35 favorites]
Paying $6K to stay in a tiny, windowless hotel room and hang out with theme park employees dressed in sci fi costumes seems like a genuinely incomprehensible use of resources to me. Even if you are dead set on using the money for transitory experiences, there are so many other things you could do, that would last so much longer
Plus I think trying to roleplay with random park employees would make me cringe right out of my skin.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 9:46 AM on May 19 [8 favorites]
Plus I think trying to roleplay with random park employees would make me cringe right out of my skin.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 9:46 AM on May 19 [8 favorites]
Well I fell asleep about 2 hours in but will catch up and finish because I enjoy her style. So far, it's amazing the difference between the conditions for the acting staff here and in her Evermore video.
posted by Glinn at 9:49 AM on May 19
posted by Glinn at 9:49 AM on May 19
only responding to the comments not having watched the video... so, WestStarWarsWorld?
posted by kokaku at 9:53 AM on May 19
posted by kokaku at 9:53 AM on May 19
>I have no idea why theme park companies aren't making her rich paying her consulting fees.
They should also have her read scripts for animated movies and fix them. Her dressing down of Frozen 2 was razor sharp.
posted by Catblack at 10:14 AM on May 19 [7 favorites]
They should also have her read scripts for animated movies and fix them. Her dressing down of Frozen 2 was razor sharp.
posted by Catblack at 10:14 AM on May 19 [7 favorites]
It was about $1200 per person for a family of four, which is kinda in the ballpark of very expensive concert tickets. Or you could buy everyone their own bottle of Glenfiddich 30 year instead.
posted by credulous at 10:20 AM on May 19
posted by credulous at 10:20 AM on May 19
Honestly hearing about it I’m a little bit sad this thing didn’t work out, either money-wise or in terms of the gameplay experience. Hope there’s some lessons learned other than “never try anything like that again”.
posted by Artw at 10:31 AM on May 19 [3 favorites]
posted by Artw at 10:31 AM on May 19 [3 favorites]
The More Civilised Age podcast had an episode where they recorded their impressions of going on it. I believe it was a tier goal for their Patreon so they weren’t quite spending their own money but they did call out how much of a privilege it was to get to go. It sounded quite awesome even if they couldn’t quite recommend you go. It’s been a long time since I listened to it.
posted by DoveBrown at 10:35 AM on May 19 [5 favorites]
posted by DoveBrown at 10:35 AM on May 19 [5 favorites]
Was this "ride" aimed at young adults, families, kids, Star Wars fanatics most likely. I likely not the target audience. However I have a somewhat tangential story. I worked for a jewelry vendor in Orlando that made Disney jewelry. Occasionally I was asked to deliver product thru the back gate to be picked up. It was fun to see the cast members on break...Nothing crushes the dream like seeing Minnie Mouse puffing away on a cigarette while holding her costume head in one of her arms.
posted by Czjewel at 10:40 AM on May 19
posted by Czjewel at 10:40 AM on May 19
DoveBrown: The More Civilised Age podcast had an episode where they recorded their impressions of going on it. I believe it was a tier goal for their Patreon so they weren’t quite spending their own money
I just recently listened to that episode of A More Civilized Age. Their verdict, to give the tl;dr, is that while some aspects of it were very good, it had the basic problem of being designed for families with kids, but to work from a financial standpoint it had to run all year round, so given school schedules, for most of the year, most of the guests were adults, and the facilities didn't support that (e.g. the bar was tiny). And that led to various downstream effects which made the experience less than ideal.
Also, and that's a wider problem with the Star Wars universe under Disney, the story is set during the sequel trilogy era, and that's Star Wars' garbage tier era. No one really gives a hoot about the First Order, and while Rey is a good character, she can't redeem all the things thar are wrong with that version of the setting.
Oh, and they'd accidentally saved up more money than intended of their Patreon revenue, it wasn't a tier bonus per se.
posted by Kattullus at 10:41 AM on May 19 [3 favorites]
I just recently listened to that episode of A More Civilized Age. Their verdict, to give the tl;dr, is that while some aspects of it were very good, it had the basic problem of being designed for families with kids, but to work from a financial standpoint it had to run all year round, so given school schedules, for most of the year, most of the guests were adults, and the facilities didn't support that (e.g. the bar was tiny). And that led to various downstream effects which made the experience less than ideal.
Also, and that's a wider problem with the Star Wars universe under Disney, the story is set during the sequel trilogy era, and that's Star Wars' garbage tier era. No one really gives a hoot about the First Order, and while Rey is a good character, she can't redeem all the things thar are wrong with that version of the setting.
Oh, and they'd accidentally saved up more money than intended of their Patreon revenue, it wasn't a tier bonus per se.
posted by Kattullus at 10:41 AM on May 19 [3 favorites]
Mod note: One more removed; it's a sort of misogynistic trope to put down women for their voices or manner of speaking rather than responding to their ideas or works. Please don't.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 10:47 AM on May 19 [16 favorites]
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 10:47 AM on May 19 [16 favorites]
IIRC there’s two episodes and the drunker one is patreon locked?
posted by Artw at 10:49 AM on May 19 [2 favorites]
posted by Artw at 10:49 AM on May 19 [2 favorites]
Well, that was a lot of fun. The zingers keep going all the way through the four hours. And now I'm wondering about this ending song?
Okay yes it's a custom song. Hilarious!
posted by hippybear at 10:54 AM on May 19 [1 favorite]
Okay yes it's a custom song. Hilarious!
posted by hippybear at 10:54 AM on May 19 [1 favorite]
Having never watched a Jenny Nicholson video before, I was intrigued by the topic but not really willing to spend a massive four hours to watch the whole thing. And yet somehow I ended up watching all four hours. It's that good of a tale.
I think mostly I was amazed at just how many ways Disney seemed to fail in the conception and execution of this project, and she makes a pretty convincing case later on for why this project was probably unsalvageable without pretty significant changes to the formula. It's also interesting to me how significant parts of the concept seem to be built on apparently solid foundations; learning about the various gameplay experiences at Disney parks and even some activities that turned out to be covert playtests for Galaxy's Edge made me wonder briefly why they didn't just do subtly tweaked variants of those successful attempts, rather than what they ended up with. (That gets answered in the video too, of course.)
posted by chrominance at 11:08 AM on May 19 [5 favorites]
I think mostly I was amazed at just how many ways Disney seemed to fail in the conception and execution of this project, and she makes a pretty convincing case later on for why this project was probably unsalvageable without pretty significant changes to the formula. It's also interesting to me how significant parts of the concept seem to be built on apparently solid foundations; learning about the various gameplay experiences at Disney parks and even some activities that turned out to be covert playtests for Galaxy's Edge made me wonder briefly why they didn't just do subtly tweaked variants of those successful attempts, rather than what they ended up with. (That gets answered in the video too, of course.)
posted by chrominance at 11:08 AM on May 19 [5 favorites]
Oh my god guys, you can pause the video and pick it up. You're not bound by a curse to stay for four hours if you press play. There are even chapters. A lot like... episodes. Wow wonderfully unoffensive that a the four episode season just dropped. You don't have to 'binge' it!
posted by wellifyouinsist at 11:30 AM on May 19 [21 favorites]
posted by wellifyouinsist at 11:30 AM on May 19 [21 favorites]
I know we've already had to nuke a couple of sexist comments complaining about Jenny's voice, but I'm having trouble seeing the "she needs an editor" line as anything but rank sexism, or maybe rank ageism since Jenny presents as somewhat young and covers youth-coded fandom culture. This isn't a four-hour stream-of-consciousness ramble. Jenny has an editor. She even cites her sources, and the video quotes heavily from lots of first- and third-party media, which accounts for a lot of its length. This is the video she wanted to put out. You don't have to like it, but it is wrong to state that it hasn't been appropriately edited. That's just a cheap, thoughtless insult. Do better.
posted by angrynerd at 11:36 AM on May 19 [47 favorites]
posted by angrynerd at 11:36 AM on May 19 [47 favorites]
I unfortunately do use a web browser which will erase my hard drive if I pause any video, so I literally had to watch it all at once.
You people with other computer systems are lucky.
posted by hippybear at 11:37 AM on May 19 [12 favorites]
You people with other computer systems are lucky.
posted by hippybear at 11:37 AM on May 19 [12 favorites]
I am glad to hear that the moderation standards have come to include women's voices, because I'm sick to death of hearing "too much vocal fry" as a reason not to engage with really quality topics. I will make a point of flagging those in the future.
posted by hippybear at 11:39 AM on May 19 [21 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 11:39 AM on May 19 [21 favorites]
50-y-o dude here with no horse in this race who found her style quite engaging, and only turned it off after 2 hours because I really do need to go take care of other things on this fine Sunday morning.
posted by simra at 11:47 AM on May 19 [7 favorites]
posted by simra at 11:47 AM on May 19 [7 favorites]
Also it made me want to re-watch Rogue One which is hands down the best movie of them all and I will fight anyone who disagrees.
posted by simra at 11:48 AM on May 19 [8 favorites]
posted by simra at 11:48 AM on May 19 [8 favorites]
Well if you like Rogue one and in depth podcasts…
(Spotify link because it does the annoying thing where you can’t find an Independant website for the podcast, other podcast providers are available.)
posted by Artw at 11:54 AM on May 19 [3 favorites]
(Spotify link because it does the annoying thing where you can’t find an Independant website for the podcast, other podcast providers are available.)
posted by Artw at 11:54 AM on May 19 [3 favorites]
To the suggestion that she should have been hired as a consultant by Disney, absolutely! Missed opportunity, Mickey. She may not be my cuppa, but I won't disparage her expertise and interest.
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 12:14 PM on May 19 [1 favorite]
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 12:14 PM on May 19 [1 favorite]
I'm going to respond to this comment on my comment, though: '"she needs an editor" line as anything but rank sexism, or maybe rank ageism since Jenny presents as somewhat young and covers youth-coded fandom culture.'
I respond with the following: baloney. I like what she says but it takes soooooo long for her to say it. That's not a sexist comment. For instance, I don't watch Hbomberwhatevertheheckthatguysnameis for exactly the same reason. Their videos are so much useless filling and graphics. It's just not good presentation. Neither seem to be capable of a short intro of "Here's the main points I'm going to be talking about for FOUR hours". Like, cmon, that's just basic presentation organization.
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 12:21 PM on May 19
I respond with the following: baloney. I like what she says but it takes soooooo long for her to say it. That's not a sexist comment. For instance, I don't watch Hbomberwhatevertheheckthatguysnameis for exactly the same reason. Their videos are so much useless filling and graphics. It's just not good presentation. Neither seem to be capable of a short intro of "Here's the main points I'm going to be talking about for FOUR hours". Like, cmon, that's just basic presentation organization.
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 12:21 PM on May 19
Gonna throw it out their that observing long thing is long is in fact not a particularly useful or valuable insight and probably not ever worth sharing.
posted by Artw at 12:27 PM on May 19 [25 favorites]
posted by Artw at 12:27 PM on May 19 [25 favorites]
Sometimes the point of the journey are the steps along the way, not the destination.
posted by hippybear at 12:27 PM on May 19 [3 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 12:27 PM on May 19 [3 favorites]
We scrapped prior evening-media plans, yesterday, once my partner announced a new Nicholson epic. Neither of us are Disney people, but Nicholson's unsparing critique of properties she clearly loves is just so damn fun.
posted by german_bight at 12:27 PM on May 19 [7 favorites]
posted by german_bight at 12:27 PM on May 19 [7 favorites]
For instance, I don't watch Hbomberwhatevertheheckthatguysnameis for exactly the same reason.Ageism it is, then! Thanks for clearing that up for us.
posted by angrynerd at 12:38 PM on May 19 [12 favorites]
Jenny Nicholson videos remind me of Action Button videos: they are excessive, seemingly obsessive deep dives into geeky topics that I'm only tangentially interested in.
I think they work, to the extent that they work, by committing to the bit, and the length is part of the bit. So are the costumes, the actually doing the thing (playing the games, going to the theme park, buying the merch), the inclusion of seemingly personal details, and the particular point of view. I don't click on one of these videos for a short gloss, read by the blandest announcer money can buy.
I this case, I clicked without looking at the time, because I wanted the feeling of "wow, there's a lot of detail here, Jesus, it's already midnight, how long is this video anyway?" and I was not disappointed.
posted by surlyben at 12:47 PM on May 19 [2 favorites]
I think they work, to the extent that they work, by committing to the bit, and the length is part of the bit. So are the costumes, the actually doing the thing (playing the games, going to the theme park, buying the merch), the inclusion of seemingly personal details, and the particular point of view. I don't click on one of these videos for a short gloss, read by the blandest announcer money can buy.
I this case, I clicked without looking at the time, because I wanted the feeling of "wow, there's a lot of detail here, Jesus, it's already midnight, how long is this video anyway?" and I was not disappointed.
posted by surlyben at 12:47 PM on May 19 [2 favorites]
Biggest thing I’m getting from the video that any experience like this at any similar price is going to defeat itself by being a nightmare of constant immersion breaking FOMO.
posted by Artw at 12:54 PM on May 19 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 12:54 PM on May 19 [1 favorite]
I linked long videos in the past so I was prepared for the comments. That's why I now try to mention the length of the video in the post.
posted by Pendragon at 12:56 PM on May 19 [4 favorites]
posted by Pendragon at 12:56 PM on May 19 [4 favorites]
Stay till the end for the worker exploitation exposé stuff.
posted by Artw at 1:02 PM on May 19 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 1:02 PM on May 19 [1 favorite]
100 rooms with twenty+ "up" hours of "immersion." You'd think that for the price, you'd damn well make sure that each room had some singular ~10 minute event catered just for them. If only they had a model for that, like say having five different rooms with five different Mickey Mouse characters that families took pictures with, get 'em in and out. Oh wait.
Maybe there was one originally scheduled, and they took the scissors to that as well. More room for storage!
The video was depressing in that the concept failed in so many different ways, over and over, not just for Jenny Nicholson, but for a large number of people who put down the giant wad of cash.
posted by user92371 at 1:06 PM on May 19 [2 favorites]
Maybe there was one originally scheduled, and they took the scissors to that as well. More room for storage!
The video was depressing in that the concept failed in so many different ways, over and over, not just for Jenny Nicholson, but for a large number of people who put down the giant wad of cash.
posted by user92371 at 1:06 PM on May 19 [2 favorites]
Artw I don't have spotify, what podcast are you suggesting? I love me some Rogue One!
posted by Wretch729 at 1:08 PM on May 19
posted by Wretch729 at 1:08 PM on May 19
Eeeh, there is a long history of people hating on Nicholson for her voice, for looking too young, for her manner of speaking, her general demeanor, her staging of her videos, etc, etc, et-fucking-cetera. She makes jokes about it, which I will leave for you to discover in shorter videos, which are also worth watching, especially the ones about... movies and topics you are interested in. I mean, if you're going to hate on SF/F nostalgia, absurd deep dives into fannish subjects, quirky humor, and a host who really commits to a bit, well I do not know how you can even look at the Blue without combusting. (yes, I know hating things is also part of the site's culture, but not an actually attractive one.)
posted by GenjiandProust at 1:09 PM on May 19 [13 favorites]
posted by GenjiandProust at 1:09 PM on May 19 [13 favorites]
Watched about five minutes so farThecontent is interestingIt is nice to hear about the experienceBut she does this thingThis thing a lot of Youtubers doWhere she ruthlessly edits out the pauses between her sentencesIt rapidly becomes exhaustingI guess it's done to shorten an already four hour videoBut it makes it harder for me to follow
posted by JHarris at 1:15 PM on May 19 [5 favorites]
posted by JHarris at 1:15 PM on May 19 [5 favorites]
Biggest thing I’m getting from the video that any experience like this at any similar price is going to defeat itself by being a nightmare of constant immersion breaking FOMO.See, my big takeaway was that this experiment could have been a success if the focus had been much more squarely on avoiding immersion-breaking FOMO (well put!). Someone would have to run the numbers on whether this would have been economically feasible for Disney, but imagine a truly all-inclusive experience with no upgrades for private photo sessions, character interactions, or special dinner seatings. The resort would have to be staffed allowing every guest to have the same level of contact with at least some cast members, without being constantly reminded that the people who paid more are getting a better, more premium experience.
Not only would that provide a better experience, but even at a potentially higher price point, the fact that you're not constantly calling attention to the fact that you could pay more to get more makes cost as a concept less psychologically available to the guests. I've been to an all inclusive resort, and let me tell you that part of the reason it feels "worth it" is because, if done right, you never think about the cost at any point during your stay. You just enjoy your room, the food, and the activities and don't think about the expense nearly as much as you would if you were being nickel and dimed for every little upgrade.
To me, the most devastating part of the video was Jenny's footage of the dinner show (which, incidentally, was super easy to find because the video is well organized and well edited). This isn't an existing facility where the designers have to work around awkward sight lines they have no control over. The entire resort and everything in it was built especially to house this entertainment experience. It's unforgiveable to design a performance space where some tables have no view of the floor show but a completely unobstructed view all of the fancy people who shelled out for the "Captain's Table" upgrade. You don't need to be an entertainment savant to know that when the experience consists of being repeatedly paraded through the first class section of the airplane and reminded that you don't get any of these special perks, people are going to end up a little bit salty about money.
posted by angrynerd at 1:31 PM on May 19 [20 favorites]
That's why I now try to mention the length of the video in the post.
Honestly, I have thought that it is Best Practices to always put the length of the video, simply out of respect for fellow MeFites. I've been doing it for years, and am always pleased when I see others adopt the convention.
posted by hippybear at 1:38 PM on May 19 [4 favorites]
Honestly, I have thought that it is Best Practices to always put the length of the video, simply out of respect for fellow MeFites. I've been doing it for years, and am always pleased when I see others adopt the convention.
posted by hippybear at 1:38 PM on May 19 [4 favorites]
You can’t upgrade for extra character interactions and the photo sessions (which a friend got for me) aren’t all that. You can pay for the Captain’s Table to be sat in the centre of the dining room, but other than that single table, all seating is otherwise assigned randomly.
While I got a very good view of the dinner theatre, I did not like it - it felt pretty cheesy to me. I think she was very unlucky in her table assignment, though if I were sitting where she was and I was into the theatre, I would have stood up and moved a couple of meters for the five minutes that were plot-essential.
posted by adrianhon at 1:51 PM on May 19 [3 favorites]
While I got a very good view of the dinner theatre, I did not like it - it felt pretty cheesy to me. I think she was very unlucky in her table assignment, though if I were sitting where she was and I was into the theatre, I would have stood up and moved a couple of meters for the five minutes that were plot-essential.
posted by adrianhon at 1:51 PM on May 19 [3 favorites]
I think she was very unlucky in her table assignment
I'm kind of left wondering if the AI that is apparently supposed to coordinate everything didn't look at her apparent lack of engagement with the game, which seems to have come about through some kind of glitch, and decided that she and her sister weren't that into aspect of the hotel and they might be okay with being tucked out of the way from the action?
I mean, there really is no excuse for a custom designed space to have such completely obstructed views of a showcase performance.
I am left to wonder if I can find the album anywhere online. Some of that music seemed to maybe bang a bit?
The ending song for this video bangs quite a bit.
posted by hippybear at 2:01 PM on May 19 [1 favorite]
I'm kind of left wondering if the AI that is apparently supposed to coordinate everything didn't look at her apparent lack of engagement with the game, which seems to have come about through some kind of glitch, and decided that she and her sister weren't that into aspect of the hotel and they might be okay with being tucked out of the way from the action?
I mean, there really is no excuse for a custom designed space to have such completely obstructed views of a showcase performance.
I am left to wonder if I can find the album anywhere online. Some of that music seemed to maybe bang a bit?
The ending song for this video bangs quite a bit.
posted by hippybear at 2:01 PM on May 19 [1 favorite]
TBH from accounts I suspect whatever software they had directing things wouldn’t have been doing anything too complicated, relying more on the illusion of sophistication, and may have been as good as random. Also when it comes down to it to make the overall experience work everything probably needs to work even if it is random. A big pillar in the way certainly runs contrary to that.
posted by Artw at 2:10 PM on May 19 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 2:10 PM on May 19 [1 favorite]
I am quite sure the tables are assigned in advance of any proper game interaction. I am pretty sure there is no overarching AI that manages those things.
The music is around, probably on streaming!
posted by adrianhon at 2:10 PM on May 19
The music is around, probably on streaming!
posted by adrianhon at 2:10 PM on May 19
I am quite sure the tables are assigned in advance of any proper game interaction.
The implication here is that she was assigned this table for taking the cheapest cabin possible and purchasing none of the upgrades she didn't know were available.
I mean, I wouldn't put it past Disney to do something like that, but it definitely will not result in a repeat visit.
posted by hippybear at 2:13 PM on May 19 [2 favorites]
The implication here is that she was assigned this table for taking the cheapest cabin possible and purchasing none of the upgrades she didn't know were available.
I mean, I wouldn't put it past Disney to do something like that, but it definitely will not result in a repeat visit.
posted by hippybear at 2:13 PM on May 19 [2 favorites]
95% of people cannot pay for the Captain’s Table. From what I saw, there were very few photo sessions - perhaps at most 20% of guests took them. There are literally no other upgrades to be had.
In this thread you have two people who went to the hotel and liked it, though not wholeheartedly. One of them (me) was interested enough to write 12,000 words on it. No-one has to take me word as truth but I would encourage people to consider that Jenny may not actually be providing the full picture either.
posted by adrianhon at 2:17 PM on May 19 [7 favorites]
In this thread you have two people who went to the hotel and liked it, though not wholeheartedly. One of them (me) was interested enough to write 12,000 words on it. No-one has to take me word as truth but I would encourage people to consider that Jenny may not actually be providing the full picture either.
posted by adrianhon at 2:17 PM on May 19 [7 favorites]
Star Wars: Galactic Starcruiser Original Soundtrack [YouTube playlist]
posted by hippybear at 2:17 PM on May 19 [2 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 2:17 PM on May 19 [2 favorites]
You can’t upgrade for extra character interactions and the photo sessions (which a friend got for me) aren’t all that. You can pay for the Captain’s Table to be sat in the centre of the dining room, but other than that single table, all seating is otherwise assigned randomly.
She mentions that the Captain's Table upgrade apparently comes with extra in-character face time with some of the performers, was that not true? She would've only learned about the Captain's Table after the fact because no one had mentioned upgrades to her while booking, so I would've assumed she got this information from internet research.
posted by chrominance at 2:24 PM on May 19
She mentions that the Captain's Table upgrade apparently comes with extra in-character face time with some of the performers, was that not true? She would've only learned about the Captain's Table after the fact because no one had mentioned upgrades to her while booking, so I would've assumed she got this information from internet research.
posted by chrominance at 2:24 PM on May 19
Yes, I was seated near the Captain’s Table. I recall the Captain making a bit of small talk with them for a few minutes. Various actors include the guest and main villain also did the rounds of other tables to chat with guests.
posted by adrianhon at 2:37 PM on May 19
posted by adrianhon at 2:37 PM on May 19
There's a lot of defence of what ultimately is the indefensible - it failed because of enshitification because Disney decided to abuse their guests for higher profits. The last chapter covers that well and explains all before it.
The failure might be the canary in the coal mine, but it looks like there's enough people who will defend enshitification that it won't matter anyway.
posted by Comstar at 2:40 PM on May 19 [7 favorites]
The failure might be the canary in the coal mine, but it looks like there's enough people who will defend enshitification that it won't matter anyway.
posted by Comstar at 2:40 PM on May 19 [7 favorites]
I mean, so, like I watch a ton of stuff about Disney because I find the culture fascinating.
And character meal restaurants are a GIGANTIC bump in price above just going to a normal meal. They're always table service, and the characters do indeed come around to your table in rotation for interactions. Some places are better than others for this, but it's always mentioned that these restaurants, with maybe a couple of exceptions, are much more expensive than a regular meal.
I am curious what the cost differential might have been. She really doesn't talk much about that kind of thing, unless I missed it. She does mention prices for building a lightsaber or a droid and for the picture package, but I did miss the cost upgrade for the Captain's Table. And I wonder if that would have been a blanket upgrade or for only one dinner service with a second one costing extra.
posted by hippybear at 2:42 PM on May 19
And character meal restaurants are a GIGANTIC bump in price above just going to a normal meal. They're always table service, and the characters do indeed come around to your table in rotation for interactions. Some places are better than others for this, but it's always mentioned that these restaurants, with maybe a couple of exceptions, are much more expensive than a regular meal.
I am curious what the cost differential might have been. She really doesn't talk much about that kind of thing, unless I missed it. She does mention prices for building a lightsaber or a droid and for the picture package, but I did miss the cost upgrade for the Captain's Table. And I wonder if that would have been a blanket upgrade or for only one dinner service with a second one costing extra.
posted by hippybear at 2:42 PM on May 19
Skeet thread from C. Spike Trotman (of Iron Comics fame) about the video, containing a tl;dr (and spoiler, I guess?) about the ending of the video and its criticism of Disney.
posted by Halloween Jack at 2:49 PM on May 19 [2 favorites]
posted by Halloween Jack at 2:49 PM on May 19 [2 favorites]
My sister in-law lives in Orlando, so my wife and I visited Star Wars Land at Disney, just before the pandemic was a big thing. We are casual Star Wars fans. We very much enjoyed the Star Wars land area, and it was in January so no excessive heat or humidity. We did not do the Star Wars hotel.
I am shocked by how crummy this hotel experience looks versus the regular Star Wars land area. The parts of the park we saw were intensely detailed, and it felt very much like the set of a real SW location... a run down town occupied by Storm Troopers. So much intricate detail and so much thought went into all the set dressings, even the area that looked like an open air market. It was absolutely beautiful to look at even if you had never seen the films! It was just the two of us, and we somehow managed to check out the Cantina (which was otherwise booked solid) and the Cantina in Star Wars land absolutely blows away the stuff shown in this video. Every little area in the park was fun to examine and look at, and it was immensely creative. And I am not a Disney fan in general!
I know this video is just shot on cell phones, but the difference in quality is flabbergasting. This hotel doesn't look horrible, but it's not nearly as "Star Wars" as the theme park, by a huge margin! The Cantina in the park was just amazing, truly amazing in its detail. Felt like a run down space-wizard bar full of bubbling vats and weird creatures, an animatronic alien DJ (better than it sounds!) and just so much more detail that I'm not going to list it all. There were also really fun scripted moments that happen while in the bar.
I can hardly believe how half-assed this hotel looks compared to the theme park. I have watched about half the video and intend to watch more later. Thanks for the link.
posted by SoberHighland at 2:51 PM on May 19 [6 favorites]
I am shocked by how crummy this hotel experience looks versus the regular Star Wars land area. The parts of the park we saw were intensely detailed, and it felt very much like the set of a real SW location... a run down town occupied by Storm Troopers. So much intricate detail and so much thought went into all the set dressings, even the area that looked like an open air market. It was absolutely beautiful to look at even if you had never seen the films! It was just the two of us, and we somehow managed to check out the Cantina (which was otherwise booked solid) and the Cantina in Star Wars land absolutely blows away the stuff shown in this video. Every little area in the park was fun to examine and look at, and it was immensely creative. And I am not a Disney fan in general!
I know this video is just shot on cell phones, but the difference in quality is flabbergasting. This hotel doesn't look horrible, but it's not nearly as "Star Wars" as the theme park, by a huge margin! The Cantina in the park was just amazing, truly amazing in its detail. Felt like a run down space-wizard bar full of bubbling vats and weird creatures, an animatronic alien DJ (better than it sounds!) and just so much more detail that I'm not going to list it all. There were also really fun scripted moments that happen while in the bar.
I can hardly believe how half-assed this hotel looks compared to the theme park. I have watched about half the video and intend to watch more later. Thanks for the link.
posted by SoberHighland at 2:51 PM on May 19 [6 favorites]
I'm about a third of the way through the video, and it's excellent! As many others have mentioned, very easy to watch a bit, take a break, and them come back. I'll probably finish it by the end of Monday.
It's already pretty evident that Disney completely screwed this up. I would LOVE a tell-all behind the scenes book from someone at Disney at the time. I strongly suspect there is a great story hear about different parts of Disney fighting over this thing (Imagineering vs marketing vs bean-counters, at least), and in the end giving us a big pile of dog poo in a corporate 'camel is a horse designed by committee' kind of way.
Oh, and if you like Rogue One and long-form video essays, may I suggest LadyKnightTheBrave?
posted by Frayed Knot at 3:00 PM on May 19 [3 favorites]
It's already pretty evident that Disney completely screwed this up. I would LOVE a tell-all behind the scenes book from someone at Disney at the time. I strongly suspect there is a great story hear about different parts of Disney fighting over this thing (Imagineering vs marketing vs bean-counters, at least), and in the end giving us a big pile of dog poo in a corporate 'camel is a horse designed by committee' kind of way.
Oh, and if you like Rogue One and long-form video essays, may I suggest LadyKnightTheBrave?
posted by Frayed Knot at 3:00 PM on May 19 [3 favorites]
I would encourage people to consider that Jenny may not actually be providing the full picture either.
Well of course not, there was a pole in the way!
posted by gc at 3:36 PM on May 19 [37 favorites]
Well of course not, there was a pole in the way!
posted by gc at 3:36 PM on May 19 [37 favorites]
Disneyland character and parade performers in California vote to join labor union
posted by Artw at 3:43 PM on May 19 [7 favorites]
posted by Artw at 3:43 PM on May 19 [7 favorites]
I think she was very unlucky in her table assignmentIsn't that always the way, though? The rich don't hate the poor, they just think they got very unlucky. But hey, them's the breaks!
This kind of stratification of experience isn't, despite what some would have you believe, a natural law. And we should be even less willing to accept the idea that everybody can't have the same great time because every aspect of this experience was designed and built specifically for this purpose. If the project actually had the goal of providing every guest a fully immersive experience, the result would have been different.
I think part of what drives this is the fact that for properties with hardcore fandoms, the customer base's willingness to pay has an extremely long tail. That is, you can keep raising and raising the price and there will continue to be some small-but-shrinking group of potential customers who would find that a reasonable price to pay for some kind of upgrade or perk. And not taking advantage of that fact, not squeezing the more gullible marks for every penny you can, is anathema to the cynical bean counters who run the operation.
And that's just another reason why this kind of repetitive chiseling breaks the immersion. Because right alongside the work of the creatives who truly love and honor the property, it shows the hand of the cynics who don't give a shit about the experience: the people who see fans as a resource to be exploited and think they're all too stupid to notice.
posted by angrynerd at 4:02 PM on May 19 [14 favorites]
So, late stage capitalism.
posted by hippybear at 4:09 PM on May 19 [2 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 4:09 PM on May 19 [2 favorites]
She very clearly rolled a bunch of 1s on everything and is pretty open about it. I think she does a good job on speculaing on what a better experience might be like, but she didn't get one. And she doesn't get to do a do-over and hope for better luck because its super mega expensive and because Disney cut it all off in a shit-to-employees way for tax break/line go up reasons.
This is an experience that probably isn't all that great if your are making a youtube, but sure would super suck if you weren't.
posted by Artw at 4:12 PM on May 19 [6 favorites]
This is an experience that probably isn't all that great if your are making a youtube, but sure would super suck if you weren't.
posted by Artw at 4:12 PM on May 19 [6 favorites]
Carnies have been conning marks since before capitalism, much less late stage capitalism. The innovation here is that they've convinced at least some of the marks to incorporate their markdom into their identity. If you show up at the Star Wars carnival dressed as a Jedi, the ticket taker no longer has to smear chalk onto your back.
posted by angrynerd at 4:16 PM on May 19 [7 favorites]
posted by angrynerd at 4:16 PM on May 19 [7 favorites]
So, late stage capitalism.
The problem is always capitalism. But yeah, this seems like part of the phenomena where companies have just pivoted heavily from doing reasonable straight forward things in return for money and its now just all mega exploitative, growth at all costs destructive shit that throws anything anyone might value under the treads of the line.
posted by Artw at 4:16 PM on May 19 [3 favorites]
The problem is always capitalism. But yeah, this seems like part of the phenomena where companies have just pivoted heavily from doing reasonable straight forward things in return for money and its now just all mega exploitative, growth at all costs destructive shit that throws anything anyone might value under the treads of the line.
posted by Artw at 4:16 PM on May 19 [3 favorites]
Her comparisons of the Galactic Starcruiser experience to Spirit Airlines, and then extending that to the entire WDW Disney Bubble really sort of underscored some things for me in a way I hadn't really internalized before. It's good to be more healthy about understanding how Disney works if you sometimes think about Disney. And seeing the entire theme park as a giant Spirit Airlines flight really helped a lot.
posted by hippybear at 4:21 PM on May 19 [6 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 4:21 PM on May 19 [6 favorites]
Jenny rules. Disney drools.
posted by badbobbycase at 4:48 PM on May 19 [4 favorites]
posted by badbobbycase at 4:48 PM on May 19 [4 favorites]
I like Star Wars and Florida and have money, so this should have been my jam, but it was an obvious pass when I read the first reviews.
The resort experience was plainly three star. Cramped rooms, good-diner level food and booze, lots of waiting and queueing. No spa!
A lot of mandatory fun, a lot which was cheesy. Less could and would have been more.
posted by MattD at 4:53 PM on May 19
The resort experience was plainly three star. Cramped rooms, good-diner level food and booze, lots of waiting and queueing. No spa!
A lot of mandatory fun, a lot which was cheesy. Less could and would have been more.
posted by MattD at 4:53 PM on May 19
I do feel like this could have been an exquisite experience if they'd given themselves another year or two to work out the kinks.
I had actually put this onto my list of things to do, strangely. But oh well.
I hope Disney learned things from it they can apply to future experiences. I think there is a vast terrain between Disney and Evermore that could be explored for interesting results and experiences.
posted by hippybear at 4:56 PM on May 19 [1 favorite]
I had actually put this onto my list of things to do, strangely. But oh well.
I hope Disney learned things from it they can apply to future experiences. I think there is a vast terrain between Disney and Evermore that could be explored for interesting results and experiences.
posted by hippybear at 4:56 PM on May 19 [1 favorite]
Artw. Good. I hope they succeed. Average pay for cast characters is about $19.00,/hr..Where do you even find living accommodations with that paltry amount. Probably roommates share.
posted by Czjewel at 4:57 PM on May 19 [2 favorites]
posted by Czjewel at 4:57 PM on May 19 [2 favorites]
I was the exact target market for this product - GenX Star Wars fan with kids who would have been good ages (one a little old but he’s a SW fan) for when it opened.
Then I realized I could take my family to Paris or Rome for the same cost, possibly Tokyo. So like, no.
posted by warriorqueen at 4:58 PM on May 19 [13 favorites]
Then I realized I could take my family to Paris or Rome for the same cost, possibly Tokyo. So like, no.
posted by warriorqueen at 4:58 PM on May 19 [13 favorites]
I am also a person who went to this experience for whom the technology worked just fine. I expected two days of immersive theatre with some LARP- and game-like elements. And that’s what I got.
We didn’t buy any add ons and it did not affect our overall impressions of the experience. Also I had kind of cooled on Star Wars as a fan over time and Galactic Starcruiser was something that rekindled that fandom for me. And I met some folks on board the ship who I keep in touch with still — and that’s not uncommon.
For me and my friends, it absolutely worked as an immersive theatre experience. Was it perfect? No. Did it need better onboarding and tutorials on how to play? Absolutely. Was the pricing/booking process opaque and a little confusing? Yes. Did they plan for families of four and get rooms stuffed with 4-5 adult nerds? Also, yes. Could it have been cheaper? Probably not, given that the true cost of making immersive theatre would shock most customers. And was it a vacation? Absolutely not. But I made memories that will last a long, long time.
For example, the culmination of one of the smuggler storylines results in a group of passengers helping to steal an artifact; the twist is that they’re repatriating it to the people it was stolen from. The new steward of said artifact is a Twi’lek character who is always played by a Black woman.
A lot of the pieces covering Starcruiser’s closure also conveniently fail to mention it received a THEA Award (the Oscar of themed entertainment basically) as well as having the highest guest satisfaction ratings in the history of Walt Disney World.
Additionally, I would not describe the building/venue itself as “shoddy” or “of poor build quality” at all. The intent was to show a different aspect of the Star Wars universe that contrasted with the dusty, beat up aesthetic of Batuu.
What’s also funny about the A More Civilized Age podcast is that none of them seemed to remember how much they paid for the experience (!) when it was brought up and the group didn’t exactly recommend it to their listeners… but the very next episode they all talk about how they missed being on the ship and are lurking on the Starcruiser subreddit, reading posts.
posted by kathryn at 9:38 PM on May 19 [12 favorites]
We didn’t buy any add ons and it did not affect our overall impressions of the experience. Also I had kind of cooled on Star Wars as a fan over time and Galactic Starcruiser was something that rekindled that fandom for me. And I met some folks on board the ship who I keep in touch with still — and that’s not uncommon.
For me and my friends, it absolutely worked as an immersive theatre experience. Was it perfect? No. Did it need better onboarding and tutorials on how to play? Absolutely. Was the pricing/booking process opaque and a little confusing? Yes. Did they plan for families of four and get rooms stuffed with 4-5 adult nerds? Also, yes. Could it have been cheaper? Probably not, given that the true cost of making immersive theatre would shock most customers. And was it a vacation? Absolutely not. But I made memories that will last a long, long time.
For example, the culmination of one of the smuggler storylines results in a group of passengers helping to steal an artifact; the twist is that they’re repatriating it to the people it was stolen from. The new steward of said artifact is a Twi’lek character who is always played by a Black woman.
A lot of the pieces covering Starcruiser’s closure also conveniently fail to mention it received a THEA Award (the Oscar of themed entertainment basically) as well as having the highest guest satisfaction ratings in the history of Walt Disney World.
Additionally, I would not describe the building/venue itself as “shoddy” or “of poor build quality” at all. The intent was to show a different aspect of the Star Wars universe that contrasted with the dusty, beat up aesthetic of Batuu.
What’s also funny about the A More Civilized Age podcast is that none of them seemed to remember how much they paid for the experience (!) when it was brought up and the group didn’t exactly recommend it to their listeners… but the very next episode they all talk about how they missed being on the ship and are lurking on the Starcruiser subreddit, reading posts.
posted by kathryn at 9:38 PM on May 19 [12 favorites]
I see that we have passed into the portion of the Metafilter immersive experience where people who have watched a four hour video of one person’s trip to the Starcruiser now know more about it than three people who spent three days there each.
posted by adrianhon at 11:05 PM on May 19 [9 favorites]
posted by adrianhon at 11:05 PM on May 19 [9 favorites]
Or perhaps to put it into more familiar terms here, it feels a bit gaslighty for people to say, you can’t possibly have enjoyed it, you must be a mark/rube.
I thought Metafilter liked it when members shared their firsthand experiences - I guess maybe not, if they disagree with Jenny Nicholson.
Returning once more to the dreaded dinner theatre, it only occurs on one night - the other night has no performance. The Captain’s Table cost an extra $50/person.
If people are interested in this kind of thing, I’d encourage them to check out the Nordic Larp scene, which is largely non-commercial. One person from that world noted to me, “Everyone who uses the price point against the Galactic Starcruiser promptly misses the forest for the trees. The price is so high because that's what the bespoke labor and materials of a blockbuster larp / escape room / cruise actually costs.”
In my essay about the Starcruiser, I compare it to the cost of seeing Taylor Swift, which can easily run beyond $1000 when including accommodation and food. Is it worth it? Absolutely for some people, not for most.
posted by adrianhon at 11:25 PM on May 19 [6 favorites]
I thought Metafilter liked it when members shared their firsthand experiences - I guess maybe not, if they disagree with Jenny Nicholson.
Returning once more to the dreaded dinner theatre, it only occurs on one night - the other night has no performance. The Captain’s Table cost an extra $50/person.
If people are interested in this kind of thing, I’d encourage them to check out the Nordic Larp scene, which is largely non-commercial. One person from that world noted to me, “Everyone who uses the price point against the Galactic Starcruiser promptly misses the forest for the trees. The price is so high because that's what the bespoke labor and materials of a blockbuster larp / escape room / cruise actually costs.”
In my essay about the Starcruiser, I compare it to the cost of seeing Taylor Swift, which can easily run beyond $1000 when including accommodation and food. Is it worth it? Absolutely for some people, not for most.
posted by adrianhon at 11:25 PM on May 19 [6 favorites]
Some friends of mine went with their daughter, and while they are nerds they are not particularly Star Wars obsessives, and they had a good time and the staff was particularly good in building story for the daughter. So yeah, it may not have worked for some people, but it seems a lot of people had a good time. "Not a big enough market for the price point" is a different thing from "anyone who enjoyed it is a freak".
posted by tavella at 12:19 AM on May 20 [7 favorites]
posted by tavella at 12:19 AM on May 20 [7 favorites]
I love Jenny Nicholson and I really dislike rich people and Disney so 4 hours doesn't feel long enough.
posted by zymil at 1:39 AM on May 20 [1 favorite]
posted by zymil at 1:39 AM on May 20 [1 favorite]
A hopefully not-too-tangential tangent on the word "immersive": I'm 2 hours in, but my thoughts are lingering on the early segment in which Nicholson cuts together a bunch of uses of "immersive" as a buzzword.
I have done all sorts of acting/playwriting projects in my life, in spaces ranging from traditional proscenium theaters to Shakespeare-in-a-park to not-at-all-a-traditional-theater site-specific locations. I can't find the source, but some theater article/blog I read over the past couple of years took issue with the way we've adopted the term "immersive" for these LARP-adjacent, promenade theater events. The author's position (with which I largely agree) was that the effect of these events feels like the opposite of immersion -- one is constantly, actively reminded that one is participating in an artificial theater event. What ends up feeling more immersive (for that author and for me) is a traditional theater setting in which the actors are lit and the audience can lose itself in the darkness. YMMV.
posted by HeroZero at 4:56 AM on May 20 [8 favorites]
I have done all sorts of acting/playwriting projects in my life, in spaces ranging from traditional proscenium theaters to Shakespeare-in-a-park to not-at-all-a-traditional-theater site-specific locations. I can't find the source, but some theater article/blog I read over the past couple of years took issue with the way we've adopted the term "immersive" for these LARP-adjacent, promenade theater events. The author's position (with which I largely agree) was that the effect of these events feels like the opposite of immersion -- one is constantly, actively reminded that one is participating in an artificial theater event. What ends up feeling more immersive (for that author and for me) is a traditional theater setting in which the actors are lit and the audience can lose itself in the darkness. YMMV.
posted by HeroZero at 4:56 AM on May 20 [8 favorites]
If people are interested in this kind of thing, I’d encourage them to check out the Nordic Larp scene, which is largely non-commercial. One person from that world noted to me, “Everyone who uses the price point against the Galactic Starcruiser promptly misses the forest for the trees. The price is so high because that's what the bespoke labor and materials of a blockbuster larp / escape room / cruise actually costs.”
But that's not the comparison that's being made. Jenny keeps circling back to how Disney was selling this as a luxury hotel offering a premium experience. Premium experiences don't usually involve having to wait outside in the sweltering heat or not being able to see a dinner show because they put a column directly in your line of sight. Premium experiences usually don't require you to already have insider knowledge about how you're supposed to achieve the base level of enjoyment for the money that you paid. Premium experiences don't make you hide in a shitty panic closet if there's a fire.
In my essay about the Starcruiser, I compare it to the cost of seeing Taylor Swift, which can easily run beyond $1000 when including accommodation and food. Is it worth it? Absolutely for some people, not for most.
That's not a fair comparison either because Taylor Swift concerts aren't all-inclusive weekends. Tickets to her concerts are only part of the expense and you get to choose where you're staying and what you're eating and what other fun activities you're going to do while traveling there and you get to control the costs of all those things. And most concert venues let you know ahead of time which seats you have or if you have an obstructed view which they usually charge less upfront for. Imagine if you paid $1000 for a ticket to a Taylor Swift show and when you get there you discover that the row you get to sit in is determined by your interactions with an app and a traversal of an entirely opaque decision tree.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 5:43 AM on May 20 [8 favorites]
But that's not the comparison that's being made. Jenny keeps circling back to how Disney was selling this as a luxury hotel offering a premium experience. Premium experiences don't usually involve having to wait outside in the sweltering heat or not being able to see a dinner show because they put a column directly in your line of sight. Premium experiences usually don't require you to already have insider knowledge about how you're supposed to achieve the base level of enjoyment for the money that you paid. Premium experiences don't make you hide in a shitty panic closet if there's a fire.
In my essay about the Starcruiser, I compare it to the cost of seeing Taylor Swift, which can easily run beyond $1000 when including accommodation and food. Is it worth it? Absolutely for some people, not for most.
That's not a fair comparison either because Taylor Swift concerts aren't all-inclusive weekends. Tickets to her concerts are only part of the expense and you get to choose where you're staying and what you're eating and what other fun activities you're going to do while traveling there and you get to control the costs of all those things. And most concert venues let you know ahead of time which seats you have or if you have an obstructed view which they usually charge less upfront for. Imagine if you paid $1000 for a ticket to a Taylor Swift show and when you get there you discover that the row you get to sit in is determined by your interactions with an app and a traversal of an entirely opaque decision tree.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 5:43 AM on May 20 [8 favorites]
Jenny also comes across as strongly neurodivergent to me, which is one of the reasons I love her. She's exactly the type of person I'd be friends with and I have very few friends. But it's also a harsh reason why criticisms of demeanor and tone sting so much... People judge neurodivergent others very critically and it results in huge amounts of loneliness, job insecurity and economic hardship and stunning rates of depression and such.
posted by Jacen at 5:48 AM on May 20 [12 favorites]
posted by Jacen at 5:48 AM on May 20 [12 favorites]
I see that we have passed into the portion of the Metafilter immersive experience where people who have watched a four hour video of one person’s trip to the Starcruiser now know more about it than three people who spent three days there each.
One of the things that drives me a little crazy about Metafilter is the tendency to approach every discussion as a battle between two teams.
If you approach Nicholson's video as a thoughtful and detailed essay about one person's experience with an unusual creative endeavor, then we can have a really interesting discussion in which MeFites can share their own experiences. We can explore how those experiences differed from Nicholson's. And maybe we can investigate the tensions between creativity and profit at a multi-national entertainment company.
But if everything has to be about teams, and one of those teams is a (justifiably) well-liked Youtuber and the other team is The Excesses of Global Capitalism, then the discussion is over before it starts. Any MeFite who had a different experience than Nicholson is obviously on Team Evil Capitalism and we can reject their experience out of hand.
There has been thoughtful and good faith discussion in this thread that reminds me of why I stay on MeFi, and I appreciate everybody who has participated in that. But for anybody who is viewing a discussion about a theme park attraction you haven't experienced as a proxy for some global battle between good and evil... it might be worth stepping back.
Adrianhon, I haven't yet had the chance to read your essay but I've bookmarked it and I'm looking forward to diving into it. Thanks for sharing it.
posted by yankeefog at 5:56 AM on May 20 [23 favorites]
One of the things that drives me a little crazy about Metafilter is the tendency to approach every discussion as a battle between two teams.
If you approach Nicholson's video as a thoughtful and detailed essay about one person's experience with an unusual creative endeavor, then we can have a really interesting discussion in which MeFites can share their own experiences. We can explore how those experiences differed from Nicholson's. And maybe we can investigate the tensions between creativity and profit at a multi-national entertainment company.
But if everything has to be about teams, and one of those teams is a (justifiably) well-liked Youtuber and the other team is The Excesses of Global Capitalism, then the discussion is over before it starts. Any MeFite who had a different experience than Nicholson is obviously on Team Evil Capitalism and we can reject their experience out of hand.
There has been thoughtful and good faith discussion in this thread that reminds me of why I stay on MeFi, and I appreciate everybody who has participated in that. But for anybody who is viewing a discussion about a theme park attraction you haven't experienced as a proxy for some global battle between good and evil... it might be worth stepping back.
Adrianhon, I haven't yet had the chance to read your essay but I've bookmarked it and I'm looking forward to diving into it. Thanks for sharing it.
posted by yankeefog at 5:56 AM on May 20 [23 favorites]
In my essay about the Starcruiser, I compare it to the cost of seeing Taylor Swift, which can easily run beyond $1000 when including accommodation and food. Is it worth it? Absolutely for some people, not for most.
It's kind of amusing how you're doing the exact sort of sunk cost fallacy stuff that Jenny mentions in her video in Part 17, inflating the costs of other things in order to try to justify the cost of the Star Wars Hotel.
If the hotel had been a Star Wars themed hotel with the LARP elements as an optional add-on for those who want that sort of experience, I think they might have been able to make it work, with the non-LARP part of the hotel helping to subsidize the other part.
I think people probably could have been persuaded to pay a premium for a Star Wars themed hotel, just not THAT much of a premium.
posted by Fleebnork at 5:56 AM on May 20 [3 favorites]
It's kind of amusing how you're doing the exact sort of sunk cost fallacy stuff that Jenny mentions in her video in Part 17, inflating the costs of other things in order to try to justify the cost of the Star Wars Hotel.
If the hotel had been a Star Wars themed hotel with the LARP elements as an optional add-on for those who want that sort of experience, I think they might have been able to make it work, with the non-LARP part of the hotel helping to subsidize the other part.
I think people probably could have been persuaded to pay a premium for a Star Wars themed hotel, just not THAT much of a premium.
posted by Fleebnork at 5:56 AM on May 20 [3 favorites]
I can’t argue against the fact that there are non-luxury aspects to the Starcruiser. I didn’t read every word on their website but I did see a lot of photos before buying my ticket, so I wasn’t surprised by my cabin. It didn’t feel massively oversold to me, but I’m just one person - as is Jenny. There are so many parts to the experience such that elements that were disappointing, like waiting outside in the sun, were more than counterbalanced by the parts that were truly unique to me. I wasn’t sat behind a column but I missed out on some stuff I wish I knew about, and I still enjoyed it.
Which is really what it comes down to, I think. Even at the Starcruiser’s cost, it’s not possible to create the kind of total luxury people are expecting given the actors and tech; the hope is that people who go have a good experience overall, despite the rough edges that will happen for a new experience, even one like Disney.
My point about Taylor Swift is that value is in the eye of the beholder. Even at $1000 you’re going to have to endure waiting and queuing and overpriced food and drinks - things we’re all used to because we’ve all been to lots of concerts and we understand that’s how it works. The Starcruiser was very new, probably too new, and a lot of its problems aren’t understood by many. That’s fair - but what I keep coming back to is the assertion that many people really enjoyed the experience, even though they aren’t rich, even though they ran into many problems themselves, because the things that worked really worked for them.
posted by adrianhon at 5:57 AM on May 20 [3 favorites]
Which is really what it comes down to, I think. Even at the Starcruiser’s cost, it’s not possible to create the kind of total luxury people are expecting given the actors and tech; the hope is that people who go have a good experience overall, despite the rough edges that will happen for a new experience, even one like Disney.
My point about Taylor Swift is that value is in the eye of the beholder. Even at $1000 you’re going to have to endure waiting and queuing and overpriced food and drinks - things we’re all used to because we’ve all been to lots of concerts and we understand that’s how it works. The Starcruiser was very new, probably too new, and a lot of its problems aren’t understood by many. That’s fair - but what I keep coming back to is the assertion that many people really enjoyed the experience, even though they aren’t rich, even though they ran into many problems themselves, because the things that worked really worked for them.
posted by adrianhon at 5:57 AM on May 20 [3 favorites]
I still can't get over the fact that there are no fire exits. I know Disney can basically write its own local laws, but Christ alive. They could have had a Station fire on a massive scale.
As somebody who needs their improv to be restricted to TTRPG form and occasional bits to amuse a friend, this would not have been for me. But those actors are brave as hell. Imagine not only doing a face character but fully committing to the character with a bunch of randos, some of whom have severe boundary issues and/or are children, day in and day out. It's probably worse than working under deep cover for the CIA.
posted by Countess Elena at 6:02 AM on May 20 [16 favorites]
As somebody who needs their improv to be restricted to TTRPG form and occasional bits to amuse a friend, this would not have been for me. But those actors are brave as hell. Imagine not only doing a face character but fully committing to the character with a bunch of randos, some of whom have severe boundary issues and/or are children, day in and day out. It's probably worse than working under deep cover for the CIA.
posted by Countess Elena at 6:02 AM on May 20 [16 favorites]
It’s an inescapable fact that Starcruiser failed, and failed badly. Disney likely spent several million dollars in development and construction, only to close the attraction after about 18 months. At the time of the closing Disney execs cited “underperformance” as the reason, and there are plenty of contemporaneous articles and blog posts pointing out big drops in attendance. On the whole, people didn’t enjoy it, and didn’t see good value for the very high cost.
So it’s great that some folks enjoyed it. I’m sure those are honest opinions . But evidence suggests that’s the exception, not the rule.
posted by Frayed Knot at 6:06 AM on May 20 [3 favorites]
So it’s great that some folks enjoyed it. I’m sure those are honest opinions . But evidence suggests that’s the exception, not the rule.
posted by Frayed Knot at 6:06 AM on May 20 [3 favorites]
The issue isn't whether or not it was possible to have an enjoyable experience staying at the Star Wars hotel. Lots of people did and they had fun.
The problem is that Disney didn't seem to care very much about making sure everyone could achieve a base level of enjoyment. There was very little hand-holding for people who didn't know what they were supposed to do. There were lots of add-ons which increased the level of experience which weren't explicitly offered or were unavailable because they were already sold out. The whole story system was opaque and when it suffered from issues, those issues were irrecoverable.
Jenny keeps repeating that it was costing her $2/minute just to be there and how she knew she'd never be coming back because it was so expensive. When guests are paying that kind of money, it's inexcusable to be so cavalier about whether or not they're able to enjoy themselves. Jenny's comparison with Disney Cruises is a bit of a derail given the different experiences being offered, but it does serve one point--when you're paying that much for a Disney Cruise, they provide a goddamned personal concierge who will help you have a good time.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 6:09 AM on May 20 [8 favorites]
The problem is that Disney didn't seem to care very much about making sure everyone could achieve a base level of enjoyment. There was very little hand-holding for people who didn't know what they were supposed to do. There were lots of add-ons which increased the level of experience which weren't explicitly offered or were unavailable because they were already sold out. The whole story system was opaque and when it suffered from issues, those issues were irrecoverable.
Jenny keeps repeating that it was costing her $2/minute just to be there and how she knew she'd never be coming back because it was so expensive. When guests are paying that kind of money, it's inexcusable to be so cavalier about whether or not they're able to enjoy themselves. Jenny's comparison with Disney Cruises is a bit of a derail given the different experiences being offered, but it does serve one point--when you're paying that much for a Disney Cruise, they provide a goddamned personal concierge who will help you have a good time.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 6:09 AM on May 20 [8 favorites]
We actually don’t know people didn’t enjoy it - as Kathryn noted above, the guest satisfaction surveys were the highest ever. What probably was the case is that not enough people visited quickly enough, and that the business case - a ZIRP phenomenon - required more attendance. Disney cut a lot of things at the same time as closing the Starcruiser, and made a lot of mistakes.
Kathryn will know more about this than me but I think there are podcast interviews with the actors who seemed to really enjoy the work.
posted by adrianhon at 6:12 AM on May 20 [5 favorites]
Kathryn will know more about this than me but I think there are podcast interviews with the actors who seemed to really enjoy the work.
posted by adrianhon at 6:12 AM on May 20 [5 favorites]
Thanks for the note yankeefog! Believe it or not, I enjoyed Jenny’s video on Evermore, which I read as part of my research for a book I’m writing about the rise of immersive experiences.
Anyway, I will be stepping away from this thread now.
posted by adrianhon at 6:16 AM on May 20 [2 favorites]
Anyway, I will be stepping away from this thread now.
posted by adrianhon at 6:16 AM on May 20 [2 favorites]
Don't worry, adrianhon, I loved your input. I'm sure lot's of people loved the experience of the Starcruiser. I'm mostly interested in the ways Disney screwed up by nickle-and-diming the hell out of it. Seems shortsighted because I think the idea of Starcruiser has merit and a better company could have pulled it off.
posted by Pendragon at 6:51 AM on May 20 [3 favorites]
posted by Pendragon at 6:51 AM on May 20 [3 favorites]
The best trip my parents ever made to the Magic Kingdom was the time my dad got sick and they spent a day just casually strolling around the park and sitting on various benches to watch the numerous performing troupes that Disney has scattered around the park. This was in the 70s when park admission was relatively cheap and you could spend a lazy day inside the park not doing any rides without feeling like you were wasting wads of cash.
I realize the whole point of staying at the Galactic Starcruiser was to participate in the planned activities, but it makes me feel anxious when Jenny talks about there being no safety net if things go wrong. If you get a headache, you're spending $2/minute to lie in bed. If you miss your appointment to meet with a character for an important story beat, you're spending $2/minute trying to recover. If you don't know about the password thing, you're spending $2/minute trying to figure it out. The fact that the experience isn't flexible enough to accommodate any deviation, mix-up, or unforeseen circumstance fills me with anxiety.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 7:05 AM on May 20 [6 favorites]
I realize the whole point of staying at the Galactic Starcruiser was to participate in the planned activities, but it makes me feel anxious when Jenny talks about there being no safety net if things go wrong. If you get a headache, you're spending $2/minute to lie in bed. If you miss your appointment to meet with a character for an important story beat, you're spending $2/minute trying to recover. If you don't know about the password thing, you're spending $2/minute trying to figure it out. The fact that the experience isn't flexible enough to accommodate any deviation, mix-up, or unforeseen circumstance fills me with anxiety.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 7:05 AM on May 20 [6 favorites]
So my understanding is that Jenny voyaged in March 2022, shortly after Galactic Starcruiser opened. Her experience is also a snapshot in time of what it was like for her in early 2022 and does not really capture how the experience evolved over time (I mean, it can’t, how would it?). Not to invalidate what happened to her (which sounds like it totally sucked and I would also be upset if it happened to me). Just wanting to add some additional context here. Immersive experiences are not static, they change over time, it’s inevitable.
The cost per minute is a little bit misleading to use as a metric since the pricing is per cabin, and they had only two adults in their cabin, and could have brought additional people with them. Our cabin of five adults was more like $1500 per person ($1587 with travel insurance). Other friends who traveled off-peak paid less, closer to $1400 and change. And as mentioned previously, no, it’s not cheap and yes, the pricing structure is confusing.
The three Starcruiser exclusive add-ons I can remember were the portrait session, the Captain’s Table upgrade at dinner, and a cocktail class? “Lots of add-ons” is probably an overstatement. Visiting the cantina, building a lightsaber, and building a droid are available to anybody with a park ticket.
My voyage was in June 2023 — over a year later — and I also noticed a number of safety net type things in place (and found out about more later).
Two of the actors who we encountered made sure to pull us aside, scan what looked like a plastic card at a console, and then scan each of our MagicBands individually. Additionally, the in-room droid would prod you to not miss the next big event on your calendar. As would the app, to the point of sending multiple notifications just in case you didn’t see the first one. Any big set piece events would also be announced multiple times over the loudspeaker. The concierge had loaner iPhones behind the desk for anyone whose app broke. The staff to guest ratio was ridiculously high so there seemed to be someone free to assist any time anybody who needed help. There were also a few characters that would just mingle with people in the dining room or the garden area if they didn’t have anything specific to do at that time so they might come to you even if you weren’t looking for them. A show director might be standing back observing in the atrium in plainclothes or costume, and just blend in with the guests without you knowing; I took a photo with what I thought was a guest mindlessly scrolling on his phone in the background and it turned out to be an off duty actor, there to also observe. The control room also started to manually track certain guests who were playing the First Order path, in addition to the software keeping track.
As for the (non-actor) staff, it’s also my impression that working on the Starcruiser was profoundly impactful for them. From security to luggage services to the gift shop. These folks had to apply to work there from other parts of Walt Disney World so it was truly a badge of honor to be selected to work aboard the Starcruiser as not everybody got in. Many of the non-actor staff were already Star Wars fans and able to enhance the guest experience through little touches, like talking about their home planets (which were listed on their name badges) to pretending to hide from the First Order when asked about the secret Resistance merchandise in the gift shop to dropping off notes in Aurebesh if the guest seemed like they knew the language. A bunch of them got tattoos of the ship logo. I think they were also given a lot more freedom and autonomy to “play” back with a guest than normally allowed. One bartender would talk to shyer guests about his backstory (escaping from a slave planet and now working on the ship) and try to engage people who were hesitant to participate. It was a dream job for many of them and they were heartbroken to leave.
I know some of the Starcruiser actors moved from LA/NYC just to work on the ship. It seems incredibly rewarding but also mentally and physically exhausting. One former actor describes going home and writing down details of each guest he met that first day and attempting to commit them to memory so he could greet people by name the second day. Now lather, rinse, repeat for every two day voyage. (BTW: we also used in universe names for our trip and the actors made sure to note that and repeat those names back to us.) And at least 3-4 of the former performers have continued working in interactive/immersive theatre.
posted by kathryn at 8:27 AM on May 20 [22 favorites]
The cost per minute is a little bit misleading to use as a metric since the pricing is per cabin, and they had only two adults in their cabin, and could have brought additional people with them. Our cabin of five adults was more like $1500 per person ($1587 with travel insurance). Other friends who traveled off-peak paid less, closer to $1400 and change. And as mentioned previously, no, it’s not cheap and yes, the pricing structure is confusing.
The three Starcruiser exclusive add-ons I can remember were the portrait session, the Captain’s Table upgrade at dinner, and a cocktail class? “Lots of add-ons” is probably an overstatement. Visiting the cantina, building a lightsaber, and building a droid are available to anybody with a park ticket.
My voyage was in June 2023 — over a year later — and I also noticed a number of safety net type things in place (and found out about more later).
Two of the actors who we encountered made sure to pull us aside, scan what looked like a plastic card at a console, and then scan each of our MagicBands individually. Additionally, the in-room droid would prod you to not miss the next big event on your calendar. As would the app, to the point of sending multiple notifications just in case you didn’t see the first one. Any big set piece events would also be announced multiple times over the loudspeaker. The concierge had loaner iPhones behind the desk for anyone whose app broke. The staff to guest ratio was ridiculously high so there seemed to be someone free to assist any time anybody who needed help. There were also a few characters that would just mingle with people in the dining room or the garden area if they didn’t have anything specific to do at that time so they might come to you even if you weren’t looking for them. A show director might be standing back observing in the atrium in plainclothes or costume, and just blend in with the guests without you knowing; I took a photo with what I thought was a guest mindlessly scrolling on his phone in the background and it turned out to be an off duty actor, there to also observe. The control room also started to manually track certain guests who were playing the First Order path, in addition to the software keeping track.
As for the (non-actor) staff, it’s also my impression that working on the Starcruiser was profoundly impactful for them. From security to luggage services to the gift shop. These folks had to apply to work there from other parts of Walt Disney World so it was truly a badge of honor to be selected to work aboard the Starcruiser as not everybody got in. Many of the non-actor staff were already Star Wars fans and able to enhance the guest experience through little touches, like talking about their home planets (which were listed on their name badges) to pretending to hide from the First Order when asked about the secret Resistance merchandise in the gift shop to dropping off notes in Aurebesh if the guest seemed like they knew the language. A bunch of them got tattoos of the ship logo. I think they were also given a lot more freedom and autonomy to “play” back with a guest than normally allowed. One bartender would talk to shyer guests about his backstory (escaping from a slave planet and now working on the ship) and try to engage people who were hesitant to participate. It was a dream job for many of them and they were heartbroken to leave.
I know some of the Starcruiser actors moved from LA/NYC just to work on the ship. It seems incredibly rewarding but also mentally and physically exhausting. One former actor describes going home and writing down details of each guest he met that first day and attempting to commit them to memory so he could greet people by name the second day. Now lather, rinse, repeat for every two day voyage. (BTW: we also used in universe names for our trip and the actors made sure to note that and repeat those names back to us.) And at least 3-4 of the former performers have continued working in interactive/immersive theatre.
posted by kathryn at 8:27 AM on May 20 [22 favorites]
So my understanding is that Jenny voyaged in March 2022, shortly after Galactic Starcruiser opened.
I think it’s notable that she sat on this until way later when it was time to do a post-mortem. Suspect that’s not what would have happened if she’d had a better time.
posted by Artw at 8:54 AM on May 20 [1 favorite]
I think it’s notable that she sat on this until way later when it was time to do a post-mortem. Suspect that’s not what would have happened if she’d had a better time.
posted by Artw at 8:54 AM on May 20 [1 favorite]
Or perhaps to put it into more familiar terms here, it feels a bit gaslighty for people to say, you can’t possibly have enjoyed it, you must be a mark/rube.With this context, your contributions to this thread make a lot more sense. Nothing, not Jenny's video, nor the comments in this thread can take away the fact that you, and plenty of other people, enjoyed the Star Wars hotel.
But I think the point you're missing is that it's generally more interesting, and especially in the case where a system or experiment fails, to examine the failure cases than the success cases. Say a self driving car system is taken off the market because it crashed 1% of the time. In terms of figuring out what went wrong, it just stands to reason that you're going to spend a lot more time looking at the 1% of failures than the 99% of successes. And it contributes nothing to the discussion to have someone repeatedly pop their head in and say, "Hey, I had a good time! I didn't crash!"
And to clarify my previous comments, I wasn't trying to say that people who enjoyed the resort were rubes. I was trying to say that Disney Parks thinks its guests are rubes, and they can't seem to hide that fact, which could really explain why at least some people didn't find the experience quite so immersive, which could really explain why Disney's multi-million dollar experiment crashed and burned. And I thought that was the interesting point we were all here discussing.
posted by angrynerd at 9:12 AM on May 20 [10 favorites]
Her experience is also a snapshot in time of what it was like for her in early 2022 and does not really capture how the experience evolved over time (I mean, it can’t, how would it?).
Fair enough, but Disney didn't really advertise it as a work in progress. Are we just expected to understand that the first N (days|months|years) an attraction is available will be glitchy and might not live up to what's advertised?
There are lots of people who would be thrilled to pay thousands of dollars to participate in an open beta for Disney, but there are also lots of other people who wouldn't be. And I think this is a big theme of Jenny's criticism: that Disney wasn't exactly honest when they were setting expectations. From those goofy promotional videos they did to the imagineer roundtables, to the actual hotel experience. And (initially, at least) they were cool with just letting guests cope with their oversights/mistakes despite the very high cost of participation.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 9:35 AM on May 20 [7 favorites]
Fair enough, but Disney didn't really advertise it as a work in progress. Are we just expected to understand that the first N (days|months|years) an attraction is available will be glitchy and might not live up to what's advertised?
There are lots of people who would be thrilled to pay thousands of dollars to participate in an open beta for Disney, but there are also lots of other people who wouldn't be. And I think this is a big theme of Jenny's criticism: that Disney wasn't exactly honest when they were setting expectations. From those goofy promotional videos they did to the imagineer roundtables, to the actual hotel experience. And (initially, at least) they were cool with just letting guests cope with their oversights/mistakes despite the very high cost of participation.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 9:35 AM on May 20 [7 favorites]
For instance, I don't watch Hbomberwhatevertheheckthatguysnameis for exactly the same reason.
Ageism it is, then! Thanks for clearing that up for us.
Lol. Angry nerd revealing he's more angry than anything. I clearly know his name. You just can't distinguish sarcasm without an /s.
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 9:59 AM on May 20
Ageism it is, then! Thanks for clearing that up for us.
Lol. Angry nerd revealing he's more angry than anything. I clearly know his name. You just can't distinguish sarcasm without an /s.
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 9:59 AM on May 20
One thing I'd like to clarify here: there absolutely were clearly marked fire exits, with standard illuminated signage. I just went back and checked at my pictures to confirm this. They will play games with your money and time, but they didn't fuck around with safety.
Since this thread is pretty focused on the failures, I'd like to share an anecdote about something that worked. I liked the engineering area; the minigames were simple, but the tactility was really enjoyable. (Creating a skill-based game that is accessible to everyone across a broad age range is a really difficult needle to thread, and I think they pulled it off as well as could be expected.) One of the minigames involved rerouting power by tracing conduits and plugging in giant cables. As we're cheerfully plugging away, we notice what looks like a handwritten annotation in aurebesh off to one side that basically boils down to "remember not to attach X to Y, that was a bad idea". So of course we go ahead and plug X into Y. There's a bright arc of light, a snapping sound, and-- engineering promptly crashes. Most of the lights go down, the sounds stop, and other people in engineering start yelling and wondering what the hell just happened. This goes on just long enough that we're sidling toward the exit and whispering oh shit oh shit oh shit when of course the lights come back up and everything goes back to normal.
But here's the thing: here I was, a grown-ass adult at a fancy hotel, and for a few panicked seconds I was convinced that I had irreparably fucked up an interstellar spacecraft. That's absolutely crazy. We throw around the word "immersion" a lot, but they nailed that moment, and they didn't even need an actor to do it.
posted by phooky at 10:09 AM on May 20 [26 favorites]
Since this thread is pretty focused on the failures, I'd like to share an anecdote about something that worked. I liked the engineering area; the minigames were simple, but the tactility was really enjoyable. (Creating a skill-based game that is accessible to everyone across a broad age range is a really difficult needle to thread, and I think they pulled it off as well as could be expected.) One of the minigames involved rerouting power by tracing conduits and plugging in giant cables. As we're cheerfully plugging away, we notice what looks like a handwritten annotation in aurebesh off to one side that basically boils down to "remember not to attach X to Y, that was a bad idea". So of course we go ahead and plug X into Y. There's a bright arc of light, a snapping sound, and-- engineering promptly crashes. Most of the lights go down, the sounds stop, and other people in engineering start yelling and wondering what the hell just happened. This goes on just long enough that we're sidling toward the exit and whispering oh shit oh shit oh shit when of course the lights come back up and everything goes back to normal.
But here's the thing: here I was, a grown-ass adult at a fancy hotel, and for a few panicked seconds I was convinced that I had irreparably fucked up an interstellar spacecraft. That's absolutely crazy. We throw around the word "immersion" a lot, but they nailed that moment, and they didn't even need an actor to do it.
posted by phooky at 10:09 AM on May 20 [26 favorites]
For a few solid years in my tweens/teens I would have been (wanting to be, at least) first in line for this type of thing: A D&D playing, LARP-ing Star Wars nerd who had read everything in the extended universe and was thoroughly drawn in by the Star Wars magic, by the promise of this expansive universe that promised something new - a new planet, or new moon, or new species- everywhere you looked, and at its core an ethos of justice and freedom. A lot of that enthusiasm has faded but this is still something I'm sure I would have done - eventually - if I'd been able to afford it. I think if Disney had, as gen Z says, "let it cook" -- taken some time to iron out things that weren't working, figure out how best to balance guest experience vs. the price, I think they could have ended up with a great guest experience that felt 'worth it' for enough people to fill the hotel most of the time (or enough at least so that it could be profitable). Instead, under the way Disney is run now, things need to be profitable day one or they get abandoned. Most of what Walt Disney created during his lifetime was not immediately profitable. Going by box office, Pinocchio was a failure when it first released. Bambi too. Fantasia too. Disney released one unprofitable movie after another in the 40s. But instead of throwing them in a vault, Disney re-released them until they were profitable.
I didn't go so of course I can't comment on the experience. But I think that what Jenny speaks to about how Disney is run these days rings very true to me. They want everything to be Frozen or Guardians of the Galaxy - profitable day 1, not too expensive to make and with a very low marginal cost so if the entire world sees it, you've made billions of dollars off of a couple hundred million dollar investment. But not everything can be like that, especially with a business like Disney where everything (much to my dismay) is at least a little bit an ad for everything else. If they'd taken their time with this - and with all the animated productions they've canceled recently because they weren't immediately successful- they could have had something. But that's just not something they're interested in.
posted by matcha action at 10:37 AM on May 20 [6 favorites]
I didn't go so of course I can't comment on the experience. But I think that what Jenny speaks to about how Disney is run these days rings very true to me. They want everything to be Frozen or Guardians of the Galaxy - profitable day 1, not too expensive to make and with a very low marginal cost so if the entire world sees it, you've made billions of dollars off of a couple hundred million dollar investment. But not everything can be like that, especially with a business like Disney where everything (much to my dismay) is at least a little bit an ad for everything else. If they'd taken their time with this - and with all the animated productions they've canceled recently because they weren't immediately successful- they could have had something. But that's just not something they're interested in.
posted by matcha action at 10:37 AM on May 20 [6 favorites]
What epitomized the nickel-and-diming to me was not even offering free Disney+ in the rooms. Spirit Airlines is exactly the right comparison. They really want to wring every last penny out of their customers.
posted by orrnyereg at 10:49 AM on May 20 [18 favorites]
posted by orrnyereg at 10:49 AM on May 20 [18 favorites]
“Nothing is more hopeless than a scheme of merriment.” -Samuel Johnson
posted by badbobbycase at 12:45 PM on May 20 [1 favorite]
posted by badbobbycase at 12:45 PM on May 20 [1 favorite]
I think it hasn't helped that Disney has been working hard to strip-mine all the value from Star Wars they can. Sure, Lucas has to take a lot of the blame for the atrocious prequels. And the weird cultural embrace of the bad guys (Star Wars' most public cosplay face being the 501st Legion) certainly makes me leery. But the big movies were a mixed bag. It was SO GREAT to see women swinging light sabers and piloting X-wings! But plotwise it was another retread that was not improved with sequels. And Mando was fun for a while, but there's just too much product, much of it too low quality (kind of exactly like the MCU). Andor is the only thing that made me actually interested in Star Wars again, partially because it seemed so little like the rest of the Star Wars product on offer (and seemed actually political and anti-authoritarian and anti-capitalist).
posted by rikschell at 3:47 PM on May 20 [9 favorites]
posted by rikschell at 3:47 PM on May 20 [9 favorites]
One person from that world noted to me, “Everyone who uses the price point against the Galactic Starcruiser promptly misses the forest for the trees. The price is so high because that's what the bespoke labor and materials of a blockbuster larp / escape room / cruise actually costs.”
you might explain to this gentle soul from another world that the massive amounts of money involved do not go in proportionally large amounts to the “bespoke labor.”
posted by queenofbithynia at 6:43 PM on May 20 [6 favorites]
you might explain to this gentle soul from another world that the massive amounts of money involved do not go in proportionally large amounts to the “bespoke labor.”
posted by queenofbithynia at 6:43 PM on May 20 [6 favorites]
Good grief, the music on the soundtrack album is really excellent! I hope it doesn't end up feeling dated in 10 years, but for now, it's quite a fun listen. Gaya is one hell of a singer, too! The second half of the album is songs from other bands across the galaxy, played in the lounge I think.
posted by hippybear at 6:51 PM on May 20 [1 favorite]
posted by hippybear at 6:51 PM on May 20 [1 favorite]
There's a whole Galaxy's Edge soundtrack with another Gaya song that isn't on this album. I haven't tracked that down yet. But I sort of like these "alien bar songs" from this album so I might seek out the Galaxy's Edge album too.
posted by hippybear at 7:06 PM on May 20 [1 favorite]
posted by hippybear at 7:06 PM on May 20 [1 favorite]
None of it is as alien and fun and catchy as the original Cantina Band tracks.
posted by hippybear at 7:07 PM on May 20 [1 favorite]
posted by hippybear at 7:07 PM on May 20 [1 favorite]
I mean, I guess they could have given you free Disney+ in the rooms? But that would have encouraged people to sit around watch TV. Which was not really the point. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
posted by kathryn at 7:30 PM on May 20
posted by kathryn at 7:30 PM on May 20
The video was exactly as long as it needed to be. I had to do it in three chunks, but YouTube will remind you about long videos you don't finish.
The thing that puzzles me the most is the ridiculously poor sight lines at her table. We build 80,000 seat stadiums without an obstructed view, so how did they fail so badly here? Or, perhaps the better question, why?
The second would be the stealth test-runs they did of interactive games they did in the main park, none of which ended up being used in the hotel. Those don't even require extra actors (although perhaps some more backstage people.)
Third is the ridiculously small rooms. Her comparison to the comparably priced cabins on the Disney cruise ship was apt. Even in-universe, this is supposed to be a luxury ship. Maybe if this was The Titanic Hotel you could get away with selling people on the steerage experience.
I mean, I guess they could have given you free Disney+ in the rooms? But that would have encouraged people to sit around watch TV.
If that was the concern, why offer it at all? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 9:08 PM on May 20 [8 favorites]
The thing that puzzles me the most is the ridiculously poor sight lines at her table. We build 80,000 seat stadiums without an obstructed view, so how did they fail so badly here? Or, perhaps the better question, why?
The second would be the stealth test-runs they did of interactive games they did in the main park, none of which ended up being used in the hotel. Those don't even require extra actors (although perhaps some more backstage people.)
Third is the ridiculously small rooms. Her comparison to the comparably priced cabins on the Disney cruise ship was apt. Even in-universe, this is supposed to be a luxury ship. Maybe if this was The Titanic Hotel you could get away with selling people on the steerage experience.
I mean, I guess they could have given you free Disney+ in the rooms? But that would have encouraged people to sit around watch TV.
If that was the concern, why offer it at all? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 9:08 PM on May 20 [8 favorites]
I mean, I guess they could have given you free Disney+ in the rooms? But that would have encouraged people to sit around watch TV.
It appears that all of the "show" (bars, etc) shut down at 11pm, so if you only need a couple of hours of sleep, watching tv (or simply having it on) can be a thing.
posted by mikelieman at 4:33 AM on May 21
It appears that all of the "show" (bars, etc) shut down at 11pm, so if you only need a couple of hours of sleep, watching tv (or simply having it on) can be a thing.
posted by mikelieman at 4:33 AM on May 21
I mean, I guess they could have given you free Disney+ in the rooms? But that would have encouraged people to sit around watch TV. Which was not really the point. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Isn't this argument kind of disingenuous? What does it matter to you if someone or their kid gets overwhelmed by the experience and just wants to crash in the room and watch television for a bit, despite the enormous cost of being there.
Disney considered televisions an important enough amenity that they were willing to break the "immersion" of the experience by having one in each cabin. And they also decided content on those televisions would be another shitty Spirit Airlines upsell. Putting aside every other complaint about the experience, isn't forcing people to pay extra to use a television in their own luxury hotel room kind of terrible and not the kind of thing that needs to be defended on an Internet forum?
posted by RonButNotStupid at 5:30 AM on May 21 [13 favorites]
Isn't this argument kind of disingenuous? What does it matter to you if someone or their kid gets overwhelmed by the experience and just wants to crash in the room and watch television for a bit, despite the enormous cost of being there.
Disney considered televisions an important enough amenity that they were willing to break the "immersion" of the experience by having one in each cabin. And they also decided content on those televisions would be another shitty Spirit Airlines upsell. Putting aside every other complaint about the experience, isn't forcing people to pay extra to use a television in their own luxury hotel room kind of terrible and not the kind of thing that needs to be defended on an Internet forum?
posted by RonButNotStupid at 5:30 AM on May 21 [13 favorites]
I should at least be able to watch the latest First Order propaganda while on a luxury star cruise
posted by Jacen at 5:36 AM on May 21 [7 favorites]
posted by Jacen at 5:36 AM on May 21 [7 favorites]
To change the subject a little bit. I finally got to watch the last third of Jenny's video and does anyone else think the Captain's address to those who chose to side with the First Order seem kind of tepid and bothsidesy?
I thought the character playing the First Order officer had a much better and more thematically (and morally) appropriate finale where he casually named the names of all his would-be First Order spies (thereby revealing them to the other passengers) and then dismissed them for being so terrible at their jobs. I found that to be a nice way of reconciling that it's fun to roleplay as the bad guys without valorizing the bad guys. It also subtly reinforces the message that there's nothing to be gained by working for the leopards because sooner or later they'll eat your face and betray you when it's convenient.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 6:04 AM on May 21 [9 favorites]
I thought the character playing the First Order officer had a much better and more thematically (and morally) appropriate finale where he casually named the names of all his would-be First Order spies (thereby revealing them to the other passengers) and then dismissed them for being so terrible at their jobs. I found that to be a nice way of reconciling that it's fun to roleplay as the bad guys without valorizing the bad guys. It also subtly reinforces the message that there's nothing to be gained by working for the leopards because sooner or later they'll eat your face and betray you when it's convenient.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 6:04 AM on May 21 [9 favorites]
I should at least be able to watch the latest First Order propaganda while on a luxury star cruise
Another fun detail that may not have been up and running yet when Nicholson was there: the menu system on the TV was in-universe and gave the sort of local information you often find at fancy hotels like this, so you could see the ship's itinerary, etc. My favorite bit was an on-screen starship identification guide, so if you had/needed downtime, you could look out your Fake Space Window and try to work out what the occasional passing spaceship was. Basically, birdwatching in space. Unfortunately the Fake Space Windows were pretty blurry; I think they were basically huge fresnel lenses in front of decent displays. I wish they'd found a better solution but to be fair I can't really think of one.
The people who chose the First Order when I was there were a) some really enthusiastic teenage cosplayers and b) a couple of smaller kids who wanted to push narrative boundaries by being the "bad guys". The First Order officer was played as a relatively decent, rule-following bumbler; a campishly evil schemer might have been fun but I appreciate not wanting to provide guests with an avenue to go full fash. Also, when the officer had his bit at the end and called out this one tween kid by name as his only loyal helper-- man, that kid lost his mind. It was pretty great. I'm pretty uncomfortable with the way Disney markets, uh, [checks notes] literal stormtroopers-- huh, really?-- to kids, but they did ok here.
posted by phooky at 6:36 AM on May 21 [6 favorites]
Another fun detail that may not have been up and running yet when Nicholson was there: the menu system on the TV was in-universe and gave the sort of local information you often find at fancy hotels like this, so you could see the ship's itinerary, etc. My favorite bit was an on-screen starship identification guide, so if you had/needed downtime, you could look out your Fake Space Window and try to work out what the occasional passing spaceship was. Basically, birdwatching in space. Unfortunately the Fake Space Windows were pretty blurry; I think they were basically huge fresnel lenses in front of decent displays. I wish they'd found a better solution but to be fair I can't really think of one.
The people who chose the First Order when I was there were a) some really enthusiastic teenage cosplayers and b) a couple of smaller kids who wanted to push narrative boundaries by being the "bad guys". The First Order officer was played as a relatively decent, rule-following bumbler; a campishly evil schemer might have been fun but I appreciate not wanting to provide guests with an avenue to go full fash. Also, when the officer had his bit at the end and called out this one tween kid by name as his only loyal helper-- man, that kid lost his mind. It was pretty great. I'm pretty uncomfortable with the way Disney markets, uh, [checks notes] literal stormtroopers-- huh, really?-- to kids, but they did ok here.
posted by phooky at 6:36 AM on May 21 [6 favorites]
I should at least be able to watch the latest First Order propaganda while on a luxury star cruise
posted by Jacen
Eponysterical-ish?
Having thought about it a little more: luxury, to me, is all about the small details. Things like non-complimentary Disney+ access, or a dinner service without a vegetarian option (something even a cheap wedding caterer would provide), show the corner-cutting. Would that pass muster in any other Disney resort?
Personally, I would run a mile in tight shoes to avoid an attraction like this. But I do care about stupidly wealthy corporations stiffing their guests who are shelling out absurd sums for the privilege and it's fair to criticize them for that.
posted by orrnyereg at 7:06 AM on May 21 [3 favorites]
posted by Jacen
Eponysterical-ish?
Having thought about it a little more: luxury, to me, is all about the small details. Things like non-complimentary Disney+ access, or a dinner service without a vegetarian option (something even a cheap wedding caterer would provide), show the corner-cutting. Would that pass muster in any other Disney resort?
Personally, I would run a mile in tight shoes to avoid an attraction like this. But I do care about stupidly wealthy corporations stiffing their guests who are shelling out absurd sums for the privilege and it's fair to criticize them for that.
posted by orrnyereg at 7:06 AM on May 21 [3 favorites]
I'm relieved to see that there were in fact fire exits. Jenny may have been there early enough that they had treated fire exits as a bug to be fixed, which is also very scary, or she may have just been mistaken.
Since I like to listen to long videos as podcasts while I walk or do things around the place, going back and looking if the visuals are important, I started on the Evermore video. That really did seem bonkers for the mental health of the performers and workers.
... does anyone else think the Captain's address to those who chose to side with the First Order seem kind of tepid and bothsidesy?
Oh yeah, that was sad as hell. But it was also meant for kids, really, and it's doubly sad that we perceive its uselessness in the full context of 2024, and in Florida of all places.
posted by Countess Elena at 7:35 AM on May 21 [2 favorites]
Since I like to listen to long videos as podcasts while I walk or do things around the place, going back and looking if the visuals are important, I started on the Evermore video. That really did seem bonkers for the mental health of the performers and workers.
... does anyone else think the Captain's address to those who chose to side with the First Order seem kind of tepid and bothsidesy?
Oh yeah, that was sad as hell. But it was also meant for kids, really, and it's doubly sad that we perceive its uselessness in the full context of 2024, and in Florida of all places.
posted by Countess Elena at 7:35 AM on May 21 [2 favorites]
Why Do Expensive Hotels Charge for Wi-Fi When Cheaper Hotels Don’t?
posted by RonButNotStupid at 7:38 AM on May 21
posted by RonButNotStupid at 7:38 AM on May 21
this was a thorough experiential review of a theme park attraction
I appreciate the thought devoted to impacts on labour, and I appreciate the broader scope devoted to clear trends in Disney entertainment enshittification.
worth the time, thanks for sharing Pendragon
posted by elkevelvet at 7:44 AM on May 21 [2 favorites]
I appreciate the thought devoted to impacts on labour, and I appreciate the broader scope devoted to clear trends in Disney entertainment enshittification.
worth the time, thanks for sharing Pendragon
posted by elkevelvet at 7:44 AM on May 21 [2 favorites]
Vaguely related: Why do scholars get ARGs so wrong?
posted by Artw at 7:53 AM on May 21 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 7:53 AM on May 21 [1 favorite]
dinner service without a vegetarian option
Huh. I traveled with a vegan who had a soy allergy on the Starcruiser. During the booking process, they asked about dietary restrictions. Pretty sure they also called to confirm ahead of our leaving and re-confirmed during check in. Our server made sure to reiterate the restrictions when we had sat down the first dinner and asked the vegan guest to identify herself. The chef also came out to speak to her at some point as well. Our vegan traveler with an allergy was taken care of very very well and her dishes were quite tasty (I tried some); in fact, she was given too much food at both dinners and asked us meat eaters to help her finish it. The desserts she was given were also vegan versions of what everybody else got. She noted she was impressed by that detail since often the vegan dessert was berries in a bowl or something else lackluster. Breakfast and lunch buffet options were also very clearly labeled in terms of what was plant based.
posted by kathryn at 8:57 AM on May 21 [5 favorites]
Huh. I traveled with a vegan who had a soy allergy on the Starcruiser. During the booking process, they asked about dietary restrictions. Pretty sure they also called to confirm ahead of our leaving and re-confirmed during check in. Our server made sure to reiterate the restrictions when we had sat down the first dinner and asked the vegan guest to identify herself. The chef also came out to speak to her at some point as well. Our vegan traveler with an allergy was taken care of very very well and her dishes were quite tasty (I tried some); in fact, she was given too much food at both dinners and asked us meat eaters to help her finish it. The desserts she was given were also vegan versions of what everybody else got. She noted she was impressed by that detail since often the vegan dessert was berries in a bowl or something else lackluster. Breakfast and lunch buffet options were also very clearly labeled in terms of what was plant based.
posted by kathryn at 8:57 AM on May 21 [5 favorites]
Jenny literally posted video of her menu and there's no vegetarian option. She does note how flexible and accommodating the chef is and how she probably could have asked (but didn't because she thought it was too late), but she also says she just took it on faith that there would be a vegetarian option by default because that's been her experience in every other Disney restaurant and most restaurants.
It's great that your friend didn't run into the same problem, but like the point is that they kind of skimped on the menu and put guests in the position of having to make special requests that they probably weren't expecting to make.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 9:11 AM on May 21 [9 favorites]
It's great that your friend didn't run into the same problem, but like the point is that they kind of skimped on the menu and put guests in the position of having to make special requests that they probably weren't expecting to make.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 9:11 AM on May 21 [9 favorites]
Interesting. Her menu looks much smaller and narrower than the one we got which had little green leaf icons all over it. So they eventually fixed it I’m assuming (but too late for her, sadly).
posted by kathryn at 9:18 AM on May 21 [4 favorites]
posted by kathryn at 9:18 AM on May 21 [4 favorites]
Disney is nearly pathological about making sure people with food allergies and other issues can be accommodated. At basically any table service restaurant anywhere in Disney you can make your food needs known and they will be relayed to the chef, who might even come out to talk to you and make sure you'll have a meal you can enjoy without any fear. I don't know about the quick service places -- they're probably less flexible. But Disney is basically known for catering [heh] to guests with dietary requirements.
posted by hippybear at 9:23 AM on May 21 [4 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 9:23 AM on May 21 [4 favorites]
I enjoyed what I saw of the video (I'm only about two hours in because I have shit to do but I do plan on finishing it) and I also probably would have eventually found a way to stay at this hotel if it had survived long enough to make that a feasible thing so I feel like I split the difference between the two sides of this thread.
In 2016 I spent a little over $6,000 LARPing so the cost here isn't necessarily prohibitive, but on the other hand that $6,000 was spread over ten events that covered 400 hours of game time and I'm including airfare, car rental, costuming and food in the cost. It would indeed be hard for me to get the $2 a minute calculator to turn off. I'm also a late adopter generally; I like to wait until all of the kinks have been worked out.
I understand the comment about roleplaying with a cast member being "cringe" but all of my hobbies have been cringe for my entire life right up until the moment they weren't. Dungeons & Dragons was a punchline prior to Stranger Things and Critical Role but the moment a bunch of good looking, charismatic performers started doing it as something other than a joke all of a sudden the popular kids were running D&D clubs at the high school where my wife taught.
The first time I visited Galaxy's Edge (or "Star Wars Land", if you prefer) at Disneyland it really did bring into focus something that I had been starting to think for a while, which is that the future of entertainment does seem to be heading in a LARPy direction. When movies can create basically any visual and all of the music that has ever been recorded is available at the push of a button the only things that will leave an impression worth paying for are experiences, and that means live events and performances that draw you into the moment. In other words, what cynical marketing teams term "immersion".
posted by Parasite Unseen at 10:04 AM on May 21 [2 favorites]
In 2016 I spent a little over $6,000 LARPing so the cost here isn't necessarily prohibitive, but on the other hand that $6,000 was spread over ten events that covered 400 hours of game time and I'm including airfare, car rental, costuming and food in the cost. It would indeed be hard for me to get the $2 a minute calculator to turn off. I'm also a late adopter generally; I like to wait until all of the kinks have been worked out.
I understand the comment about roleplaying with a cast member being "cringe" but all of my hobbies have been cringe for my entire life right up until the moment they weren't. Dungeons & Dragons was a punchline prior to Stranger Things and Critical Role but the moment a bunch of good looking, charismatic performers started doing it as something other than a joke all of a sudden the popular kids were running D&D clubs at the high school where my wife taught.
The first time I visited Galaxy's Edge (or "Star Wars Land", if you prefer) at Disneyland it really did bring into focus something that I had been starting to think for a while, which is that the future of entertainment does seem to be heading in a LARPy direction. When movies can create basically any visual and all of the music that has ever been recorded is available at the push of a button the only things that will leave an impression worth paying for are experiences, and that means live events and performances that draw you into the moment. In other words, what cynical marketing teams term "immersion".
posted by Parasite Unseen at 10:04 AM on May 21 [2 favorites]
I understand the comment about roleplaying with a cast member being "cringe" but all of my hobbies have been cringe for my entire life right up until the moment they weren't.
I think that was my comment, and I just want to clarify, I don't think it is "cringe" to roleplay or LARP in the sense of being uncool. I am saying that the pure awkwardness of doing improv with strangers in a customer service capacity would be unbearable to me.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 10:28 AM on May 21 [3 favorites]
I think that was my comment, and I just want to clarify, I don't think it is "cringe" to roleplay or LARP in the sense of being uncool. I am saying that the pure awkwardness of doing improv with strangers in a customer service capacity would be unbearable to me.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 10:28 AM on May 21 [3 favorites]
Absolutely. I love TTRPGs, but bad life experiences have given me a fear of the dark places where people cannot perceive the boundaries between reality and fantasy. So I get nervous about an immersive LARP where the NPCs (as it were) are essentially in customer service jobs and do not have the autonomy to behave as equal players in a traditional LARP.
But again, this is a hangup! If people are safe and sane, it shouldn't be a problem. The thing is, when American customers spend thousands to give themselves and their kids a big old Experience, you are not going to get safety and sanity from everybody.
posted by Countess Elena at 10:52 AM on May 21 [3 favorites]
But again, this is a hangup! If people are safe and sane, it shouldn't be a problem. The thing is, when American customers spend thousands to give themselves and their kids a big old Experience, you are not going to get safety and sanity from everybody.
posted by Countess Elena at 10:52 AM on May 21 [3 favorites]
I'm a smidge over halfway through, and I'm impressed both with Nicholson being willing to point out the parts that worked for her, and for her thorough analysis of the parts that didn't. In particular, the part where she goes over the failure of the app in helping her get on a particular path and get missions, and Disney's failures with SW apps in the past, really hits hard. Maybe people are used to buying AAA games that are still basically in beta, but those are $60, not $6K, and you will (probably) eventually get a fully playable game.
posted by Halloween Jack at 1:56 PM on May 21 [6 favorites]
posted by Halloween Jack at 1:56 PM on May 21 [6 favorites]
I see that we have passed into the portion of the Metafilter immersive experience where people who have watched a four hour video of one person’s trip to the Starcruiser now know more about it than three people who spent three days there each.
People, people! I haven't watched the video or experienced the trip so hear me out…
posted by mazola at 5:46 PM on May 21 [3 favorites]
People, people! I haven't watched the video or experienced the trip so hear me out…
posted by mazola at 5:46 PM on May 21 [3 favorites]
Finished it, and as with the Evermore video, totally worth the time invested for a deep dive into something that I probably wouldn't have done even when it was doable.
posted by Halloween Jack at 2:50 PM on May 22 [3 favorites]
posted by Halloween Jack at 2:50 PM on May 22 [3 favorites]
"I heard there was at least one mission that sends you to the Cantina to collect a message from the barkeeper, and that sounded a little interesting because the Cantina is a cool place with a robot inside."
Ah, classic Jenny Nicholson.
"But because you don't have a reservation at the Cantina, you're not allowed to go inside."
🙄
posted by Phssthpok at 3:38 PM on May 22 [1 favorite]
Ah, classic Jenny Nicholson.
"But because you don't have a reservation at the Cantina, you're not allowed to go inside."
🙄
posted by Phssthpok at 3:38 PM on May 22 [1 favorite]
I thought Metafilter liked it when members shared their firsthand experiences - I guess maybe not, if they disagree with Jenny Nicholson.Well, if you’re going to force a comparison like that- four hours of exposition and examination beats 12,000 words, sorry. It’s not that your experiences are invalid, it’s that your medium of relaying that experience is less immersive than hers.
No one here is invalidating the enjoyment you experienced. It’s just those who are moved by the video’s (quite voluminous) evidence see that it’s probably not worth dropping several grands for.
posted by Apocryphon at 12:33 AM on May 23 [5 favorites]
I'm about an hour in, but wow the marketing videos really were terrible. And the fake-ass podcast? Pretty unimmersive right from the start, or actually way way before the start.
posted by fridgebuzz at 7:35 AM on May 23
posted by fridgebuzz at 7:35 AM on May 23
200% Eponysterical, yes, since I largely switched to using the twins name post transition.
I mean, giving a rousing and full voiced denouncing of fascism is a great ideal, but also in universe the fascists have guns and authority and no oversight. It's the classic hostage situation... Do you stand for principle and hope the bad guys don't blow up your ship full of civilians under your responsibility?
Also funny how much debate over an experience that didn't survive and is no longer available, alas
posted by Jacen at 7:37 AM on May 23 [1 favorite]
I mean, giving a rousing and full voiced denouncing of fascism is a great ideal, but also in universe the fascists have guns and authority and no oversight. It's the classic hostage situation... Do you stand for principle and hope the bad guys don't blow up your ship full of civilians under your responsibility?
Also funny how much debate over an experience that didn't survive and is no longer available, alas
posted by Jacen at 7:37 AM on May 23 [1 favorite]
Also you’re probably calling out a bunch of ten year olds for siding with the Nazis, which is fair enough because they did, but I can see problems with that (mostly extensions of giving that option in the first place).
posted by Artw at 11:21 AM on May 23
posted by Artw at 11:21 AM on May 23
I really sort of wish they would Star Wars only without the central mythos even being a part of it. What about Cheers only on a bar in Coruscant? A Love Boat type show on a galactic starcruiser? Lucas was developing a live detective show set on Coruscant in the years before he sold to Disney.
It's just such an interesting universe, but there's always a Black Jacketed presence or a Skywalker wandering around, and that's just not the interesting part of that universe. When Star Wars first came out, what was new and special about it was the entire gigantic world it implied. This was lived-in and grungy and obviously had a deep history [which it did not at the time, but was made to feel like it did] and even while watching Luke and Han, the implications were gazillions of lives on a zillion planets.
I know it's never really going to happen, but there is a giant wealth of possibility to tap into that Disney is just leaving on the table.
posted by hippybear at 12:19 PM on May 23 [3 favorites]
It's just such an interesting universe, but there's always a Black Jacketed presence or a Skywalker wandering around, and that's just not the interesting part of that universe. When Star Wars first came out, what was new and special about it was the entire gigantic world it implied. This was lived-in and grungy and obviously had a deep history [which it did not at the time, but was made to feel like it did] and even while watching Luke and Han, the implications were gazillions of lives on a zillion planets.
I know it's never really going to happen, but there is a giant wealth of possibility to tap into that Disney is just leaving on the table.
posted by hippybear at 12:19 PM on May 23 [3 favorites]
Also, the soundtrack album for the Cantina, the music is interesting but not nearly as interesting as for the Galactic Starcruiser.
posted by hippybear at 12:21 PM on May 23
posted by hippybear at 12:21 PM on May 23
The empire is striking back in a Screenrant article.
posted by fleacircus at 2:31 PM on May 23 [1 favorite]
posted by fleacircus at 2:31 PM on May 23 [1 favorite]
Thanks for posting that, fleacircus. I've been wondering what cast members thought about being a part of the experience. If you're the right personality type, having a job where you get to go play pretend for eight hours a day with a quality script and a new group of participants every few days could be quite a great experience. The way this author describes the experience actually makes me think that working there might have been a blast.
posted by hippybear at 2:50 PM on May 23 [1 favorite]
posted by hippybear at 2:50 PM on May 23 [1 favorite]
Kind of side-eyeing that Screenrant article. Admits that she didn't learn about the closure until just before it was announced, but insists that, even though she allows that "It doesn't mean these reviews shouldn't exist nor be shared", still, "it does little except hurt those who were perhaps the most affected by its closure - despite any good intentions." Nicholson's main criticisms are aimed squarely at the corporate decisions.
posted by Halloween Jack at 6:47 PM on May 23 [2 favorites]
posted by Halloween Jack at 6:47 PM on May 23 [2 favorites]
While it's important that each review is heard and received, and that everyone has a right to share the honesty of their own experiences, there's no longer anything to gain from it.Ironic to see that coming from an article which, up to that point, mostly reads like an advertisement for an attraction that no longer exists!
posted by Apocryphon at 7:43 PM on May 23
Well, I mean, truly.. if you haven't drunk the Kool-aid at least a little bit would you even buy into this kind of job?
What's miraculous about LA and Orlando is you could even cast something like that, probably what? Three casts in a week? And I don't know how the background cast members are rotated in and out.
I find the whole endeavor, the more I learn about it, to be really fascinating.
I suspect that Disney has learned a TON of lessons about how this kind of experience can work, based not only on them refining the experience from opening to close but them also maybe doing A/B testing in various ways that none of us will ever know about.
There's a genuine possibility that maybe in a few years Disney opens up another immersive experience that works better than this one, and that closes in under two years. That much more research.
At some point they might actually achieve a quality weekend immersive experience that works for everyone that goes into it. A Rise Of The Resistance only lasting 2-3 days.
Honestly, I'm not unhappy about that being developed. Maybe I'd rather it not be developed by Disney, but if one can create it, others can duplicate and innovate.
I'll probably be long dead... but it's possible the future of the theme park experience includes a whole immersive LARP experience regularly, entirely aside from the rides and food.
posted by hippybear at 7:55 PM on May 23 [1 favorite]
What's miraculous about LA and Orlando is you could even cast something like that, probably what? Three casts in a week? And I don't know how the background cast members are rotated in and out.
I find the whole endeavor, the more I learn about it, to be really fascinating.
I suspect that Disney has learned a TON of lessons about how this kind of experience can work, based not only on them refining the experience from opening to close but them also maybe doing A/B testing in various ways that none of us will ever know about.
There's a genuine possibility that maybe in a few years Disney opens up another immersive experience that works better than this one, and that closes in under two years. That much more research.
At some point they might actually achieve a quality weekend immersive experience that works for everyone that goes into it. A Rise Of The Resistance only lasting 2-3 days.
Honestly, I'm not unhappy about that being developed. Maybe I'd rather it not be developed by Disney, but if one can create it, others can duplicate and innovate.
I'll probably be long dead... but it's possible the future of the theme park experience includes a whole immersive LARP experience regularly, entirely aside from the rides and food.
posted by hippybear at 7:55 PM on May 23 [1 favorite]
What's interesting is this concern-trolling over this YouTube review very much matches the flack that tech reviewer Marques Brownlee (MKBHD) received recently over his negative review of the Humane AI Pin, calling it the worst product he's ever reviewed, subsequently receiving backlash from some pro-Humane tech influencer for "Potentially killing someone else’s nascent project reeks of carelessness." and "almost unethical" behavior. Leading to MKBHD making a subsequent video called "Do Bad Reviews Kill Companies?" after the ensuing controversy (which, to be fair, seems to be mostly one-sided in favor of the critics and skeptics).
I actually agree with MKBHD's slight allowance "that the packaging was too clickbaity," which in some ways his original video had in common with Jenny's review title ("spectacular failure"). But having seen plenty of informative review accounts and the like indulge in clickbait formatting, I just have to say that's how the game is played on that platform. Even highly respectable accounts with solid content will often use hyperbole in their titles and thumbnails. But in both cases, if one actually examines what the reviews provide, what you see is a lot of carefully-considered, nuanced, thoughtful examinations that are balanced. So I think, ironically, the critics of the critics are falling for clickbait and assuming that all these reviews do is to trash the product, when they're usually quick to point out the positive aspects of what they're critiquing as anything else.
posted by Apocryphon at 11:58 PM on May 23 [4 favorites]
I actually agree with MKBHD's slight allowance "that the packaging was too clickbaity," which in some ways his original video had in common with Jenny's review title ("spectacular failure"). But having seen plenty of informative review accounts and the like indulge in clickbait formatting, I just have to say that's how the game is played on that platform. Even highly respectable accounts with solid content will often use hyperbole in their titles and thumbnails. But in both cases, if one actually examines what the reviews provide, what you see is a lot of carefully-considered, nuanced, thoughtful examinations that are balanced. So I think, ironically, the critics of the critics are falling for clickbait and assuming that all these reviews do is to trash the product, when they're usually quick to point out the positive aspects of what they're critiquing as anything else.
posted by Apocryphon at 11:58 PM on May 23 [4 favorites]
Finally finished this and not sure what to say! The final theme song is great.
I'm a fan of Jenny Nicholson so I've been waiting for this for ages and loved it.
One thing is that her latest YouTube video before this was the Evermore video which dropped on Nov 5, 2022. So if you like her videos you've been waiting for this for well over a year.
I think some of the people who complain about the length of these videos don't quite get the effort involved. Even short videos take vastly longer to edit and create than people think. A four hour video doesn't mean someone plopped down in a chair and did a stream of consciousness ramble for four hours. It's a vast amount of labour to put something like this together.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 8:46 AM on May 24 [5 favorites]
I'm a fan of Jenny Nicholson so I've been waiting for this for ages and loved it.
One thing is that her latest YouTube video before this was the Evermore video which dropped on Nov 5, 2022. So if you like her videos you've been waiting for this for well over a year.
I think some of the people who complain about the length of these videos don't quite get the effort involved. Even short videos take vastly longer to edit and create than people think. A four hour video doesn't mean someone plopped down in a chair and did a stream of consciousness ramble for four hours. It's a vast amount of labour to put something like this together.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 8:46 AM on May 24 [5 favorites]
I think some of the people who complain about the length of these videos don't quite get the effort involved.
I mean, this one was SO carefully constructed. I'd have to watch it again to truly admire how it went, but it started with high level information and moved constantly in toward more detailed information. She routinely did foreshadowing of subjects to draw the viewer along the timeline. The whole thing had such a definite structure and worked so well to lead the viewer along the line of thought she wanted to impart. It's really great.
I think people who complain about video length are actually generally saying "this is a topic I find interesting, but I don't have THAT level of interest in the topic" and that's fully valid. I generally enjoy longer form videos, but I do acknowledge there are videos that don't need to be as long as they are to make their point.
I think Jenny's video needs to be this long to make the point. But I understand people not being 4-hours-worth-of-interested in the topic. And that's fine.
I don't understand the need to complain about it, though. Why not, maybe, research the topic and post a 20 minute video in the comment stream that you think sums things up and say "tl;dr [video link]"?
But yes, complaining is a popular pastime here on MetaFilter. I've been here long enough, I hardly note it much anymore.
posted by hippybear at 1:57 PM on May 24 [5 favorites]
I mean, this one was SO carefully constructed. I'd have to watch it again to truly admire how it went, but it started with high level information and moved constantly in toward more detailed information. She routinely did foreshadowing of subjects to draw the viewer along the timeline. The whole thing had such a definite structure and worked so well to lead the viewer along the line of thought she wanted to impart. It's really great.
I think people who complain about video length are actually generally saying "this is a topic I find interesting, but I don't have THAT level of interest in the topic" and that's fully valid. I generally enjoy longer form videos, but I do acknowledge there are videos that don't need to be as long as they are to make their point.
I think Jenny's video needs to be this long to make the point. But I understand people not being 4-hours-worth-of-interested in the topic. And that's fine.
I don't understand the need to complain about it, though. Why not, maybe, research the topic and post a 20 minute video in the comment stream that you think sums things up and say "tl;dr [video link]"?
But yes, complaining is a popular pastime here on MetaFilter. I've been here long enough, I hardly note it much anymore.
posted by hippybear at 1:57 PM on May 24 [5 favorites]
Okay, so the music on R3X's Playlist #2 is actually really creative and fun.
Generally, I'm truly grooving on all the music they've created for bar/lounge/club music for the Star Wars universe. The remakes of the original Cantina Band song are atrocious and should be killed with fire, but otherwise, it's a really fun take on music. I wish it were slightly more weird, but this IS Disney we're talking about.
Here's all of R3X's tracks in one playlist, if you're into that sort of thing. This stuff gets wild at times. Like, bringing to mind Nina Hagen in the track I'm listening to right now, but it's so varied and intense and weird.
Weird music is good music.
posted by hippybear at 3:54 PM on May 24 [2 favorites]
Generally, I'm truly grooving on all the music they've created for bar/lounge/club music for the Star Wars universe. The remakes of the original Cantina Band song are atrocious and should be killed with fire, but otherwise, it's a really fun take on music. I wish it were slightly more weird, but this IS Disney we're talking about.
Here's all of R3X's tracks in one playlist, if you're into that sort of thing. This stuff gets wild at times. Like, bringing to mind Nina Hagen in the track I'm listening to right now, but it's so varied and intense and weird.
Weird music is good music.
posted by hippybear at 3:54 PM on May 24 [2 favorites]
The thing that I really came away with, it that it was possible to have a magical time, but very easy to fall through the cracks. And that at that price point you really can't justify folks falling through the cracks like that. It sounds like both the app was borked, but also that some folks didn't get any on-ramps. I love what the ideal sounds like, but do get that folks who didn't get it felt underwhelmed.
posted by Carillon at 10:29 PM on May 24 [5 favorites]
posted by Carillon at 10:29 PM on May 24 [5 favorites]
ALSO, Star Wars Galaxies died so people could, in real life, sit around listening to Twi'lek and Togruta just jam on musical instruments.
posted by Carillon at 10:41 PM on May 24 [4 favorites]
posted by Carillon at 10:41 PM on May 24 [4 favorites]
Okay, I loved her alien equivalent of the purse dog. And the alien band music is pretty cool, actually?
(kinda off-and-on slowly watching this)
posted by jenfullmoon at 12:42 PM on May 25 [1 favorite]
(kinda off-and-on slowly watching this)
posted by jenfullmoon at 12:42 PM on May 25 [1 favorite]
I've never seen her videos before and I REALLY enjoyed this. Would be a great piece to use for a business class.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 4:45 PM on May 25 [1 favorite]
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 4:45 PM on May 25 [1 favorite]
Oh, you haven’t even seen the Church Play Cinematic Universe.
posted by Artw at 5:36 PM on May 25 [3 favorites]
posted by Artw at 5:36 PM on May 25 [3 favorites]
The thing that I really came away with, it that it was possible to have a magical time, but very easy to fall through the cracks. And that at that price point you really can't justify folks falling through the cracks like that. It sounds like both the app was borked, but also that some folks didn't get any on-ramps. I love what the ideal sounds like, but do get that folks who didn't get it felt underwhelmed.
This is a point that some people who are dismissing Jenny, and who haven’t watched the entirety of her video, are missing.
She paid to go to the hotel, and went into it fully committed. She is a Star Wars fan. She had outfits, and her alien “purse dog” and made up her own character. She tried to enjoy it in good faith. She is not a “hater” who was only there to tear it down.
Disney let her down in just about every way possible, from the app, to her seating at dinner, down to even mailing packages home.
posted by Fleebnork at 6:51 AM on May 26 [17 favorites]
This is a point that some people who are dismissing Jenny, and who haven’t watched the entirety of her video, are missing.
She paid to go to the hotel, and went into it fully committed. She is a Star Wars fan. She had outfits, and her alien “purse dog” and made up her own character. She tried to enjoy it in good faith. She is not a “hater” who was only there to tear it down.
Disney let her down in just about every way possible, from the app, to her seating at dinner, down to even mailing packages home.
posted by Fleebnork at 6:51 AM on May 26 [17 favorites]
I came back here to say: I watched the video gradually over the last few days, and the depth of knowledge/analysis was really remarkable— I can only imagine how long it took to assemble this. And it really was engaging all the way through (and I am not ordinarily one to engage with video essays.) As someone posted above, it really would make an excellent business class — especially at the end when she pointed out how Disney limited themselves in the very construction of the building.
I thought there was a post above that referenced Secret Cinema, but I can’t find it now. I did two of those, the last one being Stranger Things in February 2020, right before the pandemic struck. It was absolutely incredible— really well planned— interactive/immersive in ways that accommodated all levels of willingness to engage— directed quests and “free exploration” all building up to a shared experience. I spent about 6 hours there, at a cost of £75 and it was one of the best experiences I’ve ever had. It was all set in the mall from S3 of the show. I can’t even guess at the time it took to create that experience— let alone the number of actors and staff (security etc) needed. That was one of those experiences where you leave your phone locked in a bag when you enter— smart I think.
So this experience, as JN explains it, did seem to break down at the point of game construction— a lot of scanning with your phone rather than being in (say) a series of escape room type experiences.
I have been a fairly devoted Disney fan most of my life — lucky enough to have relatives near both US parks — visited Disneyland Paris in 2019. As a theater professional, I also take interest in the logistical side of things — what are the aspects of an experience that engage the audience— and which things feel like they chisel away at the perception of a luxury experience. I thought her insight into that was very enlightening. I don’t recall my experience at the Paris park to be full of add-ons — I did know enough to reserve restaurants ahead and so on. But what I have heard about Disney making more and more things be extra costs — Fast Pass and so on — makes me think that she is right on in saying at the end that eventually Disney will burnout its loyal fans with cheapening everything.
posted by profreader at 10:54 AM on May 26 [3 favorites]
I thought there was a post above that referenced Secret Cinema, but I can’t find it now. I did two of those, the last one being Stranger Things in February 2020, right before the pandemic struck. It was absolutely incredible— really well planned— interactive/immersive in ways that accommodated all levels of willingness to engage— directed quests and “free exploration” all building up to a shared experience. I spent about 6 hours there, at a cost of £75 and it was one of the best experiences I’ve ever had. It was all set in the mall from S3 of the show. I can’t even guess at the time it took to create that experience— let alone the number of actors and staff (security etc) needed. That was one of those experiences where you leave your phone locked in a bag when you enter— smart I think.
So this experience, as JN explains it, did seem to break down at the point of game construction— a lot of scanning with your phone rather than being in (say) a series of escape room type experiences.
I have been a fairly devoted Disney fan most of my life — lucky enough to have relatives near both US parks — visited Disneyland Paris in 2019. As a theater professional, I also take interest in the logistical side of things — what are the aspects of an experience that engage the audience— and which things feel like they chisel away at the perception of a luxury experience. I thought her insight into that was very enlightening. I don’t recall my experience at the Paris park to be full of add-ons — I did know enough to reserve restaurants ahead and so on. But what I have heard about Disney making more and more things be extra costs — Fast Pass and so on — makes me think that she is right on in saying at the end that eventually Disney will burnout its loyal fans with cheapening everything.
posted by profreader at 10:54 AM on May 26 [3 favorites]
Hopefully this works... Unlocked due to all the interest:
A More Civilized September Bonusode: Galactic Starcruiser Audio Diaries
As promised, here are our night 1 and night 2, recorded-on-a-phone Starcruiser diaries! As you'll hear, some of this is material we talked through on the main feed episode, but some of it is really grounded in the then-and-thereness of it all.
posted by Artw at 2:07 PM on May 26 [3 favorites]
A More Civilized September Bonusode: Galactic Starcruiser Audio Diaries
As promised, here are our night 1 and night 2, recorded-on-a-phone Starcruiser diaries! As you'll hear, some of this is material we talked through on the main feed episode, but some of it is really grounded in the then-and-thereness of it all.
posted by Artw at 2:07 PM on May 26 [3 favorites]
Who has time to watch a 4-hour YouTube video? Millions of us, it turns out
This week, as YouTuber Jenny Nicholson’s review/eulogy for the shuttered Disney Star Wars hotel started making the rounds, I was curious. I’d of course heard about the “immersive experience” officially called Star Wars: Galactic Starcruiser, and here was someone who’d actually experienced the, um, experience. But then I saw the video’s running time – four hours and five minutes! – and I closed the tab faster than I do whenever the algorithm wants to show me some dumbass trying to pick up a cobra.posted by jenfullmoon at 8:47 PM on May 26
Who has the kind of time, I wondered, to sit around and watch YouTube for half the damn workday? In this, the era of TikTok? And Reels? And in what is, we have all been repeatedly assured, a time of shrinking attention spans?
In the case of Nicholson’s Starcruiser video, millions and millions of people have the time, it turns out. And she’s not alone: Over the past few years, you may have noticed YouTube suggesting videos to you so long they make Lawrence of Arabia seem downright punchy.
I Worked At The Galactic Starcruiser, & I Can Tell You What Everyone's Getting Wrong About The "Star Wars Hotel"
"I have to have a chuckle at the Screenrant article posted recently about the Galactic Starcruiser, which totally wasn’t about Jenny Nicholson’s video honest.... It READS like a press release, not something a normal human being would write about an experience they feel passionate about."
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:21 PM on May 26 [11 favorites]
"I have to have a chuckle at the Screenrant article posted recently about the Galactic Starcruiser, which totally wasn’t about Jenny Nicholson’s video honest.... It READS like a press release, not something a normal human being would write about an experience they feel passionate about."
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:21 PM on May 26 [11 favorites]
Yeah I feel like the 'actually I had a great time' crowd are missing the point?
Where she really brings it home is the YOU'VE BEEN ROBBED section at end - this is Disney overselling something they at best could not deliver and more likely never intended to, getting away with an incredibly inflated price tag because of fan's enthusiasm and trust in Disney, while taking economic advantage of actors and staff (and I'm sure designers, builders etc) that go above and beyond. This is a megacorp taking the piss, so even if actually the experience worked for you and felt incredible- you've still been robbed? Laser sharp minmaxing of minimal cost to maximum price factoring in the 'yeah we can cut that and this because the fans will still take it'.
Jenny's experience isn't just on the sharper end, the reason she goes into such exhaustive detail is because every part of the project is 'what's the least we can get away with, while charging $6k' - and as a result of this structural skimping her app was broken and so was the rest of the immersive experience. She was caught on the sharp edges made by Disney creating the most economically exploitative experience they could.
And as Jenny says - this price tag is being paid yes by rich people fine, but also by middle class people taking out mortgages so their kids can experience the magic. Or nerds who don't mind eating more rice and beans for half a year to save. It's right to be angry that Disney robbed them as much as it could get away with. Her point about it having just enough good stuff to fill out a TikTok and no more feels right - what's the least we can get away with while selling this thing.
Honestly am glad to hear from people this worked for because damn does it sound magic (and honestly something in a different life I'd like to have experienced), but don't let that distract from her main point: Disney pissing on fans and telling them it's raining.
posted by litleozy at 5:48 AM on May 27 [5 favorites]
Where she really brings it home is the YOU'VE BEEN ROBBED section at end - this is Disney overselling something they at best could not deliver and more likely never intended to, getting away with an incredibly inflated price tag because of fan's enthusiasm and trust in Disney, while taking economic advantage of actors and staff (and I'm sure designers, builders etc) that go above and beyond. This is a megacorp taking the piss, so even if actually the experience worked for you and felt incredible- you've still been robbed? Laser sharp minmaxing of minimal cost to maximum price factoring in the 'yeah we can cut that and this because the fans will still take it'.
Jenny's experience isn't just on the sharper end, the reason she goes into such exhaustive detail is because every part of the project is 'what's the least we can get away with, while charging $6k' - and as a result of this structural skimping her app was broken and so was the rest of the immersive experience. She was caught on the sharp edges made by Disney creating the most economically exploitative experience they could.
And as Jenny says - this price tag is being paid yes by rich people fine, but also by middle class people taking out mortgages so their kids can experience the magic. Or nerds who don't mind eating more rice and beans for half a year to save. It's right to be angry that Disney robbed them as much as it could get away with. Her point about it having just enough good stuff to fill out a TikTok and no more feels right - what's the least we can get away with while selling this thing.
Honestly am glad to hear from people this worked for because damn does it sound magic (and honestly something in a different life I'd like to have experienced), but don't let that distract from her main point: Disney pissing on fans and telling them it's raining.
posted by litleozy at 5:48 AM on May 27 [5 favorites]
The way I see it, this discourse is almost unanimously on the side of Jenny Nicholson because it certainly feels like she's speaking truth to power. Not only the object of her ire is Disney, a very easy target, even in her video she's very good at sprinkling nuggets for the everyperson viewer ("If I wasn't an influencer with a lot of followers, I'd be in trouble! They wouldn't have fixed this problem for me!"). There's certainly YouTubers that tap into that sentiment, I am reminded of the work of say Coffezilla (Stephen Findeisen), an internet scam debunker who despite indulging in the usual clickbait thumbnail/title formatting of the platform, does a lot of good work- he got SBF to admit to fraud in an interview, after all. Getting back to this post, Jenny's video doesn't even really have a clickbait thumbnail, even if the title does sound a little definitive. And she’s definitely fitting the role of people’s advocate here, whether intentionally or not.
And when people go against this narrative, they find themselves fighting against the culture. This is the most unifying online pop culture moment of the month. It's like telling Kendrick Lamar and Drake to knock it off a few weeks ago. People will get parasocially defensive over their perceived champions.
posted by Apocryphon at 10:34 AM on May 27 [4 favorites]
And when people go against this narrative, they find themselves fighting against the culture. This is the most unifying online pop culture moment of the month. It's like telling Kendrick Lamar and Drake to knock it off a few weeks ago. People will get parasocially defensive over their perceived champions.
posted by Apocryphon at 10:34 AM on May 27 [4 favorites]
the title does sound a little definitive
Ehh… Star Wars hotel failed, spectacularly. Not sure there’s anything to be gained from pretending otherwise.
posted by Artw at 12:46 PM on May 27 [2 favorites]
Ehh… Star Wars hotel failed, spectacularly. Not sure there’s anything to be gained from pretending otherwise.
posted by Artw at 12:46 PM on May 27 [2 favorites]
I honestly thought it was going to survive for several years and had put it on my list of "I will do that someday". Eighteen months is truly a spectacular failure.
posted by hippybear at 6:26 PM on May 27 [3 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 6:26 PM on May 27 [3 favorites]
The really sad thing about this is that it was a solid idea. I'm not much of a Star Wars fan, but if it had been implemented much better, and cost much less, I might have gone some day. But it was half-assed, and way too pricey at that, and so now Disney will assume the whole idea can't be made to work, and other companies will assume the same thing, because it's going to become Conventional Wisdom now that it couldn't possibly work. Because there is no tribe on this Earth more vulnerable to groupthink than corporate executives, no matter what they think about themselves.
posted by JHarris at 11:41 PM on May 27
posted by JHarris at 11:41 PM on May 27
I've nearly watched half of it now, and the best part so far is the discussion of the game-like aspects, which begins at nearly exactly 1 hour 30 minutes and goes through two complete parts.
While Disney hasn't released the details of how the story paths and their game-like elements work, Jenny makes some decent guesses based on what little we do know, which likely includes information piped, through earpieces, to actors playing their roles at their timed appearance points.
The patron's story and game experience heavily relies on a mobile app, which collects taps/scans of specific objects, uses GPS to follow their movements, presents texts from key characters, allows access to otherwise-locked areas, offers information on how each character feels about the guest, and generally serves as an attempt to make the experience as customized and cohesive as possible.
The system that Jenny hypothesizes is wildly ambitious, and I'd love to read the design document behind it all. The Imagineers who designed the system aimed for the moon. But in many cases it simply didn't work. The app appears to have been a major point of failure. It certainly failed Jenny, who found that she was rated neutral for characters she spent a lot of time with, and in the favor of characters she never physically met. She didn't receive important texts with essential puzzle-solving information, and was generally adrift as far as her story went.
And it doesn't look like the game was designed too well to accommodate patrons who fell through the tracks. Which is a difficult problem: if you've designed this deep and complex system to shepherd a large number of people through multiple variations of three complete story tracks, with what they experience being based directly upon their actions, what do you do with people who, through either app malfunction or just activity disinterest, don't give the system enough information to assign them a storyline? What if you sleep in on the first day? What if you spend most of the evening loading up on the complimentary food in the lounge? What if you just don't give a damn the entire first day?
If you haven't met anyone on day one, but decide to get it in gear on day two, what do you do with those people when so much of the experience involved tightly scheduled interactions with actors? What if you get pushed into a storyline you didn't want? Jenny offers some theories that it's possible that some guests were arbitrarily placed on certain story paths, either to even out their numbers, or to just callously give guests a random experience that doesn't actually care about what they've done or want, and tried to coast by on the positive experiences of the users who got stories that by chance appeared to follow from their actions. If that's true it's terrible, considering that guests each paid $3K for a two night stay, that they probably would never be able to take again, a once-in-a-lifetime shot.
I would observe, also, that it's a complex system, designed for exploration and replayability, but even fewer guests would be able to afford to participate the multiple times that such a system would seem to anticipate. And I wonder if the story evolved throughout the event's short life, like if it began even more insanely complex, but over the months the unworkable parts were abandoned or had their corners broken off, and eventually patrons were left with a much simpler, but also much less customized, and more random, experience?
I would really like to get the opinion of a professional RPG writer (maybe Hogshead?) on the aspects of the game that Jenny observed. It really seems like a system that was doomed to fail, having to accommodate the interests and energy of so many different people, many of them children, also many of them superfans. The "puzzles" would have to be simple, to allow kids to play, so even though there's been a lot of this type of game design in the likes of escape rooms, clues of that level of complexity would almost certainly be unsuitable.
I see so much potential in this kind of game, it really was something the likes of which had never been seen before. A LARP the size of an entire hotel! With its heavy focus on timed encounters, I'm reminded of Nintendo's experiments with their failed Satellaview add-on, through which, at specific times, people could play remakes of their classic games that were synced with a broadcast audio drama, which heralded special events that would occur at specific moments of the program. Except by incorporating real actors in the game, Disney was trying something even more ambitious. If they had been up to the task, how wonderful it could have been!
posted by JHarris at 3:58 AM on May 29 [4 favorites]
While Disney hasn't released the details of how the story paths and their game-like elements work, Jenny makes some decent guesses based on what little we do know, which likely includes information piped, through earpieces, to actors playing their roles at their timed appearance points.
The patron's story and game experience heavily relies on a mobile app, which collects taps/scans of specific objects, uses GPS to follow their movements, presents texts from key characters, allows access to otherwise-locked areas, offers information on how each character feels about the guest, and generally serves as an attempt to make the experience as customized and cohesive as possible.
The system that Jenny hypothesizes is wildly ambitious, and I'd love to read the design document behind it all. The Imagineers who designed the system aimed for the moon. But in many cases it simply didn't work. The app appears to have been a major point of failure. It certainly failed Jenny, who found that she was rated neutral for characters she spent a lot of time with, and in the favor of characters she never physically met. She didn't receive important texts with essential puzzle-solving information, and was generally adrift as far as her story went.
And it doesn't look like the game was designed too well to accommodate patrons who fell through the tracks. Which is a difficult problem: if you've designed this deep and complex system to shepherd a large number of people through multiple variations of three complete story tracks, with what they experience being based directly upon their actions, what do you do with people who, through either app malfunction or just activity disinterest, don't give the system enough information to assign them a storyline? What if you sleep in on the first day? What if you spend most of the evening loading up on the complimentary food in the lounge? What if you just don't give a damn the entire first day?
If you haven't met anyone on day one, but decide to get it in gear on day two, what do you do with those people when so much of the experience involved tightly scheduled interactions with actors? What if you get pushed into a storyline you didn't want? Jenny offers some theories that it's possible that some guests were arbitrarily placed on certain story paths, either to even out their numbers, or to just callously give guests a random experience that doesn't actually care about what they've done or want, and tried to coast by on the positive experiences of the users who got stories that by chance appeared to follow from their actions. If that's true it's terrible, considering that guests each paid $3K for a two night stay, that they probably would never be able to take again, a once-in-a-lifetime shot.
I would observe, also, that it's a complex system, designed for exploration and replayability, but even fewer guests would be able to afford to participate the multiple times that such a system would seem to anticipate. And I wonder if the story evolved throughout the event's short life, like if it began even more insanely complex, but over the months the unworkable parts were abandoned or had their corners broken off, and eventually patrons were left with a much simpler, but also much less customized, and more random, experience?
I would really like to get the opinion of a professional RPG writer (maybe Hogshead?) on the aspects of the game that Jenny observed. It really seems like a system that was doomed to fail, having to accommodate the interests and energy of so many different people, many of them children, also many of them superfans. The "puzzles" would have to be simple, to allow kids to play, so even though there's been a lot of this type of game design in the likes of escape rooms, clues of that level of complexity would almost certainly be unsuitable.
I see so much potential in this kind of game, it really was something the likes of which had never been seen before. A LARP the size of an entire hotel! With its heavy focus on timed encounters, I'm reminded of Nintendo's experiments with their failed Satellaview add-on, through which, at specific times, people could play remakes of their classic games that were synced with a broadcast audio drama, which heralded special events that would occur at specific moments of the program. Except by incorporating real actors in the game, Disney was trying something even more ambitious. If they had been up to the task, how wonderful it could have been!
posted by JHarris at 3:58 AM on May 29 [4 favorites]
Disney’s Star Wars hotel Galactic Starcruiser was torpedoed by bad app design
posted by Artw at 9:06 AM on May 29 [3 favorites]
posted by Artw at 9:06 AM on May 29 [3 favorites]
Something important to Nicholson's analysis, on my read, is that the hotel offered as a severe upsell what had been originally intended as components available in Start Wars Land just for the price of entry. She lays the evidence out for this very well, using interviews and press materials from the opening of the land that highlight elements that never showed up ... Until they were added in to the hotel experience. They could have had these elements readily available in the theme park, but that just wouldn't do enough to extract as much money as possible from guests. The magic promised by the name Disney was available, but only behind an extravagant paywall.
posted by meese at 12:44 PM on May 29 [2 favorites]
posted by meese at 12:44 PM on May 29 [2 favorites]
And I just cannot get over the poor planning and stinginess that had one mission require you to go to the Cantina, except you couldn't get in without a reservation. Like, what even is that? You get to stand outside like a refused beggar, until they throw you a little piece of cardboard with a QR code on it? What an absolute letdown that could've been so easily avoided!
posted by meese at 12:46 PM on May 29 [3 favorites]
posted by meese at 12:46 PM on May 29 [3 favorites]
Still working through the video, a bit at a time.
Thinking about it more, if they had just dumped all of that linear storytelling, and just made it a Star Wars themed hotel, with an only slightly interactive story that unfolded around the guests, and no app and no restricted access parts, and was much cheaper of course (I cannot be in favor of anything that I'll never be able to afford to go to), it might work really well. the singer, the minigames, the actors, the windows, it could have worked out. But how many people go on a luxury vacation with a tight itenerary? There was barely any chance to do anything else. If there was some aspect of Star Wars you didn't care for, but got put onto a path that focused on it, then you're going to have $3,300 worth of bad times.
posted by JHarris at 4:07 PM on May 29 [1 favorite]
Thinking about it more, if they had just dumped all of that linear storytelling, and just made it a Star Wars themed hotel, with an only slightly interactive story that unfolded around the guests, and no app and no restricted access parts, and was much cheaper of course (I cannot be in favor of anything that I'll never be able to afford to go to), it might work really well. the singer, the minigames, the actors, the windows, it could have worked out. But how many people go on a luxury vacation with a tight itenerary? There was barely any chance to do anything else. If there was some aspect of Star Wars you didn't care for, but got put onto a path that focused on it, then you're going to have $3,300 worth of bad times.
posted by JHarris at 4:07 PM on May 29 [1 favorite]
When I worked story at the LARP, my motto was, "Everybody pays $35. Everybody gets to be Luke Skywalker." I never made a dime.
posted by ob1quixote at 5:55 PM on May 29 [4 favorites]
posted by ob1quixote at 5:55 PM on May 29 [4 favorites]
I really did like the "move the rocks with the Force" thing they were doing in the open air atrium/fake planet scape. It was clever and fun and the rocks could likely just be picked up and moved around outside of that demonstration. That it was such a limited experience would mean people could be talking about it during dinner or cocktail hour or whatever and having others be all "what? no! really?"
It's a small touch to the experience but is a lovely one and I'm glad it was included even if none of it exists anymore.
posted by hippybear at 7:23 PM on May 29 [4 favorites]
It's a small touch to the experience but is a lovely one and I'm glad it was included even if none of it exists anymore.
posted by hippybear at 7:23 PM on May 29 [4 favorites]
I was struck by the comparison between the much more interactive, FREE game at EPCOT in the late '00 using basic cellphone technology and the shitty QR code scanning game currently in place at Galaxy's Edge. I have to assume she saw it in action back when it was a thing because if not, that is a amazing bit of research.
posted by fiercekitten at 7:44 AM on May 31 [1 favorite]
posted by fiercekitten at 7:44 AM on May 31 [1 favorite]
I made it to the end! I did it by using NewPipe to download the audio and listening to it in pieces while driving around! It meant I didn't see much of the video of the hotel, but I did hear all the points she made! I really liked them!
posted by JHarris at 2:10 PM on May 31 [1 favorite]
posted by JHarris at 2:10 PM on May 31 [1 favorite]
Did you get your new Nicholson Achievement for your YouTube account? That badge lets others know you watched to the end!
posted by hippybear at 2:54 PM on May 31
posted by hippybear at 2:54 PM on May 31
I wasn't planning to watch this, but then I hit a second week of deranged people telling me to watch a 4-hour video, and finally succumbed.
I like Star Wars (even though my experience with almost every bit of Star Wars media is barely shackled disappointment). I don't really like Disney, and thought this experience seemed wildly overpriced to me (I would prefer to waste my money on different extravagant nonsense thanks). I love an exhaustive rundown of a failure, especially when it is clear the critic did not set out to dislike what they are critiquing, so this video was really enjoyable.
Honestly, I'm just here to let everyone know that the much cheaper, technically-not-Star-Wars, LARP-free dupe aesthetic hotel she mentioned is still around. (It promises an "immersive space station experience.") I wouldn't go on my own, but if an extended family vacation takes us to that part of Europe, I would absolutely steer us in that direction for a night....
posted by grandiloquiet at 3:29 PM on May 31 [4 favorites]
I like Star Wars (even though my experience with almost every bit of Star Wars media is barely shackled disappointment). I don't really like Disney, and thought this experience seemed wildly overpriced to me (I would prefer to waste my money on different extravagant nonsense thanks). I love an exhaustive rundown of a failure, especially when it is clear the critic did not set out to dislike what they are critiquing, so this video was really enjoyable.
Honestly, I'm just here to let everyone know that the much cheaper, technically-not-Star-Wars, LARP-free dupe aesthetic hotel she mentioned is still around. (It promises an "immersive space station experience.") I wouldn't go on my own, but if an extended family vacation takes us to that part of Europe, I would absolutely steer us in that direction for a night....
posted by grandiloquiet at 3:29 PM on May 31 [4 favorites]
A Response to "The Spectacular Failure of the Star Wars Hotel," Or On Ethics in Criticism
posted by kathryn at 4:15 PM on June 11 [2 favorites]
posted by kathryn at 4:15 PM on June 11 [2 favorites]
Ethics in Criticism [by YouTube Mega-Influencers?] The MKBHD phenomenon (or Coffeezilla), for Disney Star Wars!
Which of course is what Nicholson’s video is. It’s marketing for her brand.
Without taking sides, I will note that the review does really strike a populist tone, especially in chapter 17, the segment that the above response has such an issue about. In painting herself as concerned about middle-class families getting ripped off by a megacorporation, Nicholson really does unintentionally put herself in the archetype of the YouTuber muckraker.
She ends up brushing off all critiques of her position as coming from “die-hard fans” with “not good enough” arguments.
Honestly, if Nicholson really had a secret ax to grind with the review, one would think the real target would not be fans, but her fellow Star Wars influencers. Namely, those who got to go on the experience for free, receive preferential (or at least functioning) treatment, and whose snippets are highlighted in chapter 17.
If one was to really cast aspersions, one could think she was having sour grapes about this experience. And who could blame her? She had to pay six thousand bones, like everyone else. And in doing so, she's able to speak like to the "anyone else" in her audience who didn't go, or did go and had a dissatisfactory time, and become the champion of the people, against those influencers.
But that's just a speculative narrative.
posted by Apocryphon at 8:59 PM on June 11 [1 favorite]
Which of course is what Nicholson’s video is. It’s marketing for her brand.
Without taking sides, I will note that the review does really strike a populist tone, especially in chapter 17, the segment that the above response has such an issue about. In painting herself as concerned about middle-class families getting ripped off by a megacorporation, Nicholson really does unintentionally put herself in the archetype of the YouTuber muckraker.
She ends up brushing off all critiques of her position as coming from “die-hard fans” with “not good enough” arguments.
Honestly, if Nicholson really had a secret ax to grind with the review, one would think the real target would not be fans, but her fellow Star Wars influencers. Namely, those who got to go on the experience for free, receive preferential (or at least functioning) treatment, and whose snippets are highlighted in chapter 17.
If one was to really cast aspersions, one could think she was having sour grapes about this experience. And who could blame her? She had to pay six thousand bones, like everyone else. And in doing so, she's able to speak like to the "anyone else" in her audience who didn't go, or did go and had a dissatisfactory time, and become the champion of the people, against those influencers.
But that's just a speculative narrative.
posted by Apocryphon at 8:59 PM on June 11 [1 favorite]
A Response to "The Spectacular Failure of the Star Wars Hotel," Or On Ethics in Criticism
This article keeps calling Nicholson an influencer. That doesn't say all seem accurate to me, and honestly it feels a little demeaning. Has the term "influencer" been so watered down it now refers to anyone who is famous for doing stuff online?
posted by meese at 8:41 AM on June 12 [6 favorites]
This article keeps calling Nicholson an influencer. That doesn't say all seem accurate to me, and honestly it feels a little demeaning. Has the term "influencer" been so watered down it now refers to anyone who is famous for doing stuff online?
posted by meese at 8:41 AM on June 12 [6 favorites]
Hm... No, I'm going to go stronger:
Calling her an influencer and specifically referring to "journalistic ethics" is dogwhistle city.
Which is a shame, because I don't know who this guy is at all, and from the article it seems like he means to be responding to her argument in good faith.
posted by meese at 8:46 AM on June 12 [5 favorites]
Calling her an influencer and specifically referring to "journalistic ethics" is dogwhistle city.
Which is a shame, because I don't know who this guy is at all, and from the article it seems like he means to be responding to her argument in good faith.
posted by meese at 8:46 AM on June 12 [5 favorites]
Yeah I read his piece and I felt that calling her a journalist was giving her the least charitable reading possible. I wouldn't give someone shit for reviewing "The Acolyte" and not liking it, with detailed reasons about why and how it fails because it's CRITICISM not JOURNALISM. You just need to bring your receipts, just like Writing 101 taught you.
posted by fiercekitten at 10:19 AM on June 12 [1 favorite]
posted by fiercekitten at 10:19 AM on June 12 [1 favorite]
Kathryn, thanks for posting the link-- it was really interesting and nuanced, and the following passage in particular echoes something I have heard from a number of other people who experienced the Galactic Star Cruiser:
But for me, it comes down to this:
I love seeing talented people take creative risks. I love it when they take risks with tiny little zero-budget productions in their basement and I love it when they take risks with millions of dollars from a major corporation.
By all accounts, the Starcruiser represented Disney Imagineers taking a massive, experimental swing.
If the narrative is, "This is a bad product," then the lesson that Disney and other corporations will take away is, "Force creatives to play it safe."
If the narrative is, "The Imagineers made something amazing and the marketing department mis-sold it," then the lesson is, "Force marketing to sell what the creative people actually made."
Like I said, I never went on the Star Cruiser myself, so I don't know which narrative is true. But as somebody who wants more creative stuff in the world, I want the second one to be true. It's puzzling to me that so many people are enthusiastically embracing the other narrative, especially when it runs counter to the experience of most people who did experience the attraction.
posted by yankeefog at 6:14 AM on June 17 [2 favorites]
I went to Starcruiser expecting a LARP and I loved it. Nicholson went expecting a luxury experience and constantly found ways it fell short. I think both of these reactions are valid. And the fault of that is in Disney’s marketing. Nicholson walks through the marketing in detail in the second chapter of the video, and while I don’t know how comprehensive her analysis is, her take certainly matches what I knew about Starcruiser in the run-up to launch and I can absolutely see why she would walk away thinking she would have Disney luxury experience at this price point. She’s also very critical of some of the marketing elements, and I can’t argue with her evaluations.I've been trying to put my finger on why it bothers me that Nicholson's youtube essay has defined the Star Cruiser for so many people. I don't work for Disney! I am not particularly passionate about Star Wars! I never went on the Star Cruiser myself!
...When immersive people talk about why Starcruiser closed, this is what they talk about. How could such an amazing experience not sell tickets? Why would users show up and not know this was going to require LARP-levels of interaction? Disney did not pitch this correctly. Their marketing misrepresented the experience and did not explain what users were getting. That is a pure own-goal, an absolute failure on Disney’s part that if corrected could have prevented a lot of disappointment and confusion.
But for me, it comes down to this:
I love seeing talented people take creative risks. I love it when they take risks with tiny little zero-budget productions in their basement and I love it when they take risks with millions of dollars from a major corporation.
By all accounts, the Starcruiser represented Disney Imagineers taking a massive, experimental swing.
If the narrative is, "This is a bad product," then the lesson that Disney and other corporations will take away is, "Force creatives to play it safe."
If the narrative is, "The Imagineers made something amazing and the marketing department mis-sold it," then the lesson is, "Force marketing to sell what the creative people actually made."
Like I said, I never went on the Star Cruiser myself, so I don't know which narrative is true. But as somebody who wants more creative stuff in the world, I want the second one to be true. It's puzzling to me that so many people are enthusiastically embracing the other narrative, especially when it runs counter to the experience of most people who did experience the attraction.
posted by yankeefog at 6:14 AM on June 17 [2 favorites]
I’d say hunting around for reasons a persons account of a famously failed, famously over-expensive product must be lying about it being expensive or a failure is a bit of a weirdos game TBH.
posted by Artw at 3:40 PM on June 18 [5 favorites]
posted by Artw at 3:40 PM on June 18 [5 favorites]
« Older Long after we are gone, our data will be what... | That's Hommy, not Tommy Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
posted by HearHere at 4:47 AM on May 19