You know what they say about conservatives and empathy
May 19, 2024 5:18 PM Subscribe
This article made me angry reading it. It is very hard for me to read about people grappling with a hateful religious framework.
posted by Nelson at 5:45 PM on May 19 [8 favorites]
posted by Nelson at 5:45 PM on May 19 [8 favorites]
It is very hard for me to read about people grappling with a hateful religious framework.
I resolved all my grappling back in 1990 when I came out. I then spent about 10 years grappling with my hatred of the hateful religious framework, which truly only ate my soul up. It was only once I realized that religious frameworks of this sort were basically made-up bullshit that I finally truly resolved everything for myself.
My therapist doesn't know quite how to handle me.
posted by hippybear at 5:49 PM on May 19 [35 favorites]
I resolved all my grappling back in 1990 when I came out. I then spent about 10 years grappling with my hatred of the hateful religious framework, which truly only ate my soul up. It was only once I realized that religious frameworks of this sort were basically made-up bullshit that I finally truly resolved everything for myself.
My therapist doesn't know quite how to handle me.
posted by hippybear at 5:49 PM on May 19 [35 favorites]
That better come with some repair for the damage they've done and the damage still being done.
posted by kokaku at 6:02 PM on May 19 [10 favorites]
posted by kokaku at 6:02 PM on May 19 [10 favorites]
Color me skeptical. The defining characteristic of conservative Christian starts at phobic, and ramps up to hateful with ease, especially with the state of modern discourse that surrounds religion and rewards extremism. I have no doubt some are reevaluating their stance on gender and sexuality. Bravo for their willingness to use reason and empathy. But Christianity has been obsessed with what goes on between everyone else's legs since pretty much the beginning. There's little tolerance for gray area. When it comes to gender and sex among self professed Christians, I tend to think broader latitude tends to be more practical, "let's not scare away too many normies", than theological/ecclesiastical.
posted by 2N2222 at 6:23 PM on May 19 [14 favorites]
posted by 2N2222 at 6:23 PM on May 19 [14 favorites]
Bless their hearts…
posted by Windopaene at 7:11 PM on May 19 [10 favorites]
posted by Windopaene at 7:11 PM on May 19 [10 favorites]
I guess they feel, now that they’ve passed the torch on safely to the next generations, they can wash their hands, show a little contrition, and squeak into heaven.
I sure hope it doesn’t work that way.
posted by Ice Cream Socialist at 8:29 PM on May 19 [10 favorites]
I sure hope it doesn’t work that way.
posted by Ice Cream Socialist at 8:29 PM on May 19 [10 favorites]
Are there enough cookies in the world to congratulate these people for showing a tiny bit of basic human decency towards their own children?
posted by signal at 8:30 PM on May 19 [8 favorites]
posted by signal at 8:30 PM on May 19 [8 favorites]
I really hate the "Gender Wars" framing, as though there were a conflict between two sides over some resource. That's not what it is. It's a reactionary effort from one party to wipe out the human rights of another. Despite the pose of perpetually being under attack, these Christians chose to go after trans rights, it's not like affirming trans rights hurt them directly and it is certainly not the case that trans folks are eliminating fundy Christians -- yes I know that's not how they perceive it but the NYT doesn't have to implicitly endorse their outlook.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 9:52 PM on May 19 [56 favorites]
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 9:52 PM on May 19 [56 favorites]
Are there enough cookies in the world to congratulate these people for showing a tiny bit of basic human decency towards their own children?
Any little bit helps, I suppose. Maybe a slow drip of humanity can lead to more.
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:05 PM on May 19 [3 favorites]
Any little bit helps, I suppose. Maybe a slow drip of humanity can lead to more.
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:05 PM on May 19 [3 favorites]
needs to be more than a slow drip against the much larger flood
posted by kokaku at 10:47 PM on May 19 [2 favorites]
posted by kokaku at 10:47 PM on May 19 [2 favorites]
Any little bit helps, I suppose.While I don't like to be dismissive of anyone making an effort to be better, it is more complicated than "any little bit helps". If the tolerant few can be used as protective camouflage for their intolerant brethren, if they practice tolerance privately with their loved ones but support the institutions and politicians imposing intolerant policies publicly, etc, etc - then are they actually helping?
posted by Nerd of the North at 12:03 AM on May 20 [9 favorites]
I do think there's some benefit in public sharing of these kinds of change-of-heart testimonials, even if the change of heart doesn't go nearly as far as most of the users of this website would like; humans are social and story-driven creatures, and personal accounts from people they can identify with provide a sort of road map for other conservative Christians of what the journey from intolerance to acceptance can look like.
OTOH fuck the NYT for their recent both-sides "gender wars" framing of trans rights, e.g., their recent interview with UK pediatrician Hillary Cass, in which she advocates against puberty blockers for minors and endorses the social contagion hypothesis with basically no push-back from the interviewer.
posted by nanny's striped stocking at 12:42 AM on May 20 [24 favorites]
OTOH fuck the NYT for their recent both-sides "gender wars" framing of trans rights, e.g., their recent interview with UK pediatrician Hillary Cass, in which she advocates against puberty blockers for minors and endorses the social contagion hypothesis with basically no push-back from the interviewer.
posted by nanny's striped stocking at 12:42 AM on May 20 [24 favorites]
The NYT has yet to put out a single piece that shows they have reversed course on their rampant transphobia, this one included. Sure, it might read as accepting, but the framework is in bad faith, pun intended. There is an assumed morality in religion, for one, as well as legitimizing the voices of conservative “experts” with very minimal pushback. It even ends on the note that the religious parents are concerned about both of their adult children not being Christian, so the reader leaves with a familiar thing to be scared about.
Humans need stories to enact social change, it’s true, and we need vast wells of empathy to gain acceptance. But the NYT needs to stop clinging to relevancy by banging the trans storytime gong over and over again. I don’t trust anyone there to do it right, or well, or consistently.
posted by Mizu at 1:47 AM on May 20 [19 favorites]
Humans need stories to enact social change, it’s true, and we need vast wells of empathy to gain acceptance. But the NYT needs to stop clinging to relevancy by banging the trans storytime gong over and over again. I don’t trust anyone there to do it right, or well, or consistently.
posted by Mizu at 1:47 AM on May 20 [19 favorites]
This falls into the category of the piece that appears positive (whether it is or isn't) and provides cover to the NYT for the anti-trans articles (like the Cass interview)... see! balance!
Pretty sure their ratio of positive to negative is something like 1 in 20. Also I've noticed they only ever turn on comments for the negative pieces.
posted by kokaku at 5:24 AM on May 20 [5 favorites]
Pretty sure their ratio of positive to negative is something like 1 in 20. Also I've noticed they only ever turn on comments for the negative pieces.
posted by kokaku at 5:24 AM on May 20 [5 favorites]
Ms. Hasson, who is Catholic, described recent cultural shifts around gender as upending fundamental assumptions about the universe: “Can you trust your senses? When you see something, can you name it, does it have an objective reality? Or is there no truth?”
Or....you could accept that stupid thing often said and also said in this article, "God doesn't make mistakes" and accept that your child was born trans, you fucks
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:54 AM on May 20 [23 favorites]
Or....you could accept that stupid thing often said and also said in this article, "God doesn't make mistakes" and accept that your child was born trans, you fucks
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:54 AM on May 20 [23 favorites]
I found this interesting:
"The questions Dr. Sadusky said she hears from parents with transgender children in her private practice are immediate and personal: Does this mean I won’t have grandchildren? (“That’s the No. 1 thing they’re worried about.”) If they don’t immediately affirm the child’s identity, they worry their child will be told the parents are irredeemable bigots, cut off the relationship, or even that the child will take their own life."
posted by Jane the Brown at 6:15 AM on May 20 [3 favorites]
"The questions Dr. Sadusky said she hears from parents with transgender children in her private practice are immediate and personal: Does this mean I won’t have grandchildren? (“That’s the No. 1 thing they’re worried about.”) If they don’t immediately affirm the child’s identity, they worry their child will be told the parents are irredeemable bigots, cut off the relationship, or even that the child will take their own life."
posted by Jane the Brown at 6:15 AM on May 20 [3 favorites]
1. so much of conservative christianity has crossed the moral event horizon with staggering examples of rank bigotry, hypocrisy, lies, and hate that there is absolutely no fucking way i would *ever* trust one on "truth" or "love". may each and every one of them who contributed to the hate against others and refuse to take accountability or make amends for having done so never see the light of their god, especially after they forced so many people away from it.
2. the new york times is institutionally transphobic, and this article's framing is just as obnoxious because it's written with the same sort of false "balance" that stealths right past oblivious cis liberals and centrists. even the "ally" sadusky they highlight "has concerns" about "irreversible" treatments. is it better than most? yes. but the bar with the nytimes has been set so low that a legless ant in the ninth circle of hell would have trouble getting over it.
posted by i used to be someone else at 7:52 AM on May 20 [10 favorites]
2. the new york times is institutionally transphobic, and this article's framing is just as obnoxious because it's written with the same sort of false "balance" that stealths right past oblivious cis liberals and centrists. even the "ally" sadusky they highlight "has concerns" about "irreversible" treatments. is it better than most? yes. but the bar with the nytimes has been set so low that a legless ant in the ninth circle of hell would have trouble getting over it.
posted by i used to be someone else at 7:52 AM on May 20 [10 favorites]
"The questions Dr. Sadusky said she hears from parents with transgender children in her private practice are immediate and personal: Does this mean I won’t have grandchildren? (“That’s the No. 1 thing they’re worried about.”) If they don’t immediately affirm the child’s identity, they worry their child will be told the parents are irredeemable bigots, cut off the relationship, or even that the child will take their own life."
i mean, i guess? when a vast amount of anti-trans rhetoric talks about how trans care for youth leads to infertility and mutilation, why wouldn't "good", "well-meaning" people who believe the liars leading their churches, writing their media, and writing for the nytimes who focus on that aspect think that?
when those same bigots, who get far more airtime, coverage, and publication while "being cancelled" call trans identity an "ideological cult" day in and day out, why wouldn't those "good", "well-meaning" people who have consistently trusted those hateful noisemakers think that?
posted by i used to be someone else at 7:56 AM on May 20
i mean, i guess? when a vast amount of anti-trans rhetoric talks about how trans care for youth leads to infertility and mutilation, why wouldn't "good", "well-meaning" people who believe the liars leading their churches, writing their media, and writing for the nytimes who focus on that aspect think that?
when those same bigots, who get far more airtime, coverage, and publication while "being cancelled" call trans identity an "ideological cult" day in and day out, why wouldn't those "good", "well-meaning" people who have consistently trusted those hateful noisemakers think that?
posted by i used to be someone else at 7:56 AM on May 20
Ms. Hasson, who is Catholic, described recent cultural shifts around gender as upending fundamental assumptions about the universe: “Can you trust your senses? When you see something, can you name it, does it have an objective reality? Or is there no truth?”
It is fascinating to me that people make it all the way to adulthood and become parents without having considered these kinds of basic philosophical questions? I don't mean that in a condescending way, but I grew up in a pretty backwater, socially conservative area and I still remember kids at my Catholic elementary and middle school asking each other questions like "does the color red look the same to everyone?" and "is today really real now, if tomorrow it will only be a memory?" Even if you want to put religion into the mix, I remember reading stories of saints having divine experiences where they saw creation through the eyes of God instead of their own limited flesh and wept at their own insignificance.
posted by nanny's striped stocking at 9:19 AM on May 20 [5 favorites]
It is fascinating to me that people make it all the way to adulthood and become parents without having considered these kinds of basic philosophical questions? I don't mean that in a condescending way, but I grew up in a pretty backwater, socially conservative area and I still remember kids at my Catholic elementary and middle school asking each other questions like "does the color red look the same to everyone?" and "is today really real now, if tomorrow it will only be a memory?" Even if you want to put religion into the mix, I remember reading stories of saints having divine experiences where they saw creation through the eyes of God instead of their own limited flesh and wept at their own insignificance.
posted by nanny's striped stocking at 9:19 AM on May 20 [5 favorites]
Some Conservative Christians Are Stepping Away From the Gender Wars. Here's Why That's Bad News for Joe Biden.
posted by credulous at 9:37 AM on May 20 [7 favorites]
posted by credulous at 9:37 AM on May 20 [7 favorites]
Can't buy it. Sounds good on paper, but "Those People" are still sadly mistaking and wrong in their actions. Christians believe their God tells them they are living the only right and true way, and they're so, so magnanimous and noble in their forgiving. All of which leads to othering, which leads to secret contempt, which leads to ostracizing, which leads to...more hatred. I've watched those tolerant Christians in action. Talk to them long enough, and eventually their true conflicted feelings will emerge. There are a few Christians who try to be Christ-like. But it's hard not to secretly feel yourself above others when you know you were chosen by God and YOU know and were personally told what the right is way to live. Therefore, you are personally righteous and can afford to be a bit smug about having a place in heaven.
Adult children of 'accepting' Christians have commented how tiring it all is. Their parents say how love and accept them--and they know their parents do love them--but their parents still pray daily that 'God will enter their hearts' and they'll see the "true rightness of God's plan for His children"--which probably won't happen with those other sadly mistaken sinners--oh, well. They say it's exhausting and hurtful and growing up sucked.
I'll believe it when every "good, forgiving, Christians" proudly wear the t-shirt, vociferously attend the parades and protests, demand change and vote for the legislation, loudly and repeatedly speak out at worship, and fire and ostracize the -phobic and hateful priests, preachers, and administrators in their churches.
...Mrs. McDonald recalled. “God told me, ‘No, you get to do both.’” Her morality is externally dictated, not intrinsic to who she is. Guess God was kind of wishy-washy on it. What happens when He changes His mind again?
I'm not much impressed at Christianity and the majority of other faiths. I wish humanity would outgrow them and move on.
posted by BlueHorse at 9:54 AM on May 20 [2 favorites]
Adult children of 'accepting' Christians have commented how tiring it all is. Their parents say how love and accept them--and they know their parents do love them--but their parents still pray daily that 'God will enter their hearts' and they'll see the "true rightness of God's plan for His children"--which probably won't happen with those other sadly mistaken sinners--oh, well. They say it's exhausting and hurtful and growing up sucked.
I'll believe it when every "good, forgiving, Christians" proudly wear the t-shirt, vociferously attend the parades and protests, demand change and vote for the legislation, loudly and repeatedly speak out at worship, and fire and ostracize the -phobic and hateful priests, preachers, and administrators in their churches.
...Mrs. McDonald recalled. “God told me, ‘No, you get to do both.’” Her morality is externally dictated, not intrinsic to who she is. Guess God was kind of wishy-washy on it. What happens when He changes His mind again?
I'm not much impressed at Christianity and the majority of other faiths. I wish humanity would outgrow them and move on.
posted by BlueHorse at 9:54 AM on May 20 [2 favorites]
The NYT needs to die....
posted by WatTylerJr at 10:32 AM on May 20 [2 favorites]
posted by WatTylerJr at 10:32 AM on May 20 [2 favorites]
I had a phone call recently with another (mainline, protestant) member of the clergy. One of their children had come out as non-binary, they were asking to use they/them pronouns, etc.
This was the child of an affirming pastor. We've both read the books. We've both shepherded multiple churches through the O&A process. I do not doubt my colleagues commitment to affirming theology.
But they were still in pain. The pastor really just wanted to shout into the void. I was happy to be a void. It is entirely possible to "know" a thing, to be aware of the truth of a thing, and still have contradictory feelings. (I know that my children will some day grow up and leave and I will be alone in a way that is different. I know that this is not a bad thing - and I know that I will have heartbreak.)
My colleague wanted to shout all of the things that shouldn't be shouted. They wanted to vent - in a way that (I've found) is often permitted in leftist spaces but is absolutely forbidden in liberal spaces. I game them space to shout all of things.
"What if it's just a phase? What if this is just some bullshit they made up so they can make friends at school? Is this what rebellion looks like in families with affirming faith? We raised this kid in a sex-positive household... are they trying to get a reaction? Testing boundaries? What if this is all bullshit? I want my kid back. I'm terrified they're going to get killed by some skin-head. Identity is a game they're playing - they haven't accomplished anything - they want differentiation..." All of the hateful, mean comments we'd both heard a dozen times in the privacy of our offices. They rise in the heart, unbidden. We were both bullied as young men. Labeled as queer, weak, effeminate men - even though we were straight. That does a number on young men in America and it goes unaddressed. I suspect young men who are straight but are bullied for being queer often have an important perspective that is hard to describe.
I let them pour it all out into the ether. And we went over the things we know are true. The child wants the love and support of the parent. The child may go in a thousand directions, the child may negotiate and renegotiate their gender or sexuality or anything else... and when we dismiss them and diminish them they will know only one thing: we didn't support them. They can't trust us. And we don't deserve their trust.
If we fail them, they'll remember. "The ax forgets, the tree remembers."
I have another parent, a former member of the clergy, who left their career when one of their kids came out as trans. "I had to choose between my child and my ministry. It was an easy choice." They worship at my church.
It is incredibly tempting to over-simplify the experiences of parents with kids who don't conform to gender norms. And "Christianity" in America is a strange thing... it is a poorly-fitted religion for an empire like ours. However, the lived experience of parishioners, the wretched experience of parents who are conned into abandoning their children by sick and toxic clergy, will not survive the refining fire. The Christian source texts do not support the regressive views of the contemporary evangelical church in America. The Gospels, especially, are ill-suited to serve as proof-texts for the heteronormative culture of American nuclear family-style patriarchy.
May it all be burned to ash and scattered like chaff. The Jesus movement is liberation - from everything that oppresses us - or it is nothing.
posted by Baby_Balrog at 10:46 AM on May 20 [24 favorites]
This was the child of an affirming pastor. We've both read the books. We've both shepherded multiple churches through the O&A process. I do not doubt my colleagues commitment to affirming theology.
But they were still in pain. The pastor really just wanted to shout into the void. I was happy to be a void. It is entirely possible to "know" a thing, to be aware of the truth of a thing, and still have contradictory feelings. (I know that my children will some day grow up and leave and I will be alone in a way that is different. I know that this is not a bad thing - and I know that I will have heartbreak.)
My colleague wanted to shout all of the things that shouldn't be shouted. They wanted to vent - in a way that (I've found) is often permitted in leftist spaces but is absolutely forbidden in liberal spaces. I game them space to shout all of things.
"What if it's just a phase? What if this is just some bullshit they made up so they can make friends at school? Is this what rebellion looks like in families with affirming faith? We raised this kid in a sex-positive household... are they trying to get a reaction? Testing boundaries? What if this is all bullshit? I want my kid back. I'm terrified they're going to get killed by some skin-head. Identity is a game they're playing - they haven't accomplished anything - they want differentiation..." All of the hateful, mean comments we'd both heard a dozen times in the privacy of our offices. They rise in the heart, unbidden. We were both bullied as young men. Labeled as queer, weak, effeminate men - even though we were straight. That does a number on young men in America and it goes unaddressed. I suspect young men who are straight but are bullied for being queer often have an important perspective that is hard to describe.
I let them pour it all out into the ether. And we went over the things we know are true. The child wants the love and support of the parent. The child may go in a thousand directions, the child may negotiate and renegotiate their gender or sexuality or anything else... and when we dismiss them and diminish them they will know only one thing: we didn't support them. They can't trust us. And we don't deserve their trust.
If we fail them, they'll remember. "The ax forgets, the tree remembers."
I have another parent, a former member of the clergy, who left their career when one of their kids came out as trans. "I had to choose between my child and my ministry. It was an easy choice." They worship at my church.
It is incredibly tempting to over-simplify the experiences of parents with kids who don't conform to gender norms. And "Christianity" in America is a strange thing... it is a poorly-fitted religion for an empire like ours. However, the lived experience of parishioners, the wretched experience of parents who are conned into abandoning their children by sick and toxic clergy, will not survive the refining fire. The Christian source texts do not support the regressive views of the contemporary evangelical church in America. The Gospels, especially, are ill-suited to serve as proof-texts for the heteronormative culture of American nuclear family-style patriarchy.
May it all be burned to ash and scattered like chaff. The Jesus movement is liberation - from everything that oppresses us - or it is nothing.
posted by Baby_Balrog at 10:46 AM on May 20 [24 favorites]
Also, this article is filled with nonsense.
"The theological foundation of Christian opposition to the concept of transgender identities announces itself in the first chapter of Genesis."
Oh, bullshit. Of the highest order.
"Though they are debated by scholars and ordinary Christians, these texts have profoundly shaped the family structures, career paths and spiritual lives of billions of people around the world."
No they haven't. When they've been useful, they've been yoked into supporting normative cultural structures. But the text isn't the parent of the culture.
Also the "Jesus vs. Paul" stuff that gets mobilized by critics on the left is profoundly unhelpful. Paul's work has historically provided just as much - and, in some cases, more - fuel for revolutionary liberation than the Gospels, themselves. Paul is not the anti-Jesus and he also contains multitudes.
posted by Baby_Balrog at 10:54 AM on May 20 [8 favorites]
"The theological foundation of Christian opposition to the concept of transgender identities announces itself in the first chapter of Genesis."
Oh, bullshit. Of the highest order.
"Though they are debated by scholars and ordinary Christians, these texts have profoundly shaped the family structures, career paths and spiritual lives of billions of people around the world."
No they haven't. When they've been useful, they've been yoked into supporting normative cultural structures. But the text isn't the parent of the culture.
Also the "Jesus vs. Paul" stuff that gets mobilized by critics on the left is profoundly unhelpful. Paul's work has historically provided just as much - and, in some cases, more - fuel for revolutionary liberation than the Gospels, themselves. Paul is not the anti-Jesus and he also contains multitudes.
posted by Baby_Balrog at 10:54 AM on May 20 [8 favorites]
"The theological foundation of Christian opposition to the concept of transgender identities announces itself in the first chapter of Genesis."
Oh, bullshit. Of the highest order.
The text is pretty clear that God made humans male and female, therefore there's no such thing as a person who isn't clearly one or the other in a strict binary arrangement, just like like God making day and night means there's no such thing as dawn or twilight, and God separating land and water means there's no such thing as a swamp or a bog, and God making land animals and sea animals means there's no such thing as an amphibian. There's clearly no responsible way to read this ancient text except as a theological establishment of unambiguous dichotomies.
/sarcasm, of course
posted by Pater Aletheias at 12:02 PM on May 20 [22 favorites]
Oh, bullshit. Of the highest order.
The text is pretty clear that God made humans male and female, therefore there's no such thing as a person who isn't clearly one or the other in a strict binary arrangement, just like like God making day and night means there's no such thing as dawn or twilight, and God separating land and water means there's no such thing as a swamp or a bog, and God making land animals and sea animals means there's no such thing as an amphibian. There's clearly no responsible way to read this ancient text except as a theological establishment of unambiguous dichotomies.
/sarcasm, of course
posted by Pater Aletheias at 12:02 PM on May 20 [22 favorites]
Then a pastor at the church encouraged them to kick their daughter out of their home.
“This must be biblical advice,” she recalled thinking. “This must be what we’re supposed to do.”
...
“I felt I needed to choose: Choose God or choose my son,” Mrs. McDonald recalled.
Pro tip: if your 'faith' compels you to commit heinous, sociopathic acts like this, to the point of being willing to harm your own child in order to follow some abstract sense of 'morality', maybe you need to renounce this faith instead of trying to accomodate it?
posted by signal at 12:14 PM on May 20 [6 favorites]
“This must be biblical advice,” she recalled thinking. “This must be what we’re supposed to do.”
...
“I felt I needed to choose: Choose God or choose my son,” Mrs. McDonald recalled.
Pro tip: if your 'faith' compels you to commit heinous, sociopathic acts like this, to the point of being willing to harm your own child in order to follow some abstract sense of 'morality', maybe you need to renounce this faith instead of trying to accomodate it?
posted by signal at 12:14 PM on May 20 [6 favorites]
Pro tip: if your 'faith' compels you to commit heinous, sociopathic acts like this, to the point of being willing to harm your own child in order to follow some abstract sense of 'morality', maybe you need to renounce this faith instead of trying to accomodate it?
well, they are following an abrahamic faith.
that particular abraham was commanded by his god to sacrifice his son isaac. and he basically got to the altar and had bound and all but killed his son before his god stopped him.
and this is presented as a testament to abraham's faith, and a good thing.
posted by i used to be someone else at 12:27 PM on May 20 [6 favorites]
well, they are following an abrahamic faith.
that particular abraham was commanded by his god to sacrifice his son isaac. and he basically got to the altar and had bound and all but killed his son before his god stopped him.
and this is presented as a testament to abraham's faith, and a good thing.
posted by i used to be someone else at 12:27 PM on May 20 [6 favorites]
We created such a massively toxic environment for those that are different, we can't imagine anybody sane wanting to live like that!
posted by Jacen at 4:02 PM on May 20 [1 favorite]
posted by Jacen at 4:02 PM on May 20 [1 favorite]
i used to be someone else: that particular abraham was commanded by his god to sacrifice his son isaac. and he basically got to the altar and had bound and all but killed his son before his god stopped him.
Precisely. I will never understand how anybody who isn't a sociopath can read or be told that story and not say: "Nope, sorry, not for me."
posted by signal at 5:49 PM on May 21 [1 favorite]
Precisely. I will never understand how anybody who isn't a sociopath can read or be told that story and not say: "Nope, sorry, not for me."
posted by signal at 5:49 PM on May 21 [1 favorite]
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