It Is Known
May 19, 2024 5:59 PM Subscribe
What Game of Thrones means to today’s television-makers, 5 years after the finale - includes writers from Shogun, Wheel of Time, BSG (and DS9) and more.
None of these cowards in this article are willing to address how fundamentally the excremental last season undermined the whole show, a season so bad that a show that was on everyone's lips for a decade was basically memoryholed by even the most fervent of fans.
Ron Moore should have at least touched on it, given that he basically did close to the same thing with Battlestar Galactica. Years of effort, with some truly high highs, and then just utterly failed to stick the landing.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:00 PM on May 19 [37 favorites]
Ron Moore should have at least touched on it, given that he basically did close to the same thing with Battlestar Galactica. Years of effort, with some truly high highs, and then just utterly failed to stick the landing.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:00 PM on May 19 [37 favorites]
It's encouraging to me that everyone in these interviews is referencing the earlier seasons, mostly S1, w/ some S3 (Red Wedding) and S4 (The Mountain and the Viper), and at most S5 (Hardhome, which didn't really work for me in the way it seems to have for a lot of other people). To me this makes perfect sense, since it was obvious even at the time that things were starting to go off the rails in S4, when B&W started reaching the limits of what GRRM had written and began inserting their own innate hackdom into the show's story, and had come mostly unglued by the end of S5 when they were totally off-book. People love to criticize the last season, and rightly so, but really the last 3 - 3.5 seasons were, if not complete shit, at the very least reduced to the banal triteness that was the inevitable result of mediocrities like B&W not being kept in line by an actual storyteller.
posted by Pedantzilla at 7:02 PM on May 19 [10 favorites]
posted by Pedantzilla at 7:02 PM on May 19 [10 favorites]
Believe me: as someone who runs a fandom venue, the series was definitely not "basically memoryholed by even the most fervent of fans."
Rather, they're still vocally angry five years later and a good number of fans sort everything related to the show by how nice a character was to Daenerys. Any actor or crew member who has ever said anything neutral to positive about the last season, basically anything that isn't criticism or a vocal rejection, is the target of a lot of hate. (This means that these people tend to categorically despise Kit Harington in particular, as a person, and to a lesser extent, Sophie Turner, Peter Dinklage, etc.)
Anyway, off to RTFA.
posted by verbminx at 7:28 PM on May 19
Rather, they're still vocally angry five years later and a good number of fans sort everything related to the show by how nice a character was to Daenerys. Any actor or crew member who has ever said anything neutral to positive about the last season, basically anything that isn't criticism or a vocal rejection, is the target of a lot of hate. (This means that these people tend to categorically despise Kit Harington in particular, as a person, and to a lesser extent, Sophie Turner, Peter Dinklage, etc.)
Anyway, off to RTFA.
posted by verbminx at 7:28 PM on May 19
This means that these people tend to categorically despise Kit Harington in particular, as a person, and to a lesser extent, Sophie Turner, Peter Dinklage, etc
This is a real pity, because it seems to me that everyone involved in the show's final season, from the gaffers to the actors, did their absolute level best except Benioff and Weiss.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:41 PM on May 19 [30 favorites]
This is a real pity, because it seems to me that everyone involved in the show's final season, from the gaffers to the actors, did their absolute level best except Benioff and Weiss.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:41 PM on May 19 [30 favorites]
They were people being paid to do a job. They had zero control over what was going on. Is there an expectation that if you're getting a massive paycheck for a thing you will stop doing the thing because you think it isn't good enough?
Generally at the level of a project being made like this, you have zero idea what the final assembled project is going to end up being like. This isn't a Checkov play on a stage, it's a gigantic multi-faceted thing with a dozen different departments feeding into the final product. There is no way to know what you're making is shit until you see the final assembly. By which point it is too late. But also, by which point you don't care because you, as an actor/designer/crew member YOU'VE ALREADY BEEN PAID.
The company that makes this series doesn't pay residuals. Or if they do, it's nothing like the residuals that would have been paid out to the people who made Fantasy Island or whatever. The whole pay package has changed.
So you got your paycheck, and you honestly don't give a fuck how well the series does because you have money in the bank. All you can do is hope that the show's diminished reputation doesn't drag you down with it. And with a clever agent, you can get around that.
posted by hippybear at 7:49 PM on May 19 [4 favorites]
Generally at the level of a project being made like this, you have zero idea what the final assembled project is going to end up being like. This isn't a Checkov play on a stage, it's a gigantic multi-faceted thing with a dozen different departments feeding into the final product. There is no way to know what you're making is shit until you see the final assembly. By which point it is too late. But also, by which point you don't care because you, as an actor/designer/crew member YOU'VE ALREADY BEEN PAID.
The company that makes this series doesn't pay residuals. Or if they do, it's nothing like the residuals that would have been paid out to the people who made Fantasy Island or whatever. The whole pay package has changed.
So you got your paycheck, and you honestly don't give a fuck how well the series does because you have money in the bank. All you can do is hope that the show's diminished reputation doesn't drag you down with it. And with a clever agent, you can get around that.
posted by hippybear at 7:49 PM on May 19 [4 favorites]
If you’re looking at how Game of Thrones changed television the first three seasons are what you are looking at - people were looking at them while they were running and trying to emulate them, for good or ill. You don’t really need to look at the seasons where things tapered off and were a bit disappointing because everyone is fully capable of that by themselves.
posted by Artw at 7:54 PM on May 19 [7 favorites]
posted by Artw at 7:54 PM on May 19 [7 favorites]
Honestly, I think it is seasons 4 and 5 that are most influential... the seasons where the background fucking during expository scenes had backed off, and where characters were mostly doing character things to drive the plot forward. Those are the most propulsive of the seasons, right up until they catch up with the books. I think that's season 5.5, might be seasons 6.5. But man, that moment is SO marked in how much the quality of the plotting falls off. Even within that episode where it disappears halfway.
It was SO GOOD with sporadic sessions of titties and fucking in the background for a few years and they ditched that and it was SO OVERWHELMINGLY GOOD for maybe 2 seasons total, not sure those seasons are marked by being "seasons" but maybe more 20 episodes across a couple of seasons...
And then it all went to shit.
It's like popular culture decided to teach us all the sunk cost fallacy at once as a global culture.
I'd like to see some studies done on how people feel about following long prestige [or not] television series in the age post Game Of Thrones. I could see a potential cultural interest in returning to more episodic series after that.
posted by hippybear at 8:09 PM on May 19 [9 favorites]
It was SO GOOD with sporadic sessions of titties and fucking in the background for a few years and they ditched that and it was SO OVERWHELMINGLY GOOD for maybe 2 seasons total, not sure those seasons are marked by being "seasons" but maybe more 20 episodes across a couple of seasons...
And then it all went to shit.
It's like popular culture decided to teach us all the sunk cost fallacy at once as a global culture.
I'd like to see some studies done on how people feel about following long prestige [or not] television series in the age post Game Of Thrones. I could see a potential cultural interest in returning to more episodic series after that.
posted by hippybear at 8:09 PM on May 19 [9 favorites]
It becoming increasingly hard for anything to actually run beyond 3 seasons may also be a limiting factor there.
posted by Artw at 8:11 PM on May 19 [5 favorites]
posted by Artw at 8:11 PM on May 19 [5 favorites]
I guess I am curious... The Three Body Problem, by the same creators... does it have scenes of people fucking the background while others give exposition on the plot?
posted by hippybear at 8:13 PM on May 19 [3 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 8:13 PM on May 19 [3 favorites]
I don’t remember any background fucking in 3BP but given Netflix just announced they’re wrapping it up with season 2…
posted by billsaysthis at 8:22 PM on May 19 [1 favorite]
posted by billsaysthis at 8:22 PM on May 19 [1 favorite]
I don’t remember any background fucking in 3BP but given Netflix just announced they’re wrapping it up with season 2…
Given that the timeline of the 3 books extends literally to the end of the universe, that is not encouraging.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 8:24 PM on May 19 [6 favorites]
Given that the timeline of the 3 books extends literally to the end of the universe, that is not encouraging.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 8:24 PM on May 19 [6 favorites]
The background fucking was so prominent for the first 3 seasons they stopped doing it and it became a stronger show for it. And then the books ended and they fucked it up from there.
So... we had 3 Porny seasons, 2 amazing seasons, and then 2 increasingly fucked up seasons and, well, yeah.
The entire reason for the background fucking was to be a fantasy world version of Skinemax. And maybe they could have done that for Cinemax at a cheaper budget while still making Game Of Thrones without that.
I'd be curious to know how much of the porn aspect of the early GoT seasons drove new subscribers to HBO. Has anyone done any analysis on that, vs the later less fuck-filled seasons?
Part of it is being a queer man in a heteronormative society, but another part of it is just being fucking tired of being seen as the lower common denominator in society. Oh, a woman in a bikini? That's a yawn for me but all you straight men... are you also wiling to yawn at it?
I don't know what your ability is to ignore/circumvent your inputs might be. But if you're tired of this marketing, you need to fight against it by not responding to it. Whatever response it might be, just.... don't.
If we can unprogram the algorithm from us responding to sex... we might be free.
I challenge you. I dare you! Don't give in to sexually-tempting anything online.
It will not be easy. It will take practice. But together we can untuck the internet.
posted by hippybear at 8:39 PM on May 19 [4 favorites]
So... we had 3 Porny seasons, 2 amazing seasons, and then 2 increasingly fucked up seasons and, well, yeah.
The entire reason for the background fucking was to be a fantasy world version of Skinemax. And maybe they could have done that for Cinemax at a cheaper budget while still making Game Of Thrones without that.
I'd be curious to know how much of the porn aspect of the early GoT seasons drove new subscribers to HBO. Has anyone done any analysis on that, vs the later less fuck-filled seasons?
Part of it is being a queer man in a heteronormative society, but another part of it is just being fucking tired of being seen as the lower common denominator in society. Oh, a woman in a bikini? That's a yawn for me but all you straight men... are you also wiling to yawn at it?
I don't know what your ability is to ignore/circumvent your inputs might be. But if you're tired of this marketing, you need to fight against it by not responding to it. Whatever response it might be, just.... don't.
If we can unprogram the algorithm from us responding to sex... we might be free.
I challenge you. I dare you! Don't give in to sexually-tempting anything online.
It will not be easy. It will take practice. But together we can untuck the internet.
posted by hippybear at 8:39 PM on May 19 [4 favorites]
Oh shit, I forgot, I was typing a Metafilter comment and ended up typing a manifesto.
posted by hippybear at 8:40 PM on May 19 [16 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 8:40 PM on May 19 [16 favorites]
Doing 95% of an awesome television series is relatively easy. It's the last 5% that makes the difference. In fact, it's only the last 5% that matters at all.
GOT always sucked. It's just that once you get to the end of the runway, you have to (to ironically mix metaphors) stick the landing. Completely fucking up and shitting the bed once you have to tie everything up and deliver (like GOT, like everything Lindelof has ever touched, like a lot shows) is the natural progression. Any asshole can swan dive off a building and land teeth first in the parking lot.
posted by Back At It Again At Krispy Kreme at 8:46 PM on May 19 [5 favorites]
GOT always sucked. It's just that once you get to the end of the runway, you have to (to ironically mix metaphors) stick the landing. Completely fucking up and shitting the bed once you have to tie everything up and deliver (like GOT, like everything Lindelof has ever touched, like a lot shows) is the natural progression. Any asshole can swan dive off a building and land teeth first in the parking lot.
posted by Back At It Again At Krispy Kreme at 8:46 PM on May 19 [5 favorites]
I plan on rewatching the series in the 2030's, but this time I'm going to watch only the first 5 seasons and imagine the ending for myself.
posted by fairmettle at 8:49 PM on May 19
posted by fairmettle at 8:49 PM on May 19
In fact, it's only the last 5% that matters at all.
Like, no?
MASH was great but stumbled a lot, and the ending wasn't the last 5%, it was just the last episode.
Cheers didn't rely on the last 5% of its episodes many of which weren't great. Just the final one.
Like, it's only in this era of the completely serialized television series that this is a problem.
There was an era when television series had serialization loose enough that they didn't have a dot to dot to dot kind of build across the season, instead was more an amalgamation of events in a characters life that moved them toward a certain realization or epiphany.
That is NOT how Game Of Thrones worked. That is how series like, say, Frasier worked. [Many others too.]
GoT, up until its final seasons, had a defined plot, and the people who were making it were sort of geniuses at drawing out the important character and plot threads and seeing how they should move across the multiple seasons...
...right up until the books stopped. And at that point, the limits of their ability to invent were laid bare to horrible consequence.
posted by hippybear at 8:59 PM on May 19 [7 favorites]
Like, no?
MASH was great but stumbled a lot, and the ending wasn't the last 5%, it was just the last episode.
Cheers didn't rely on the last 5% of its episodes many of which weren't great. Just the final one.
Like, it's only in this era of the completely serialized television series that this is a problem.
There was an era when television series had serialization loose enough that they didn't have a dot to dot to dot kind of build across the season, instead was more an amalgamation of events in a characters life that moved them toward a certain realization or epiphany.
That is NOT how Game Of Thrones worked. That is how series like, say, Frasier worked. [Many others too.]
GoT, up until its final seasons, had a defined plot, and the people who were making it were sort of geniuses at drawing out the important character and plot threads and seeing how they should move across the multiple seasons...
...right up until the books stopped. And at that point, the limits of their ability to invent were laid bare to horrible consequence.
posted by hippybear at 8:59 PM on May 19 [7 favorites]
MASH was problematic as foretold.
So many great episodes though.
The Henry Blake departure/Radar scene, OMG. MASH had a job to do, and it did it well.
Game of Thrones was a horrible, nasty concept, and the show just amplified that. Made it though one book, and watched like, season 1. Why would I want more?
The shows I enjoyed, (The Peripheral), got cancelled. Ugh
posted by Windopaene at 9:13 PM on May 19 [4 favorites]
So many great episodes though.
The Henry Blake departure/Radar scene, OMG. MASH had a job to do, and it did it well.
Game of Thrones was a horrible, nasty concept, and the show just amplified that. Made it though one book, and watched like, season 1. Why would I want more?
The shows I enjoyed, (The Peripheral), got cancelled. Ugh
posted by Windopaene at 9:13 PM on May 19 [4 favorites]
IDK, to me the novelty of GoT as a kind of radically new lengthy-run middlebrow costume drama is a bit overblown. It was perfectly fine high-budget potboiler with very very good costumes. But well before this series there have been many channels that specialised in this kind of thing (looking at you, BBC adaptations of Jane Austen and Tolstoy, in the USA Roots and, for the classic instance of a series that wormed its way into public consciousness, Dynasty, and Japanese TV doing one big-budget sword-based feudal era drama per year). Middlebrow potboilers are a staple of television. It's no coincidence that Shogun is a remake of a 1970s first attempt.
You also can't get away from the actual source material in diagnosing plotting failure. Sure, the directors totally failed to wrap the series up in a coherent way that made any narrative sense. But pay attention: George RR Martin is doing no better.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 9:15 PM on May 19 [12 favorites]
You also can't get away from the actual source material in diagnosing plotting failure. Sure, the directors totally failed to wrap the series up in a coherent way that made any narrative sense. But pay attention: George RR Martin is doing no better.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 9:15 PM on May 19 [12 favorites]
Hear me out on this one, for I will only tell you once: 'Allo 'Allo Cinematic Universe.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 9:19 PM on May 19 [20 favorites]
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 9:19 PM on May 19 [20 favorites]
The shows I enjoyed, (The Peripheral), got cancelled. Ugh
Yet another sign of The Jackpot.
posted by Artw at 9:19 PM on May 19 [14 favorites]
Yet another sign of The Jackpot.
posted by Artw at 9:19 PM on May 19 [14 favorites]
I read the books well before the show came about. I was excited about the series coming out, and watched most of season 1 before stopping. I liked it, thought it was an excellent adaptation, but life got in the way and I just couldn't find the time to watch. Before long I was a full season behind, and just felt like I fell off a moving train and didn't want to catch up to it. It's been on the "to watch sometime" list ever since.
But reading about the final seasons, and how the series a) veered away (or rather, apparently extended beyond) Martin's novels, and b) really started to suck, I felt even less need to get back on the GOT train. I still may watch someday, but I'm really much more curious about the final novels. I may have to wait quite a while on those.
posted by zardoz at 9:23 PM on May 19
But reading about the final seasons, and how the series a) veered away (or rather, apparently extended beyond) Martin's novels, and b) really started to suck, I felt even less need to get back on the GOT train. I still may watch someday, but I'm really much more curious about the final novels. I may have to wait quite a while on those.
posted by zardoz at 9:23 PM on May 19
The company that makes this series doesn't pay residuals. Or if they do, it's nothing like the residuals that would have been paid out to the people who made Fantasy Island or whatever. The whole pay package has changed.
There are definitely residuals on Game of Thrones. I don’t know how different they to are network television, but Fantasy Island is an unfortunate example because one of the sticking points in the 1988 WGA strike was the poor residual structure for such shows.
posted by rhymedirective at 9:31 PM on May 19 [1 favorite]
There are definitely residuals on Game of Thrones. I don’t know how different they to are network television, but Fantasy Island is an unfortunate example because one of the sticking points in the 1988 WGA strike was the poor residual structure for such shows.
posted by rhymedirective at 9:31 PM on May 19 [1 favorite]
Or, for people of my generation, consider the greatest and most flawed example of a great High Concept episodic, long-story arc series that began strong, had some genuinely iconic moments that have entered popular culture, was at its peak a central part of everyday conversation and a frame to other television-watching, and ended up a flaming mess of narrative: The X Files.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 9:33 PM on May 19 [30 favorites]
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 9:33 PM on May 19 [30 favorites]
I'm having a hard time of thinking of adaptations of books -> minin-series, that don't piss me off. They seem to always get certain motivations/plot points totally wrong.
Capitalism and wealth extraction, amirite?
Just wait til Brando Sando starts selling his stuff to Hollywood. He goes on vacation and writes a book or two in his spare time. Hope the Murderbot show doesn't suck...
posted by Windopaene at 9:38 PM on May 19
Capitalism and wealth extraction, amirite?
Just wait til Brando Sando starts selling his stuff to Hollywood. He goes on vacation and writes a book or two in his spare time. Hope the Murderbot show doesn't suck...
posted by Windopaene at 9:38 PM on May 19
I think I'm not watching enough television shows. But what with all the telenovas,
there just aren't enough hours in the day.
posted by Czjewel at 9:54 PM on May 19
there just aren't enough hours in the day.
posted by Czjewel at 9:54 PM on May 19
I think a LOT about these predictions about how Game of Thrones would end, which were fundamentally predicated on, well, the idea that the show had good writing that would pay off in satisfying ways. Honestly, pretty much every prediction on this list would have made the last season significantly better, if only because almost every possible thing about the final season of GoT was a pointless disaster.
Naturally, there was also a follow-up post kind of breaking down exactly why it was bad and disappointing.
posted by DoctorFedora at 10:42 PM on May 19 [3 favorites]
Naturally, there was also a follow-up post kind of breaking down exactly why it was bad and disappointing.
posted by DoctorFedora at 10:42 PM on May 19 [3 favorites]
The company that makes this series doesn't pay residuals. Or if they do, it's nothing like the residuals that would have been paid out to the people who made Fantasy Island or whatever.
Ok, so I'm going to come into this conversation as someone who has spent the past two decades working in the pension and health plans for one of the largest of the entertainment industry guilds and seeing just a fraction of the amounts that residuals the people working on this show have made (before they eventually reach the ceiling on what is reportable to us, after which point they continue to receive residuals on which pension and health contributions are not sent to the plans).
A person can reasonably argue that the residuals the cast and crew of a show like Game of Thrones are paid are not on par with what they deserve (indeed, the unions argue this all the time) but the notion that they do not pay residuals or that those residuals are not significant is so wildly incorrect that it makes it hard to take the rest of your comment even a little bit seriously.
The production company for Game of Thrones was signatory to the collectively bargained agreements for DGA, SAG-AFTRA, WGA, etc. Those collectively bargained agreements are available on those guilds' websites. You can open them up and look for the word "residuals"; I promise you it's in there.
Eight seasons on a show of this size is more money in residuals for someone like Kit Harrington than I am likely to see in initial compensation for my ongoing job in my life.
posted by Parasite Unseen at 11:01 PM on May 19 [19 favorites]
Ok, so I'm going to come into this conversation as someone who has spent the past two decades working in the pension and health plans for one of the largest of the entertainment industry guilds and seeing just a fraction of the amounts that residuals the people working on this show have made (before they eventually reach the ceiling on what is reportable to us, after which point they continue to receive residuals on which pension and health contributions are not sent to the plans).
A person can reasonably argue that the residuals the cast and crew of a show like Game of Thrones are paid are not on par with what they deserve (indeed, the unions argue this all the time) but the notion that they do not pay residuals or that those residuals are not significant is so wildly incorrect that it makes it hard to take the rest of your comment even a little bit seriously.
The production company for Game of Thrones was signatory to the collectively bargained agreements for DGA, SAG-AFTRA, WGA, etc. Those collectively bargained agreements are available on those guilds' websites. You can open them up and look for the word "residuals"; I promise you it's in there.
Eight seasons on a show of this size is more money in residuals for someone like Kit Harrington than I am likely to see in initial compensation for my ongoing job in my life.
posted by Parasite Unseen at 11:01 PM on May 19 [19 favorites]
I guess I am curious... The Three Body Problem, by the same creators... does it have scenes of people fucking the background while others give exposition on the plot?
I thought the creators did a commendable job with the Three Body Problem in terms of writing. No, there's no fucking in the background.
See, in Game of Thrones, you already had great source material, and if all they did was just copy and paste the dialogue line by line, and ended up with a great show... well, did they do anything at all in terms of writing?
The Three Body Problem is challenging to film like The Foundation, because it skips forward in time between the books and gives you entirely new characters each time, so it's like starting all over again each time - it had no continuity, it was basically an entirely new book with new characters.
In book 1, the main characters are Wang Miao and Shi Qiang.
In book 2, the main character is Luo Ji.
In book 3, the main chracters are Cheng Xin, Yun Tianming and AA.
They managed to mash up most of the characters (sometimes combining them) into the "Oxford Five" - a group of 5 brilliant scientists who are good friends with each other, and they pulled forward some plotlines from book 3 into season 1 just to give them relevance. Otherwise some of them would be literally doing nothing until 400 years in the future, lol. A fair bit of actual rewriting was involved, and they did a credible job of it.
As for Game of Thrones, I was a fan of the books as they were released, A Storm of Swords absolutely blew my mind in 2000, such great fantasy writing and world building. But I struggled with A Feast Of Crows (2005) and disliked it, read it again and it sort of grew on me. A Dance With Dragons (2011) was just awful and I didn't even finish reading it.
As much as I criticize D&D, at least I finished watching the TV series, which is more than I can say for the books...
posted by xdvesper at 12:28 AM on May 20 [3 favorites]
I thought the creators did a commendable job with the Three Body Problem in terms of writing. No, there's no fucking in the background.
See, in Game of Thrones, you already had great source material, and if all they did was just copy and paste the dialogue line by line, and ended up with a great show... well, did they do anything at all in terms of writing?
The Three Body Problem is challenging to film like The Foundation, because it skips forward in time between the books and gives you entirely new characters each time, so it's like starting all over again each time - it had no continuity, it was basically an entirely new book with new characters.
In book 1, the main characters are Wang Miao and Shi Qiang.
In book 2, the main character is Luo Ji.
In book 3, the main chracters are Cheng Xin, Yun Tianming and AA.
They managed to mash up most of the characters (sometimes combining them) into the "Oxford Five" - a group of 5 brilliant scientists who are good friends with each other, and they pulled forward some plotlines from book 3 into season 1 just to give them relevance. Otherwise some of them would be literally doing nothing until 400 years in the future, lol. A fair bit of actual rewriting was involved, and they did a credible job of it.
As for Game of Thrones, I was a fan of the books as they were released, A Storm of Swords absolutely blew my mind in 2000, such great fantasy writing and world building. But I struggled with A Feast Of Crows (2005) and disliked it, read it again and it sort of grew on me. A Dance With Dragons (2011) was just awful and I didn't even finish reading it.
As much as I criticize D&D, at least I finished watching the TV series, which is more than I can say for the books...
posted by xdvesper at 12:28 AM on May 20 [3 favorites]
Alas, that's more than anyone can say for the books.
posted by Nerd of the North at 12:59 AM on May 20 [9 favorites]
posted by Nerd of the North at 12:59 AM on May 20 [9 favorites]
I think the general problem is the progressive enshittification of serialized television season by season. How many modern shows have actually had good arcs? How many sci-fi and/or fantasy shows out of that? The Expanse got basically cancelled. The Peripheral as mentioned above. The Star Trek franchise of late is a basket case. The reputation of Netflix's progressive seasonal cancellation practices. Benioff and Weiss are a symptom of a deeper problem of Hollywood TV, streamification speculative bubble, labor exploitation, IP exploitation, etc.
There are modern shows that succeed at completion, like Better Call Saul, but I do not watch those kinds of shows.
P.S. I did watch House of the Dragon season 1, and I liked it.
posted by polymodus at 1:27 AM on May 20 [2 favorites]
There are modern shows that succeed at completion, like Better Call Saul, but I do not watch those kinds of shows.
P.S. I did watch House of the Dragon season 1, and I liked it.
posted by polymodus at 1:27 AM on May 20 [2 favorites]
MetaFilter: so wildly incorrect that it makes it hard to take the rest of your comment even a little bit seriously
posted by jklaiho at 1:57 AM on May 20 [10 favorites]
posted by jklaiho at 1:57 AM on May 20 [10 favorites]
I am so resisting the urge to drop three to five lengthy paragraphs of nerdery on you all about why those Sirlin posts linked a few comments back are both super interesting and, based on both the books and behind the scenes interviews, would and could never have been correct about the Night King, Arya, Bran, or Jon. They are correct about Daenerys, mostly, and they're good posts, but it's pretty clear that he wasn't plugged in to the discussion part of the fandom or super familiar with the more plausible book-based theories.
Anyway, applaud my restraint. It'd really be a digression. I'd be embarrassed. You'd be embarrassed for me. Here's a bunch of lengthy paragraphs that are more on-topic.
Another thing he's correct about is the fact that many of the flaws in the last season could have been ameliorated a lot with the addition of just a scene or two here and there -- he says it about Daenerys's heel turn, but it's true in a broader sense.
To tie this back into the overall subject and TFA: One big factor of their approach to the show that Benioff and Weiss have discussed, but that I pretty much never see people talking about, is that in many cases, they didn't like to overexplain things -- they wanted viewers to work them out for themselves. This worked well sometimes. It falls absolutely flat in the last season, when it begins to feel more like viewers are being robbed of potentially interesting character/relationship moments and exposition that acts as connective tissue. At the same time, they left in stupid, obvious lines like Arya's "I know a killer when I see one," which adds to the vibe of inconsistency.
An example of what I'm talking about is the scene where Jon reveals his secret to Arya and Sansa, and the way it cuts before you see their reaction. It's true that you can guess their reaction by their behavior in previous and subsequent scenes. They cut the scene because, by this point, viewers had seen Sam and Bran figuring it out, then Sam telling Jon about it and Jon's initial reaction, then Jon reluctantly telling Daenerys about it and her initial reaction, and they didn't think that repeating the information yet again would serve the story. But after seven seasons, people mostly still wanted to hear these characters talk about it, because they were invested in the character relationships, not just the overall plot. Likewise, Jon's dialogue after this is mostly derided (he says the same thing, "She's my/our queen. I don't want it." about three different times), and the reason he's doing it is never explained. Each instance has a different subtext, and I don't think it's really hard to figure out why he's saying it, but by and large, people don't. A brief expository outburst would have helped a lot (although "Where are my dragons?" was mocked so relentlessly in press coverage of s2 that you'd also think the writers would have learned their lesson about accidental catchphrases). It could have shifted that from something mockable to something showing what the character was using rote phrases to try to accomplish and to try to hide.
Among people who still have something to say about GoT -- not the people who always hated it, and not the people who were mildly annoyed for a few weeks and then moved on with their lives -- I think it's interesting that so much of the discussion is actually driven by how erratic the quality became. Not "this was good" or "this was bad" but "this is such a weird melange." You had stuff like "Hardhome" (usually agreed to be a fantastic episode, and surprising because it was in 5x08, when the show had conditioned everyone to assume the Big Thing would happen in Ep 9 of a season). But it happened just two weeks after "Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken" (the episode with Sansa's wedding to Ramsay and some awful dialogue in the Dorne sequences, usually considered to be the worst of the show prior to the last few episodes). While GoT has definitely left the overall "monocultural obsession" zeitgeist, most of the discussion I still see hinges on this. (Well, the stuff that isn't the pure sour grapes that I mentioned in my last comment.)
posted by verbminx at 2:56 AM on May 20 [2 favorites]
Anyway, applaud my restraint. It'd really be a digression. I'd be embarrassed. You'd be embarrassed for me. Here's a bunch of lengthy paragraphs that are more on-topic.
Another thing he's correct about is the fact that many of the flaws in the last season could have been ameliorated a lot with the addition of just a scene or two here and there -- he says it about Daenerys's heel turn, but it's true in a broader sense.
To tie this back into the overall subject and TFA: One big factor of their approach to the show that Benioff and Weiss have discussed, but that I pretty much never see people talking about, is that in many cases, they didn't like to overexplain things -- they wanted viewers to work them out for themselves. This worked well sometimes. It falls absolutely flat in the last season, when it begins to feel more like viewers are being robbed of potentially interesting character/relationship moments and exposition that acts as connective tissue. At the same time, they left in stupid, obvious lines like Arya's "I know a killer when I see one," which adds to the vibe of inconsistency.
An example of what I'm talking about is the scene where Jon reveals his secret to Arya and Sansa, and the way it cuts before you see their reaction. It's true that you can guess their reaction by their behavior in previous and subsequent scenes. They cut the scene because, by this point, viewers had seen Sam and Bran figuring it out, then Sam telling Jon about it and Jon's initial reaction, then Jon reluctantly telling Daenerys about it and her initial reaction, and they didn't think that repeating the information yet again would serve the story. But after seven seasons, people mostly still wanted to hear these characters talk about it, because they were invested in the character relationships, not just the overall plot. Likewise, Jon's dialogue after this is mostly derided (he says the same thing, "She's my/our queen. I don't want it." about three different times), and the reason he's doing it is never explained. Each instance has a different subtext, and I don't think it's really hard to figure out why he's saying it, but by and large, people don't. A brief expository outburst would have helped a lot (although "Where are my dragons?" was mocked so relentlessly in press coverage of s2 that you'd also think the writers would have learned their lesson about accidental catchphrases). It could have shifted that from something mockable to something showing what the character was using rote phrases to try to accomplish and to try to hide.
Among people who still have something to say about GoT -- not the people who always hated it, and not the people who were mildly annoyed for a few weeks and then moved on with their lives -- I think it's interesting that so much of the discussion is actually driven by how erratic the quality became. Not "this was good" or "this was bad" but "this is such a weird melange." You had stuff like "Hardhome" (usually agreed to be a fantastic episode, and surprising because it was in 5x08, when the show had conditioned everyone to assume the Big Thing would happen in Ep 9 of a season). But it happened just two weeks after "Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken" (the episode with Sansa's wedding to Ramsay and some awful dialogue in the Dorne sequences, usually considered to be the worst of the show prior to the last few episodes). While GoT has definitely left the overall "monocultural obsession" zeitgeist, most of the discussion I still see hinges on this. (Well, the stuff that isn't the pure sour grapes that I mentioned in my last comment.)
posted by verbminx at 2:56 AM on May 20 [2 favorites]
I just finished reading the contemporaneous fan theory breakdown and post-finale reactions linked above and thought it would have made for a better show.
verbminx, I would say if you can't dissect a trencher full of beans here on a topic you're passionate about, where can you? Please don't hold back.
posted by Molesome at 3:07 AM on May 20 [5 favorites]
verbminx, I would say if you can't dissect a trencher full of beans here on a topic you're passionate about, where can you? Please don't hold back.
posted by Molesome at 3:07 AM on May 20 [5 favorites]
For all its problems and the terrible post book seasons, Game of Thrones has had a noticeable impact on the lives of people in Northern Ireland. It's hard to understate that it has been a big part of the economic redevelopment of the region. Given the deep sectarian divides in the communities here, having something current and modern as a shared cultural event (it seems like everyone either was an extra or knows someone who was an extra) that went across the communities is huge. Not everything is great - the Dark Hedges need protection from the increased foot traffic of tourists, AirBNB is making the already intentionally crippled housing market worse - but there's also more opportunities for people here than there was before GoT set up shop here.
I love The Last Watch, because it shows how much the country became a part of the series. There's so many folks like Andy who got an opportunity they never had before and were able to make a career out of it (he's a guide on the bus tours now and has been in a few other films). Even my wife, who is from Belfast and usually hates our American portrayals of Northern Ireland thought it was good and that Andy seemed like a sound lad.
While there are countless other aspects of post Troubles Northern Ireland that are contributing to a growing shift in the politics and sentiments here, the eight years Game of Thrones was being made here was both a product of those shifts and an amplifier of them.
posted by mrzarquon at 3:15 AM on May 20 [23 favorites]
I love The Last Watch, because it shows how much the country became a part of the series. There's so many folks like Andy who got an opportunity they never had before and were able to make a career out of it (he's a guide on the bus tours now and has been in a few other films). Even my wife, who is from Belfast and usually hates our American portrayals of Northern Ireland thought it was good and that Andy seemed like a sound lad.
While there are countless other aspects of post Troubles Northern Ireland that are contributing to a growing shift in the politics and sentiments here, the eight years Game of Thrones was being made here was both a product of those shifts and an amplifier of them.
posted by mrzarquon at 3:15 AM on May 20 [23 favorites]
None of these cowards in this article are willing to address how fundamentally the excremental last season undermined the whole show, a season so bad that a show that was on everyone's lips for a decade was basically memoryholed by even the most fervent of fans.
Ron Moore should have at least touched on it, given that he basically did close to the same thing with Battlestar Galactica. Years of effort, with some truly high highs, and then just utterly failed to stick the landing.
Agreed, I got all excited once I saw Moore was commenting and am dissatisfied that he didn't touch on. I remember watching the behind the scenes of stuff about the final season/story/episode of Battlestar Galatica and how he said he was having trouble writing the ending, then felt that he needed to do something that stayed true to the characters. At the time I thought to myself "Sure, but plot and good storytelling matters too!"
As to GoT, what fascinates me about the decline in quality is that HBO and GRR wanted the show to continue, but D&D were obviously out, so the show just ended. Why didn't HBO continue the show, which was a ratings powerhouse? How did D&D manage, for good or bad (ok ok we know it was bad) get HBO to agree to stop doing the show when they decided to stop doing that? Finally, whatever is whatever D&D did to get that to happen now impossible to do for current creators? Like when new projects are being pitched or contracts being made, has something changed where the people supplying the money are more explicit that they can and will continue the show if the creators decide to leave?
You had stuff like "Hardhome" (usually agreed to be a fantastic episode...
That episode, in retrospect, succinctly points out where D&D got things so wrong. Because the way that episode went and ended, it made a narrative and storytelling promise that the show's creators ultimately failed to live up to. Not only that, it seems they forgot what story they had told or just didn't care anymore. The "Long Night" lasted for literally a single, terribly color graded, night and that was it.
That's the real problem with GoT and any rewatch of it. You know it ends terribly, where previously smart characters start behaving stupidly, just because the plot (aka the creators) says they should.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:13 AM on May 20 [2 favorites]
Ron Moore should have at least touched on it, given that he basically did close to the same thing with Battlestar Galactica. Years of effort, with some truly high highs, and then just utterly failed to stick the landing.
Agreed, I got all excited once I saw Moore was commenting and am dissatisfied that he didn't touch on. I remember watching the behind the scenes of stuff about the final season/story/episode of Battlestar Galatica and how he said he was having trouble writing the ending, then felt that he needed to do something that stayed true to the characters. At the time I thought to myself "Sure, but plot and good storytelling matters too!"
As to GoT, what fascinates me about the decline in quality is that HBO and GRR wanted the show to continue, but D&D were obviously out, so the show just ended. Why didn't HBO continue the show, which was a ratings powerhouse? How did D&D manage, for good or bad (ok ok we know it was bad) get HBO to agree to stop doing the show when they decided to stop doing that? Finally, whatever is whatever D&D did to get that to happen now impossible to do for current creators? Like when new projects are being pitched or contracts being made, has something changed where the people supplying the money are more explicit that they can and will continue the show if the creators decide to leave?
You had stuff like "Hardhome" (usually agreed to be a fantastic episode...
That episode, in retrospect, succinctly points out where D&D got things so wrong. Because the way that episode went and ended, it made a narrative and storytelling promise that the show's creators ultimately failed to live up to. Not only that, it seems they forgot what story they had told or just didn't care anymore. The "Long Night" lasted for literally a single, terribly color graded, night and that was it.
That's the real problem with GoT and any rewatch of it. You know it ends terribly, where previously smart characters start behaving stupidly, just because the plot (aka the creators) says they should.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:13 AM on May 20 [2 favorites]
I'm having a hard time of thinking of adaptations of books -> minin-series, that don't piss me off.
There's The Expanse, but it's weird in that Franck and Abraham were writers for the show as well, they weren't precious about changes from print to tv, and at least Franck seemed very interested in learning how tv production actually worked.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 4:21 AM on May 20 [6 favorites]
There's The Expanse, but it's weird in that Franck and Abraham were writers for the show as well, they weren't precious about changes from print to tv, and at least Franck seemed very interested in learning how tv production actually worked.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 4:21 AM on May 20 [6 favorites]
As a casual fan of sf/fantasy tv - meaning that I have rarely managed to watch a whole season of anything - one of the biggest influences of GoTs has to be way that characters spend all their time brooding, plotting, and planning. When this works well it’s things like Succession, and when it goes badly it’s things like Krypton, but either way it’s hard to drop into a series mid-way through a season. Its an overrated trend, IMHO, as people are excited by good stories (gots season 1-5) and not seeing their favourite characters do the thing (gots seasons 7-8).
posted by The River Ivel at 4:50 AM on May 20 [2 favorites]
posted by The River Ivel at 4:50 AM on May 20 [2 favorites]
You also can't get away from the actual source material in diagnosing plotting failure. Sure, the directors totally failed to wrap the series up in a coherent way that made any narrative sense. But pay attention: George RR Martin is doing no better.
GRRM published eleven sample chapters from The Winds of Winter back in the day, which led a lot of people to believe that he was going to finish the books (or at least have a pretty good idea of the ending) before the show ended. That obviously didn't happen. Criticism of GRRM for delaying the publication of the books got so bad that Neil Gaiman felt compelled to tell people that "George R.R. Martin is not your bitch." Well, sure, Neil. But the reverse is also true, and some of us might have felt a bit led on at this point, or even well before it.
posted by Halloween Jack at 5:12 AM on May 20 [5 favorites]
GRRM published eleven sample chapters from The Winds of Winter back in the day, which led a lot of people to believe that he was going to finish the books (or at least have a pretty good idea of the ending) before the show ended. That obviously didn't happen. Criticism of GRRM for delaying the publication of the books got so bad that Neil Gaiman felt compelled to tell people that "George R.R. Martin is not your bitch." Well, sure, Neil. But the reverse is also true, and some of us might have felt a bit led on at this point, or even well before it.
posted by Halloween Jack at 5:12 AM on May 20 [5 favorites]
But pay attention: George RR Martin is doing no better.
There was a "what harmless low-level conspiracy theory do you believe in" discussion making the rounds on Twitter a little while back and one of the better ones was "the GoT show actually went exactly as George RR Martin intended for the books and his massive embarrassment at the public reaction to the show's end is the real reason why he'll never finish the books".
posted by star gentle uterus at 5:29 AM on May 20 [19 favorites]
There was a "what harmless low-level conspiracy theory do you believe in" discussion making the rounds on Twitter a little while back and one of the better ones was "the GoT show actually went exactly as George RR Martin intended for the books and his massive embarrassment at the public reaction to the show's end is the real reason why he'll never finish the books".
posted by star gentle uterus at 5:29 AM on May 20 [19 favorites]
I don't actually think it's true that the show could have gone on for many more seasons!
First and foremost, the actors were exhausted and done. Many of the leads were cast at the beginning of their career and, while the show gave them fame and financial security, it was also grueling to shoot, and scheduled such that it was hard for most of them to build on their newfound fame. I can anticipate a lack of sympathy for that, given that it's what they signed on for, and it did make the ones who were the stars of the later seasons huge amounts of money. But still, it's understandable that they were burnt out, that some of them had some pretty serious mental health battles, and so on. I feel like people are going to think I mainly mean Kit Harington, but at a minimum, everyone who played a Stark sibling was going through it.
Second, Benioff and Weiss were the rights holders. Their position as showrunners was not work for hire for HBO; they brought the show to the network. I'm not saying that it would have been totally impossible for HBO to kick them off of the show (I am not sure of that; I know that HBO did sometimes leverage network pressure about things like recasting Daario) -- only that most people's assumption of the way the business relationship worked is not correct. I do know that it if it was possible for HBO to remove Benioff and Weiss, it would have been difficult and expensive for them to do so, and would probably have involved legal wrangling that probably would have gotten nasty. The rights situation is different now -- prior to a few years ago, any future programs set in Westeros legally had to go through Benioff and Weiss's production company. That's not the case anymore, and they claimed pretty recently to have walked away from a lot of money that they were offered for House of the Dragon as part of this arrangement, because they just wanted to be done with Westeros. Supposedly.
But past that, about some of the other factors...
GRRM says "they could have done 13 seasons!" because GRRM has added a thousand subplots, and one of the things GRRM wanted to do with these books when he started writing them was to write on a scale that had nothing to do with television budgets. I have a writer friend who says that GRRM is not a good curator of his own world, and in some ways, I agree with that. He'll cut chapters that aren't working, but at the same time, some of the books' subplots are incredibly convoluted, and it seems unlikely that all of them could have been faithfully adapted as part of the GoT we got (let's say from s5 onward) in a way that most people would have enjoyed or found satisfying. I'm not sure that "this could have been 13 years instead of 8!" is actually an advertisement. I'm not sure that audiences would have stuck with the show through these convoluted minor subplots for another five years when what they wanted to know was what would happen with the Army of the Dead, Dany's pursuit of the throne, and so on. It would have been a slower-paced show for sure, and "too fast" is a valid complaint about the last couple of seasons, but "too slow" would also have been a problem. I do not know how many people really wanted to see Jon Snow spending an entire episode counting beets in the basement storeroom of Castle Black. (Victarion Greyjoy's volcano hand, though? We were ROBBED.)
Skipping another incredibly nerdy infodump -- no, this isn't it! -- it's really hard to say for sure which planned elements are and aren't going to be important. But if you have any kind of grasp of narrative logic, and you also know that GRRM has been very firm on the idea that the series only has two more books, you can imagine that at least some of that stuff may be mostly important not for its own sake but for its impact on the overall plot (to be clear, we're talking about stuff like Fake Aegon, and how you feel about it is going to depend on your own assumptions about Fake Aegon's role in future books and overall impact on the plot -- the more you've assumed he'll be a protagonist, the more upset it's likely you are that he was cut). Would this storyline have really added a lot? As another example, do we miss a bunch of random Northern lords kicking and scheming around Winterfell (something that's cool to read but would likely have been hard for the General Audience to follow)? Do we miss Penny? I doubt it, others may disagree, and it's really hard to say either way without making broad assumptions about books that haven't been published yet... but that's what's under discussion with "13 seasons!"
I do know that the only cut that GRRM actually expressed dismay or disapproval about is Lady Stoneheart.
posted by verbminx at 5:50 AM on May 20 [8 favorites]
First and foremost, the actors were exhausted and done. Many of the leads were cast at the beginning of their career and, while the show gave them fame and financial security, it was also grueling to shoot, and scheduled such that it was hard for most of them to build on their newfound fame. I can anticipate a lack of sympathy for that, given that it's what they signed on for, and it did make the ones who were the stars of the later seasons huge amounts of money. But still, it's understandable that they were burnt out, that some of them had some pretty serious mental health battles, and so on. I feel like people are going to think I mainly mean Kit Harington, but at a minimum, everyone who played a Stark sibling was going through it.
Second, Benioff and Weiss were the rights holders. Their position as showrunners was not work for hire for HBO; they brought the show to the network. I'm not saying that it would have been totally impossible for HBO to kick them off of the show (I am not sure of that; I know that HBO did sometimes leverage network pressure about things like recasting Daario) -- only that most people's assumption of the way the business relationship worked is not correct. I do know that it if it was possible for HBO to remove Benioff and Weiss, it would have been difficult and expensive for them to do so, and would probably have involved legal wrangling that probably would have gotten nasty. The rights situation is different now -- prior to a few years ago, any future programs set in Westeros legally had to go through Benioff and Weiss's production company. That's not the case anymore, and they claimed pretty recently to have walked away from a lot of money that they were offered for House of the Dragon as part of this arrangement, because they just wanted to be done with Westeros. Supposedly.
But past that, about some of the other factors...
GRRM says "they could have done 13 seasons!" because GRRM has added a thousand subplots, and one of the things GRRM wanted to do with these books when he started writing them was to write on a scale that had nothing to do with television budgets. I have a writer friend who says that GRRM is not a good curator of his own world, and in some ways, I agree with that. He'll cut chapters that aren't working, but at the same time, some of the books' subplots are incredibly convoluted, and it seems unlikely that all of them could have been faithfully adapted as part of the GoT we got (let's say from s5 onward) in a way that most people would have enjoyed or found satisfying. I'm not sure that "this could have been 13 years instead of 8!" is actually an advertisement. I'm not sure that audiences would have stuck with the show through these convoluted minor subplots for another five years when what they wanted to know was what would happen with the Army of the Dead, Dany's pursuit of the throne, and so on. It would have been a slower-paced show for sure, and "too fast" is a valid complaint about the last couple of seasons, but "too slow" would also have been a problem. I do not know how many people really wanted to see Jon Snow spending an entire episode counting beets in the basement storeroom of Castle Black. (Victarion Greyjoy's volcano hand, though? We were ROBBED.)
Skipping another incredibly nerdy infodump -- no, this isn't it! -- it's really hard to say for sure which planned elements are and aren't going to be important. But if you have any kind of grasp of narrative logic, and you also know that GRRM has been very firm on the idea that the series only has two more books, you can imagine that at least some of that stuff may be mostly important not for its own sake but for its impact on the overall plot (to be clear, we're talking about stuff like Fake Aegon, and how you feel about it is going to depend on your own assumptions about Fake Aegon's role in future books and overall impact on the plot -- the more you've assumed he'll be a protagonist, the more upset it's likely you are that he was cut). Would this storyline have really added a lot? As another example, do we miss a bunch of random Northern lords kicking and scheming around Winterfell (something that's cool to read but would likely have been hard for the General Audience to follow)? Do we miss Penny? I doubt it, others may disagree, and it's really hard to say either way without making broad assumptions about books that haven't been published yet... but that's what's under discussion with "13 seasons!"
I do know that the only cut that GRRM actually expressed dismay or disapproval about is Lady Stoneheart.
posted by verbminx at 5:50 AM on May 20 [8 favorites]
(Also, I think star gentle uterus is on to something, but I never said that.)
posted by verbminx at 5:51 AM on May 20 [3 favorites]
posted by verbminx at 5:51 AM on May 20 [3 favorites]
Also, I think star gentle uterus is on to something, but I never said that
My favorite is that GRR has finished the book or series and will have it released after he's past, so he doesn't have to deal the reactions.
I don't actually think it's true that the show could have gone on for many more seasons!
Oh, I think the series could have possibly six or seven full seasons with a bit of tightening. GRR created a lot of background and having never read the books, overall I don't find a huge problem with general plot that D&D did do. In face, it feels a bit padded at times and then rushed at others. The final battle should have been several episodes long, at least.
Otherwise, I wish the writers in the article had discussed the important of sticking the landing and what happens if you don't. 'Cause ultimately, we fall in love with stories and when we do, we're more willing to forgive problem elements or failures in plot.
For instance, Arya being Tywin's cupbearer produced some absolutely riveting scenes. Yet in retrospect, with the terrible ending, those scenes now come off as glorious, well done spectacle, that amounted to nothing. Tywin absolutely should have figured out it was Arya. She absolutely should have been able to kill him, what with serving his food and having access to a trained assassin.
Had the series ended better, we would still be able to see the nonsense and spectacle of the those scenes and situation, plot and character wise, but we wouldn't care. Now though? We, or at least I, notice how shaky aspects of what D&D were doing in their adaptation. The flaws become more obvious because there is no longer any love there.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:19 AM on May 20 [4 favorites]
My favorite is that GRR has finished the book or series and will have it released after he's past, so he doesn't have to deal the reactions.
I don't actually think it's true that the show could have gone on for many more seasons!
Oh, I think the series could have possibly six or seven full seasons with a bit of tightening. GRR created a lot of background and having never read the books, overall I don't find a huge problem with general plot that D&D did do. In face, it feels a bit padded at times and then rushed at others. The final battle should have been several episodes long, at least.
Otherwise, I wish the writers in the article had discussed the important of sticking the landing and what happens if you don't. 'Cause ultimately, we fall in love with stories and when we do, we're more willing to forgive problem elements or failures in plot.
For instance, Arya being Tywin's cupbearer produced some absolutely riveting scenes. Yet in retrospect, with the terrible ending, those scenes now come off as glorious, well done spectacle, that amounted to nothing. Tywin absolutely should have figured out it was Arya. She absolutely should have been able to kill him, what with serving his food and having access to a trained assassin.
Had the series ended better, we would still be able to see the nonsense and spectacle of the those scenes and situation, plot and character wise, but we wouldn't care. Now though? We, or at least I, notice how shaky aspects of what D&D were doing in their adaptation. The flaws become more obvious because there is no longer any love there.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:19 AM on May 20 [4 favorites]
Totally agreed, Brandon. And the s2 interactions between Arya and Tywin are a great example of a change that has become divisive in the fandom over time on the exact lines you discuss: it was fascinating, well-written, well-acted, it gave Tywin more depth, and Arya's shortsightedness about the assassination orders (and how her wrong choices kind of enable the Red Wedding to happen in both books and show, along with many other factors) was interesting.
But it was shortsightedness, and is less convincing when she's two years older than in the books and interacting with Tywin rather than Roose Bolton. When people have time and motivation to dissect the flaws, they tend to conclude that it's not believable that Tywin didn't figure out her identity (and that tends to be the main sticking point -- that Tywin suddenly loses his ruthlessness and also some of his intelligence in the service of this interaction).
I'm really just restating what you said, I guess, but because it genuinely does come up for discussion a lot as something that initially got a lot of unconsidered praise and that audiences should instead have questioned.
And FWIW, I also agree that a tighter version of the show was more than possible. Like, the Dorne arc really has a lot of adaptational changes. Many of the Sand Snakes are cut and what little of Arianne's role that survives is given to Ellaria; much of that is because the showrunners are huge fans of Indira Varma and wanted to stick with a character and actor we knew to anchor the storyline, someone we care about, rather than introducing a new one if they didn't have to. The stuff the Sand Snakes do involving Myrcella (and therefore the overall plot) is very different, but the result is probably pretty similar in that we know Myrcella will die in the books, most likely young.
Most people also really hate the Dorne arc and think, correctly, that it is indicative of the show's decline in quality in S5. What most people aren't aware of is that the Dorne arc was intended as fanservice! They originally wanted to cut it completely (presumably this would have just involved Myrcella's body being returned to King's Landing), but they were told that people were very excited for it and would expect to see it. Should they have gone with that "just cut it" instinct? Compared with what we got, probably. How would cutting it completely have affected the structure of the episodes in that season, though, and what material would have been used instead -- some of the more complex court politics in Meereen? More of Stannis's time at Castle Black, incorporating the times when Jon advises him on Northern politics? It's really hard to say, but really easy to say that s5 could have been better and that getting rid of that storyline would have represented instant improvement.
posted by verbminx at 6:45 AM on May 20 [2 favorites]
But it was shortsightedness, and is less convincing when she's two years older than in the books and interacting with Tywin rather than Roose Bolton. When people have time and motivation to dissect the flaws, they tend to conclude that it's not believable that Tywin didn't figure out her identity (and that tends to be the main sticking point -- that Tywin suddenly loses his ruthlessness and also some of his intelligence in the service of this interaction).
I'm really just restating what you said, I guess, but because it genuinely does come up for discussion a lot as something that initially got a lot of unconsidered praise and that audiences should instead have questioned.
And FWIW, I also agree that a tighter version of the show was more than possible. Like, the Dorne arc really has a lot of adaptational changes. Many of the Sand Snakes are cut and what little of Arianne's role that survives is given to Ellaria; much of that is because the showrunners are huge fans of Indira Varma and wanted to stick with a character and actor we knew to anchor the storyline, someone we care about, rather than introducing a new one if they didn't have to. The stuff the Sand Snakes do involving Myrcella (and therefore the overall plot) is very different, but the result is probably pretty similar in that we know Myrcella will die in the books, most likely young.
Most people also really hate the Dorne arc and think, correctly, that it is indicative of the show's decline in quality in S5. What most people aren't aware of is that the Dorne arc was intended as fanservice! They originally wanted to cut it completely (presumably this would have just involved Myrcella's body being returned to King's Landing), but they were told that people were very excited for it and would expect to see it. Should they have gone with that "just cut it" instinct? Compared with what we got, probably. How would cutting it completely have affected the structure of the episodes in that season, though, and what material would have been used instead -- some of the more complex court politics in Meereen? More of Stannis's time at Castle Black, incorporating the times when Jon advises him on Northern politics? It's really hard to say, but really easy to say that s5 could have been better and that getting rid of that storyline would have represented instant improvement.
posted by verbminx at 6:45 AM on May 20 [2 favorites]
I DNFed the books somewhere in the middle of book 2 or 3.
I got halfway through the first episode of the TV series, and remembered why I didn't finish the books.
posted by signal at 6:51 AM on May 20 [2 favorites]
I got halfway through the first episode of the TV series, and remembered why I didn't finish the books.
posted by signal at 6:51 AM on May 20 [2 favorites]
I dunno, I really liked that Tywin died on the throne...
posted by Molesome at 7:21 AM on May 20 [4 favorites]
posted by Molesome at 7:21 AM on May 20 [4 favorites]
But still, it's understandable that they were burnt out, that some of them had some pretty serious mental health battles, and so on. I feel like people are going to think I mainly mean Kit Harington, but at a minimum, everyone who played a Stark sibling was going through it.
Emilia Clarke nearly died. She seems to have fully recovered, but still.
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:04 AM on May 20 [1 favorite]
Emilia Clarke nearly died. She seems to have fully recovered, but still.
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:04 AM on May 20 [1 favorite]
She needed that latte to bolster her.
posted by Artw at 8:28 AM on May 20 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 8:28 AM on May 20 [1 favorite]
I'm glad this discussion turned, for a time, to GRRM, because he's the culprit here. Sure, he's an artist and doesn't owe his audience a thing, but he also profited immensely from the first few seasons that were directly adapted from this story. The fact that his story didn't have an ending, and that the showrunners were forced to invent one, is his fault, full stop.
I've long held a theory that TV suffers any time a tight story with a tangible ending in sight becomes popular and gets an extension, because it should be obvious that what the audience will get is seat of the pants filler and maybe no satisfying ending at all (see Lost as a prime example) because of the need to keep things going to serve the ends of the marketing department not the story.
Fargo does the opposite of this very well, and TV should learn from Fargo. Tell a story, start to finish, and if the audience likes it enough to want more, tell another story.
posted by OHenryPacey at 9:08 AM on May 20 [10 favorites]
I've long held a theory that TV suffers any time a tight story with a tangible ending in sight becomes popular and gets an extension, because it should be obvious that what the audience will get is seat of the pants filler and maybe no satisfying ending at all (see Lost as a prime example) because of the need to keep things going to serve the ends of the marketing department not the story.
Fargo does the opposite of this very well, and TV should learn from Fargo. Tell a story, start to finish, and if the audience likes it enough to want more, tell another story.
posted by OHenryPacey at 9:08 AM on May 20 [10 favorites]
I rewatched the whole deal and honestly whatever they paid Peter Dinklage wasn't nearly enough.
posted by pantarei70 at 9:23 AM on May 20 [7 favorites]
posted by pantarei70 at 9:23 AM on May 20 [7 favorites]
Halloween Jack - Yes. I didn't bring it up both because it was all over by the time S4 aired (though she also lost her father just before s7 filmed) and because I was worried I was straying too far from the subject of the article. It also seems like she might not have wanted the show to end quite as much as some of the other younger cast and was not really struggling with mental health in the same way, or with difficult outdoor shooting conditions. But she did spend more time working on the show in later seasons than anyone else did, doing greenscreen work on the dragon buck for special effects for several months outside of the regular shooting schedule, and as far as I know, the demanding schedule affected her career opportunities. When the show ended, she had the strongest career of the young cast, but that's definitely not the case now.
Without going into great detail about it, COVID lockdown seems to have had a serious negative effect on her career -- she really hasn't done a lot of acting since 2020. A movie, a poorly received Marvel series, some voiceover, a West End play that was postponed for 2 years. But she seems to have leaned into working for her brain injury charity and recently received an MBE for it. I have literally never heard a bad word about her, so I really hope that she finds success in whatever way she most hopes to in the future.
posted by verbminx at 9:36 AM on May 20 [2 favorites]
Without going into great detail about it, COVID lockdown seems to have had a serious negative effect on her career -- she really hasn't done a lot of acting since 2020. A movie, a poorly received Marvel series, some voiceover, a West End play that was postponed for 2 years. But she seems to have leaned into working for her brain injury charity and recently received an MBE for it. I have literally never heard a bad word about her, so I really hope that she finds success in whatever way she most hopes to in the future.
posted by verbminx at 9:36 AM on May 20 [2 favorites]
DoctorFedora: "I think a LOT about these predictions about how Game of Thrones would end,"
Dear god, I'd never read those before. Did someone send that blog post to GRRM? Because if he's stuck trying to figure out how to wrap up the novels, that's a good start
posted by caution live frogs at 11:35 AM on May 20 [2 favorites]
Dear god, I'd never read those before. Did someone send that blog post to GRRM? Because if he's stuck trying to figure out how to wrap up the novels, that's a good start
posted by caution live frogs at 11:35 AM on May 20 [2 favorites]
Anything that doesn’t end with a generation ship reveal would be a disappointment to me.
posted by Artw at 12:27 PM on May 20 [3 favorites]
posted by Artw at 12:27 PM on May 20 [3 favorites]
Artw, I imagined the show ending with some of the dragonrider characters going over a huge mountain range in the far reaches of the "known world" part of Planetos, and everything being like the Jetsons, with flying cars and robot butlers, and people going, "Holy shit, are those LARPers on the other side of the mountains still going at it? Whoa. Hey, let me introduce you to the head of the company that made the dragons!"
posted by Halloween Jack at 2:06 PM on May 20 [2 favorites]
posted by Halloween Jack at 2:06 PM on May 20 [2 favorites]
“I guess leaving them in there with the rogue omnipowerful super computer that goes into ‘Magic is real’ mode every few decades was a bad idea.”
posted by Artw at 2:53 PM on May 20 [2 favorites]
posted by Artw at 2:53 PM on May 20 [2 favorites]
That episode, ["Hardhome",] in retrospect, succinctly points out where D&D got things so wrong. Because the way that episode went and ended, it made a narrative and storytelling promise that the show's creators ultimately failed to live up to. Not only that, it seems they forgot what story they had told or just didn't care anymore. The "Long Night" lasted for literally a single, terribly color graded, night and that was it.
It’s not just the show’s creators; the narrative promise of the books will be extremely challenging to fulfill satisfactorily. GRRM set up both a big man vs nature conflict with the Others/White Walkers and a big man vs man conflict in who will ultimately sit on the Iron Throne. The interplay between those two conflicts drives a lot of the energy of the books and show, but because they are so twisted together, resolving one plot will necessarily undercut the tension in the other.
Both Martin and D&D clearly care more about the outcome on the Iron Throne, with the White Walkers as an incremental threat. The problem is that the books and the show open with the White Walkers and the threat of another Long Night, which primes the audience to think that the supernatural plot will ultimately be the more important thread. If you give the audience a mystery but you aren’t actually invested in solving that mystery, you need to make that very clear up front. (This is why people are still mad about Lost fifteen years later, but there’s tons of critical love for The Leftovers and Watchmen, for example; it’s also something Brian K. Vaughan learned before he started writing Saga.)
It’s tough because that prologue does immediately suck you in, and having the reader aware of a threat of which the characters are not builds a ton of momentum. But that momentum then should build until the very end, not midway through the last run of episodes. I think that swapping Daenerys’s sack of Kings Landing and the Battle For Winterfell might have worked, or having Daenerys napalm Kings Landing in order to save it before an ultimate climatic night at Winterfell. If her heel turn needs to come at the end of the narrative—and it’s clear in retrospect that the Meereenese knot is, “how can Daenerys leave Meereen without telegraphing that she’s a despot”—then the resolution of the Slightly Longer Night can’t possibly have the impact the audience expects.
posted by thecaddy at 3:38 PM on May 20 [2 favorites]
It’s not just the show’s creators; the narrative promise of the books will be extremely challenging to fulfill satisfactorily. GRRM set up both a big man vs nature conflict with the Others/White Walkers and a big man vs man conflict in who will ultimately sit on the Iron Throne. The interplay between those two conflicts drives a lot of the energy of the books and show, but because they are so twisted together, resolving one plot will necessarily undercut the tension in the other.
Both Martin and D&D clearly care more about the outcome on the Iron Throne, with the White Walkers as an incremental threat. The problem is that the books and the show open with the White Walkers and the threat of another Long Night, which primes the audience to think that the supernatural plot will ultimately be the more important thread. If you give the audience a mystery but you aren’t actually invested in solving that mystery, you need to make that very clear up front. (This is why people are still mad about Lost fifteen years later, but there’s tons of critical love for The Leftovers and Watchmen, for example; it’s also something Brian K. Vaughan learned before he started writing Saga.)
It’s tough because that prologue does immediately suck you in, and having the reader aware of a threat of which the characters are not builds a ton of momentum. But that momentum then should build until the very end, not midway through the last run of episodes. I think that swapping Daenerys’s sack of Kings Landing and the Battle For Winterfell might have worked, or having Daenerys napalm Kings Landing in order to save it before an ultimate climatic night at Winterfell. If her heel turn needs to come at the end of the narrative—and it’s clear in retrospect that the Meereenese knot is, “how can Daenerys leave Meereen without telegraphing that she’s a despot”—then the resolution of the Slightly Longer Night can’t possibly have the impact the audience expects.
posted by thecaddy at 3:38 PM on May 20 [2 favorites]
I am more and more worried about the state of prestige TV.
I never watched GoT, or even read the books, because I have a general policy of not reading any series of books until it's complete...just because of things like GRRM not finishing the series. I have a real problem with not knowing how the story ends.
And I, too, was disappointed in the end of Battlestar Galactica. I knew then that I would have problems with anything Ronald Moore did in the future. This is why writers are encouraged to begin with the ending in mind. J. Michael Straczynski managed to make all five seasons he planned of Babylon 5.
The biggest problem I see with shows based on existing properties is the how the producers approach the dilemma of doing the whole story at once in a single season, or stretching it out over multiple seasons and risking cancellation (a special concern if you reach a deal with Netflix, I've heard). Contrast The Peripheral with Shogun. Fans of the former live with the disappointment of not being able to see the whole story on the screen. Fans of the latter got to see the novel's whole story (with parts left out, of course) in single ecstatic, whirlwind season. Now FX has announced two more seasons of Shogun. Sure, Blackthorne spent the rest of his life in Japan, and Japanese history certainly moved forward. There are stories there, but they are not Clavell's stories. To put it crudely, has FX blown its load?
To echo Stephen King's thoughts, adaptations come and adaptations go, but the original is untouched by them and sits on your bookshelf. I know how William Gibson finished The Peripheral. (Yeah, I said I don't read unfinished series, but no one can keep me from a new Gibson book.) I know James Clavell wrote other novels of the clash of Asian and British culture but never returned to Blackthorne in Japan. I know how these stories in particular end, and I guess that's what's most important to me.
posted by lhauser at 8:58 PM on May 20 [5 favorites]
I never watched GoT, or even read the books, because I have a general policy of not reading any series of books until it's complete...just because of things like GRRM not finishing the series. I have a real problem with not knowing how the story ends.
And I, too, was disappointed in the end of Battlestar Galactica. I knew then that I would have problems with anything Ronald Moore did in the future. This is why writers are encouraged to begin with the ending in mind. J. Michael Straczynski managed to make all five seasons he planned of Babylon 5.
The biggest problem I see with shows based on existing properties is the how the producers approach the dilemma of doing the whole story at once in a single season, or stretching it out over multiple seasons and risking cancellation (a special concern if you reach a deal with Netflix, I've heard). Contrast The Peripheral with Shogun. Fans of the former live with the disappointment of not being able to see the whole story on the screen. Fans of the latter got to see the novel's whole story (with parts left out, of course) in single ecstatic, whirlwind season. Now FX has announced two more seasons of Shogun. Sure, Blackthorne spent the rest of his life in Japan, and Japanese history certainly moved forward. There are stories there, but they are not Clavell's stories. To put it crudely, has FX blown its load?
To echo Stephen King's thoughts, adaptations come and adaptations go, but the original is untouched by them and sits on your bookshelf. I know how William Gibson finished The Peripheral. (Yeah, I said I don't read unfinished series, but no one can keep me from a new Gibson book.) I know James Clavell wrote other novels of the clash of Asian and British culture but never returned to Blackthorne in Japan. I know how these stories in particular end, and I guess that's what's most important to me.
posted by lhauser at 8:58 PM on May 20 [5 favorites]
You can't spell "Asshai" without "AI"! (/grimace! listen, I'm not the one who started with magic computer jokes here!)
Ok, that joke aside: Shogun! This is the first show that has felt like the good years of Game of Thrones to me -- similar texture, hitting all my tv-watching sweet spots, so I always recommend it to people I know who liked GoT when GoT was good. But I think that's underselling it, because there are a lot of GoT haters who will still enjoy Shogun. If it shares some points of interest, it also doesn't have nearly as many of the same problems.
And lhauser is absolutely correct: because S1 adapts the entire book, it's also easy to recommend on that axis. Further seasons could be good (please please please let them be good), but if they're not, S1 is still there as a complete series; further seasons can maybe tarnish the legacy a little if they're bad, but they can't take away from S1 being a fantastic adaptation of the novel.
posted by verbminx at 11:21 PM on May 20 [1 favorite]
Ok, that joke aside: Shogun! This is the first show that has felt like the good years of Game of Thrones to me -- similar texture, hitting all my tv-watching sweet spots, so I always recommend it to people I know who liked GoT when GoT was good. But I think that's underselling it, because there are a lot of GoT haters who will still enjoy Shogun. If it shares some points of interest, it also doesn't have nearly as many of the same problems.
And lhauser is absolutely correct: because S1 adapts the entire book, it's also easy to recommend on that axis. Further seasons could be good (please please please let them be good), but if they're not, S1 is still there as a complete series; further seasons can maybe tarnish the legacy a little if they're bad, but they can't take away from S1 being a fantastic adaptation of the novel.
posted by verbminx at 11:21 PM on May 20 [1 favorite]
Metafilter: Oh shit, I forgot, I was typing a Metafilter comment and ended up typing a manifesto.
posted by fomhar at 8:27 AM on May 21 [2 favorites]
posted by fomhar at 8:27 AM on May 21 [2 favorites]
Hard for someone who works in the business to criticize the last seasons of GOT, because everyone involved falls into at least one of five unpleasant categories: lazy, venal, apathetic, stupid, or lying about the foregoing.
Rushing the ending (seasons 6*-8) with 23 episodes in four years instead of 40 - HBO being penny wise, pound foolish? Show-runners or lead cast bored, lazy or distracted by other projects? An unholy combination of the two (show-runners saying "hey let's drop 13 episodes" and suits say "yes" instead of pushing back).
Gradual, and then sudden decline of the plot into oblivion? GRRM lazy (didn't give story points) or incompetent (those were his story points?). Writers lazy (took GRRM bad story points because they didn't care), timid (took GRRM bad story points because couldn't say "no") or incompetent (GRRM gave no story points or other story and the actually filmed story was their idea).
*the "rush to the finish" was plainly evident in season 6
posted by MattD at 5:27 PM on May 21
Rushing the ending (seasons 6*-8) with 23 episodes in four years instead of 40 - HBO being penny wise, pound foolish? Show-runners or lead cast bored, lazy or distracted by other projects? An unholy combination of the two (show-runners saying "hey let's drop 13 episodes" and suits say "yes" instead of pushing back).
Gradual, and then sudden decline of the plot into oblivion? GRRM lazy (didn't give story points) or incompetent (those were his story points?). Writers lazy (took GRRM bad story points because they didn't care), timid (took GRRM bad story points because couldn't say "no") or incompetent (GRRM gave no story points or other story and the actually filmed story was their idea).
*the "rush to the finish" was plainly evident in season 6
posted by MattD at 5:27 PM on May 21
To echo Stephen King's thoughts, adaptations come and adaptations go, but the original is untouched by them and sits on your bookshelf.
I thought this was Raymond Chandler, Google says it was James M Cain. Writers say it a LOT.
Ironically his reaction to the Kubrick Shining makes King one of the least chill people about this ever. On the other hand he has his dollar babies which he’s not precious about.
posted by Artw at 5:49 PM on May 21 [1 favorite]
I thought this was Raymond Chandler, Google says it was James M Cain. Writers say it a LOT.
Ironically his reaction to the Kubrick Shining makes King one of the least chill people about this ever. On the other hand he has his dollar babies which he’s not precious about.
posted by Artw at 5:49 PM on May 21 [1 favorite]
Incidentally, so far, Foundation has kind of been filling the GoT-shaped hole in my heart, with a vast, sweeping epic across various locales, with political intrigue, gorgeous cinematography, and also it's occasionally a little stupid (though the second season has a lot less "a little stupid" overall). Looking forward to the third season, eventually.
posted by DoctorFedora at 5:58 PM on May 21 [1 favorite]
posted by DoctorFedora at 5:58 PM on May 21 [1 favorite]
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curious to see what the industry types are saying, i'm off to RTFA.
posted by LegallyBread at 6:30 PM on May 19 [6 favorites]