"It is a recognition that neoliberalism failed to deliver."
May 20, 2024 4:31 AM Subscribe
A New Centrism is Rising in Washington (NYT gift)
"It may be the most discussed fact about American politics today: The country is deeply polarized. The Republican Party has moved to the right by many measures, and the Democratic Party has moved to the left. "
And ... closing that browser tab. Where does the NYT grow these idiots? A right-wing militia will be fitting a noose over their necks and these writers still be trying to find a way to both sides the issue.
posted by Balna Watya at 5:02 AM on May 20 [138 favorites]
And ... closing that browser tab. Where does the NYT grow these idiots? A right-wing militia will be fitting a noose over their necks and these writers still be trying to find a way to both sides the issue.
posted by Balna Watya at 5:02 AM on May 20 [138 favorites]
we've done it folks. we have achieved Peak NYT Equivocation
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 5:06 AM on May 20 [43 favorites]
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 5:06 AM on May 20 [43 favorites]
Beltway blob will blob.
posted by lordrunningclam at 5:08 AM on May 20
posted by lordrunningclam at 5:08 AM on May 20
Less glibly, the analysis here rests on the premise that the parties are agreeing with each other on key issues more and more on account of some meeting-in-the-middle, recognition of common interests, and a desire to rise above partisanship, which, bluntly, is wildly naive. anyone who isn't a beltway pundit and has actual stakes in policy sees how right wing extremists within congress are pulling the legislature to the right through sheer attrition and a SCOTUS that seems to determined to accommodate them. i just can't with these people. politics is like fantasy football to them with no real lives on the line.
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 5:16 AM on May 20 [44 favorites]
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 5:16 AM on May 20 [44 favorites]
The best news from the article is that Susan Collins is no longer concerned.
posted by clawsoon at 5:17 AM on May 20 [12 favorites]
posted by clawsoon at 5:17 AM on May 20 [12 favorites]
I really hope that at some point the pro-Zionist folks realize what a terrible mistake they made.
Forcing people to choose between being "Anti-Hamas" or "Anti-Genocide" is not going to end well.
I'd rather just be Anti-Genocide AND anti-Hamas, thanks.
Also I threw away my Fetterman hoodie.
posted by constraint at 5:17 AM on May 20 [29 favorites]
Forcing people to choose between being "Anti-Hamas" or "Anti-Genocide" is not going to end well.
I'd rather just be Anti-Genocide AND anti-Hamas, thanks.
Also I threw away my Fetterman hoodie.
posted by constraint at 5:17 AM on May 20 [29 favorites]
NYT Pitchbot couldn't have done better:
It can be difficult to think of Trump as a centrist because of his outlandish comments and far-right views on some subjects. Yet he did move his party toward the middle on several big economic issues.posted by clawsoon at 5:21 AM on May 20 [32 favorites]
No politics is like football in Peanuts where politicians pull the ball of "sensible policy" away from voters again and again, and yet what choice do we have but to take a kick at it?
Also an NYT gift link is like a paper bag full of shit, afire, on the doorstep, and posting NYT is like ringing the doorbell. Can we not? I just wonder.
posted by seanmpuckett at 5:25 AM on May 20 [15 favorites]
Also an NYT gift link is like a paper bag full of shit, afire, on the doorstep, and posting NYT is like ringing the doorbell. Can we not? I just wonder.
posted by seanmpuckett at 5:25 AM on May 20 [15 favorites]
The NYT is a terrible "newspaper".
posted by elmono at 5:36 AM on May 20 [4 favorites]
posted by elmono at 5:36 AM on May 20 [4 favorites]
"It may be the most discussed fact about American politics today: The country is deeply polarized. The Republican Party has moved to the right by many measures, and the Democratic Party has moved to the left."
This is... um. I mean, this is just... erm. How can they even?
This article is pretty much the intellectual equivalent of Trump looking out of the window one January and saying, "How can people say there's global warming? IT'S SNOWING." Fuck the NYT, really.
posted by onebuttonmonkey at 6:03 AM on May 20 [19 favorites]
This is... um. I mean, this is just... erm. How can they even?
This article is pretty much the intellectual equivalent of Trump looking out of the window one January and saying, "How can people say there's global warming? IT'S SNOWING." Fuck the NYT, really.
posted by onebuttonmonkey at 6:03 AM on May 20 [19 favorites]
Alternate headline: The Biden Administration's policy agenda is so popular and reasonable and the GOP alternatives so entirely absent that some Republicans have been forced to support elements of it, allowing Dems to push through some good policy. Democrats in the House have been pragmatic about achieving what they can and strategically compromising or backing Republicans.
(Does this elide my criticisms of the Biden administration? Sure, but if the NYT can do it so can I!)
posted by Wretch729 at 6:11 AM on May 20 [47 favorites]
(Does this elide my criticisms of the Biden administration? Sure, but if the NYT can do it so can I!)
posted by Wretch729 at 6:11 AM on May 20 [47 favorites]
A New Centrism is Rising in Washington
Is it dressed up fascism?
The notion that the old approach would bring prosperity, as Jake Sullivan, Biden’s national security adviser, has said, “was a promise made but not kept.” In its place has risen a new worldview. Call it neopopulism.
Yes I think this is very much “The New York Times gets hard when Democrats concede to fashy shit”.
The story is different on social and cultural issues. Americans lean right on many of those issues, polls show (albeit not as far right as the Republican Party has moved on abortion).
There we go.
posted by Artw at 6:44 AM on May 20 [9 favorites]
Is it dressed up fascism?
The notion that the old approach would bring prosperity, as Jake Sullivan, Biden’s national security adviser, has said, “was a promise made but not kept.” In its place has risen a new worldview. Call it neopopulism.
Yes I think this is very much “The New York Times gets hard when Democrats concede to fashy shit”.
The story is different on social and cultural issues. Americans lean right on many of those issues, polls show (albeit not as far right as the Republican Party has moved on abortion).
There we go.
posted by Artw at 6:44 AM on May 20 [9 favorites]
centrist dipshits got us where we are. fuck centrism.
posted by j_curiouser at 7:01 AM on May 20 [19 favorites]
posted by j_curiouser at 7:01 AM on May 20 [19 favorites]
But it’s NEW centrism. This time it has economic protectionism with an emphasis on anti-immigration! All you need to do is help fight the woke.
posted by Artw at 7:21 AM on May 20 [18 favorites]
posted by Artw at 7:21 AM on May 20 [18 favorites]
Most voters, especially working-class voters, feel differently. The soaring level of immigration during Biden’s presidency, much of it illegal, has become a political liability
Most voters didn't feel differently when it was Trump's Muslim ban, and I know for lo, I was at an airport with a huge crowd of randos.
But the reason that people feel so strongly about immigration is because the media beat the drum. "Should we be worried about immigration? Lots of people are worried about immigration. Here are some interviews with people who will later prove to be GOP operatives but we didn't print that part and they are worried about immigration. Here are some stories about immigrants who commit crime, even though immigrants commit less crime than citizens. Here are some positive stories about the dapper far right - now how do you feel about immigration?"
If we'd had four years of positive even if banal stories about how immigration is bringing us working-age taxpayers, delicious new foods and the opportunity for upper middle class kids to do language immersion, immigration would not be a political liability. It's a political liability because the useful idiots and fascists in the mainstream media make it so.
You could write a fucking book about how good post-1990 immigration has been for Minnesota. Immigration, international students, international medical services - all a huge boon and one reason why we're the comparatively rich, well-governed upper midwestern state in a group of otherwise sinking red states.
posted by Frowner at 7:22 AM on May 20 [86 favorites]
Most voters didn't feel differently when it was Trump's Muslim ban, and I know for lo, I was at an airport with a huge crowd of randos.
But the reason that people feel so strongly about immigration is because the media beat the drum. "Should we be worried about immigration? Lots of people are worried about immigration. Here are some interviews with people who will later prove to be GOP operatives but we didn't print that part and they are worried about immigration. Here are some stories about immigrants who commit crime, even though immigrants commit less crime than citizens. Here are some positive stories about the dapper far right - now how do you feel about immigration?"
If we'd had four years of positive even if banal stories about how immigration is bringing us working-age taxpayers, delicious new foods and the opportunity for upper middle class kids to do language immersion, immigration would not be a political liability. It's a political liability because the useful idiots and fascists in the mainstream media make it so.
You could write a fucking book about how good post-1990 immigration has been for Minnesota. Immigration, international students, international medical services - all a huge boon and one reason why we're the comparatively rich, well-governed upper midwestern state in a group of otherwise sinking red states.
posted by Frowner at 7:22 AM on May 20 [86 favorites]
Also an NYT gift link is like a paper bag full of shit, afire, on the doorstep, and posting NYT is like ringing the doorbell. Can we not? I just wonder.
Can we have a whitelist of news sources where posted articles are allowed to come from?
posted by Selena777 at 7:28 AM on May 20 [12 favorites]
Can we have a whitelist of news sources where posted articles are allowed to come from?
posted by Selena777 at 7:28 AM on May 20 [12 favorites]
A New Centrism is Rising in Washington. Here's Why that's Bad News for Joe Biden.
posted by credulous at 7:31 AM on May 20 [9 favorites]
posted by credulous at 7:31 AM on May 20 [9 favorites]
Fetterman was always a jorts-wearing shitposter. He got elected because his opponent was goddamn Dr. Oz. I don't like Fetterman, but I'm less unhappy with him than I would have been if Oz had gotten elected. It is definitely a sad trombone that he (Fetterman) hasn't taken a more empathetic tone towards critics in his own party, but it is also not surprising. He won the primary against Conor Lamb because Lamb was seen as "establishment" and Fetterman was rAdIcAl. Those jorts-and-hoodie-wearing and shitposting ways worked in his favor at the time. But it also resulted in people applying magical thinking to how he would act once elected. See also: Obama.
Do I regret voting for him in the primary? Kind of. I'm not sure Lamb would have beaten Oz, though. The only way to win that election was to be the Biggest And Loudest. Not a great state of affairs.
posted by grumpybear69 at 7:44 AM on May 20 [7 favorites]
Do I regret voting for him in the primary? Kind of. I'm not sure Lamb would have beaten Oz, though. The only way to win that election was to be the Biggest And Loudest. Not a great state of affairs.
posted by grumpybear69 at 7:44 AM on May 20 [7 favorites]
In other news, the nieghborhood association demanded my neighbor and I replace the fence between us. I suggested the next door neighbor should split the cost. He said he should only pay 10%, so I found a new centrist position that he should pay 20%. Double the original offer. he agreed! As long as he gets to choose the materials and use his brother as the contractor.
I'm winning now. See?
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:50 AM on May 20 [36 favorites]
I'm winning now. See?
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:50 AM on May 20 [36 favorites]
I'm absolutely floored by the seeming naivete of this article. it has to be a put-on, David Leonhardt is not a dumb guy.
It seems to me like we're witnessing those who rode the neoliberal wave to power (Clinton-era democrats and republican beltway insiders) are now seeing that framework crumble and searching for a new status quo that keeps them at the center of power.
it's telling that the "bipartisanship" examples are things like the tiktok & israel aid votes or the new tariffs on Chinese goods (the other examples like the Respect for Marriage Act are cherry-picked and barely bipartisan, IMO). The passage of these protectionist policies is a direct refutation of the globalism espoused by the neoliberal order. But Leonhardt doesn't complete the analysis -- these things are finding support not just because they protect failing domestic industries (automotive, media, defense) but because those industries are in turn the things that bolster the the global hegemonic supremacy of the US.
So globalism was the best choice for projecting this power in the 90s when there was no strong geopolitical or industrial force to oppose our supremacy. We could shift production overseas, export action movies, carry out colonial wars, etc and these actions would benefit the domestic power structure by shifting money and power to them in spades. But as domestic instability, inequality, and inefficiency have weakened our capability to project this power through products, content, and war, a new framework becomes necessary: hence, protectionism.
and the "bipartisan centrist" is the class most likely to benefit from a new status-quo of isolationist protectionism.
but nothing about this undoes the real economic, cultural, and social issues facing the vast majority of Americans across the political spectrum -- domestic unrest has been accelerating unpredictaly since at least the tea party and occupy moments of 2009-2010.
and since that's also a threat to the establishment of a new political status quo, it has to be crushed ruthlessly (like we're seeing now with the college protests), which is why I think we're lurching towards fascism irrespective of who gets elected in November. The only difference seems to be how quickly the boot will stomp on our particular faces...
posted by turbowombat at 7:53 AM on May 20 [23 favorites]
It seems to me like we're witnessing those who rode the neoliberal wave to power (Clinton-era democrats and republican beltway insiders) are now seeing that framework crumble and searching for a new status quo that keeps them at the center of power.
it's telling that the "bipartisanship" examples are things like the tiktok & israel aid votes or the new tariffs on Chinese goods (the other examples like the Respect for Marriage Act are cherry-picked and barely bipartisan, IMO). The passage of these protectionist policies is a direct refutation of the globalism espoused by the neoliberal order. But Leonhardt doesn't complete the analysis -- these things are finding support not just because they protect failing domestic industries (automotive, media, defense) but because those industries are in turn the things that bolster the the global hegemonic supremacy of the US.
So globalism was the best choice for projecting this power in the 90s when there was no strong geopolitical or industrial force to oppose our supremacy. We could shift production overseas, export action movies, carry out colonial wars, etc and these actions would benefit the domestic power structure by shifting money and power to them in spades. But as domestic instability, inequality, and inefficiency have weakened our capability to project this power through products, content, and war, a new framework becomes necessary: hence, protectionism.
and the "bipartisan centrist" is the class most likely to benefit from a new status-quo of isolationist protectionism.
but nothing about this undoes the real economic, cultural, and social issues facing the vast majority of Americans across the political spectrum -- domestic unrest has been accelerating unpredictaly since at least the tea party and occupy moments of 2009-2010.
and since that's also a threat to the establishment of a new political status quo, it has to be crushed ruthlessly (like we're seeing now with the college protests), which is why I think we're lurching towards fascism irrespective of who gets elected in November. The only difference seems to be how quickly the boot will stomp on our particular faces...
posted by turbowombat at 7:53 AM on May 20 [23 favorites]
on review: what j_curiouser said.
posted by turbowombat at 7:54 AM on May 20 [1 favorite]
posted by turbowombat at 7:54 AM on May 20 [1 favorite]
I guess I shouldn't be surprised that the Times is out here beating the drum and manufacturing consent for our coming fascist order but it's Monday morning and I'm not really awake yet.
posted by turbowombat at 7:56 AM on May 20 [10 favorites]
posted by turbowombat at 7:56 AM on May 20 [10 favorites]
I'm absolutely floored by the seeming naivete of this article. it has to be a put-on, David Leonhardt is not a dumb guy.
He was a major and influential advocate of doing as little about COVID-19 as possible. He is absolutely a dumb guy.
posted by Pope Guilty at 8:01 AM on May 20 [41 favorites]
He was a major and influential advocate of doing as little about COVID-19 as possible. He is absolutely a dumb guy.
posted by Pope Guilty at 8:01 AM on May 20 [41 favorites]
He certainly plays one in the media, yes -- to his great profit.
posted by turbowombat at 8:02 AM on May 20 [4 favorites]
posted by turbowombat at 8:02 AM on May 20 [4 favorites]
The powerful agree: exploitation at home and genocide abroad
posted by Artw at 8:05 AM on May 20 [9 favorites]
posted by Artw at 8:05 AM on May 20 [9 favorites]
If you move the goalpost 50 yards to the right, where is the center?
posted by zerobyproxy at 8:30 AM on May 20 [5 favorites]
posted by zerobyproxy at 8:30 AM on May 20 [5 favorites]
A defining quality of the new centrism is how much it differs from the centrism that guided Washington in the roughly quarter-century after the end of the Cold War, starting in the 1990s. That centrism — alternately called the Washington Consensus or neoliberalism — was based on the idea that market economics had triumphed.
The new centrism is a response to these developments. It is a recognition that neoliberalism failed to deliver. The notion that the old approach would bring prosperity, as Jake Sullivan, Biden’s national security adviser, has said, “was a promise made but not kept.” In its place has risen a new worldview. Call it neopopulism.
Why not just call them neoliberalism and neopopulism? Why refer to each one as a "centrism" even when they're functionally different things? Maybe they're both centrist in nature, but why introduce the ambiguity and goofy framing of "old" centrism versus "new" centrism?
posted by RonButNotStupid at 8:37 AM on May 20 [4 favorites]
The new centrism is a response to these developments. It is a recognition that neoliberalism failed to deliver. The notion that the old approach would bring prosperity, as Jake Sullivan, Biden’s national security adviser, has said, “was a promise made but not kept.” In its place has risen a new worldview. Call it neopopulism.
Why not just call them neoliberalism and neopopulism? Why refer to each one as a "centrism" even when they're functionally different things? Maybe they're both centrist in nature, but why introduce the ambiguity and goofy framing of "old" centrism versus "new" centrism?
posted by RonButNotStupid at 8:37 AM on May 20 [4 favorites]
Well you see "centrism" is good, that's why. If it's centrist to give a billion dollars to American arms manufacturers and the IDF, how can that be wrong?
posted by Frowner at 8:41 AM on May 20 [16 favorites]
posted by Frowner at 8:41 AM on May 20 [16 favorites]
“Bipartisan”
posted by Artw at 8:43 AM on May 20 [4 favorites]
posted by Artw at 8:43 AM on May 20 [4 favorites]
I held my nose and read the article and came away with this: the author is desperately hoping that he be known as the person who coined the term neopopulism. It's a nonsense term that he made up to describe the desperate bipartisan moves to thwart the loonies on the far right who want no speaker of the house and want our support of Ukraine to fail. It won't apply if Trump is elected, but it conveniently cherry picks Trumps out-of-nowhere "policies" that might not line up with Moscow Mitch's version of the GOP. It doesn't describe any democrats who are simply trying to pass legislation under their president, a known fan of bipartisanship.
posted by OHenryPacey at 8:45 AM on May 20 [12 favorites]
posted by OHenryPacey at 8:45 AM on May 20 [12 favorites]
But it’s NEW centrism. This time it has economic protectionism with an emphasis on anti-immigration! All you need to do is help fight the woke.
And it's also furrowed-brow fiscal "centrism" - with heightened concern that we can't keep funding climate-change mitigation, or endless streams of refugees, or over-taxing our wealth-generating citizens and industries. /s
It's not just the US. In response to several pressure-points - COVID, wars, trade-imbalances, immigration and/or refugee crises - populism and protectionism is rising in a number of places. Canada is going to get a big dose of that after the next federal election.
posted by Artful Codger at 9:00 AM on May 20 [8 favorites]
And it's also furrowed-brow fiscal "centrism" - with heightened concern that we can't keep funding climate-change mitigation, or endless streams of refugees, or over-taxing our wealth-generating citizens and industries. /s
It's not just the US. In response to several pressure-points - COVID, wars, trade-imbalances, immigration and/or refugee crises - populism and protectionism is rising in a number of places. Canada is going to get a big dose of that after the next federal election.
posted by Artful Codger at 9:00 AM on May 20 [8 favorites]
The Republican Party has moved to the right by many measures, and the Democratic Party has moved to the left.
LOL what? I have no time for this kind of alternate history fiction. The Democratic Party has been moving right my whole life, it's really irritating.
posted by GoblinHoney at 9:07 AM on May 20 [45 favorites]
LOL what? I have no time for this kind of alternate history fiction. The Democratic Party has been moving right my whole life, it's really irritating.
posted by GoblinHoney at 9:07 AM on May 20 [45 favorites]
politics is like fantasy football to them with no real lives on the line
On the nose.
“There, there, my dear NYT readers, it will all be alright. Don’t worry about fascism and climate change; those are for poor people, who are not real. Regardless, your cocktail parties will continue.”
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 9:10 AM on May 20 [10 favorites]
On the nose.
“There, there, my dear NYT readers, it will all be alright. Don’t worry about fascism and climate change; those are for poor people, who are not real. Regardless, your cocktail parties will continue.”
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 9:10 AM on May 20 [10 favorites]
> The Democratic Party has been moving right my whole life, it's really irritating.
Oh, but you see, they're not moving right as fast as the right is moving right, and so from the perspective of someone triangulating into the center, they're moving left /s
posted by I-Write-Essays at 9:14 AM on May 20 [37 favorites]
Oh, but you see, they're not moving right as fast as the right is moving right, and so from the perspective of someone triangulating into the center, they're moving left /s
posted by I-Write-Essays at 9:14 AM on May 20 [37 favorites]
Military industrial complex spending is typically bipartisan, including specifically military aid to Israel. Those don't evince any trend, just business as usual.
The soaring level of immigration during Biden’s presidency, much of it illegal, has become a political liability, and it nearly led to another piece of neopopulist legislation this year.
The numbers don't indicate any soaring. Just keeping pace with the previous administration.
posted by Hume at 9:18 AM on May 20 [12 favorites]
The soaring level of immigration during Biden’s presidency, much of it illegal, has become a political liability, and it nearly led to another piece of neopopulist legislation this year.
The numbers don't indicate any soaring. Just keeping pace with the previous administration.
posted by Hume at 9:18 AM on May 20 [12 favorites]
It’s like crime, more of a vibes thing than a numbers thing, and under democrats the vibes are always bad.
posted by Artw at 9:25 AM on May 20 [23 favorites]
posted by Artw at 9:25 AM on May 20 [23 favorites]
It's really important to not give Joe Biden the credit for any of the legislation that's passed recently, and to chalk it all down to changing trends in Washington. While also admitting that probably under Trump those same trends would no longer apply.
posted by subdee at 9:46 AM on May 20 [16 favorites]
posted by subdee at 9:46 AM on May 20 [16 favorites]
The article gave me a good laugh and I appreciated the skewering it received here. Thanks for posting.
posted by dmh at 9:49 AM on May 20 [4 favorites]
posted by dmh at 9:49 AM on May 20 [4 favorites]
Well, the article is kinda right that neoliberalism has become a political liability.
The difference is that the Democratic Party is sort of trying to be more redistributive and/or fund government more so it works better (see the IRS.)
The Republican Party hasn't changed their actual economic goals; they've just blamed inflation on trans people.
posted by rhymedirective at 9:56 AM on May 20 [11 favorites]
The difference is that the Democratic Party is sort of trying to be more redistributive and/or fund government more so it works better (see the IRS.)
The Republican Party hasn't changed their actual economic goals; they've just blamed inflation on trans people.
posted by rhymedirective at 9:56 AM on May 20 [11 favorites]
> I really hope that at some point the pro-Zionist folks realize what a terrible mistake they made.
Forcing people to choose between being "Anti-Hamas" or "Anti-Genocide" is not going to end well.
yeah really looking forward to the future where all of those people are like "no one knew there was a genocide happening!" and we'll be all "uh, we knew, that's why we were protesting" and they'll all pretend not to hear us because after all saying that sort of thing is a terrible faux pas
also looking forward to the future where everyone who was prematurely anti-genocide gets politically marginalized
super fun futures ahead i guess is what i'm saying
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 9:57 AM on May 20 [22 favorites]
Forcing people to choose between being "Anti-Hamas" or "Anti-Genocide" is not going to end well.
yeah really looking forward to the future where all of those people are like "no one knew there was a genocide happening!" and we'll be all "uh, we knew, that's why we were protesting" and they'll all pretend not to hear us because after all saying that sort of thing is a terrible faux pas
also looking forward to the future where everyone who was prematurely anti-genocide gets politically marginalized
super fun futures ahead i guess is what i'm saying
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 9:57 AM on May 20 [22 favorites]
And ... closing that browser tab.
I did the exact same thing. Well done, NYT. I only had to read 3 (2?) sentences before I knew your article was a piece of shit.
posted by nushustu at 10:14 AM on May 20 [3 favorites]
I did the exact same thing. Well done, NYT. I only had to read 3 (2?) sentences before I knew your article was a piece of shit.
posted by nushustu at 10:14 AM on May 20 [3 favorites]
Neopopulism == Paleoracism
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 10:22 AM on May 20 [13 favorites]
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 10:22 AM on May 20 [13 favorites]
I know I should just comment on the article itself, but honestly I could only get a few paragraphs in before I closed it. I'm surprisingly not sure which I hate more, Trump or the NYT. I think it might be the NYT. The harm it is doing right now is staggering and much more vast than anything Trump currently does (although once in power again, thanks to the NYT et al, the Golden Toilet will end democracy in the US and cause the kind of horrors that a deranged 'vengeance is mine' sociopath will allow his psychotic minions to enact).
Maybe ONE fucking article about, say, how Trump stole nuclear secrets and gave or sold them to KSA and the IDF. If Biden had done that, the drum beat of 'Guantanamo or Finding Squad' from the NYT would be deafening.
Before democracy and a 'free' press goes, I'd like to know once and for all, what actually drives this shit from the NYT: are they fellow travelers; clicks ($$$) are everything; or just plain stunningly naive in thinking that it cant happen to them?
Balna Watya said it best above, and the Schadenfruede will be so high after they waltz us into this nightmare: , "NYT Last Special Editorial, Now that the hangings have begun, why we stand by our position" as their last EIC yells from the gallows, "BOTH SIDES FOREVER!"
I wish the NYT would just die already....
posted by WatTylerJr at 10:23 AM on May 20 [9 favorites]
Maybe ONE fucking article about, say, how Trump stole nuclear secrets and gave or sold them to KSA and the IDF. If Biden had done that, the drum beat of 'Guantanamo or Finding Squad' from the NYT would be deafening.
Before democracy and a 'free' press goes, I'd like to know once and for all, what actually drives this shit from the NYT: are they fellow travelers; clicks ($$$) are everything; or just plain stunningly naive in thinking that it cant happen to them?
Balna Watya said it best above, and the Schadenfruede will be so high after they waltz us into this nightmare: , "NYT Last Special Editorial, Now that the hangings have begun, why we stand by our position" as their last EIC yells from the gallows, "BOTH SIDES FOREVER!"
I wish the NYT would just die already....
posted by WatTylerJr at 10:23 AM on May 20 [9 favorites]
"Whether it's Donald Trump gleefully watching as the firing squad lines me and my few remaining editors up against the wall or Joe Biden refusing to give me an interview so I can continue undermining his campaign and American democracy with pointless insinuations about his mental wellness, both sides have failed to uphold journalistic norms."
- By AG Sulzberger
posted by Method Man at 10:35 AM on May 20 [19 favorites]
- By AG Sulzberger
posted by Method Man at 10:35 AM on May 20 [19 favorites]
KOSA, the absolute worst price of bipartisan dogshit, hasn’t even passed yet. They’ll totally be spaffing it for that.
posted by Artw at 10:35 AM on May 20 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 10:35 AM on May 20 [1 favorite]
I'd like to know once and for all, what actually drives this shit from the NYT: are they fellow travelers; clicks ($$$) are everything; or just plain stunningly naive in thinking that it cant happen to them?
Some of each. Controversy sells papers, so they have a vested interest in creating controversy if there's not enough already. And while Sulzberger definitely has a grudge against Biden in particular, they clearly had a grudge against Hillary Clinton before him. And I think newspapers in general have been chasing "balance" for so long, that it only took a little bit of conservative criticism to force their hiring practices into a spot where the editors and headline writers are all incentivized to keep everything in whatever "the middle" is, even as conservatism keeps pushing the middle towards the right. I can't not see the "some X, others Y" headline format now, and it drives me insane.
I've also always gotten the vibe from Leonhardt in particular that he thinks he's always the smartest guy in every room he's in, so he's not one to hear or process criticism from anybody else. He especially won't hear criticism from anybody to his left, because they can't possibly have thought about things as much as he has.
(I didn't even open the article after seeing its headline, so I only found out it was Leonhardt from this thread. Still not going to bother to read it now.)
posted by fedward at 10:48 AM on May 20 [8 favorites]
Some of each. Controversy sells papers, so they have a vested interest in creating controversy if there's not enough already. And while Sulzberger definitely has a grudge against Biden in particular, they clearly had a grudge against Hillary Clinton before him. And I think newspapers in general have been chasing "balance" for so long, that it only took a little bit of conservative criticism to force their hiring practices into a spot where the editors and headline writers are all incentivized to keep everything in whatever "the middle" is, even as conservatism keeps pushing the middle towards the right. I can't not see the "some X, others Y" headline format now, and it drives me insane.
I've also always gotten the vibe from Leonhardt in particular that he thinks he's always the smartest guy in every room he's in, so he's not one to hear or process criticism from anybody else. He especially won't hear criticism from anybody to his left, because they can't possibly have thought about things as much as he has.
(I didn't even open the article after seeing its headline, so I only found out it was Leonhardt from this thread. Still not going to bother to read it now.)
posted by fedward at 10:48 AM on May 20 [8 favorites]
As a counterpoint he hangs out with Ross Douthat, who is worse and dumber.
posted by Artw at 10:51 AM on May 20 [9 favorites]
posted by Artw at 10:51 AM on May 20 [9 favorites]
The latest estimates from the CBO do show that immigration was historically high for 2022 and 2023. Republicans are going to hammer on this pretty hard. (with the help of the NYT, of course)
posted by ropeladder at 11:01 AM on May 20 [3 favorites]
posted by ropeladder at 11:01 AM on May 20 [3 favorites]
If you move the goalpost 50 yards to the right, where is the center?
Technically, it be exactly in the same place. Though you'd probably want a lefty kicker.
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 11:20 AM on May 20
Technically, it be exactly in the same place. Though you'd probably want a lefty kicker.
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 11:20 AM on May 20
Can we have a whitelist of news sources where posted articles are allowed to come from?
"I think that guy sucks!"
"Can you give me a list of all the guys who don't suck?"
posted by axiom at 11:50 AM on May 20 [4 favorites]
"I think that guy sucks!"
"Can you give me a list of all the guys who don't suck?"
posted by axiom at 11:50 AM on May 20 [4 favorites]
Metafilter: a list of all the guys who don't suck
posted by Saxon Kane at 11:58 AM on May 20 [5 favorites]
posted by Saxon Kane at 11:58 AM on May 20 [5 favorites]
There’s this duck that likes milkshakes.
posted by Artw at 12:00 PM on May 20 [3 favorites]
posted by Artw at 12:00 PM on May 20 [3 favorites]
USA: same old military industrial carceral racist capitalist imperialist crappity crap, brand new logo!™ (Thanks NYT!)
posted by nikoniko at 12:23 PM on May 20 [5 favorites]
posted by nikoniko at 12:23 PM on May 20 [5 favorites]
Taking the Pride flag off of the B-52.
posted by Artw at 12:24 PM on May 20 [2 favorites]
posted by Artw at 12:24 PM on May 20 [2 favorites]
Wanted to push back a little on something above. It's true that the piece is stupid wrong about both sidesing the polarization issue. The GOP has moved radically to the right. But it's also not true that the Democratic party has been moving right for decades. They mostly stayed put ideologically in the 1970-2010 timeframe with a sliiiight move to the left in the past 10-12 years (which should be obvious if you compare today's Democratic party to the one under, say, Clinton).
See for instance the data from Pew:
Polarization in today’s Congress
Democrats were staticish from about 1970 to 2011 with, as I said above, a slight tick to the left since 2011 on DW-NOMINATE. On the other hand, the GOP has been consistently and relentless moving to the right since 1970 with no sign of slowing down. Their move to the right in the Senate, for instance, is almost 5x the magnitude of the slight dogleg to the left the Dems in the Senate have made.
posted by Justinian at 1:53 PM on May 20 [17 favorites]
See for instance the data from Pew:
Polarization in today’s Congress
Democrats were staticish from about 1970 to 2011 with, as I said above, a slight tick to the left since 2011 on DW-NOMINATE. On the other hand, the GOP has been consistently and relentless moving to the right since 1970 with no sign of slowing down. Their move to the right in the Senate, for instance, is almost 5x the magnitude of the slight dogleg to the left the Dems in the Senate have made.
posted by Justinian at 1:53 PM on May 20 [17 favorites]
"and these writers still be trying to find a way to both sides the issue."
posted by Balna Watya at 8:02 AM
flagged as fantastic. for example, Lucie-Simplice-'Camille'-Benoît Desmoulins.
Vive!, Le Vieux Cordelier une
La France libre
posted by clavdivs at 1:53 PM on May 20 [1 favorite]
posted by Balna Watya at 8:02 AM
flagged as fantastic. for example, Lucie-Simplice-'Camille'-Benoît Desmoulins.
Vive!, Le Vieux Cordelier une
La France libre
posted by clavdivs at 1:53 PM on May 20 [1 favorite]
I think one reason it may have felt like the Dems moved to the right is because Clinton (Bill) was a centristy Democrat in a lot of ways. And the Presidency is the face of the party. But he wasn't the Congress or the party as a whole.
posted by Justinian at 1:54 PM on May 20 [2 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 1:54 PM on May 20 [2 favorites]
Democrats were staticish from about 1970 to 2011 with, as I said above, a slight tick to the left since 2011
Wait, whut? There was a major shift to the right in the Democratic party on economic issues starting in the late 1970s with Carter's appointment of Volcker. It was turned into a movement by Democrats like Dukakis, Tsongas, and Bradley in the 1980s, reached its low point under Clinton in the 1990s, and barely moved leftward for 20 years after that.
posted by clawsoon at 2:13 PM on May 20 [6 favorites]
Wait, whut? There was a major shift to the right in the Democratic party on economic issues starting in the late 1970s with Carter's appointment of Volcker. It was turned into a movement by Democrats like Dukakis, Tsongas, and Bradley in the 1980s, reached its low point under Clinton in the 1990s, and barely moved leftward for 20 years after that.
posted by clawsoon at 2:13 PM on May 20 [6 favorites]
If you have data to contradict the Pew research, by all means I am interested in seeing it!
posted by Justinian at 2:16 PM on May 20 [1 favorite]
posted by Justinian at 2:16 PM on May 20 [1 favorite]
Wait, whut? There was a major shift to the right in the Democratic party on economic issues starting in the late 1970s with Carter's appointment of Volcker. It was turned into a movement by Democrats like Dukakis, Tsongas, and Bradley in the 1980s, reached its low point under Clinton in the 1990s,
I'd say Obama, and a shift left since. IMO Obama's biggest failure is his economic team, which was worse than even Trump and far worse than Biden's. Biden's actually been pretty great, and IMO it's his best team.
posted by The_Vegetables at 2:19 PM on May 20 [3 favorites]
I'd say Obama, and a shift left since. IMO Obama's biggest failure is his economic team, which was worse than even Trump and far worse than Biden's. Biden's actually been pretty great, and IMO it's his best team.
posted by The_Vegetables at 2:19 PM on May 20 [3 favorites]
If you have data to contradict the Pew research, by all means I am interested in seeing it!
I'm looking to see how Pew is defining "left" and "right", and so far I have reached the about page and books Spatial Models of Parliamentary Voting and Ideology and Congress: A Political Economic History of Roll Call Voting. They say:
posted by clawsoon at 2:36 PM on May 20 [1 favorite]
I'm looking to see how Pew is defining "left" and "right", and so far I have reached the about page and books Spatial Models of Parliamentary Voting and Ideology and Congress: A Political Economic History of Roll Call Voting. They say:
This procedure was developed by Poole and Rosenthal in the 1980s and is a "scaling procedure", representing legislators on a spatial map. In this sense, a spatial map is much like a road map--the closeness of two legislators on the map shows how similar their voting records are. Using this measure of distance, DW-NOMINATE is able to recover the "dimensions" that inform congressional voting behavior.What I'm interested in knowing with a model like this is how (or if they can) detect everybody shifting their opinions at the same time. This simple description seems like it wouldn't be able to do that, but they might have more complex mechanisms to try to capture that. You'd have to somehow take into account that legislators can change over time, rather than representing each legislator as a single point, and you'd have to somehow have a non-moving background to measure their movement against. Perhaps they have techniques to do both of those things.
posted by clawsoon at 2:36 PM on May 20 [1 favorite]
Fair enough, it's mostly an aside to the topic at hand anyway which is that, regardless, the NYT's framing is incredibly wrongheaded.
posted by Justinian at 2:51 PM on May 20 [2 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 2:51 PM on May 20 [2 favorites]
MDS plots and analysis are extremely sensitive to parameters. It s a relativistic bowl of spaghetti. If 1970 is not in the sample data, you cannot comment on how democrats are doing now vs 1970.
posted by eustatic at 2:56 PM on May 20 [1 favorite]
posted by eustatic at 2:56 PM on May 20 [1 favorite]
dw-nominate actually does let legislators move their ideal points, but only with a linear trend. I don't know whether that's enabled for the data pew are using.
AFAIK nominate (or other scaling methods like ideal or even more standard item-response models) would not be able to detect it if everyone was shifting as you describe. But to avoid detection it would have to be EVERYONE everyone, and it would have to be in the same amounts at the same time. If even one person wasn't moving to the right as I imagine you mean, you'd either see that legislator moving strongly to the left or everyone else marching off to the right, depending I expect on whichever optimized better.
There are other ideal-point estimators if you don't like vote-based ones. Adam Bonica's are based on campaign donations and IIRC show the same pattern as nominate scores.
It s a relativistic bowl of spaghetti. If 1970 is not in the sample data, you cannot comment on how democrats are doing now vs 1970.
dwnominate runs back to 1789.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 3:01 PM on May 20 [3 favorites]
AFAIK nominate (or other scaling methods like ideal or even more standard item-response models) would not be able to detect it if everyone was shifting as you describe. But to avoid detection it would have to be EVERYONE everyone, and it would have to be in the same amounts at the same time. If even one person wasn't moving to the right as I imagine you mean, you'd either see that legislator moving strongly to the left or everyone else marching off to the right, depending I expect on whichever optimized better.
There are other ideal-point estimators if you don't like vote-based ones. Adam Bonica's are based on campaign donations and IIRC show the same pattern as nominate scores.
It s a relativistic bowl of spaghetti. If 1970 is not in the sample data, you cannot comment on how democrats are doing now vs 1970.
dwnominate runs back to 1789.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 3:01 PM on May 20 [3 favorites]
No NYT editors are ever getting lined up against the wall. They will be, as ever, handmaids to establishment power as they see it. For the moment, "establishment power as they see it" is rich liberals. If it becomes rich conservatives, there the NYT will be. If it becomes Trump-loving Evangelical populists, same.
posted by MattD at 3:18 PM on May 20 [1 favorite]
posted by MattD at 3:18 PM on May 20 [1 favorite]
politics is like fantasy football to them with no real lives on the line.
That's exactly how I felt watching the live election night coverage on 538 during the last Biden/Trump go-around. On the one hand my anxiety was through the roof, I was desperate for info and I felt like those people were probably closer to calling the race than any of the other pundits... but on the other hand their amused, detached tone made me want to shriek. "Democracy is at stake, so stop telling me how 'interesting' these results are while you munch your popcorn, you sick fucks!"
posted by Ursula Hitler at 3:23 PM on May 20 [10 favorites]
That's exactly how I felt watching the live election night coverage on 538 during the last Biden/Trump go-around. On the one hand my anxiety was through the roof, I was desperate for info and I felt like those people were probably closer to calling the race than any of the other pundits... but on the other hand their amused, detached tone made me want to shriek. "Democracy is at stake, so stop telling me how 'interesting' these results are while you munch your popcorn, you sick fucks!"
posted by Ursula Hitler at 3:23 PM on May 20 [10 favorites]
i just can't with these people. politics is like fantasy football to them with no real lives on the line.
After years as an NYT reader and subscriber, this article finally pushed me to cancel:
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/02/opinion/trump-trial-2024-election.html
The powers that be there definitely think they’re safe and have no skin in the game.
But to be honest, in a gradually growing way, I felt like it was making me stupider to read it then just to not pay attention for a number of years now.
posted by ryanshepard at 4:01 PM on May 20 [4 favorites]
After years as an NYT reader and subscriber, this article finally pushed me to cancel:
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/02/opinion/trump-trial-2024-election.html
The powers that be there definitely think they’re safe and have no skin in the game.
But to be honest, in a gradually growing way, I felt like it was making me stupider to read it then just to not pay attention for a number of years now.
posted by ryanshepard at 4:01 PM on May 20 [4 favorites]
GoblinHoney
The Democratic Party has been moving right ..(
I can't find article at moment, but John Key (yes that one) the (Right wing) NZ Prime Minister before Jacinda Ardern, was surprised to be told by Obama that the Democrats were further to the right than Key's own NZ National Party.
Sadly that is no longer the case as PM Luxon is a deSantis or Ted Cruz lite but still a hateful racist fundamentalist.
posted by unearthed at 4:21 PM on May 20 [2 favorites]
The Democratic Party has been moving right ..(
I can't find article at moment, but John Key (yes that one) the (Right wing) NZ Prime Minister before Jacinda Ardern, was surprised to be told by Obama that the Democrats were further to the right than Key's own NZ National Party.
Sadly that is no longer the case as PM Luxon is a deSantis or Ted Cruz lite but still a hateful racist fundamentalist.
posted by unearthed at 4:21 PM on May 20 [2 favorites]
>The Republican Party has moved to the right by many measures, and the Democratic Party has moved to the left.
Identifies itself as bothsidesy bullshit by sentence number two. I appreciate their economical use of my time.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 4:41 PM on May 20 [2 favorites]
Identifies itself as bothsidesy bullshit by sentence number two. I appreciate their economical use of my time.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 4:41 PM on May 20 [2 favorites]
I can't find article at moment, but John Key (yes that one) the (Right wing) NZ Prime Minister before Jacinda Ardern, was surprised to be told by Obama that the Democrats were further to the right than Key's own NZ National Party.
Reminds me of the Environics polling from a while back which found that the most patriarchal area of Canada (Alberta) was less patriarchal than the least patriarchal area of the US (the Northeast, IIRC). They also found that American Democrats were at basically the same point on the political compass as Canadian Conservatives.
But that, too, was a while ago.
posted by clawsoon at 4:43 PM on May 20 [2 favorites]
Reminds me of the Environics polling from a while back which found that the most patriarchal area of Canada (Alberta) was less patriarchal than the least patriarchal area of the US (the Northeast, IIRC). They also found that American Democrats were at basically the same point on the political compass as Canadian Conservatives.
But that, too, was a while ago.
posted by clawsoon at 4:43 PM on May 20 [2 favorites]
ryanshepard> The powers that be there definitely think they’re safe and have no skin in the game.
Joseph Tainter says elites being unimpacted by their mistakes predicts societal collapse. :)
posted by jeffburdges at 5:04 PM on May 20 [2 favorites]
Joseph Tainter says elites being unimpacted by their mistakes predicts societal collapse. :)
posted by jeffburdges at 5:04 PM on May 20 [2 favorites]
So if most of the right-leaning Blue Dog Democrats were wiped out, but the Democratic Party stayed in the same place ideologically, does that mean the rest of the party must've moved to the right of where they had been in order to keep the party's ideological average where it was?
posted by clawsoon at 5:11 PM on May 20 [2 favorites]
posted by clawsoon at 5:11 PM on May 20 [2 favorites]
i'll paraphrase carlin: think about how fascist and paranoid the median american lawmaker is, and then understand that half of them are even more fascist and paranoid than that
posted by jy4m at 5:23 PM on May 20 [6 favorites]
posted by jy4m at 5:23 PM on May 20 [6 favorites]
So if most of the right-leaning Blue Dog Democrats were wiped out, but the Democratic Party stayed in the same place ideologically, does that mean the rest of the party must've moved to the right of where they had been in order to keep the party's ideological average where it was?
I'm guessing it doesn't show up in the Pew stuff, but you actually do see the D median take a small but obvious hop to the left in the 104th House, and that's MOL where it's been since then (except when the D's take the House it's generally through the election of moderates, not liberals/leftists/progressives, so you see spikes towards the right).
What actually happened is the D median moved on the arbitrary* nominate scale from *looks* -0.32 to -0.34 in the runup to the 104th House to the little bit more liberal -0.34 to -0.40 since then. It's fair to casually talk about this as "being the same" even though it's really "got a tiny bit more liberal" because during the same time frame (90th-current), the House R's went monotonically from a median of 0.24 to a median of 0.50.
I'm reminded that if everyone were smoothly marching to the right, this would be also visible to nominate in the bunch of votes that are on approximately the same thing over and over, like program/agency reauthorizations.
*it's actually scaled to fit in a unit hypersphere!
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 5:55 PM on May 20 [1 favorite]
I'm guessing it doesn't show up in the Pew stuff, but you actually do see the D median take a small but obvious hop to the left in the 104th House, and that's MOL where it's been since then (except when the D's take the House it's generally through the election of moderates, not liberals/leftists/progressives, so you see spikes towards the right).
What actually happened is the D median moved on the arbitrary* nominate scale from *looks* -0.32 to -0.34 in the runup to the 104th House to the little bit more liberal -0.34 to -0.40 since then. It's fair to casually talk about this as "being the same" even though it's really "got a tiny bit more liberal" because during the same time frame (90th-current), the House R's went monotonically from a median of 0.24 to a median of 0.50.
I'm reminded that if everyone were smoothly marching to the right, this would be also visible to nominate in the bunch of votes that are on approximately the same thing over and over, like program/agency reauthorizations.
*it's actually scaled to fit in a unit hypersphere!
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 5:55 PM on May 20 [1 favorite]
I've always said it that the secret little plan of break away republicans is to steal the democratic's social agenda in their own image.
I call it whigging out. Lincoln was whig, I think Chester A. Arthur was, a few others.
well that was the past, in the not so distant past, take the speech that Franklin Roosevelt gave declaring war on the empire of Japan. the way he said war, (What) existed. past tense, an interesting speech, The vote in the house was 388-1.
Imagine Roosevelt's second biggest problem was Huey long.
posted by clavdivs at 5:57 PM on May 20 [1 favorite]
I call it whigging out. Lincoln was whig, I think Chester A. Arthur was, a few others.
well that was the past, in the not so distant past, take the speech that Franklin Roosevelt gave declaring war on the empire of Japan. the way he said war, (What) existed. past tense, an interesting speech, The vote in the house was 388-1.
Imagine Roosevelt's second biggest problem was Huey long.
posted by clavdivs at 5:57 PM on May 20 [1 favorite]
On page 11 of this PDF comparing Canadian and American values, there's more support for the idea that Democrats have drifted a little bit left economically while Republicans have gone far to the right. This is voters, not legislators, and it's based on a simple question:
% of agreement with "The government should reduce the income gap between the rich and the poor."
posted by clawsoon at 6:15 PM on May 20 [6 favorites]
% of agreement with "The government should reduce the income gap between the rich and the poor."
Republicans Democrats
1986 64% 80%
2022 34% 87%
posted by clawsoon at 6:15 PM on May 20 [6 favorites]
This is voters, not legislators
We don’t get lucky enough to get representation.
posted by Artw at 6:44 PM on May 20 [4 favorites]
We don’t get lucky enough to get representation.
posted by Artw at 6:44 PM on May 20 [4 favorites]
Oh, but you see, they're not moving right as fast as the right is moving right, and so from the perspective of someone triangulating into the center, they're moving left /s
Fittingly, the phenomenon you've described is known as red shift.
posted by Mayor West at 6:46 PM on May 20 [4 favorites]
Fittingly, the phenomenon you've described is known as red shift.
posted by Mayor West at 6:46 PM on May 20 [4 favorites]
I knew I should have said "reference frame" rather than just "perspective."
posted by I-Write-Essays at 7:26 PM on May 20 [3 favorites]
posted by I-Write-Essays at 7:26 PM on May 20 [3 favorites]
Meanwhile, the centrist candidate: Trump’s social media account shares a campaign video with a headline about a ‘unified Reich’
posted by Artw at 7:59 PM on May 20 [4 favorites]
posted by Artw at 7:59 PM on May 20 [4 favorites]
LOL what? I have no time for this kind of alternate history fiction. The Democratic Party has been moving right my whole life, it's really irritating.
This is very true, but certain aspects of the culture have moved left, or "left." Gay marriage is the law of the land, something unthinkable in, say, 1985. Cannabis legalization, Me Too, BLM, etc. are examples of the culture changing, and the lowest common denominator of cultural change in the past 100 or so years, for the most part, is leftist/liberal ideology.
That's not the same as policy as practiced by the Democratic Party, which if anything has, as you said, moved to the right on policy, not left. Democratic politicians love to pat themselves on the back for initiating progressive change, but most of the time they're the rooster taking credit for the sun rising in the sky. It's the people that have changed and Democrats scramble to keep up. Republicans are in such a bubble they don't have a clue what cultural change even means.
posted by zardoz at 9:55 PM on May 20 [4 favorites]
This is very true, but certain aspects of the culture have moved left, or "left." Gay marriage is the law of the land, something unthinkable in, say, 1985. Cannabis legalization, Me Too, BLM, etc. are examples of the culture changing, and the lowest common denominator of cultural change in the past 100 or so years, for the most part, is leftist/liberal ideology.
That's not the same as policy as practiced by the Democratic Party, which if anything has, as you said, moved to the right on policy, not left. Democratic politicians love to pat themselves on the back for initiating progressive change, but most of the time they're the rooster taking credit for the sun rising in the sky. It's the people that have changed and Democrats scramble to keep up. Republicans are in such a bubble they don't have a clue what cultural change even means.
posted by zardoz at 9:55 PM on May 20 [4 favorites]
The previous Democratic candidate for the presidency, a woman deeply respected, if not idolised, by the most dedicated Democrats, said "whatever does not help you win should not be a priority" about whether the Democratic party should support trans people and literally none of her fans cared or think one iota less of her for it. Doesn't seem much like left/right or good/bad comes into what the Democratic party heads want.
posted by Audreynachrome at 10:08 PM on May 20 [6 favorites]
posted by Audreynachrome at 10:08 PM on May 20 [6 favorites]
Like very clearly a whole bunch of the Democratic party *hates* that they've been saddled with the responsibility of being "progressive" and wants to jump at any possible excuse they can find to ditch social causes from their platform.
See, Gaza, see, trans people, see, climate activists.
posted by Audreynachrome at 10:13 PM on May 20 [7 favorites]
See, Gaza, see, trans people, see, climate activists.
posted by Audreynachrome at 10:13 PM on May 20 [7 favorites]
It has not been my experience that Democrats do not care, it's just that Clinton said that in 2022 and not while she was relevant in any way.
posted by Justinian at 10:13 PM on May 20 [2 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 10:13 PM on May 20 [2 favorites]
That should make it *easier* to condemn, and instead it's all "blessed wisdom from on high, she who was wronged"
posted by Audreynachrome at 10:23 PM on May 20 [4 favorites]
posted by Audreynachrome at 10:23 PM on May 20 [4 favorites]
I have no idea where you're getting that. It is not the reaction of anyone with which I am familiar. Additionally, it is super weird to give so much weight to the words of somebody who has not been anywhere near the levers of power for a decade and never will be near them again rather than the actual votes and words of people who are in power, up to and including the actual President.
Like the whole point she's making (which I don't agree with!) is that the current Democratic party is focusing too much on activist issues! They're doing the thing you seem to want them to do, which is support trans rights etc, and she's saying they're making an electoral mistake. That's actually evidence of the exact opposite thing you're trying to use it for. If you think she's wrong then that almost tautologically means that since the Democrats are being pro those good things they are right.
posted by Justinian at 10:34 PM on May 20 [2 favorites]
Like the whole point she's making (which I don't agree with!) is that the current Democratic party is focusing too much on activist issues! They're doing the thing you seem to want them to do, which is support trans rights etc, and she's saying they're making an electoral mistake. That's actually evidence of the exact opposite thing you're trying to use it for. If you think she's wrong then that almost tautologically means that since the Democrats are being pro those good things they are right.
posted by Justinian at 10:34 PM on May 20 [2 favorites]
An actual good essay NY Times managed to run on authoritarianism, presumably by accident. ‘The Seeds Had Been Planted. Trump Didn’t Do It Himself.’
posted by Artw at 10:38 PM on May 20 [3 favorites]
posted by Artw at 10:38 PM on May 20 [3 favorites]
If it was really true that HRC was irrelevant and literally not worth criticising, they wouldn't have bothered to get her out to chide the party.
She's relevant because y'all have made her so, she is the iconic star of moderate, compromising liberals, who are still ranting about "Bernie bros" (read: trans women) when nobody on the left has paid him any attention in years.
I think she's actually a reliable bellwether for what a lot of older Democrats think, and for guys like Nate Silver, Noah Smith, who present themselves as the arbiters of reasonable, calculated politics.
posted by Audreynachrome at 11:14 PM on May 20 [3 favorites]
She's relevant because y'all have made her so, she is the iconic star of moderate, compromising liberals, who are still ranting about "Bernie bros" (read: trans women) when nobody on the left has paid him any attention in years.
I think she's actually a reliable bellwether for what a lot of older Democrats think, and for guys like Nate Silver, Noah Smith, who present themselves as the arbiters of reasonable, calculated politics.
posted by Audreynachrome at 11:14 PM on May 20 [3 favorites]
she is the iconic star of moderate, compromising liberals, who are still ranting about "Bernie bros" (read: trans women)
Audreynachrome, I think I need some clarification on that. Are you saying that HRC is transphobic? Or that there are centrist/right leaning Democrats out there who think that Bernie Bros had a lot of trans women? Or that trans women support HRC?
Because if the first of those options, I don't see much evidence other than a 2022 slew of conservative media articles pushing the Hillary-is-transphobic narrative. I've never heard of the second option (like *gross* if people think trans women are "bros"), and finally, yes, I know of trans women who support HRC because they're feminists (like many of us are).
So I'm confused - please help :)
posted by Flight Hardware, do not touch at 7:43 AM on May 21 [1 favorite]
Audreynachrome, I think I need some clarification on that. Are you saying that HRC is transphobic? Or that there are centrist/right leaning Democrats out there who think that Bernie Bros had a lot of trans women? Or that trans women support HRC?
Because if the first of those options, I don't see much evidence other than a 2022 slew of conservative media articles pushing the Hillary-is-transphobic narrative. I've never heard of the second option (like *gross* if people think trans women are "bros"), and finally, yes, I know of trans women who support HRC because they're feminists (like many of us are).
So I'm confused - please help :)
posted by Flight Hardware, do not touch at 7:43 AM on May 21 [1 favorite]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernie_Bro
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2020/3/9/21168312/bernie-bros-bernie-sanders-chapo-trap-house-dirtbag-left
posted by Brian B. at 8:05 AM on May 21
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2020/3/9/21168312/bernie-bros-bernie-sanders-chapo-trap-house-dirtbag-left
posted by Brian B. at 8:05 AM on May 21
Brian B., was that an answer to my question? I know who Bernie Bros are, and their history with feminism (real or perceived). I was wondering about the 'trans women' mention by audreynachrome.
posted by Flight Hardware, do not touch at 8:18 AM on May 21 [1 favorite]
posted by Flight Hardware, do not touch at 8:18 AM on May 21 [1 favorite]
Clinton's 2022 remarks (which are neither the first nor the only instances of her being transphobic) were not out of step, they were a fairly mainstream position to take. Liberals and centrists at the time seemed perfectly happy with "saving" democracy by throwing marginalized groups under the bus. Hell, in 2022 Biden was still making deals with McConnell to nominate antichoice judges, one of which was to have been announced the day SCOTUS struck down Roe. And if that wasn't bad enough, the administration specifically shit on abortion activists as somehow being the real problem in their press conference that day.
Anyhow, this is a comment of mine from April of 2022 showing just how fucked the Dems can be about trans rights and how relevant Clinton's remarks were in that respect:
Anyhow, this is a comment of mine from April of 2022 showing just how fucked the Dems can be about trans rights and how relevant Clinton's remarks were in that respect:
Reminder that this isn't just conservatives. Just last week the leadership of the Maryland state legislature, which has a 2/3rds Democratic majority, refused to allow vote for a bill for providing Medicaid to transgender residents in order to cover for their anti-LGBTQ right flank. Fox News started running transphobic segments encouraging violence against LGBTQ people and the governor of New Jersey now seems to think that maybe they have a point. At the federal level, Congressional Dems, especially leadership, seem unafraid or possibly even unwilling to got to bat for trans Americans.posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 8:32 AM on May 21 [9 favorites]
Of course, that doesn't even touch how a large part of the liberal and centrist punditry is either repeatedly covering for/both-sidesing murderous transphobes (see also: Matt Yglesias) or has just dived head-first into it themselves. Not unexpectedly, the Venn diagram of this group is pretty much a circle with the group who signed the infamous "Harper's Letter." And this isn't just happening on Twitter or Substack, either. The Washington Post, NYT, and LA Times (all of whom have a history of this) have all published hateful anti-trans articles in the last several weeks aimed directly at the kind of people who fetishize "civility" over human life.
Everyone has been screaming about KOSA being a transparent attempt to drive trans people off the internet for over a year now and all you’ll ever get out of any Dem leadership is that it’s bipartisan and “protects children” (it will not protect any children).
posted by Artw at 8:41 AM on May 21 [4 favorites]
posted by Artw at 8:41 AM on May 21 [4 favorites]
an NYT gift link is like a paper bag full of shit, afire, on the doorstep, and posting NYT is like ringing the doorbell. Can we not? I just wonder.
Actually, I want to thank box for this link. Not everyone has a NYT subscription, so I appreciate the thought.
posted by doctornemo at 10:22 AM on May 21 [3 favorites]
Actually, I want to thank box for this link. Not everyone has a NYT subscription, so I appreciate the thought.
posted by doctornemo at 10:22 AM on May 21 [3 favorites]
Ditto.
remember the ditto machines from the 1970s and the smell of the fluid then volunteering to make dittos for teacher, that's kind of like the Democratic Party.
posted by clavdivs at 1:27 PM on May 21
remember the ditto machines from the 1970s and the smell of the fluid then volunteering to make dittos for teacher, that's kind of like the Democratic Party.
posted by clavdivs at 1:27 PM on May 21
Flight Hardware, do not touch
What I'm suggesting is closest to the second option, that centrist/right-leaning Dems specifically relish the use of the term bernie bros *because* they are aware of how many trans women are critical of the Democratic party.
I saw so much of it, so much disingenuous "I didn't check your profile, sorry, but actually I was talking *generally* when I QTed you complaining about bernie bros" type shit. The constant implications that by choosing not to support HRC, you'd lose the right to respect, or to consider yourself a feminist, much less a woman.
posted by Audreynachrome at 8:43 PM on May 21 [5 favorites]
What I'm suggesting is closest to the second option, that centrist/right-leaning Dems specifically relish the use of the term bernie bros *because* they are aware of how many trans women are critical of the Democratic party.
I saw so much of it, so much disingenuous "I didn't check your profile, sorry, but actually I was talking *generally* when I QTed you complaining about bernie bros" type shit. The constant implications that by choosing not to support HRC, you'd lose the right to respect, or to consider yourself a feminist, much less a woman.
posted by Audreynachrome at 8:43 PM on May 21 [5 favorites]
So I follow C Derrick Varn, and he made this post re: Djene Bajalan (a comrade of his/occasional cohost):
posted by symbioid at 11:41 PM on May 21
To quote mean Djene: The question is not "Socialism in One Country or permanent revolution, the question today is capitalism in one country or permanent counter-revolution."Depressing AF and this is how I've been feeling lately. "The only alternative is the status quo" How bloody awful.
posted by symbioid at 11:41 PM on May 21
Kansas governor passes law requiring ID to view acts of 'homosexuality' online, vetoes anti-LGBTQ+ bill
Pretty good encapsulation of what Dems will oppose, for now, and what they’ll let slip by if you dress it up in appropriate language.
posted by Artw at 8:35 AM on May 22 [5 favorites]
Pretty good encapsulation of what Dems will oppose, for now, and what they’ll let slip by if you dress it up in appropriate language.
posted by Artw at 8:35 AM on May 22 [5 favorites]
What I'm suggesting is closest to the second option, that centrist/right-leaning Dems specifically relish the use of the term bernie bros *because* they are aware of how many trans women are critical of the Democratic party.
Thanks for the explanation - and wow. I clearly haven't been following what 'centrist' Dems have been doing closely enough since 2020. Ick.
Also, I really appreciate the support for trans rights I'm seeing in this thread. I wasn't sure if the discussion of the article was going to cover that - I'm glad it has. The author of the article really seemed to me to be speaking from an enormously privileged position (and has been appropriately thrashed by people here!).
I do worry a lot about being thrown under the bus sometime soon. Biden's position (or lack thereof) on trans athletes has been one strong recent indicator.
In the end, though, sadly, heavily marginalized communities often don't really get to 'vote' as such. We usually just have to pull the lever for the lesser of two evils.
posted by Flight Hardware, do not touch at 9:22 PM on May 22 [2 favorites]
Thanks for the explanation - and wow. I clearly haven't been following what 'centrist' Dems have been doing closely enough since 2020. Ick.
Also, I really appreciate the support for trans rights I'm seeing in this thread. I wasn't sure if the discussion of the article was going to cover that - I'm glad it has. The author of the article really seemed to me to be speaking from an enormously privileged position (and has been appropriately thrashed by people here!).
I do worry a lot about being thrown under the bus sometime soon. Biden's position (or lack thereof) on trans athletes has been one strong recent indicator.
In the end, though, sadly, heavily marginalized communities often don't really get to 'vote' as such. We usually just have to pull the lever for the lesser of two evils.
posted by Flight Hardware, do not touch at 9:22 PM on May 22 [2 favorites]
According to a number of studies, the current farm bill further diminishes SNAP benefits for low income Americans, to the tune of billions of dollars.
This bill will be passed under a Democratic president, one who claims to look out for the welfare of the working class.
Welfare reform was the project of a Democratic president. While a Democrat was president, the very same financial institutions that caused the 2008 financial crisis were bailed out, while the home owners who were taken advantage of by predatory loans were fed to the wolves.
The Democrats were also architects of the neo-liberal project, so please forgive those of us who point out that while yes, the Democratic party, on the whole is the lesser evil, their policies often create the conditions that lead to the possibility of a maniac such as Trump becoming the president.
posted by nikoniko at 1:13 PM on May 23 [3 favorites]
This bill will be passed under a Democratic president, one who claims to look out for the welfare of the working class.
Welfare reform was the project of a Democratic president. While a Democrat was president, the very same financial institutions that caused the 2008 financial crisis were bailed out, while the home owners who were taken advantage of by predatory loans were fed to the wolves.
The Democrats were also architects of the neo-liberal project, so please forgive those of us who point out that while yes, the Democratic party, on the whole is the lesser evil, their policies often create the conditions that lead to the possibility of a maniac such as Trump becoming the president.
posted by nikoniko at 1:13 PM on May 23 [3 favorites]
The farm bill is still under negotiation and according to the reporting Democrats are pushing hard against the SNAP changes. Maybe they'll win, maybe they'll lose, but perhaps we should see where it ends up before saying they screwed the pooch?
posted by Justinian at 11:01 PM on May 23 [2 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 11:01 PM on May 23 [2 favorites]
Welfare reform was the project of a Democratic president.
Welfare revision is hard to describe if you weren't there watching it sink every election. Bill Clinton didn't wait for the opposition to gut it their way. Immigration today is comparable in the scope of bad press and election losses, but I'd prefer any law written by a Democrat over a Republican, the latter being what policy failure really looks like.
The Democrats were also architects of the neo-liberal project
If you mean neoliberalism, then not true. There was actually once a time when they had to camouflage their conservative Trojan horse, despite being the sum total Republican platform.
Naomi Klein states that the three policy pillars of neoliberalism are "privatization of the public sphere, deregulation of the corporate sector, and the lowering of income and corporate taxes, paid for with cuts to public spending".[63]
posted by Brian B. at 9:24 AM on May 24
Welfare revision is hard to describe if you weren't there watching it sink every election. Bill Clinton didn't wait for the opposition to gut it their way. Immigration today is comparable in the scope of bad press and election losses, but I'd prefer any law written by a Democrat over a Republican, the latter being what policy failure really looks like.
The Democrats were also architects of the neo-liberal project
If you mean neoliberalism, then not true. There was actually once a time when they had to camouflage their conservative Trojan horse, despite being the sum total Republican platform.
Naomi Klein states that the three policy pillars of neoliberalism are "privatization of the public sphere, deregulation of the corporate sector, and the lowering of income and corporate taxes, paid for with cuts to public spending".[63]
posted by Brian B. at 9:24 AM on May 24
Bill Clinton repealed Glass Steagal. Are you attempting to say that Democrats aren't also architects of neoliberalism? I don't quite follow your Trojan horse analogy.
posted by nikoniko at 10:57 AM on May 24 [2 favorites]
posted by nikoniko at 10:57 AM on May 24 [2 favorites]
How Bill Clinton Remade the Democratic Party by Abandoning Unions: An Arkansas Story from the Labor and Working Class History Association.
I would argue that a lot of the push back against Hillary Clinton from working class voters was due to her husband's as well as her "centrist" policies, in addition to the sexism/misogyny etc. Sanders and Trump appealed (in wildly divergent ways) to that disenfranchised group of people, which makes up an ever increasing majority of this country (and of the world).
posted by nikoniko at 12:25 PM on May 24 [2 favorites]
I would argue that a lot of the push back against Hillary Clinton from working class voters was due to her husband's as well as her "centrist" policies, in addition to the sexism/misogyny etc. Sanders and Trump appealed (in wildly divergent ways) to that disenfranchised group of people, which makes up an ever increasing majority of this country (and of the world).
posted by nikoniko at 12:25 PM on May 24 [2 favorites]
The way that Trump appealed to them has been well established to be primarily about racism and xenophobia. Which is definitely hugely different than Sanders' appeal but I'm not sure it has much to do with actual policies; those voters (note it was specifically white non-college voters, not working class voters that moved strongly to Trump) would have done so without regard to her economic policies.
We politically engaged folks tend to dramatically overestimate how much people care about (or at least vote about) policy. They mostly don't. It makes no sense to people who do care about policy and thus is hard to internalize but it's true.
posted by Justinian at 4:06 PM on May 24 [2 favorites]
We politically engaged folks tend to dramatically overestimate how much people care about (or at least vote about) policy. They mostly don't. It makes no sense to people who do care about policy and thus is hard to internalize but it's true.
posted by Justinian at 4:06 PM on May 24 [2 favorites]
Justinian: The way that Trump appealed to them has been well established to be primarily about racism and xenophobia. Which is definitely hugely different than Sanders' appeal but I'm not sure it has much to do with actual policies; those voters (note it was specifically white non-college voters, not working class voters that moved strongly to Trump) would have done so without regard to her economic policies.
A few months ago I was reading a history of working-class political movements in England starting with the Chartists. The impression I got was that enthusiasm built for whoever seemed like they might get something done. Once a program or ideology demonstrated that it wasn't going to get results, it faded and was replaced with the next enthusiasm.
The particulars of each program appeared to be immensely important in the short term, but in the medium term it was the hope of getting something, anything, done that had mass appeal.
After reading about that, "used to be an Obama supporter, flirted with being a Bernie Bro, now a Qanon Trump supporter" didn't seem so weird. It's kinda the same reformist-socialist-jingoist (and then repeat and remix) sequence of late 1800s England.
Underlying all of them is the hope that this movement will get something done, and perhaps anger that the last one didn't.
posted by clawsoon at 4:42 PM on May 24 [3 favorites]
A few months ago I was reading a history of working-class political movements in England starting with the Chartists. The impression I got was that enthusiasm built for whoever seemed like they might get something done. Once a program or ideology demonstrated that it wasn't going to get results, it faded and was replaced with the next enthusiasm.
The particulars of each program appeared to be immensely important in the short term, but in the medium term it was the hope of getting something, anything, done that had mass appeal.
After reading about that, "used to be an Obama supporter, flirted with being a Bernie Bro, now a Qanon Trump supporter" didn't seem so weird. It's kinda the same reformist-socialist-jingoist (and then repeat and remix) sequence of late 1800s England.
Underlying all of them is the hope that this movement will get something done, and perhaps anger that the last one didn't.
posted by clawsoon at 4:42 PM on May 24 [3 favorites]
clawsoon your comment is far more interesting and historically aware than this webcomic but it expresses the same idea and always makes me snortlaugh.
posted by Justinian at 1:13 AM on May 25 [5 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 1:13 AM on May 25 [5 favorites]
We politically engaged folks tend to dramatically overestimate how much people care about (or at least vote about) policy. They mostly don't. It makes no sense to people who do care about policy and thus is hard to internalize but it's true.
Agreed. There's also an aspect where someone "chooses" something based on childhood influences, then supplies a reason for that particular choice. Both their choices and reasons are influenced by their personal autonomy relating to peers and parents.
posted by Brian B. at 8:27 AM on May 25
Agreed. There's also an aspect where someone "chooses" something based on childhood influences, then supplies a reason for that particular choice. Both their choices and reasons are influenced by their personal autonomy relating to peers and parents.
posted by Brian B. at 8:27 AM on May 25
Justinian: clawsoon your comment is far more interesting and historically aware than this webcomic but it expresses the same idea and always makes me snortlaugh.
One other part of it was that each movement failed as a movement but also became "duh, of course we have to do things that way" parts of British political thought. Of course there should be secret ballots and votes for all adults, of course there should be a welfare system, of course the British are the best people in the world.
posted by clawsoon at 9:12 AM on May 25
One other part of it was that each movement failed as a movement but also became "duh, of course we have to do things that way" parts of British political thought. Of course there should be secret ballots and votes for all adults, of course there should be a welfare system, of course the British are the best people in the world.
posted by clawsoon at 9:12 AM on May 25
Fascism gets called the fools socialism for a reason but the “fool” bit is important.
posted by Artw at 9:14 AM on May 25 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 9:14 AM on May 25 [1 favorite]
I would just like to agree, on the record, with Audreynachrome, that a whole lot of women (cis and trans) got labeled "Bernie Bros" (and still do!) by with-her centrist Democrats. I'm a ~cis woman, i've been a feminist for decades, and i (critically) supported Sanders and got relentlessly accused on social media of being an evil misogynist for it.
posted by adrienneleigh at 4:19 PM on May 26 [2 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 4:19 PM on May 26 [2 favorites]
Remember the PUMAs? There’s some fucking weird notionally feminist stuff that goes on in the reactionary wing of the Democratic Party.
posted by Artw at 4:24 PM on May 26 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 4:24 PM on May 26 [1 favorite]
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Come the fuck on.
Most voters, especially working-class voters, feel differently. The soaring level of immigration during Biden’s presidency, much of it illegal, has become a political liability, and it nearly led to another piece of neopopulist legislation this year. Senate Democrats and Republicans put together a plan to strengthen border security. It was the mirror image of Republicans’ agreeing to support the semiconductor and infrastructure bills: This time, some Democrats abandoned a policy stance that was out of step with public opinion.
There's a constant complaint about there not being enough workers and this country's biggest economic booms came from increased immigration.
Is Neopopulism an actual new trend? Or is it just seeing a pattern in the incoherent flailing of electeds that would lose astonishing amounts of wealth and power to legislative actions that actually solve problems (like single payer, abolishing single family zoning, and appropriate levels of taxation) and are thus trying to implement literally anything else, idiologies be damned?
posted by Slackermagee at 5:00 AM on May 20 [45 favorites]