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May 21, 2024 3:40 AM Subscribe
This opera has everything. Murder, intrigue,eunuchs, David Hockney designed sets, forced perspective, And who doesn't love Nessun Dorma? I've never wanted to be in Los Angeles more than right now. Puccini's "Turindot" playing as we speak..
Turan-d'oh!
posted by chavenet at 3:50 AM on May 21 [1 favorite]
posted by chavenet at 3:50 AM on May 21 [1 favorite]
Ok, now you got me googlin, and the first three minutes of this excitedly informative 10-minute video had me changing my mind about the pronunciation at least 4 times. It's a hilariously complicated question.
posted by mediareport at 3:59 AM on May 21 [5 favorites]
posted by mediareport at 3:59 AM on May 21 [5 favorites]
Any news on whether they pronounce the final “t” in the name? That seems hotly-debated in opera land.
Not really, in my experience. Everyone pronounces the final T.
The Carlo Gozzi play from which it was adapted spelled it “Turandotte” and that was taken from the Persian term “Turandohkt” meaning “daughter of Persia,” both of which pronounce the final T. So why would an Italian opera about a Persian princess pronounce her name in French? Puccini has been said to have Frenchified the pronunciation, but I’m not so sure about that. In any event, I’ve been to many performances of this opera and have sung quite a bit of it, and the final T has always been pronounced.
posted by slkinsey at 4:18 AM on May 21 [6 favorites]
Not really, in my experience. Everyone pronounces the final T.
The Carlo Gozzi play from which it was adapted spelled it “Turandotte” and that was taken from the Persian term “Turandohkt” meaning “daughter of Persia,” both of which pronounce the final T. So why would an Italian opera about a Persian princess pronounce her name in French? Puccini has been said to have Frenchified the pronunciation, but I’m not so sure about that. In any event, I’ve been to many performances of this opera and have sung quite a bit of it, and the final T has always been pronounced.
posted by slkinsey at 4:18 AM on May 21 [6 favorites]
It's simpler for everybody if we just perform it backwards, yielding the less ambiguously pronounceable "Todnarut".
posted by phooky at 5:29 AM on May 21 [4 favorites]
posted by phooky at 5:29 AM on May 21 [4 favorites]
I hate Nessun dorma. It's a figure-skating warhorse and I'm deathly sick of it.
posted by humbug at 6:14 AM on May 21
posted by humbug at 6:14 AM on May 21
humbug...name checks out.
posted by Czjewel at 6:28 AM on May 21 [8 favorites]
posted by Czjewel at 6:28 AM on May 21 [8 favorites]
if you've got a bit more time/can't make LA, there's Turandot at the Forbidden City, directed by Zhang Yimou
posted by HearHere at 6:33 AM on May 21 [1 favorite]
posted by HearHere at 6:33 AM on May 21 [1 favorite]
So why would an Italian opera about a Persian princess pronounce her name in French?
Why would an opera set in China have a character with a Persian name? Opera is weird. I’ve seen arguments that some of the lines are very hard to sing if you assume the t at the end, but I’m no sort of singer, so….
My favorite Turandot story is from a singer who was in a lot of opera choruses. He was in a production which was built around a sort of rotating mountain set, and the chorus entered winding up the mountain to the big gong at the top. Since the set was rotating, the chorus had to sing in time but move faster as they ascended. At the dress rehearsal, the chorus was moving so fast that the gong guy hit the front member with the mallet and threw the lot of them down the stage.
posted by GenjiandProust at 7:18 AM on May 21 [4 favorites]
Why would an opera set in China have a character with a Persian name? Opera is weird. I’ve seen arguments that some of the lines are very hard to sing if you assume the t at the end, but I’m no sort of singer, so….
My favorite Turandot story is from a singer who was in a lot of opera choruses. He was in a production which was built around a sort of rotating mountain set, and the chorus entered winding up the mountain to the big gong at the top. Since the set was rotating, the chorus had to sing in time but move faster as they ascended. At the dress rehearsal, the chorus was moving so fast that the gong guy hit the front member with the mallet and threw the lot of them down the stage.
posted by GenjiandProust at 7:18 AM on May 21 [4 favorites]
Nessun dorma is far from the best part of the opera. For me, it's the first-act finale, from "Signore, ascolta" through "Non piangere, Liu" and the big gongs at the end. Peak Puccini.
posted by Ben Trismegistus at 8:33 AM on May 21 [1 favorite]
posted by Ben Trismegistus at 8:33 AM on May 21 [1 favorite]
Ben Trismegistus. Yes, that is a lovely part too. Comes down to personal taste methinks.
posted by Czjewel at 9:04 AM on May 21
posted by Czjewel at 9:04 AM on May 21
Having Smeagol solve the the riddles in this version really subverts typical casting.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 9:09 AM on May 21
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 9:09 AM on May 21
I’m not in a position to go to LA right now, but I saw the Hockney design during its first outing in Chicago (the San Francisco Opera was also involved) and, if the current revival is everything it was in 1992, I can highly recommend it. It is a product of the Ardis Kranik/Bruno Bartoletti years and under their leadership Lyric really did some special things. Nothing against Andrew Davis/Mason and Freud, but there was something special about the work they commissioned in the 80s and 90s.
If you want a good look just at the design of the sets, Hockney’s website has you covered. They somehow entirely suit the fairytale story — stunning visually and not unnecessarily realistic, without veering into a perverse reinvention. The LA Times/MSN has more details on the production.
posted by Quinbus Flestrin at 9:47 AM on May 21 [1 favorite]
If you want a good look just at the design of the sets, Hockney’s website has you covered. They somehow entirely suit the fairytale story — stunning visually and not unnecessarily realistic, without veering into a perverse reinvention. The LA Times/MSN has more details on the production.
posted by Quinbus Flestrin at 9:47 AM on May 21 [1 favorite]
Everyone pronounces the final T.
Except for Rosa Raisa, the woman who created the role, who can be heard at 2:11 in this clip correcting a radio interviewer and clearly asserting the correct pronunciation as "tur-an-DO", and claiming Puccini and Toscanini both pronounced it that way, too.
Rosa Raisa's opinion on the question should matter somewhat, no?
posted by mediareport at 12:13 PM on May 21 [3 favorites]
Except for Rosa Raisa, the woman who created the role, who can be heard at 2:11 in this clip correcting a radio interviewer and clearly asserting the correct pronunciation as "tur-an-DO", and claiming Puccini and Toscanini both pronounced it that way, too.
Rosa Raisa's opinion on the question should matter somewhat, no?
posted by mediareport at 12:13 PM on May 21 [3 favorites]
Ever since I turned 30 (over a decade ago now) I've been trying all the things snooty people have always said are good but which I used to be skeptical of. And it turns out that for the most part the fancy people are totally right. Biscotti is delicious, not tooth-breaking dry nonsense. Black truffles are amazing, holy shit, totally worth the $30 I paid for a tiny sliver of it. That weird 4 hour black-and-white Russian movie by Andrei Tarkovsky that critics raved about, spectacular. Mozart and Bach and all those guys, insanely talented. Fucking Shakespeare was a fucking god, I will never get over that revelation (don't hate me for my lateness, I was educated in an Asian country where I was "streamed" into STEM-only classes since 7th grade so I never had a teacher teach me Shakespeare in school).
Aaanyway now I'm thinking I'll try opera too but it is intimidating AF. I mean we are supposed to do some homework before we show up, yes? Like I should find a translation of the liberetto (is that the term?) to understand what they're singing about, obviously, and I'm guessing I should listen to various productions of the same opera so I can really appreciate what I'm hearing, understand whether it's good or bad or what. Right? Is that how you all got into opera? You can't all speak Italian, surely. How were you introduced? How did you all ramp up to enjoying this?
posted by MiraK at 4:54 PM on May 21 [6 favorites]
Aaanyway now I'm thinking I'll try opera too but it is intimidating AF. I mean we are supposed to do some homework before we show up, yes? Like I should find a translation of the liberetto (is that the term?) to understand what they're singing about, obviously, and I'm guessing I should listen to various productions of the same opera so I can really appreciate what I'm hearing, understand whether it's good or bad or what. Right? Is that how you all got into opera? You can't all speak Italian, surely. How were you introduced? How did you all ramp up to enjoying this?
posted by MiraK at 4:54 PM on May 21 [6 favorites]
I mean we are supposed to do some homework before we show up, yes? Like I should find a translation of the liberetto (is that the term?) to understand what they're singing about, obviouslyDo homework if you like, as there’s a lot to learn if you’re interested, but it shouldn’t be necessary for the most part. A bit like going to a Shakespeare play, more background can enhance the experience, but a decent production should be great without. And as for a libretto, following along in a printed libretto with a tiny flashlight hasn’t really been a thing for decades, ever since they started projecting supertitles in most opera houses (or at the Met seatback titles with selectable languages), so not knowing Italian is not much of a disadvantage.
I got taken as a kid: in my humble opinion taking a kid to Hansel and Gretel just because it’s a based on a fairytale was not a smart move, but I survived — I love opera but I still can’t stand that one :-) For an adult who has already decided they like Mozart, why not start there? Magic Flute, Marriage of Figaro, Don Giovanni… I could go on, but you get the idea.
posted by Quinbus Flestrin at 5:19 PM on May 21 [1 favorite]
Like I should find a translation of the liberetto (is that the term?) to understand what they're singing about
There are translations projected above the stage during the performance!
posted by mr_roboto at 5:23 PM on May 21 [1 favorite]
There are translations projected above the stage during the performance!
posted by mr_roboto at 5:23 PM on May 21 [1 favorite]
MiraK. I went to art school in my early 20s. Mingled with poor and wealthy classmates.Visiting their homes, the wealthier ones, there was often opera or classical music playing in the background. My background was lower middle class, so no opera in our house. But I was of course mainly into folk music and rock and roll. I guess it seeped on slowly is what I'm saying. I am by no means an opera buff. But I do watch it occasionally. I love the spectacle of it. The massive stage sets. And the lovely voices. I have tried to appreciate ballet. But that is proving a hard nut to crack. But I keep trying. I know the big names of course, Nureyev, Baryshnikov,etc. To watch them leap and dance is breathtaking. So I shall keep trying to "get" ballet. It will come.
posted by Czjewel at 5:31 PM on May 21 [1 favorite]
posted by Czjewel at 5:31 PM on May 21 [1 favorite]
Huh, I went to high school with Angela Meade, the person playing Turandot. Good for her. I knew she was signing opera but I wasn't aware how far her career had progressed
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 9:57 PM on May 21
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 9:57 PM on May 21
I’m not a big opera fan by any means, but my take on it as a relative amateur is you want to revel in the spectacle — the sets, the drama, the voices, the music, the big feelings. I usually try to find a moderately fleshed out synopsis of the story so I have a general idea of what’s going on, then just go and enjoy.
posted by GenjiandProust at 6:49 AM on May 22 [1 favorite]
posted by GenjiandProust at 6:49 AM on May 22 [1 favorite]
I'm stunned to find out there are supertitles/captions! How freaking cool is that. That makes the whole prospect a LOT less intimidating, thanks folks.
Edit: ... come to think of it why don't they ever show the existence of captions in opera on TV? I'm looking at Frasier especially, come on, they had so many opportunities. I feel betrayed.
posted by MiraK at 9:17 AM on May 22 [2 favorites]
Edit: ... come to think of it why don't they ever show the existence of captions in opera on TV? I'm looking at Frasier especially, come on, they had so many opportunities. I feel betrayed.
posted by MiraK at 9:17 AM on May 22 [2 favorites]
My personal favourite part of Turandot is the extended trio at the top of Act II: the three comic-relief guys complaining about how they're sick of having to plan for weddings, funerals and beheadings and wish they could retire to the country.
Full parallel-text libreto here (pdf)
Version with score
Staged version
from the National Opera of Ukraine, 2010
posted by Pallas Athena at 5:47 PM on May 22 [3 favorites]
Full parallel-text libreto here (pdf)
Version with score
Staged version
from the National Opera of Ukraine, 2010
posted by Pallas Athena at 5:47 PM on May 22 [3 favorites]
I was in a production of this version in 2004. It was my first full opera with a non-college company, and part of the season in which we inaugurated our city’s massive new concert hall.
It was FANTASTIC. I dearly wish it had been after the advent of the iPhone, because I have no photos of myself onstage or off.
My then-husband had never been into opera, but he decided to come along for the ride as a supernumerary. I think there were three of them. They had at least three costumes that each required a ridiculous amount of makeup and coordination: going from a bald-capped sort of eunuch guy with tanned skin and rather exotic eyeliner to a palace official with almost clown-like white makeup, multiple costume layers and some ridiculous architectural hat that looked like it had ping-pong balls hanging off the sides.
I got to play a handmaiden - just like my mother had done 25 years before, when I was in utero.
[stefon] This show had EVERYTHING: [/stefon]
*a ginormous sharpening wheel with sparks shooting off it
*a huge bald guy playing an executioner (he was a very nice guy who I think was someone’s boyfriend, hee hee), as we all gleefully sang about sharpening the axe
*a super steep raked bit with the emperor’s throne and he was (in character) predictably decrepit and I think I worried about him falling off in the middle of the show
*a VERY funny and warm Norwegian soprano who was the exact opposite of Turandot herself
*a bunch of kids there for like a single scene, and when they practiced one of the girls went, “This water bottle is the worst excuse for a lantern I’ve EVER SEEN!!!” leading the propmistress to utter a rather inappropriate something about what she wanted to do to that kid
When it all came together, it was MASSIVE and CRAZY and the drama ramped up like a wall of fire.
It was the shit.
posted by St. Hubbins at 12:27 AM on May 23 [5 favorites]
It was FANTASTIC. I dearly wish it had been after the advent of the iPhone, because I have no photos of myself onstage or off.
My then-husband had never been into opera, but he decided to come along for the ride as a supernumerary. I think there were three of them. They had at least three costumes that each required a ridiculous amount of makeup and coordination: going from a bald-capped sort of eunuch guy with tanned skin and rather exotic eyeliner to a palace official with almost clown-like white makeup, multiple costume layers and some ridiculous architectural hat that looked like it had ping-pong balls hanging off the sides.
I got to play a handmaiden - just like my mother had done 25 years before, when I was in utero.
[stefon] This show had EVERYTHING: [/stefon]
*a ginormous sharpening wheel with sparks shooting off it
*a huge bald guy playing an executioner (he was a very nice guy who I think was someone’s boyfriend, hee hee), as we all gleefully sang about sharpening the axe
*a super steep raked bit with the emperor’s throne and he was (in character) predictably decrepit and I think I worried about him falling off in the middle of the show
*a VERY funny and warm Norwegian soprano who was the exact opposite of Turandot herself
*a bunch of kids there for like a single scene, and when they practiced one of the girls went, “This water bottle is the worst excuse for a lantern I’ve EVER SEEN!!!” leading the propmistress to utter a rather inappropriate something about what she wanted to do to that kid
When it all came together, it was MASSIVE and CRAZY and the drama ramped up like a wall of fire.
It was the shit.
posted by St. Hubbins at 12:27 AM on May 23 [5 favorites]
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posted by GenjiandProust at 3:49 AM on May 21 [2 favorites]