We used to have choices. Now we are railroaded.
May 27, 2024 1:09 AM Subscribe
All this matters because the interfaces in question do the job of the dictator and the censor, and we embrace it. More than being infuriating, they train us to accept gross restrictions in return for trifling or non-existent ease of use, or are a fig leaf covering what is actually going on. from The accidental tyranny of user interfaces by Oliver Meredith Cox
While the author is right about the restrictions on copying text, they overestimate the amount to which users want the details of what's going on under the hood. Users, for the most part, want the app to do whatever it's supposed to do. They don't care how it gets done... do it and do it quickly. You can't even get users to read instructions or pay attention to hover information (if they're even aware that's an option).
posted by kokaku at 1:58 AM on May 27 [8 favorites]
posted by kokaku at 1:58 AM on May 27 [8 favorites]
I agree YouTube is a mess
How many times have I fumbled around YouTube with an ever increasing volume of grumbling asking "where the F is the......???"
posted by robbyrobs at 2:44 AM on May 27 [1 favorite]
How many times have I fumbled around YouTube with an ever increasing volume of grumbling asking "where the F is the......???"
posted by robbyrobs at 2:44 AM on May 27 [1 favorite]
'railroaded' of course derived from abuse of power by corporations. another early neologism related to the new texhnology, more archaic today, is 'railroad shock'. PTSD is how we describe that today
posted by HearHere at 3:14 AM on May 27 [10 favorites]
posted by HearHere at 3:14 AM on May 27 [10 favorites]
I have always ignored the YouTube app on my phone because unlike Firefox on the same phone, the app has no way for me to install an ad blocker.
So until Grayjay turned up, I was just using the YouTube web page to look at YouTube on my phone. But Grayjay has a nicer UI than the mobile version of the YouTube web page, and it doesn't insert ads to begin with so no ad blocker is required. It also plays videos from more providers than only YouTube, and does that in a consistent way that hides almost all of the differences between what those providers offer natively.
The good UIs are still around (Cx File Explorer and Open Camera are two more examples that immediately spring to mind) but it's unrealistic to expect the advertising-industrial complex to hand them to you on a platter. Its entire business model is predicated on attempting to canalize user behaviour toward mindless acceptance of what's put in front of you: you get what you get and you don't get upset.
I've always been too picky a digital eater to be happy with that offer, but I am keenly aware that billions of people are satisfied enough with the dry kibble being shovelled their way to do nothing more about it than grumble about how cardboardy it's been getting lately; and although I certainly see that fact as greasing the bottom of the handbasket in which we are all sliding into hell, there's not much I can do about it beyond pointing out to everybody I know that you don't actually need to put up with being treated like livestock on a feedlot and can go out and forage for more nutritious digital sustenance. Just don't expect to be able to do that without being willing to learn at least a little bit about how IT systems actually work.
posted by flabdablet at 3:14 AM on May 27 [13 favorites]
So until Grayjay turned up, I was just using the YouTube web page to look at YouTube on my phone. But Grayjay has a nicer UI than the mobile version of the YouTube web page, and it doesn't insert ads to begin with so no ad blocker is required. It also plays videos from more providers than only YouTube, and does that in a consistent way that hides almost all of the differences between what those providers offer natively.
The good UIs are still around (Cx File Explorer and Open Camera are two more examples that immediately spring to mind) but it's unrealistic to expect the advertising-industrial complex to hand them to you on a platter. Its entire business model is predicated on attempting to canalize user behaviour toward mindless acceptance of what's put in front of you: you get what you get and you don't get upset.
I've always been too picky a digital eater to be happy with that offer, but I am keenly aware that billions of people are satisfied enough with the dry kibble being shovelled their way to do nothing more about it than grumble about how cardboardy it's been getting lately; and although I certainly see that fact as greasing the bottom of the handbasket in which we are all sliding into hell, there's not much I can do about it beyond pointing out to everybody I know that you don't actually need to put up with being treated like livestock on a feedlot and can go out and forage for more nutritious digital sustenance. Just don't expect to be able to do that without being willing to learn at least a little bit about how IT systems actually work.
posted by flabdablet at 3:14 AM on May 27 [13 favorites]
There are just... a lot of different things going on this essay. The author's thesis that "intuitiveness" is the reason for all these problems doesn't hold.
Ted Nelson is also on record in calling the filesystem a tyranny invented by UNIX, and that we should be able to manage our permanent data as a complex relational database, or a flat record of near-infinite bytes. For him, the console is not even a "true" representation of computing.
For absolutists like Ted Nelson there is no true representation of computing anyway. It's all a simplification with choices made for intuitiveness. The fact that he nor his associates have been able to build any of his proposed systems to the point that anyone could use it is... interesting.
So, no, intuitiveness is not the cause of most of these choices, or if it is it's a strawman concept meant to hide a real cause: saving money or being lazy, either by choice of the developer/company or the user. These issues should be explored on a case by case basis.
posted by sixohsix at 3:59 AM on May 27 [25 favorites]
Ted Nelson identifies how in Xerox’s much-lauded Palo Alto Research Center (the birthplace of personal computing), the user was given a graphical user interface, but in return gave up the ability to form their own connections between programs, which were thereafter trapped inside “windows” — the immense potential of computing for abstraction and connection was dumbed down to “simulated paper.”Text-based Linux, or FreeBSD, or many other operating systems are still available, and some people use them. The reason they aren't popular is that they require more training to use than a windowing system. Should we admonish people for choosing not to learn bash script and console hacking? For not knowing how their computers really work?
Ted Nelson is also on record in calling the filesystem a tyranny invented by UNIX, and that we should be able to manage our permanent data as a complex relational database, or a flat record of near-infinite bytes. For him, the console is not even a "true" representation of computing.
For absolutists like Ted Nelson there is no true representation of computing anyway. It's all a simplification with choices made for intuitiveness. The fact that he nor his associates have been able to build any of his proposed systems to the point that anyone could use it is... interesting.
Do you remember when you could lock your phone or use another app, and listen to YouTube in the background? Not any more. YouTube took away this — my fingers hovered over the keyboard there for a moment, and I nearly typed “feature” — YouTube continuing to play in the background is not a feature, it should be the normal operation of an app of that type; the fact that it closes when you switch apps is a devious anti-feature.Right, you have to pay money for this feature now. It's not about intuitiveness, it's about capitalism. Is it cruel and disgusting? Yes. But that's not the argument here.
[In WhatsApp] one used to be able to select and copy any amount of text from messages. Now, when one tries to select something from an individual message, the whole thing gets selected, and the standard operations are offered: delete, copy, share, etc.Okay, yeah, even as someone with user interface design experience I don't understand why they did this. It doesn't even feel intuitive, it just feels bad. Anyone else have a theory?
Our previous building had normal lifts: you call a lift and, inside, select your floor. This building has a newer system: you go to a panel in the lobby and select your floor, the system then tells you the number of the lift that it has called for you.I suspect this has nothing to do with intuitiveness, but with the need to shuttle more and more people up and down while saving money by not installing as many elevators.
So, no, intuitiveness is not the cause of most of these choices, or if it is it's a strawman concept meant to hide a real cause: saving money or being lazy, either by choice of the developer/company or the user. These issues should be explored on a case by case basis.
posted by sixohsix at 3:59 AM on May 27 [25 favorites]
they overestimate the amount to which users want the details
This is true, but the article is also true in that most modern software intentionally hides the details and makes it impossible to find. Part of this is that this info can't help you ("Download Error (0x80070643)" gives you details but not the kind that can solve a problem) but this in turn is a result of software engineers writing error messages as though no one will read them: we just have the app spit out "file not found" or "could not connect to service" and move on because we have deadlines and managers don't think empowering the user to solve their own problems is an important feature to put in the requirements list.
But "the user doesn't need to know this" is far more often a convenient excuse for malicious business models to capture users in a walled garden: don't allow them to download photos or video, don't allow them to copy and paste text, don't allow them to use other software to interoperate because then they might (gasp!) block the ads for stupid shit they don't need. Last night my friend asked why the video quality for the streaming service was bad, and the technical reason is all sorts of issues. But every one of those issues could be solved by letting empowering the user to download the full video to your computer. The entire streaming model exists to maintain full control over the video it has to, unfortunately, actually share with you.
The reason the video quality sucks is capitalism.
The article is dead on when they point out the intent is to normalize this bullying. Bootlickers immediately say "but they have to show ads, you just want free stuff" without realizing that it's the opposite: there is not a single billion-dollar tech company today that could exist without free open source software or the unpaid labor of its user base. We write product reviews and the infrastructure software and capitalism lets us intensely watch the 5 second timer until we can press the skip ad button while telling us this is the only way it can be.
posted by AlSweigart at 4:12 AM on May 27 [30 favorites]
This is true, but the article is also true in that most modern software intentionally hides the details and makes it impossible to find. Part of this is that this info can't help you ("Download Error (0x80070643)" gives you details but not the kind that can solve a problem) but this in turn is a result of software engineers writing error messages as though no one will read them: we just have the app spit out "file not found" or "could not connect to service" and move on because we have deadlines and managers don't think empowering the user to solve their own problems is an important feature to put in the requirements list.
But "the user doesn't need to know this" is far more often a convenient excuse for malicious business models to capture users in a walled garden: don't allow them to download photos or video, don't allow them to copy and paste text, don't allow them to use other software to interoperate because then they might (gasp!) block the ads for stupid shit they don't need. Last night my friend asked why the video quality for the streaming service was bad, and the technical reason is all sorts of issues. But every one of those issues could be solved by letting empowering the user to download the full video to your computer. The entire streaming model exists to maintain full control over the video it has to, unfortunately, actually share with you.
The reason the video quality sucks is capitalism.
The article is dead on when they point out the intent is to normalize this bullying. Bootlickers immediately say "but they have to show ads, you just want free stuff" without realizing that it's the opposite: there is not a single billion-dollar tech company today that could exist without free open source software or the unpaid labor of its user base. We write product reviews and the infrastructure software and capitalism lets us intensely watch the 5 second timer until we can press the skip ad button while telling us this is the only way it can be.
posted by AlSweigart at 4:12 AM on May 27 [30 favorites]
while telling us this is the only way it can be.
(I'm so glad we have public libraries. Today's bizzaro politics would make them impossible to make if they didn't already exist. If we lose them, we'll never get them back.)
posted by AlSweigart at 4:16 AM on May 27 [34 favorites]
(I'm so glad we have public libraries. Today's bizzaro politics would make them impossible to make if they didn't already exist. If we lose them, we'll never get them back.)
posted by AlSweigart at 4:16 AM on May 27 [34 favorites]
This guy reads like a techno utopian trying to square his innate feelings about computers (“they’re good! They make us free!”) with the actual experience of computers in 2024.
posted by The River Ivel at 4:19 AM on May 27 [4 favorites]
posted by The River Ivel at 4:19 AM on May 27 [4 favorites]
we just have the app spit out "file not found" or "could not connect to service" and move on
MS, as is its way, took even that tendency further than anybody ever should.
Something Happened - Windows 10 Failed to Install
posted by flabdablet at 4:27 AM on May 27 [2 favorites]
MS, as is its way, took even that tendency further than anybody ever should.
Something Happened - Windows 10 Failed to Install
posted by flabdablet at 4:27 AM on May 27 [2 favorites]
(WhatsApp) Okay, yeah, even as someone with user interface design experience I don't understand why they did this. It doesn't even feel intuitive, it just feels bad. Anyone else have a theory?
I think it's because long-pressing on a message puts the UI in a multi-select mode, where tapping additional messages adds them to the selection, ultimately enabling the user to perform the Delete operation on a batch of selected messages. In that model, it's the full message object that is selected, not the text or any segment of the text.
As a side effect of this UI change, the use-case of copying a segment of text gets demoted and becomes much more difficult than before, but I think it's a legitimate trade-off to get the multi-select functionality.
posted by june_dodecahedron at 4:31 AM on May 27 [3 favorites]
I think it's because long-pressing on a message puts the UI in a multi-select mode, where tapping additional messages adds them to the selection, ultimately enabling the user to perform the Delete operation on a batch of selected messages. In that model, it's the full message object that is selected, not the text or any segment of the text.
As a side effect of this UI change, the use-case of copying a segment of text gets demoted and becomes much more difficult than before, but I think it's a legitimate trade-off to get the multi-select functionality.
posted by june_dodecahedron at 4:31 AM on May 27 [3 favorites]
As a side effect of this UI change, the use-case of copying a segment of text gets demoted and becomes much more difficult than before, but I think it's a legitimate trade-off to get the multi-select functionality.
You could just have short-press select a single message, and then make that the context in which multiselect happens (or make it a long press when a message is already selected via short press, leaving normal long press functionality still available).
posted by Dysk at 4:57 AM on May 27 [4 favorites]
You could just have short-press select a single message, and then make that the context in which multiselect happens (or make it a long press when a message is already selected via short press, leaving normal long press functionality still available).
posted by Dysk at 4:57 AM on May 27 [4 favorites]
Accidental?
posted by Conrad-Casserole at 5:51 AM on May 27 [2 favorites]
posted by Conrad-Casserole at 5:51 AM on May 27 [2 favorites]
Is this where I scream about Apple Music (nee iTunes) some more? The app whose UI has gotten shittier with each release? I cannot imagine who uses the thing and likes it who has a musical taste that's any more complex than "spoon feed me a randomized set of songs i've heard before." So infuriating.
posted by seanmpuckett at 5:53 AM on May 27 [4 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 5:53 AM on May 27 [4 favorites]
The term "railroad" in this context derives not from the robber barons, but from video game level design. You can design an open plan that lets the player choose where to go and what order to explore different features, or you can design a narrow unbranching pathway. This "railroad" design is often disguised to try to fool players into thinking they are playing in an open world while in reality restricting their choices in order to make gameplay easy to predict and program for.
posted by rikschell at 5:57 AM on May 27 [5 favorites]
posted by rikschell at 5:57 AM on May 27 [5 favorites]
I bailed on TFA shortly after writer used "should" about software design, in conjunction with one of Ted Nelson's more off-the-wall pronouncements.
TFA describes an actual problem and completely fails to grasp that it is a problem (a complex of problems really) caused by market incentives.
posted by Aardvark Cheeselog at 6:45 AM on May 27 [3 favorites]
TFA describes an actual problem and completely fails to grasp that it is a problem (a complex of problems really) caused by market incentives.
posted by Aardvark Cheeselog at 6:45 AM on May 27 [3 favorites]
I'm still reading TFA, but that WhatsApp editing change might simply be part of their defenses against automated scraping and content theft. Eg - unauthorized use for training/feeding AI.
posted by Artful Codger at 7:19 AM on May 27 [1 favorite]
posted by Artful Codger at 7:19 AM on May 27 [1 favorite]
Artful Codger, what do you mean? Corporations purchasing people's Whatsapp accounts, which are relatively device-locked, and then manually copying data out of conversation threads?
posted by sagc at 7:25 AM on May 27 [3 favorites]
posted by sagc at 7:25 AM on May 27 [3 favorites]
Sorry, my ignorance of how WhatsApp actually works is showing. Now that I've looked it up.... [blush]. My apologies.
posted by Artful Codger at 7:44 AM on May 27 [1 favorite]
posted by Artful Codger at 7:44 AM on May 27 [1 favorite]
She lost me at the Dilbert citation.
Our previous building had normal lifts: you call a lift and, inside, select your floor. This building has a newer system: you go to a panel in the lobby and select your floor, the system then tells you the number of the lift that it has called for you.
I suspect this has nothing to do with intuitiveness, but with the need to shuttle more and more people up and down while saving money by not installing as many elevators.
She is referring to destination dispatch, which is significantly more efficient than traditional elevator controls, and really no less intuitive once you have used it.
posted by TedW at 8:09 AM on May 27 [10 favorites]
Our previous building had normal lifts: you call a lift and, inside, select your floor. This building has a newer system: you go to a panel in the lobby and select your floor, the system then tells you the number of the lift that it has called for you.
I suspect this has nothing to do with intuitiveness, but with the need to shuttle more and more people up and down while saving money by not installing as many elevators.
She is referring to destination dispatch, which is significantly more efficient than traditional elevator controls, and really no less intuitive once you have used it.
posted by TedW at 8:09 AM on May 27 [10 favorites]
The author of the article touches on a profound issue, then gives weird examples which don't really back it up. I mean, it *is* annoying when you click on description of a YouTube search result and can't copy the text (usually in trying to paste it into a translator app). But that's just a boneheaded UI decision.
The more profound point he touches on is how information is segregated into "windows" and "apps" and "files" in the Window/Icon/Menu/Pointer paradigm. Over the years, people have sensed that there should be a better way, but nothing has really jelled. Some examples of attempts to give power and flexibility to users by processing information in non-linear ways:
--Microsoft's OLE and successors (so, so flaky and resource hungry)
--Apple's OpenDoc (too few use cases beyond "live stock quotes in your document")
--Apple's Services menu (powerful, especially when used with Automator, but universally ignored)
--The developer behind Nisus word processor created some code where you could (as an example) click on a vector graphic inside a document, and the original vector graphic would open in its original editor. Once the vector graphic was edited and saved, it would update automatically within the document. This was a fab idea which did not catch on. Would love to hear a postmortem on that.
--Appleworks enabled cross-app integration of abilities similar to Notion; so did long-dead Geoworks. Database in a word processor doc? Sure thing! Live spread sheet in a presentation doc? Why not! Editable text that can be treated like vector art. But of course!
--Microsoft for years touted their futuristic WinFS file system, where you could do advanced searches and file manipulation based on all sorts of content and metadata. For ten years I read excitedly about this shit in Computer Shopper magazine until I finally realized that everything Microsoft promised back then was just marketing and vaporware!
--Notion (probably one of the best and most useful examples of powerful things like having an actual spreadsheet inside a document, not just a text table)
I think in the future we'll have something like the computer in Star Trek: The Next Generation that takes a query and builds the code to execute it in real time. It will have flexible and battle-tested modules of code ready to go, and will be able to chain that code together sort of like piped Unix commands. It will be like AI now, but with huge guard rails. Or something.
posted by jabah at 8:40 AM on May 27 [3 favorites]
The more profound point he touches on is how information is segregated into "windows" and "apps" and "files" in the Window/Icon/Menu/Pointer paradigm. Over the years, people have sensed that there should be a better way, but nothing has really jelled. Some examples of attempts to give power and flexibility to users by processing information in non-linear ways:
--Microsoft's OLE and successors (so, so flaky and resource hungry)
--Apple's OpenDoc (too few use cases beyond "live stock quotes in your document")
--Apple's Services menu (powerful, especially when used with Automator, but universally ignored)
--The developer behind Nisus word processor created some code where you could (as an example) click on a vector graphic inside a document, and the original vector graphic would open in its original editor. Once the vector graphic was edited and saved, it would update automatically within the document. This was a fab idea which did not catch on. Would love to hear a postmortem on that.
--Appleworks enabled cross-app integration of abilities similar to Notion; so did long-dead Geoworks. Database in a word processor doc? Sure thing! Live spread sheet in a presentation doc? Why not! Editable text that can be treated like vector art. But of course!
--Microsoft for years touted their futuristic WinFS file system, where you could do advanced searches and file manipulation based on all sorts of content and metadata. For ten years I read excitedly about this shit in Computer Shopper magazine until I finally realized that everything Microsoft promised back then was just marketing and vaporware!
--Notion (probably one of the best and most useful examples of powerful things like having an actual spreadsheet inside a document, not just a text table)
I think in the future we'll have something like the computer in Star Trek: The Next Generation that takes a query and builds the code to execute it in real time. It will have flexible and battle-tested modules of code ready to go, and will be able to chain that code together sort of like piped Unix commands. It will be like AI now, but with huge guard rails. Or something.
posted by jabah at 8:40 AM on May 27 [3 favorites]
What a strange set of examples!
Not being able to select and copy whatever text you want from an app is annoying, sure.
But the elevators are, of course, designed that way so that the system can group people going to the same or nearby floors into one elevator, which is way more efficient than letting people just choose an elevator at random and thus gets people to their destination faster. You can argue that this is a good thing or a bad thing, but the author doesn't even seem to realize that this design serves a particular purpose. Maybe it should use more memorable symbols for each elevator though, instead of just a number.
The Google Docs loading icon seems completely fine to me. What would you want it to show you? It's a little loading icon that shows up sometimes for a few seconds. The reality is that Google probably doesn't really have a good estimate of how long it will be there for, nor could they tell you exactly what they are doing in real time (because it's happening several layers down and the information about what's happening would reach you around the same time whatever is happening it would be completed, rendering it entirely moot). Comparing Linux booting on your own computer to Google Sheets converting a document on a remote server doesn't make a lot of sense.
posted by ssg at 9:00 AM on May 27 [2 favorites]
Not being able to select and copy whatever text you want from an app is annoying, sure.
But the elevators are, of course, designed that way so that the system can group people going to the same or nearby floors into one elevator, which is way more efficient than letting people just choose an elevator at random and thus gets people to their destination faster. You can argue that this is a good thing or a bad thing, but the author doesn't even seem to realize that this design serves a particular purpose. Maybe it should use more memorable symbols for each elevator though, instead of just a number.
The Google Docs loading icon seems completely fine to me. What would you want it to show you? It's a little loading icon that shows up sometimes for a few seconds. The reality is that Google probably doesn't really have a good estimate of how long it will be there for, nor could they tell you exactly what they are doing in real time (because it's happening several layers down and the information about what's happening would reach you around the same time whatever is happening it would be completed, rendering it entirely moot). Comparing Linux booting on your own computer to Google Sheets converting a document on a remote server doesn't make a lot of sense.
posted by ssg at 9:00 AM on May 27 [2 favorites]
What I want of an interface:
posted by pracowity at 9:26 AM on May 27 [7 favorites]
- Track the functions I actually use.
- Offer to hide all the shit I don't care about.
- Have an obvious Show More Options button for edge cases, and then offer to add the selected edge case to the functions I actually use.
- Suggest new or popular functions that it could add to my menus, but let me turn that shit off if it gets annoying.
posted by pracowity at 9:26 AM on May 27 [7 favorites]
At work we talk about abstractions -- metaphors for what you want the computer to do that is also a stepping stone to get your work done -- and workflows, with the sense that a workflow is a sequence of stepping stones to get your work done.
None of that comes up here. Obvs some of it is clouded by putting adverts in front of eyeballs, and helping endless scrolling users to keep scrolling endlessly. Some is also broken by the actual users not feeding back what they want to do with the app to the product designers -- partially monetisation (classic "if you're not paying, you're the product, not the user"), partially conceit by the app designers.
Tyranny? Totalitarianism? You have the tools of production, right there, to make better apps, and a zillion YouTube guides you can't find or favourite to teach you...
posted by k3ninho at 10:14 AM on May 27 [1 favorite]
None of that comes up here. Obvs some of it is clouded by putting adverts in front of eyeballs, and helping endless scrolling users to keep scrolling endlessly. Some is also broken by the actual users not feeding back what they want to do with the app to the product designers -- partially monetisation (classic "if you're not paying, you're the product, not the user"), partially conceit by the app designers.
Tyranny? Totalitarianism? You have the tools of production, right there, to make better apps, and a zillion YouTube guides you can't find or favourite to teach you...
posted by k3ninho at 10:14 AM on May 27 [1 favorite]
When I have a door, the most important thing about it is that it be difficult to use. That's the point of a door, and the reason I wouldn't just have a doorway or similar empty opening. A door that doesn't say "fuck you" to someone or something has failed at its most essential function.
In other words, Norman Doors are the best doors. Don Norman and The Design of Everyday Things has a lot to answer for.
posted by surlyben at 10:28 AM on May 27 [4 favorites]
In other words, Norman Doors are the best doors. Don Norman and The Design of Everyday Things has a lot to answer for.
posted by surlyben at 10:28 AM on May 27 [4 favorites]
"An error occurred"
"abort, retry, fail?"
"bad command or filename"
The history of UI has lots of unhelpful examples to offer. Yes, error messages are UI. Not all users are incurious about what's happening under the hood, some of us have to fix our own situations in the boonies or otherwise isolated from "genius bars" or what have yez.
Meanwhile, I and many others need the ability to resize text in arbitrary apps. Otherwise we can't read the text or see the widgets, so we can't use the app. I have "almost perfect vision for [my] age" per last visit to eye doc. Others need the ability to use a screen-reader with arbitrary apps.
UI designers: please be an a11y
posted by Rev. Irreverent Revenant at 11:59 AM on May 27 [1 favorite]
"abort, retry, fail?"
"bad command or filename"
The history of UI has lots of unhelpful examples to offer. Yes, error messages are UI. Not all users are incurious about what's happening under the hood, some of us have to fix our own situations in the boonies or otherwise isolated from "genius bars" or what have yez.
Meanwhile, I and many others need the ability to resize text in arbitrary apps. Otherwise we can't read the text or see the widgets, so we can't use the app. I have "almost perfect vision for [my] age" per last visit to eye doc. Others need the ability to use a screen-reader with arbitrary apps.
UI designers: please be an a11y
posted by Rev. Irreverent Revenant at 11:59 AM on May 27 [1 favorite]
You have the tools of production, right there, to make better apps, and a zillion YouTube guides you can't find or favourite to teach you...
I think part of the issue, more than the specific complaints, is that you really can’t the way you could, say, 20 years ago.
YouTube, WhatsApp, and Google Sheets are all apps you basically must use to access certain content. You may be able to build your own app that interfaces with these services, or write some clever browser extension to tweak the UI, but in reality you probably can’t because you don’t have the expertise, you don’t have the time, you don’t want to risk having your Google or Facebook account get shut down, or you’re using one or more of these services for work and their security policies would forbid it and you’d get blamed for any malfunctions. And if anyone else tries, they are likely to get sued, you still might lose your account, and your boss still won’t allow you to use it.
So whether you think Google Sheets has too opaque a loading screen or too strictly follows the Excel UI or erred using JavaScript and not Lua as a scripting language, you’re basically stuck with it if that’s what your workplace or kid’s soccer team uses. And knowing about computers has switched from enabling you to fix issues like this to meaning, basically, seeing how frustrating it is that you can’t.
posted by smelendez at 12:05 PM on May 27 [3 favorites]
I think part of the issue, more than the specific complaints, is that you really can’t the way you could, say, 20 years ago.
YouTube, WhatsApp, and Google Sheets are all apps you basically must use to access certain content. You may be able to build your own app that interfaces with these services, or write some clever browser extension to tweak the UI, but in reality you probably can’t because you don’t have the expertise, you don’t have the time, you don’t want to risk having your Google or Facebook account get shut down, or you’re using one or more of these services for work and their security policies would forbid it and you’d get blamed for any malfunctions. And if anyone else tries, they are likely to get sued, you still might lose your account, and your boss still won’t allow you to use it.
So whether you think Google Sheets has too opaque a loading screen or too strictly follows the Excel UI or erred using JavaScript and not Lua as a scripting language, you’re basically stuck with it if that’s what your workplace or kid’s soccer team uses. And knowing about computers has switched from enabling you to fix issues like this to meaning, basically, seeing how frustrating it is that you can’t.
posted by smelendez at 12:05 PM on May 27 [3 favorites]
Being or feeling railroaded by UI designs is everywhere, but in this case it seems like the complaint is more about GUI. Personally I would just as soon watch a spinning graphic as a list of cryptic processes. I would also change it to the deliberate tyranny of interfaces as it is nudge behaviour on steroids to feed the endless data and advertising beast.Did I ever notice it recently my first time setting up a Windows 11 computer. It took so much longer and caused so much frustration because Microsoft all but tries to force you to do it their way and then makes it ridiculously difficult if you want to do it differently. No, I don't want to be permanently signed into an MS account, I want a local account. No, I don't want everything cluttered with 20 MS apps and services I won't use. I really don't want every bit of data shared. You can turn off telemetry, but you have to do it one by one by one. Even then, it's only the surface stuff; you can download programs that will block a lot deeper telemetry, but then you get into what was mentioned above, Windows tried to update and something happened. It really does start feeling a little totalitarian or least like being conditioned to it.
posted by blue shadows at 11:43 PM on May 27 [2 favorites]
posted by blue shadows at 11:43 PM on May 27 [2 favorites]
smelendez: I think part of the issue, more than the specific complaints, is that you really can’t the way you could, say, 20 years ago.
YouTube, WhatsApp, and Google Sheets are all apps you basically must use to access certain content. You may be able to build your own app that interfaces with these services, or write some clever browser extension to tweak the UI, but in reality you probably can’t because you don’t have the expertise, you don’t have the time, you don’t want to risk having your Google or Facebook account get shut down, or you’re using one or more of these services for work and their security policies would forbid it and you’d get blamed for any malfunctions.
I get the principle, I think it's a glib response by me to say "comrade, you can make your own alternative."
Most of those objections you raise aren't about building your own -- we knew about being locked in to what everyone else is using by the Network Effect and the menace of "Industry Standard Compatible" applications that got Microsoft sued for anti-trust violations for Office and Windows/Internet Explorer bundling. Like being made to use what social or work contacts use, whether you had time or experience/expertise 20 years ago is a wash, isn't it?
But specifically, 20 years ago instant messaging. was interoperable and the XML-based standard, XMPP, has free-at-point-of-use libraries that Facebook Messaging and WhatsApp are built from. 20 years ago anti-trust litigation had punished Microsoft for browser and office-suite monopolies, but (now LibreOffice and also Apache) OpenOffice.org hadn't yet stabilised and MS "Office Open XML" file formats were newly released -- the very thing that makes Google Sheets and MS Excel reasonably interoperable. 20 years ago we thought that the "walled gardens" of AOL, MSN and Compuserve were gone forever in the interoperable web, because 20 years ago, an app-centric closed mobile ecosystem (now called "feature phones") was a weak failure in contrast to mobile web browsers and Responsive Web design when 3G mobile arrived. In terms of building cross-platforn tools, QT and GNOME's GLib were well-estsblished 20 years ago and iPhone/IPad/iOS weren't around (and the thing that became Android was gestating after Rubin left the company that made the Sidekick).
Jumping back to in reality you probably can’t because you don’t have the expertise, you don’t have the time, the other gap created in the last 20 years is this lack of technical knowledge that means people write critiques of UI without understanding the technology, business and workplace reward schemes that drive designers to offer specific paths to use the apps they don't charge us (at point of use) to use.
posted by k3ninho at 12:16 AM on May 28 [1 favorite]
YouTube, WhatsApp, and Google Sheets are all apps you basically must use to access certain content. You may be able to build your own app that interfaces with these services, or write some clever browser extension to tweak the UI, but in reality you probably can’t because you don’t have the expertise, you don’t have the time, you don’t want to risk having your Google or Facebook account get shut down, or you’re using one or more of these services for work and their security policies would forbid it and you’d get blamed for any malfunctions.
I get the principle, I think it's a glib response by me to say "comrade, you can make your own alternative."
Most of those objections you raise aren't about building your own -- we knew about being locked in to what everyone else is using by the Network Effect and the menace of "Industry Standard Compatible" applications that got Microsoft sued for anti-trust violations for Office and Windows/Internet Explorer bundling. Like being made to use what social or work contacts use, whether you had time or experience/expertise 20 years ago is a wash, isn't it?
But specifically, 20 years ago instant messaging. was interoperable and the XML-based standard, XMPP, has free-at-point-of-use libraries that Facebook Messaging and WhatsApp are built from. 20 years ago anti-trust litigation had punished Microsoft for browser and office-suite monopolies, but (now LibreOffice and also Apache) OpenOffice.org hadn't yet stabilised and MS "Office Open XML" file formats were newly released -- the very thing that makes Google Sheets and MS Excel reasonably interoperable. 20 years ago we thought that the "walled gardens" of AOL, MSN and Compuserve were gone forever in the interoperable web, because 20 years ago, an app-centric closed mobile ecosystem (now called "feature phones") was a weak failure in contrast to mobile web browsers and Responsive Web design when 3G mobile arrived. In terms of building cross-platforn tools, QT and GNOME's GLib were well-estsblished 20 years ago and iPhone/IPad/iOS weren't around (and the thing that became Android was gestating after Rubin left the company that made the Sidekick).
Jumping back to in reality you probably can’t because you don’t have the expertise, you don’t have the time, the other gap created in the last 20 years is this lack of technical knowledge that means people write critiques of UI without understanding the technology, business and workplace reward schemes that drive designers to offer specific paths to use the apps they don't charge us (at point of use) to use.
posted by k3ninho at 12:16 AM on May 28 [1 favorite]
Did I ever notice it recently my first time setting up a Windows 11 computer. It took so much longer and caused so much frustration because Microsoft all but tries to force you to do it their way and then makes it ridiculously difficult if you want to do it differently. No, I don't want to be permanently signed into an MS account, I want a local account. No, I don't want everything cluttered with 20 MS apps and services I won't use. I really don't want every bit of data shared. You can turn off telemetry, but you have to do it one by one by one. Even then, it's only the surface stuff; you can download programs that will block a lot deeper telemetry, but then you get into what was mentioned above, Windows tried to update and something happened. It really does start feeling a little totalitarian or least like being conditioned to it.
Used to be that setting up Linux was hard and setting up Windows was easy. It's been the other way around since approximately the first release of Linux Mint, and yet it never will be the Year of Linux on the Desktop because when it comes to IT, almost everybody would rather hang onto the brand-name couch with the broken spring that pokes holes in their arse than replace it with that slightly scuffed but comfortable and fully adjustable freebie from the recycler's.
Microsoft's canalization game has been very strong for a long time. Getting Windows into a dominant position across the education sector was an absolute coup for them, from which Apple has since learned: iPads are now in all the schools that trained a generation not to see alternatives to Windows and MS Office.
MS's dominance of the corporate desktop sector is also pretty unshakable. Bean counters continue to pony up exorbitant seat licence fees for a promise of "support" that nine times out of ten amounts to nothing more useful than "turn it off and on again, and if that doesn't work, just reinstall it".
Those of us who looked at the monopolists' business practices twenty years ago and rushed eagerly to embrace the somewhat ramshackle alternatives available at the time have now had decades of enjoying the luxury of desktop installations that don't spy on us by design, don't advertise at us by design, and resist the efforts of third parties to do both of those things. And we look out at the state of the online world and shake our heads in bemusement. From where we sit, so much of the suffering associated with IT looks self-inflicted, so many of the rationales put forward in support of that self-infliction look transparently flimsy, and adopting a preferred brand of IT as part of an identity to the extent of getting all defensive about it is just sad.
So have a pop at me for victim-blaming, call me a member of the tech priesthood, say I'm out of touch with the ordinary punter, give me a serve for failing to meet the public where it is; I've heard it all before and it slides straight off at this point. I no longer care. If you'd rather keep pretending that the barely nixtamalized fuel corn being forced down your throat is delicious and nutritious even as you gag and choke on it, you do you. Love is, after all, blind. Not my flying circus, not my winged monkeys.
Free software is of course not perfect and never will be. In fact it's occasionally quite aggravating. But it's a completely different kind of aggravation from that experienced by those upon whom the monopolists are currently closing in the walls. Bending Linux to your will and making it do what you want can sometimes be challenging, but nowhere near as challenging as working out how to stop Microsoft or Apple from doing things to you that you absolutely don't want them to. And overcoming the challenges posed by Linux almost always involves learning new things about how your computer actually works, knowledge that almost always serves as a springboard for dealing with a wide variety of future challenges.
So if you do want to have a solid crack at learning the skills required to walk away from your corporate digital abusers, and you hit roadblocks that web search and experimentation aren't helping you find your way around, memail me. More than happy to help those who show signs of being willing to help themselves.
Come and join us! The air in the sunlit uplands is clear and the water sweet.
posted by flabdablet at 2:09 AM on May 28 [3 favorites]
Used to be that setting up Linux was hard and setting up Windows was easy. It's been the other way around since approximately the first release of Linux Mint, and yet it never will be the Year of Linux on the Desktop because when it comes to IT, almost everybody would rather hang onto the brand-name couch with the broken spring that pokes holes in their arse than replace it with that slightly scuffed but comfortable and fully adjustable freebie from the recycler's.
Microsoft's canalization game has been very strong for a long time. Getting Windows into a dominant position across the education sector was an absolute coup for them, from which Apple has since learned: iPads are now in all the schools that trained a generation not to see alternatives to Windows and MS Office.
MS's dominance of the corporate desktop sector is also pretty unshakable. Bean counters continue to pony up exorbitant seat licence fees for a promise of "support" that nine times out of ten amounts to nothing more useful than "turn it off and on again, and if that doesn't work, just reinstall it".
Those of us who looked at the monopolists' business practices twenty years ago and rushed eagerly to embrace the somewhat ramshackle alternatives available at the time have now had decades of enjoying the luxury of desktop installations that don't spy on us by design, don't advertise at us by design, and resist the efforts of third parties to do both of those things. And we look out at the state of the online world and shake our heads in bemusement. From where we sit, so much of the suffering associated with IT looks self-inflicted, so many of the rationales put forward in support of that self-infliction look transparently flimsy, and adopting a preferred brand of IT as part of an identity to the extent of getting all defensive about it is just sad.
So have a pop at me for victim-blaming, call me a member of the tech priesthood, say I'm out of touch with the ordinary punter, give me a serve for failing to meet the public where it is; I've heard it all before and it slides straight off at this point. I no longer care. If you'd rather keep pretending that the barely nixtamalized fuel corn being forced down your throat is delicious and nutritious even as you gag and choke on it, you do you. Love is, after all, blind. Not my flying circus, not my winged monkeys.
Free software is of course not perfect and never will be. In fact it's occasionally quite aggravating. But it's a completely different kind of aggravation from that experienced by those upon whom the monopolists are currently closing in the walls. Bending Linux to your will and making it do what you want can sometimes be challenging, but nowhere near as challenging as working out how to stop Microsoft or Apple from doing things to you that you absolutely don't want them to. And overcoming the challenges posed by Linux almost always involves learning new things about how your computer actually works, knowledge that almost always serves as a springboard for dealing with a wide variety of future challenges.
So if you do want to have a solid crack at learning the skills required to walk away from your corporate digital abusers, and you hit roadblocks that web search and experimentation aren't helping you find your way around, memail me. More than happy to help those who show signs of being willing to help themselves.
Come and join us! The air in the sunlit uplands is clear and the water sweet.
posted by flabdablet at 2:09 AM on May 28 [3 favorites]
In This Thread: tech nerds displaying the kind of ignorance of their own nerdiness that one normally sees only in politics nerds.
Politics nerds cannot understand how normal people (that is, the 98% who are not obsessed with politics and are therefore almost wholly ignorant) think about issues and voting and elections. Tech nerds cannot understand why the world insists on using inferior technology. They can mouth the words "network effects" but not really experience what is meant by that, what it means to people who aren't them.
Most people do not get the thrill of using the perfectly-crafted tool for exactly the purpose which justifies its existence. Most people are perfectly satisfied to have some shitty stamped-steel knife if they just want to cut something and don't care that it's not Solingen steel with a perfectly beveled edge. With respect to technology, this means that they do not bring the enthusiasm for computer-use that the tech nerd does. They have a task that needs being accomplished, and someone has provided them with a workflow (see upthread for that definition) to accomplish it, and that workflow uses tools that run on Windows. The "network effects" that you mention only to dismiss them are the reason why the tools run on Windows. That's the end of the story for why Linux will never rule the desktop. I mean, yes you can tell that narrative with an emphasis on the bean-counters but that's the wrong angle for illuminating why people do what they do.
@flabdabet, the reason the bean-counters like Windows over Linux is not the promise of "support," it's the promise of being able to hire MCSEs (or whatever they call that these days) instead of Linux gurus. Because when you say "... overcoming the challenges posed by Linux almost always involves learning new things about how your computer actually works" that is how you are identifying yourself. Because it's relatively easy to make MCSEs but finding Linux gurus is more like panning for gold. And the Network Effects ensure that the MCSEs are Good Enough to be getting by with. It's like bureaucracy: when you have a mission-critical task that you have to rely on ordinary mediocre people to accomplish, the solutions you come up with are ugly.
For the purpose of avoiding getting herded into walled gardens, for the normal person the best advice is "use the web site, not the app. If it could be a web site but isn't, and there's not some life-critical need, don't use the app."
posted by Aardvark Cheeselog at 7:03 AM on May 28 [6 favorites]
Politics nerds cannot understand how normal people (that is, the 98% who are not obsessed with politics and are therefore almost wholly ignorant) think about issues and voting and elections. Tech nerds cannot understand why the world insists on using inferior technology. They can mouth the words "network effects" but not really experience what is meant by that, what it means to people who aren't them.
Most people do not get the thrill of using the perfectly-crafted tool for exactly the purpose which justifies its existence. Most people are perfectly satisfied to have some shitty stamped-steel knife if they just want to cut something and don't care that it's not Solingen steel with a perfectly beveled edge. With respect to technology, this means that they do not bring the enthusiasm for computer-use that the tech nerd does. They have a task that needs being accomplished, and someone has provided them with a workflow (see upthread for that definition) to accomplish it, and that workflow uses tools that run on Windows. The "network effects" that you mention only to dismiss them are the reason why the tools run on Windows. That's the end of the story for why Linux will never rule the desktop. I mean, yes you can tell that narrative with an emphasis on the bean-counters but that's the wrong angle for illuminating why people do what they do.
@flabdabet, the reason the bean-counters like Windows over Linux is not the promise of "support," it's the promise of being able to hire MCSEs (or whatever they call that these days) instead of Linux gurus. Because when you say "... overcoming the challenges posed by Linux almost always involves learning new things about how your computer actually works" that is how you are identifying yourself. Because it's relatively easy to make MCSEs but finding Linux gurus is more like panning for gold. And the Network Effects ensure that the MCSEs are Good Enough to be getting by with. It's like bureaucracy: when you have a mission-critical task that you have to rely on ordinary mediocre people to accomplish, the solutions you come up with are ugly.
For the purpose of avoiding getting herded into walled gardens, for the normal person the best advice is "use the web site, not the app. If it could be a web site but isn't, and there's not some life-critical need, don't use the app."
posted by Aardvark Cheeselog at 7:03 AM on May 28 [6 favorites]
Come and join us! The air in the sunlit uplands is clear and the water sweet.
AI in everything was the last straw for me and a bunch of my middle-aged friends, and we've all adopted Linux. I've been using a Raspberry Pi 5 as my main desktop for 6 months now and I have a PineBook Pro Linux laptop. I rarely even bother turning on my Windows 10 desktop anymore unless I need to access some of the files on it.
posted by fimbulvetr at 7:44 AM on May 28 [2 favorites]
AI in everything was the last straw for me and a bunch of my middle-aged friends, and we've all adopted Linux. I've been using a Raspberry Pi 5 as my main desktop for 6 months now and I have a PineBook Pro Linux laptop. I rarely even bother turning on my Windows 10 desktop anymore unless I need to access some of the files on it.
posted by fimbulvetr at 7:44 AM on May 28 [2 favorites]
Most people are perfectly satisfied to have some shitty stamped-steel knife if they just want to cut something and don't care that it's not Solingen steel with a perfectly beveled edge.
Most people don't even get issued a shitty stamped-steel knife, they're just required to turn out perfect rectangular sheets all day even though nobody has ever felt moved to teach them what cutting even is.
So they get dragged indoors and sat down on the rubber puzzle mat and given a huge stack of double-wall corrugated cardboard and a pair of plastic safety scissors with the stiff yet wobbly plastic pivots and the too-small finger holes and the two-inch round-tipped blunt and bendy plastic blades, then made to feel it's their fault that the cut parts don't line up properly and the tools keep breaking and their hands hurt all day.
As I said above: if you're satisfied with that being your lot in life, and too frightened of being called a nerd to learn any different, you do you. But if you'd rather find out what a solid and stable worktable, a cutting mat, a steel straightedge and a utility knife are good for, it's never been easier to connect with people willing to show you.
For the purpose of avoiding getting herded into a walled garden, the first step is objecting to the smell of the meat-packing plant at the far end.
posted by flabdablet at 7:59 AM on May 28 [1 favorite]
Most people don't even get issued a shitty stamped-steel knife, they're just required to turn out perfect rectangular sheets all day even though nobody has ever felt moved to teach them what cutting even is.
So they get dragged indoors and sat down on the rubber puzzle mat and given a huge stack of double-wall corrugated cardboard and a pair of plastic safety scissors with the stiff yet wobbly plastic pivots and the too-small finger holes and the two-inch round-tipped blunt and bendy plastic blades, then made to feel it's their fault that the cut parts don't line up properly and the tools keep breaking and their hands hurt all day.
As I said above: if you're satisfied with that being your lot in life, and too frightened of being called a nerd to learn any different, you do you. But if you'd rather find out what a solid and stable worktable, a cutting mat, a steel straightedge and a utility knife are good for, it's never been easier to connect with people willing to show you.
For the purpose of avoiding getting herded into a walled garden, the first step is objecting to the smell of the meat-packing plant at the far end.
posted by flabdablet at 7:59 AM on May 28 [1 favorite]
Politics nerds cannot understand how normal people (that is, the 98% who are not obsessed with politics and are therefore almost wholly ignorant) think about issues and voting and elections. Tech nerds cannot understand why the world insists on using inferior technology.
As one who sits at the intersection of both those kinds of nerdery, I understand the normie attitude just fine. I'm not happy about it because it lends itself so perfectly to exploitation by the lying, delusional, psychopathic shitgibbons who have put themselves in charge of shaping our shared future, but I'm thoroughly familiar with it.
posted by flabdablet at 8:15 AM on May 28 [2 favorites]
As one who sits at the intersection of both those kinds of nerdery, I understand the normie attitude just fine. I'm not happy about it because it lends itself so perfectly to exploitation by the lying, delusional, psychopathic shitgibbons who have put themselves in charge of shaping our shared future, but I'm thoroughly familiar with it.
posted by flabdablet at 8:15 AM on May 28 [2 favorites]
I'm reading The Future by Naomi Alderman at present and it's hilariously on point to this thread.
posted by seanmpuckett at 8:17 AM on May 28 [2 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 8:17 AM on May 28 [2 favorites]
Linux is like an incredibly sharp knife but where the handle is made from scrap wood and duct tape.
posted by Pyry at 9:41 AM on May 28 [2 favorites]
posted by Pyry at 9:41 AM on May 28 [2 favorites]
I'm happy to hear someone else aghast that Google makes you pay for Youtube Premium before they'll let their app play while it doesn't have focus. It's something it's difficult to imagine the old Google, the one that decided you should be able to export your settings from any part of their site, doing.
posted by JHarris at 9:44 AM on May 28 [4 favorites]
posted by JHarris at 9:44 AM on May 28 [4 favorites]
All of the people in this thread claiming so confidently that they know what users want is awful. Is this what the democratization of technology done to us? Caused people to assume that because 90% of people don't know something it A. can't be important, and B. will never be?
Linux is like an incredibly sharp knife but where the handle is made from scrap wood and duct tape.
It used to be, but these days it really isn't, not if you're using Mint. There are still some issues with Linux to be sure--despite rhetoric to the contrary Broadcom devices are still a pain to get working under it, and Flatpaks are huge storage wastes--but a lot of the time things just work, and the times that they don't have lately been exceeded by how often they don't work under Windows.
AI in everything was the last straw for me and a bunch of my middle-aged friends, and we've all adopted Linux.
Surprisingly, after three decades, this attitude is spreading. Linux hit 4% market share lately, over 6% if you count Chromebooks. There's still a long ways to go, but it says something that it's gotten to this point.
posted by JHarris at 10:09 AM on May 28 [2 favorites]
Linux is like an incredibly sharp knife but where the handle is made from scrap wood and duct tape.
It used to be, but these days it really isn't, not if you're using Mint. There are still some issues with Linux to be sure--despite rhetoric to the contrary Broadcom devices are still a pain to get working under it, and Flatpaks are huge storage wastes--but a lot of the time things just work, and the times that they don't have lately been exceeded by how often they don't work under Windows.
AI in everything was the last straw for me and a bunch of my middle-aged friends, and we've all adopted Linux.
Surprisingly, after three decades, this attitude is spreading. Linux hit 4% market share lately, over 6% if you count Chromebooks. There's still a long ways to go, but it says something that it's gotten to this point.
posted by JHarris at 10:09 AM on May 28 [2 favorites]
the handle is made from scrap wood and duct tape
and consequently is strong and light, sits comfortably in the hand, and doesn't slip when the work gets sweaty.
posted by flabdablet at 10:17 AM on May 28 [3 favorites]
and consequently is strong and light, sits comfortably in the hand, and doesn't slip when the work gets sweaty.
posted by flabdablet at 10:17 AM on May 28 [3 favorites]
At home I play both (or all) ends of the OS game. My main computer is a Win 10 laptop, on which I currently run NO M$ apps, instead opting for open-source or community-developed things like OpenOffice, the GIMP, paint.net and Inkscape, Thunderbird, Firefox, etc etc. This laptop is from my work-from-home days when the Windows OS was pragmatically the best choice. My casual browse-anywhere thing is a cheap 8" Android tablet. I have a few old towers and laptops that are either dual-boot (win XP and Ubuntu) or pure Linux. And a raspberryPi server for home automation.
Asking most people to abandon M$ or Apple OSes and go pure Linux is a bit like asking them to sell up and move to a vegan co-op commune: there are MANY GOOD reasons to do so... but most people won't, regardless.
I do think the M$/Apple lock on home computing is being loosened. I can get lots done on my $150 Android tablet. My elderly Mom is now using a Chromebook and loves it. [echoing JHarris here]
Anyway, I just wanna suggest that it isn't black and white; you can get all the benefits of open-source applications that run on your closed-source commercial OSes, and you can squeeze more life out of old hardware by loading a Linux distro on them.
posted by Artful Codger at 10:26 AM on May 28 [2 favorites]
Asking most people to abandon M$ or Apple OSes and go pure Linux is a bit like asking them to sell up and move to a vegan co-op commune: there are MANY GOOD reasons to do so... but most people won't, regardless.
I do think the M$/Apple lock on home computing is being loosened. I can get lots done on my $150 Android tablet. My elderly Mom is now using a Chromebook and loves it. [echoing JHarris here]
Anyway, I just wanna suggest that it isn't black and white; you can get all the benefits of open-source applications that run on your closed-source commercial OSes, and you can squeeze more life out of old hardware by loading a Linux distro on them.
posted by Artful Codger at 10:26 AM on May 28 [2 favorites]
Broadcom devices are still a pain to get working under it
I mean, having to compile your wifi drivers from a 23 star GitHub repo is exactly what I mean by the duct tape handle.
posted by Pyry at 10:27 AM on May 28 [2 favorites]
I mean, having to compile your wifi drivers from a 23 star GitHub repo is exactly what I mean by the duct tape handle.
posted by Pyry at 10:27 AM on May 28 [2 favorites]
It depends, as with many things, on your distro. Broadcom chips are infuriatingly common, but there are official drivers. And not everything uses Broadcom; my alternate laptop, as it turns out, doesn't, and Linux runs like a breeze on it.
And things are slightly better than they used to be. The thing with networking in particular is the chicken-and-egg problem: you need internet access to get the proprietary drivers that you need for internet access. But at least now you can set your phone to tether mode and give your computer a way to download them with just a USB connection.
(Psst! The OS I'm really rooting for is Haiku! It's much further from mass adoption than Linux is, but oh, to be able to slide to that universe where Apple went that way instead of to NeXTSTEP!)
posted by JHarris at 10:42 AM on May 28 [3 favorites]
And things are slightly better than they used to be. The thing with networking in particular is the chicken-and-egg problem: you need internet access to get the proprietary drivers that you need for internet access. But at least now you can set your phone to tether mode and give your computer a way to download them with just a USB connection.
(Psst! The OS I'm really rooting for is Haiku! It's much further from mass adoption than Linux is, but oh, to be able to slide to that universe where Apple went that way instead of to NeXTSTEP!)
posted by JHarris at 10:42 AM on May 28 [3 favorites]
Redox is another fairly ambitious OS project worth keeping an eye on.
posted by flabdablet at 11:16 AM on May 28 [3 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 11:16 AM on May 28 [3 favorites]
JHarris: Broadcom devices are still a pain to get working under it
Pyry: I mean, having to compile your wifi drivers from a 23 star GitHub repo is exactly what I mean by the duct tape handle.
There's a git repo of blobs and scripts to collate and install these in a now-standard firmware directory and to include them in your initial ram disk. Even free/libre specialists Debian ship firmware packages with their installer, and they've been doing that for over a year now.
Thank f_ck it's not 2014 any more.
posted by k3ninho at 11:36 AM on May 28 [2 favorites]
Pyry: I mean, having to compile your wifi drivers from a 23 star GitHub repo is exactly what I mean by the duct tape handle.
There's a git repo of blobs and scripts to collate and install these in a now-standard firmware directory and to include them in your initial ram disk. Even free/libre specialists Debian ship firmware packages with their installer, and they've been doing that for over a year now.
Thank f_ck it's not 2014 any more.
posted by k3ninho at 11:36 AM on May 28 [2 favorites]
Yeah, I mean, explain that to someone trying to install Linux on their own. I am one of the few people within five miles of my location that wouldn't be sent into the screaming meemies upon exposure to the phrase "git repo of blobs," and yet it even gives me pause. I recently had cause to install Debian on more than one machines with Broadcom chips, and while I got them working, it is still not turnkey. One of the machines I had to search through old forum threads like in Olden Times.
posted by JHarris at 2:26 PM on May 28 [3 favorites]
posted by JHarris at 2:26 PM on May 28 [3 favorites]
Look for all you claim to understand the normie mindset it seems like the main part you don't understand is that computers are not our job. Our JOB is our job, and it takes up all the hours of our fucking life. We do not wish to acquire a second job, of all of the "doing linux" stuff detailed in the comments above, where we do a bunch of computer things for free, in our very small free time, in addition to our regular job where we wouldn't be allowed to use the damn Linux thing anyway.
I have this argument with the developer folks at my actual job all the time; the reason I'm not tricking out my workspace and maximizing all of my computer stuff the way they do is because computer is their job. My job is a different job from that. If someone gives me a Linux machine I will use it just the same as any other laptop I have but building a laptop is not my job.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 7:33 AM on May 29 [6 favorites]
I have this argument with the developer folks at my actual job all the time; the reason I'm not tricking out my workspace and maximizing all of my computer stuff the way they do is because computer is their job. My job is a different job from that. If someone gives me a Linux machine I will use it just the same as any other laptop I have but building a laptop is not my job.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 7:33 AM on May 29 [6 favorites]
That can go too far, though - I've met lots of people who are worse at their actual jobs because they, say, don't know how to use keyboard shortcuts, or spreadsheets, or file systems. And it's hard to train, because people don't think of their computers as tools they can learn, but as magic boxes they interact with.
posted by sagc at 7:40 AM on May 29 [4 favorites]
posted by sagc at 7:40 AM on May 29 [4 favorites]
Using a computer IS a literacy that many jobs require, and like typing, it should be taught to anyone for whom the computer is an essential part of their job.
But I agree that building/maintaining a computer is out of scope there, and most companies have IT departments who manage that. You don't have to be a mechanic to drive a vehicle.
posted by Artful Codger at 8:38 AM on May 29 [1 favorite]
But I agree that building/maintaining a computer is out of scope there, and most companies have IT departments who manage that. You don't have to be a mechanic to drive a vehicle.
posted by Artful Codger at 8:38 AM on May 29 [1 favorite]
it seems like the main part you don't understand is that computers are not our job. Our JOB is our job, and it takes up all the hours of our fucking life.
This is obvious to everybody. As is the extreme rarity of being given any choice at all about the tools with which one is required to perform that job.
What seems to be far less obvious is that expressing dissatisfaction with a culture's tendency to create and rely upon learned helplessness does not amount to failing to understand that culture, nor the reasons for that tendency, nor the pathways by which it operates, nor who benefits from its operation.
If someone gives me a Linux machine I will use it just the same as any other laptop I have
No employer ever will give you a Linux machine, though. Which is the point.
but building a laptop is not my job
Setting up a laptop, though, is a task that anybody who acquires one for personal use has to perform to some extent, even if all it consists of is walking through the steps provided by the vendor and relying totally on whatever applications the vendor has preinstalled. And we're at a stage in the evolution of culture and technology where blind trust in device vendors to make that setup as easy as it could be, and the result of performing it as useful to the device owner as it could be, is completely unwarranted.
When using our personal devices, we do not have to tolerate being spied upon, advertised at or threatened by ransomware and identity theft, or having our movie collection arbitrarily yoinked out from under us, or being coerced into agreeing not to sue our vendors over data breaches, or any of the rest of the digital insults that are now routine and commonplace. We can, should we choose to, invest enough time in learning about how our devices work and the options they make available to us to let us sidestep all of that crap.
Most people don't choose to invest that time and effort because most people are simply not curious about any of these issues until personally bitten by them and because other people being bitten on the regular is simply accepted as normal.
As one whose own curiosity has always been wide-ranging and amorphous this saddens me, not because I fail to understand why other people's curiosity doesn't work the same way mine does, but because I have directly relevant professional experience with helping people deal with the consequences of being so bitten and I have seen again and again how much time and grief those bitings cost.
My viewpoint is akin to that of somebody whose job has included caring for people who have been mown down while crossing roads that they've never been shown they even could look both ways before stepping onto. It's not about a lack of understanding, it's about a heightened understanding of what those trucks weigh and how fast they go and how little the people driving them care about the fates of mere pedestrians.
posted by flabdablet at 8:42 AM on May 29 [3 favorites]
This is obvious to everybody. As is the extreme rarity of being given any choice at all about the tools with which one is required to perform that job.
What seems to be far less obvious is that expressing dissatisfaction with a culture's tendency to create and rely upon learned helplessness does not amount to failing to understand that culture, nor the reasons for that tendency, nor the pathways by which it operates, nor who benefits from its operation.
If someone gives me a Linux machine I will use it just the same as any other laptop I have
No employer ever will give you a Linux machine, though. Which is the point.
but building a laptop is not my job
Setting up a laptop, though, is a task that anybody who acquires one for personal use has to perform to some extent, even if all it consists of is walking through the steps provided by the vendor and relying totally on whatever applications the vendor has preinstalled. And we're at a stage in the evolution of culture and technology where blind trust in device vendors to make that setup as easy as it could be, and the result of performing it as useful to the device owner as it could be, is completely unwarranted.
When using our personal devices, we do not have to tolerate being spied upon, advertised at or threatened by ransomware and identity theft, or having our movie collection arbitrarily yoinked out from under us, or being coerced into agreeing not to sue our vendors over data breaches, or any of the rest of the digital insults that are now routine and commonplace. We can, should we choose to, invest enough time in learning about how our devices work and the options they make available to us to let us sidestep all of that crap.
Most people don't choose to invest that time and effort because most people are simply not curious about any of these issues until personally bitten by them and because other people being bitten on the regular is simply accepted as normal.
As one whose own curiosity has always been wide-ranging and amorphous this saddens me, not because I fail to understand why other people's curiosity doesn't work the same way mine does, but because I have directly relevant professional experience with helping people deal with the consequences of being so bitten and I have seen again and again how much time and grief those bitings cost.
My viewpoint is akin to that of somebody whose job has included caring for people who have been mown down while crossing roads that they've never been shown they even could look both ways before stepping onto. It's not about a lack of understanding, it's about a heightened understanding of what those trucks weigh and how fast they go and how little the people driving them care about the fates of mere pedestrians.
posted by flabdablet at 8:42 AM on May 29 [3 favorites]
You don't have to be a mechanic to drive a vehicle.
Indeed you don't. But having enough mechanical knowledge to understand the value of checking your fluid levels and tyre pressures can save you thousands, and having enough IT knowledge never to trust sparkling cruise control sold to you as "full self-driving" can save your life.
posted by flabdablet at 8:55 AM on May 29 [3 favorites]
Indeed you don't. But having enough mechanical knowledge to understand the value of checking your fluid levels and tyre pressures can save you thousands, and having enough IT knowledge never to trust sparkling cruise control sold to you as "full self-driving" can save your life.
posted by flabdablet at 8:55 AM on May 29 [3 favorites]
Our JOB is our job, and it takes up all the hours of our fucking life. We do not wish to acquire a second job, of all of the "doing linux" stuff detailed in the comments above, where we do a bunch of computer things for free, in our very small free time, in addition to our regular job where we wouldn't be allowed to use the damn Linux thing anyway.
Understood, and that's fine... except you're going to get that kind of problem no matter what OS or computer or device or toaster you run, in one form or other, period.
It just goes by different names, and is inflicted upon the user for different reasons, and these days those reasons are often monetary. On Linux it's getting all your hardware working; on Windows, it's removing all of the crap the manufacturer put on the machine, and reclaiming your user folders from OneDrive (if you even know how to do that), and turning off CoPilot, and putting up with ads for Office during the set up process, and more than that. Apple's devices are the only ones where this is even slightly avoidable, and I'd say that even there, given recent decisions, it's still just a little avoidable, considering that they have their own paid services that they have an interest in steering the user into buying.
posted by JHarris at 11:32 AM on May 29 [3 favorites]
Understood, and that's fine... except you're going to get that kind of problem no matter what OS or computer or device or toaster you run, in one form or other, period.
It just goes by different names, and is inflicted upon the user for different reasons, and these days those reasons are often monetary. On Linux it's getting all your hardware working; on Windows, it's removing all of the crap the manufacturer put on the machine, and reclaiming your user folders from OneDrive (if you even know how to do that), and turning off CoPilot, and putting up with ads for Office during the set up process, and more than that. Apple's devices are the only ones where this is even slightly avoidable, and I'd say that even there, given recent decisions, it's still just a little avoidable, considering that they have their own paid services that they have an interest in steering the user into buying.
posted by JHarris at 11:32 AM on May 29 [3 favorites]
Most people don't choose to invest that time and effort because most people are simply not curious about any of these issues
Once again I am begging people to understand that "being exhausted and deeply short on time" is not the same thing as being incurious.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 7:13 PM on May 29 [2 favorites]
Once again I am begging people to understand that "being exhausted and deeply short on time" is not the same thing as being incurious.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 7:13 PM on May 29 [2 favorites]
Sure, but there are also a lot of people out there who just aren't curious about the tools they use. It's a spectrum, with "no curiosity about computers" at one end, "less curiosity than spare time" in the middle, and fladablet at the other end. Both people who just don't have the bandwidth, and people who simply wouldn't care even given infinite time and resource, both types exist.
posted by Dysk at 11:28 PM on May 29 [3 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 11:28 PM on May 29 [3 favorites]
"being exhausted and deeply short on time" is not the same thing as being incurious
Indeed it's not, despite the observable fact that either of those things can be the main contributor to the other.
Once again I am encouraging people to understand that anybody who has the time and cognitive capacity to engage with discussions on Metafilter has the option of using some of those resources to inquire into the nature of the machinery they're using to do that, and that time invested in doing so pays off in saved time and avoided aggravation down the track.
posted by flabdablet at 11:28 PM on May 29 [2 favorites]
Indeed it's not, despite the observable fact that either of those things can be the main contributor to the other.
Once again I am encouraging people to understand that anybody who has the time and cognitive capacity to engage with discussions on Metafilter has the option of using some of those resources to inquire into the nature of the machinery they're using to do that, and that time invested in doing so pays off in saved time and avoided aggravation down the track.
posted by flabdablet at 11:28 PM on May 29 [2 favorites]
I would posit that that depends on the machine in question. If you're perusing from your phone on a work break for example, there's a limit to what you can do a lot of the time regardless of knowledge, and there's much less potential to save time and hassle down the line.
posted by Dysk at 12:48 AM on May 30 [2 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 12:48 AM on May 30 [2 favorites]
Yeah, phones and tablets suck. Main reason I retired from the best job I ever had (part-time primary-school IT technician/netadmin) is because those foul little glued-shut walled-garden fondleslab horrors were making serious inroads into school IT to the point where there was serious discussion about getting rid of the desktop and laptop machines altogether, and I couldn't find it within myself to be an enabler for that.
posted by flabdablet at 1:07 AM on May 30 [3 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 1:07 AM on May 30 [3 favorites]
Related: The decline of the user interface [Nick Hodges in Infoworld]
posted by chavenet at 12:36 PM on May 30 [2 favorites]
posted by chavenet at 12:36 PM on May 30 [2 favorites]
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