Spying, hacking and intimidation: Israel’s nine-year ‘war’ on the ICC
May 28, 2024 8:32 AM Subscribe
“You should help us and let us take care of you. You don’t want to be getting into things that could compromise your security or that of your family.” An investigation by the Guardian and the Israeli-based magazines +972 and Local Call details an almost decade-long secret “war” against the International Criminal Court.
"Sources with knowledge of an ICC review into the incident said that while it was not possible to identify the men, or fully establish their motives, it was concluded that Israel was likely to be signalling to the prosecutor that it knew where [ICC chief prosecutor Fatou Bensouda] lived."
I'm trying to decide if Israel is currently operating more as a rogue state or as a criminal organization. Israel's "nice life you have; shame if anything happened to it" approach is nudging me toward the latter, but its origins and statal behavior make a compelling argument for the former.
(insert "why not both?" gif)
posted by the sobsister at 9:07 AM on May 28 [18 favorites]
I'm trying to decide if Israel is currently operating more as a rogue state or as a criminal organization. Israel's "nice life you have; shame if anything happened to it" approach is nudging me toward the latter, but its origins and statal behavior make a compelling argument for the former.
(insert "why not both?" gif)
posted by the sobsister at 9:07 AM on May 28 [18 favorites]
I read this earlier today. I guess no one’s surprised that Israel and the US never ratified the Rome treaty. There are valid concerns about the ICC, but those are mostly about it pursuing smaller states while failing to hold powerful ones to account. This sort of nonsense is not making the world love the US or Israel any more.
posted by caviar2d2 at 9:09 AM on May 28 [4 favorites]
posted by caviar2d2 at 9:09 AM on May 28 [4 favorites]
I'm trying to decide if Israel is currently operating more as a rogue state or as a criminal organization.
Israel is a rogue state. The Likud party is a criminal organization.
posted by Faint of Butt at 9:42 AM on May 28 [43 favorites]
Israel is a rogue state. The Likud party is a criminal organization.
posted by Faint of Butt at 9:42 AM on May 28 [43 favorites]
You can pair this with a slightly earlier Guardian piece too: Decades of spying and repression: the anti-Palestinian origins of American Islamophobia -
It’s often assumed that Islamophobia is the driving force behind US anti-Palestinian bigotry. In fact, it’s the other way around
As for the current ICC Prosecutor, his interviews have been shared in the current Gaza thread where he's also made some references where Western politicians have outrightly said the purpose for the ICC is not for taking Western leaders into account, the most recent one being on the Sunday Times (mefi comment with excerpts)
Ah I see toastyk just posted the FPP story in the thread too, with the +972 coverage included.
posted by cendawanita at 9:45 AM on May 28 [16 favorites]
It’s often assumed that Islamophobia is the driving force behind US anti-Palestinian bigotry. In fact, it’s the other way around
As for the current ICC Prosecutor, his interviews have been shared in the current Gaza thread where he's also made some references where Western politicians have outrightly said the purpose for the ICC is not for taking Western leaders into account, the most recent one being on the Sunday Times (mefi comment with excerpts)
Ah I see toastyk just posted the FPP story in the thread too, with the +972 coverage included.
posted by cendawanita at 9:45 AM on May 28 [16 favorites]
he's also made some references where Western politicians have outrightly said the purpose for the ICC is not for taking Western leaders into account
an unnamed "senior elected leader"... told him "the ICC is for Africa and thugs like Putin, not Israel".posted by clawsoon at 10:08 AM on May 28 [8 favorites]
The US famously has a law that authorizes an actual military attack on the ICC should they detain any Americans.
posted by kickingtheground at 11:49 AM on May 28 [10 favorites]
posted by kickingtheground at 11:49 AM on May 28 [10 favorites]
Another said there was no hesitation internally over spying on the prosecutor, adding: “With Bensouda, she’s black and African, so who cares?”Israel not really doing the best job of convincing the world they're not a fundamentally racist state, here.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 12:07 PM on May 28 [15 favorites]
The thing i keep dwelling on, lately, which gets extra chilling when events like this foreground Israel's far-flung intelligence (and assassination) operations, is:
There are currently about six million Palestinians in diaspora. I assume Israel is hoping that if they genocide all the ones actually in Palestine, the diaspora will just … fade away or lose cohesiveness. But if they remain a people in diaspora, a people with a strong cultural identity that, among other things, crystallizes into its memory the fact of a genocide, what does Israel plan to do about them in the long term?
posted by adrienneleigh at 12:14 PM on May 28 [7 favorites]
There are currently about six million Palestinians in diaspora. I assume Israel is hoping that if they genocide all the ones actually in Palestine, the diaspora will just … fade away or lose cohesiveness. But if they remain a people in diaspora, a people with a strong cultural identity that, among other things, crystallizes into its memory the fact of a genocide, what does Israel plan to do about them in the long term?
posted by adrienneleigh at 12:14 PM on May 28 [7 favorites]
"Israel was likely to be signalling to the prosecutor that it knew where [ICC chief prosecutor Fatou Bensouda] lived."
Yikes.
posted by splitpeasoup at 12:31 PM on May 28
Yikes.
posted by splitpeasoup at 12:31 PM on May 28
Presumably, Israel banks on the prohibitive cost of the combination of six million plane tickets and AirBNB reservations - seeing as all the couches people could crash on are exploded and would be owned by dead people.
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 12:35 PM on May 28
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 12:35 PM on May 28
I'm trying to decide if Israel is currently operating more as a rogue state or as a criminal organization.
Like business enterprises, any sufficiently advanced state is functionally indistinguishable from a criminal organization, I think.
posted by ryanshepard at 1:14 PM on May 28 [8 favorites]
Like business enterprises, any sufficiently advanced state is functionally indistinguishable from a criminal organization, I think.
posted by ryanshepard at 1:14 PM on May 28 [8 favorites]
This bullshit should be treated as a complete confession of lack of complimentarity.
Israeli surveillance operatives were asked to find out which specific incidents might form part of a future ICC prosecution, multiple sources said, in order to enable Israeli investigative bodies to “open investigations retroactively” in the same cases.posted by away for regrooving at 1:17 PM on May 28 [3 favorites]
“If materials were transferred to the ICC, we had to understand exactly what they were, to ensure that the IDF investigated them independently and sufficiently so that they could claim complementarity,” one source explained.
It's become a popular observation that the premise of conservative political philosophy is that there must be those the law protects but does not bind, and those the law binds, but does not protect. When we look at the global scale, I think there's a clear pattern in Western nation's attitude towards international law.
posted by jy4m at 2:32 PM on May 28 [16 favorites]
posted by jy4m at 2:32 PM on May 28 [16 favorites]
Venezuela and the Cartel of the Sun, Putin's Russia, the DPRK, Likud's Israel...
I'd say the rise and prevalence of Kleptocracy is one of the most disturbing trends, but really it may be more of a regression to the mean of what states are.
What is interesting is the pure abandonment of ideology- the way that these states are shifting towards a raw, complacement nihilism with a tatter-thin veneer of populism and nationalism. But again, were the Middle Ages any different in that regard?
posted by LeRoienJaune at 5:45 PM on May 28 [3 favorites]
I'd say the rise and prevalence of Kleptocracy is one of the most disturbing trends, but really it may be more of a regression to the mean of what states are.
What is interesting is the pure abandonment of ideology- the way that these states are shifting towards a raw, complacement nihilism with a tatter-thin veneer of populism and nationalism. But again, were the Middle Ages any different in that regard?
posted by LeRoienJaune at 5:45 PM on May 28 [3 favorites]
The above comments am reminding me of a thing that I often encounter in my life in my side of the world: until lately, it's always been a popular talking point about how international law and conventions are a western imposition or import or bullying, and certainly that's true enough in how western entities use them (which lends credence to how the post-war order merely bought time before imperialism reasserts itself even as the configuration is different).
But a significant part of that history was very much a consequence of how postcolonial states (of which... I consider Israel as one - but I've long held there's no special particularity in the ideology or violence of their founding. Even their westernness yet backwardness makes them closer to Australia) advocated for such an order (eg the Universal Declaration of Human Rights was very much a story of postcolonial states asserting a new form of rights so colonialism isn't de facto), which dovetailed with the interests of newly former colonial states (eg the recognition of the rights of refugees fits very well in the Cold War order as an ideological point) as they recover economically (since they can't impose by gunboat diplomacy and mercantilism yet).
This doesn't get talked about often enough, so cynics of the global south, who turns out to be beneficiaries of their respective kleptocracies or kakistocracies or monopolies, pick defeatism ("we're all just racists" or "we're all just crooks") rather than recommitment to the international order, preferring to see how it's practically used rather than how it's principally for (for us!).
Interesting to see, how western politicians fail their people, those who should be able to access to more rights and power (comparative and relative) has also begun the mental process of washing their hands off. It's just a given a state like Israel will continue to be an ally.
posted by cendawanita at 6:31 PM on May 28 [9 favorites]
But a significant part of that history was very much a consequence of how postcolonial states (of which... I consider Israel as one - but I've long held there's no special particularity in the ideology or violence of their founding. Even their westernness yet backwardness makes them closer to Australia) advocated for such an order (eg the Universal Declaration of Human Rights was very much a story of postcolonial states asserting a new form of rights so colonialism isn't de facto), which dovetailed with the interests of newly former colonial states (eg the recognition of the rights of refugees fits very well in the Cold War order as an ideological point) as they recover economically (since they can't impose by gunboat diplomacy and mercantilism yet).
This doesn't get talked about often enough, so cynics of the global south, who turns out to be beneficiaries of their respective kleptocracies or kakistocracies or monopolies, pick defeatism ("we're all just racists" or "we're all just crooks") rather than recommitment to the international order, preferring to see how it's practically used rather than how it's principally for (for us!).
Interesting to see, how western politicians fail their people, those who should be able to access to more rights and power (comparative and relative) has also begun the mental process of washing their hands off. It's just a given a state like Israel will continue to be an ally.
posted by cendawanita at 6:31 PM on May 28 [9 favorites]
I was super confused for a minute on what this had to do with Dallas (972 area code) before I realized that it was Israel's country code. Oof.
posted by LizBoBiz at 7:20 PM on May 28 [1 favorite]
posted by LizBoBiz at 7:20 PM on May 28 [1 favorite]
Rami Ayari shared an anecdote (he's a journalist on the UN beat):
I produced a sit down interview with former #ICC Chief Prosecutor Fatou Bensouda in the summer of 2015 and thus had the chance to meet her. Earlier that year she had opened a preliminary examination into the situation in #Palestine. A significant portion of the interview focused on that topic and what it would take for it to be upgraded to a full fledged investigation. True to form, Israeli officials had wasted no time in saying they would not cooperate with her or her office. She told my colleague @Raed_Fakih that she hoped all sides would ultimately decide to cooperate but was determined to fulfill her mandate and examine the issue thoroughly either way. I remember thinking she was clear but cautious and now I realize she had good reason to be. Awful to think of the kind of pressure, threats and intimidation she was subjected to simply for trying to do her job.
posted by cendawanita at 9:35 PM on May 28 [2 favorites]
I produced a sit down interview with former #ICC Chief Prosecutor Fatou Bensouda in the summer of 2015 and thus had the chance to meet her. Earlier that year she had opened a preliminary examination into the situation in #Palestine. A significant portion of the interview focused on that topic and what it would take for it to be upgraded to a full fledged investigation. True to form, Israeli officials had wasted no time in saying they would not cooperate with her or her office. She told my colleague @Raed_Fakih that she hoped all sides would ultimately decide to cooperate but was determined to fulfill her mandate and examine the issue thoroughly either way. I remember thinking she was clear but cautious and now I realize she had good reason to be. Awful to think of the kind of pressure, threats and intimidation she was subjected to simply for trying to do her job.
posted by cendawanita at 9:35 PM on May 28 [2 favorites]
Palestinian Fadi Quran:
A side note on the @guardian and @972mag breaking story about Israel’s 9 year war on the ICC:
On a wet and cold Hague night a few years ago, as I returned to my hotel room and walked out of the elevator on my floor, someone with a cap appeared to have just walked out of my room.
Initially, it wasn’t clear if it was my room or the one next to it.
The person kept looking down as they walked towards me from down the hall, and then the other elevator next to mine opened, and someone walks out, also with a black hat on. He looked me in the eyes, then looked at the other person, and then they both got into elevator and left.
It was suspicious and a weird interaction, but I was tired, and oftentimes found some Northern European personal communication styles confusing (the lack of smiling, staring, passing without saying hello…etc) and so just went back to my room hoping this was just an awkward moment.
When I walked in, I found the papers in my bag laid out on the desk and my bag thrown on my bed. Fortunately I never left important materials behind, and the papers were public reports I had printed to read.
I then called hotel reception and told them someone had tried to steal my stuff, but they said the two guys wearing hats had walked out, and asked if they took anything. Nothing was stolen, but he said he’d inform the police and management.
It was a reminder that the Israeli military and political elite would go through extraordinary measures to block any form of justice.
This story is also a minuscule example of much worse intimidation and abuse tactics other colleagues have faced.
Yet I do not know any Palestinian working in this space who has backed down from pursuing justice due to Israel’s threats and intimidation tactics.
You can imagine the efforts Israel’s army and political leaders are putting in now - and the lengths they’ll go to.
This is why it’s so crucial we maintain our forward momentum in this struggle.
One way many of you can help is to
document and archive materials you come across related to Israeli war crimes. If you see videos or images of Israeli soldiers speaking about what they did in Gaza, save them just in case on your phone.
If there’s an event with Israeli spokespersons or soldiers in your community, document their names and when they say they served in Gaza and where they served.
There will be a concerted effort to hide or cover up or dilute evidence. Courts function based on detailed evidence, and one piece of information you happen to have could make a difference, if not now then in the future.
International justice mechanisms won’t free Palestine, but legal procedures can increase the costs of oppression, and in the future we’ll need these materials to prosecute justice.
posted by cendawanita at 11:18 PM on May 28 [6 favorites]
A side note on the @guardian and @972mag breaking story about Israel’s 9 year war on the ICC:
On a wet and cold Hague night a few years ago, as I returned to my hotel room and walked out of the elevator on my floor, someone with a cap appeared to have just walked out of my room.
Initially, it wasn’t clear if it was my room or the one next to it.
The person kept looking down as they walked towards me from down the hall, and then the other elevator next to mine opened, and someone walks out, also with a black hat on. He looked me in the eyes, then looked at the other person, and then they both got into elevator and left.
It was suspicious and a weird interaction, but I was tired, and oftentimes found some Northern European personal communication styles confusing (the lack of smiling, staring, passing without saying hello…etc) and so just went back to my room hoping this was just an awkward moment.
When I walked in, I found the papers in my bag laid out on the desk and my bag thrown on my bed. Fortunately I never left important materials behind, and the papers were public reports I had printed to read.
I then called hotel reception and told them someone had tried to steal my stuff, but they said the two guys wearing hats had walked out, and asked if they took anything. Nothing was stolen, but he said he’d inform the police and management.
It was a reminder that the Israeli military and political elite would go through extraordinary measures to block any form of justice.
This story is also a minuscule example of much worse intimidation and abuse tactics other colleagues have faced.
Yet I do not know any Palestinian working in this space who has backed down from pursuing justice due to Israel’s threats and intimidation tactics.
You can imagine the efforts Israel’s army and political leaders are putting in now - and the lengths they’ll go to.
This is why it’s so crucial we maintain our forward momentum in this struggle.
One way many of you can help is to
document and archive materials you come across related to Israeli war crimes. If you see videos or images of Israeli soldiers speaking about what they did in Gaza, save them just in case on your phone.
If there’s an event with Israeli spokespersons or soldiers in your community, document their names and when they say they served in Gaza and where they served.
There will be a concerted effort to hide or cover up or dilute evidence. Courts function based on detailed evidence, and one piece of information you happen to have could make a difference, if not now then in the future.
International justice mechanisms won’t free Palestine, but legal procedures can increase the costs of oppression, and in the future we’ll need these materials to prosecute justice.
posted by cendawanita at 11:18 PM on May 28 [6 favorites]
Looking forward to the tortured logic from the usual suspects how this is fine actually.
posted by Pyrogenesis at 11:32 PM on May 28 [5 favorites]
posted by Pyrogenesis at 11:32 PM on May 28 [5 favorites]
They'll have practice I suppose - Palestinian journalists reminded me something similar must surely had happened with Richard Goldstone: (SFGate) Israeli intimidation brings shift in Gaza report
Justice Richard Goldstone dropped a bombshell last week by appearing to repudiate parts of the 2009 report that bears his name.
The 575-page report, compiled under United Nations mandate by Goldstone and three highly esteemed experts, investigated 36 incidents during Israel's 2008-2009 assault on the Gaza Strip, including allegations of indiscriminate and disproportionate attack, illegal use of white phosphorous, using Palestinian civilians as human shields, and deliberate targeting of civilian infrastructure. The team concluded that Israel had launched "a deliberately disproportionate attack designed to punish, humiliate and terrorize a civilian population, radically diminish its local economic capacity both to work and to provide for itself, and to force upon it an ever increasing sense of dependency and vulnerability."
In response, Israel and its supporters shot the messenger. Justice Goldstone, although an admirer of Israel, suffered withering attack and ostracism. Leaders of his own South African Jewish community threatened to picket his grandson's bar mitzvah, should he attend. Still, for 18 months he stood his ground, publicly affirming the accuracy of the report. Now that he has buckled, Israeli politicians are crowing. Prime Minister Netanyahu claimed that "Everything we said was proved true," and demanded that the United Nations retract the Goldstone Report in whole.
There is no ground for that. The report is an officially approved United Nations document, and Goldstone is but one among four authors.
posted by cendawanita at 2:45 AM on May 29 [3 favorites]
Justice Richard Goldstone dropped a bombshell last week by appearing to repudiate parts of the 2009 report that bears his name.
The 575-page report, compiled under United Nations mandate by Goldstone and three highly esteemed experts, investigated 36 incidents during Israel's 2008-2009 assault on the Gaza Strip, including allegations of indiscriminate and disproportionate attack, illegal use of white phosphorous, using Palestinian civilians as human shields, and deliberate targeting of civilian infrastructure. The team concluded that Israel had launched "a deliberately disproportionate attack designed to punish, humiliate and terrorize a civilian population, radically diminish its local economic capacity both to work and to provide for itself, and to force upon it an ever increasing sense of dependency and vulnerability."
In response, Israel and its supporters shot the messenger. Justice Goldstone, although an admirer of Israel, suffered withering attack and ostracism. Leaders of his own South African Jewish community threatened to picket his grandson's bar mitzvah, should he attend. Still, for 18 months he stood his ground, publicly affirming the accuracy of the report. Now that he has buckled, Israeli politicians are crowing. Prime Minister Netanyahu claimed that "Everything we said was proved true," and demanded that the United Nations retract the Goldstone Report in whole.
There is no ground for that. The report is an officially approved United Nations document, and Goldstone is but one among four authors.
posted by cendawanita at 2:45 AM on May 29 [3 favorites]
Looking forward to the tortured logic from the usual suspects how this is fine actually.
Brett Stephens: war crimes are good actually.
posted by Artw at 6:42 AM on May 29 [6 favorites]
Brett Stephens: war crimes are good actually.
posted by Artw at 6:42 AM on May 29 [6 favorites]
There are currently about six million Palestinians in diaspora. I assume Israel is hoping that if they genocide all the ones actually in Palestine, the diaspora will just … fade away or lose cohesiveness. But if they remain a people in diaspora, a people with a strong cultural identity that, among other things, crystallizes into its memory the fact of a genocide, what does Israel plan to do about them in the long term?
It's so ironic it's painful.
posted by subdee at 7:08 AM on May 29 [5 favorites]
It's so ironic it's painful.
posted by subdee at 7:08 AM on May 29 [5 favorites]
Looking forward to the tortured logic from the usual suspects how this is fine actually.
Graeme Wood at the Atlantic: It is possible to kill children legally...But the sight of a legally killed child is no less disturbing than the sight of a murdered one.
Which I realize makes his point, in text form, and the article IS a criticism of Israel, albeit one that makes it sound like Israel's main problem is that their PR wasn't good enough.
posted by subdee at 7:20 AM on May 29 [2 favorites]
Graeme Wood at the Atlantic: It is possible to kill children legally...But the sight of a legally killed child is no less disturbing than the sight of a murdered one.
Which I realize makes his point, in text form, and the article IS a criticism of Israel, albeit one that makes it sound like Israel's main problem is that their PR wasn't good enough.
posted by subdee at 7:20 AM on May 29 [2 favorites]
Various international legal experts who saw the snippet about how a child can be legally killed have said variations of, "no you fucking can't" - but more diplomatically. Well, outside of those who works very hard to legitimize the kills - New Republic: The Scariest Unit in the Israeli Army Is Not an Elite Fighting Squad -
It’s the International Law Department, which gives the army permission to kill 15 to 20 civilians per combatant death and pastes a veneer of properness over IDF operations.
posted by cendawanita at 9:11 AM on May 29 [2 favorites]
It’s the International Law Department, which gives the army permission to kill 15 to 20 civilians per combatant death and pastes a veneer of properness over IDF operations.
posted by cendawanita at 9:11 AM on May 29 [2 favorites]
It's so ironic it's painful.
The only difference between oppressors and oppressed is historical opportunity - "never again" was always wishful thinking at best.
posted by ryanshepard at 10:15 AM on May 29
The only difference between oppressors and oppressed is historical opportunity - "never again" was always wishful thinking at best.
posted by ryanshepard at 10:15 AM on May 29
There's a difference between wishful and aspirational, and I rate the creation of the UN as a really important step along the way to turning Never Again from an aspiration into a reality.
We do not have to do what has always been done before. We can organize ourselves to do better.
posted by flabdablet at 10:21 AM on May 29 [8 favorites]
We do not have to do what has always been done before. We can organize ourselves to do better.
posted by flabdablet at 10:21 AM on May 29 [8 favorites]
"never again" was always wishful thinking at best.
I read a really good post on tumblr recently explaining how "never again" means something completely different to Jews living in Israel VS Jews living in the rest of the world... that to the diaspora it's "never again to anyone" but to Israeli Jews it's "never again to us" and when the phrase is generalized to other people besides the Jews, it's called out as antisemitic.
If I can find it I'll post it here, it was pretty interesting stuff.
posted by subdee at 10:48 AM on May 29 [5 favorites]
I read a really good post on tumblr recently explaining how "never again" means something completely different to Jews living in Israel VS Jews living in the rest of the world... that to the diaspora it's "never again to anyone" but to Israeli Jews it's "never again to us" and when the phrase is generalized to other people besides the Jews, it's called out as antisemitic.
If I can find it I'll post it here, it was pretty interesting stuff.
posted by subdee at 10:48 AM on May 29 [5 favorites]
but to Israeli Jews it's "never again to us" and when the phrase is generalized to other people besides the Jews, it's called out as antisemitic.
To relate it to something I understand better, they're hearing "never again" applied to everyone and taking offense in the same way that someone might take offense to "all lives matter"?
posted by clawsoon at 12:52 PM on May 29 [1 favorite]
To relate it to something I understand better, they're hearing "never again" applied to everyone and taking offense in the same way that someone might take offense to "all lives matter"?
posted by clawsoon at 12:52 PM on May 29 [1 favorite]
Pretty much. But running the parallel the other way, it's as if those objecting to "all lives matter" were not calling for the police to be reformed and/or demilitarized and/or defunded or even just made to obey the fucking law, but were instead supplying bombs to the Crips while insisting that being Black is the same as being a Crip and anybody who says different is racist.
posted by flabdablet at 1:34 PM on May 29 [2 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 1:34 PM on May 29 [2 favorites]
I think not exactly the same way... It's more like the reasoning behind Putin's invasion of Ukraine, the US can invade Iraq and get away with it but suddenly when we invade a traditional part of Russia where Russian speakers live it's war crimes?
With a side helping of, victims of the Holocaust were weak, we will not be weak victims, we will be strong.
I wish I could find the post, I'm sure I'm misrepresenting it a little. But basically it's stating that never again to anyone is a fantasy of rich comfortable people living elsewhere who don't have to be tough like Israel has to be, and that Israel will not be a nation of victims.
posted by subdee at 1:55 PM on May 29 [2 favorites]
With a side helping of, victims of the Holocaust were weak, we will not be weak victims, we will be strong.
I wish I could find the post, I'm sure I'm misrepresenting it a little. But basically it's stating that never again to anyone is a fantasy of rich comfortable people living elsewhere who don't have to be tough like Israel has to be, and that Israel will not be a nation of victims.
posted by subdee at 1:55 PM on May 29 [2 favorites]
Aha!! Found it:
https://thepencilriot.tumblr.com/post/751753470694080512
posted by subdee at 2:06 PM on May 29 [2 favorites]
https://thepencilriot.tumblr.com/post/751753470694080512
posted by subdee at 2:06 PM on May 29 [2 favorites]
But basically it's stating that never again to anyone is a fantasy of rich comfortable people living elsewhere who don't have to be tough like Israel has to be, and that Israel will not be a nation of victims.
Yeah, i mean, it should be noted that Israel as a whole really hates diaspora Jews and actual Holocaust survivors, and in both cases it's because they're considered "weak".
posted by adrienneleigh at 3:48 PM on May 29 [1 favorite]
Yeah, i mean, it should be noted that Israel as a whole really hates diaspora Jews and actual Holocaust survivors, and in both cases it's because they're considered "weak".
posted by adrienneleigh at 3:48 PM on May 29 [1 favorite]
Traits seen almost exclusively in abusers:
posted by flabdablet at 12:23 AM on May 30 [5 favorites]
- Contempt toward victims of abuse for being weak enough to abuse
- The belief that strength and abusiveness are the same thing
- The belief that some degree of abuse being inevitable somewhere makes their own abuses acceptable
- The belief that relative weakness justifies or even causes abuse
- The use of bizarrely contorted logic to defend those attitudes and beliefs
- Genuine outrage on having any of this horseshit called out for what it is.
posted by flabdablet at 12:23 AM on May 30 [5 favorites]
Guardian following up with getting some legal experts' comments: Israeli campaign against ICC may be ‘crimes against justice’, say legal experts -
International lawyers believe conduct of Israeli intelligence service should be investigated by prosecutor in The Hague
Specifically:
A senior Palestinian official, who asked not to be named in order to speak freely, said: “Tactics that have been used against Palestinians living under occupation have now been used against international officials from some of the world’s most important institutions. This investigation shows that Israel’s belief in its impunity now goes beyond Palestine’s borders.
“The international community now has two options. Either change course and protect international law and international institutions, or destroy the rules-based order for the sake of defending Israel.”
Imperial boomerang writ large.
posted by cendawanita at 8:35 AM on May 30 [2 favorites]
International lawyers believe conduct of Israeli intelligence service should be investigated by prosecutor in The Hague
Specifically:
A senior Palestinian official, who asked not to be named in order to speak freely, said: “Tactics that have been used against Palestinians living under occupation have now been used against international officials from some of the world’s most important institutions. This investigation shows that Israel’s belief in its impunity now goes beyond Palestine’s borders.
“The international community now has two options. Either change course and protect international law and international institutions, or destroy the rules-based order for the sake of defending Israel.”
Imperial boomerang writ large.
posted by cendawanita at 8:35 AM on May 30 [2 favorites]
Haaretz: How Israeli Security Nixed Haaretz's Report Into Alleged Mossad Extortion of International Court Prosecutor
One of the investigation's key findings would have been known to readers of Haaretz a long time ago if Israel was the democratic state it claims to be.
(...) In May 2022, Haaretz had hoped to publish this exact headline: that Israel acted to extort the prosecutor, through the Mossad, as part of an operation directed and personally lead by Cohen.
During the course of an investigation that lasted several months, Haaretz searched for an answer to the question of what the former head of the Mossad was seeking in three visits to the Congo in 2019, accompanied by billionaire Dan Gertler, who was also involved in the dubious operation, according to sources who spoke with Haaretz. Gertler even made his private plane available to fly Cohen to the African country.
The answer, according to several sources, was this: Gertler and Cohen traveled to meet Kabila as part of an operation whose goal was to recruit or extort the ICC prosecutor as she moved against Israel.
At the beginning of 2022, I attempted to contact the former prosecutor through a third party who knew her. Bensouda never responded to the approach, but days after the attempt, when I wanted to publish the story, my phone rang and on the other end of the line was the voice of a senior security official. "Can you come to see me tomorrow?" he asked.
At the entrance to the senior official's office, I was asked to deposit my mobile phone to prevent me from recording the conversation. In the room, another senior official from a different security agency was waiting for me. The conversation began with the words, "We understand you know about the prosecutor."
It was a polite conversation, a polite threat. The tone was calm, the content much less so. I was explained that if I publish the story, I would suffer the consequences and get to know the interrogation rooms of the Israeli security authorities from the inside. I argued against the use of security powers to prevent the publication of information whose harm is not security-related but rather reputational in nature, but to no avail.
In the end, it was made clear to me that even sharing the information "with my friends abroad," referring to foreign media outlets, would lead to the same results.
In May 2022, Haaretz reported on the highlights of Cohen's Congo trips, including the entanglements of the former Mossad head with the authorities there and the circumstances of his expulsion from the country. The fact that the trips were part of an operation to extort or recruit the prosecutor and disrupt the proceedings in The Hague was omitted.
(...) Disclosure: Gertler is suing Haaretz for defamation.
posted by cendawanita at 10:06 AM on May 30 [3 favorites]
One of the investigation's key findings would have been known to readers of Haaretz a long time ago if Israel was the democratic state it claims to be.
(...) In May 2022, Haaretz had hoped to publish this exact headline: that Israel acted to extort the prosecutor, through the Mossad, as part of an operation directed and personally lead by Cohen.
During the course of an investigation that lasted several months, Haaretz searched for an answer to the question of what the former head of the Mossad was seeking in three visits to the Congo in 2019, accompanied by billionaire Dan Gertler, who was also involved in the dubious operation, according to sources who spoke with Haaretz. Gertler even made his private plane available to fly Cohen to the African country.
The answer, according to several sources, was this: Gertler and Cohen traveled to meet Kabila as part of an operation whose goal was to recruit or extort the ICC prosecutor as she moved against Israel.
At the beginning of 2022, I attempted to contact the former prosecutor through a third party who knew her. Bensouda never responded to the approach, but days after the attempt, when I wanted to publish the story, my phone rang and on the other end of the line was the voice of a senior security official. "Can you come to see me tomorrow?" he asked.
At the entrance to the senior official's office, I was asked to deposit my mobile phone to prevent me from recording the conversation. In the room, another senior official from a different security agency was waiting for me. The conversation began with the words, "We understand you know about the prosecutor."
It was a polite conversation, a polite threat. The tone was calm, the content much less so. I was explained that if I publish the story, I would suffer the consequences and get to know the interrogation rooms of the Israeli security authorities from the inside. I argued against the use of security powers to prevent the publication of information whose harm is not security-related but rather reputational in nature, but to no avail.
In the end, it was made clear to me that even sharing the information "with my friends abroad," referring to foreign media outlets, would lead to the same results.
In May 2022, Haaretz reported on the highlights of Cohen's Congo trips, including the entanglements of the former Mossad head with the authorities there and the circumstances of his expulsion from the country. The fact that the trips were part of an operation to extort or recruit the prosecutor and disrupt the proceedings in The Hague was omitted.
(...) Disclosure: Gertler is suing Haaretz for defamation.
posted by cendawanita at 10:06 AM on May 30 [3 favorites]
Israel's Secret Undermining of the ICC to Derail War Crimes Charges (Democracy Now!, YouTube/Piped/Invidious, 19m53s)
"The Israeli investigations are not about securing justice, they're about obstructing justice." - Kenneth Roth, former head of Human Rights Watchposted by flabdablet at 11:52 AM on May 30 [3 favorites]
US state department falsified report absolving Israel on Gaza aid – ex-official
posted by Artw at 7:14 AM on May 31 [2 favorites]
posted by Artw at 7:14 AM on May 31 [2 favorites]
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