The RPG Campaign That Became A Novel
June 1, 2024 11:55 AM Subscribe
Many authors have written stories or novels inspired by RPG campaigns. There is debate about whether or not tabletop RPGs should be used as writing tools. Plenty of folks give the idea a thumbs-down, but save some room in your heart for the LitRPG. B&N has you covered with, of course, a list of novels that started life as RPGs.
P1: The Rule of Law
P2: The Dark Dimension
P3: The Chaos-Born Tiara
P4: The Paper Victory
P1: The Rule of Law
P2: The Dark Dimension
P3: The Chaos-Born Tiara
P4: The Paper Victory
The B&N list gives off a bit of the ol' "these are real novels, not those crap gaming/tie-in novels" vibe, which is one possible answer. That said, Feist's first Riftwar book came out in 1982, Brust's first Taltos novel was 1983, and the first Dragonlance novel was 1984, so... maybe they felt that was enough for early-'80s. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
posted by cupcakeninja at 12:31 PM on June 1 [2 favorites]
posted by cupcakeninja at 12:31 PM on June 1 [2 favorites]
crap gaming/tie-in novels
But the Dragonlance novels are actually quite good!
posted by hippybear at 12:32 PM on June 1 [6 favorites]
But the Dragonlance novels are actually quite good!
posted by hippybear at 12:32 PM on June 1 [6 favorites]
I am 99% sure that Neal Stephenson used an RPG campaign to write the "in game" half of "Fall: Dodge in Hell," and same for big chunks of The Mongoliad.
posted by metametamind at 12:42 PM on June 1 [5 favorites]
posted by metametamind at 12:42 PM on June 1 [5 favorites]
Yup! I reread the first couple trilogies at some point in the '00s, and I was pleased at how well they held up. Some of the short stories, too, are easily as good as their non-tie-in peers.
posted by cupcakeninja at 12:42 PM on June 1 [1 favorite]
posted by cupcakeninja at 12:42 PM on June 1 [1 favorite]
If Dragonlance is the grandadyy, Andre Norton’s Quag Keep is the Great Grandmother.
Even Pardieu the Holy Man managed to get his heroic exploits recounted in an epic movie before Dragonlance came out.
posted by house-goblin at 12:46 PM on June 1 [5 favorites]
Even Pardieu the Holy Man managed to get his heroic exploits recounted in an epic movie before Dragonlance came out.
posted by house-goblin at 12:46 PM on June 1 [5 favorites]
I don't see what the point is about complaining where writers get their ideas. If the ideas themselves are warmed over Tolkien, that's a different problem. But the B&N list kind of makes clear how far afield writers go: Scott Lynch came up with a rough character concept for an SF game then used that as a basis for the protagonist in some heist fantasy novels. Might as well complain about Frankenstein because it started as a ghost story telling competition.
I definitely would put Feist in the warmed over Tolkien vibes though. His first novel even starts with a long and stupid world background read, which isn't even good GMing technique. (Not to say I hated everything of his I read, but I wouldn't hold the stuff up.)
It's interesting to me how the fiction inspired gaming, there were necessary (and unnecessary) changes to fit the game dynamic, and the last couple generations of writers are feeding those back into genre fiction. For one thing I think there's a lot more "leveling up"--see Harry Dresden, or Peter Grant in Ben Aaronovitch's much betterRivers of London series. Up until the '90s, though, you'd almost never see gradual changes in power and ability in that way.
I could ramble on a while, but last anecdote: Elizabeth Moon is a good genre writer, but the second book of her Deeds of Paksenarrion trilogy includes a long section that is quite literally just Module T1, The Village of Hommlet, an early introductory D&D adventure. Including some of the cornier and less imaginative stuff. Last time I looked, this was widely recognized but Moon herself had not acknowledged it. There's some speculation that she played in a game and was unaware it was based on someone else's published work.
posted by mark k at 12:51 PM on June 1 [5 favorites]
I definitely would put Feist in the warmed over Tolkien vibes though. His first novel even starts with a long and stupid world background read, which isn't even good GMing technique. (Not to say I hated everything of his I read, but I wouldn't hold the stuff up.)
It's interesting to me how the fiction inspired gaming, there were necessary (and unnecessary) changes to fit the game dynamic, and the last couple generations of writers are feeding those back into genre fiction. For one thing I think there's a lot more "leveling up"--see Harry Dresden, or Peter Grant in Ben Aaronovitch's much betterRivers of London series. Up until the '90s, though, you'd almost never see gradual changes in power and ability in that way.
I could ramble on a while, but last anecdote: Elizabeth Moon is a good genre writer, but the second book of her Deeds of Paksenarrion trilogy includes a long section that is quite literally just Module T1, The Village of Hommlet, an early introductory D&D adventure. Including some of the cornier and less imaginative stuff. Last time I looked, this was widely recognized but Moon herself had not acknowledged it. There's some speculation that she played in a game and was unaware it was based on someone else's published work.
posted by mark k at 12:51 PM on June 1 [5 favorites]
Of course, the Feist novels also plagiarized part of the setting from M.A.R. Barker's Empire of the Petal Throne, barely bothering to obscure the serial numbers, but, considering that Barker turned out to be a Nazi, I find it hard to get too worked up about it.
posted by GenjiandProust at 1:11 PM on June 1 [4 favorites]
posted by GenjiandProust at 1:11 PM on June 1 [4 favorites]
Ooof, I tried to read Malazan and bounced off hard. The beginning was like opening book 4 of a series, halfway through... no clue who or what anyone is or what's going on or why I should care about any of them. I wasn't pulled in by the writing style either.
The Gentleman Bastard series though, just being reminded of it makes me want to reread it.
posted by Foosnark at 1:21 PM on June 1 [4 favorites]
The Gentleman Bastard series though, just being reminded of it makes me want to reread it.
posted by Foosnark at 1:21 PM on June 1 [4 favorites]
Couple thoughts...
Glad to see the Expanse on the list.
Stephenson's SevenEves was explicitly a campaign backstory for a role-playing game. The crappy part of the book is the last third, which is actually proximate to the imagined role-playing setting. But man, the first two thirds are a fantastically great romp.
posted by kaibutsu at 1:45 PM on June 1 [5 favorites]
Glad to see the Expanse on the list.
Stephenson's SevenEves was explicitly a campaign backstory for a role-playing game. The crappy part of the book is the last third, which is actually proximate to the imagined role-playing setting. But man, the first two thirds are a fantastically great romp.
posted by kaibutsu at 1:45 PM on June 1 [5 favorites]
You can't tell me that (parts of) The Deed of Paksenarrion aren't RPG campaigns.
posted by one for the books at 3:00 PM on June 1 [1 favorite]
posted by one for the books at 3:00 PM on June 1 [1 favorite]
Tsojcanth
Tsojcanth
Tsojcanth
I wrote a chapter from a campaign I did in the late 90s. story was about a 26th level jewel thief with spelljammer technology.
just try and rob a gem dragon and live to tell about it.
posted by clavdivs at 3:09 PM on June 1
Tsojcanth
Tsojcanth
I wrote a chapter from a campaign I did in the late 90s. story was about a 26th level jewel thief with spelljammer technology.
just try and rob a gem dragon and live to tell about it.
posted by clavdivs at 3:09 PM on June 1
If you go to the Fantasy subreddit and ask for book recommendations, you *will* be recommended Malazan, because somewhere in its thousands and thousands of pages of text there is apparently at least two pages with whatever you want in it, or close to it. Personally when I finally tried to read it, I threw the first one away after three chapters promising loving homage to all the parts of Tolkien I hated. I also unsubscribed from r/fantasy shortly thereafter.
posted by egypturnash at 3:20 PM on June 1 [7 favorites]
posted by egypturnash at 3:20 PM on June 1 [7 favorites]
This feels like an excellent time to plug the always-entertaining Let’s Read TSR, which, having finished the entire run of Forgotten Realms novels, has just now started in on Dragonlance.
posted by graphweaver at 3:22 PM on June 1 [3 favorites]
posted by graphweaver at 3:22 PM on June 1 [3 favorites]
I’m sure I read that China Mievelle’s Perdido Street Station was an RPG game at some point. Not 100% sure though.
posted by The River Ivel at 3:36 PM on June 1
posted by The River Ivel at 3:36 PM on June 1
Malazan is interesting, I feel like a lot of the hump of book 1 (Gardens of the Moon) may well be down to the shared RPG backstory/genesis between Erikson and Esslemont; when I re-read the series it struck me as rather cautiously written, with a tendency to fall back into quite drawn out "encounter-y" plot used to get more mundane characters in place to witness the next magical drama high point. I felt the sister series by Esslemont (started publishing 5 years / 5 books after Erikson) had the same problem, I gave those up after the first two.
But... If you can push through book 1 the rest of the "core" series by Erikson is a very different kettle of fish. He really takes the brakes off the weird and original world building on huge scales of space and time, while at the same time applying pretty considerable literary talent to setting characters and the (to them) devastating detail of their arcs into the history of the world like insects in amber. I also haven't found many other fantasy authors (Sofia Samatar, Susanna Clarke... ???) who write physical landscape so powerfully. It sometimes seem weirdly reminiscent in effect to reading Hardy.
All that said, I'm still not sure I would have ever gotten past that hump if my first try hadn't been at a time I was doing seasonal work with big spells of downtime, pre-kindle, living out of a suitcase, far from English language bookshops.
posted by protorp at 3:46 PM on June 1 [7 favorites]
But... If you can push through book 1 the rest of the "core" series by Erikson is a very different kettle of fish. He really takes the brakes off the weird and original world building on huge scales of space and time, while at the same time applying pretty considerable literary talent to setting characters and the (to them) devastating detail of their arcs into the history of the world like insects in amber. I also haven't found many other fantasy authors (Sofia Samatar, Susanna Clarke... ???) who write physical landscape so powerfully. It sometimes seem weirdly reminiscent in effect to reading Hardy.
All that said, I'm still not sure I would have ever gotten past that hump if my first try hadn't been at a time I was doing seasonal work with big spells of downtime, pre-kindle, living out of a suitcase, far from English language bookshops.
posted by protorp at 3:46 PM on June 1 [7 favorites]
House Of Leaves was based on an RPG but then the butter and the camel began to duststorm and octopus fnord froynlevyn wee;j wjfk x.
posted by hippybear at 3:49 PM on June 1 [5 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 3:49 PM on June 1 [5 favorites]
Listen, I love Malazan so I’m not going to talk about it beyond saying the enveloping and interminable nature of reading and rereading it sustains me in certain ways against a foreign commute that otherwise encroaches on my inner peace. Like Dumas or Gaddis it requires and rewards minute attention, putting me in a world not my own.
I will say, and this has to be in one of those links right? It’s pretty meta but Dungeon Crawler Carl is the most refreshing thing I’ve read since Murderbot.
posted by Ice Cream Socialist at 3:52 PM on June 1 [7 favorites]
I will say, and this has to be in one of those links right? It’s pretty meta but Dungeon Crawler Carl is the most refreshing thing I’ve read since Murderbot.
posted by Ice Cream Socialist at 3:52 PM on June 1 [7 favorites]
Hmm. I stopped reading the Malazan books because I found them morally repugnant. It’s a series where healing magic exists so the writers can describe injuries over and over in glistening detail. I finally hit the novel where the woman “lead” was tortured and raped in great detail only to be healed and have her memory erased so she could marry the man “lead” because he sort of fancied her. It’s a stomach turning series with a gloating moral void at its center. Lots of interesting backstory, but my spite reading finally withered under the relentless assault.
posted by GenjiandProust at 4:04 PM on June 1 [6 favorites]
posted by GenjiandProust at 4:04 PM on June 1 [6 favorites]
Yeah, there’s a lot of problematic shit in there. I guess you can judge me by what I choose to ignore in my reading. In fact I put down a lot of books because there’s too much rape and character-bullying. My brother had to stop reading Robin Hobb because she punished her characters so much. I like the worlds and I want to see what happens next so I kept reading.
I guess Malazan is pretty far underway before we get there. But you’re right, and I’m probably scum for tolerating it.
posted by Ice Cream Socialist at 4:26 PM on June 1 [3 favorites]
I guess Malazan is pretty far underway before we get there. But you’re right, and I’m probably scum for tolerating it.
posted by Ice Cream Socialist at 4:26 PM on June 1 [3 favorites]
I was saddened to see no mention of Traveller.
posted by doctornemo at 4:33 PM on June 1 [3 favorites]
posted by doctornemo at 4:33 PM on June 1 [3 favorites]
Just chiming in to add that the classic fantasy manga and anime, Record of Lodoss War, was also adapted from TTRPG play sessions.
posted by JHarris at 4:33 PM on June 1 [4 favorites]
posted by JHarris at 4:33 PM on June 1 [4 favorites]
or gamma world.
posted by clavdivs at 4:50 PM on June 1 [2 favorites]
posted by clavdivs at 4:50 PM on June 1 [2 favorites]
I guess Malazan is pretty far underway before we get there. But you’re right, and I’m probably scum for tolerating it.
Honestly, that’s a bit much. You can read what you like and enjoy what you like whether I can stomach it or not. My judgement of the work should not be taken as a judgement of you.
posted by GenjiandProust at 5:14 PM on June 1 [3 favorites]
Honestly, that’s a bit much. You can read what you like and enjoy what you like whether I can stomach it or not. My judgement of the work should not be taken as a judgement of you.
posted by GenjiandProust at 5:14 PM on June 1 [3 favorites]
Many authors have written stories...
is there a category for games that become nonfiction? thinking of course of Pandemic (wiki), though there might be others
also, Stephenson's been mentioned a couple times; going way back Snowcrash (gBooks) inspired Second Life (new world notes)
posted by HearHere at 5:46 PM on June 1
is there a category for games that become nonfiction? thinking of course of Pandemic (wiki), though there might be others
also, Stephenson's been mentioned a couple times; going way back Snowcrash (gBooks) inspired Second Life (new world notes)
posted by HearHere at 5:46 PM on June 1
Mentioned in one of the previouslies, Worth The Candle is now complete. Depending on your taste for metafiction, you may or may not find the ending entirely satisfying. I did.
The main character is based on the author himself. One of the hardest chapters to read was actually a flashback to before the main character's isakai-ing. It recounts a session from an edge-lordy game he ran, while he was grieving the death of his friend, which went over very badly with his players. The author has a blog post where he discusses differences between himself and the main character; it doesn't disavow this chapter which makes me think it's probably based on an actual incident. Heck of a good chapter, especially with all the build-up it gets over the previous million or so words.
posted by novalis_dt at 6:11 PM on June 1 [2 favorites]
The main character is based on the author himself. One of the hardest chapters to read was actually a flashback to before the main character's isakai-ing. It recounts a session from an edge-lordy game he ran, while he was grieving the death of his friend, which went over very badly with his players. The author has a blog post where he discusses differences between himself and the main character; it doesn't disavow this chapter which makes me think it's probably based on an actual incident. Heck of a good chapter, especially with all the build-up it gets over the previous million or so words.
posted by novalis_dt at 6:11 PM on June 1 [2 favorites]
Critical Role's Legend of Vox Machina and The Mighty Nein will be remembered in the future as some of the best D&D media ever, whether the YouTube show, the streaming series, or any of their upcoming work.
Full disclosue: I have nothing to do with it except for being a superfan, having grown up on Dragonlance etc., and it is lightening in a bottle.
posted by chmmr at 6:39 PM on June 1 [3 favorites]
Full disclosue: I have nothing to do with it except for being a superfan, having grown up on Dragonlance etc., and it is lightening in a bottle.
posted by chmmr at 6:39 PM on June 1 [3 favorites]
I was getting into Brandon Sanderson's Mistborn until the midpoint when I realized the characters were all deadly dull and I bailed. (Come to think of it, that's always my reaction with BS's works). I thought Mistborn read like a RPG, and I don't know if that was its origin, but it certainly evolved to that.
The Books of the Malazan are so very clearly from an RPG--the DNA of it at least. I read the first novel, and actually rather liked it. Once you see past the RPG-ness of it all, the writing is quite good. Just an investment of time I'm not willing or able to make.
posted by zardoz at 6:51 PM on June 1 [2 favorites]
The Books of the Malazan are so very clearly from an RPG--the DNA of it at least. I read the first novel, and actually rather liked it. Once you see past the RPG-ness of it all, the writing is quite good. Just an investment of time I'm not willing or able to make.
posted by zardoz at 6:51 PM on June 1 [2 favorites]
Wargamers would know that Tom Clancy's Red Storm Rising, technically co-written with Larry Bond, was gamed out using the wargame Harpoon (not the PC version, the tabletop version).
posted by kschang at 7:22 PM on June 1 [1 favorite]
posted by kschang at 7:22 PM on June 1 [1 favorite]
Genjiandproust, I wasn’t very clear and should have separated those thoughts: I think you’re right about those aspects of Malazan, they are in fact deeply problematic.
And at the same time it does bother me that I tolerate it in Malazan enough to even re-read it! Yet other books and series don’t get that pass from me, and I wonder what keeps me reading.
I do think it’s scummy of me as a reader to tolerate it, but maybe it only adds to the anticipation of revenge? How much abuse can I stomach before it’s beyond the pale? A lot of authors do that but I’m not sure what kept me not just reading but loving the Malazan books, which are undeniably awful in those ways.
I’m straying really far from topic, but I don’t want you to feel like I meant that as a defense of myself against your judgment. The judgment was my own and I don’t really understand it very well.
Sometimes my tolerance for problematic aspects of writing leads to good places. The Cassandra Kresnov books start out with a prurient exposition full of male gaze and exasperatingly dull sci-fi niftiness, with very little narrative thrust. I gave up on it once and I don’t know why I picked it up again but I’m sure glad I did. It does make sense.
I’m not satisfied with my own responses and I try to be, if not better at least internally consistent, but I fail. The stuff I love sometimes outweighs the stuff I hate, but sometimes it doesn’t.
posted by Ice Cream Socialist at 7:37 PM on June 1 [3 favorites]
And at the same time it does bother me that I tolerate it in Malazan enough to even re-read it! Yet other books and series don’t get that pass from me, and I wonder what keeps me reading.
I do think it’s scummy of me as a reader to tolerate it, but maybe it only adds to the anticipation of revenge? How much abuse can I stomach before it’s beyond the pale? A lot of authors do that but I’m not sure what kept me not just reading but loving the Malazan books, which are undeniably awful in those ways.
I’m straying really far from topic, but I don’t want you to feel like I meant that as a defense of myself against your judgment. The judgment was my own and I don’t really understand it very well.
Sometimes my tolerance for problematic aspects of writing leads to good places. The Cassandra Kresnov books start out with a prurient exposition full of male gaze and exasperatingly dull sci-fi niftiness, with very little narrative thrust. I gave up on it once and I don’t know why I picked it up again but I’m sure glad I did. It does make sense.
I’m not satisfied with my own responses and I try to be, if not better at least internally consistent, but I fail. The stuff I love sometimes outweighs the stuff I hate, but sometimes it doesn’t.
posted by Ice Cream Socialist at 7:37 PM on June 1 [3 favorites]
Of course, the Feist novels also plagiarized part of the setting from M.A.R. Barker's Empire of the Petal Throne, barely bothering to obscure the serial numbers
I like the idea that Feist didn't know his DM was cribbing from EPT until his books were published when suddenly he found out all that stuff was not so wild. I think that's the funniest version of events, though it doesn't seem too likely to me (when he asks the DM if he can use the DM's cool campaign for his books, how does it not come out then?).
posted by fleacircus at 8:01 PM on June 1 [2 favorites]
I like the idea that Feist didn't know his DM was cribbing from EPT until his books were published when suddenly he found out all that stuff was not so wild. I think that's the funniest version of events, though it doesn't seem too likely to me (when he asks the DM if he can use the DM's cool campaign for his books, how does it not come out then?).
posted by fleacircus at 8:01 PM on June 1 [2 favorites]
This has reminded me of an I'dea I've had in the back of my head for some time now, to write some story piece-by-piece, installment-by-installment, using a Pokémon nuzlocke run as the inspiration for the story events.
Like, the story itself would have nothing to do with the Pokémon universe, understand. But characters entering, leaving, heroics, growth, etc would be determined by encounters, fainting, critical hits, evolutions, etc.
It's such a dumb idea and I'll 99% never actually do this thing, but something about it has been sticky in my brain. Maybe just waiting for the right story premise to tie it to.
posted by Navelgazer at 8:40 PM on June 1 [4 favorites]
Like, the story itself would have nothing to do with the Pokémon universe, understand. But characters entering, leaving, heroics, growth, etc would be determined by encounters, fainting, critical hits, evolutions, etc.
It's such a dumb idea and I'll 99% never actually do this thing, but something about it has been sticky in my brain. Maybe just waiting for the right story premise to tie it to.
posted by Navelgazer at 8:40 PM on June 1 [4 favorites]
Do the constraints of an RPG naturally resemble the archetypal structures Joseph Campbell proposed as universals of storytelling?
posted by Phanx at 12:09 AM on June 2
posted by Phanx at 12:09 AM on June 2
RPG tie-in novels are novels set in the published setting of an RPG, which does not necessarily mean that they're based on actual human RPG gameplay (although some of them might be). Basing a list around the latter is not a snub against RPG tie-in novels, some of which I agree are quite good (like all tie-in novels, they vary widely in quality).
I'm counting examples like Wild Cards as being "based on human gameplay" because even if only the setting was carried over and not any of the plot elements, the setting is still an artifact of human gameplay.
The emergent properties of RPGs are my favourite element, and the part that I find the most interesting as an influence for prose fiction.
posted by confluency at 12:20 AM on June 2 [1 favorite]
I'm counting examples like Wild Cards as being "based on human gameplay" because even if only the setting was carried over and not any of the plot elements, the setting is still an artifact of human gameplay.
The emergent properties of RPGs are my favourite element, and the part that I find the most interesting as an influence for prose fiction.
posted by confluency at 12:20 AM on June 2 [1 favorite]
Previously mentioned Critical Role actually have a publishing house for their novels that bridge tie-in and game based, exploring the motivations and back stories of their characters based on actions taken and personalities formed live at the table. criticalrolebooks.com
posted by Iteki at 12:54 AM on June 2 [1 favorite]
posted by Iteki at 12:54 AM on June 2 [1 favorite]
Do the constraints of an RPG naturally resemble the archetypal structures Joseph Campbell proposed as universals of storytelling?
thanks, Phanx. there's a thread on reddit exploring that, also bringing in Neil Gaiman
posted by HearHere at 1:51 AM on June 2
thanks, Phanx. there's a thread on reddit exploring that, also bringing in Neil Gaiman
posted by HearHere at 1:51 AM on June 2
confluency, same feels. I love It when something unexpected happens, or when the elements swirl together in a new way.
posted by cupcakeninja at 3:58 AM on June 2 [1 favorite]
posted by cupcakeninja at 3:58 AM on June 2 [1 favorite]
In my opinion, the Heroic Journey is antithetical to good a good roleplaying experience for a number of reasons.
Firstly, players have to buy into the fiction and be willing to engage with the opportunities presented by the game master (GM). This means the "refusal of the call" is an obstacle for play. It often comes off as a single player being selfish in play, demanding special attention to be "convinced" to participate. If all the players do it, the game quickly goes off the rails and becomes unworkable. It's common to require players to be responsible for finding their way into the game. Why are they there?
Secondly, to do the "plot" as described by the link HearHear describes, this requires the GM to significant limit player choice when moving through the "scenes" as they play out. How player choice is handled is key to the roleplaying experience. Some prefer no deviations from a set plot, but that can be unsatisfying as that means plots are effectively predetermined and the players are just along for a ride. Some prefer no restriction on player choice, a so called "sandbox" approach where nothing is predetermined and most things are randomly generated.
For me the road between the railroad approach of a single plot and the choice paralysis of a fully open world is to offer a limited but significant number of choices to the players at any time. This essentially eliminates the Heroic Journey as a campaign structure. The GM doesn't control the pacing or the order of events strongly enough to structure play to fit the model.
Finally, there's always the wildcard of the players' choices in the moment. Respecting player agency also means letting the players make choices that completely derail your preparation and force you to wing it for the rest of the session. You may plan for a scene to have a number of possible "exits" and a neat nodal structure to move from scene to scene. However, the players may well do something unanticipated and take a new path, one that either needs a new set of scenes or possibly cuts through to a final climax "early". Or possibly obviates the need for a planned climax at all.
These are often very fun sessions to play, if a little more stressful for the GM. It's often very satisfying as a player to accomplish this, hacking the story effectively. Note that this is a choice: a GM can chose to say no to a player action that "takes them off the rails" of the plot, doing an action that they had not planned for. That tends to result in frustrated players and poor gameplay.
So, I think formal structures in game play are poor guides for how good roleplay works. Player engagement, the human ability to choose, and player agency are all important for a fun time at the game table. What that does do however is allow for an emergent story tempo that is, imo, engaging and uprising because in part of it's unpredictability.
That doesn't mean literary techniques can't be used in RPG play. I use forshadowing a lot. I know what I have planned and can sneak things in a few sessions ahead that players can pick up later. I can also sometime bend things so unrelated things come together, if that makes sense in world. Character voicing is really important, critically so, as character is often what does drive plot/story evolution at the table.
posted by bonehead at 5:19 AM on June 2 [3 favorites]
Firstly, players have to buy into the fiction and be willing to engage with the opportunities presented by the game master (GM). This means the "refusal of the call" is an obstacle for play. It often comes off as a single player being selfish in play, demanding special attention to be "convinced" to participate. If all the players do it, the game quickly goes off the rails and becomes unworkable. It's common to require players to be responsible for finding their way into the game. Why are they there?
Secondly, to do the "plot" as described by the link HearHear describes, this requires the GM to significant limit player choice when moving through the "scenes" as they play out. How player choice is handled is key to the roleplaying experience. Some prefer no deviations from a set plot, but that can be unsatisfying as that means plots are effectively predetermined and the players are just along for a ride. Some prefer no restriction on player choice, a so called "sandbox" approach where nothing is predetermined and most things are randomly generated.
For me the road between the railroad approach of a single plot and the choice paralysis of a fully open world is to offer a limited but significant number of choices to the players at any time. This essentially eliminates the Heroic Journey as a campaign structure. The GM doesn't control the pacing or the order of events strongly enough to structure play to fit the model.
Finally, there's always the wildcard of the players' choices in the moment. Respecting player agency also means letting the players make choices that completely derail your preparation and force you to wing it for the rest of the session. You may plan for a scene to have a number of possible "exits" and a neat nodal structure to move from scene to scene. However, the players may well do something unanticipated and take a new path, one that either needs a new set of scenes or possibly cuts through to a final climax "early". Or possibly obviates the need for a planned climax at all.
These are often very fun sessions to play, if a little more stressful for the GM. It's often very satisfying as a player to accomplish this, hacking the story effectively. Note that this is a choice: a GM can chose to say no to a player action that "takes them off the rails" of the plot, doing an action that they had not planned for. That tends to result in frustrated players and poor gameplay.
So, I think formal structures in game play are poor guides for how good roleplay works. Player engagement, the human ability to choose, and player agency are all important for a fun time at the game table. What that does do however is allow for an emergent story tempo that is, imo, engaging and uprising because in part of it's unpredictability.
That doesn't mean literary techniques can't be used in RPG play. I use forshadowing a lot. I know what I have planned and can sneak things in a few sessions ahead that players can pick up later. I can also sometime bend things so unrelated things come together, if that makes sense in world. Character voicing is really important, critically so, as character is often what does drive plot/story evolution at the table.
posted by bonehead at 5:19 AM on June 2 [3 favorites]
Do the constraints of an RPG naturally resemble the archetypal structures Joseph Campbell proposed as universals of storytelling?
That is easy to answer: No, they can follow many different types of story structures.
Campbell's monomyth ideas is really handwavy anyway, and not endorsed by people who actually study myth and folklore.
posted by mark k at 7:02 AM on June 2 [3 favorites]
That is easy to answer: No, they can follow many different types of story structures.
Campbell's monomyth ideas is really handwavy anyway, and not endorsed by people who actually study myth and folklore.
posted by mark k at 7:02 AM on June 2 [3 favorites]
Do the constraints of an RPG naturally resemble the archetypal structures Joseph Campbell proposed as universals of storytelling?
Yes and no. First off, I should mention that Story Theory goes a lot deeper than Joseph Campbell, and while his work is absolutely essential and foundational, it's also pretty academic and descriptive in nature. The "Monomyth" encapsulates so much, and is so focused on ancient stories in particular, that it's much more valuable as "look how these common elements appear again and again in stories from everywhere" than as a tool for creating something new. Like, yes, story goes that George Lucas used it as such to create Star Wars, but I'd argue that it took Marcia Lucas to turn that into something coherent and watchable (both in editing the final film and in working on the script with George.) Campbell isn't really what people go to anymore, I don't think.
So, on a purely Campbellian analysis, I'd say no, not really. bonehead's analysis is excellent here. Furthermore, going beyond Campbell, one of the primary principles in modern storytelling is that Plot = Character. i.e. "Story" is about character change (or in rare instances, about lack of change, but you have to really know how to do that well), and the events that happen cause and reflect that change, with the two elements being so closely intertwined in modern storytelling that it's better to think of them as a single element.
Which is great, for storytelling as an individual sitting down to write something. But TTRPGs are inherently collaborative. DMs can't plan things out ahead of time too much and expect their players to act how they wanted. Hell, they can't expect the dice to act as planned. DMs can and still will plan out big overarching plots, but the experienced ones know how to leave a lot of room in them for player choices and when to even abandon grand plans altogether. But this is to say nothing for character development, because you can't force that on a player who doesn't want to go there with you.
(Brief aside here to mention actual-play podcasts like The Adventure Zone and Dimension 20, which do manage to make this work on the fly. One, both TAZ and D20 are made by folks with a strong improv background and trust in one another and their DM, and with a lot of "off-screen" conversations between DM and players so that the DM knows where players want their characters to go. Two, even with all of that, these podcasts are going to get a lot of leeway from their audiences in terms of cruft being left in, eraly installment weirdness while players are still figuring out characters, dead ends not worth following, etc.)
But we're only talking about applying this kind of narrative structure onto a game as it's being played, here. And yeah, there are elements of Campbell that arguably fit there (The call to adventure, the approach, the boon, yada yada.) But this post is about RPG campaigns becoming works of fiction, and when it comes to applying story theory to game events which have already taken place, hell yeah that works. Because if you're choosing to do this, then the campaign in question probably already told a pretty good story to begin with, and now you're just etching away at it, excising the cruft, finding the character beats, playing with the pacing, and sometimes outright inventing stuff in order to smooth it all out.
Basically, just as you can apply a narrative to real events in order to make a good story out of it, you can do so to events in a game which were already going to be following a rough narrative throughline to begin with. I could go on basically forever about this, and so I'm going to stop this comment here, but TL;DR:
1. Campbell's stuff is vague and not particularly useful for crafting stories anyway, coming as it did from an impetus to make everything fit into one box, which story really doesn't.
2. Mapping story beats from an RPG onto a story structure that works for them is almost trivially possible (and, as with all art, the devil is in the details about how one chooses to go about doing so.)
posted by Navelgazer at 7:21 AM on June 2 [1 favorite]
Yes and no. First off, I should mention that Story Theory goes a lot deeper than Joseph Campbell, and while his work is absolutely essential and foundational, it's also pretty academic and descriptive in nature. The "Monomyth" encapsulates so much, and is so focused on ancient stories in particular, that it's much more valuable as "look how these common elements appear again and again in stories from everywhere" than as a tool for creating something new. Like, yes, story goes that George Lucas used it as such to create Star Wars, but I'd argue that it took Marcia Lucas to turn that into something coherent and watchable (both in editing the final film and in working on the script with George.) Campbell isn't really what people go to anymore, I don't think.
So, on a purely Campbellian analysis, I'd say no, not really. bonehead's analysis is excellent here. Furthermore, going beyond Campbell, one of the primary principles in modern storytelling is that Plot = Character. i.e. "Story" is about character change (or in rare instances, about lack of change, but you have to really know how to do that well), and the events that happen cause and reflect that change, with the two elements being so closely intertwined in modern storytelling that it's better to think of them as a single element.
Which is great, for storytelling as an individual sitting down to write something. But TTRPGs are inherently collaborative. DMs can't plan things out ahead of time too much and expect their players to act how they wanted. Hell, they can't expect the dice to act as planned. DMs can and still will plan out big overarching plots, but the experienced ones know how to leave a lot of room in them for player choices and when to even abandon grand plans altogether. But this is to say nothing for character development, because you can't force that on a player who doesn't want to go there with you.
(Brief aside here to mention actual-play podcasts like The Adventure Zone and Dimension 20, which do manage to make this work on the fly. One, both TAZ and D20 are made by folks with a strong improv background and trust in one another and their DM, and with a lot of "off-screen" conversations between DM and players so that the DM knows where players want their characters to go. Two, even with all of that, these podcasts are going to get a lot of leeway from their audiences in terms of cruft being left in, eraly installment weirdness while players are still figuring out characters, dead ends not worth following, etc.)
But we're only talking about applying this kind of narrative structure onto a game as it's being played, here. And yeah, there are elements of Campbell that arguably fit there (The call to adventure, the approach, the boon, yada yada.) But this post is about RPG campaigns becoming works of fiction, and when it comes to applying story theory to game events which have already taken place, hell yeah that works. Because if you're choosing to do this, then the campaign in question probably already told a pretty good story to begin with, and now you're just etching away at it, excising the cruft, finding the character beats, playing with the pacing, and sometimes outright inventing stuff in order to smooth it all out.
Basically, just as you can apply a narrative to real events in order to make a good story out of it, you can do so to events in a game which were already going to be following a rough narrative throughline to begin with. I could go on basically forever about this, and so I'm going to stop this comment here, but TL;DR:
1. Campbell's stuff is vague and not particularly useful for crafting stories anyway, coming as it did from an impetus to make everything fit into one box, which story really doesn't.
2. Mapping story beats from an RPG onto a story structure that works for them is almost trivially possible (and, as with all art, the devil is in the details about how one chooses to go about doing so.)
posted by Navelgazer at 7:21 AM on June 2 [1 favorite]
I fucking hate Warhammer 40K as a system, as a setting, as a business and as something that the worst sort of nerd fails to understand and then uses their lack of media literacy to embrace the worst ideals humanity has ever put forth.
So keep that in mind when I tell you that I fucking love the Eisenhorn trilogy.
posted by Parasite Unseen at 8:04 AM on June 2 [2 favorites]
So keep that in mind when I tell you that I fucking love the Eisenhorn trilogy.
posted by Parasite Unseen at 8:04 AM on June 2 [2 favorites]
The main character is based on the author himself.
Really? How unique.
posted by Billiken at 8:54 AM on June 2
Really? How unique.
posted by Billiken at 8:54 AM on June 2
Campbell's monomyth ideas is really handwavy anyway, and not endorsed by people who actually study myth and folklore.
Oh I'm so glad to hear that. I'm sick of hero's journey narratives.
posted by JHarris at 9:37 AM on June 2 [2 favorites]
Oh I'm so glad to hear that. I'm sick of hero's journey narratives.
posted by JHarris at 9:37 AM on June 2 [2 favorites]
Like, the story itself would have nothing to do with the Pokémon universe, understand. But characters entering, leaving, heroics, growth, etc would be determined by encounters, fainting, critical hits, evolutions, etc.
Similarly I've always thought that minecraft servers would make a good template for a circle of D&D type wizards, both for the personalities/politics/drama and for the kinds of ruins they might have left behind. Teleporter network like busted ass minecart networks.
posted by fleacircus at 10:21 AM on June 2 [2 favorites]
Similarly I've always thought that minecraft servers would make a good template for a circle of D&D type wizards, both for the personalities/politics/drama and for the kinds of ruins they might have left behind. Teleporter network like busted ass minecart networks.
posted by fleacircus at 10:21 AM on June 2 [2 favorites]
My neighbor and good friend is an Nebula-winning science fiction writer. He was once commissioned to write a novel based on a video game. When the book came out, the pages had been bound out of order. The publisher decided to not reprint but to shitcan it. My friend claims to not recall the name of the game or the novel and I've never been able to figure it out. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
posted by neuron at 11:06 AM on June 2 [2 favorites]
posted by neuron at 11:06 AM on June 2 [2 favorites]
Once you know that The Expanse started as an RPG, there are one or two things that stand out. Particularly in the first book. There is a "well, I guess THAT player either rolled REALLY badly or quit the game in a very unpleasant manner" moment.
posted by rednikki at 11:57 AM on June 2
posted by rednikki at 11:57 AM on June 2
I’ve only just gotten back into playing again, a weekly-ish online session that is profoundly underwhelming, with a first time DM doing his best to railroad us down the story he’s clearly put a lot of time into. I’ve given quitting serious thought, but damn, it’s scratching an itch I’d forgotten I had.
It’s also tangentially responsible for the kernel of an idea that’s grown into an absurdly large idea for a stupendously large campaign that, if I’m being honest, I’ll almost never have an opportunity or time to run. In describing it to a friend, their response was that it sounded like a novel, and that I should write it out.
I appreciated their enthusiasm, but I think this is going to end up being my equivalent of building a model train layout, something that I putter around at on weekends and in free time, except it’ll take up a lot less space and money.
posted by Ghidorah at 2:12 PM on June 2 [1 favorite]
It’s also tangentially responsible for the kernel of an idea that’s grown into an absurdly large idea for a stupendously large campaign that, if I’m being honest, I’ll almost never have an opportunity or time to run. In describing it to a friend, their response was that it sounded like a novel, and that I should write it out.
I appreciated their enthusiasm, but I think this is going to end up being my equivalent of building a model train layout, something that I putter around at on weekends and in free time, except it’ll take up a lot less space and money.
posted by Ghidorah at 2:12 PM on June 2 [1 favorite]
Ooof, I tried to read Malazan and bounced off hard. The beginning was like opening book 4 of a series, halfway through... no clue who or what anyone is or what's going on or why I should care about any of them.
Oh my god, thank you. I tried reading Malazan a while back after getting it recommended to me over and over and over again, and...okay, look. I like my fiction in medias res as the next person, and I enjoy trying to figure out details of a world and setting as I go to an extent...but only to an extent.
If I'm over fifty pages in and still wondering who the fuck everyone is, where they are, what they're doing, and why I should care, I'm closing the book and moving on to something else.
posted by Mr. Bad Example at 2:18 PM on June 2 [1 favorite]
Oh my god, thank you. I tried reading Malazan a while back after getting it recommended to me over and over and over again, and...okay, look. I like my fiction in medias res as the next person, and I enjoy trying to figure out details of a world and setting as I go to an extent...but only to an extent.
If I'm over fifty pages in and still wondering who the fuck everyone is, where they are, what they're doing, and why I should care, I'm closing the book and moving on to something else.
posted by Mr. Bad Example at 2:18 PM on June 2 [1 favorite]
RPG tie-in novels are a really good way for fledgling authors to get paid to learn their craft. MeFi's own Charlie Stross, Kieron Gillen, Dan Abnett and I, and others I can't remember, all cut our book-length teeth in the Warhammer universes (actually I think Charlie only wrote short stories). As Marc Gascoigne says (and Marc set up the SF/F imprints Solaris and Angry Robot, as well as Games Workshop's Black Library): your first million words are going to be rubbish, so get them out of you as quickly as possible(*). The deadlines and pay-rates in the tie-in world teach you to write fast if you want to eat, and the fact you won't own the copyright of the finished book means you don't get precious about whether that gerund is right in that sentence. The pulps in the 1930s served the same purpose.
(*) I know Neil Gaiman said it too. Marc said it first.
posted by Hogshead at 6:19 AM on June 3 [2 favorites]
(*) I know Neil Gaiman said it too. Marc said it first.
posted by Hogshead at 6:19 AM on June 3 [2 favorites]
I've played in a Changeling LARP the writer of the first link created and ran, it was great fun.
I think stories built from the play we engage in are wonderful. If they are well written they can capture some of the feelings of the game itself.
posted by Chrysopoeia at 1:30 PM on June 3 [1 favorite]
I think stories built from the play we engage in are wonderful. If they are well written they can capture some of the feelings of the game itself.
posted by Chrysopoeia at 1:30 PM on June 3 [1 favorite]
A brief shoutout to Eric Nylund, who wrote truly beautiful novels before he went to work for Microsoft writing Halo stuff. He recently started writing LitRPG novels (meaning novels that had an explicit RPG structure of some sort, with diegetic level ups and so on). I can't really recommend them but the genre idea is kind of wild. (I see that there's reference to it in one of the earlier FPPs.)
In terms of the B&N article, which is fantastic: Locke as an RPG character is a major reach. That's a story you could only tell in Blades in the Dark, with some play-to-lose dynamics. And frankly the comic DIE (and its accompanying game) is the GOAT for adaptations between/among rpgs and (graphic) novels and it's sad it gets no mention.
posted by anotherpanacea at 8:19 AM on June 5 [1 favorite]
In terms of the B&N article, which is fantastic: Locke as an RPG character is a major reach. That's a story you could only tell in Blades in the Dark, with some play-to-lose dynamics. And frankly the comic DIE (and its accompanying game) is the GOAT for adaptations between/among rpgs and (graphic) novels and it's sad it gets no mention.
posted by anotherpanacea at 8:19 AM on June 5 [1 favorite]
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