The Tourist Trap
June 5, 2024 1:06 AM Subscribe
Meanwhile, there is an ethical conundrum to consider here - and with it a charge of hypocrisy. Many in the West, myself included, have enjoyed the fruits of the post-war travel boom, exploring far flung parts of the world without thinking of the unwanted consequences of mass tourism. So who are we now to preach to younger generations for whom gap years and backpacking are almost a rites of passage and indeed life enhancing experiences? And who are we to lecture people from developing economies who can only now afford to do the same? from Global tourism is booming. These people would rather it wasn’t [BBC]
Fake signs and hunger strikes: What’s behind Europe’s backlash against overtourism? [EuroNews]
The travel destinations that want tourists to stay away [Time Out]
Japan blocks view of Mount Fuji after local backlash against tourist hordes [FT]
What's the problem with overtourism? [National Geographic]
Why You’ll Pay More and Behave Better When You Travel This Summer [NYT]
The problem with 'overtourism' - and how to address it [RNZ]
Fake signs and hunger strikes: What’s behind Europe’s backlash against overtourism? [EuroNews]
The travel destinations that want tourists to stay away [Time Out]
Japan blocks view of Mount Fuji after local backlash against tourist hordes [FT]
What's the problem with overtourism? [National Geographic]
Why You’ll Pay More and Behave Better When You Travel This Summer [NYT]
The problem with 'overtourism' - and how to address it [RNZ]
the problem is not the tourists, it's capitalism
And the massive disparities in wealth and opportunity that result.
I'm from Cornwall, and it's a land of contrasts; tourists don't often see the flip-side of tourism. The coast is ringed with holiday parks and gated communities of buy-to-let holiday cottages, and the coastal towns are mostly second homes/tourist lets. It's usually more expensive to holiday in Cornwall than it is to fly to, say, the Canary Islands. The communities of these towns and villages have been hollowed out - dead in the winter and barely a local accent to be heard in the summer. Inland, the poverty is dire in a lot of places - like the most deprived inner-city housing estates, just on a smaller, more isolated scale. All the same problems with mental health, addiction and crime. As a young person, you either leave and never go back, or work in the tourist economy, which is seasonal and low-paid. I'm lucky enough that I could afford to move back, but I've long been settled with a family elsewhere, so I doubt I'll return.
posted by pipeski at 3:26 AM on June 5 [29 favorites]
And the massive disparities in wealth and opportunity that result.
I'm from Cornwall, and it's a land of contrasts; tourists don't often see the flip-side of tourism. The coast is ringed with holiday parks and gated communities of buy-to-let holiday cottages, and the coastal towns are mostly second homes/tourist lets. It's usually more expensive to holiday in Cornwall than it is to fly to, say, the Canary Islands. The communities of these towns and villages have been hollowed out - dead in the winter and barely a local accent to be heard in the summer. Inland, the poverty is dire in a lot of places - like the most deprived inner-city housing estates, just on a smaller, more isolated scale. All the same problems with mental health, addiction and crime. As a young person, you either leave and never go back, or work in the tourist economy, which is seasonal and low-paid. I'm lucky enough that I could afford to move back, but I've long been settled with a family elsewhere, so I doubt I'll return.
posted by pipeski at 3:26 AM on June 5 [29 favorites]
i need to go somewhere & think about this
posted by HearHere at 4:04 AM on June 5 [7 favorites]
posted by HearHere at 4:04 AM on June 5 [7 favorites]
Thinking backpacking and gap years are "rites of passage" for young people suggests limited awareness of economic disparities in "the West". Describing overseas vacations as a "virtual human right" confirms it.
Unsurprisingly, there is no discussion of not renting a coastal villa as a solution.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 4:14 AM on June 5 [28 favorites]
Unsurprisingly, there is no discussion of not renting a coastal villa as a solution.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 4:14 AM on June 5 [28 favorites]
when the exploitation of tourism results in your apartment's common entrance being pissed in by late-night partiers, the pubs and restaurants on your street staying open until well after midnight with noisy pavement parties every night for a month, and ordinary people can't afford to rent an apartment because the commercial landlords are buying them up and turning them into unregulated hostels for transients, something has gone wrong.
I keep thinking of Anthony Bourdain's Jamaica episode from Parts Unknown. Throughout the episode he's been scoffing at the resorts that are most tourists' experiences of Jamaica, and at some point he seeks out a local hangout and gets to talking with some people there. They mention that a lot of the beaches get bought up by the growing resorts, and tell him that it might actually get to a point where every beach in Jamaica could get bought up - which would mean that there would not be a single beach which Jamaican residents could visit.
“Who owns paradise after all? Who in the end gets to own paradise, use paradise, or even visit it? That’s a question that’s probably worth paying attention to before there’s none left at all.”
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:24 AM on June 5 [27 favorites]
I keep thinking of Anthony Bourdain's Jamaica episode from Parts Unknown. Throughout the episode he's been scoffing at the resorts that are most tourists' experiences of Jamaica, and at some point he seeks out a local hangout and gets to talking with some people there. They mention that a lot of the beaches get bought up by the growing resorts, and tell him that it might actually get to a point where every beach in Jamaica could get bought up - which would mean that there would not be a single beach which Jamaican residents could visit.
“Who owns paradise after all? Who in the end gets to own paradise, use paradise, or even visit it? That’s a question that’s probably worth paying attention to before there’s none left at all.”
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:24 AM on June 5 [27 favorites]
I couldn't help but think that these islands, coastal areas, and of course Venice are facing much more severe impacts of climate change in the form of sea level rise than are the places people are traveling from. There's a definitely a "see Venice before it's underwater" thing that's contributing to the tourism surge, even as the tourism surge is of course contributing to the rising sea water.
posted by hydropsyche at 4:37 AM on June 5 [8 favorites]
posted by hydropsyche at 4:37 AM on June 5 [8 favorites]
one more:
Tourismphobia: Protests, Bans, Fees, And Fines At European Hotspots To Keep Visitors Away [Forbes]
posted by Rash at 5:16 AM on June 5 [1 favorite]
Tourismphobia: Protests, Bans, Fees, And Fines At European Hotspots To Keep Visitors Away [Forbes]
posted by Rash at 5:16 AM on June 5 [1 favorite]
One of my wildest dreams is that heavier than air flight is strictly reserved for emergencies. If humans or human components need to be transported from point A to point B immediately over terrain to prevent death, then we collectively agree to spend the carbon in those circumstances. All other matter movement can wait (sentient or otherwise), nothing is truly that urgent, and I bet there's hardly even any turbulence on a rigid airship.
Of course, then the cost of travel becomes "who can afford long transit times" which gets pretty discriminatory pretty fast. I don't have a good solution. Blimpin ain't easy.
posted by 1024 at 5:27 AM on June 5 [24 favorites]
Of course, then the cost of travel becomes "who can afford long transit times" which gets pretty discriminatory pretty fast. I don't have a good solution. Blimpin ain't easy.
posted by 1024 at 5:27 AM on June 5 [24 favorites]
I really don't think that in this increasingly fractured world we want the message to be that everyone should stay tightly locked in their own home, exploring and understanding nothing at all about the rest of the globe.
posted by Galvanic at 5:40 AM on June 5 [27 favorites]
posted by Galvanic at 5:40 AM on June 5 [27 favorites]
The idea that rich people flying somewhere to get drunk by a pool and snap selfies is somehow increasing worldwide harmony is certainly a take.
A privileged one, but at least a take.
posted by signal at 5:45 AM on June 5 [18 favorites]
A privileged one, but at least a take.
posted by signal at 5:45 AM on June 5 [18 favorites]
That's an aggressively uncharitable reaction to what Galvanic just said. Just pure bad faith.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 5:48 AM on June 5 [49 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 5:48 AM on June 5 [49 favorites]
It's more of a third-world reaction, TBH.
posted by signal at 5:50 AM on June 5 [9 favorites]
posted by signal at 5:50 AM on June 5 [9 favorites]
We took our grown kids (age 15-24) to Paris this winter, from the U.S. On the whole, I think tourism is good if the visitors arrive with humility, and leave having learned more about the people & places they saw.
I thought long and hard about the trip: the cost, yes, but also the COVID-19 risk, the carbon of flying, where we would stay (a short-term rental, as it turns out), and how to experience the place without wasting time in tourist traps.
A good friend has spent her whole life there, and she was our guide and companion for whole days. It would have been a perfectly fine, completely normal visit without her -- but with her, we got a whole different perspective than what's in a Rick Steves book or a YouTube video.
She threw a New Years Eve party with some of her friends for us to meet (instead of us going to the Times Square-esque crush on the Champs-Élysées), and she explained to the manager of the Grand Mosque's restaurant that we hadn't come there simply because we saw it on "Emily in Paris" (which he said to one of the waiters, thinking we didn't speak any French), and she convinced a guard after closing time to let us see the courtyard of the Musée Carnavalet for just a few minutes.
Do my kids really know what living in Paris is like? Of course not! But all four of them now know more about it than many other casual visitors, and they made a real connection with an actual French person -- so I think the trip was worth the impact to the city.
But it was still a hard call to make.
posted by wenestvedt at 5:51 AM on June 5 [10 favorites]
I thought long and hard about the trip: the cost, yes, but also the COVID-19 risk, the carbon of flying, where we would stay (a short-term rental, as it turns out), and how to experience the place without wasting time in tourist traps.
A good friend has spent her whole life there, and she was our guide and companion for whole days. It would have been a perfectly fine, completely normal visit without her -- but with her, we got a whole different perspective than what's in a Rick Steves book or a YouTube video.
She threw a New Years Eve party with some of her friends for us to meet (instead of us going to the Times Square-esque crush on the Champs-Élysées), and she explained to the manager of the Grand Mosque's restaurant that we hadn't come there simply because we saw it on "Emily in Paris" (which he said to one of the waiters, thinking we didn't speak any French), and she convinced a guard after closing time to let us see the courtyard of the Musée Carnavalet for just a few minutes.
Do my kids really know what living in Paris is like? Of course not! But all four of them now know more about it than many other casual visitors, and they made a real connection with an actual French person -- so I think the trip was worth the impact to the city.
But it was still a hard call to make.
posted by wenestvedt at 5:51 AM on June 5 [10 favorites]
I think tourism is good if the visitors arrive with humility, and leave having learned more about the people & places they saw.
But signal assured us it was a binary where people either aren't tourists or are "rich people flying somewhere to get drunk by a pool and snap selfies."
posted by DirtyOldTown at 5:54 AM on June 5 [9 favorites]
But signal assured us it was a binary where people either aren't tourists or are "rich people flying somewhere to get drunk by a pool and snap selfies."
posted by DirtyOldTown at 5:54 AM on June 5 [9 favorites]
As with a lot of things, I really can't come up with anything to say other than that I wish people who frequently travel would scale things back enough so that other people who don't travel at all could have an opportunity while still reducing the overall amount of travel.
If I get any more specific, I'm picking and choosing who gets to travel or where they can go, and that gets messy really quick.
But like if this is your sixth time flying to the see the Olympic Games or World Cup, do you really need to go a seventh time? Do you always need to travel overseas on your vacation to places where you have neither friends nor family? Are you telling yourself that you're experiencing the world even though you never leave the confines of the resort?
posted by RonButNotStupid at 5:57 AM on June 5 [9 favorites]
If I get any more specific, I'm picking and choosing who gets to travel or where they can go, and that gets messy really quick.
But like if this is your sixth time flying to the see the Olympic Games or World Cup, do you really need to go a seventh time? Do you always need to travel overseas on your vacation to places where you have neither friends nor family? Are you telling yourself that you're experiencing the world even though you never leave the confines of the resort?
posted by RonButNotStupid at 5:57 AM on June 5 [9 favorites]
My wife and I just came back from a two week trip through Northern Italy and France, and found it to be a pretty mixed experience. Yes, the cities and sights were beautiful, but crowds very much blunted our ability to enjoy them. We cut short visits to the Louvre and The Doge's Palace simply because we were spending so much time and mental effort negotiating crowds we weren't able to actually appreciate any of the art or history. So we had to ask ourselves, "what's the point of being here if 'here' is basically the equivalent of dealing with a Black Friday shopping mall but a little more picturesque?" then we'd bail.
Some of our favorite experiences from the trip were going to lower traffic places like the Dolomites; where the tourist crush was absent and people were more chill and you got more of a sense of place. Also on that part of the trip, we would hike and the great outdoors has a great ability to absorb and spread out crowds.
We also spent a part of the trip hanging out with friends who live in Switzerland and one of them uses social media for a non trivial part of their travel planning research; so got to observe them seeking out particular places that would let them take that iconic shot of a pretty street or church that a million other people have posted to Insta; but now they have a picture and memory that is their very own. Then we'd watch all of the other people queueing behind them waiting for their turn to take that One Photo.
It's behavior that, like a lot of tourist behaviors, that is Part of the Problem, but how do you change that behavior effectively? For a long time in outdoors communities we would tell people "leave no trace. Take only photographs." But I wonder if we're going to get to a point with population where we start telling people not to take photos.
I get why there's a faction of us who believe that travel needs to be reduced and flights are sin, but as an immigrant who had to cross oceans to live here, I can't but feel like that position basically says that people like me should not be. We should stay in the communities that we are born to and we should be happy with that.
And I think, as a people, we are better because of travel. We have more vibrant and creative cities when they are made up of a diverse array of foreigners and locals. I don't think it will be healthy for us as a global community if the movement of people gets more restricted; but I do worry about what happens as the world's population continues to grow.
When Venice put in its daytripper tax, it was explicit how the target of the tax was not Asian or American tourists (those folks tend to get hotels in Venice and are this exempt from the tax). It was other Italians going on day trips. Overtourism is a symptom of overpopulation; and even if we were to ban jet travel and require people to only travel by train you're only buying places like Venice or Florence a decade or so before they're overrun again by Europeans who are coming in cars, buses and trains. What are the policies or approaches that we can use that will work for a planet of 8 billion people? 10 billion? 12?
posted by bl1nk at 6:01 AM on June 5 [22 favorites]
Some of our favorite experiences from the trip were going to lower traffic places like the Dolomites; where the tourist crush was absent and people were more chill and you got more of a sense of place. Also on that part of the trip, we would hike and the great outdoors has a great ability to absorb and spread out crowds.
We also spent a part of the trip hanging out with friends who live in Switzerland and one of them uses social media for a non trivial part of their travel planning research; so got to observe them seeking out particular places that would let them take that iconic shot of a pretty street or church that a million other people have posted to Insta; but now they have a picture and memory that is their very own. Then we'd watch all of the other people queueing behind them waiting for their turn to take that One Photo.
It's behavior that, like a lot of tourist behaviors, that is Part of the Problem, but how do you change that behavior effectively? For a long time in outdoors communities we would tell people "leave no trace. Take only photographs." But I wonder if we're going to get to a point with population where we start telling people not to take photos.
I get why there's a faction of us who believe that travel needs to be reduced and flights are sin, but as an immigrant who had to cross oceans to live here, I can't but feel like that position basically says that people like me should not be. We should stay in the communities that we are born to and we should be happy with that.
And I think, as a people, we are better because of travel. We have more vibrant and creative cities when they are made up of a diverse array of foreigners and locals. I don't think it will be healthy for us as a global community if the movement of people gets more restricted; but I do worry about what happens as the world's population continues to grow.
When Venice put in its daytripper tax, it was explicit how the target of the tax was not Asian or American tourists (those folks tend to get hotels in Venice and are this exempt from the tax). It was other Italians going on day trips. Overtourism is a symptom of overpopulation; and even if we were to ban jet travel and require people to only travel by train you're only buying places like Venice or Florence a decade or so before they're overrun again by Europeans who are coming in cars, buses and trains. What are the policies or approaches that we can use that will work for a planet of 8 billion people? 10 billion? 12?
posted by bl1nk at 6:01 AM on June 5 [22 favorites]
A tourist does not actually have to:
-only visit the most crowded places
-only go at the busiest times
-only stay in resorts and corporate hotels
-only eat at chain restaurants
-only show up to snap pictures and leave
-only engage with other tourists or staff for tourists
-show contempt for locals
A tourist can actually:
-go to lesser-trod places that can appreciate the visitors and income without the location being based around them
-avoid times that will be overcrowded, so as not to exacerbate that
-stay in locally-owned places, so that the money doesn't disappear into corporate coffers
-eat local
-focus on trying and learning new things rather than selfies
-make new friends
With tourism, as with most things, there are a million little choices a person can make that affect the impact they make or don't make, and whether their presence is positive or negative.
This is not hard to grasp and there is no net gain to this conversation by smugly ignoring all of the above.
Talking about how we travel is useful. Talking about how to travel responsibly, both in method and in frequency, is useful. Talking about the environmental costs of travel is useful.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:08 AM on June 5 [28 favorites]
-only visit the most crowded places
-only go at the busiest times
-only stay in resorts and corporate hotels
-only eat at chain restaurants
-only show up to snap pictures and leave
-only engage with other tourists or staff for tourists
-show contempt for locals
A tourist can actually:
-go to lesser-trod places that can appreciate the visitors and income without the location being based around them
-avoid times that will be overcrowded, so as not to exacerbate that
-stay in locally-owned places, so that the money doesn't disappear into corporate coffers
-eat local
-focus on trying and learning new things rather than selfies
-make new friends
With tourism, as with most things, there are a million little choices a person can make that affect the impact they make or don't make, and whether their presence is positive or negative.
This is not hard to grasp and there is no net gain to this conversation by smugly ignoring all of the above.
Talking about how we travel is useful. Talking about how to travel responsibly, both in method and in frequency, is useful. Talking about the environmental costs of travel is useful.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:08 AM on June 5 [28 favorites]
I could pretend that I'm making an ethical sacrifice in avoiding travel, but the truth is I've just become more and more of a homebody as time has gone on, and I sleep like absolute garbage anywhere but my own home, so while there's so much in the world I'd love to see and experience... I just don't want to go there. I figure there's no reason to push myself given the downstream consequences of wealthy (on a global scale) people doing international travel.
posted by obfuscation at 6:09 AM on June 5 [4 favorites]
posted by obfuscation at 6:09 AM on June 5 [4 favorites]
the problem is not the tourists, it's capitalism
And the massive disparities in wealth and opportunity that result.
I think this is largely true.
Imagine wealth disparity did not exist, and youths from everywhere could go everywhere, to stay at government funded hostels. It was considered a thing you did to broaden your views and perspectives, as a young person. I think we would in fact be better citizens. Travel does broaden the perspective and increase the connectedness of people. And such travel wouldn’t have such an impact if we weren’t limiting it by who can pay and jacking up prices such that only the rich could afford it.
posted by corb at 6:12 AM on June 5 [17 favorites]
And the massive disparities in wealth and opportunity that result.
I think this is largely true.
Imagine wealth disparity did not exist, and youths from everywhere could go everywhere, to stay at government funded hostels. It was considered a thing you did to broaden your views and perspectives, as a young person. I think we would in fact be better citizens. Travel does broaden the perspective and increase the connectedness of people. And such travel wouldn’t have such an impact if we weren’t limiting it by who can pay and jacking up prices such that only the rich could afford it.
posted by corb at 6:12 AM on June 5 [17 favorites]
We went to the D-Day beaches and the Normandy American Cemetery on January 2nd, in a howling, soaking rainstorm. Everything was closed, so it was really just our guide and us. (Like, for lunch we ate gas station sandwiches, standing in a picnic shelter.) We got soaked through our clothes every time we stepped out of the van, but we also saw the places without distraction from other people.
All day -- and it was a long day -- our guide lectured about history and context and the war, played period music and radio broadcasts and speeches, and showed pictures and maps on an iPad.
Despite the weather he insisted, "You need to see this cemetery, as Americans. You need to know how the French around here value the people who are buried here." It's a lesson that left a big impact on the kids.
posted by wenestvedt at 6:15 AM on June 5 [13 favorites]
All day -- and it was a long day -- our guide lectured about history and context and the war, played period music and radio broadcasts and speeches, and showed pictures and maps on an iPad.
Despite the weather he insisted, "You need to see this cemetery, as Americans. You need to know how the French around here value the people who are buried here." It's a lesson that left a big impact on the kids.
posted by wenestvedt at 6:15 AM on June 5 [13 favorites]
Hum. There's been some news that the Atlantic meridional overturning circulation is on the verge of collapse. At this point, maybe this talk of whether or not travel is ethical, necessary, broadens minds and brings peace is completely moot, because if people continue to travel, it contributes to global warming. Anyway, I've met some young Europeans who get the grant to travel and study (while I was in Moscow). They just spend their time getting drunk and being a nuisance to the people who have to clean up after them.
As for me, full disclosure, travelled a bit in better times. Haven't stepped foot near an airport in years.
posted by Didnt_do_enough at 6:30 AM on June 5 [7 favorites]
As for me, full disclosure, travelled a bit in better times. Haven't stepped foot near an airport in years.
posted by Didnt_do_enough at 6:30 AM on June 5 [7 favorites]
Oh also in case folks want a citation for my claim about how Venice was targeting its tax at other Italians, I got it from this Guardian article, key paragraph:
But of course, this is Metafilter so let's once again just focus on our favorite demographics to shit on.
posted by bl1nk at 6:33 AM on June 5 [17 favorites]
Venturini (Venice's councillor for tourism) said the fee was mostly aimed at deterring Italian day-trippers. “For example, a lot of Italians come to the nearby beaches in summer and, on a rainy day, they overwhelm Venice. Yes, the majority are from Veneto and are exempt, but the fact they still have to go online to confirm this is a way to disincentivise them.”Banning jet travel won't fix this. This is not just a "spoiled influencers that we love to shit on behaving shittily" problem, this is not just a "jet setting billionaires who are first up against the wall when the revolution comes problem", this is not just "an ugly Americans with their bucket lists problem". It is all that and a "densely connected Europe with high speed rail deciding what to do on their weekends" problem and a "Italians with long vacations and leisure time problem" and a "Global South who finally has a middle class with 2 billion people" problem.
But of course, this is Metafilter so let's once again just focus on our favorite demographics to shit on.
posted by bl1nk at 6:33 AM on June 5 [17 favorites]
Noel Coward, commenting on the situation in 1961.
posted by gimonca at 6:58 AM on June 5 [1 favorite]
posted by gimonca at 6:58 AM on June 5 [1 favorite]
I wish people who frequently travel would scale things back enough so that other people who don't travel at all could have an opportunity while still reducing the overall amount of travel.
maybe this talk of whether or not travel is ethical, necessary, broadens minds and brings peace is completely moot, because if people continue to travel, it contributes to global warming.
This is one possible future. As the climate crisis ratchets up and civilization responses stagger into life, we could see less travel overall. Reducing air transportation (until we get the aerial equivalent of EVs or consumer-grade blimps; neither coming up soon, alas) will cut our ability to get to places, globally. Sure, Europeans can train around Europe and people along the Pacific coast of China can voyage there, and so on. But a good chunk of travelers have air as the best option, or the only option, except for ships.
I've been trying to decarbonize my own travel, and it's.... not good. For 20 years I've traveled extensively for work, across the US and to every continent except Antarctica. I live in the DC area, so I can train effectively along the eastern seaboard. Hitting up the south, the midwest becomes a lot harder, as Amtrak to those locations has spotty coverage, awful delays, laughable Wifi (cell coverage isn't great, either), and burns diesel. Reaching the west coast is even worse.
Right now I'm considering restricting my professional work to the old 13 colonies and doing the rest on video (synchronous as time zones allow, recorded otherwise). This might cost me a lot.
posted by doctornemo at 7:04 AM on June 5 [5 favorites]
maybe this talk of whether or not travel is ethical, necessary, broadens minds and brings peace is completely moot, because if people continue to travel, it contributes to global warming.
This is one possible future. As the climate crisis ratchets up and civilization responses stagger into life, we could see less travel overall. Reducing air transportation (until we get the aerial equivalent of EVs or consumer-grade blimps; neither coming up soon, alas) will cut our ability to get to places, globally. Sure, Europeans can train around Europe and people along the Pacific coast of China can voyage there, and so on. But a good chunk of travelers have air as the best option, or the only option, except for ships.
I've been trying to decarbonize my own travel, and it's.... not good. For 20 years I've traveled extensively for work, across the US and to every continent except Antarctica. I live in the DC area, so I can train effectively along the eastern seaboard. Hitting up the south, the midwest becomes a lot harder, as Amtrak to those locations has spotty coverage, awful delays, laughable Wifi (cell coverage isn't great, either), and burns diesel. Reaching the west coast is even worse.
Right now I'm considering restricting my professional work to the old 13 colonies and doing the rest on video (synchronous as time zones allow, recorded otherwise). This might cost me a lot.
posted by doctornemo at 7:04 AM on June 5 [5 favorites]
I live in North Carolina, where we love our beaches and our mountains. "Variety Vacationland" was an old slogan here. I have a number of friends who live in some of the beach communities. And come summer, they never stop complaining about the tourists. I have no sympathy.
posted by 3.2.3 at 7:10 AM on June 5 [1 favorite]
posted by 3.2.3 at 7:10 AM on June 5 [1 favorite]
This is not hard to grasp and there is no net gain to this conversation by smugly ignoring all of the above.
This seems like a personal responsibility lens on what is more of a systemic problem. Wealthy people are turning people's homes into commoditoes for other rich people. I doubt you are going to get enough change appealing to their better angels.
I really don't think that in this increasingly fractured world we want the message to be that everyone should stay tightly locked in their own home, exploring and understanding nothing at all about the rest of the globe.
How much tourism actually does anything to help people understand and grow in reality? Given who has had access to routine travel, I think the evidence for it creating empathy or broadening cultural horizons is very slim. I think that on the whole, the world would be a lot better off without whatever empathy or life lessons travel taught people, if it were also spared the carbon emissions and economic exploitation.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 7:12 AM on June 5 [13 favorites]
This seems like a personal responsibility lens on what is more of a systemic problem. Wealthy people are turning people's homes into commoditoes for other rich people. I doubt you are going to get enough change appealing to their better angels.
I really don't think that in this increasingly fractured world we want the message to be that everyone should stay tightly locked in their own home, exploring and understanding nothing at all about the rest of the globe.
How much tourism actually does anything to help people understand and grow in reality? Given who has had access to routine travel, I think the evidence for it creating empathy or broadening cultural horizons is very slim. I think that on the whole, the world would be a lot better off without whatever empathy or life lessons travel taught people, if it were also spared the carbon emissions and economic exploitation.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 7:12 AM on June 5 [13 favorites]
> One of my wildest dreams is that heavier than air flight is strictly reserved for emergencies. If humans or human components need to be transported from point A to point B immediately over terrain to prevent death, then we collectively agree to spend the carbon in those circumstances. All other matter movement can wait (sentient or otherwise), nothing is truly that urgent, and I bet there's hardly even any turbulence on a rigid airship.
For 1$/kg turning atmospheric CO2 into trapped carbon is economical. (This is 1000$/tonne) You can build yourself a solar or wind farm (or buy power from someone else's) and use that electricity to capture carbon.
1$/kg is a high carbon price; but 1 L of gasoline is 2.3 kg of CO2 emitted, or 2.3$ extra. This increases gasoline prices by 100%-150%.
Jet A1 fuel is about 0.8$/KG and produces 2.5 kg of CO2; so carbon-neutral Jet A1 fuel costs would be 3.3$/KG.
Fuel costs are about 22% of operating expenses. Multiplying it by 4 would require prices 66%-100% higher than current to pay for it.
Once deployed at scale, getting it under 1$/kg is going to happen (not that much lower, as entropy provides a hard barrier; it will never be energy positive to turn solar power into carbon fuel then burn that fuel).
We can literally fly using zero carbon emissions in conventional current-generation heavier than air craft for under twice current prices. This is still under the price of air travel back in the 1980s. This isn't "emergencies only" or "you have to use blimps", it is just "flights cost a bit more".
Sure, that means long distance trips are a bit more expensive. And the poorer parts of the world are hit harder by the higher costs; but under zero carbon, there is no reason you can't increase energy usage and standard of living of the poorest parts of the world to reach industrialized y2k levels.
The climate crisis is a problem of "who pays for it"; the problem is solved, technologically, just not economically or politically.
posted by NotAYakk at 7:19 AM on June 5 [10 favorites]
For 1$/kg turning atmospheric CO2 into trapped carbon is economical. (This is 1000$/tonne) You can build yourself a solar or wind farm (or buy power from someone else's) and use that electricity to capture carbon.
1$/kg is a high carbon price; but 1 L of gasoline is 2.3 kg of CO2 emitted, or 2.3$ extra. This increases gasoline prices by 100%-150%.
Jet A1 fuel is about 0.8$/KG and produces 2.5 kg of CO2; so carbon-neutral Jet A1 fuel costs would be 3.3$/KG.
Fuel costs are about 22% of operating expenses. Multiplying it by 4 would require prices 66%-100% higher than current to pay for it.
Once deployed at scale, getting it under 1$/kg is going to happen (not that much lower, as entropy provides a hard barrier; it will never be energy positive to turn solar power into carbon fuel then burn that fuel).
We can literally fly using zero carbon emissions in conventional current-generation heavier than air craft for under twice current prices. This is still under the price of air travel back in the 1980s. This isn't "emergencies only" or "you have to use blimps", it is just "flights cost a bit more".
Sure, that means long distance trips are a bit more expensive. And the poorer parts of the world are hit harder by the higher costs; but under zero carbon, there is no reason you can't increase energy usage and standard of living of the poorest parts of the world to reach industrialized y2k levels.
The climate crisis is a problem of "who pays for it"; the problem is solved, technologically, just not economically or politically.
posted by NotAYakk at 7:19 AM on June 5 [10 favorites]
How much tourism actually does anything to help people understand and grow in reality?
When I was a Callow Youth, I made plenty of jokes like how French tanks in WWII only had one gear (i.e., reverse -- that is, they only retreated and surrendered).
When I had spent some time in France and learned more about their amazing history as a global superpower and shared beers with actual French people and heard a fat man in a beret cry "Zut alors!" and seen the art up close and said a few prayers in those gorgeous cathedrals... Well, I stopped making ignorant jokes, and later, I taught my kids about how much America owes to France, historically, and demonstrated how France is pretty cool. And now one of my kids is in college with a French minor, so *Gallic shrug* I guess that's something?
posted by wenestvedt at 7:21 AM on June 5 [19 favorites]
When I was a Callow Youth, I made plenty of jokes like how French tanks in WWII only had one gear (i.e., reverse -- that is, they only retreated and surrendered).
When I had spent some time in France and learned more about their amazing history as a global superpower and shared beers with actual French people and heard a fat man in a beret cry "Zut alors!" and seen the art up close and said a few prayers in those gorgeous cathedrals... Well, I stopped making ignorant jokes, and later, I taught my kids about how much America owes to France, historically, and demonstrated how France is pretty cool. And now one of my kids is in college with a French minor, so *Gallic shrug* I guess that's something?
posted by wenestvedt at 7:21 AM on June 5 [19 favorites]
I mean, anyone who can afford to fly internationally and vacation, to me personally, is rich. I cannot afford that nor can the majority of citizens of earth.
That's a big slice of environmental and social BS by one ultimately privelaged slice of the pie. That's simply facts.
posted by wellifyouinsist at 7:22 AM on June 5 [14 favorites]
That's a big slice of environmental and social BS by one ultimately privelaged slice of the pie. That's simply facts.
posted by wellifyouinsist at 7:22 AM on June 5 [14 favorites]
Again, there are so many places I'd love to see and visit before I pop my clogs, but international travel is now of reach for me as a middle class person. The last time Shepherd and I went to London in 2015 (his youngest sister lives outside the city with her family) it wasn't too bad costwise with the airfare, and we got lucky in housesitting for a friend of his sister who lived outside London, so our lodging was free. We'd love to go over and see them again (as well as all our Barbelith friends in London itself, those friendships have passed the 20 year mark now) but we can't afford airfare/lodging/etc these days.
I live in a tourist city myself. Our downtown is adorable but it is absolutely useless for anything practical for us downtown residents. Nowhere to get a house key cut, but hey, would you like to visit yet another expensive boutique??
posted by Kitteh at 7:30 AM on June 5 [5 favorites]
I live in a tourist city myself. Our downtown is adorable but it is absolutely useless for anything practical for us downtown residents. Nowhere to get a house key cut, but hey, would you like to visit yet another expensive boutique??
posted by Kitteh at 7:30 AM on June 5 [5 favorites]
I looked up how much aviation (in general, not just for travel) contributes to climate change compared to everything else (2-3% depending on the source):
https://ourworldindata.org/ghg-emissions-by-sector
posted by exolstice at 7:35 AM on June 5 [2 favorites]
https://ourworldindata.org/ghg-emissions-by-sector
posted by exolstice at 7:35 AM on June 5 [2 favorites]
How much tourism actually does anything to help people understand and grow in reality? Given who has had access to routine travel, I think the evidence for it creating empathy or broadening cultural horizons is very slim. I think that on the whole, the world would be a lot better off without whatever empathy or life lessons travel taught people, if it were also spared the carbon emissions and economic exploitation.
That's an example of the view I mentioned earlier.
posted by doctornemo at 7:37 AM on June 5 [1 favorite]
That's an example of the view I mentioned earlier.
posted by doctornemo at 7:37 AM on June 5 [1 favorite]
How much tourism actually does anything to help people understand and grow in reality?
I feel this is the kind of question you can only ask if you've never lived personally in a community where few people have ever traveled far or lived elsewhere (or given serious attention to another time or place where this was the case). The blind provincialism and herd instinct of humankind is hard enough to overcome with the ability to get sharp reminders that other people live in ways quite different from your own without falling into anarchy or getting smote by God.
That said, I read that NYT article yesterday feeling nothing but support for places trying to manage what are correctly described as the negative externalities of travel with more aggressive tools. As a former impecunious young person who traveled as best she could on a very limited budget in search of beauty, though, I hope they try as hard as they can to build into their schemes opportunities for people who aren't wealthy to gain access. Prioritizing student/young person travel is a good idea, the best way to prime people with the idea with the idea that the customs of their own tribes aren't natural law. (Yes, young people are going to be young people everywhere. Travel isn't a magic tonic.)
posted by praemunire at 7:39 AM on June 5 [14 favorites]
I feel this is the kind of question you can only ask if you've never lived personally in a community where few people have ever traveled far or lived elsewhere (or given serious attention to another time or place where this was the case). The blind provincialism and herd instinct of humankind is hard enough to overcome with the ability to get sharp reminders that other people live in ways quite different from your own without falling into anarchy or getting smote by God.
That said, I read that NYT article yesterday feeling nothing but support for places trying to manage what are correctly described as the negative externalities of travel with more aggressive tools. As a former impecunious young person who traveled as best she could on a very limited budget in search of beauty, though, I hope they try as hard as they can to build into their schemes opportunities for people who aren't wealthy to gain access. Prioritizing student/young person travel is a good idea, the best way to prime people with the idea with the idea that the customs of their own tribes aren't natural law. (Yes, young people are going to be young people everywhere. Travel isn't a magic tonic.)
posted by praemunire at 7:39 AM on June 5 [14 favorites]
This seems like a personal responsibility lens on what is more of a systemic problem. Wealthy people are turning people's homes into commoditoes for other rich people. I doubt you are going to get enough change appealing to their better angels.
The personal lens is important because it reminds us that while it might be rhetorically useful to treat Travel as one monolithic thing, the variety of ways it can be approached and done mean that the various problems associated with travel are not specifcally caused by travel, so much as they are by how unfettered capitalism manipulates travel.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:39 AM on June 5 [8 favorites]
The personal lens is important because it reminds us that while it might be rhetorically useful to treat Travel as one monolithic thing, the variety of ways it can be approached and done mean that the various problems associated with travel are not specifcally caused by travel, so much as they are by how unfettered capitalism manipulates travel.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:39 AM on June 5 [8 favorites]
Glad I did European travel when. I was 19 in 1967. It was great fun, not overly crowded. I can't imagine doing it now.
posted by Czjewel at 7:40 AM on June 5 [2 favorites]
posted by Czjewel at 7:40 AM on June 5 [2 favorites]
Our downtown is adorable but it is absolutely useless for anything practical for us downtown residents. Nowhere to get a house key cut, but hey, would you like to visit yet another expensive boutique??
Great news--you can get that situation without tourism, too. Hooray for late capitalism!
(Also European cultural hegemony which means traveling to the beautiful/historic European and sometimes American places is so disproportionately popular when there are beautiful/historic places all over the world. TikTok kids are downstream of centuries of violence and exploitation.)
posted by praemunire at 7:43 AM on June 5 [2 favorites]
Great news--you can get that situation without tourism, too. Hooray for late capitalism!
(Also European cultural hegemony which means traveling to the beautiful/historic European and sometimes American places is so disproportionately popular when there are beautiful/historic places all over the world. TikTok kids are downstream of centuries of violence and exploitation.)
posted by praemunire at 7:43 AM on June 5 [2 favorites]
Any conversation we have about "the problems with travel" is really just "another look at the problems with capitalism," but with sunscreen and a fanny pack.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:47 AM on June 5 [12 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:47 AM on June 5 [12 favorites]
Great news--you can get that situation without tourism, too. Hooray for late capitalism!
Not sure why you thought that was helpful, but okay. My gripe is that my historical lil city caters to tourists more than they do us residents, and while I am sure in your books that is totes normal because of capitalism (no argument there), I would like to be able to get practical things done as someone who doesn't own a car and can't just skip out to the suburbs where keys can be made.
posted by Kitteh at 7:56 AM on June 5 [3 favorites]
Not sure why you thought that was helpful, but okay. My gripe is that my historical lil city caters to tourists more than they do us residents, and while I am sure in your books that is totes normal because of capitalism (no argument there), I would like to be able to get practical things done as someone who doesn't own a car and can't just skip out to the suburbs where keys can be made.
posted by Kitteh at 7:56 AM on June 5 [3 favorites]
I get the feeling that the people in this thread who are dunking on Americans flying everywhere and wrecking everything are the same people who in other threads say "Americans are so insular, they don't care about anything outside their own country, look how many of them don't even have a passport because they'd rather just go to Disney World than travel someplace real."
posted by Daily Alice at 8:10 AM on June 5 [20 favorites]
posted by Daily Alice at 8:10 AM on June 5 [20 favorites]
My gripe is that my historical lil city caters to tourists more than they do us residents, and while I am sure in your books that is totes normal because of capitalism (no argument there), I would like to be able to get practical things done as someone who doesn't own a car and can't just skip out to the suburbs where keys can be made.
This is similar to a comment I saw in a discussion about "fifteen-minute cities" - that if the majority of the support people working in the city center can't afford to LIVE there and go about their everyday lives there, then you don't have a city, you have a theme park.
...And I'm gonna throw shade on a certain category of tourist - the influencers. This is the stereotypical Rude Tourist who is trying to monetize their rude travel habits - not only are they seeking out the most "aesthetic" views, hopping over barriers to get the best photos, seeking out the most fancy-ass food, and generally doing all the rude things you think they're doing, they're also doing so in an effort to get more people to do the same.
And happily, they're not only an issue with travel - they are an issue with more local things too. I belong to a walking group that occasionally takes long walks in NYC, and during a recent walk along the High Line, I passed at least three pairings of an influencer who'd blithely ignored the "keep out" signs and was doing a yoga pose in the middle of a bed of plants while her boyfriend stood dead-center in the walking path trying to get her picture.
The influencers are regularly the ones picking endangered wildflowers in National Parks so they can pose with a photo, or taking posed selfies at Auschwitz, or hassling other travelers to get out of their shots, or demanding discounts because of "exposure" - you name it.
It's them, hi, they're the problem, it's them.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:18 AM on June 5 [19 favorites]
This is similar to a comment I saw in a discussion about "fifteen-minute cities" - that if the majority of the support people working in the city center can't afford to LIVE there and go about their everyday lives there, then you don't have a city, you have a theme park.
...And I'm gonna throw shade on a certain category of tourist - the influencers. This is the stereotypical Rude Tourist who is trying to monetize their rude travel habits - not only are they seeking out the most "aesthetic" views, hopping over barriers to get the best photos, seeking out the most fancy-ass food, and generally doing all the rude things you think they're doing, they're also doing so in an effort to get more people to do the same.
And happily, they're not only an issue with travel - they are an issue with more local things too. I belong to a walking group that occasionally takes long walks in NYC, and during a recent walk along the High Line, I passed at least three pairings of an influencer who'd blithely ignored the "keep out" signs and was doing a yoga pose in the middle of a bed of plants while her boyfriend stood dead-center in the walking path trying to get her picture.
The influencers are regularly the ones picking endangered wildflowers in National Parks so they can pose with a photo, or taking posed selfies at Auschwitz, or hassling other travelers to get out of their shots, or demanding discounts because of "exposure" - you name it.
It's them, hi, they're the problem, it's them.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:18 AM on June 5 [19 favorites]
Not sure why you thought that was helpful, but okay.
Because if the issue is whether travel causes the (real!) problem you've identified, pointing out that this is a common scenario even in places without travel (but with wealth) is highly relevant. If your town had no tourists, only wealthy seasonal residents of summer/winter (depending on location) homes, you'd have much the same problem. Under our current system as it has developed in the past 25 years or so, if your town had neither tourists nor moneyed residents, you'd have just about fuck-all. (It's a bad system.)
I would like to be able to get practical things done as someone who doesn't own a car and can't just skip out to the suburbs where keys can be made.
I've never owned a car and I live in a city (NYC) where we have tourists coming out of not only our ears, but every other orifice as well. My daily routine, as well as my access to some of the experiences that are part of my reason for living here, is regularly impeded by the wandering hordes. It's a peculiar assumption that this opinion would be held by someone with an oblivious suburbanite point of view.
posted by praemunire at 8:18 AM on June 5 [3 favorites]
Because if the issue is whether travel causes the (real!) problem you've identified, pointing out that this is a common scenario even in places without travel (but with wealth) is highly relevant. If your town had no tourists, only wealthy seasonal residents of summer/winter (depending on location) homes, you'd have much the same problem. Under our current system as it has developed in the past 25 years or so, if your town had neither tourists nor moneyed residents, you'd have just about fuck-all. (It's a bad system.)
I would like to be able to get practical things done as someone who doesn't own a car and can't just skip out to the suburbs where keys can be made.
I've never owned a car and I live in a city (NYC) where we have tourists coming out of not only our ears, but every other orifice as well. My daily routine, as well as my access to some of the experiences that are part of my reason for living here, is regularly impeded by the wandering hordes. It's a peculiar assumption that this opinion would be held by someone with an oblivious suburbanite point of view.
posted by praemunire at 8:18 AM on June 5 [3 favorites]
I live in a city (NYC) where we have tourists coming out of not only our ears, but every other orifice as well
Reaping the whirlwind of, uhh centuries of violence and exploitation?
posted by ambrosen at 8:22 AM on June 5 [1 favorite]
Reaping the whirlwind of, uhh centuries of violence and exploitation?
posted by ambrosen at 8:22 AM on June 5 [1 favorite]
This is the stereotypical Rude Tourist who is trying to monetize their rude travel habits
This is a category I am happy to cast shade at, as their monetary incentives to behave selfishly (at best) to get the "best" or "famous" image have had the effect you might think they would...but I'm not sure it is, in the end, a huge group, or that even if we somehow could ban them, it would help much. I took my mom to Paris in ~2014, so really before the modern era of travel "influencer." I had already seen the Mona Lisa in my earlier travels (and to be honest, I don't rank it all that highly). I would've been very happy to skip that gallery of the Louvre, but my mom, who is just a retired nurse from the Midwest whose only social media is Facebook (ugh), wanted to see "the big dog" and get a crummy cell-phone picture. She seemed to think that was the thing she had to do. The place was absolutely packed, even back then.
posted by praemunire at 8:28 AM on June 5 [1 favorite]
This is a category I am happy to cast shade at, as their monetary incentives to behave selfishly (at best) to get the "best" or "famous" image have had the effect you might think they would...but I'm not sure it is, in the end, a huge group, or that even if we somehow could ban them, it would help much. I took my mom to Paris in ~2014, so really before the modern era of travel "influencer." I had already seen the Mona Lisa in my earlier travels (and to be honest, I don't rank it all that highly). I would've been very happy to skip that gallery of the Louvre, but my mom, who is just a retired nurse from the Midwest whose only social media is Facebook (ugh), wanted to see "the big dog" and get a crummy cell-phone picture. She seemed to think that was the thing she had to do. The place was absolutely packed, even back then.
posted by praemunire at 8:28 AM on June 5 [1 favorite]
Reaping the whirlwind of, uhh centuries of violence and exploitation?
Are you expecting me to disagree with this?
posted by praemunire at 8:29 AM on June 5 [1 favorite]
Are you expecting me to disagree with this?
posted by praemunire at 8:29 AM on June 5 [1 favorite]
Reaping the whirlwind of, uhh centuries of violence and exploitation?
Excuse me?
It seems that you are suggesting that the everyday residents of a given place deserve mistreatment because a handful of bad people from that place having committed misdeeds. If that is in fact what you're saying - can you clarify whether you think this one location is unique in that regard, or can you point to a location on Earth where there have been no bad actors on the global stage?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:29 AM on June 5 [3 favorites]
Excuse me?
It seems that you are suggesting that the everyday residents of a given place deserve mistreatment because a handful of bad people from that place having committed misdeeds. If that is in fact what you're saying - can you clarify whether you think this one location is unique in that regard, or can you point to a location on Earth where there have been no bad actors on the global stage?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:29 AM on June 5 [3 favorites]
I feel this is the kind of question you can only ask if you've never lived personally in a community where few people have ever traveled far or lived elsewhere (or given serious attention to another time or place where this was the case). The blind provincialism and herd instinct of humankind is hard enough to overcome with the ability to get sharp reminders that other people live in ways quite different from your own without falling into anarchy or getting smote by God.
I do in fact live in a place where very few people have traveled. I am poor, and so is my community. Most people I know are on some combination of social security, disability, or welfare, and terrible jobs. I don't notice them being particularly more provincial or bigoted than the world travelers I have had cause to interact with.
Someone said they learned not to make insensitive, offensive jokes about foreign people by traveling. That is great. But a lot of people have learned to do that without traveling anywhere.
I can believe travel is a fantastic experience, but it is a luxury. Trying to morally rationalize it as some net good for civilization or personal spiritual growth is a stretch.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 8:30 AM on June 5 [13 favorites]
I do in fact live in a place where very few people have traveled. I am poor, and so is my community. Most people I know are on some combination of social security, disability, or welfare, and terrible jobs. I don't notice them being particularly more provincial or bigoted than the world travelers I have had cause to interact with.
Someone said they learned not to make insensitive, offensive jokes about foreign people by traveling. That is great. But a lot of people have learned to do that without traveling anywhere.
I can believe travel is a fantastic experience, but it is a luxury. Trying to morally rationalize it as some net good for civilization or personal spiritual growth is a stretch.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 8:30 AM on June 5 [13 favorites]
Most people I know are on some combination of social security, disability, or welfare, and terrible jobs. I don't notice them being particularly more provincial or bigoted than the world travelers I have had cause to interact with.
I notice that you don't mention cultural or ethnic (i.e., that most commonly implicated by travel) diversity here. Or how your poor/disabled/anarchist friends get treated by the local power structures, by which I mean not just City Hall but, like, the local churches.
Travel, as I said, is not a magic tonic. Nonetheless, if we could overcome the externalities (that's the very big if that is very much legitimately raised in this FPP), of course it's better for people to have seen, informally and up close, different ways of living and making meaning, different social structures and different landscapes, than to not have! Don't turn leftist virtue into a cell you're constantly shrinking lest a sunbeam that falls in somehow be oppressive.
Trying to morally rationalize it as some net good for civilization or personal spiritual growth
I have actually had spiritual experiences seeing (to pick ones easy to understand without context) the Red Rocks of Sedona and the Icelandic landscape. All due respect, but you can't tell me I haven't. Henry James didn't make this up:
I notice that you don't mention cultural or ethnic (i.e., that most commonly implicated by travel) diversity here. Or how your poor/disabled/anarchist friends get treated by the local power structures, by which I mean not just City Hall but, like, the local churches.
Travel, as I said, is not a magic tonic. Nonetheless, if we could overcome the externalities (that's the very big if that is very much legitimately raised in this FPP), of course it's better for people to have seen, informally and up close, different ways of living and making meaning, different social structures and different landscapes, than to not have! Don't turn leftist virtue into a cell you're constantly shrinking lest a sunbeam that falls in somehow be oppressive.
Trying to morally rationalize it as some net good for civilization or personal spiritual growth
I have actually had spiritual experiences seeing (to pick ones easy to understand without context) the Red Rocks of Sedona and the Icelandic landscape. All due respect, but you can't tell me I haven't. Henry James didn't make this up:
She had not been one of the superior tourists who are "disappointed" in Saint Peter's and find it smaller than its fame; the first time she passed beneath the huge leathern curtain that strains and bangs at the entrance, the first time she found herself beneath the far-arching dome and saw the light drizzle down through the air thickened with incense and with the reflections of marble and gilt, of mosaic and bronze, her conception of greatness rose and dizzily rose. After this it never lacked space to soar.posted by praemunire at 8:43 AM on June 5 [14 favorites]
I had the most unexpected overwhelming reaction (positively) the first and only time I went to Canterbury Cathedral. I did not expect to be moved to tears and I ain't even religious. It was an incredible moment.
posted by Kitteh at 8:48 AM on June 5 [6 favorites]
posted by Kitteh at 8:48 AM on June 5 [6 favorites]
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” — Mark Twain
posted by gottabefunky at 9:06 AM on June 5 [7 favorites]
posted by gottabefunky at 9:06 AM on June 5 [7 favorites]
I notice that you don't mention cultural or ethnic (i.e., that most commonly implicated by travel) diversity here. Or how your poor/disabled/anarchist friends get treated by the local power structures, by which I mean not just City Hall but, like, the local churches.
Travel, as I said, is not a magic tonic. Nonetheless, if we could overcome the externalities (that's the very big if that is very much legitimately raised in this FPP), of course it's better for people to have seen, informally and up close, different ways of living and making meaning, different social structures and different landscapes, than to not have! Don't turn leftist virtue into a cell you're constantly shrinking lest a sunbeam that falls in somehow be oppressive.
Sorry I was unclear. These aren't mostly anarchists or close friends. These are just my (almost entirely white) neighbors. I think most of them are Republicans with most of the rest just not engaging politically at all,. They are completely capable of having racist or otherwise bigoted attitudes. So are a lot of people I know who are far better traveled and far better off. A lot of middle class suburbanites have gone a lot of overseas trips and still manage to be just as backwards as the rest of us. My experience is that I have about equal chances of hearing something wildly racist from either set.
I suspect you'd see a much bigger shift in urbanites, who actually have to live with people of different origins and backgrounds, rather than just spending a few days or weeks some place "exotic".
posted by The Manwich Horror at 9:10 AM on June 5 [6 favorites]
Travel, as I said, is not a magic tonic. Nonetheless, if we could overcome the externalities (that's the very big if that is very much legitimately raised in this FPP), of course it's better for people to have seen, informally and up close, different ways of living and making meaning, different social structures and different landscapes, than to not have! Don't turn leftist virtue into a cell you're constantly shrinking lest a sunbeam that falls in somehow be oppressive.
Sorry I was unclear. These aren't mostly anarchists or close friends. These are just my (almost entirely white) neighbors. I think most of them are Republicans with most of the rest just not engaging politically at all,. They are completely capable of having racist or otherwise bigoted attitudes. So are a lot of people I know who are far better traveled and far better off. A lot of middle class suburbanites have gone a lot of overseas trips and still manage to be just as backwards as the rest of us. My experience is that I have about equal chances of hearing something wildly racist from either set.
I suspect you'd see a much bigger shift in urbanites, who actually have to live with people of different origins and backgrounds, rather than just spending a few days or weeks some place "exotic".
posted by The Manwich Horror at 9:10 AM on June 5 [6 favorites]
The influencers are regularly the ones picking endangered wildflowers in National Parks so they can pose with a photo, or taking posed selfies at Auschwitz, or hassling other travelers to get out of their shots, or demanding discounts because of "exposure" - you name it.
As someone who has worked in tourism in natural places on and off for 30+ years I can tell you that this is not by any stretch novel behaviour limited to influencers. I'd bet you sample enough pre photography paints you'll see plenty of portraits of people in fields of wild flowers and churches.
The specific details of the "exposure" thing is probably fairly new though not all that far removed from say people on pilgrimage subsisting on the generosity of strangers.
posted by Mitheral at 9:19 AM on June 5 [4 favorites]
As someone who has worked in tourism in natural places on and off for 30+ years I can tell you that this is not by any stretch novel behaviour limited to influencers. I'd bet you sample enough pre photography paints you'll see plenty of portraits of people in fields of wild flowers and churches.
The specific details of the "exposure" thing is probably fairly new though not all that far removed from say people on pilgrimage subsisting on the generosity of strangers.
posted by Mitheral at 9:19 AM on June 5 [4 favorites]
What are the policies or approaches that we can use that will work for a planet of 8 billion people? 10 billion? 12?
It's time to stop. The policy we need to implement is negative population growth until this planet can support us without damage. Maybe 5 billion, max. Every step we take is killing this earth and the other things that live on it. EVERYTHING we do is excess, and if we're going to survive and thrive here we need to stop. We're destroying the planet and ourselves with carbon excess, pollution-with a special mention of plastic production, and overconsumption.
It's not so much that we're traveling, it's the destruction we're causing while doing it. If we left fewer footprints because there were fewer of us, if we didn't consume, consume, consume continually, and if we didn't have the haves who take more than the need, traveling several times a year vs the have-nots, who don't get what they need or just get by and who can't leave their town or state, we might all be able to travel occasionally, judiciously, and appreciate the beauty of this planet and wonders humanity has created.
We need fewer people, housed, fed, educated, taken care of physically and mentally, who all have an opportunity to occasionally enjoy the things that only the privileged continually have access to.
Capitalism needs to die. The billionaires and influencers can be first to the hyperbolic guillotine.
posted by BlueHorse at 9:26 AM on June 5 [7 favorites]
It's time to stop. The policy we need to implement is negative population growth until this planet can support us without damage. Maybe 5 billion, max. Every step we take is killing this earth and the other things that live on it. EVERYTHING we do is excess, and if we're going to survive and thrive here we need to stop. We're destroying the planet and ourselves with carbon excess, pollution-with a special mention of plastic production, and overconsumption.
It's not so much that we're traveling, it's the destruction we're causing while doing it. If we left fewer footprints because there were fewer of us, if we didn't consume, consume, consume continually, and if we didn't have the haves who take more than the need, traveling several times a year vs the have-nots, who don't get what they need or just get by and who can't leave their town or state, we might all be able to travel occasionally, judiciously, and appreciate the beauty of this planet and wonders humanity has created.
We need fewer people, housed, fed, educated, taken care of physically and mentally, who all have an opportunity to occasionally enjoy the things that only the privileged continually have access to.
Capitalism needs to die. The billionaires and influencers can be first to the hyperbolic guillotine.
posted by BlueHorse at 9:26 AM on June 5 [7 favorites]
I suspect you'd see a much bigger shift in urbanites, who actually have to live with people of different origins and backgrounds, rather than just spending a few days or weeks some place "exotic".
This is a fair point, but I do think even a little can benefit those who are open to it (as opposed to checking off an item or conspicuously consuming or whatever).
I'm not trying to suggest that your neighbors are secretly Evil, but I wonder how much you hear of how they talk amongst themselves. I have the mixed blessing of a large extended Midwestern family that is/was, in the prior generation, all white, all Christian, mostly Republican, and mostly never traveling further than upstate. Some are mean-spirited by nature, some are just limited by life experience and narrow educations, at least until after retirement. It would have been better for all involved, I think, if some of them had been, as young people especially, to India, or even "just" Istanbul. (It doesn't always help, especially if the travel is in connection with killing the locals. My uncle on the other side certainly didn't learn anything from his time in uniform in Vietnam. But it can.) Did you ever read Bridge to Terabithia? Some of those TikTok kids are Jesse.
posted by praemunire at 9:29 AM on June 5 [3 favorites]
This is a fair point, but I do think even a little can benefit those who are open to it (as opposed to checking off an item or conspicuously consuming or whatever).
I'm not trying to suggest that your neighbors are secretly Evil, but I wonder how much you hear of how they talk amongst themselves. I have the mixed blessing of a large extended Midwestern family that is/was, in the prior generation, all white, all Christian, mostly Republican, and mostly never traveling further than upstate. Some are mean-spirited by nature, some are just limited by life experience and narrow educations, at least until after retirement. It would have been better for all involved, I think, if some of them had been, as young people especially, to India, or even "just" Istanbul. (It doesn't always help, especially if the travel is in connection with killing the locals. My uncle on the other side certainly didn't learn anything from his time in uniform in Vietnam. But it can.) Did you ever read Bridge to Terabithia? Some of those TikTok kids are Jesse.
posted by praemunire at 9:29 AM on June 5 [3 favorites]
FYI hyperbolic guillotine is available as a MF username.
posted by achrise at 9:37 AM on June 5 [6 favorites]
posted by achrise at 9:37 AM on June 5 [6 favorites]
I can understand why people would like me to avoid transoceanic flights to reduce my carbon footprint.
I can also understand why that registers as rich people shit. In our case, we primarily travel to Romania/Hungary to visit family, but we do go other places sometimes, too. So I get it. (In my earliest posts on this site, I was a dishwasher repairman who had to take out a loan so that he could get back to Romania for his father-in-law's funeral.)
The thing is, a bit of money does give you options to make good choices, too. We are better off these days, and we try to make good ones. We have replaced all of our lighting with high efficiency bulbs. (That alone saves roughly the carbon footprint of a flight to Europe every year.) We have Energy Star-rated appliances (actually that's a low bar, ours are super high efficiency). We have a smart thermostat to help reduce energy expended for heating and cooling. We further enhanced ours by installing smart vents so that we aren't heating or cooling rooms no one is using currently. Those are huge. We wash our clothes entirely in cold water. Energy-efficient vehicles.A bunch of other stuff, too. I would never dream of giving anyone shit if they can't do all of these things.
All told, these things and others reduce the carbon footprint of our family, before accounting for flights, to about half of what an average US family of the same size uses, based on the EPA's calculator. We lose half of that ground gained by flying overseas about once a year, but we still come out with a smaller footprint than average.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:58 AM on June 5 [14 favorites]
I can also understand why that registers as rich people shit. In our case, we primarily travel to Romania/Hungary to visit family, but we do go other places sometimes, too. So I get it. (In my earliest posts on this site, I was a dishwasher repairman who had to take out a loan so that he could get back to Romania for his father-in-law's funeral.)
The thing is, a bit of money does give you options to make good choices, too. We are better off these days, and we try to make good ones. We have replaced all of our lighting with high efficiency bulbs. (That alone saves roughly the carbon footprint of a flight to Europe every year.) We have Energy Star-rated appliances (actually that's a low bar, ours are super high efficiency). We have a smart thermostat to help reduce energy expended for heating and cooling. We further enhanced ours by installing smart vents so that we aren't heating or cooling rooms no one is using currently. Those are huge. We wash our clothes entirely in cold water. Energy-efficient vehicles.A bunch of other stuff, too. I would never dream of giving anyone shit if they can't do all of these things.
All told, these things and others reduce the carbon footprint of our family, before accounting for flights, to about half of what an average US family of the same size uses, based on the EPA's calculator. We lose half of that ground gained by flying overseas about once a year, but we still come out with a smaller footprint than average.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:58 AM on June 5 [14 favorites]
I want to travel and can afford to travel a bit. But, yes, flying is horrible for the Climate. I'm American; we are, individually, the highest carbon emitters and we seem to be getting worse. I do believe that engaged tourism is generally good. Seeing how other people in the world live, esp. for Americans, who are isolated by geography and limited news.
It all boils down to not being an asshole. I'm in Maine, some neighbors have airbnbs. You're on vacation, fireworks are fuuuun, but not for me all summer. Don't litter, do a little easy research and have a clue about how to respect the places you visit. National Parks in the US are more crowded than ever before - respect our precious wilderness, and also don't get gored by buffalo, of fall off an edge and need to be rescued, etc. Are there tourist sites where you live? Have you been there? Save some carbon and be a tourist at home, it's pretty nice.
posted by theora55 at 10:19 AM on June 5 [2 favorites]
It all boils down to not being an asshole. I'm in Maine, some neighbors have airbnbs. You're on vacation, fireworks are fuuuun, but not for me all summer. Don't litter, do a little easy research and have a clue about how to respect the places you visit. National Parks in the US are more crowded than ever before - respect our precious wilderness, and also don't get gored by buffalo, of fall off an edge and need to be rescued, etc. Are there tourist sites where you live? Have you been there? Save some carbon and be a tourist at home, it's pretty nice.
posted by theora55 at 10:19 AM on June 5 [2 favorites]
All our electricity is from hydro. We don't own a car. We don't have kids. We are vegetarian (almost vegan). We live in medium sized apartment with low rent close to downtown. All our appliances are energy efficient, as well as most of our lighting. We walk/bike almost everywhere but I take public transit to work, twice a week. I realized we're in the minority, but I feel like we can take 2 overseas trips a year with a clear conscience. Especially since most of our travel style is staying in one place for extended periods to get a real feel for the place.
posted by exolstice at 10:26 AM on June 5 [5 favorites]
posted by exolstice at 10:26 AM on June 5 [5 favorites]
As someone who has worked in tourism in natural places on and off for 30+ years I can tell you that this is not by any stretch novel behaviour limited to influencers.
Oh, I agree. I was singling them out as a subspecies which has been unusually rampant in recent years; apologies that wasn't clear.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:33 AM on June 5 [2 favorites]
Oh, I agree. I was singling them out as a subspecies which has been unusually rampant in recent years; apologies that wasn't clear.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:33 AM on June 5 [2 favorites]
What exactly does "negative population growth" mean, in practice
posted by Countess Elena at 10:36 AM on June 5 [9 favorites]
posted by Countess Elena at 10:36 AM on June 5 [9 favorites]
I'll be down with curtailing airtravel when they ban private jets. I'm sharing the carbon footprint with a couple hundred other people, unlike celebrities who jet to europe for a cappuccino and jet home the same day.
There was an article just the other day, maybe in WaPo about how all experiences are shittier because people can now basically buy themselves a cut in the line. When even the wealthy have to take public transportation, suddenly public transport being clean and efficient is a priority. Short term rentals are adjacent to this, as landowners/landlords don't have to follow the rules the way hotels do, adding to the housing spiral we're experiencing.
Good governments see this and step in, which is why they've banned cars in certain heavily impacted european cities. more of this and less shaming of people who travel for leisure.
posted by OHenryPacey at 10:57 AM on June 5 [10 favorites]
There was an article just the other day, maybe in WaPo about how all experiences are shittier because people can now basically buy themselves a cut in the line. When even the wealthy have to take public transportation, suddenly public transport being clean and efficient is a priority. Short term rentals are adjacent to this, as landowners/landlords don't have to follow the rules the way hotels do, adding to the housing spiral we're experiencing.
Good governments see this and step in, which is why they've banned cars in certain heavily impacted european cities. more of this and less shaming of people who travel for leisure.
posted by OHenryPacey at 10:57 AM on June 5 [10 favorites]
What exactly does "negative population growth" mean, in practice
If you have to ask...
You have to have known where this thread was going way up at the top. This has got to be a core example of how online discussion turns to crap, self extremifies, and reinforces itself. Can I get a like?!?
the problem is not the tourists, it's capitalism
And the massive disparities in wealth and opportunity that result.
What happens to disparities in wealth and opportunity if we cut the tourism, or capitalism, or both?
posted by 2N2222 at 11:07 AM on June 5 [1 favorite]
If you have to ask...
You have to have known where this thread was going way up at the top. This has got to be a core example of how online discussion turns to crap, self extremifies, and reinforces itself. Can I get a like?!?
the problem is not the tourists, it's capitalism
And the massive disparities in wealth and opportunity that result.
What happens to disparities in wealth and opportunity if we cut the tourism, or capitalism, or both?
posted by 2N2222 at 11:07 AM on June 5 [1 favorite]
Well it’s a lot easier to cut out the tourism than the capitalism. Prehistoric culture has a lot of record of merchantile trade but less of a package tour of Byzantium.
posted by The River Ivel at 11:58 AM on June 5 [2 favorites]
posted by The River Ivel at 11:58 AM on June 5 [2 favorites]
Prehistoric culture has a lot of record of merchantile trade but less of a package tour of Byzantium.
Yeah, but literally BC is how far you have to go back in time to get to before tourism was common. I mean, does it become ok if we set fire to some shops in the name of conquest or engage in some minor bit of business before sightseeing?
posted by The_Vegetables at 12:04 PM on June 5 [1 favorite]
Yeah, but literally BC is how far you have to go back in time to get to before tourism was common. I mean, does it become ok if we set fire to some shops in the name of conquest or engage in some minor bit of business before sightseeing?
posted by The_Vegetables at 12:04 PM on June 5 [1 favorite]
this is not by any stretch novel behaviour limited to influencers
This is true; and all you have to do is surf art history and various forms of literature to see/read it in action. So, yes, a behavior that's hundreds of years old.
...having said that, however, "influencers" and social media have taken it to an entirely new level -- it's not merely about seeing the Trevi Fountain or whatever, it's a matter of having taken a specific photo at a specific angle, doing one of a set of specific poses (these seem to vary culturally, but every group appears to have their repertoire that they all repeat).
I've walked past an army of tourists who were each waiting (given that there were like 150 of them, it was probably a long wait) to stand on top of a stump, and get someone to take their picture in front of a mountain. This was in Lauterbrunnen, so there were mountains everywhere and they still all had to have that ONE photo on top of a specific stump, each person doing one specific pose, one after the other.
Ten feet in either direction was the exact same photo angle (what with it being a photo of a mountain ten miles away, so parallax is a thing but it ain't THAT big a deal).
But no. Had to be that one stump, from that one particular angle, doing that one particular pose, and blithely fucking up traffic in order to do it. Very strange.
posted by aramaic at 12:07 PM on June 5 [6 favorites]
This is true; and all you have to do is surf art history and various forms of literature to see/read it in action. So, yes, a behavior that's hundreds of years old.
...having said that, however, "influencers" and social media have taken it to an entirely new level -- it's not merely about seeing the Trevi Fountain or whatever, it's a matter of having taken a specific photo at a specific angle, doing one of a set of specific poses (these seem to vary culturally, but every group appears to have their repertoire that they all repeat).
I've walked past an army of tourists who were each waiting (given that there were like 150 of them, it was probably a long wait) to stand on top of a stump, and get someone to take their picture in front of a mountain. This was in Lauterbrunnen, so there were mountains everywhere and they still all had to have that ONE photo on top of a specific stump, each person doing one specific pose, one after the other.
Ten feet in either direction was the exact same photo angle (what with it being a photo of a mountain ten miles away, so parallax is a thing but it ain't THAT big a deal).
But no. Had to be that one stump, from that one particular angle, doing that one particular pose, and blithely fucking up traffic in order to do it. Very strange.
posted by aramaic at 12:07 PM on June 5 [6 favorites]
What exactly does "negative population growth" mean, in practice
St Louis used to have 875,000 people, second to Chicago in the midwest/middle of the US. Now it's battling places like Lubbock TX and Chula Vista CA for for 280,000. I think it's still an ok place to live, but it's leaning into its decline. Gary Indiana too. Cleveland. Pittsburgh. Buffalo. Cincinnati, Atlantic City. It's not like they are hard to find.
posted by The_Vegetables at 12:10 PM on June 5 [2 favorites]
St Louis used to have 875,000 people, second to Chicago in the midwest/middle of the US. Now it's battling places like Lubbock TX and Chula Vista CA for for 280,000. I think it's still an ok place to live, but it's leaning into its decline. Gary Indiana too. Cleveland. Pittsburgh. Buffalo. Cincinnati, Atlantic City. It's not like they are hard to find.
posted by The_Vegetables at 12:10 PM on June 5 [2 favorites]
I get the feeling that the people in this thread who are dunking on Americans flying everywhere and wrecking everything are the same people who in other threads say "Americans are so insular, they don't care about anything outside their own country, look how many of them don't even have a passport because they'd rather just go to Disney World than travel someplace real."
To a related point: how will we be able to dunk on the rubes in Flyover Country if we can’t, you know, fly over them?
posted by non canadian guy at 12:12 PM on June 5 [1 favorite]
To a related point: how will we be able to dunk on the rubes in Flyover Country if we can’t, you know, fly over them?
posted by non canadian guy at 12:12 PM on June 5 [1 favorite]
Well it’s a lot easier to cut out the tourism than the capitalism.
So in this scenario, capitalism sort of steps out of the way and says, "My bad! I'll leave you all be" then?
posted by DirtyOldTown at 12:13 PM on June 5 [2 favorites]
So in this scenario, capitalism sort of steps out of the way and says, "My bad! I'll leave you all be" then?
posted by DirtyOldTown at 12:13 PM on June 5 [2 favorites]
I've walked past an army of tourists who were each waiting (given that there were like 150 of them, it was probably a long wait) to stand on top of a stump, and get someone to take their picture in front of a mountain.
Just east of the Arc de Triomphe, there are lines of people on the sidewalk waiting to jaywalk into the middle of the Champs-Élysées and pose for exactly the same photo with the Arc in the background. They stand every few meters so that they perfectly block the next-closest person, and either take a selfie or else take turns with a friend. You can put "Arc de Triomphe selfie" into Google Image Search and get plenty of results -- heck, there are pictures of it from stock photo agencies!
While the car traffic in that giant circle is still wicked dangerous, I do not remember this from the last time I was there, in 1992.
posted by wenestvedt at 12:20 PM on June 5 [3 favorites]
Just east of the Arc de Triomphe, there are lines of people on the sidewalk waiting to jaywalk into the middle of the Champs-Élysées and pose for exactly the same photo with the Arc in the background. They stand every few meters so that they perfectly block the next-closest person, and either take a selfie or else take turns with a friend. You can put "Arc de Triomphe selfie" into Google Image Search and get plenty of results -- heck, there are pictures of it from stock photo agencies!
While the car traffic in that giant circle is still wicked dangerous, I do not remember this from the last time I was there, in 1992.
posted by wenestvedt at 12:20 PM on June 5 [3 favorites]
St Louis used to have 875,000 people, second to Chicago in the midwest/middle of the US. Now it's battling places like Lubbock TX and Chula Vista CA for for 280,000. I think it's still an ok place to live, but it's leaning into its decline. Gary Indiana too. Cleveland. Pittsburgh. Buffalo. Cincinnati, Atlantic City. It's not like they are hard to find.
Cincinnati is growing, actually.
posted by cooker girl at 12:33 PM on June 5 [1 favorite]
Cincinnati is growing, actually.
posted by cooker girl at 12:33 PM on June 5 [1 favorite]
Cincinnati is growing, actually.
That's for the metro, and the city proper used to have 500,000 people.
posted by The_Vegetables at 12:50 PM on June 5 [1 favorite]
That's for the metro, and the city proper used to have 500,000 people.
posted by The_Vegetables at 12:50 PM on June 5 [1 favorite]
St Louis used to have 875,000 people, second to Chicago in the midwest/middle of the US.
That's just a little bit like saying "Global warming? Look at this snowball!"
I fear that "negative population growth" in practice means lots and lots of poor people left to die. What, do you think Elon and his 12-ish kids are gonna be on the negative slope of the population curve?
The only path to a sustainable worldwide population is through development. Economic, educational, social development. When economies are sufficiently stable, when there is at least a bare minimum of legal gender equality, and when young men and women are reasonably well educated, they choose to have fewer children.
Now to be sure, that growth needs to happen in specific places (the ones all the "Effective Altruists" are [sometimes] quietly not saying should be left to rot). But the rich economies of the global north are just softly, softly walking the same wealth-extractive path of past colonialism and aren't interested in bringing most of the global south to higher education, higher equality, and greater economic stability.
posted by tclark at 1:12 PM on June 5 [4 favorites]
That's just a little bit like saying "Global warming? Look at this snowball!"
I fear that "negative population growth" in practice means lots and lots of poor people left to die. What, do you think Elon and his 12-ish kids are gonna be on the negative slope of the population curve?
The only path to a sustainable worldwide population is through development. Economic, educational, social development. When economies are sufficiently stable, when there is at least a bare minimum of legal gender equality, and when young men and women are reasonably well educated, they choose to have fewer children.
Now to be sure, that growth needs to happen in specific places (the ones all the "Effective Altruists" are [sometimes] quietly not saying should be left to rot). But the rich economies of the global north are just softly, softly walking the same wealth-extractive path of past colonialism and aren't interested in bringing most of the global south to higher education, higher equality, and greater economic stability.
posted by tclark at 1:12 PM on June 5 [4 favorites]
I mean, anyone who can afford to fly internationally and vacation, to me personally, is rich. I cannot afford that nor can the majority of citizens of earth.
I think this really depends on where you are. A lot of European countries for example are really small. If you've traveled from one end of a US state to the other, for a lot of states, you could've crossed several national boundaries in Europe. A flight to a nearby city in another country outside of peak season can cost less than a McDonald's a lot of the time.
posted by Dysk at 1:52 PM on June 5 [2 favorites]
I think this really depends on where you are. A lot of European countries for example are really small. If you've traveled from one end of a US state to the other, for a lot of states, you could've crossed several national boundaries in Europe. A flight to a nearby city in another country outside of peak season can cost less than a McDonald's a lot of the time.
posted by Dysk at 1:52 PM on June 5 [2 favorites]
That's just a little bit like saying "Global warming? Look at this snowball!"
No it's not. I just didn't feel comfortable denigrating any major US cities (beyond comparing them to non-major cities in populous states). People live there you know, doing their best. You can read about the despair of a declining city population if you are interested from the actual residents. I'm just pointing out they exist.
posted by The_Vegetables at 2:15 PM on June 5 [2 favorites]
No it's not. I just didn't feel comfortable denigrating any major US cities (beyond comparing them to non-major cities in populous states). People live there you know, doing their best. You can read about the despair of a declining city population if you are interested from the actual residents. I'm just pointing out they exist.
posted by The_Vegetables at 2:15 PM on June 5 [2 favorites]
on sharing anecdotes of influencer-impacted travel:
on this last trip, my wife and I were in Florence, wandering through the Oltrarno, and we run into this queue that just seemed to pop up out of nowhere. No museums on this block. No restaurants. What are people lining up for? As we navigated around it, we saw this little window in the wall, and I suddenly remembered watching that Stanley Tucci travel show that made the rounds a couple of years ago, and he was in Florence and did this cute thing where he and a friend went to a window on the street where you could ring a bell and get a glass of wine.
That queue was for that window with that glass of wine. It was easily 25 people deep. And each person was not just waiting to get the glass, but also had a friend waiting on the other side of the street to take a photo of them as the glass was handed to them. The show came out two years ago.
I don't think this was in Stanley Tucci's plan, and I also know that it's something Anthony Bourdain wrestled with. If you believe that this wide and wonderful world of ours has so many cultures that should be shared and celebrated, how do you share that and talk about it without suddenly enabling a million travelers to go out and trample the thing?
posted by bl1nk at 4:03 PM on June 5 [12 favorites]
on this last trip, my wife and I were in Florence, wandering through the Oltrarno, and we run into this queue that just seemed to pop up out of nowhere. No museums on this block. No restaurants. What are people lining up for? As we navigated around it, we saw this little window in the wall, and I suddenly remembered watching that Stanley Tucci travel show that made the rounds a couple of years ago, and he was in Florence and did this cute thing where he and a friend went to a window on the street where you could ring a bell and get a glass of wine.
That queue was for that window with that glass of wine. It was easily 25 people deep. And each person was not just waiting to get the glass, but also had a friend waiting on the other side of the street to take a photo of them as the glass was handed to them. The show came out two years ago.
I don't think this was in Stanley Tucci's plan, and I also know that it's something Anthony Bourdain wrestled with. If you believe that this wide and wonderful world of ours has so many cultures that should be shared and celebrated, how do you share that and talk about it without suddenly enabling a million travelers to go out and trample the thing?
posted by bl1nk at 4:03 PM on June 5 [12 favorites]
Yeah, but literally BC is how far you have to go back in time to get to before tourism was common.
Yes and no. Religious pilgrimage was a kind of tourism, or an excuse for it, and where there were empires, there was travel. Dipshits from ancient Greece and Egypt left their graffiti on the top of the pyramids and the insides of tombs in the Valley of the Kings. Rich Romans had their seaside holidays. But it's true that you couldn't travel very far without a strong central authority, and maybe not even then. Sea travel was extraordinarily dangerous, plus there were pirates. On land, there were bandits, and there weren't always roads in any case.
posted by Countess Elena at 11:26 AM on June 6 [1 favorite]
Yes and no. Religious pilgrimage was a kind of tourism, or an excuse for it, and where there were empires, there was travel. Dipshits from ancient Greece and Egypt left their graffiti on the top of the pyramids and the insides of tombs in the Valley of the Kings. Rich Romans had their seaside holidays. But it's true that you couldn't travel very far without a strong central authority, and maybe not even then. Sea travel was extraordinarily dangerous, plus there were pirates. On land, there were bandits, and there weren't always roads in any case.
posted by Countess Elena at 11:26 AM on June 6 [1 favorite]
I looked up how much aviation (in general, not just for travel) contributes to climate change compared to everything else (2-3% depending on the source):
https://ourworldindata.org/ghg-emissions-by-sector
Air travel is not a huge part of global emmisions, but air passengers are also a small part of the global population. From The global scale, distribution and growth of aviation: Implications for climate change (2020):
Results suggest that the share of the world’s population travelling by air in 2018 was 11%, with at most 4% taking international flights. Data also supports that a minor share of air travelers is responsible for a large share of warming: The percentile of the most frequent fliers – at most 1% of the world population - likely accounts for more than half of the total emissions from passenger air travel.
If we wanted to get all Kantian and extend the right to travel the world to everybody, emmisions would no longer be relatively small.
posted by the_dreamwriter at 1:28 PM on June 6 [2 favorites]
https://ourworldindata.org/ghg-emissions-by-sector
Air travel is not a huge part of global emmisions, but air passengers are also a small part of the global population. From The global scale, distribution and growth of aviation: Implications for climate change (2020):
Results suggest that the share of the world’s population travelling by air in 2018 was 11%, with at most 4% taking international flights. Data also supports that a minor share of air travelers is responsible for a large share of warming: The percentile of the most frequent fliers – at most 1% of the world population - likely accounts for more than half of the total emissions from passenger air travel.
If we wanted to get all Kantian and extend the right to travel the world to everybody, emmisions would no longer be relatively small.
posted by the_dreamwriter at 1:28 PM on June 6 [2 favorites]
Dipshits from ancient Greece and Egypt left their graffiti on the top of the pyramids and the insides of tombs in the Valley of the Kings.
One of the items of tourism interest at the Temple of Poseidon in Sounion, Greece is the graffiti left by none other than Lord Byron himself.
posted by gimonca at 9:20 AM on June 8
One of the items of tourism interest at the Temple of Poseidon in Sounion, Greece is the graffiti left by none other than Lord Byron himself.
posted by gimonca at 9:20 AM on June 8
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Our economy is basically hooked on tourism. The local government is trying to crack down on AirBnBs due to there being a crisis-level shortage of homes for locals and many of the AirBnBs being unregulated, uninsured, and disruptive to their neighbours. The high street is dominated by one particular local chain of shops selling overpriced junk souvenirs, which have replaced all the department stores. Corporations that run public for-profit events like the Christmas Market colonize public spaces and enclose them, depriving locals of their use.
You'll note that I'm not complaining about the tourists themselves here. I'm sometimes a tourist too: the majority of tourists are well-behaved people here to see the sights and witness how other people live, which is a public good.
But when the exploitation of tourism results in your apartment's common entrance being pissed in by late-night partiers, the pubs and restaurants on your street staying open until well after midnight with noisy pavement parties every night for a month, and ordinary people can't afford to rent an apartment because the commercial landlords are buying them up and turning them into unregulated hostels for transients, something has gone wrong.
posted by cstross at 1:23 AM on June 5 [74 favorites]