Congestion Pricing comes to a screetching halt.
June 12, 2024 2:12 PM Subscribe
In a flip-flop for the ages, New York Governor Kathy Hochul suddenly decided to place NYC's massive congestion pricing program (that she championed) on "indefinite pause" less than a month prior to launch.
The program, set to go in effect later this month, would have charged drivers coming into Manhattan's central business district $15 during peak hours. Those funds were set to deliver $1 billion dollars a year, providing much needed infrastructure and accessibility updates to the city's century-old subway system.
Was this all a cynical election year ploy? Where will the money come from now? And is this even legal?
And haven't read these links, but, IIRC they had already spent millions on signage and cameras and such. Yikes.
posted by Windopaene at 2:28 PM on June 12 [9 favorites]
posted by Windopaene at 2:28 PM on June 12 [9 favorites]
Really they should stop tying funding to these projects. Just fund transit out of the budget! Cut the NYPD, they are already better funded than many small national armies.
posted by corb at 2:29 PM on June 12 [17 favorites]
posted by corb at 2:29 PM on June 12 [17 favorites]
Everyone I know is piiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiissed about this.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 2:33 PM on June 12 [38 favorites]
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 2:33 PM on June 12 [38 favorites]
Speaking of the NYPD, it appears that part of why the governor reversed course is because the the cop union pushed back on it (because most NYC cops don't live in the city.)
posted by NoxAeternum at 2:34 PM on June 12 [29 favorites]
posted by NoxAeternum at 2:34 PM on June 12 [29 favorites]
And haven't read these links, but, IIRC they had already spent millions on signage and cameras and such. Yikes.
Not just any millions, but nearly 500 million of them! They were essentially all set to "flip the switch" later this summer to enable the system, and now... just dormant surveillance systems which I'm sure will not be used in any way for you know, other reasons.
posted by jeremias at 2:40 PM on June 12 [17 favorites]
Not just any millions, but nearly 500 million of them! They were essentially all set to "flip the switch" later this summer to enable the system, and now... just dormant surveillance systems which I'm sure will not be used in any way for you know, other reasons.
posted by jeremias at 2:40 PM on June 12 [17 favorites]
Kathy Hochul don't be shitty challenge 2024 (impossible)
posted by coolname at 2:42 PM on June 12 [18 favorites]
posted by coolname at 2:42 PM on June 12 [18 favorites]
What an absolute clusterfuck. Hochul is a terrible, awful, no-good amoral clown of a governor, and Adams is just falling in line with her because of party politics. I really hope the MTA fights back and makes this happen, but the fact that this is an election year means the project is likely just doomed forever. RIP, MTA.
posted by grumpybear69 at 2:42 PM on June 12 [8 favorites]
posted by grumpybear69 at 2:42 PM on June 12 [8 favorites]
This whole thing is asinine. The program was decades in the works and put into place over the past four years after much study and a huge fight, infrastructure was in place, set to be up and running within weeks. And now, poof, it’s gone.
This isn’t just a billion dollar hole in the MTA capital plan budget. The legislation approving congestion pricing was specifically written with the idea that the $1 billion per year collected was to be used to generate bonds worth $15 billion.
And of course the constituents of Rep. Jeffries — who reportedly made the suggestion to Gov. Hochul to pull the plug — are as hurt by this as anyone, now that expanded accessibility, much needed repairs, and other system upgrades can’t be funded.
posted by theory at 2:48 PM on June 12 [24 favorites]
This isn’t just a billion dollar hole in the MTA capital plan budget. The legislation approving congestion pricing was specifically written with the idea that the $1 billion per year collected was to be used to generate bonds worth $15 billion.
And of course the constituents of Rep. Jeffries — who reportedly made the suggestion to Gov. Hochul to pull the plug — are as hurt by this as anyone, now that expanded accessibility, much needed repairs, and other system upgrades can’t be funded.
posted by theory at 2:48 PM on June 12 [24 favorites]
Just fund transit out of the budget
congestion pricing lets New York raise funds by charging New Jersey drivers; can't do that with taxes
posted by BungaDunga at 2:57 PM on June 12 [34 favorites]
congestion pricing lets New York raise funds by charging New Jersey drivers; can't do that with taxes
posted by BungaDunga at 2:57 PM on June 12 [34 favorites]
also congestion pricing specifically improves congestion in lower Manhattan, raiding the NYPD budget (as much as they deserve it) doesn't do that either
posted by BungaDunga at 2:59 PM on June 12 [16 favorites]
posted by BungaDunga at 2:59 PM on June 12 [16 favorites]
I've literally been waiting for congestion pricing since... 2007? When Bloomberg introduced the idea for NYC. At the time it had already been instituted in London so it's not like it's something that's never been done before. Since then we've had nothing but democratic mayors (excepting Bloomberg, who was for it), democratic governors, who should theoretically be in favor of policies that discourage driving and fund transit. I really thought I was going to see it happen.
FYI New Yorkers - when Brian Lehrer talks on his WNYC show (10 am-noon weekdays) about congestion pricing, he mentions that 90 percent of the people who call in are against it. This show is frequently listened to by politicians to get a sense of how the public is feeling. If you can spare the time in your day to listen/call, it's one way to make your voice heard.
posted by matcha action at 3:02 PM on June 12 [7 favorites]
FYI New Yorkers - when Brian Lehrer talks on his WNYC show (10 am-noon weekdays) about congestion pricing, he mentions that 90 percent of the people who call in are against it. This show is frequently listened to by politicians to get a sense of how the public is feeling. If you can spare the time in your day to listen/call, it's one way to make your voice heard.
posted by matcha action at 3:02 PM on June 12 [7 favorites]
40% of car commuters into Manhattan are cops
That’s not what that article says.
posted by yarrow at 3:20 PM on June 12 [16 favorites]
That’s not what that article says.
posted by yarrow at 3:20 PM on June 12 [16 favorites]
congestion pricing lets New York raise funds by charging New Jersey drivers; can't do that with taxes
Why have people who live in NJ but work in NY been filing NYS tax returns for all these years, then?
posted by May Kasahara at 3:22 PM on June 12 [7 favorites]
Why have people who live in NJ but work in NY been filing NYS tax returns for all these years, then?
posted by May Kasahara at 3:22 PM on June 12 [7 favorites]
Hochul is only the latest in a long line of NY pols who have been profiles in cowardice around congestion pricing.
However, I'm hopeful that this is only being paused, as Hakeem Jeffries seemed to imply, until after the election.
If delaying it until 2025 enables Dems to win back the House, then frankly I'm OK with it.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 3:24 PM on June 12 [4 favorites]
However, I'm hopeful that this is only being paused, as Hakeem Jeffries seemed to imply, until after the election.
If delaying it until 2025 enables Dems to win back the House, then frankly I'm OK with it.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 3:24 PM on June 12 [4 favorites]
That’s not what that article says.
This is what I get for copying a link headline without reading it fully, apologies. My edit window is closed so I can't fix it. It *does* indicate that cops are an outsized proportion of car commuters, but you're right that it isn't as clean as 40%.
posted by JDHarper at 3:32 PM on June 12 [9 favorites]
This is what I get for copying a link headline without reading it fully, apologies. My edit window is closed so I can't fix it. It *does* indicate that cops are an outsized proportion of car commuters, but you're right that it isn't as clean as 40%.
posted by JDHarper at 3:32 PM on June 12 [9 favorites]
Just fund transit out of the budget!
That means from other taxes. It's better to tax things you don't want, like traffic, than things you do want, like work. Next, do carbon emissions. (Yes, you can tax traffic without linking the income to transit spending, but it's more feasible politically.)
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 3:43 PM on June 12 [8 favorites]
That means from other taxes. It's better to tax things you don't want, like traffic, than things you do want, like work. Next, do carbon emissions. (Yes, you can tax traffic without linking the income to transit spending, but it's more feasible politically.)
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 3:43 PM on June 12 [8 favorites]
Hochul is a terrible, awful, no-good amoral clown of a governor, and Adams is just falling in line with her because of party politics.
Not a New Yorker, but I thought it was the other way around. Namely, that Adams, the ex-cop, was bothering Hochul, because he sees the NYPD as his true constituency and the police unions were the biggest opponents of congestion pricing.
Is there anybody following local New York media who can clarify who is influencing whom?
posted by jonp72 at 4:01 PM on June 12 [5 favorites]
Not a New Yorker, but I thought it was the other way around. Namely, that Adams, the ex-cop, was bothering Hochul, because he sees the NYPD as his true constituency and the police unions were the biggest opponents of congestion pricing.
Is there anybody following local New York media who can clarify who is influencing whom?
posted by jonp72 at 4:01 PM on June 12 [5 favorites]
Adams has always been thoroughly indifferent to congestion pricing; he’s never had anything positive to say about it, but he’s never outright done anything to prevent it from happening. The NYC DOT has been cooperating with the MTA to get the cameras and signs installed. And frankly, Adams is an extremely unpopular mayor, who has a good change of being indicted by the Feds before autumn arrives, and he does not have the juice in Albany to make anything happen.
posted by 1970s Antihero at 4:35 PM on June 12 [7 favorites]
posted by 1970s Antihero at 4:35 PM on June 12 [7 favorites]
>who is influencing whom?I don't think Adams had much to do with it. There were reports — Politico is one I can think of — that Rep. Jeffries directed Gov. Hochul to "delay" the program out of fear of angering suburban constituencies and hurting Democratic efforts to retake the House this year. Both his and Hochul's offices have denied this.
The Times [gift link] says that Hochul privately has had doubts about the plan for a long time. Well, not exactly privately — supposedly she was sharing these concerns with some Manhattan business owners but not the general public.
For what it's worth, a reporter talked to a diner owner Hochul claimed to have spoken to about congestion pricing (as if Jerseyites of all people are driving into Manhattan looking for a diner!) and he said the topic never came up.
posted by theory at 4:38 PM on June 12 [7 favorites]
And now, poof, it’s gone.
Well - maybe not. The 2019 law required raising money for the MTA, and in the 48 hours between Hochul's pause and their session ended, they declined to brainstorm new ways of raising this money - sort of forcing it to maybe possibly continue.
It's also entirely possible that this 'indefinite pause' is just until November, to not alienate (ugh) a handful of Long Island voters in House races - there was reporting that Hakeem Jeffries was the one urging Hochul to pause it for the sake of Ds.
I don't have a ton of faith that, like, it'll definitely happen with no fuss post election, but I think there are a lot of ways that Hochul's pause is untenable, and several paths toward enacting congestion pricing.
Which, fuck, the city desperately needs.
posted by entropone at 4:48 PM on June 12 [4 favorites]
Well - maybe not. The 2019 law required raising money for the MTA, and in the 48 hours between Hochul's pause and their session ended, they declined to brainstorm new ways of raising this money - sort of forcing it to maybe possibly continue.
It's also entirely possible that this 'indefinite pause' is just until November, to not alienate (ugh) a handful of Long Island voters in House races - there was reporting that Hakeem Jeffries was the one urging Hochul to pause it for the sake of Ds.
I don't have a ton of faith that, like, it'll definitely happen with no fuss post election, but I think there are a lot of ways that Hochul's pause is untenable, and several paths toward enacting congestion pricing.
Which, fuck, the city desperately needs.
posted by entropone at 4:48 PM on June 12 [4 favorites]
Hell gate - a local news site which is doing awesome work, nails the lede a few days ago.....
Profiles in Cowardice: Governor Hochul Executes Craven 11th-Hour Flip-Flop on Congestion Pricing
Governor Hochul's spine was last seen driving a Hummer on the New Jersey Turnpike.
posted by lalochezia at 5:05 PM on June 12 [8 favorites]
Profiles in Cowardice: Governor Hochul Executes Craven 11th-Hour Flip-Flop on Congestion Pricing
Governor Hochul's spine was last seen driving a Hummer on the New Jersey Turnpike.
posted by lalochezia at 5:05 PM on June 12 [8 favorites]
Who got to her? Someone has dirt on her.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 5:50 PM on June 12 [4 favorites]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 5:50 PM on June 12 [4 favorites]
Watch Gov. Hochul debate herself when it comes to implementing congestion pricing. I’m surprised that Hochul didn’t black out from how hard a 180° she pulled here.
Congestion pricing was first suggested in 2009. They had to write a 4,000+ page EIS with a incredibly detailed statistics to get this thing implemented. All it took for Hochul to kill it was some bad vibes and a couple of anecdotes.
posted by 1970s Antihero at 5:55 PM on June 12 [11 favorites]
Congestion pricing was first suggested in 2009. They had to write a 4,000+ page EIS with a incredibly detailed statistics to get this thing implemented. All it took for Hochul to kill it was some bad vibes and a couple of anecdotes.
posted by 1970s Antihero at 5:55 PM on June 12 [11 favorites]
The idea for NYC to implement some form of limiting cars in lower Manhattan (and tolling the East River bridges) goes all the back to Mayor Lindsay in the '70s.
posted by theory at 6:01 PM on June 12
posted by theory at 6:01 PM on June 12
40% of car commuters into Manhattan are cops
That’s not what that article says.
Hmmm, let me look into it. I'll just google "40%" and "cops", but before I look at the results I'm going to talk a long sip from my coffee...
posted by AlSweigart at 6:11 PM on June 12 [19 favorites]
That’s not what that article says.
Hmmm, let me look into it. I'll just google "40%" and "cops", but before I look at the results I'm going to talk a long sip from my coffee...
posted by AlSweigart at 6:11 PM on June 12 [19 favorites]
...and the police unions were the biggest opponents of congestion pricing.
Why in the ever-loving-FUCK would the police unions think they should have a half an ass hair's worth of say in the matter. I mean, I know you all know this and I know the answer and I know it's par for the course but holy shit is that some temerity!
I long for a world where every politician would relay this news with a, "Can you fuckin' believe these guys?" kind of tone and no matter the audience, everyone laughs. Go back to your hole and wait to be summoned police!
posted by VTX at 6:21 PM on June 12 [7 favorites]
Why in the ever-loving-FUCK would the police unions think they should have a half an ass hair's worth of say in the matter. I mean, I know you all know this and I know the answer and I know it's par for the course but holy shit is that some temerity!
posted by VTX at 6:21 PM on June 12 [7 favorites]
The fact of the matter is, Hochul has absolutely no authority to pause or stop or cancel congestion pricing. The law was duly passed by the NYS legislature and signed by a previous governor. She just spit in the face of democracy and is daring anyone to try and stop her.
A group is getting together to sue over this, and I hope they do.
posted by rhymedirective at 6:27 PM on June 12 [17 favorites]
A group is getting together to sue over this, and I hope they do.
posted by rhymedirective at 6:27 PM on June 12 [17 favorites]
Really they should stop tying funding to these projects. Just fund transit out of the budget! Cut the NYPD, they are already better funded than many small national armies.
That’s literally what’s been done for oh, the past 50 years or so, at least, and it just doesn’t work. The MTA is a perpetual political football, with the abysmal state of NYC transit a direct result.
posted by rhymedirective at 6:28 PM on June 12 [1 favorite]
That’s literally what’s been done for oh, the past 50 years or so, at least, and it just doesn’t work. The MTA is a perpetual political football, with the abysmal state of NYC transit a direct result.
posted by rhymedirective at 6:28 PM on June 12 [1 favorite]
Bond rating agencies like to see dedicated, reliable sources of funding, rather than the fickle, year-to-year whims of a legislative body.
posted by 1970s Antihero at 6:43 PM on June 12 [3 favorites]
posted by 1970s Antihero at 6:43 PM on June 12 [3 favorites]
The most detailed legal analysis I have seen of Hochul's move is this from NYU professor Rick Hills. He is quite skeptical that the law is on Hochul's side, but he also does the public service of explaining what the legal theory she is operating under even is -- that as governor she can withhold consent for a state-level signoff required for projects taking federal funding.
posted by grimmelm at 7:01 PM on June 12 [4 favorites]
posted by grimmelm at 7:01 PM on June 12 [4 favorites]
I know a few NYPD cops, they don't care that much about congestion pricing. Their licence plates are "accidentally" obscured, either with a cover or a wire brush. And none of them were worried about tickets for illegal plates.
posted by Marky at 7:03 PM on June 12 [10 favorites]
posted by Marky at 7:03 PM on June 12 [10 favorites]
Not to belabor the point about police, but the 2022 NYMTC Hub Bound Travel Data report, which is based on counts from various transit agencies for a specific day in the fall, has about 800,000 cars entering (and a similar number leaving) the Manhattan CBD a day; the 2019 report had it at 900,000. The MTA environmental impact report uses an estimate of 143,000 cars entering the CBD for work commutes based on ACS 2016 data (it’s from an older Census data product that stopped updating). So assuming those estimates are roughly commensurable, car commuters to work aren’t actually the majority of car entries. Meanwhile there are about 36,000 sworn NYPD officers so even if every single one of them drove from outside the CBD, they wouldn’t crack 40% of car commuters.
Anyway. This move by Hochul is so infuriating. She somehow managed to echo Chris Christie’s two worst moments - kiboshing the ARC Hudson tunnel project and creating traffic jams on purpose for petty political reasons - but with completely opaque motivation. At least when Christie was acting out destructively it was sort of clear where he was coming from.
posted by yarrow at 7:13 PM on June 12 [7 favorites]
Anyway. This move by Hochul is so infuriating. She somehow managed to echo Chris Christie’s two worst moments - kiboshing the ARC Hudson tunnel project and creating traffic jams on purpose for petty political reasons - but with completely opaque motivation. At least when Christie was acting out destructively it was sort of clear where he was coming from.
posted by yarrow at 7:13 PM on June 12 [7 favorites]
I know a few NYPD cops, they don't care that much about congestion pricing. Their licence plates are "accidentally" obscured (he unobscures them if he can), either with a cover or a wire brush. And none of them were worried about tickets for illegal plates.
This makes sense to me. I have a friend who is obsessed with license plate obscuring. While walking with him one evening he was pointing out obscured plates, and as we passed a police station there were quite a few. Things that make you go hmmm.
As for New Jersey commuters, before the pandemic almost everyone I worked with lived in New Jersey, and no one would even consider driving in. The main thing that keeps them from coming back to the office now is the sorry state of public transportation. Just last week one guy came in to the office for the first time in months. He was only coming in from Edison and it took him 3 hours.
I honestly don't know who would really have made this their big voting issue, I thought everyone was all up in arms about immigration.
posted by maggiemaggie at 7:23 PM on June 12 [2 favorites]
This makes sense to me. I have a friend who is obsessed with license plate obscuring. While walking with him one evening he was pointing out obscured plates, and as we passed a police station there were quite a few. Things that make you go hmmm.
As for New Jersey commuters, before the pandemic almost everyone I worked with lived in New Jersey, and no one would even consider driving in. The main thing that keeps them from coming back to the office now is the sorry state of public transportation. Just last week one guy came in to the office for the first time in months. He was only coming in from Edison and it took him 3 hours.
I honestly don't know who would really have made this their big voting issue, I thought everyone was all up in arms about immigration.
posted by maggiemaggie at 7:23 PM on June 12 [2 favorites]
What an absolutely dysfunctional form of government we have. I have been calling Hochul every day. When I have time, I wait for a staffer. When I don't, I leave increasingly unhinged voicemails. Please join me in keeping the pressure on.
And no, it won't affect the House -- nobody is going to change their vote over this, and anyway congestion pricing gets more popular after it's implemented, so in the long run it's a win.
posted by novalis_dt at 8:13 PM on June 12 [10 favorites]
And no, it won't affect the House -- nobody is going to change their vote over this, and anyway congestion pricing gets more popular after it's implemented, so in the long run it's a win.
posted by novalis_dt at 8:13 PM on June 12 [10 favorites]
40% of car commuters into Manhattan are cops
NYC has an astounding number of cops but they don't make up 40 percent of all Manhattan, just this one area, Census tract 29.
posted by etaoin at 8:48 PM on June 12
NYC has an astounding number of cops but they don't make up 40 percent of all Manhattan, just this one area, Census tract 29.
posted by etaoin at 8:48 PM on June 12
40% of car commuters into Manhattan are cops
NYC has an astounding number of cops but they don't make up 40 percent of all Manhattan, just this one area, Census tract 29.
The relevant quote in the article is "Of the estimated 16,453 workers commuting to jobs in Census Tract 29 from outside the Manhattan CBD, an estimated 6,832 workers (over 40 percent) drive to work. ... Roughly 40 percent of those working in Census Tract 29 are employed in protective service occupations, a category including NYPD officers. Over the entire Manhattan CBD, only 2.5 percent of jobs are in "
This is just one census tract, but it is a census tract close to the Manhattan central business district (abbreviated as CBD in the article). It was singled out in the analysis, because the tract was "home to a number of law enforcement and government buildings, including One Police Plaza, Manhattan Criminal Court, New York Supreme Court, New York County Supreme Court, the Thurgood Marshall United States Courthouse, One Centre Street and of course, City Hall." The percent of workers who commute into that census tract from outside the central business district is 41.5% (6,832/16,453 = 41.5%), which the article confusingly simplified as "over 40 percent."
Within that group of 6,832 non-Manhattanites who commute into work near the Manhattan central business district (or the census tract that most closely approximates it), an estimate of "roughly 40 percent" are in "protective service occupations." (Using two imprecise references to "40 percent" in a row doesn't exactly make this easier to comprehend. So I can see why there's confusion.)
Now, the category of "protective service occupations" includes cops, but it isn't limited to cops. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics definition of "protective service occupations", the category is broad enough to include things like fire fighters and security guards, but also includes other categories (such as animal control officers or fish & game wardens or lifeguards) that I'd suspect would be very rare in the Manhattan central business district.
So, as you can see, the estimate about cops commuting into Manhattan is going to be messy given the relative imprecision of the statistical data we're working with, but it's probably likely that most of the people in the "protective service occupations" category are in fact cops, even though we can't nail that down for certain.
I think it's good to contrast how 2.5% of jobs in the Manhattan central business district are cops vs. this 40% figure. But you are mixing apples and oranges here, because the 2.5% figure refers to the Manhattan central business district or CBD, but the 40% figure refers to Census Tract 29.
I suppose you could do a better, less confusing statistical analysis by comparing % of occupations by category in Manhattan vs. % of occupations as total share of car commuters, but that's not exactly what they did here.
posted by jonp72 at 9:25 PM on June 12 [4 favorites]
NYC has an astounding number of cops but they don't make up 40 percent of all Manhattan, just this one area, Census tract 29.
The relevant quote in the article is "Of the estimated 16,453 workers commuting to jobs in Census Tract 29 from outside the Manhattan CBD, an estimated 6,832 workers (over 40 percent) drive to work. ... Roughly 40 percent of those working in Census Tract 29 are employed in protective service occupations, a category including NYPD officers. Over the entire Manhattan CBD, only 2.5 percent of jobs are in "
This is just one census tract, but it is a census tract close to the Manhattan central business district (abbreviated as CBD in the article). It was singled out in the analysis, because the tract was "home to a number of law enforcement and government buildings, including One Police Plaza, Manhattan Criminal Court, New York Supreme Court, New York County Supreme Court, the Thurgood Marshall United States Courthouse, One Centre Street and of course, City Hall." The percent of workers who commute into that census tract from outside the central business district is 41.5% (6,832/16,453 = 41.5%), which the article confusingly simplified as "over 40 percent."
Within that group of 6,832 non-Manhattanites who commute into work near the Manhattan central business district (or the census tract that most closely approximates it), an estimate of "roughly 40 percent" are in "protective service occupations." (Using two imprecise references to "40 percent" in a row doesn't exactly make this easier to comprehend. So I can see why there's confusion.)
Now, the category of "protective service occupations" includes cops, but it isn't limited to cops. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics definition of "protective service occupations", the category is broad enough to include things like fire fighters and security guards, but also includes other categories (such as animal control officers or fish & game wardens or lifeguards) that I'd suspect would be very rare in the Manhattan central business district.
So, as you can see, the estimate about cops commuting into Manhattan is going to be messy given the relative imprecision of the statistical data we're working with, but it's probably likely that most of the people in the "protective service occupations" category are in fact cops, even though we can't nail that down for certain.
I think it's good to contrast how 2.5% of jobs in the Manhattan central business district are cops vs. this 40% figure. But you are mixing apples and oranges here, because the 2.5% figure refers to the Manhattan central business district or CBD, but the 40% figure refers to Census Tract 29.
I suppose you could do a better, less confusing statistical analysis by comparing % of occupations by category in Manhattan vs. % of occupations as total share of car commuters, but that's not exactly what they did here.
posted by jonp72 at 9:25 PM on June 12 [4 favorites]
It's time for another reminder that congestion pricing will not actually reduce congestion in Manhattan. That effect was maxed out by the Bloomberg administration removing most legal street parking and jacking up the sales tax on parking garages.
I do think it's a good thing that people are basically admitting that it's a big cash grab at this point. But, what most articles about this aren't mentioning is just how regressive of a tax this is. The people who have no choice but to drive into Manhattan are, more than you'd expect, those least able to pay the congestion toll.
I don't know what's going to happen, but I've never thought that "congestion pricing" was a good idea for NYC. There are plenty of other places where it would at least reduce traffic.
posted by Citrus at 10:15 PM on June 12 [1 favorite]
I do think it's a good thing that people are basically admitting that it's a big cash grab at this point. But, what most articles about this aren't mentioning is just how regressive of a tax this is. The people who have no choice but to drive into Manhattan are, more than you'd expect, those least able to pay the congestion toll.
I don't know what's going to happen, but I've never thought that "congestion pricing" was a good idea for NYC. There are plenty of other places where it would at least reduce traffic.
posted by Citrus at 10:15 PM on June 12 [1 favorite]
The people who have no choice but to drive into Manhattan are, more than you'd expect, those least able to pay the congestion toll.
Low-Income Discount Plan
Drivers enrolled in the Low-Income Discount Plan (LIDP) receive a 50% discount on the Congestion Relief Zone peak toll.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 11:21 PM on June 12 [8 favorites]
Low-Income Discount Plan
Drivers enrolled in the Low-Income Discount Plan (LIDP) receive a 50% discount on the Congestion Relief Zone peak toll.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 11:21 PM on June 12 [8 favorites]
congestion pricing will not actually reduce congestion in Manhattan.
Look, you can't have it both ways. If the charge is such a terrible burden then it follows that some people to change their plans, thus reducing the number of cars entering the zone. If it doesn't reduce the number of cars entering the zone then it follows that the price of charging entry is too low — because all those cars entering the zone produce absolutely huge quantities of negative externalities that New York should be compensated for.
Obviously the fact is that people change their plans in response to congestion zones. The MTA predicts that an "estimated 17% fewer vehicles will enter the CBD, and 9% fewer miles will be driven in the CBD" (page 16; from NYT link. Say that's overly optimistic and it's actually something like 10%. That's still quite worth it for the benefits to air quality and road safety.
That effect was maxed out by the Bloomberg administration removing most legal street parking and jacking up the sales tax on parking garages.
The synergistic effects are good and it's correct to keep turning every knob we have. Cars ruin cities. I know this is a bitter pill for wealthy suburbanites but driving a car into the city center is a shameful thing to do. Shame for the driver and shame for all the bureaucrats and politicians who paved over neighborhoods to make it a possible and easy choice.
posted by daveliepmann at 1:36 AM on June 13 [38 favorites]
Look, you can't have it both ways. If the charge is such a terrible burden then it follows that some people to change their plans, thus reducing the number of cars entering the zone. If it doesn't reduce the number of cars entering the zone then it follows that the price of charging entry is too low — because all those cars entering the zone produce absolutely huge quantities of negative externalities that New York should be compensated for.
Obviously the fact is that people change their plans in response to congestion zones. The MTA predicts that an "estimated 17% fewer vehicles will enter the CBD, and 9% fewer miles will be driven in the CBD" (page 16; from NYT link. Say that's overly optimistic and it's actually something like 10%. That's still quite worth it for the benefits to air quality and road safety.
That effect was maxed out by the Bloomberg administration removing most legal street parking and jacking up the sales tax on parking garages.
The synergistic effects are good and it's correct to keep turning every knob we have. Cars ruin cities. I know this is a bitter pill for wealthy suburbanites but driving a car into the city center is a shameful thing to do. Shame for the driver and shame for all the bureaucrats and politicians who paved over neighborhoods to make it a possible and easy choice.
posted by daveliepmann at 1:36 AM on June 13 [38 favorites]
I do think it's a good thing that people are basically admitting that it's a big cash grab at this point. But, what most articles about this aren't mentioning is just how regressive of a tax this is. The people who have no choice but to drive into Manhattan are, more than you'd expect, those least able to pay the congestion toll.Do you have any data supporting this? It was pretty extensively studied for years and the figures I saw had it at low single-digit percentages, which is what you’d expect given how expensive cars are and the cost of parking in Manhattan, and as others have noted there are credits available for truly low income drivers.
It’s also important to think about the cost of subsidizing car commuting: that has significant costs on communities in the form of air and noise pollution, injury and death, and poor land use – all of which have fallen disproportionately on poorer neighborhoods. The number of people who benefit from the places they live becoming healthier and better to live in rather than prioritized for people who don’t live or contribute there has to be factored in, too.
posted by adamsc at 1:47 AM on June 13 [21 favorites]
An example of a city politically freed from suburbanites crushing it underwheel:
- ~45% fewer trips by car since 1990 through continuous implementation of small individual policies
- ~40% reduction in air pollution over the last decade, again the cumulative effect of freeing individual streets from cars, making sure SUVs pay their fair share, and making it easy, convenient, pleasant and safe to get around without a car
posted by daveliepmann at 1:50 AM on June 13 [15 favorites]
- ~45% fewer trips by car since 1990 through continuous implementation of small individual policies
- ~40% reduction in air pollution over the last decade, again the cumulative effect of freeing individual streets from cars, making sure SUVs pay their fair share, and making it easy, convenient, pleasant and safe to get around without a car
posted by daveliepmann at 1:50 AM on June 13 [15 favorites]
congestion pricing will not actually reduce congestion in Manhattan.
According to the EIS, vehicle traffic will be reduced 15.4% - 19.9% in the Central Business District.
posted by 1970s Antihero at 2:01 AM on June 13 [10 favorites]
According to the EIS, vehicle traffic will be reduced 15.4% - 19.9% in the Central Business District.
posted by 1970s Antihero at 2:01 AM on June 13 [10 favorites]
Bloomberg administration removing most legal street parking
Is this true? Bloomberg removed more than 50% of the street parking spaces below 60th Street? It certainly doesn't look like it.
The people who have no choice but to drive into Manhattan
It's expensive to own a car in NYC. On the whole, households with cars have more than double the income of households without. From where I'm sitting, a whole lot of people who have the financial ability to own vehicles are exploiting the idea of people in need for the sake of their own convenience, which is a cash grab in its own right.
posted by evidenceofabsence at 2:48 AM on June 13 [21 favorites]
Is this true? Bloomberg removed more than 50% of the street parking spaces below 60th Street? It certainly doesn't look like it.
The people who have no choice but to drive into Manhattan
It's expensive to own a car in NYC. On the whole, households with cars have more than double the income of households without. From where I'm sitting, a whole lot of people who have the financial ability to own vehicles are exploiting the idea of people in need for the sake of their own convenience, which is a cash grab in its own right.
posted by evidenceofabsence at 2:48 AM on June 13 [21 favorites]
You know how to predict the actions of state and local politicians
A) you can not make drivers pay for the full cost of their driving
B) you can not levy taxes to provide public goods
C) every action must benefit the already well off and must not benefit the hated
D) Wasted money is the best way to help contractors and not help people
posted by No Climate - No Food, No Food - No Future. at 3:05 AM on June 13 [9 favorites]
A) you can not make drivers pay for the full cost of their driving
B) you can not levy taxes to provide public goods
C) every action must benefit the already well off and must not benefit the hated
D) Wasted money is the best way to help contractors and not help people
posted by No Climate - No Food, No Food - No Future. at 3:05 AM on June 13 [9 favorites]
The people who have no choice but to drive into Manhattan are, more than you'd expect, those least able to pay the congestion toll.
You say that but don't provide a source, and
the sources I've seen suggest you're wrong. Here's one from the Federeral Highway Administration [pdf link], for example , that looks at various congestion pricing schemes across multiple cities, and seemed to me pretty thoughtful:
Transek (2006) found that, in the case of the Stockholm city center congestion-pricing scheme, affluent men in the inner city pay the most in congestion-pricing charges. Because high-income individuals use their cars more frequently, it was found that high-income households were more likely to incur the congestion charge compared with the average household. This analysis indicates that, if the revenues are used for public transportation, those who gain the most from the pricing scheme are young people, low-income individuals, single people, women, and residents of the inner suburbs.
These groups pay relatively little in congestion charges on average and use public transportation more often than do other groups...
And in NYC specifically:
Those who commute by car to the CBD earn comparatively higher incomes: New York City DOT staff analyzed the income levels of city and suburban residents who use the automobile as their primary mode to reach Manhattan jobs. Staff found that of the 2.14 million workers in Manhattan, about 292,000, or 14 percent, drive to work each day. These workers have a median annual income of $60,941, compared with a median annual income of $46,416 for all workers in Manhattan, including the 1.85 million workers who take transit, walk, or bike to work. In aggregate, the fee would most impact commuters who earn 31 percent more than the median income of all Manhattan workers. Taking into account other income earners in the household, workers who drive to work in Manhattan have a median household income of $103,700. This compares with a median household income of $89,379 for all Manhattan workers.
A small proportion of low- and moderate-income commuters who drive would be disproportionately impacted by a fee or toll: Most low- and moderate-income commuters who travel into the CBD take transit or walk and would not be impact-
ed by a fee or toll. Of all New York City residents who commute to work, only 5 percent drive to the CBD. Of that 5 percent, most (80 percent) have a feasible transit alternative to get to work that would take no more than 15 minutes longer than their auto trip. Therefore, only 1 percent of Manhattan workers lack a viable alternative to paying a congestion fee or toll. The low- and moderate-income workers disproportionately impacted by a fee or a toll represent a further subgroup within this 1 percent. Legislation that was proposed for consideration by the State legislature would have provided tax credits to compensate low-income motorists for amounts that they would have to pay in excess of the round-trip transit fare.
posted by mediareport at 3:07 AM on June 13 [14 favorites]
You say that but don't provide a source, and
the sources I've seen suggest you're wrong. Here's one from the Federeral Highway Administration [pdf link], for example , that looks at various congestion pricing schemes across multiple cities, and seemed to me pretty thoughtful:
Transek (2006) found that, in the case of the Stockholm city center congestion-pricing scheme, affluent men in the inner city pay the most in congestion-pricing charges. Because high-income individuals use their cars more frequently, it was found that high-income households were more likely to incur the congestion charge compared with the average household. This analysis indicates that, if the revenues are used for public transportation, those who gain the most from the pricing scheme are young people, low-income individuals, single people, women, and residents of the inner suburbs.
These groups pay relatively little in congestion charges on average and use public transportation more often than do other groups...
And in NYC specifically:
Those who commute by car to the CBD earn comparatively higher incomes: New York City DOT staff analyzed the income levels of city and suburban residents who use the automobile as their primary mode to reach Manhattan jobs. Staff found that of the 2.14 million workers in Manhattan, about 292,000, or 14 percent, drive to work each day. These workers have a median annual income of $60,941, compared with a median annual income of $46,416 for all workers in Manhattan, including the 1.85 million workers who take transit, walk, or bike to work. In aggregate, the fee would most impact commuters who earn 31 percent more than the median income of all Manhattan workers. Taking into account other income earners in the household, workers who drive to work in Manhattan have a median household income of $103,700. This compares with a median household income of $89,379 for all Manhattan workers.
A small proportion of low- and moderate-income commuters who drive would be disproportionately impacted by a fee or toll: Most low- and moderate-income commuters who travel into the CBD take transit or walk and would not be impact-
ed by a fee or toll. Of all New York City residents who commute to work, only 5 percent drive to the CBD. Of that 5 percent, most (80 percent) have a feasible transit alternative to get to work that would take no more than 15 minutes longer than their auto trip. Therefore, only 1 percent of Manhattan workers lack a viable alternative to paying a congestion fee or toll. The low- and moderate-income workers disproportionately impacted by a fee or a toll represent a further subgroup within this 1 percent. Legislation that was proposed for consideration by the State legislature would have provided tax credits to compensate low-income motorists for amounts that they would have to pay in excess of the round-trip transit fare.
posted by mediareport at 3:07 AM on June 13 [14 favorites]
That study also notes the benefits lower-income residents have reaped when those cities use the congestion fee revenue to fund new transit improvements.
posted by mediareport at 3:13 AM on June 13 [9 favorites]
posted by mediareport at 3:13 AM on June 13 [9 favorites]
For every person who has no choice but to drive into Manhattan, there are probably one or two orders of magnitude more people who don’t own a car and have no choice than to take transit into Manhattan. Transit that just got defunded. Why are the people with cars more important?
posted by 1970s Antihero at 3:13 AM on June 13 [31 favorites]
posted by 1970s Antihero at 3:13 AM on June 13 [31 favorites]
The people who have no choice but to drive into Manhattan
Which people are those? The only people I can think of would be tradesfolks who need to bring their tools with them, but I'm certainly not straining my brain about it.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 4:04 AM on June 13 [1 favorite]
Which people are those? The only people I can think of would be tradesfolks who need to bring their tools with them, but I'm certainly not straining my brain about it.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 4:04 AM on June 13 [1 favorite]
Other benefits from the long running London congestion charging include reduced medical absences from school, linked to the substantive reductions in NO2 and particulate matter.
posted by biffa at 4:37 AM on June 13 [9 favorites]
posted by biffa at 4:37 AM on June 13 [9 favorites]
Which people are those? The only people I can think of would be tradesfolks who need to bring their tools with them, but I'm certainly not straining my brain about it.There are always a few people – you’ll hear about a nurse who works the graveyard shift with a poor transit link or someone who lives in a car-dependent suburb and doesn’t think it’s safe to transfer to a bus/train. People demanding that their car usage be subsidized will always find someone to use as the public face of their advocacy campaign. What they’ll never do, of course, is discuss the relative numbers on the other side: how many people would benefit from better transit because they can’t drive or would prefer not to devote that much of their income to it, how many people with disabilities need the accessibility improvements the MTA was going to use the taxes to pay for, or the cost in healthcare and life impact from people hit by drivers (estimated at as much as $1.4T annually for the United States).
posted by adamsc at 4:42 AM on June 13 [23 favorites]
As someone who is disabled and can no longer drive, and used to commute into Manhattan and then into Brooklyn from there, I would like to suggest an additional idea that may seem insanely radical to some:
Make the fucking NYPD Traffic Officers and Parking Enforcement Officers actually fucking do something.
I had to cross two streets to get to work. There were two huge issues that got ignored:
Not even getting into the transit police in the Port Authority Bus Terminal and Penn Station and random subway stations dressed like they were about to go house-to-house in Ramadi or Fallujah. Those guys need to give up being members of Steak Team Six.
The NYPD is a RICO suit waiting to happen, and I would not be surprised that those who commute in are annoyed enough to make a lot of noise and get more agitation statewide in the cop community.
posted by mephron at 6:24 AM on June 13 [9 favorites]
Make the fucking NYPD Traffic Officers and Parking Enforcement Officers actually fucking do something.
I had to cross two streets to get to work. There were two huge issues that got ignored:
- people ignoring red lights, including bicyclists (which is why my sympathy for them has gone down; seeing at least one of them run a red light and almost hit a pedestrian on the regular will do that, especially when you are that pedestrian). There was often an NYPD car there, and they just ignored all of it, cars and bikes zooming through the red as if it was just a hallucination.
- a car that regularly blocked the crosswalk. I actually went up to a nearby officer on foot to complain, he came to look, and told me the car belonged to a guy who worked in the Brooklyn DA's office, and they'd get the ticket thrown out. That's such a level of bullshit I cannot comprehend it. I got used to going into work, logging into my work machine, and going to the NYC website to report people parking in crosswalks and such, and putting in the details. If nothing else, I wanted a record of it.
Not even getting into the transit police in the Port Authority Bus Terminal and Penn Station and random subway stations dressed like they were about to go house-to-house in Ramadi or Fallujah. Those guys need to give up being members of Steak Team Six.
The NYPD is a RICO suit waiting to happen, and I would not be surprised that those who commute in are annoyed enough to make a lot of noise and get more agitation statewide in the cop community.
posted by mephron at 6:24 AM on June 13 [9 favorites]
a car that regularly blocked the crosswalk. I actually went up to a nearby officer on foot to complain, he came to look, and told me the car belonged to a guy who worked in the Brooklyn DA's office, and they'd get the ticket thrown out. That's such a level of bullshit I cannot comprehend it. I got used to going into work, logging into my work machine, and going to the NYC website to report people parking in crosswalks and such, and putting in the details. If nothing else, I wanted a record of it.
Hell, you will regularly find that NYC bike lanes and sidewalks are all blocked by the cop cars themselves. The DOJ has even threatened to sue them over it.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:02 AM on June 13 [11 favorites]
Hell, you will regularly find that NYC bike lanes and sidewalks are all blocked by the cop cars themselves. The DOJ has even threatened to sue them over it.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:02 AM on June 13 [11 favorites]
Congestion pricing had a lot of opponents that Hochul had to take seriously because they can vote and donate to politicians as much as lower Manhattan transit advocates can. George Latimer running 20 points ahead of Jamaal Bowman sends a message that even in places Republicans can't win, Democratic incumbents who get out of step with their districts can still be kicked out.
There were a lot of advocates for congestion pricing who didn't disguise their pleasure in the way that it was a wealth transfer from middle class and well-off people in the outer boroughs and suburbs. Why wouldn't those people push back?
A lot of civil servants other than cops drive into Manhattan. The teacher union opposed congestion pricing!
Congestion pricing wasn't going to reduce a lot of origination/destination trips to lower Manhattan (just immiserate the drivers with yet more costs), but it was going to shift huge amounts of traffic to or from New Jersey from or to Queens, Brooklyn or Long Island north or south increasing delays and emissions in upper Manhattan, northwest Queens, southeast Queens, southern Brooklyn and Staten Island.
posted by MattD at 7:11 AM on June 13 [2 favorites]
There were a lot of advocates for congestion pricing who didn't disguise their pleasure in the way that it was a wealth transfer from middle class and well-off people in the outer boroughs and suburbs. Why wouldn't those people push back?
A lot of civil servants other than cops drive into Manhattan. The teacher union opposed congestion pricing!
Congestion pricing wasn't going to reduce a lot of origination/destination trips to lower Manhattan (just immiserate the drivers with yet more costs), but it was going to shift huge amounts of traffic to or from New Jersey from or to Queens, Brooklyn or Long Island north or south increasing delays and emissions in upper Manhattan, northwest Queens, southeast Queens, southern Brooklyn and Staten Island.
posted by MattD at 7:11 AM on June 13 [2 favorites]
it was going to shift huge amounts of traffic to or from New Jersey from or to Queens, Brooklyn or Long Island north or south increasing delays and emissions in upper Manhattan, northwest Queens, southeast Queens, southern Brooklyn and Staten Island.
Citation, please. The data I've seen indicates that with fewer trips into Manhattan, traffic in the periphery would be reduced also.
posted by 1970s Antihero at 7:16 AM on June 13 [15 favorites]
Citation, please. The data I've seen indicates that with fewer trips into Manhattan, traffic in the periphery would be reduced also.
posted by 1970s Antihero at 7:16 AM on June 13 [15 favorites]
Any prediction that congestion charge would meaningfully lower D&O trips from/into lower Manhattan was bogus. No one makes that drive unless they have no reasonable alternative, or the hedonic and/or time value of money cost of not doing so is far more than the congestion charge.
By contrast, a lot of the people who currently go through lower Manhattan could and predictably would opt to go around lower Manhattan to save $15.
posted by MattD at 8:16 AM on June 13 [1 favorite]
By contrast, a lot of the people who currently go through lower Manhattan could and predictably would opt to go around lower Manhattan to save $15.
posted by MattD at 8:16 AM on June 13 [1 favorite]
Congestion pricing wasn't going to reduce a lot of origination/destination trips to lower Manhattan (just immiserate the drivers with yet more costs), but it was going to shift huge amounts of traffic to or from New Jersey from or to Queens, Brooklyn or Long Island north or south increasing delays and emissions in upper Manhattan, northwest Queens, southeast Queens, southern Brooklyn and Staten Island.
We spent all the money on the cameras, why not turn them on and see what happens? If it's unsupportable everyone will get mad and we can turn them off again, since apparently all it takes is one call from the governor.
posted by BungaDunga at 8:27 AM on June 13 [7 favorites]
We spent all the money on the cameras, why not turn them on and see what happens? If it's unsupportable everyone will get mad and we can turn them off again, since apparently all it takes is one call from the governor.
posted by BungaDunga at 8:27 AM on June 13 [7 favorites]
Yet again, according to the EIS, the MTA's research indicates:
posted by 1970s Antihero at 8:36 AM on June 13 [22 favorites]
- -9% to -7% reduction in vehicle-miles traveled in the Manhattan CBD
- -1 to 0% reduction in VMT in Manhattan outside of the CBD
- -1% to 0% reduction in VMT north of Manhattan
- Less than (+) 0.2% change in VMT on Long Island
- Less than (+) 0.2% change in VMT in New Jersey
- -0.2% to 0% change in VMT in Connecticut
posted by 1970s Antihero at 8:36 AM on June 13 [22 favorites]
Which people are those? The only people I can think of would be tradesfolks who need to bring their tools with them, but I'm certainly not straining my brain about it.
I’m currently working as a public defender, and I would absolutely not bring any of my files through any checkpoint operated by a cop. Experience has shown me that even though they aren’t allowed to look through my files, they will fucking do so anyway. When I bring my laptop home, I generally drive. I’m not working in NYC at the moment, but I think it’s plausible that NYC PDs feel similarly, especially because the NYPD thinks it’s a law unto itself.
That said, since they’re using license plate scanners, I think it’d be trivially easy to tie congestion pricing to a percentage of the registration cost of the car, thus making sure that people with less income driving older cars suffer less than rich people driving new cars. I don’t think that’s how they did it, but I think they definitely could have.
Personally my own concerns would be a little more the surveillance aspect of it; NYC is already oversurveilled and they haven’t promised not to use the material as plain view to my knowledge.
posted by corb at 8:50 AM on June 13 [3 favorites]
I’m currently working as a public defender, and I would absolutely not bring any of my files through any checkpoint operated by a cop. Experience has shown me that even though they aren’t allowed to look through my files, they will fucking do so anyway. When I bring my laptop home, I generally drive. I’m not working in NYC at the moment, but I think it’s plausible that NYC PDs feel similarly, especially because the NYPD thinks it’s a law unto itself.
That said, since they’re using license plate scanners, I think it’d be trivially easy to tie congestion pricing to a percentage of the registration cost of the car, thus making sure that people with less income driving older cars suffer less than rich people driving new cars. I don’t think that’s how they did it, but I think they definitely could have.
Personally my own concerns would be a little more the surveillance aspect of it; NYC is already oversurveilled and they haven’t promised not to use the material as plain view to my knowledge.
posted by corb at 8:50 AM on June 13 [3 favorites]
I think it’d be trivially easy to tie congestion pricing to a percentage of the registration cost of the car, thus making sure that people with less income driving older cars suffer less than rich people driving new cars.
in which case we'd be incentivizing everyone to drive old cars which pollute the air more
this is a bad idea
posted by daveliepmann at 8:52 AM on June 13 [4 favorites]
in which case we'd be incentivizing everyone to drive old cars which pollute the air more
this is a bad idea
posted by daveliepmann at 8:52 AM on June 13 [4 favorites]
Improving NJ Transit (and lowering the really high cost of NJ Transit) would also help with congestion in NYC. But we are going to widen the road that squeezes into the Holland Tunnel into NYC instead.
posted by armacy at 8:54 AM on June 13 [3 favorites]
posted by armacy at 8:54 AM on June 13 [3 favorites]
I’m currently working as a public defender, blah blah blah
This is a paragon of the bajillion snowflake reasons everyone has to drive into lower Manhattan, all of which boil down to "well you see I really really want to". Of course it's more convenient to bring your own personal living room into the most densely populated place in the United States! The problem is that so does everyone else, and it costs all the people who live and work there their health, time, and money. It immiserates the city for all these special snowflakes to drive into lower Manhattan. The stupefyingly obvious solution is to charge money for the privilege, because there are plenty of viable alternatives and if it's so important to you then you can pay for it.
posted by daveliepmann at 9:03 AM on June 13 [10 favorites]
This is a paragon of the bajillion snowflake reasons everyone has to drive into lower Manhattan, all of which boil down to "well you see I really really want to". Of course it's more convenient to bring your own personal living room into the most densely populated place in the United States! The problem is that so does everyone else, and it costs all the people who live and work there their health, time, and money. It immiserates the city for all these special snowflakes to drive into lower Manhattan. The stupefyingly obvious solution is to charge money for the privilege, because there are plenty of viable alternatives and if it's so important to you then you can pay for it.
posted by daveliepmann at 9:03 AM on June 13 [10 favorites]
mephron, the NYPD will never enforce laws against the NYPD. That's why we need INT-0080-2024, which would move parking enforcement to the DOT. Also, it would create a program allowing you to report this illegal parking and get a piece of the ticket. Call your city council member today.
posted by novalis_dt at 9:55 AM on June 13 [12 favorites]
posted by novalis_dt at 9:55 AM on June 13 [12 favorites]
This is a paragon of the bajillion snowflake reasons everyone has to drive into lower Manhattan, all of which boil down to "well you see I really really want to".
Dude, I agree with you in principle on this, but a PUBLIC DEFENDER is probably not the best exhibit A for the cause, y'know?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:13 AM on June 13 [10 favorites]
Dude, I agree with you in principle on this, but a PUBLIC DEFENDER is probably not the best exhibit A for the cause, y'know?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:13 AM on June 13 [10 favorites]
Scathing direct action from New Yorkers: guerilla sign taped atop the Metro entrance sign, with "Congestion Cathy's Inaccessible Station #343" written in Metro typography and the official handicap-accessible icon (crossed out).
posted by daveliepmann at 10:30 AM on June 13 [2 favorites]
posted by daveliepmann at 10:30 AM on June 13 [2 favorites]
This development absolutely floored me. Even if you didn't support the CBD tolling program, you have to see that this was absolutely not the way to put an end to it. The way the MTA's funding is structured means that Hochul has basically blown up mass transit in New York City and its New York suburbs, potentially fatally. This was all avoidable! And instead of some hardship on a few hundred poor people who have to commute by car into the CBD we are going to see increasing hardship on tens of thousands of daily mass transit commuters above and beyond issues that already exist.
Hochul just looks entirely incompetent here. I hope there's some way to salvage this.
posted by Captaintripps at 10:30 AM on June 13 [7 favorites]
Hochul just looks entirely incompetent here. I hope there's some way to salvage this.
posted by Captaintripps at 10:30 AM on June 13 [7 favorites]
There already exists a number of congestion pricing exemptions. If there is a legitimate need for public defenders to drive their personal vehicle into the congestion zone, then the solution is to amend the law to add them to the exemption list, not to scuttle the entire program.
posted by rhymedirective at 10:31 AM on June 13 [4 favorites]
posted by rhymedirective at 10:31 AM on June 13 [4 favorites]
New transcript from Hochul this morning throwing in a potential mask ban similar to North Carolina's recent legislation onto the table as well:
Laura Coates, CNN: There is also a call some have talked about, some Jewish leaders actually in New York are calling tonight for a mask ban. Saying that covering faces allows protesters to have some level of anonymity to be more aggressive, to me more entitled to say what they want because they don’t fear repercussion in the same way. Would you support that endeavor?posted by foxfirefey at 10:33 AM on June 13 [1 favorite]
Governor Hochul: There was a ban on masks before the pandemic that you couldn't have face coverings that didn't serve a purpose. For example, a surgical mask for someone who is elderly or ill — the pandemic removed that from our State Law. It was repealed at the time, but I absolutely will go back and take a look at this and see whether it can be restored because it is frightening to people.
You're sitting on a subway train and someone puts on a mask like this and comes in — you don't know if they're going to be committing a crime, they're going to have a gun, or whether they're just going to be threatening or intimidating you because you are Jewish, which is exactly what happened the other day. Absolutely unacceptable in the State of New York.
To be very clear, I wasn’t suggesting the program should be scrapped because of needs, I was just responding to an earlier poster about why some folks might feel the need to drive even if public transportation were improved. Thanks for posting the exemptions though, that’s wonderful to hear and I think will probably address some other posters’ concerns as well.
posted by corb at 10:40 AM on June 13 [1 favorite]
posted by corb at 10:40 AM on June 13 [1 favorite]
The people who have no choice but to drive into Manhattan
Which people are those? The only people I can think of would be tradesfolks who need to bring their tools with them, but I'm certainly not straining my brain about it.
There are MetroNorth stations here in Connecticut with train station parking waiting lists of YEARS.
posted by archimago at 10:51 AM on June 13
Which people are those? The only people I can think of would be tradesfolks who need to bring their tools with them, but I'm certainly not straining my brain about it.
There are MetroNorth stations here in Connecticut with train station parking waiting lists of YEARS.
posted by archimago at 10:51 AM on June 13
Not even getting into the transit police in the Port Authority Bus Terminal and Penn Station and random subway stations dressed like they were about to go house-to-house in Ramadi or Fallujah.
Fun fact: for years, those dudes were almost all drawing two paychecks when standing around in full battle rattle in transit stations. One as an NYPD officer and one as a National Guardsman on Federal Title 10 "deployed" orders as part of "counterterrorism" / GWOT. I'm not sure if the double-dipping on pay has gone away with the end of various 9/11 funding instruments and authorizations, but I'm pretty sure they can still double-dip on their days-until-retirement. It's a really cush assignment and everyone in the NYC law enforcement orbit knows it.
If you're NYPD you'd be pretty dumb to not also join a NG unit, because there's a lot of "you scratch my back" stuff that goes on, with the same people essentially being dual-hatted or going back and forth between Title 10 / Title 32 / civilian LEO in various ways.
The Machine is alive and well in NYC.
posted by Kadin2048 at 11:32 AM on June 13 [5 favorites]
Fun fact: for years, those dudes were almost all drawing two paychecks when standing around in full battle rattle in transit stations. One as an NYPD officer and one as a National Guardsman on Federal Title 10 "deployed" orders as part of "counterterrorism" / GWOT. I'm not sure if the double-dipping on pay has gone away with the end of various 9/11 funding instruments and authorizations, but I'm pretty sure they can still double-dip on their days-until-retirement. It's a really cush assignment and everyone in the NYC law enforcement orbit knows it.
If you're NYPD you'd be pretty dumb to not also join a NG unit, because there's a lot of "you scratch my back" stuff that goes on, with the same people essentially being dual-hatted or going back and forth between Title 10 / Title 32 / civilian LEO in various ways.
The Machine is alive and well in NYC.
posted by Kadin2048 at 11:32 AM on June 13 [5 favorites]
The teacher union opposed congestion pricing!
UFT President Michael Mulgrew, who lives in Staten Island, tried to throw a wrench in the congestion pricing works without, as far as I know, any sort of consultation with union members. A lot of teachers are pissed off about it.
The people who have no choice but to drive into Manhattan
The most legitimate example is folks with mobility issues, since NYC's accessibility is absolute trash. The counterpoint is that congestion pricing was slated to finally fund accessibility improvements across public transit.
a wealth transfer from middle class and well-off people in the outer boroughs and suburbs
You mean the people whose lifestyle we're subsidizing with government funds and asthmatic children? Where you see a wealth transfer, I see people finally being asked to pay their fair share.
posted by evidenceofabsence at 11:56 AM on June 13 [11 favorites]
UFT President Michael Mulgrew, who lives in Staten Island, tried to throw a wrench in the congestion pricing works without, as far as I know, any sort of consultation with union members. A lot of teachers are pissed off about it.
The people who have no choice but to drive into Manhattan
The most legitimate example is folks with mobility issues, since NYC's accessibility is absolute trash. The counterpoint is that congestion pricing was slated to finally fund accessibility improvements across public transit.
a wealth transfer from middle class and well-off people in the outer boroughs and suburbs
You mean the people whose lifestyle we're subsidizing with government funds and asthmatic children? Where you see a wealth transfer, I see people finally being asked to pay their fair share.
posted by evidenceofabsence at 11:56 AM on June 13 [11 favorites]
There are MetroNorth stations here in Connecticut with train station parking waiting lists of YEARS.
Sounds like residents of those towns should be arguing for parking garages near their stations, then? Or additional transit to allow them to get to the station without a car?
To be clear, while I do not live in Connecticut, I do commute to NYC three days a week by bus through the tunnel. (If congestion pricing resulted in half of the driver-only cars not making that trip in peak hours, we’d be reducing traffic by at least 25%.) And I’m advocating with my local government to improve transit so that people can get to the bus station without cars.
Cars are good, but using a car for a daily commute sucks! You deserve better! You deserve to read or watch something instead of listening to an audiobook! Fight for it!
posted by thecaddy at 2:59 PM on June 13 [9 favorites]
Sounds like residents of those towns should be arguing for parking garages near their stations, then? Or additional transit to allow them to get to the station without a car?
To be clear, while I do not live in Connecticut, I do commute to NYC three days a week by bus through the tunnel. (If congestion pricing resulted in half of the driver-only cars not making that trip in peak hours, we’d be reducing traffic by at least 25%.) And I’m advocating with my local government to improve transit so that people can get to the bus station without cars.
Cars are good, but using a car for a daily commute sucks! You deserve better! You deserve to read or watch something instead of listening to an audiobook! Fight for it!
posted by thecaddy at 2:59 PM on June 13 [9 favorites]
nobody is going to change their vote over this
Try to keep in mind that in modern US politics, no one really expects anyone to change their vote. The actual goal is (or at least should be) to get the folks that are already going to vote for you, to actually get up off their asses and go vote.
It's evidence that our system is broken but that's how it is for now.
posted by VTX at 5:04 PM on June 13 [1 favorite]
Try to keep in mind that in modern US politics, no one really expects anyone to change their vote. The actual goal is (or at least should be) to get the folks that are already going to vote for you, to actually get up off their asses and go vote.
It's evidence that our system is broken but that's how it is for now.
posted by VTX at 5:04 PM on June 13 [1 favorite]
a wealth transfer from middle class and well-off people in the outer boroughs and suburbs
Oh sweet summer child, you are horribly mistaken about which direction in which subsidization between cities and suburbs flows.
posted by NoxAeternum at 5:13 PM on June 13 [9 favorites]
Oh sweet summer child, you are horribly mistaken about which direction in which subsidization between cities and suburbs flows.
posted by NoxAeternum at 5:13 PM on June 13 [9 favorites]
Try to keep in mind that in modern US politics, no one really expects anyone to change their vote. The actual goal is (or at least should be) to get the folks that are already going to vote for you, to actually get up off their asses and go vote.
And that is absolutely not going to happen due to Hochul's massive betrayal here.
posted by Gadarene at 9:14 PM on June 13 [1 favorite]
And that is absolutely not going to happen due to Hochul's massive betrayal here.
posted by Gadarene at 9:14 PM on June 13 [1 favorite]
Manhattan gridlock worse than ever with congestion pricing paused – a look at the numbers
Traffic planner and former transportation commissioner Sam Schwartz says he’s never seen it this bad, going back to 1915.
“Congestion now is worse than it's been in history,” Schwartz told Gothamist. “Probably people in the 1800s were going faster than we are today.”
posted by 1970s Antihero at 9:39 AM on June 14 [3 favorites]
Traffic planner and former transportation commissioner Sam Schwartz says he’s never seen it this bad, going back to 1915.
“Congestion now is worse than it's been in history,” Schwartz told Gothamist. “Probably people in the 1800s were going faster than we are today.”
posted by 1970s Antihero at 9:39 AM on June 14 [3 favorites]
The half-billion-dollar network of EZ-Pass and license plate readers is up and running, despite there being no tolls to assess.
posted by daveliepmann at 1:50 AM on June 18
posted by daveliepmann at 1:50 AM on June 18
Siena poll: [NYS] Voters like Hochul’s congestion pricing pause but dislike Hochul. Car culture runs deep :/
posted by daveliepmann at 6:47 AM on June 20
posted by daveliepmann at 6:47 AM on June 20
Hochul floats some unknown number less than $15 in a softball interview [video]. Interviewer suggests raising money by cracking down on fare dodgers. While I don't mind a modicum of enforcement, it's daydreaming to think that will net anywhere close to $700M. Hochul continues trying to say she supports the MTA, despite the gaping budget hole that has stopped 2nd Ave subway work and will apparently hamstring the agency for years.
posted by daveliepmann at 9:55 AM on June 23
posted by daveliepmann at 9:55 AM on June 23
surely this crackdown on fare dodgers will work
posted by BungaDunga at 10:51 AM on June 23 [1 favorite]
posted by BungaDunga at 10:51 AM on June 23 [1 favorite]
Apparently the MTA board will vote to...acknowledge? accede to? Hochul's pause. So nothing close to solved but the backroom deals are flying. God NYS politics are so broken
posted by daveliepmann at 12:30 AM on June 26
posted by daveliepmann at 12:30 AM on June 26
Tweet thread detailing some of the deferred (canceled?) work. It's pretty bad — losing $2B in federal funds because the $3B on MTA's side is gone; deferring a slew of signaling improvements (needed for safety, reliability, & frequent service); no new electric buses; $2B of accessibility improvements gone...oof.
The accessibility funds alone put the lie to all the "we're pausing this to protect the people who don't have a choice" bullshit.
posted by daveliepmann at 9:24 AM on June 26 [4 favorites]
The accessibility funds alone put the lie to all the "we're pausing this to protect the people who don't have a choice" bullshit.
posted by daveliepmann at 9:24 AM on June 26 [4 favorites]
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posted by nofundy at 2:25 PM on June 12 [6 favorites]