Christian nationalists in the court system
June 15, 2024 9:07 AM Subscribe
Justice Alito Caught on Tape Discussing How Battle for America 'Can't Be Compromised' [ungated] - "In a new, secret recording, the Supreme Court justice says he 'agrees' that the U.S. should return to a place of godliness."
Supreme Court's Alito appears to back US return to 'godliness' in secret recording - "The 'Appeal to Heaven' flag has come to symbolize hopes by some conservative activists for a more Christian-centered U.S. government."
Secret recording puts spotlight on Alito's strong conservative views on religious issues - "The justice has consistently backed religious Christian groups in Supreme Court cases and has often spoke about freedom of religion being under attack."
Alito's 'Godliness' Comment Echoes a Broader Christian Movement - "Justice Samuel Alito's secretly recorded remarks come as many conservatives have openly embraced the view that American democracy must be grounded in a Christian worldview."
In Secret Recordings, Alito Endorses Nation of 'Godliness.' Roberts Talks of Pluralism. - "The two justices were surreptitiously recorded at a Supreme Court gala last week by a woman posing as a Catholic conservative."
The recording, which was provided exclusively to Rolling Stone, captures Windsor approaching Alito at the event and reminding him that they spoke at the same function the year before, when she asked him a question about political polarization. In the intervening year, she tells the justice, her views on the matter had changed. “I don’t know that we can negotiate with the left in the way that needs to happen for the polarization to end,” Windsor says. “I think that it’s a matter of, like, winning.”Justice Alito questions possibility of political compromise in secret recording - "Martha-Ann Alito spoke to Windsor about her flags on another recording made at the dinner, according to an additional edited recording the filmmaker posted online. She said she wanted to fly a religious flag because 'I have to look across the lagoon at the Pride flag for the next month', an apparent reference to celebratory LGBTQ+ displays during Pride month in June."
“I think you’re probably right,” Alito replies. “On one side or the other — one side or the other is going to win. I don’t know. I mean, there can be a way of working — a way of living together peacefully, but it’s difficult, you know, because there are differences on fundamental things that really can’t be compromised. They really can’t be compromised. So it’s not like you are going to split the difference.”
Windsor goes on to tell Alito: “People in this country who believe in God have got to keep fighting for that — to return our country to a place of godliness.”
“I agree with you. I agree with you,” replies Alito, who authored the Supreme Court’s 2022 Dobbs decision, which reversed five decades of settled law and ended a constitutional right to abortion.
Supreme Court's Alito appears to back US return to 'godliness' in secret recording - "The 'Appeal to Heaven' flag has come to symbolize hopes by some conservative activists for a more Christian-centered U.S. government."
Secret recording puts spotlight on Alito's strong conservative views on religious issues - "The justice has consistently backed religious Christian groups in Supreme Court cases and has often spoke about freedom of religion being under attack."
Alito's 'Godliness' Comment Echoes a Broader Christian Movement - "Justice Samuel Alito's secretly recorded remarks come as many conservatives have openly embraced the view that American democracy must be grounded in a Christian worldview."
The unguarded moment added to calls for greater scrutiny by Democrats, many of whom are eager to open official investigations into outside influence at the Supreme Court.Justice Alito, in secretly recorded audio, apparently agrees nation needs to return to place of 'godliness' - "In the edited clips that were posted to X, Windsor approached Martha-Ann Alito at the event and seemingly expressed sympathy for 'everything that you're going through' and that it 'was not okay.' 'It's okay because if they come back to me, I'll get them,' Martha-Ann Alito said, referring to the news media. 'I'm gonna be liberated, and I'm gonna get them.' ... Windsor then turned the conversation to the stir caused by the 'Appeal to Heaven' flag, to which Martha-Ann Alito said the 'feminazis believe that [Justice Alito] should control me. So, they'll go to hell, he never controls me,' she added."
But the core of the idea expressed to Mr. Alito, that the country must fight the decline of Christianity in public life, goes beyond the questions of bias and influence at the nation’s highest court. An array of conservatives, including antiabortion activists, church leaders and conservative state legislators, has openly embraced the idea that American democracy needs to be grounded in Christian values and guarded against the rise of secular culture.
They are right-wing Catholics and evangelicals who oppose abortion, same-sex marriage, transgender rights and what they see as the dominance of liberal views in school curriculums. And they’ve become a crucial segment of former President Donald J. Trump’s political coalition, intermingled with the MAGA movement that boosted him to the White House and that hopes to do so once again in November.
The movement’s rise has been evident across the country since Mr. Trump lost re-election in 2020. The National Association of Christian Lawmakers formed to advance Christian values and legislation among elected officials. This week in Indianapolis, delegates to the Southern Baptist Convention, the largest Protestant denomination in America, are voting on issues like restricting in vitro fertilization and further limiting women from pastoral positions. [US Southern Baptists effort to enshrine ban on women pastors falls short (earlier: Southern Baptists finalize expulsion of two churches with female pastors), US Southern Baptists condemn IVF procedure]
And in Congress, Mike Johnson, a man with deep roots in this movement and the Alliance Defending Freedom, a conservative Christian legal advocacy group, is now speaker of the House.
Now, Supreme Court justices have become caught up in the debate over whether America is a Christian nation. While Justice Alito is hardly openly championing these views, he is embracing language and symbolism that line up with a much broader movement pushing back against the declining power of Christianity as a majority religion in America.
The country has grown more ethnically diverse and the share of American adults who describe themselves as religiously unaffiliated has risen steadily over the past decade. Still, a 2022 report from the Pew Research Center found that more than four in 10 adults believed America should be a “Christian nation.”
Justice Alito’s agreement isn’t the first time he has embraced Christian ways of talking about the law and his vision for the nation.
Shortly after the Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade two years ago, a ruling for which Justice Alito wrote the majority opinion, the justice flew to Rome and addressed a private summit on religious liberty hosted by the University of Notre Dame. His overarching concern was the decline of Christianity in public life, and he warned of what he saw as a “growing hostility to religion, or at least the traditional religious beliefs that are contrary to the new moral code that is ascendant.”
“We can’t lightly assume that the religious liberty enjoyed today in the United States, in Europe and in many other places will always endure,” he said, referencing Christians “torn apart by wild beasts” at the Colosseum before the fall of the Roman Empire...
[T]he resonance of the Sacred Heart goes beyond simply an abstract religious concept, just as the Pride flag does. Each is notable for the vision of America that they symbolize, and the different visions of marriage, family and morality that they represent. For one slice of America that celebrates L.G.B.T.Q. rights, June is Pride Month. For another devout, traditional Catholic slice, June is a time to remember the Sacred Heart.
In Secret Recordings, Alito Endorses Nation of 'Godliness.' Roberts Talks of Pluralism. - "The two justices were surreptitiously recorded at a Supreme Court gala last week by a woman posing as a Catholic conservative."
The justice’s comments appeared to be in marked contrast to those of Chief Justice Roberts, who was also secretly recorded at the same event but who pushed back against Ms. Windsor’s assertion that the court had an obligation to lead the country on a more “moral path.”
“Would you want me to be in charge of putting the nation on a more moral path?” the chief justice said. “That’s for people we elect. That’s not for lawyers.”
Ms. Windsor pressed the chief justice about religion, saying, “I believe that the founders were godly, like were Christians, and I think that we live in a Christian nation and that our Supreme Court should be guiding us in that path.”
Chief Justice Roberts quickly answered, “I don’t know if that’s true.”
He added: “I don’t know that we live in a Christian nation. I know a lot of Jewish and Muslim friends who would say maybe not, and it’s not our job to do that.”
The chief justice also said he did not think polarization in the country was irreparable, pointing out that the United States had managed crises as severe as the Civil War and the Vietnam War.
When Ms. Windsor pressed him on whether he thought that there was “a role for the court” in “guiding us toward a more moral path,” the chief justice’s answer was immediate.
“No, I think the role for the court is deciding the cases,” he said.
American democracy must be grounded in
religious freedom. that's the First Amendment
posted by HearHere at 9:28 AM on June 15 [3 favorites]
religious freedom. that's the First Amendment
posted by HearHere at 9:28 AM on June 15 [3 favorites]
Why wasn't she straight with him? Lying usually never ends well.
posted by Czjewel at 9:29 AM on June 15
posted by Czjewel at 9:29 AM on June 15
I still think George W. Bush did more overall damage to this country than Trump did. That may change if Trump gets a second term. But so much of the horseshit we're having to deal with today got its start with George W. Bush. And every time I see some kind of fawning nostalgia piece about his doing his paintings or whatever-who-gives-a-shit I want to shake people and yell, "YOU KNOW HOW WE'RE ALL TERRIFIED OF TRUMP FOR TRYING TO STEAL AN ELECTION? GEORGE W. BUSH DID STEAL AN ELECTION."
posted by chasing at 9:30 AM on June 15 [66 favorites]
posted by chasing at 9:30 AM on June 15 [66 favorites]
Strongly expect state level refusal to accept a ruling from a theocrat-majority SCOTUS to be the rock the Constitution finally bursts its hull on.
posted by ryanshepard at 9:33 AM on June 15 [13 favorites]
posted by ryanshepard at 9:33 AM on June 15 [13 favorites]
Why wasn't she straight with him? Lying usually never ends well
Fascists like Alito are being truthful. Fascism never ends well.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 10:15 AM on June 15 [18 favorites]
Fascists like Alito are being truthful. Fascism never ends well.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 10:15 AM on June 15 [18 favorites]
The reason the Fox News folks were all up in arms about Sharia Law bullshit is because it’s exactly what they’d do themselves.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 10:59 AM on June 15 [18 favorites]
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 10:59 AM on June 15 [18 favorites]
Alito is Opus Dei, is he not? Opus Dei is a fascist Catholic cult. In some sane universe this should have been a disqualifying fact.
posted by Jessica Savitch's Coke Spoon at 11:02 AM on June 15 [29 favorites]
posted by Jessica Savitch's Coke Spoon at 11:02 AM on June 15 [29 favorites]
I'm third-generation "none", and what I've never managed to understand is a) why the vast majority of Christians seem to think it's just okay to impose the shitty parts of their religion on everyone while openly spurning the good ones like feeding people, and b) why the small minority of Christians who aren't huge dicks spend way more time hazing secular people for resisting shitty Christians instead of calling out shitty Christians for being shitty and also not actually Christians. I cannot tell you how many times I've said "the face of American Christianity is bigotry, misogyny and general shittiness" and got clapback from otherwise non-dicky Christians about how "oh that's not the true face of Christianity" and I'm like go fucking tell it to THEM.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 11:04 AM on June 15 [50 favorites]
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 11:04 AM on June 15 [50 favorites]
The funniest part of this to me is that the right wingers might have valid complaints against Windsor for misrepresenting herself and secretly recording, if they hadn't already defended and embraced significantly worse bullshit from folks like James O'Keefe.
"Democrats, who taught you how to do this stuff?"
"You, all right? I learned it by watching you!"
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 11:33 AM on June 15 [27 favorites]
"Democrats, who taught you how to do this stuff?"
"You, all right? I learned it by watching you!"
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 11:33 AM on June 15 [27 favorites]
Alito is Opus Dei, is he not? Opus Dei is a fascist Catholic cult. In some sane universe this should have been a disqualifying fact.
Yeah, as a Catholic that’s genuinely terrifying.
posted by corb at 11:42 AM on June 15 [10 favorites]
Yeah, as a Catholic that’s genuinely terrifying.
posted by corb at 11:42 AM on June 15 [10 favorites]
I hope he's into cleanliness, also.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 12:09 PM on June 15 [4 favorites]
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 12:09 PM on June 15 [4 favorites]
You can’t help but be into both, since they’re right next to each other.
posted by dr_dank at 1:40 PM on June 15 [7 favorites]
posted by dr_dank at 1:40 PM on June 15 [7 favorites]
It is obvious at this point that the conservative majority on the Supreme Court has abandoned all pretense to impartiality or ethical behavior.
posted by Reverend John at 2:12 PM on June 15 [8 favorites]
posted by Reverend John at 2:12 PM on June 15 [8 favorites]
Not to derail from Alito, but if we're talking about the Court in general, Dalia Lithwick points out that Thomas literally copy/pasted material from the far-right Firearms Policy Coalitionin his bump stock decision.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 2:15 PM on June 15 [15 favorites]
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 2:15 PM on June 15 [15 favorites]
Return to godliness? At what possible point was the US godly? Maybe before humans set up here, like 20,000 years ago. If you’re just talking legally recognized United States, are we wanting a full blown return to slavery and half your children dying before they turn five, or are we more relaxed and just wanting socially acceptable lynching and women not allowed to have their own money? The world these people want can only exist on the beaten backs of the majority who do not conform to their extremely narrow definition of human.
posted by Mizu at 2:28 PM on June 15 [22 favorites]
posted by Mizu at 2:28 PM on June 15 [22 favorites]
Individual supreme court justices are too powerful, which has made it attractive for the extreme right to focus on capturing the court in order to advance their end run around democracy. One of the many reforms that is needed is to dramatically increase the number of justices, so that any one fascist shitheel like Alito that makes it in there has less power to attack democracy. We should have at least two or three times as many SC justices as now, plus term limits.
posted by biogeo at 2:42 PM on June 15 [11 favorites]
posted by biogeo at 2:42 PM on June 15 [11 favorites]
Return to godliness? At what possible point was the US godly?
I think you're parsing "godliness" more literally, when what they mean is "when people were forced on pain of death, poverty or ostracism to at least pretend they were practicing Christians*, which was America's zenith"
* that is, the shitty kind who kick their gay kids out, not the ones who build Habitat for Humanity houses.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 2:44 PM on June 15 [8 favorites]
I think you're parsing "godliness" more literally, when what they mean is "when people were forced on pain of death, poverty or ostracism to at least pretend they were practicing Christians*, which was America's zenith"
* that is, the shitty kind who kick their gay kids out, not the ones who build Habitat for Humanity houses.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 2:44 PM on June 15 [8 favorites]
Shocked, shocked
posted by BlunderingArtist at 3:04 PM on June 15
posted by BlunderingArtist at 3:04 PM on June 15
“Power always thinks it has a great soul and vast views beyond the comprehension of the weak; and that it is doing God’s service when it is violating all his laws.”
– John Adams.
posted by clavdivs at 3:23 PM on June 15 [40 favorites]
– John Adams.
posted by clavdivs at 3:23 PM on June 15 [40 favorites]
And the worst part is, the final outcome of all this will be.... nothing.
There will not be a binding code of conduct on the Supreme Court, not only will the Republicans (and many Democrats) oppose it in Congress but sadly the Supreme Court would probably be right if they argued it was not legally permissible for one branch of government to dictate internal management to another.
That leaves only impeachment and removal from office, and that's not going to happen either. The odds of there ever being fewer than 40 votes to acquit Alito (or Thomas, or whoever) in the Senate are basically zero.
So we come back again to that dangerous political place, the place where people can see something is wrong, and they also see no possible way to make it right. When all legal means of solving a problem are closed, the people have to either accept that the wrong thing will be happening, or find extralegal means to achieve a better outcome. Neither of those are desirable.
I think what hasn't really sunk in for a lot of people yet is just how through Trump's victory in the Supreme Court was. Many people still hold onto the idea that maybe this is a temporary blip, or something that can be fixed soonish.
Alito and Thomas are the oldest sitting Justices and they're 73 and 75 respectively. For extremely wealthy people with absolute top notch healthcare that's not very old. There is absolutely no reason to expect that if the worst (from a Republican POV) happens and Biden wins in November, and even if Harris wins in 2028 that they would not be able to stay alive and on the Court until 2033. They might even live to 2037.
We can, in other words, expect that the current 6-3 balance on the Court will remain in place OR GET WORSE in the next 8 to 12 years.
And remember, they would BOTH need to die or retire during a time when a Democrat is in office for the balance to actually shift.
If Biden loses in November, or if Harris loses in 2028, I think we can expect to see Alito and Thomas seriously considering retirement during a time when they know they'll be replaced by like minded far right wing zealots. No guarantees, they're egotists after all, but I'd be surprised if they didn't retire during the next Republican administration.
Which means we are looking not just at another 8 to 12 years of a 6-3 far right wing lunatic Court, but in all likelihood another 20 to 40 years of it.
Assume the worst for us. Biden loses in November, both Alito and Thomas retire and Trump replaces them with right wing zealots in their late 40's or early 50's. That'd make Roberts the next oldest Republican, he's currently 69.
So the big question for us is simple: given an openly hostile and nakedly partisan Supreme Court for the foreseeable future, what do we do?
posted by sotonohito at 3:34 PM on June 15 [22 favorites]
There will not be a binding code of conduct on the Supreme Court, not only will the Republicans (and many Democrats) oppose it in Congress but sadly the Supreme Court would probably be right if they argued it was not legally permissible for one branch of government to dictate internal management to another.
That leaves only impeachment and removal from office, and that's not going to happen either. The odds of there ever being fewer than 40 votes to acquit Alito (or Thomas, or whoever) in the Senate are basically zero.
So we come back again to that dangerous political place, the place where people can see something is wrong, and they also see no possible way to make it right. When all legal means of solving a problem are closed, the people have to either accept that the wrong thing will be happening, or find extralegal means to achieve a better outcome. Neither of those are desirable.
I think what hasn't really sunk in for a lot of people yet is just how through Trump's victory in the Supreme Court was. Many people still hold onto the idea that maybe this is a temporary blip, or something that can be fixed soonish.
Alito and Thomas are the oldest sitting Justices and they're 73 and 75 respectively. For extremely wealthy people with absolute top notch healthcare that's not very old. There is absolutely no reason to expect that if the worst (from a Republican POV) happens and Biden wins in November, and even if Harris wins in 2028 that they would not be able to stay alive and on the Court until 2033. They might even live to 2037.
We can, in other words, expect that the current 6-3 balance on the Court will remain in place OR GET WORSE in the next 8 to 12 years.
And remember, they would BOTH need to die or retire during a time when a Democrat is in office for the balance to actually shift.
If Biden loses in November, or if Harris loses in 2028, I think we can expect to see Alito and Thomas seriously considering retirement during a time when they know they'll be replaced by like minded far right wing zealots. No guarantees, they're egotists after all, but I'd be surprised if they didn't retire during the next Republican administration.
Which means we are looking not just at another 8 to 12 years of a 6-3 far right wing lunatic Court, but in all likelihood another 20 to 40 years of it.
Assume the worst for us. Biden loses in November, both Alito and Thomas retire and Trump replaces them with right wing zealots in their late 40's or early 50's. That'd make Roberts the next oldest Republican, he's currently 69.
So the big question for us is simple: given an openly hostile and nakedly partisan Supreme Court for the foreseeable future, what do we do?
posted by sotonohito at 3:34 PM on June 15 [22 favorites]
The quickest solution is to add 4 justices such that there is one justice for each district in the US court of appeals. Of course the big problem is that to make that happen you need even more Dem senators than you need to stop the bleeding and prevent more right wing appointees, and getting back to 55 Dem senators or whatever seems extremely unlikely in the near or even medium term.
So first we have to stop the bleeding in 2024 and prevent Trump from pushing the court to 7-2 or something. Then... I dunno, right now my plan is to hope that Alito and Thomas um... leave the court. Let's phrase it like that. Is that a great plan? Not really but it's what we've got.
posted by Justinian at 3:46 PM on June 15 [16 favorites]
So first we have to stop the bleeding in 2024 and prevent Trump from pushing the court to 7-2 or something. Then... I dunno, right now my plan is to hope that Alito and Thomas um... leave the court. Let's phrase it like that. Is that a great plan? Not really but it's what we've got.
posted by Justinian at 3:46 PM on June 15 [16 favorites]
Emptiness is loneliness, and loneliness is cleanliness
And cleanliness is godliness, and God is empty
Just like me
posted by Captaintripps at 3:56 PM on June 15 [2 favorites]
And cleanliness is godliness, and God is empty
Just like me
posted by Captaintripps at 3:56 PM on June 15 [2 favorites]
God is an asterisk for Chief Justice Alito's self satisfaction.
Of course he's right! Or god would have told him so.
SCOSTUS is losing power like a helium balloon.
posted by Max Power at 4:03 PM on June 15 [2 favorites]
Of course he's right! Or god would have told him so.
SCOSTUS is losing power like a helium balloon.
posted by Max Power at 4:03 PM on June 15 [2 favorites]
Well, there is a simple and easy answer to this and Roberts knows it and Alito and Thomas refuse to acknowledge it.
IGNORE THE SUPREME COURT.
Do whatever the hell you want, and if you get arrested for it, milk a sympathetic jury, who will agree that the law is stupid, and they'll let you go. This happened before in our country, Prohibition, and it wasn't the only time.
Roberts knows this. The more Alito and Thomas spit on the social contract, the more the court becomes unnecessary and the more chaos reigns. Roberts wants a conservative America, but not at that price. What happens now? Nobody knows.
posted by dannyboybell at 5:11 PM on June 15 [13 favorites]
IGNORE THE SUPREME COURT.
Do whatever the hell you want, and if you get arrested for it, milk a sympathetic jury, who will agree that the law is stupid, and they'll let you go. This happened before in our country, Prohibition, and it wasn't the only time.
Roberts knows this. The more Alito and Thomas spit on the social contract, the more the court becomes unnecessary and the more chaos reigns. Roberts wants a conservative America, but not at that price. What happens now? Nobody knows.
posted by dannyboybell at 5:11 PM on June 15 [13 favorites]
How do you ignore the Supreme Court when they say it's ok for your boss to fire you for being gay, your state to ban abortion, and rubber stamps Republican election fuckery?
posted by Reverend John at 5:41 PM on June 15 [33 favorites]
posted by Reverend John at 5:41 PM on June 15 [33 favorites]
outbrown hobnail: ...I've never managed to understand is a) why the vast majority of Christians seem to think it's just okay to impose the shitty parts of their religion on everyone...
Because I dont think that's true?
"Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's," and all that is quite explicit. When Christian fascists want to impose their theocracy, that's fascist at its core and not Christian. The New Testament is verrrry clear about that.
posted by wenestvedt at 6:14 PM on June 15 [4 favorites]
Because I dont think that's true?
"Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's," and all that is quite explicit. When Christian fascists want to impose their theocracy, that's fascist at its core and not Christian. The New Testament is verrrry clear about that.
posted by wenestvedt at 6:14 PM on June 15 [4 favorites]
Giving zero shits about any of the good parts of the Christian message and using it as an excuse to commit horrific crimes is the historical norm. The liberalism you feel called to by Christ is the historical anomaly, not the violent authoritarianism. "But the Bible says-" power never cared and never will. Maybe you're right. It has never, historically, mattered.
posted by Pope Guilty at 6:42 PM on June 15 [18 favorites]
posted by Pope Guilty at 6:42 PM on June 15 [18 favorites]
While one might hear that something horrific isn't Christian, I seem to recall something about knowing them by their fruits?
posted by stet at 8:18 PM on June 15 [10 favorites]
posted by stet at 8:18 PM on June 15 [10 favorites]
I don’t know. I mean, there can be a way of working — a way of living together peacefully, but it’s difficult, you know, because there are differences on fundamental things that really can’t be compromised. They really can’t be compromised.
He and his cannot abide people who are nonreligious or who have a religion of which they disapprove living in peace, wellness, and ease upon the Earth.
That is the "compromise" he cannot bear.
His creed vitiates all sacrifice and effort through which we might attain some measure of democratic and just mutual coexistence.
And whenever people in my supposed coalition have chosen not to defend a secular state and have chosen not to condemn atheophobia and bigotry against religious minorities, they have helped build a society where people like this joke of a judge feel emboldened to voice their hideous vision.
posted by audi alteram partem at 8:46 PM on June 15 [15 favorites]
He and his cannot abide people who are nonreligious or who have a religion of which they disapprove living in peace, wellness, and ease upon the Earth.
That is the "compromise" he cannot bear.
His creed vitiates all sacrifice and effort through which we might attain some measure of democratic and just mutual coexistence.
And whenever people in my supposed coalition have chosen not to defend a secular state and have chosen not to condemn atheophobia and bigotry against religious minorities, they have helped build a society where people like this joke of a judge feel emboldened to voice their hideous vision.
posted by audi alteram partem at 8:46 PM on June 15 [15 favorites]
> "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's," and all that is quite explicit. When Christian fascists want to impose their theocracy, that's fascist at its core and not Christian. The New Testament is verrrry clear about that.
yes but also christianity itself was rendered unto caesar a little bit after the crisis of the third century (plz update your “it has been _x_ days since thinking about the roman empire” signs) and it’s been in the hands of various petty caesars ever since
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 1:00 AM on June 16 [13 favorites]
yes but also christianity itself was rendered unto caesar a little bit after the crisis of the third century (plz update your “it has been _x_ days since thinking about the roman empire” signs) and it’s been in the hands of various petty caesars ever since
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 1:00 AM on June 16 [13 favorites]
So first we have to stop the bleeding in 2024
all other considerations for the issues in the usa are secondary to this
posted by lescour at 2:58 AM on June 16 [5 favorites]
all other considerations for the issues in the usa are secondary to this
posted by lescour at 2:58 AM on June 16 [5 favorites]
I’m sure this has been discussed on the blue but I just watched the documentary, Bad Faith, last night. Didn’t tell me anything I didn’t already know but it lays out the rise of CN nicely and is a good start for anyone just learning about all this.
posted by pearlybob at 4:23 AM on June 16 [5 favorites]
posted by pearlybob at 4:23 AM on June 16 [5 favorites]
I’m not sure the idea of a “Christian Nation” accords with ANY of Christ’s teachings. He seemed pretty clear that he didn’t want to rule on Earth. I’m absolutely certain the founding fathers weren’t interested in establishing a Christian nation. So Alito is just wrong about everything.
posted by wabbittwax at 5:54 AM on June 16 [16 favorites]
posted by wabbittwax at 5:54 AM on June 16 [16 favorites]
Fuck their forced conversion of of the USA to their shitty religion
posted by eustatic at 9:39 AM on June 16 [5 favorites]
posted by eustatic at 9:39 AM on June 16 [5 favorites]
Then... I dunno, right now my plan is to hope that Alito and Thomas um... leave the court. Let's phrase it like that. Is that a great plan? Not really but it's what we've got.
I would note that we do have a couple of other plans.
The first would be to expand the Court to 11, one Justice per district. I note that Biden (who keeps begging me for money) has explicitly said he hates the idea and will never do it.
So there IS a solution. There IS a plan.
It's just not one our surrender first liberals will accept.
posted by sotonohito at 10:20 AM on June 16 [5 favorites]
I would note that we do have a couple of other plans.
The first would be to expand the Court to 11, one Justice per district. I note that Biden (who keeps begging me for money) has explicitly said he hates the idea and will never do it.
So there IS a solution. There IS a plan.
It's just not one our surrender first liberals will accept.
posted by sotonohito at 10:20 AM on June 16 [5 favorites]
I specifically noted the expand the Court idea in my comment. It's just not possible without having a Senate majority large enough to overcome any waffler. I'd guess maybe 55-56 seats.
Biden is and will be against expanding the Court (or nixing the filibuster, or any other hardball plays) right up until the moment they have the actual votes to make it happen... after which he may very well suddenly and unexpectedly discover his previous position is no longer operative, Kathy Hochul style. But not a moment before that because it would give the GOP a big club to hit him with for no gain in return.
posted by Justinian at 12:48 PM on June 16 [17 favorites]
Biden is and will be against expanding the Court (or nixing the filibuster, or any other hardball plays) right up until the moment they have the actual votes to make it happen... after which he may very well suddenly and unexpectedly discover his previous position is no longer operative, Kathy Hochul style. But not a moment before that because it would give the GOP a big club to hit him with for no gain in return.
posted by Justinian at 12:48 PM on June 16 [17 favorites]
Chrissy Stroop describes a both/and approach for Democrats that can can broaden their electoral coalition by honoring both religious and nonreligious members—instead of narrowing the coalition as Senator Chris Coons (D) does when he insists on a Democratic Party that recognizes religious faith as central.
posted by audi alteram partem at 1:49 PM on June 16 [3 favorites]
posted by audi alteram partem at 1:49 PM on June 16 [3 favorites]
I’m not sure the idea of a “Christian Nation” accords with ANY of Christ’s teachings.
not entirely off-topic:
the price is, you're going to spend the rest of your life with fucking idiots
Sam sat down with Frank Schaeffer, a man who helped spur on the pro-life movement with the film "What Happened to the Human Race?" and deeply regrets it.
posted by philip-random at 2:09 PM on June 16 [4 favorites]
not entirely off-topic:
the price is, you're going to spend the rest of your life with fucking idiots
Sam sat down with Frank Schaeffer, a man who helped spur on the pro-life movement with the film "What Happened to the Human Race?" and deeply regrets it.
posted by philip-random at 2:09 PM on June 16 [4 favorites]
I’m not sure the idea of a “Christian Nation” accords with ANY of Christ’s teachings. He seemed pretty clear that he didn’t want to rule on Earth. I’m absolutely certain the founding fathers weren’t interested in establishing a Christian nation. So Alito is just wrong about everything.
Somebody actually offered all the kingdoms of earth to Jesus. That was Satan.
posted by Pope Guilty at 2:22 PM on June 16 [12 favorites]
Somebody actually offered all the kingdoms of earth to Jesus. That was Satan.
posted by Pope Guilty at 2:22 PM on June 16 [12 favorites]
The math for the Dems to keep the Senate in 2024 is rough. It’s currently 51 - 49 D, but that includes 4 independents. Because of the 6 year offset cycles, this year there are only 34 seats in play and 23 of those are incumbent D or I. So a net gain by the Rs of 2 seats, or 1 plus a Trump win, gives them the Senate.
posted by caviar2d2 at 3:55 PM on June 16 [3 favorites]
posted by caviar2d2 at 3:55 PM on June 16 [3 favorites]
So the big question for us is simple: given an openly hostile and nakedly partisan Supreme Court for the foreseeable future, what do we do?
Add 12 justices, 12 year terms (I'd prefer 6); rock solid code of ethical conduct, contravening of which leads to simple majority impeachment verdict. If not, just throw out Marbury v. Madison and see what happens.
Other than the 10ish glory years of the Warren court, the Supreme Court has been an extremely powerful, extremely retrograde institution quite successful in achieving its aim at thwarting nearly all efforts at improving human dignity in this country.
posted by WatTylerJr at 12:22 PM on June 17 [2 favorites]
Add 12 justices, 12 year terms (I'd prefer 6); rock solid code of ethical conduct, contravening of which leads to simple majority impeachment verdict. If not, just throw out Marbury v. Madison and see what happens.
Other than the 10ish glory years of the Warren court, the Supreme Court has been an extremely powerful, extremely retrograde institution quite successful in achieving its aim at thwarting nearly all efforts at improving human dignity in this country.
posted by WatTylerJr at 12:22 PM on June 17 [2 favorites]
Return to godliness? At what possible point was the US godly?
The Bible is kind of like the Constitution in that respect. What matters isn't what it literally says, in practical terms, but who has the effective power to dictate what the meaning is of what it says.
You can argue Scriptural differences with a priest or the letter of the law with the likes of Alito or Kacsmaryk, but if their minds are made up before you say a word, you can only get so far.
posted by delfin at 12:48 PM on June 17 [5 favorites]
The Bible is kind of like the Constitution in that respect. What matters isn't what it literally says, in practical terms, but who has the effective power to dictate what the meaning is of what it says.
You can argue Scriptural differences with a priest or the letter of the law with the likes of Alito or Kacsmaryk, but if their minds are made up before you say a word, you can only get so far.
posted by delfin at 12:48 PM on June 17 [5 favorites]
Justinian I dunno man, I got burned out waiting for Democrats to find the right moment to suddenly pivot to actually doing something back during Junior's term in office.
Your faith is stronger than mine.
posted by sotonohito at 4:51 PM on June 18 [2 favorites]
Your faith is stronger than mine.
posted by sotonohito at 4:51 PM on June 18 [2 favorites]
Apparently 2 Notre Dame law professors, one of whom is an ordained priest, are clerking for SCOTUS justices next term.
Is that as weird as it seems to me? Do law professors clerk much? Maybe the conservative wing has decided they need to get some better legal scholars in there to help write more convincing opinions?
To be clear, I am not arguing that priests should be barred from serving as law clerks.
posted by the primroses were over at 5:09 PM on June 20 [4 favorites]
Is that as weird as it seems to me? Do law professors clerk much? Maybe the conservative wing has decided they need to get some better legal scholars in there to help write more convincing opinions?
To be clear, I am not arguing that priests should be barred from serving as law clerks.
posted by the primroses were over at 5:09 PM on June 20 [4 favorites]
I actually think we are at a point where at least ordained priests think they will answer to SOMEBODY.
But also could go either way. Could be “dear god, what the fuck is going on at SCOTUS”, could be that SCOTUS is afraid of all the law schools with the pro Palestine protests.
posted by corb at 5:29 PM on June 20
But also could go either way. Could be “dear god, what the fuck is going on at SCOTUS”, could be that SCOTUS is afraid of all the law schools with the pro Palestine protests.
posted by corb at 5:29 PM on June 20
I actually think we are at a point where at least ordained priests think they will answer to SOMEBODY.
That's one of those ideas that I don't think actually has much relation to reality. We might note, for example, that the belief in a higher power didn't do much to dissuade priests from raping children. Nor nuns from killing infants and teenagers in the Irish Magdalene Laundries.
I'm pretty dubious on the idea that belief in a higher power has any particular impact on a person's likelihood of committing crimes and other misdeeds.
posted by sotonohito at 9:58 AM on June 22 [9 favorites]
That's one of those ideas that I don't think actually has much relation to reality. We might note, for example, that the belief in a higher power didn't do much to dissuade priests from raping children. Nor nuns from killing infants and teenagers in the Irish Magdalene Laundries.
I'm pretty dubious on the idea that belief in a higher power has any particular impact on a person's likelihood of committing crimes and other misdeeds.
posted by sotonohito at 9:58 AM on June 22 [9 favorites]
« Older Just the facts, ma'am/man | Cop Rot Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
posted by rednikki at 9:11 AM on June 15 [11 favorites]