To see beauty in limitation is not an easy thing
June 16, 2024 1:57 AM Subscribe
In our technological age people are often caught between two worlds, forced to choose between what is pleasurable and what is beyond pleasurable. Activity A may be a genuinely enjoyable activity, but as an ordinary pleasure it comes with certain discomforts and limitations. Activity B, on the other hand, promises to move past those limitations, satiating our desire for maximal pleasure. Who wouldn’t want to choose Activity B, then, when the option is presented so readily? from The Rise of Hyperpleasures by Samuel C. Heard (Mere Orthodoxy; ungated)
I'm struck that the hyper-pleasures he describes are all generally solo activities - there is discomfort certainly in other humans but I think we have such a need for connection that something outweighs it.
I'm not sure if drugs do permanently distort the scales - I've never tried heroin or meth and perhaps those can shift your sense of what is possible? My experience of MDMA was that it opened my eyes to how it was possible to feel and encouraged me to seek that out by non-pharmaceutical routes. It never is exactly the high, but something on the way to it without a cost, risk or hangover is pretty good.
posted by eyeofthetiger at 3:47 AM on June 16 [5 favorites]
I'm not sure if drugs do permanently distort the scales - I've never tried heroin or meth and perhaps those can shift your sense of what is possible? My experience of MDMA was that it opened my eyes to how it was possible to feel and encouraged me to seek that out by non-pharmaceutical routes. It never is exactly the high, but something on the way to it without a cost, risk or hangover is pretty good.
posted by eyeofthetiger at 3:47 AM on June 16 [5 favorites]
This doesn't ring true for me.
I found the "Dark Playground" of Tim Urban's "Why Procrastinators Procrastinate a better metaphor.
The dopamine gratifying activities this article in the OP refer to as more pleasurable, are (for me) intensely but incomplete pleasure.
Like the difference between a home cooked meal and a packet of chillie crisps isn't that the chillie crisps tastes better, and a home cooked meal tastes OK and is more trouble to make. Chillie crisps are good in a very narrow sense, not even particularly pleasurable, the endorphin rush of the hot spice and the crunch gets me hooked into eating too much of them.
A good home cooked meal is actually a lot more *pleasurable*. The differences and similarities between the two experiences are a lot more complex than being on a single pleasure scale of 0-10 or whatever number.
posted by Zumbador at 4:09 AM on June 16 [14 favorites]
I found the "Dark Playground" of Tim Urban's "Why Procrastinators Procrastinate a better metaphor.
The dopamine gratifying activities this article in the OP refer to as more pleasurable, are (for me) intensely but incomplete pleasure.
Like the difference between a home cooked meal and a packet of chillie crisps isn't that the chillie crisps tastes better, and a home cooked meal tastes OK and is more trouble to make. Chillie crisps are good in a very narrow sense, not even particularly pleasurable, the endorphin rush of the hot spice and the crunch gets me hooked into eating too much of them.
A good home cooked meal is actually a lot more *pleasurable*. The differences and similarities between the two experiences are a lot more complex than being on a single pleasure scale of 0-10 or whatever number.
posted by Zumbador at 4:09 AM on June 16 [14 favorites]
i’m here to tell you that the world’s last unpleasant experience will be a precisely dateable event! it will happen in our lifetimes if we commit all of our energy today to the task of
we will move at the speed of light! we will expand faster and faster until we become so large and so blissful that we will no longer actually exist!
this has been your stolen bombastic lowercase pronouncement for the day. you’re welcome!
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 4:15 AM on June 16 [21 favorites]
p a r a d i s e
e n g i n e e r i n gwe will move at the speed of light! we will expand faster and faster until we become so large and so blissful that we will no longer actually exist!
this has been your stolen bombastic lowercase pronouncement for the day. you’re welcome!
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 4:15 AM on June 16 [21 favorites]
We enjoy sex in spite of its required vulnerability.
Hey pal speak for yourself
We play sports even though it leaves us winded. Our discomfort rarely outweighs the pleasure we experience completing these activities, but we cannot say we enjoy these experiences because of their discomforts.
Again buddy, speak for yourself, because if this were true then how do you explain all my friends who are avid runners. The discomfort seems to be an ineluctable part of the pleasure for them, which is why I'll never be able to be a runner. I find my masochism elsewhere.
posted by obliterati at 5:24 AM on June 16 [14 favorites]
Hey pal speak for yourself
We play sports even though it leaves us winded. Our discomfort rarely outweighs the pleasure we experience completing these activities, but we cannot say we enjoy these experiences because of their discomforts.
Again buddy, speak for yourself, because if this were true then how do you explain all my friends who are avid runners. The discomfort seems to be an ineluctable part of the pleasure for them, which is why I'll never be able to be a runner. I find my masochism elsewhere.
posted by obliterati at 5:24 AM on June 16 [14 favorites]
I don't buy the pleasure-math here regarding sex vs porn, play vs videogames, reading vs social media, and conversation vs watching videos. Those tech-dopamine activities are really not so exponentially wonderful, are they?
I do want to bring up a hyperpleasure that will be unpopular on the Christian website mereorthodoxy and on the atheist website metafilter: spiritual bliss, of the induced-by-decades-of-meditation variety.
posted by kozad at 5:46 AM on June 16 [10 favorites]
I do want to bring up a hyperpleasure that will be unpopular on the Christian website mereorthodoxy and on the atheist website metafilter: spiritual bliss, of the induced-by-decades-of-meditation variety.
posted by kozad at 5:46 AM on June 16 [10 favorites]
dopamine activities are really not so exponentially wonderful, are they? ...spiritual bliss...
"The nucleus accumbens orchestrates processes related to reward and pleasure, including the addictive consequences of repeated reward ... and the accompanying feelings of craving and anhedonia. The neurotransmitters dopamine and endogenous opiates play interactive roles ...many forms of meditation give rise to an immense and abiding joy. Most of these practices involve “stilling the mind,” whereby all content-laden thought (e.g., fantasies, daydreams, plans) ceases, and the mind enters a state of openness, formlessness, clarity, and bliss. This can be explained by the Buddhist suggestion that almost all of our everyday thoughts are a form of addiction."
[Religion, Brain & Behavior]
posted by HearHere at 6:21 AM on June 16 [6 favorites]
"The nucleus accumbens orchestrates processes related to reward and pleasure, including the addictive consequences of repeated reward ... and the accompanying feelings of craving and anhedonia. The neurotransmitters dopamine and endogenous opiates play interactive roles ...many forms of meditation give rise to an immense and abiding joy. Most of these practices involve “stilling the mind,” whereby all content-laden thought (e.g., fantasies, daydreams, plans) ceases, and the mind enters a state of openness, formlessness, clarity, and bliss. This can be explained by the Buddhist suggestion that almost all of our everyday thoughts are a form of addiction."
[Religion, Brain & Behavior]
posted by HearHere at 6:21 AM on June 16 [6 favorites]
I don't buy the pleasure-math here regarding sex vs porn
Zumbador’s Chille Crisps analogy absolutely holds here, of course.
posted by ryanshepard at 6:25 AM on June 16 [5 favorites]
Zumbador’s Chille Crisps analogy absolutely holds here, of course.
posted by ryanshepard at 6:25 AM on June 16 [5 favorites]
Ctrl-F 'attenuation' -> 0 hits. No fun.
posted by k3ninho at 6:41 AM on June 16 [1 favorite]
posted by k3ninho at 6:41 AM on June 16 [1 favorite]
I'd think like Zumbador that procrastination or prioritization really represent my problem, hence my comments here.
Aside from alcohol, I've mostly avoided "pleasure drugs", but certianly I found the hallucinogens interesting, just LSD and mushrooms, no DMT yet. There is no "hangover" for hallucinogens because they're not really pleasurable, just interesting.
posted by jeffburdges at 6:46 AM on June 16 [4 favorites]
Aside from alcohol, I've mostly avoided "pleasure drugs", but certianly I found the hallucinogens interesting, just LSD and mushrooms, no DMT yet. There is no "hangover" for hallucinogens because they're not really pleasurable, just interesting.
posted by jeffburdges at 6:46 AM on June 16 [4 favorites]
While other activities are pleasurable in spite of discomfort, drugs and alcohol are pleasurable because they remove discomfort. Their telos is to numb us.
i don’t think this author has done enough drugs
posted by dis_integration at 6:48 AM on June 16 [19 favorites]
i don’t think this author has done enough drugs
posted by dis_integration at 6:48 AM on June 16 [19 favorites]
I think reading — videos and conversation — social media make more sense, but it’s not very complete. A junkie I used to know said he kicked heroin and meth partly because, years later, he still craved heroin as the most pleasurable thing ever, but he realized, that while it was, it was also his only pleasure, and smaller pleasures (eg a job he liked, relationships, enjoying books and movies, having a child) in aggregate were more pleasurable and satisfying than heroin. His model kind of refutes the author’s x10, x100 framing.
There’s also an angle where only a portion of the population seem vulnerable to any addiction. Video games are very much a “take it or leave it” thing to me, while I can overdo it with audio books and podcasts. How does that fit in?
He also ignores capitalism’s interest in fostering all sorts of addictions for profit.
posted by GenjiandProust at 6:49 AM on June 16 [13 favorites]
There’s also an angle where only a portion of the population seem vulnerable to any addiction. Video games are very much a “take it or leave it” thing to me, while I can overdo it with audio books and podcasts. How does that fit in?
He also ignores capitalism’s interest in fostering all sorts of addictions for profit.
posted by GenjiandProust at 6:49 AM on June 16 [13 favorites]
reading further: the author fundamentally misunderstands the present, almost everything called a hyper pleasure is an anxiety coping mechanism, not a dopamine pump.
posted by dis_integration at 6:52 AM on June 16 [35 favorites]
posted by dis_integration at 6:52 AM on June 16 [35 favorites]
There is a force at work like this in myself. I think about it in terms of the hedonic treadmill, the idea that humans get accustomed to a certain level of happiness and so if you acquire a bunch of things to make yourself happier you are indeed happier for a bit, before long you get used to it and are no happier than when you started. Worse, exposure to what used to be OK now feels bad.
I don't like the author's postulation that there are hyperpleasures that are somehow absolutely more pleasurable forever. I don't find the examples particularly compelling. But there's definitely something to the part of the essay about "Enjoying the Normal".
Historically one way society breaks the hedonic treadmill cycle is by appealing to some external absolute sense of good. Religion, or volunteering to help others, or pursuing some abstract specific goal like creating art or doing research. There's a whole lot of psychology showing people feel happier when they think what they do with their time benefits others.
posted by Nelson at 6:55 AM on June 16 [5 favorites]
I don't like the author's postulation that there are hyperpleasures that are somehow absolutely more pleasurable forever. I don't find the examples particularly compelling. But there's definitely something to the part of the essay about "Enjoying the Normal".
Historically one way society breaks the hedonic treadmill cycle is by appealing to some external absolute sense of good. Religion, or volunteering to help others, or pursuing some abstract specific goal like creating art or doing research. There's a whole lot of psychology showing people feel happier when they think what they do with their time benefits others.
posted by Nelson at 6:55 AM on June 16 [5 favorites]
I'll be honest, I kind of TL;DRed this article when I lost interest about halfway. But I find the comparison of meth (if meth in fact has the effect the article says it does; I have never done meth, so I don't know) to internet stuff an awkward one at best. I'll explain what I mean.
I don't think anyone really believes that porn is inherently better than sex, or that listening to a podcast is inherently better than experiencing nature, or that playing a video game is inherently better than having a peak physical experience, like working out or going ballroom dancing. But the easy, clicky-clicky option is just easier. It is easier to watch TV than to write a poem. It is easier to rub one out than to reach out to a human being for contact. It is easier to listen to a podcast than it is to go to a park and try to absorb the sounds of nature, which inevitably will include annoying assholes playing terrible music, their shrieking kids, and -- horrors!!! -- the possibility of those stinky people even trying to talk to our own holy personage. Fucking hell!
I would argue that none of the clicky-clicky is better than a physical, ideal experience. But ideal experience is not a guarantee. The clicky-clicky provides a predictable stimulus that we can easily disconnect from in the event we don't like it anymore -- this movie triggered me, this article got boring, I am in this picture and I do not like it.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 6:57 AM on June 16 [10 favorites]
I don't think anyone really believes that porn is inherently better than sex, or that listening to a podcast is inherently better than experiencing nature, or that playing a video game is inherently better than having a peak physical experience, like working out or going ballroom dancing. But the easy, clicky-clicky option is just easier. It is easier to watch TV than to write a poem. It is easier to rub one out than to reach out to a human being for contact. It is easier to listen to a podcast than it is to go to a park and try to absorb the sounds of nature, which inevitably will include annoying assholes playing terrible music, their shrieking kids, and -- horrors!!! -- the possibility of those stinky people even trying to talk to our own holy personage. Fucking hell!
I would argue that none of the clicky-clicky is better than a physical, ideal experience. But ideal experience is not a guarantee. The clicky-clicky provides a predictable stimulus that we can easily disconnect from in the event we don't like it anymore -- this movie triggered me, this article got boring, I am in this picture and I do not like it.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 6:57 AM on June 16 [10 favorites]
I do want to bring up a hyperpleasure that will be unpopular on the Christian website mereorthodoxy and on the atheist website metafilter: spiritual bliss, of the induced-by-decades-of-meditation variety.
too slow, wolfie
posted by lalochezia at 6:58 AM on June 16 [2 favorites]
Was about to subscribe to read the article, but was suspicious of the "susbscribe" button.
posted by otherchaz at 7:00 AM on June 16 [1 favorite]
posted by otherchaz at 7:00 AM on June 16 [1 favorite]
Reading: If reading gives an 8,9, 10 on the pleasure scale, then social media is a 20, 30, 100, etc.
With respect to all you zombies, escaping into a shit book is way better than social media, admittedly while refreshing a thread or endless-scroll gives a hit of novelty.
I've already asked about attenuation, where's the chat about attention economy, where's FOMO?
posted by k3ninho at 7:02 AM on June 16 [3 favorites]
With respect to all you zombies, escaping into a shit book is way better than social media, admittedly while refreshing a thread or endless-scroll gives a hit of novelty.
I've already asked about attenuation, where's the chat about attention economy, where's FOMO?
posted by k3ninho at 7:02 AM on June 16 [3 favorites]
Control-F “supernormal stimulus”, not found. This guy could have used some basic research on the topic.
posted by notoriety public at 7:05 AM on June 16 [7 favorites]
posted by notoriety public at 7:05 AM on June 16 [7 favorites]
Most of these practices involve “stilling the mind,” whereby all content-laden thought (e.g., fantasies, daydreams, plans) ceases, and the mind enters a state of openness, formlessness, clarity, and bliss.
This may rank among the most neurotypical sentences I have ever read.
It is easier to listen to a podcast than it is to go to a park and try to absorb the sounds of nature, which inevitably will include annoying assholes playing terrible music, their shrieking kids, and -- horrors!!! -- the possibility of those stinky people even trying to talk to our own holy personage.
You forgot the heat, the pollen, the mosquitos...
posted by Faint of Butt at 7:06 AM on June 16 [6 favorites]
This may rank among the most neurotypical sentences I have ever read.
It is easier to listen to a podcast than it is to go to a park and try to absorb the sounds of nature, which inevitably will include annoying assholes playing terrible music, their shrieking kids, and -- horrors!!! -- the possibility of those stinky people even trying to talk to our own holy personage.
You forgot the heat, the pollen, the mosquitos...
posted by Faint of Butt at 7:06 AM on June 16 [6 favorites]
we have an obligation to ourselves and to our fellow humans and to that distinct special spark of humanity that dwells within us that dwells within each and every one of us to experience such mindwarping pleasures for so long a time that we no longer remain recognizably human at all.
this is the only acceptable stance to take and anyone who says otherwise is a both a fool and a coward and anyone who says otherwise has thereby betrayed the most important part of themselves to no end and for no reason. we must — as you know — use the gift of the human intellect and the miraculous uncanny sinister superscience that springs from it to experience and then be consumed by hyperpleasures beyond imagination.
i am right and deep in your heart you know that i am right and to deny yourself the desire for infinite everything is in essence the sin against the holy ghost and i will not abide it and neither
should you.
hearken, if you will, to the sound of my voice. allons-y.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 7:16 AM on June 16 [6 favorites]
this is the only acceptable stance to take and anyone who says otherwise is a both a fool and a coward and anyone who says otherwise has thereby betrayed the most important part of themselves to no end and for no reason. we must — as you know — use the gift of the human intellect and the miraculous uncanny sinister superscience that springs from it to experience and then be consumed by hyperpleasures beyond imagination.
i am right and deep in your heart you know that i am right and to deny yourself the desire for infinite everything is in essence the sin against the holy ghost and i will not abide it and neither
should you.
hearken, if you will, to the sound of my voice. allons-y.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 7:16 AM on June 16 [6 favorites]
We play sports even though it leaves us winded. Our discomfort rarely outweighs the pleasure we experience completing these activities, but we cannot say we enjoy these experiences because of their discomforts
I'm no jock, but it seems to me that the physical body "wants" to be used or stressed, and for me, the pleasure of a good hike or bike ride often includes being a little bit tired, hungry, sometimes even a little sore, afterwards. There's a sense of accomplishment and growth. Relaxing, eating/drinking, socializing afterwards - all are enhanced. I sleep better.
If we want pleasure without effort... drugs or direct neural stimulus. But the pleasures I most value either involve, or are the outcome of effort. Even the pleasure of a great meal involves the prep and cooking (or work for the money to pay the restaurant).
posted by Artful Codger at 7:26 AM on June 16 [10 favorites]
I'm no jock, but it seems to me that the physical body "wants" to be used or stressed, and for me, the pleasure of a good hike or bike ride often includes being a little bit tired, hungry, sometimes even a little sore, afterwards. There's a sense of accomplishment and growth. Relaxing, eating/drinking, socializing afterwards - all are enhanced. I sleep better.
If we want pleasure without effort... drugs or direct neural stimulus. But the pleasures I most value either involve, or are the outcome of effort. Even the pleasure of a great meal involves the prep and cooking (or work for the money to pay the restaurant).
posted by Artful Codger at 7:26 AM on June 16 [10 favorites]
almost everything called a hyper pleasure is an anxiety coping mechanism, not a dopamine pump.
I sometimes make a distinction between “healthy” listening to podcasts/reading MetaFilter/checking in on Discord/etc and “self medicating.” After a bit of doing either, the difference in intent becomes pretty pronounced.
posted by GenjiandProust at 7:41 AM on June 16 [4 favorites]
I sometimes make a distinction between “healthy” listening to podcasts/reading MetaFilter/checking in on Discord/etc and “self medicating.” After a bit of doing either, the difference in intent becomes pretty pronounced.
posted by GenjiandProust at 7:41 AM on June 16 [4 favorites]
Also, I think I reject the idea that the things the author identifies as hyperpleasures are > 10. I think they're "easy" 7s and 8s, and people settle for a steady stream of that as opposed to the effort required to have a less frequent 9 or 10 experience.
(I accept the assertion that some drugs can deliver 100+, just based on what people sacrifice to keep hitting that high)
As far as I'm concerned, most social media* is generally a 4 to 6. Junk food for the bored mind. What little experience I have had with it, I soon got to whipping out that phone whenever a dull moment threatened. When I found myself anticipating the next time I could revisit it, instead of doing something more productive or rewarding, it was time to remove that crap from my phone.
*Metafilter makes me think and reflect, and often leads me to useful stuff. so I allow myself that one.
posted by Artful Codger at 8:01 AM on June 16 [4 favorites]
(I accept the assertion that some drugs can deliver 100+, just based on what people sacrifice to keep hitting that high)
As far as I'm concerned, most social media* is generally a 4 to 6. Junk food for the bored mind. What little experience I have had with it, I soon got to whipping out that phone whenever a dull moment threatened. When I found myself anticipating the next time I could revisit it, instead of doing something more productive or rewarding, it was time to remove that crap from my phone.
*Metafilter makes me think and reflect, and often leads me to useful stuff. so I allow myself that one.
posted by Artful Codger at 8:01 AM on June 16 [4 favorites]
>We play sports even though it leaves us winded
I think many people play sport (or exercise in general) because of endorphins. When I was younger, the pain from exercise was massively dwarfed by the pleasure from endorphins. As I've aged, something has shifted - I don't know if the pain is greater or the pleasure is less, but the net effect is that exercise is now a chore, not a fun activity.
posted by mrgoldenbrown at 8:01 AM on June 16 [2 favorites]
I think many people play sport (or exercise in general) because of endorphins. When I was younger, the pain from exercise was massively dwarfed by the pleasure from endorphins. As I've aged, something has shifted - I don't know if the pain is greater or the pleasure is less, but the net effect is that exercise is now a chore, not a fun activity.
posted by mrgoldenbrown at 8:01 AM on June 16 [2 favorites]
This stuff doesn't ring true to me at all. Imho the defining characteristic of social media is that it's compelling even when it's kind of unpleasant. People get addicted to gambling not because the pleasure is completely out of proportion to their daily life, but because of how it's structured to keep you hooked. It's as much the promise of pleasure, not the actual pleasure, that keeps people coming back.
If we all rate screen-watching from the comfort of our couches above leaving the house, why does Taylor Swift sell out arenas? I think most Swifties rates a Taylor Swift concert far above watching it from a movie theater or on their phone screen. People at a Broadway show aren't sitting there wishing they were safely at home listening to the cast recording. I don't think most people's experience of COVID lockdowns were "wow, drinking a beer and binging Star Trek in my pajamas is 10x better than going out to the bar, why did we ever do that?" because, witness how bars immediately filled up again once they were allowed to serve customers inside.
I don't have a particularly healthy relationship with Online but none of it is because I'm wireheading it. All my supernormal stimuli are stuff like "seeing my favorite band with my friends", but such is not available when I'm bored of a Sunday morning, which is why I'm posting this comment instead.
posted by BungaDunga at 8:05 AM on June 16 [5 favorites]
If we all rate screen-watching from the comfort of our couches above leaving the house, why does Taylor Swift sell out arenas? I think most Swifties rates a Taylor Swift concert far above watching it from a movie theater or on their phone screen. People at a Broadway show aren't sitting there wishing they were safely at home listening to the cast recording. I don't think most people's experience of COVID lockdowns were "wow, drinking a beer and binging Star Trek in my pajamas is 10x better than going out to the bar, why did we ever do that?" because, witness how bars immediately filled up again once they were allowed to serve customers inside.
I don't have a particularly healthy relationship with Online but none of it is because I'm wireheading it. All my supernormal stimuli are stuff like "seeing my favorite band with my friends", but such is not available when I'm bored of a Sunday morning, which is why I'm posting this comment instead.
posted by BungaDunga at 8:05 AM on June 16 [5 favorites]
there are entire genres of jokes about how social media scrolling can feel terrible in the moment, and yet we keep doing it (twitter link)! There are people out there who have, eg, convinced themselves that they are obligated to watch videos of wartime atrocities- there was a recent AskMe about it, which seems unfair to link- but people aren't doing that because it brings them pleasure, let alone more pleasure than they could ever get outside of a screen.
posted by BungaDunga at 8:10 AM on June 16 [1 favorite]
posted by BungaDunga at 8:10 AM on June 16 [1 favorite]
Adding to those who don't agree with the categories of hyperpleasure this article is based on - things like youtube, social media are definitely addictive but I would not say I experience intense pleasure from them. Not even from porn - it does not give me what I want, which is human connection.
The most intensely happy I've been in my life was after a three-day walking holiday along the Pembrokeshire coast in Wales, having a good breakfast every morning (usually scrambled eggs and smoked salmon), and dinners of baked fish, fresh peas, sauteed potatoes and few pints of beer. I'm serious - the fact that I was so intensely happy kind of blew my mind and I'm still trying to figure out what it meant. I don't expect it to be something I would be able to incorporate into my everyday life.
posted by maggiemaggie at 8:13 AM on June 16 [12 favorites]
The most intensely happy I've been in my life was after a three-day walking holiday along the Pembrokeshire coast in Wales, having a good breakfast every morning (usually scrambled eggs and smoked salmon), and dinners of baked fish, fresh peas, sauteed potatoes and few pints of beer. I'm serious - the fact that I was so intensely happy kind of blew my mind and I'm still trying to figure out what it meant. I don't expect it to be something I would be able to incorporate into my everyday life.
posted by maggiemaggie at 8:13 AM on June 16 [12 favorites]
I have never been more hooked on a book or videogame than when I've lost all enjoyment of it and been motivated by pure spite to sprint to the end of the damn thing
posted by BungaDunga at 8:13 AM on June 16 [7 favorites]
posted by BungaDunga at 8:13 AM on June 16 [7 favorites]
(that Wikipedia page on supernormal stimulous linked to upthread is certainly something. Especially the description of how women walk.)
posted by Zumbador at 8:47 AM on June 16 [2 favorites]
posted by Zumbador at 8:47 AM on June 16 [2 favorites]
Having read the rest of it now, I suppose I don't disagree with the overall notion of what he writes when it comes to the changing character of how we orient to pleasure and limits on pleasure, i.e., that we are, collectively, increasingly reflexive in our demand for limits to be removed on our achievement of pleasure or satisfaction, and that social media has something to do with this. Of course marking "social media" as a driver of this trend stops far too short, in that "social media" really just signifies "capitalism"/the drive of capital, which introduces a metastasizing quality to everything it touches in the human psyche.
I gather the publication is a theological one, and he's described as a theology student in the author blurb; so it's too bad there's not more said about what is lost to us collectively when we start to repudiate the operation of limits/discomfort on pleasure, because I do appreciate what theological perspectives have long had to say about the subjectivity of suffering. There's a lot of interesting things to explore about the imbrication of suffering and pleasure, and treating them as so totally distinct or opposed feels like an oversight, as others have referenced above through examples of things that are bad/feel bad for us but we seem to be compelled to keep doing more of anyway.
Like, if he, e.g., talked to more folks who were deepest in the throes of drug addiction, it'd become clear that the love/hate distinction doesn't really even apply anymore, certainly not to a subject's relation to the object of addiction. All we could say for sure about anyone in such a position is that there is tremendous compulsion and suffering.
posted by obliterati at 9:07 AM on June 16 [2 favorites]
I gather the publication is a theological one, and he's described as a theology student in the author blurb; so it's too bad there's not more said about what is lost to us collectively when we start to repudiate the operation of limits/discomfort on pleasure, because I do appreciate what theological perspectives have long had to say about the subjectivity of suffering. There's a lot of interesting things to explore about the imbrication of suffering and pleasure, and treating them as so totally distinct or opposed feels like an oversight, as others have referenced above through examples of things that are bad/feel bad for us but we seem to be compelled to keep doing more of anyway.
Like, if he, e.g., talked to more folks who were deepest in the throes of drug addiction, it'd become clear that the love/hate distinction doesn't really even apply anymore, certainly not to a subject's relation to the object of addiction. All we could say for sure about anyone in such a position is that there is tremendous compulsion and suffering.
posted by obliterati at 9:07 AM on June 16 [2 favorites]
I'm increasingly convinced that the hyper stimulus examples like porn/drugs/etc are generally used for self-regulation instead of for pleasure. They start out as intense versions of normal pleasure, but then we build them into our lives and they become a predictable way to center our emotions. This is definitely true for me (related to my autism, my online activity is my main stim) and seems to be true for chronically-online people with ADHD and OCD in a similar way. This is the same way as saying they are "coping mechanisms", but they're generally somewhere between healthy coping and an addiction (because they are not overall harmful and can be stopped when necessary).
It is very upsetting to not quite know what is going on and how to feel about it, and the internet makes that even more confusing. Love/sex is an inherently risky and confusing interaction with lots of ways it can go wrong, but the stimulation of porn is much more predictable and consistent. The strong negative emotions on Reddit (or here sometimes) can be comforting because it provides an anchor for how we "should feel" about the world. I definitely use doomscrolling to give myself stability when I feel overwhelmed by some social or work thing.
I don't particularly want to give up my "hyperpleasures" because I do need them to self regulate, but I have been working to be more deliberate about when I engage with them. I have never felt better having 4 drinks of alcohol then when I have 2 drinks of alcohol, but the social pressure and time distortion makes it very easy to lose track. Looking back at it, I always enjoy a small dessert more than a very large american-style dessert. Part of me feels obligated to "finish my food", and that is a dangerous feeling to have around exaggerated stimuli. No, you don't need to finish your dessert and we should probably stop after we eat the first half.
posted by JZig at 10:57 AM on June 16 [5 favorites]
It is very upsetting to not quite know what is going on and how to feel about it, and the internet makes that even more confusing. Love/sex is an inherently risky and confusing interaction with lots of ways it can go wrong, but the stimulation of porn is much more predictable and consistent. The strong negative emotions on Reddit (or here sometimes) can be comforting because it provides an anchor for how we "should feel" about the world. I definitely use doomscrolling to give myself stability when I feel overwhelmed by some social or work thing.
I don't particularly want to give up my "hyperpleasures" because I do need them to self regulate, but I have been working to be more deliberate about when I engage with them. I have never felt better having 4 drinks of alcohol then when I have 2 drinks of alcohol, but the social pressure and time distortion makes it very easy to lose track. Looking back at it, I always enjoy a small dessert more than a very large american-style dessert. Part of me feels obligated to "finish my food", and that is a dangerous feeling to have around exaggerated stimuli. No, you don't need to finish your dessert and we should probably stop after we eat the first half.
posted by JZig at 10:57 AM on June 16 [5 favorites]
METAFILTER: I find my masochism elsewhere.
posted by philip-random at 11:07 AM on June 16 [6 favorites]
posted by philip-random at 11:07 AM on June 16 [6 favorites]
JZig I have a similar relationship with using social media for self regulation.
There's such a lot of reflexive judgement everywhere about "screens" and social media that I don't know whether I'm fooling myself, but I don't think I'd be better off without it.
I'm extremely anxious, and lonely (and autistic) and I find this type of interaction and input very soothing and helpful.
The times when I've not had access to social media, my mental health deteriorates, despite doing all the things I'm "supposed" to like being outdoors, exercise, creative projects, offline friends, having pets, etc.
I still do all those things, but I also spend a lot of time online.
posted by Zumbador at 11:08 AM on June 16 [1 favorite]
There's such a lot of reflexive judgement everywhere about "screens" and social media that I don't know whether I'm fooling myself, but I don't think I'd be better off without it.
I'm extremely anxious, and lonely (and autistic) and I find this type of interaction and input very soothing and helpful.
The times when I've not had access to social media, my mental health deteriorates, despite doing all the things I'm "supposed" to like being outdoors, exercise, creative projects, offline friends, having pets, etc.
I still do all those things, but I also spend a lot of time online.
posted by Zumbador at 11:08 AM on June 16 [1 favorite]
Zumbador aside: Any time I am reminded of Tim Urban I first think of their post laying out how everyone basically has 100 blocks of ten minutes a day. I find the math for 60 (thanks Sumerians) of 15 minute blocks (thanks attention span) to suit my mental construction/experience of time. Also, my scheme works out to be exactly 15 hours, which has a nice math balance/feel to it.
I also strongly associate Urban's work with the feeling that I am running out of time - primarily due to the post "Tail end" (previously).
It's not the various timeframes broken into little grids that struck a cord with me. It doesn't really sink in until well into the section where Urban has switched the focus to 'life events'. These life events start off very generic, basic americana, like super bowls and presidents. But right after estimating that only 300 books will fit into their remaining time Urban spends only a couple of lines on something that is clearly a precious thing - going to Fenway to watch a baseball game.
20 little icons are listed! That's it! And I thought to myself, that is so little. This got to me, and I really dwelled on it. And my eventual conclusion was that this was far too optimistic. I thought about my very favorite things to do that I experience at about that rate of 'every so many years'. The issue isn't the maths - Urban kept that simple to make the point. The issue is that these experiences do not exist in a steady state.
I think 12 is generally more realistic. Like, I really enjoy music, I like seeing shows and many of my friends are musicians. It is very unlikely I will get to see my friends perform another dozen times. There is three trends - my own participation is down, my friends don't play as often and the venues don't feature as many local acts.
posted by zenon at 11:29 AM on June 16 [5 favorites]
I also strongly associate Urban's work with the feeling that I am running out of time - primarily due to the post "Tail end" (previously).
It's not the various timeframes broken into little grids that struck a cord with me. It doesn't really sink in until well into the section where Urban has switched the focus to 'life events'. These life events start off very generic, basic americana, like super bowls and presidents. But right after estimating that only 300 books will fit into their remaining time Urban spends only a couple of lines on something that is clearly a precious thing - going to Fenway to watch a baseball game.
20 little icons are listed! That's it! And I thought to myself, that is so little. This got to me, and I really dwelled on it. And my eventual conclusion was that this was far too optimistic. I thought about my very favorite things to do that I experience at about that rate of 'every so many years'. The issue isn't the maths - Urban kept that simple to make the point. The issue is that these experiences do not exist in a steady state.
I think 12 is generally more realistic. Like, I really enjoy music, I like seeing shows and many of my friends are musicians. It is very unlikely I will get to see my friends perform another dozen times. There is three trends - my own participation is down, my friends don't play as often and the venues don't feature as many local acts.
posted by zenon at 11:29 AM on June 16 [5 favorites]
As an alcoholic, I can tell you that this doesn't math. I also don't believe that pornography feels better than sex or that videogames feel better than social competitions or personal achievement. What these things absolutely have in common with drugs is reliability. They can be counted on to work the same way with the same effort every time, or at least with a slow diminishing of returns.
If good sex is a ten, porn is perhaps a reliable 8 or 9 with minimal effort. If regular life runs the gamut from 1-10, alcohol gives you 9-500 with minimal effort. This is based on actual studies of dopamine response. Harder drugs keep climbing. Opioids are as dangerous as they are because they really do hit 1000+.
posted by es_de_bah at 11:33 AM on June 16 [4 favorites]
If good sex is a ten, porn is perhaps a reliable 8 or 9 with minimal effort. If regular life runs the gamut from 1-10, alcohol gives you 9-500 with minimal effort. This is based on actual studies of dopamine response. Harder drugs keep climbing. Opioids are as dangerous as they are because they really do hit 1000+.
posted by es_de_bah at 11:33 AM on June 16 [4 favorites]
As for these baptist concerns about the hyper of the pleasures, this reminds me of that twitter takedown of Jordan Peterson:
Their churches are empty because the whole enterprise is hollow.
posted by zenon at 11:42 AM on June 16 [5 favorites]
Why do you expect anything deeper than what Peterson provides? You want my critique of Heidegger, I will give you pages.It's right in the name of the magazine-Mere Orthodoxy. It is just repackaging of the same rubbish - therapy is bad or whatever this mealymouthed dance around masculinity is.
You want my critique of a clown, it’ll be laughter. You’re not entitled to anyone inventing intellectual depth on his part just because you wish he had it.
Their churches are empty because the whole enterprise is hollow.
posted by zenon at 11:42 AM on June 16 [5 favorites]
I came to this thread seeing the Title: "To see the beauty in limitation..."
To bring my own favorite "limited" beauty in the heavily restricted, in form, of Haiku Poetry. And saying "Of course you can see beauty in restriction...blah blah".
Then these threads just remind me of Spider Robinson's book (there are others) of what happens when people are able to (eventually?) electrically stimulate the pleasure centers of the brain.
That and the campaign (then joke) "Better living through Chemistry"...
And the posts about the benefits of "slow cooking/living"...
And the...
posted by aleph at 11:53 AM on June 16 [2 favorites]
To bring my own favorite "limited" beauty in the heavily restricted, in form, of Haiku Poetry. And saying "Of course you can see beauty in restriction...blah blah".
Then these threads just remind me of Spider Robinson's book (there are others) of what happens when people are able to (eventually?) electrically stimulate the pleasure centers of the brain.
That and the campaign (then joke) "Better living through Chemistry"...
And the posts about the benefits of "slow cooking/living"...
And the...
posted by aleph at 11:53 AM on June 16 [2 favorites]
I think the author of this piece suffers from a generalized anhedonia which pervades his life like a thick fog investing a rugged landscape that only the highest peaks can pierce, and even those not all that far.
And I also believe the near universality of this condition is a distinctly modern phenomenon mediated by low levels of ubiquitous brain-damaging chemicals causing subclinical levels of brain inflammation and consequent subclinical depressive states.
posted by jamjam at 1:37 PM on June 16 [4 favorites]
And I also believe the near universality of this condition is a distinctly modern phenomenon mediated by low levels of ubiquitous brain-damaging chemicals causing subclinical levels of brain inflammation and consequent subclinical depressive states.
posted by jamjam at 1:37 PM on June 16 [4 favorites]
or something of a twist on Jello Biafra's old rant:
The comfort you′ve demanded is now mandatory
but switch comfort out for "pleasure".
posted by philip-random at 1:51 PM on June 16 [1 favorite]
The comfort you′ve demanded is now mandatory
but switch comfort out for "pleasure".
posted by philip-random at 1:51 PM on June 16 [1 favorite]
I think one of the reasons it’s harder to allot time and effort to the slow pleasures is that we all work more now, and worse, we all do our own customer service now. We have less time than ever, and less physical and emotional energy than ever. I’d love to go for a bike ride right now, but first I have to make these fifteen phone calls to people who are only empowered to say “No.”
posted by toodleydoodley at 1:51 PM on June 16 [3 favorites]
posted by toodleydoodley at 1:51 PM on June 16 [3 favorites]
...aaaand now, you can just zap away heartache!
O brave new world...
But hey, this kind of completes the set:
- you hook up or find a date with an app
- they break yr heart, just zap those blues away
- surf some p0rn
- repeat
posted by Artful Codger at 1:55 PM on June 16 [1 favorite]
O brave new world...
But hey, this kind of completes the set:
- you hook up or find a date with an app
- they break yr heart, just zap those blues away
- surf some p0rn
- repeat
posted by Artful Codger at 1:55 PM on June 16 [1 favorite]
I used to do meth. Apparently, I was doing it wrong, because it was a means not an end. I didn't do it for pleasure, I did it to stay up all night and do other drugs for pleasure. Imagine my surprise years later when I discover, the reason I still fell asleep in font of the amps at punk shows was that I was ADHD and was really self medicating. As to junkies, I knew a lot of them. All of the ones I knew where super unhappy. I didn't ask but I suspect the junk was a way to avoid feeling the unbearable weight of their unhappiness. Honestly, if meth or heroine addicted people were the happiest people, we'd have a lot more of them. But what do I know?
posted by evilDoug at 5:42 PM on June 16 [7 favorites]
posted by evilDoug at 5:42 PM on June 16 [7 favorites]
it's curious that the op writes "drugs and alcohol are pleasurable because they remove discomfort. Their telos is to numb us" and then continues to frame the harm of such activities around how pleasurable they are instead of how numbing they are.
and by "curious" i actually mean kinda boneheaded, and almost certainly derived from typical christian thought re: pleasure and sin.
this article suffers from the tendency of sophists everywhere to take a simple metaphor (the 1-10 vs. 1-1000 scale) initially used to explain a particular situation (why do meth addicts in recovery experience anhedonia?) and construct an entire theory around it ("hyperpleasures"), which necessitates shoehorning in examples that don't even really fit the supposed metaphor to begin with (in no world is pornography 100x or even 10x better or "more pleasurable" than sex. it would have been easier to see how obviously silly this statement is if the author hadn't been too shy to write "masturbation," which is what he actually means, instead of porn.)
posted by a flock of goslings at 6:23 PM on June 16 [7 favorites]
and by "curious" i actually mean kinda boneheaded, and almost certainly derived from typical christian thought re: pleasure and sin.
this article suffers from the tendency of sophists everywhere to take a simple metaphor (the 1-10 vs. 1-1000 scale) initially used to explain a particular situation (why do meth addicts in recovery experience anhedonia?) and construct an entire theory around it ("hyperpleasures"), which necessitates shoehorning in examples that don't even really fit the supposed metaphor to begin with (in no world is pornography 100x or even 10x better or "more pleasurable" than sex. it would have been easier to see how obviously silly this statement is if the author hadn't been too shy to write "masturbation," which is what he actually means, instead of porn.)
posted by a flock of goslings at 6:23 PM on June 16 [7 favorites]
Yeah, I noped out when he lumped in going for a walk while listening to music with dangerously addictive drugs, of all the fucking things. Try talking to a real addict, recovering or not, rather than basing it all around something you read on Reddit.
posted by Halloween Jack at 6:30 PM on June 16 [6 favorites]
posted by Halloween Jack at 6:30 PM on June 16 [6 favorites]
When someone says that pornography is 200 on the scale of pleasure compared to 10 for the real thing, I'm wondering if they've ever had good sex.
posted by storybored at 7:35 PM on June 16 [5 favorites]
posted by storybored at 7:35 PM on June 16 [5 favorites]
The source website's about page says:
posted by the antecedent of that pronoun at 7:46 PM on June 16 [5 favorites]
We are committed to Nicean orthodoxy as well as the orthodox teachings of Scripture and the church concerning sex and gender.so allow that to help you calibrate the size of the grain of salt you need to take with it. Some weird hand wringing about porn would seem to be par for the course.
posted by the antecedent of that pronoun at 7:46 PM on June 16 [5 favorites]
Maybe he's just a world-champion masturbationist, ascending to heights that us mere mortals cannot conceive of.
posted by BungaDunga at 8:07 PM on June 16 [3 favorites]
posted by BungaDunga at 8:07 PM on June 16 [3 favorites]
And according to his own metrics, he does it while playing Call of Duty, scrolling Instagram, and autoplaying Youtube, all which grant him 100+ pleasure scores. Wizard.
posted by credulous at 9:26 PM on June 16 [2 favorites]
posted by credulous at 9:26 PM on June 16 [2 favorites]
assuming such pleasures stack, that combo presumably comes close to approximating how fun meth is
posted by BungaDunga at 10:17 PM on June 16 [2 favorites]
posted by BungaDunga at 10:17 PM on June 16 [2 favorites]
p a r a d i s e
e n g i n e e r i n g
The future exists first
in our imagination
Then in our will
Then in reality
posted by Audreynachrome at 2:48 AM on June 17 [1 favorite]
e n g i n e e r i n g
The future exists first
in our imagination
Then in our will
Then in reality
posted by Audreynachrome at 2:48 AM on June 17 [1 favorite]
Joywire me already. I never want more for the world than when I am ecstatic.
posted by Audreynachrome at 2:49 AM on June 17 [1 favorite]
posted by Audreynachrome at 2:49 AM on June 17 [1 favorite]
Since dopamine keeps getting mentioned and the chemistry misunderstood:
Please stop calling dopamine the ‘pleasure chemical’
posted by Ayn Marx at 4:18 AM on June 17 [6 favorites]
Please stop calling dopamine the ‘pleasure chemical’
posted by Ayn Marx at 4:18 AM on June 17 [6 favorites]
Yeah, as a liberal, socialist, gay-as-fuck Christian that website is buuuuuuuull shit. Known quantity.
I have enjoyed the much better discussion here though.
posted by lokta at 6:36 AM on June 17 [3 favorites]
I have enjoyed the much better discussion here though.
posted by lokta at 6:36 AM on June 17 [3 favorites]
Zumbador aside: Any time I am reminded of Tim Urban I first think of their post laying out how everyone basically has 100 blocks of ten minutes a day. I find the math for 60 (thanks Sumerians) of 15 minute blocks (thanks attention span) to suit my mental construction/experience of time. Also, my scheme works out to be exactly 15 hours, which has a nice math balance/feel to it.
Good god, ever heard an idea so bad for you that you wish you never heard it at all?! I am glad I have a bad memory and am easily distracted and will soon forget this whole concept before I start turning every moment of my life into a ticking clock counting down to punishing myself for timeblock waste.
posted by GoblinHoney at 8:29 AM on June 17 [4 favorites]
Good god, ever heard an idea so bad for you that you wish you never heard it at all?! I am glad I have a bad memory and am easily distracted and will soon forget this whole concept before I start turning every moment of my life into a ticking clock counting down to punishing myself for timeblock waste.
posted by GoblinHoney at 8:29 AM on June 17 [4 favorites]
@Halloween Jack:
I agree with the author about music, and here’s why: I spent 20 years with significantly decreased neurotransmitter function due to a genetic nutrient processing issue. I was consistently suicidal the whole time, so I did a lot of drugs. When I started taking the right supplement, suddenly I could feel real joy. And when I listened to music again (particularly pop music), I was furious at all the people who’d told me not to do drugs (the drugs which kept me alive), because they’d had access to this drug (music) the whole time and failed to mention it. Music can absolutely act as a drug.
posted by vim876 at 8:45 AM on June 17 [4 favorites]
I agree with the author about music, and here’s why: I spent 20 years with significantly decreased neurotransmitter function due to a genetic nutrient processing issue. I was consistently suicidal the whole time, so I did a lot of drugs. When I started taking the right supplement, suddenly I could feel real joy. And when I listened to music again (particularly pop music), I was furious at all the people who’d told me not to do drugs (the drugs which kept me alive), because they’d had access to this drug (music) the whole time and failed to mention it. Music can absolutely act as a drug.
posted by vim876 at 8:45 AM on June 17 [4 favorites]
It's as much the promise of pleasure, not the actual pleasure, that keeps people coming back.
That's what dopamine is approximately "about": not the experiencing of reward, but the anticipation of reward.
Heroin isn't a problem because it's pleasurable; it's a problem because it is motivating- to the point that it can sap the motivation to do other things that you might want to want to do.
posted by a faded photo of their beloved at 8:55 AM on June 17 [5 favorites]
That's what dopamine is approximately "about": not the experiencing of reward, but the anticipation of reward.
Heroin isn't a problem because it's pleasurable; it's a problem because it is motivating- to the point that it can sap the motivation to do other things that you might want to want to do.
posted by a faded photo of their beloved at 8:55 AM on June 17 [5 favorites]
Music can absolutely act as a drug.
This is absolutely true. Add in mild sleep deprivation and I have absolutely managed to dance myself into mildly altered states, no substances involved. Music/dance/staying up all night is possibly older than drugs, in human prehistory (though I expect we had booze very early too)
posted by BungaDunga at 9:22 AM on June 17 [1 favorite]
This is absolutely true. Add in mild sleep deprivation and I have absolutely managed to dance myself into mildly altered states, no substances involved. Music/dance/staying up all night is possibly older than drugs, in human prehistory (though I expect we had booze very early too)
posted by BungaDunga at 9:22 AM on June 17 [1 favorite]
calling music a drug just drags it down.
Music exists at a level that drugs wish they could get us to.
posted by philip-random at 9:47 AM on June 17 [4 favorites]
Music exists at a level that drugs wish they could get us to.
posted by philip-random at 9:47 AM on June 17 [4 favorites]
I clicked through because I was curious what he meant by "hyperpleasures." Having read the article, I disagree with all of his examples and can't really think of any myself. As others have noted, some things are pleasurable because they require effort.
The premise is inherently flawed, because dude can't distinguish between addictive and pleasurable (which are entirely two different animals).
I'm also annoyed to have created an account to read the article, only to see I've accidentally joined a Christian website (something my exvangelical self is loathe to do), and then I STILL had to go to the ungated edition.
posted by skullhead at 10:06 AM on June 17 [3 favorites]
The premise is inherently flawed, because dude can't distinguish between addictive and pleasurable (which are entirely two different animals).
I'm also annoyed to have created an account to read the article, only to see I've accidentally joined a Christian website (something my exvangelical self is loathe to do), and then I STILL had to go to the ungated edition.
posted by skullhead at 10:06 AM on June 17 [3 favorites]
Having read the article, I disagree with all of his examples and can't really think of any myself.
I like drinking beer, never done drugs, but it never gave me a 'hyperpleasure' nor did I (generally) do it out of sadness. I've been around a bunch of people who did drugs (some addicted, some self-medicating, some just for fun the way I drank) but it never seemed like they were having more way fun than anyone else.
If I had to imagine 'hyperpleasures', they'd be things that are way outside your normal wheelhouse of 'pleasure' - the stuff of dreams.
Good luck, sexual experiences that one would normally only dream about, exciting experiences (sportscars, skydiving, skiing) etc. Not drugs, unless that's your 'exciting experience' that you dream about.
posted by The_Vegetables at 12:11 PM on June 17 [1 favorite]
I like drinking beer, never done drugs, but it never gave me a 'hyperpleasure' nor did I (generally) do it out of sadness. I've been around a bunch of people who did drugs (some addicted, some self-medicating, some just for fun the way I drank) but it never seemed like they were having more way fun than anyone else.
If I had to imagine 'hyperpleasures', they'd be things that are way outside your normal wheelhouse of 'pleasure' - the stuff of dreams.
Good luck, sexual experiences that one would normally only dream about, exciting experiences (sportscars, skydiving, skiing) etc. Not drugs, unless that's your 'exciting experience' that you dream about.
posted by The_Vegetables at 12:11 PM on June 17 [1 favorite]
already asked about attenuation, previously
where's the chat about attention economy, previously: where information goods are (pure) public goods -- non-rival and non-excludable -- which breaks capitalism (as we know it!), "To the extent that propaganda is based on current news, it cannot permit time for thought or reflection, "ultimately the difference between the right and the left is this: The right thinks you get more out of people by treating them badly, the left thinks you get more out of people by treating them well", This attention to decisions themselves as both a scarce resource and a catalytic force was the clearest statement of Hirschman’s distinctively optimistic and pragmatic brand of reformism, "switching" is doing a lot of work here, implementing a facial recognition network that predicts whether an AI researcher is prone to promoting bad science, Can I mention the digital divide?, Don't anthropomorphize the lawnmower, There is no price for averting a climate catastrophe, this could be the start of a transatlantic challenge to neoliberalism, It's standard operating procedure for the anti-choice movement to deploy lies and conspiracy theories to fight against women's rights, What would David Harvey say about Modern Monetary Theory? [davidharvey.org], handling information with sophistication and meaning, not merely mechanically, a vastly complex polynomial optimizer that turns blood and suffering into cash, This wouldn't have happened if we'd stuck with with Gopher., Economic theory tells us that firms are more likely to exploit labor market power than product market power in the United States today, prices and value are different things, someone who takes the teaching component of my job seriously and so who probably thinks about issues of interpretive labor(*), "It is only with the coming of the Industrial Revolution that work as we now understand it emerged, no capitalist system works while it's still inflicting terrible conditions on people elsewhere on other countries, feedback mechanisms are rewarding the wrong types of conversation, I can absolutely relate to the "continuous partial attention" referred to, Previously the economics of paper defined the way we consume written words, turn each sentence into a thought vector, it is an absurdity to privatize a public good--, Machine learning is like money laundering for bias", we must acknowledge the racial rules that undergird our economy and society, Walls and other flood control measures are worthless since the place is sitting on top of very porous limestone, They use slaves to mine the dilithium that powers the replicators [wordpress], Prosperity in a society is the accumulation of solutions to human problems, Moving from 'markets' to 'algorithms' just shifts the problem unless they are beneficent 'machines of loving grace' out there that look beyond the efficient frontier, social engineering through stratification, the early U.S. government was both far more bureaucratic and expansive than partisans of deregulation assert, the story essentially went viral among the snail-science publications of the day, During the Great Depression the Switchback closed and was sold for scrap, Kant is one of the intellectual progenitors (along with Hume) of instrumental rationality [Hume? previously], Ubiquitous automation need not be the only sci-fi trope to hang our future around, József Hajdú discovered x-ray records in the archives of the Hungarian Postal Museum, the skills myth shifts attention away from the spectacle of soaring profits and bonuses even as employment and wages stagnate, The algorithm does not understand the psychological nuances of why you might like one thing and not another even though they have comparatively similar keywords and reach similar audiences, Hyperbole is the currency in these videos, Oh wait, there is something about the Beyonce's sister on the TV, got to go :-), Somaliland is an odd land, it behooves us to learn and understand the (nonlinear) programming it would take to run on 'bare metal', Musicians and writers have been doing this forever, what are the lingering consequences that may affect our society to this day?, accessible coverage of the 2008 financial meltdown led to a spinoff podcast, where a woman goes to a concert headlined by the artist called "the most attention-starved character in hip-hop" known for making "brute, no-nuance bangers" [(previously)] and comes out with a new perspective, our eyes have been averted from the capital/labor dimension of inequality, Instead of reiterating old dogmas (whether they come from Keynes or from Hayek) more people should be asking themselves what is happening here, noting only that his recommendation of a stimulus above six hundred billion dollars was “an economic judgment that would need to be combined with political judgments about what is feasible”, "Efficiency" is a flexible term and needs to be defined/measured against what the desired outcome is, the MMO landscape is littered with games that had initial spikes of attention, there is a deep undercurrent of appropriation and "domestication" of what was then mysterious, I would downgrade "the international media is ignoring this" to "the English media is ignoring this." the worst thing in the world we can do is cut back on basic research in the universities, a major international initiative to draw attention to the global economic benefits of biodiversity, The 'attention economy' is so 2007, Spinal Tap guys should have been given bigger roles, Revisiting The Economy of Attention
posted to MeFi … on April 3, 2007
where's FOMO?
posted by HearHere at 12:45 AM on June 18
where's the chat about attention economy, previously: where information goods are (pure) public goods -- non-rival and non-excludable -- which breaks capitalism (as we know it!), "To the extent that propaganda is based on current news, it cannot permit time for thought or reflection, "ultimately the difference between the right and the left is this: The right thinks you get more out of people by treating them badly, the left thinks you get more out of people by treating them well", This attention to decisions themselves as both a scarce resource and a catalytic force was the clearest statement of Hirschman’s distinctively optimistic and pragmatic brand of reformism, "switching" is doing a lot of work here, implementing a facial recognition network that predicts whether an AI researcher is prone to promoting bad science, Can I mention the digital divide?, Don't anthropomorphize the lawnmower, There is no price for averting a climate catastrophe, this could be the start of a transatlantic challenge to neoliberalism, It's standard operating procedure for the anti-choice movement to deploy lies and conspiracy theories to fight against women's rights, What would David Harvey say about Modern Monetary Theory? [davidharvey.org], handling information with sophistication and meaning, not merely mechanically, a vastly complex polynomial optimizer that turns blood and suffering into cash, This wouldn't have happened if we'd stuck with with Gopher., Economic theory tells us that firms are more likely to exploit labor market power than product market power in the United States today, prices and value are different things, someone who takes the teaching component of my job seriously and so who probably thinks about issues of interpretive labor(*), "It is only with the coming of the Industrial Revolution that work as we now understand it emerged, no capitalist system works while it's still inflicting terrible conditions on people elsewhere on other countries, feedback mechanisms are rewarding the wrong types of conversation, I can absolutely relate to the "continuous partial attention" referred to, Previously the economics of paper defined the way we consume written words, turn each sentence into a thought vector, it is an absurdity to privatize a public good--, Machine learning is like money laundering for bias", we must acknowledge the racial rules that undergird our economy and society, Walls and other flood control measures are worthless since the place is sitting on top of very porous limestone, They use slaves to mine the dilithium that powers the replicators [wordpress], Prosperity in a society is the accumulation of solutions to human problems, Moving from 'markets' to 'algorithms' just shifts the problem unless they are beneficent 'machines of loving grace' out there that look beyond the efficient frontier, social engineering through stratification, the early U.S. government was both far more bureaucratic and expansive than partisans of deregulation assert, the story essentially went viral among the snail-science publications of the day, During the Great Depression the Switchback closed and was sold for scrap, Kant is one of the intellectual progenitors (along with Hume) of instrumental rationality [Hume? previously], Ubiquitous automation need not be the only sci-fi trope to hang our future around, József Hajdú discovered x-ray records in the archives of the Hungarian Postal Museum, the skills myth shifts attention away from the spectacle of soaring profits and bonuses even as employment and wages stagnate, The algorithm does not understand the psychological nuances of why you might like one thing and not another even though they have comparatively similar keywords and reach similar audiences, Hyperbole is the currency in these videos, Oh wait, there is something about the Beyonce's sister on the TV, got to go :-), Somaliland is an odd land, it behooves us to learn and understand the (nonlinear) programming it would take to run on 'bare metal', Musicians and writers have been doing this forever, what are the lingering consequences that may affect our society to this day?, accessible coverage of the 2008 financial meltdown led to a spinoff podcast, where a woman goes to a concert headlined by the artist called "the most attention-starved character in hip-hop" known for making "brute, no-nuance bangers" [(previously)] and comes out with a new perspective, our eyes have been averted from the capital/labor dimension of inequality, Instead of reiterating old dogmas (whether they come from Keynes or from Hayek) more people should be asking themselves what is happening here, noting only that his recommendation of a stimulus above six hundred billion dollars was “an economic judgment that would need to be combined with political judgments about what is feasible”, "Efficiency" is a flexible term and needs to be defined/measured against what the desired outcome is, the MMO landscape is littered with games that had initial spikes of attention, there is a deep undercurrent of appropriation and "domestication" of what was then mysterious, I would downgrade "the international media is ignoring this" to "the English media is ignoring this." the worst thing in the world we can do is cut back on basic research in the universities, a major international initiative to draw attention to the global economic benefits of biodiversity, The 'attention economy' is so 2007, Spinal Tap guys should have been given bigger roles, Revisiting The Economy of Attention
posted to MeFi … on April 3, 2007
where's FOMO?
posted by HearHere at 12:45 AM on June 18
The premise is inherently flawed, because dude can't distinguish between addictive and pleasurable (which are entirely two different animals).
I don't know that I'd call them entirely different animals; what's different about addiction is the compulsion to seek out the particular pleasurable stimulant, usually to the detriment of the addict. Aside from pushing back at the labeling of music as a "drug" (it isn't, really, just because it gives pleasure), my experience not only as a listener to music but also as a performer in no way is similar to my experience as an alcohol addict.
posted by Halloween Jack at 7:36 AM on June 18 [1 favorite]
I don't know that I'd call them entirely different animals; what's different about addiction is the compulsion to seek out the particular pleasurable stimulant, usually to the detriment of the addict. Aside from pushing back at the labeling of music as a "drug" (it isn't, really, just because it gives pleasure), my experience not only as a listener to music but also as a performer in no way is similar to my experience as an alcohol addict.
posted by Halloween Jack at 7:36 AM on June 18 [1 favorite]
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i'm alright with 11
posted by HearHere at 3:33 AM on June 16 [1 favorite]