How the automobile industry turned us into SUV drivers
June 25, 2024 7:18 AM Subscribe
The arms race thing feels really true to me. We always drove mid-sized sedans when I was a kid and while they were dwarfed by the logging trucks and F-150s, they were still on par with most of what was on the road. Now riding in any car feels unsafe because you can't see past *anything*.
posted by jacquilynne at 7:30 AM on June 25 [26 favorites]
posted by jacquilynne at 7:30 AM on June 25 [26 favorites]
I used to look at zippy little classic cars like Triumphs and Alfa Romeos with envy, thinking maybe some day…
Now I wouldn’t be caught dead in one on an American highway
posted by gottabefunky at 7:49 AM on June 25 [9 favorites]
Now I wouldn’t be caught dead in one on an American highway
posted by gottabefunky at 7:49 AM on June 25 [9 favorites]
My first car was a 1997 RAV4, which was a perfect vehicle size. I drove it for years. Plenty of room for dogs, friends, activities, tall enough to feel safe on the road but not so tall you can't safely see hazards/small children playing in front of you. When my RAV4 hit the end of its lifespan and I had to look for a new car, the later model RAV4s were all far too big. Everything was Too Big, even the "little" crossover vehicles that are supposed to offer an in between option.
So I shifted tactics and got a Subaru Impreza wagon. Still plenty of room for dogs/friends/activities, but she's SO low to the ground. I feel like a shrimpy little runt out on the road with the big dogs, and on the highway when it's crowded I do sometimes feel like I'm going to be sucked under a truck. It took a few years of driving, but I adapted.
I've had to drive my parents' 2004 Sequoia a few times in emergencies and it's like driving a tank, and I mean that in the Tiananmen Square sense where you are safe but everyone around you is in danger. You can't even see the lane stripes on either side of you. Child riding their bike in front of you? Or is playing in your driveway behind your car as you back out? Forget about it, you can't see them. We had a family, let's call them the Bradys, on our street growing up that had 6 small kids, and we had a running joke to shout "BRADY CHILD!" any time the Sequoia needed to be backed out of the drive to remind everyone to actually physically get out and look behind the car before putting it in gear.
posted by phunniemee at 7:52 AM on June 25 [17 favorites]
So I shifted tactics and got a Subaru Impreza wagon. Still plenty of room for dogs/friends/activities, but she's SO low to the ground. I feel like a shrimpy little runt out on the road with the big dogs, and on the highway when it's crowded I do sometimes feel like I'm going to be sucked under a truck. It took a few years of driving, but I adapted.
I've had to drive my parents' 2004 Sequoia a few times in emergencies and it's like driving a tank, and I mean that in the Tiananmen Square sense where you are safe but everyone around you is in danger. You can't even see the lane stripes on either side of you. Child riding their bike in front of you? Or is playing in your driveway behind your car as you back out? Forget about it, you can't see them. We had a family, let's call them the Bradys, on our street growing up that had 6 small kids, and we had a running joke to shout "BRADY CHILD!" any time the Sequoia needed to be backed out of the drive to remind everyone to actually physically get out and look behind the car before putting it in gear.
posted by phunniemee at 7:52 AM on June 25 [17 favorites]
Car dealerships in North America revert to pens and paper after cyberattacks on software provider
Car dealerships in North America are still wrestling with major disruptions that started last week with cyberattacks on a company whose software is used widely in the auto retail sales sector.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 7:54 AM on June 25 [2 favorites]
Car dealerships in North America are still wrestling with major disruptions that started last week with cyberattacks on a company whose software is used widely in the auto retail sales sector.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 7:54 AM on June 25 [2 favorites]
I don't think my memory is faulty recalling that adding cupholders increases sales of these things because if you can feel safe enough to drink scalding hot coffee while driving you can feel safe enough to ignore everything around you on the road, and cupholders implicitly give you that permission.
posted by seanmpuckett at 7:58 AM on June 25 [7 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 7:58 AM on June 25 [7 favorites]
We need weight based registration now. The federal gas tax hasn't gone up since 1993 and road damage is dictated by the fourth power law. These giant SUVs are fucking freeloaders. Which is why they bitch and moan so loudly whenever anyone says they should pay their fair share of infrastructure costs.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 7:59 AM on June 25 [80 favorites]
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 7:59 AM on June 25 [80 favorites]
major disruptions that started last week
Ha I went in for regular service on Wednesday last week and the intake guy was all in a panic because the system was down and they had to do everything on paper. Guess this was that!
posted by phunniemee at 8:00 AM on June 25 [1 favorite]
Ha I went in for regular service on Wednesday last week and the intake guy was all in a panic because the system was down and they had to do everything on paper. Guess this was that!
posted by phunniemee at 8:00 AM on June 25 [1 favorite]
It's a prisoners' dilemma situation. If everyone drove smaller cars, you wouldn't need a road tank to feel safe. But because everyone else is in a road track, you get screwed if you're not.
Regulation. Or taxation based on weight (as had already been suggested).
posted by Dysk at 8:03 AM on June 25 [8 favorites]
Regulation. Or taxation based on weight (as had already been suggested).
posted by Dysk at 8:03 AM on June 25 [8 favorites]
Huh. I got new tires last week, and they had to give me a hand-typed receipt (with my name spelled wrong). They said their system was down. I guess now I know what they meant.
posted by OnceUponATime at 8:04 AM on June 25 [1 favorite]
posted by OnceUponATime at 8:04 AM on June 25 [1 favorite]
I drove my teenage niece's zippy little 2002 Honda sedan when I was in South Carolina last week to run errands and help my mom. Those are the kinds of cars I grew up with (but obv much boxier in the 90s) and I felt comfortable. My sister has a HUGE SUV (her husband has one of those useless giant trucks for a Southern man in suburbia) and it felt very scary. Like, it's huge! I have to climb up to get in!
I haven't been a car owner for a decade now--the acknowledged privilege of owning a house in a central neighbourhood where all my immediate needs are met--but if these are my options should I want one, I guess I will continue to be car-free. Also, when people bitch about the cost of gas, look to your SUV and how those are foisted upon you. You are effectively putting a quarter in your own butt, every time.
posted by Kitteh at 8:05 AM on June 25 [8 favorites]
I haven't been a car owner for a decade now--the acknowledged privilege of owning a house in a central neighbourhood where all my immediate needs are met--but if these are my options should I want one, I guess I will continue to be car-free. Also, when people bitch about the cost of gas, look to your SUV and how those are foisted upon you. You are effectively putting a quarter in your own butt, every time.
posted by Kitteh at 8:05 AM on June 25 [8 favorites]
Like a lot of things that were at least headed in the right direction in the 70s, it was turned around by competitive boomer/yuppies - my children are better protected than yours.
posted by brachiopod at 8:08 AM on June 25 [2 favorites]
posted by brachiopod at 8:08 AM on June 25 [2 favorites]
We need weight based registration now.
We should be encouraging people to move away from gas-powered vehicles for the environmental benefit, but weight-based registration would penalize hybrid and electric car ownership since they weigh more than their gas-equivalent model.
posted by NotMyselfRightNow at 8:19 AM on June 25 [11 favorites]
We should be encouraging people to move away from gas-powered vehicles for the environmental benefit, but weight-based registration would penalize hybrid and electric car ownership since they weigh more than their gas-equivalent model.
posted by NotMyselfRightNow at 8:19 AM on June 25 [11 favorites]
I recall reading years ago that automakers switched to making SUVs (i.e. personal cars on truck-based chassis) because the emissions requirements were lower, meaning development and production could also be lower so they could sell vehicles at more of a profit. I'd guess the "biggest person on the road" appeal was a side benefit.
posted by Greg_Ace at 8:24 AM on June 25 [11 favorites]
posted by Greg_Ace at 8:24 AM on June 25 [11 favorites]
Moving extra weight is climate damaging even if the motor is electric. Charge vehicle licenses for the damage they incur.
(The possibility of heavy fast electric vehicles is pretty new. I remember the calculations that electrifying autos would allow auto mobility to be CO2-sustainable assuming that electric vehicles would be smaller. )
posted by clew at 8:32 AM on June 25 [18 favorites]
(The possibility of heavy fast electric vehicles is pretty new. I remember the calculations that electrifying autos would allow auto mobility to be CO2-sustainable assuming that electric vehicles would be smaller. )
posted by clew at 8:32 AM on June 25 [18 favorites]
I've been a little surprised that modern compact SUVs aren't that much longer than previous US hatchbacks. Given that I can only buy cars that exist, I can get something about the same length as my 2014 Nissan Leaf, but it will probably be SUV shaped. I'll still get better range and better mileage, but I do wonder if that could be even better if they made one more hatchback shaped.
posted by advicepig at 8:33 AM on June 25 [2 favorites]
posted by advicepig at 8:33 AM on June 25 [2 favorites]
I am sympathetic to not wanting to penalize people driving EVs and hybrids, but there is a fiscal reality in addition to a climate one. Our roads and highways are hugely expensive to maintain, and the gas tax already is not sufficient to pay for them. Heavier vehicles contribute more to the wear and tear on the roads than lighter vehicles do, and it's not illogical to therefore charge them more in some way. Especially given that they use less gas (and therefore pay even less, or zero, gas tax).
I don't know politically how to do it but eventually we need to either transition to a VMT tax instead of/in addition to fuel taxes, possibly with a weight-related modifier, or accept that we are going to have to spend more and more of our general tax funds to pay for roads.
posted by misskaz at 8:35 AM on June 25 [13 favorites]
I don't know politically how to do it but eventually we need to either transition to a VMT tax instead of/in addition to fuel taxes, possibly with a weight-related modifier, or accept that we are going to have to spend more and more of our general tax funds to pay for roads.
posted by misskaz at 8:35 AM on June 25 [13 favorites]
weight-based registration would penalize hybrid and electric car ownership since they weigh more than their gas-equivalent model.
Weight based registration only applies only to vehicles that are equipped exclusively with internal combustion engines and/or vehicles whose frame exceeds $$height which separates sedans from pickup trucks and SUVs$$
There, I fixed it.
It's car regulations. There's no rule which says you can only class vehicles by weight. It's not like car types are a protected class. Weight may be a convenient shorthand way of separating vehicle types for the purposes of taxation/regulation, but it doesn't have to be the only requirement.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 8:45 AM on June 25 [9 favorites]
Weight based registration only applies only to vehicles that are equipped exclusively with internal combustion engines and/or vehicles whose frame exceeds $$height which separates sedans from pickup trucks and SUVs$$
There, I fixed it.
It's car regulations. There's no rule which says you can only class vehicles by weight. It's not like car types are a protected class. Weight may be a convenient shorthand way of separating vehicle types for the purposes of taxation/regulation, but it doesn't have to be the only requirement.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 8:45 AM on June 25 [9 favorites]
Regulation. Or
maybe you should need to be at least thirty before you can drive anything over a certain size. There are so many overBIG vehicles on the road these days, I only tend to notice them when they're doing something stupid. And in these cases, it's almost always someone I'd categorize as "young"
posted by philip-random at 8:50 AM on June 25 [4 favorites]
maybe you should need to be at least thirty before you can drive anything over a certain size. There are so many overBIG vehicles on the road these days, I only tend to notice them when they're doing something stupid. And in these cases, it's almost always someone I'd categorize as "young"
posted by philip-random at 8:50 AM on June 25 [4 favorites]
I've been driving small cars since I got my license 35 years ago. First it was VW beetles, then Golfs. I replaced my old Golf with a VW GTI last year because VW no longer imports Golfs to Canada since they decided to go to a "North American market" sales model like everyone else. Americans don't like hatchbacks, so Canada doesn't get them anymore either. Canada used to have a lot of only-in-Canada small cars as they were more popular here due to much higher gas prices.
We also have a minivan, but we live in the city and it is awful to drive something that big. Both my wife and I fight over who get the small car whenever we both need a car at the same time. We even do a lot of road trips in the small car, even with two teenage boys. The van is relegated to second-car duty, camping, and the rare occasions we have to haul a lot of stuff.
My dad always had big, long bed double cab trucks, and I always hated driving the things. Give me a small car any day.
I will admit that the GTI is much more fun to drive as a Golf, but it is definitely a lot less efficient.
posted by fimbulvetr at 8:51 AM on June 25 [2 favorites]
We also have a minivan, but we live in the city and it is awful to drive something that big. Both my wife and I fight over who get the small car whenever we both need a car at the same time. We even do a lot of road trips in the small car, even with two teenage boys. The van is relegated to second-car duty, camping, and the rare occasions we have to haul a lot of stuff.
My dad always had big, long bed double cab trucks, and I always hated driving the things. Give me a small car any day.
I will admit that the GTI is much more fun to drive as a Golf, but it is definitely a lot less efficient.
posted by fimbulvetr at 8:51 AM on June 25 [2 favorites]
I’m confused by the first infographic, they list the end of Prius Type-C as if that’s the end of Prius, and the Nissan Leaf in 2025, but both
are being replaced. Data on what people are buying looks legit, and so I’d expect automaker options to follow, but I don’t know enough to know if they are.
Government policy has been used to limit small trucks (to the benefit of US automakers), I’m all for using regulations above to reassign the “real costs” onto large / luxury car consumers (including the costs of mortality!). I’d get a fuel saving car regardless, and just take the chance to get it in visible red or yellow!
posted by rubatan at 9:05 AM on June 25
are being replaced. Data on what people are buying looks legit, and so I’d expect automaker options to follow, but I don’t know enough to know if they are.
Government policy has been used to limit small trucks (to the benefit of US automakers), I’m all for using regulations above to reassign the “real costs” onto large / luxury car consumers (including the costs of mortality!). I’d get a fuel saving car regardless, and just take the chance to get it in visible red or yellow!
posted by rubatan at 9:05 AM on June 25
I keep thinking of this truck v. tank infographic (Reddit)
I drive a mini-SUV, the Chevy Trax (prior version - not the new updated "used to be called a Trailblazer" version). It holds 5 people (technically - whoever is in middle seat is a bit squished) but is small enough to fit in my little South Minneapolis garage. This car is the right size for me. I don't need anything bigger. But when it's time to replace it, what are my options? Everything else is getting bigger. I refuse to buy a car I can't fit in my garage.
(Also despite nearly 3 decades of driving a Chevy, GM's new stance on infotainment system means I'm out. No CarPlay, no deal. Guess I'm looking at Subaru now like apparently every other person in Minnesota.)
posted by caution live frogs at 9:09 AM on June 25 [7 favorites]
I drive a mini-SUV, the Chevy Trax (prior version - not the new updated "used to be called a Trailblazer" version). It holds 5 people (technically - whoever is in middle seat is a bit squished) but is small enough to fit in my little South Minneapolis garage. This car is the right size for me. I don't need anything bigger. But when it's time to replace it, what are my options? Everything else is getting bigger. I refuse to buy a car I can't fit in my garage.
(Also despite nearly 3 decades of driving a Chevy, GM's new stance on infotainment system means I'm out. No CarPlay, no deal. Guess I'm looking at Subaru now like apparently every other person in Minnesota.)
posted by caution live frogs at 9:09 AM on June 25 [7 favorites]
The infographic is Canada-based infographic as to when any sedans/compacts were discontinued for car sales in Canada.
For example, no new Nissan Leafs will be available in Canada after 2025.
posted by Kitteh at 9:11 AM on June 25 [4 favorites]
For example, no new Nissan Leafs will be available in Canada after 2025.
posted by Kitteh at 9:11 AM on June 25 [4 favorites]
The bullshit with CAFE has been the place this could've been fixed decades ago, but for whatever reason, the government has always been terrified of anything that might make someone give up their dick enhancement, er, truck.
I was recently wondering what had changed with CAFE such that automakers were ditching anything small and efficient; the change mentioned in the article about 'footprint' calculations is the answer.
Condensed Wikipedia section:
Starting in 2011, the CAFE standards are newly expressed as mathematical functions depending on vehicle footprint, a measure of vehicle size determined by multiplying the vehicle's wheelbase by its average track width. CAFE footprint requirements are set up such that a vehicle with a larger footprint has a lower fuel economy requirement than a vehicle with a smaller footprint. For example, the fuel economy target for the 2012 Honda Fit with a footprint of 40 sq ft is 36 miles per US gallon, and a Ford F-150 with its footprint of 65–75 sq ft has a fuel economy target of 22 miles per US gallon.
We already know how to address this, we just won't.
posted by Ickster at 9:11 AM on June 25 [19 favorites]
I was recently wondering what had changed with CAFE such that automakers were ditching anything small and efficient; the change mentioned in the article about 'footprint' calculations is the answer.
Condensed Wikipedia section:
Starting in 2011, the CAFE standards are newly expressed as mathematical functions depending on vehicle footprint, a measure of vehicle size determined by multiplying the vehicle's wheelbase by its average track width. CAFE footprint requirements are set up such that a vehicle with a larger footprint has a lower fuel economy requirement than a vehicle with a smaller footprint. For example, the fuel economy target for the 2012 Honda Fit with a footprint of 40 sq ft is 36 miles per US gallon, and a Ford F-150 with its footprint of 65–75 sq ft has a fuel economy target of 22 miles per US gallon.
We already know how to address this, we just won't.
posted by Ickster at 9:11 AM on June 25 [19 favorites]
One of the VW dealers tried pushing me to buy a VW Taos instead of a GTI when I said it was disappointing that Golfs weren't available anymore because that was their "Golf replacement." I can't imagine someone who loves VW Golfs and has driven them for decades and came in looking for one cross-shopping an SUV. We bought our car from a different dealer who didn't try pushing an SUV on us.
posted by fimbulvetr at 9:12 AM on June 25 [5 favorites]
posted by fimbulvetr at 9:12 AM on June 25 [5 favorites]
Vox published their version of this article a couple months ago: The reckless policies that helped fill our streets with ridiculously large cars.
posted by Rash at 9:20 AM on June 25 [15 favorites]
posted by Rash at 9:20 AM on June 25 [15 favorites]
Weight-based taxation would certainly fund upgrading the roadway barriers around the country to not be tissue paper when confronted by a 3-ton electric SUV with cupholders.
posted by Callisto Prime at 9:24 AM on June 25 [5 favorites]
posted by Callisto Prime at 9:24 AM on June 25 [5 favorites]
I’m pretty tall and old, but I remember when you could easily look down into a truck bed with the tailgate closed. And WTF is up with the super tall vertical grilles? Surely that’s not practical or aerodynamic. If a 6’1” person is looking them in the eye or close to it, something is really wrong. Most of the big SUVs are just as bad, plus something like an Escalade screams “tacky gold toilet” to me. Weird that people aspire to that shit.
posted by caviar2d2 at 9:27 AM on June 25 [19 favorites]
posted by caviar2d2 at 9:27 AM on June 25 [19 favorites]
The parking in our condo is underneath the units, so the parking spaces are sized for 1990-size vehicles and cannot be changed. It's not uncommon for families to show up with two of these giant pickup trucks and be surprised that they can't fit.
I sometimes fantasize about moving to one of those golf-cart islands but then I see those slowly getting bigger too
posted by credulous at 9:27 AM on June 25 [6 favorites]
I sometimes fantasize about moving to one of those golf-cart islands but then I see those slowly getting bigger too
posted by credulous at 9:27 AM on June 25 [6 favorites]
weight-based registration would penalize hybrid and electric car ownership since they weigh more than their gas-equivalent model
Washington has higher-than-average gas taxes. To make up for EVs not contributing tax revenue for road upkeep, they have higher yearly registration fees than ICE vehicles. Age of the vehicle also accounts for registration fees; older cars pay less. But perhaps someone familiar with how the assessment is made here would know if vehicle weight is a factor.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 9:35 AM on June 25 [1 favorite]
Washington has higher-than-average gas taxes. To make up for EVs not contributing tax revenue for road upkeep, they have higher yearly registration fees than ICE vehicles. Age of the vehicle also accounts for registration fees; older cars pay less. But perhaps someone familiar with how the assessment is made here would know if vehicle weight is a factor.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 9:35 AM on June 25 [1 favorite]
And WTF is up with the super tall vertical grilles?
Most of it is obnoxious, aggressive design choices, but there is also an element of needing a lot of airflow over huge radiators to cool the massive engines in these things. Part of the standard test for towing weight capacity is cooling capability. And tow weight capacity is probably a major selling point (even though most people use their trucks/SUVs to two something once a year, if that.) But it's something that sounds impressive on the commercials!
This is not me excusing it at all; 5 years ago when I was replacing my Mazda3 hatchback, I lamented the lack of options for affordable 4-door hatchbacks on an actual sedan chassis. As a cyclist and pedestrian I refused to even get a "small" SUV due entirely to not wanting a taller front end that could be more deadly to people should I get into a collision involving someone not in a car. (Add me to the list of those who ended up with a Subaru Impreza.)
posted by misskaz at 9:48 AM on June 25 [9 favorites]
Most of it is obnoxious, aggressive design choices, but there is also an element of needing a lot of airflow over huge radiators to cool the massive engines in these things. Part of the standard test for towing weight capacity is cooling capability. And tow weight capacity is probably a major selling point (even though most people use their trucks/SUVs to two something once a year, if that.) But it's something that sounds impressive on the commercials!
This is not me excusing it at all; 5 years ago when I was replacing my Mazda3 hatchback, I lamented the lack of options for affordable 4-door hatchbacks on an actual sedan chassis. As a cyclist and pedestrian I refused to even get a "small" SUV due entirely to not wanting a taller front end that could be more deadly to people should I get into a collision involving someone not in a car. (Add me to the list of those who ended up with a Subaru Impreza.)
posted by misskaz at 9:48 AM on June 25 [9 favorites]
weight-based registration would penalize hybrid and electric car ownership since they weigh more than their gas-equivalent model.
Weight based registration only applies only to vehicles that are equipped exclusively with internal combustion engines and/or vehicles whose frame exceeds $$height which separates sedans from pickup trucks and SUVs$$
Yeah I dunno, most electric vehicles are also excessively big and heavy. All that material has to come out of the ground somewhere, and better that it go into batteries for electric bikes or some of those novelty electric microcars.
The car market is totally absurd right now, such dissonance when we all know that climate change is imminent and we're contributing to it. In Europe at least where I live you can still get a little wagon or hatchback if you need that, but when I'm in the States it astounds me the scale of the trucks now. I had a little '77 Datsun King Cab back in high-school to run my own little business with. Tools behind the seat, nice long bed with a hatchback just over the knees. It got 28 mpg, and I would hazard to guess there hasn't been a truck since that got that kind of mileage.
posted by St. Oops at 9:57 AM on June 25 [11 favorites]
Weight based registration only applies only to vehicles that are equipped exclusively with internal combustion engines and/or vehicles whose frame exceeds $$height which separates sedans from pickup trucks and SUVs$$
Yeah I dunno, most electric vehicles are also excessively big and heavy. All that material has to come out of the ground somewhere, and better that it go into batteries for electric bikes or some of those novelty electric microcars.
The car market is totally absurd right now, such dissonance when we all know that climate change is imminent and we're contributing to it. In Europe at least where I live you can still get a little wagon or hatchback if you need that, but when I'm in the States it astounds me the scale of the trucks now. I had a little '77 Datsun King Cab back in high-school to run my own little business with. Tools behind the seat, nice long bed with a hatchback just over the knees. It got 28 mpg, and I would hazard to guess there hasn't been a truck since that got that kind of mileage.
posted by St. Oops at 9:57 AM on June 25 [11 favorites]
I just went through this last year. I wanted to get a small pickup truck for weekly use in hauling around furniture pieces, gardening supplies, project materials and towing a small camper so I can go camping again without wrecking my back (still looking for that one).
I definitely didn't want any of sort of monster truck. No super duper duty cab, a normal bed length, reasonable height and a relatively efficient engine and nothing on the last half of its life. You would have thought I was asking for the moon with how hard that search was. Finally found a decent deal on a 4 banger Tacoma with jump seats and a full bed from '22 with less than 15k miles on it, but it was months and months and months of searching and even still the 22 Tacoma is taller than I want because Toyota went and lifted them because of the market.
posted by drewbage1847 at 9:57 AM on June 25 [7 favorites]
I definitely didn't want any of sort of monster truck. No super duper duty cab, a normal bed length, reasonable height and a relatively efficient engine and nothing on the last half of its life. You would have thought I was asking for the moon with how hard that search was. Finally found a decent deal on a 4 banger Tacoma with jump seats and a full bed from '22 with less than 15k miles on it, but it was months and months and months of searching and even still the 22 Tacoma is taller than I want because Toyota went and lifted them because of the market.
posted by drewbage1847 at 9:57 AM on June 25 [7 favorites]
It got 28 mpg, and I would hazard to guess there hasn't been a truck since that got that kind of mileage.
The F150 Lightning more than doubles that mileage. Internal combustion is really inefficient.
posted by rhamphorhynchus at 10:10 AM on June 25 [5 favorites]
The F150 Lightning more than doubles that mileage. Internal combustion is really inefficient.
posted by rhamphorhynchus at 10:10 AM on June 25 [5 favorites]
I often joke with Mr. Kouti that the reason we were able to buy our house was because the garage was too small for "modern" cars, so fewer people bid on it. Said garage is narrow enough that if Mr. Kouti pulls our early 2000s Camry into it and allows his skinny self enough room on the driver's side to open the door and slide out, I cannot open the door on the passenger side wide enough for me to get out, so when we're going somewhere in the car, he pulls out onto the street so that I can get in. And it's short enough that an SUV or "light truck" would probably scrape the ceiling. Perfectly happy to stick with our sedan!
It reminds me of going anywhere from my grandparents' house - to go to church on Sunday, Grandpa Kouti would start the car (an ancient beige Oldsmobile Cutlass) in the garage, then pull it out to the driveway so the rest of us could actually get into said car. I just looked at the street view for that house, and sure enough, whoever's living there has a freakin' Bronco parked in the driveway. No way could that fit in the garage where the Olds used to live; I'm certain that garage has been repurposed as a storage locker. And that house is 40 years newer than the house Mr. Kouti and I bought!
We are hoping that with our driving habits, we only need to buy one more car in our lifetimes, and that it can be an electric or hybrid sedan similar to our existing ICE Camry, but we're not optimistic that'll be an option when we finally have to make the switch. One would think if nothing else, the vehicle property crime rate in California would be enough market incentive for people to say "my car needs to be small enough to fit in my goddamn garage."
posted by Pandora Kouti at 10:18 AM on June 25 [11 favorites]
It reminds me of going anywhere from my grandparents' house - to go to church on Sunday, Grandpa Kouti would start the car (an ancient beige Oldsmobile Cutlass) in the garage, then pull it out to the driveway so the rest of us could actually get into said car. I just looked at the street view for that house, and sure enough, whoever's living there has a freakin' Bronco parked in the driveway. No way could that fit in the garage where the Olds used to live; I'm certain that garage has been repurposed as a storage locker. And that house is 40 years newer than the house Mr. Kouti and I bought!
We are hoping that with our driving habits, we only need to buy one more car in our lifetimes, and that it can be an electric or hybrid sedan similar to our existing ICE Camry, but we're not optimistic that'll be an option when we finally have to make the switch. One would think if nothing else, the vehicle property crime rate in California would be enough market incentive for people to say "my car needs to be small enough to fit in my goddamn garage."
posted by Pandora Kouti at 10:18 AM on June 25 [11 favorites]
"maybe you should need to be at least thirty before you can drive anything over a certain size. There are so many overBIG vehicles on the road these days, I only tend to notice them when they're doing something stupid. And in these cases, it's almost always someone I'd categorize as "young"
I dunno about this, I mostly see middle aged to late middle aged white dudes (I am one of those) driving these nightmares out here in San Diego. YMMV.
posted by WatTylerJr at 10:25 AM on June 25 [10 favorites]
I dunno about this, I mostly see middle aged to late middle aged white dudes (I am one of those) driving these nightmares out here in San Diego. YMMV.
posted by WatTylerJr at 10:25 AM on June 25 [10 favorites]
yeah but if we could have got to them when they were young ...
posted by philip-random at 10:32 AM on June 25 [1 favorite]
posted by philip-random at 10:32 AM on June 25 [1 favorite]
There's an annual "Scrapin the Coast" event near us, which is all about low riders. But I guess the conversion is difficult or unfashionable on anything bigger than a S-10, because the majority of the participants/spectators I see on the roads are slightly-more-lifted pickup trucks. There are also a bunch of "squatted" trucks and SUVs, which have the front suspension lifted but not the rear -- these are banned in some states due to safety concerns.
I guess I'm saying pour one out for the low-rider, a vanishing breed of vehicle with better visibility, superior aerodynamics, and a more cautious driver.
posted by credulous at 10:40 AM on June 25 [6 favorites]
I guess I'm saying pour one out for the low-rider, a vanishing breed of vehicle with better visibility, superior aerodynamics, and a more cautious driver.
posted by credulous at 10:40 AM on June 25 [6 favorites]
But perhaps someone familiar with how the assessment is made here would know if vehicle weight is a factor.
Yep, Washington has a truck/weight based tax: see here (scroll down, under “other fees”).
I also ended up in a two door Tacoma after looking at the options. Wish they still made the Honda Elements or something similar.
posted by yeahwhatever at 10:46 AM on June 25 [1 favorite]
Yep, Washington has a truck/weight based tax: see here (scroll down, under “other fees”).
I also ended up in a two door Tacoma after looking at the options. Wish they still made the Honda Elements or something similar.
posted by yeahwhatever at 10:46 AM on June 25 [1 favorite]
Thanks for posting that Vox article, Rash.
Ugh - the first photo is particularly rough for me. That was my neighborhood pharmacy and that truck crashing into it was the straw that broke the camel's back for the pharmacist, who closed down permanently shortly after that. That's not even a big truck, but this is another reason why bigger vehicles are a menace. Their ability to cause more damage is eroding communities.
posted by queensissy at 10:56 AM on June 25 [3 favorites]
Ugh - the first photo is particularly rough for me. That was my neighborhood pharmacy and that truck crashing into it was the straw that broke the camel's back for the pharmacist, who closed down permanently shortly after that. That's not even a big truck, but this is another reason why bigger vehicles are a menace. Their ability to cause more damage is eroding communities.
posted by queensissy at 10:56 AM on June 25 [3 favorites]
I can't imagine someone who loves VW Golfs and has driven them for decades and came in looking for one cross-shopping an SUV
I just wish they'd bring their non-SUV EV/PHEV models to the North American market... I'm not looking at replacing my '18 Sportwagon anytime soon but I'd jump to a ID3, ID7 or Passat PHEV if they were available in the NA market. (Volkswagen -- I want to give you my money.)
posted by nathan_teske at 11:07 AM on June 25 [4 favorites]
I just wish they'd bring their non-SUV EV/PHEV models to the North American market... I'm not looking at replacing my '18 Sportwagon anytime soon but I'd jump to a ID3, ID7 or Passat PHEV if they were available in the NA market. (Volkswagen -- I want to give you my money.)
posted by nathan_teske at 11:07 AM on June 25 [4 favorites]
Age of the vehicle also accounts for registration fees; older cars pay less.
In Japan you never see old cars in traffic because in that country, owners of older cars must pay more, every year, for their registration.
posted by Rash at 11:20 AM on June 25 [3 favorites]
In Japan you never see old cars in traffic because in that country, owners of older cars must pay more, every year, for their registration.
posted by Rash at 11:20 AM on June 25 [3 favorites]
weight-based registration would penalize hybrid and electric car ownership
Eh, given that the majority of states already have explicitly higher registration costs for hybrids and electric car ownership, this would be, at worst, a perpetuation of a penalty that already exists.
posted by jackbishop at 11:24 AM on June 25 [1 favorite]
Eh, given that the majority of states already have explicitly higher registration costs for hybrids and electric car ownership, this would be, at worst, a perpetuation of a penalty that already exists.
posted by jackbishop at 11:24 AM on June 25 [1 favorite]
In Japan you never see old cars in traffic because in that country, owners of older cars must pay more, every year, for their registration.
Not disagreeing, but side note - it helps that that Japan is (I believe) the largest exporter of used cars (1m+ used cars exported annually). So those older cars are still out there...just in New Zealand, Australia, Caribbean countries etc. I miss my whacky imported Mitsubishi RVR with its one quirky sliding door I used to drive around Grand Cayman in. Great car for dog owners. You could even get replacement parts cheap if you knew the right airline staff who would bring the parts in "duty free" in their luggage.....
posted by inflatablekiwi at 11:40 AM on June 25 [3 favorites]
Not disagreeing, but side note - it helps that that Japan is (I believe) the largest exporter of used cars (1m+ used cars exported annually). So those older cars are still out there...just in New Zealand, Australia, Caribbean countries etc. I miss my whacky imported Mitsubishi RVR with its one quirky sliding door I used to drive around Grand Cayman in. Great car for dog owners. You could even get replacement parts cheap if you knew the right airline staff who would bring the parts in "duty free" in their luggage.....
posted by inflatablekiwi at 11:40 AM on June 25 [3 favorites]
I've been a little surprised that modern compact SUVs aren't that much longer than previous US hatchbacks.
If I remember correctly--my previous Honda CRV was built on the same wheelbase as a Civic, it was just raised up a bit higher and, yes, had that "SUV" shape.
My current CRV feels tiny when I park next to a Ford or Dodge monster truck-a-saurus, like with a sturdy ramp I could drive it right up into the bed and piggyback a ride.
posted by gimonca at 11:46 AM on June 25 [1 favorite]
If I remember correctly--my previous Honda CRV was built on the same wheelbase as a Civic, it was just raised up a bit higher and, yes, had that "SUV" shape.
My current CRV feels tiny when I park next to a Ford or Dodge monster truck-a-saurus, like with a sturdy ramp I could drive it right up into the bed and piggyback a ride.
posted by gimonca at 11:46 AM on June 25 [1 favorite]
Likewise the Honda HRV isn't that much bigger than the Honda Fit but the HRV's slightly larger size is almost entirely taken up by the SUVness of it's shape. It's like they made the Fit a little bigger and gave it a less efficient engine just so the exterior could look like an SUV. You could've had a functionally better car with the Fit but instead you have the slightly shittier HRV because everything in the US has to look like a goddamned SUV.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 12:07 PM on June 25 [8 favorites]
posted by RonButNotStupid at 12:07 PM on June 25 [8 favorites]
Driving a sedan involves perpetually feeling like my window's not quite tall enough when I go through the drive-thru, or get a parking ticket in the parking garage, or when I try to see over a row of parked cars to figure out whether I can safely make a right turn. I'm not at all worried about safety in terms of wanting a larger or heavier car - but I do feel like those extra couple of inches might make quite a bit of difference.
posted by Jeanne at 12:14 PM on June 25 [2 favorites]
posted by Jeanne at 12:14 PM on June 25 [2 favorites]
See also: These Stupid Trucks Are Literally Killing Us by Not Just Bikes.
I like my lil' Kia Sportage. It's got room for 4, it hauls my kayaks and gear easily, and it's capable enough and has enough ground clearance that I can still get into the little-known launches and trailheads I love. It's great in the snow. I sit mostly upright, which is so much better for my back. It's a 2010, and I hope nothing ever happens to it, because the way things are going, I don't think I'll ever find something as small, nimble, and affordable as this. :(
posted by xedrik at 12:18 PM on June 25 [4 favorites]
I like my lil' Kia Sportage. It's got room for 4, it hauls my kayaks and gear easily, and it's capable enough and has enough ground clearance that I can still get into the little-known launches and trailheads I love. It's great in the snow. I sit mostly upright, which is so much better for my back. It's a 2010, and I hope nothing ever happens to it, because the way things are going, I don't think I'll ever find something as small, nimble, and affordable as this. :(
posted by xedrik at 12:18 PM on June 25 [4 favorites]
The Glee Gal has back/leg issues so we ended up replacing our Civic with a Honda HR-V, which is based on the Accord frame. It's tall enough that it's easy to get in and out of, and has enough room in the back that it doesn't feel cramped when we drive with the kid or my parents without being freakin' huge. It also fits in the garage next to the kid's Civic (We like them.) with plenty of room to get in and out of either car.
Trucks have been huge for a while now. I remember getting out of my Saturn 20 years ago, and the hood of the truck next to it being higher than the roof of my car. It's just that now almost everyone's driving them.
posted by Spike Glee at 12:19 PM on June 25
Trucks have been huge for a while now. I remember getting out of my Saturn 20 years ago, and the hood of the truck next to it being higher than the roof of my car. It's just that now almost everyone's driving them.
posted by Spike Glee at 12:19 PM on June 25
As someone who has spent more than half of their driving life behind the wheel of a Mini Cooper (and much of the rest of the time in a VW Golf), I'm constantly frustrated by this. Even the little cars keep getting bigger. I don't need that!
In our area (even progressive Vermont) there is significant talk of adding a registration surcharge to electric vehicles because they freeload on the highways by not paying a gas tax. So, I'm all for weight based registration fees, and I think they should follow the same fourth power law as well. A Nissan Leaf has a curb weight of 3,500-3,900 pounds (even a tiny Mini Cooper is just over 3,000). It's not mandatory for electric vehicles to be as heavy as tanks. And, if you can really afford a 7,100 pound Rivian, you can afford to pay a registration fee on that as well. Admittedly, it would be politically tough to make the registration fees for the two 27.5x different (say $20 for a Mini, and $550 for a Rivian annually), but that's an accurate reflection of the wear and tear - unless we also want to factor in annual mileage which would be a lot harder to administer.
posted by meinvt at 12:19 PM on June 25 [4 favorites]
In our area (even progressive Vermont) there is significant talk of adding a registration surcharge to electric vehicles because they freeload on the highways by not paying a gas tax. So, I'm all for weight based registration fees, and I think they should follow the same fourth power law as well. A Nissan Leaf has a curb weight of 3,500-3,900 pounds (even a tiny Mini Cooper is just over 3,000). It's not mandatory for electric vehicles to be as heavy as tanks. And, if you can really afford a 7,100 pound Rivian, you can afford to pay a registration fee on that as well. Admittedly, it would be politically tough to make the registration fees for the two 27.5x different (say $20 for a Mini, and $550 for a Rivian annually), but that's an accurate reflection of the wear and tear - unless we also want to factor in annual mileage which would be a lot harder to administer.
posted by meinvt at 12:19 PM on June 25 [4 favorites]
Driving a sedan involves perpetually feeling like my window's not quite tall enough when I go through the drive-thru
my please sir I want some more lookin ass as I reach hungrily up to the fine hero sitting a foot above my head a the taco bell drive through
posted by phunniemee at 12:25 PM on June 25 [9 favorites]
my please sir I want some more lookin ass as I reach hungrily up to the fine hero sitting a foot above my head a the taco bell drive through
posted by phunniemee at 12:25 PM on June 25 [9 favorites]
Driving a sedan involves perpetually feeling like my window's not quite tall enough when I go through the drive-thru, or get a parking ticket in the parking garage
That's because both of those things have been made higher in order to accommodate taller SUVs and trucks!
My local post office just replaced their drive-by mailbox. It used to be at a comfortable height for me to open my window and drop mail into it. Now the slot is a full 12" higher so people in larger vehicles don't have to lean down. Now I can't reach it unless I get out of my car.
but I do feel like those extra couple of inches might make quite a bit of difference.
Yes, but only because they stole those extra couple of inches from you in the first place.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 12:26 PM on June 25 [8 favorites]
That's because both of those things have been made higher in order to accommodate taller SUVs and trucks!
My local post office just replaced their drive-by mailbox. It used to be at a comfortable height for me to open my window and drop mail into it. Now the slot is a full 12" higher so people in larger vehicles don't have to lean down. Now I can't reach it unless I get out of my car.
but I do feel like those extra couple of inches might make quite a bit of difference.
Yes, but only because they stole those extra couple of inches from you in the first place.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 12:26 PM on June 25 [8 favorites]
Okay, maybe a dumb question, but how does the "they want the (big ass behemoth) so they can tow their boat to the lake a couple times a year" even make sense? People had boats before these mammoth trucks, and somehow managed to tow them to the lake. Even if we're talking builders using them for work, somehow people managed to build before these mammoth trucks. The bed isn't any larger either, right? The ones I see driving around look like they would have trouble fitting a sheet of plywood...
posted by queensissy at 12:47 PM on June 25 [6 favorites]
posted by queensissy at 12:47 PM on June 25 [6 favorites]
People had boats before these mammoth trucks, and somehow managed to tow them to the lake.
Trailerable boats have gotten larger, too. You need a big pickup truck if you want to get that 26' Clorox Bottle which sleeps six and has triple 100HP outboard motors up to the lake for the weekend.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 12:50 PM on June 25 [3 favorites]
Trailerable boats have gotten larger, too. You need a big pickup truck if you want to get that 26' Clorox Bottle which sleeps six and has triple 100HP outboard motors up to the lake for the weekend.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 12:50 PM on June 25 [3 favorites]
Queensissy, I feel ya'!
I used to tow my two-horse trailer with a 6-cylinder 3/4 ton Chevy in the nineties. Did just fine, always got to where I needed to be safely. Slower on the hills, but when I'm taking my horse out for enjoyment, I didn't/don't need to get there at a more than enjoyable speed. Towing a load is harder on smaller engine, so it only lasted 23 years!
It was almost ludicrously small compared to my 'new' 2004 V-8 diesel Silverado 1ton, which is so much smaller than today's behemoths. The Silverado is going to have to be replaced because of high milage and injector issues. I just want a gas engine truck the same size as my old 6-cylinder Chevy! Never mind that everything is so expensive, it's all too dang big to get into and maneuver.
Ol' Green was the perfect size! I still have the same 2-horse trailer--it's something like my grandfather's sword, new paint, extra reinforcement on the underframe, new floorboards and saddle rack, but same size and weight. Fits my horses, easy to back and juggle around.
The big issue with towing a horse trailer isn't the pulling part, it's having enough weight for stop and control. With the old truck, good trailer brakes and sensible speeds were the deciding factor in safety. Doing 85 in my Mitsubishi on I84 the other day, I was passed by a 40-foot 5 horse LQ towed by a honkin' big F350 dually crew. Easily 60+ feet passing me like I was standing still. I'm pretty sure I could have stopped my old rig in 1/4 of the distance that leviathan needs to stop at even legal speed.
posted by BlueHorse at 12:57 PM on June 25 [4 favorites]
I used to tow my two-horse trailer with a 6-cylinder 3/4 ton Chevy in the nineties. Did just fine, always got to where I needed to be safely. Slower on the hills, but when I'm taking my horse out for enjoyment, I didn't/don't need to get there at a more than enjoyable speed. Towing a load is harder on smaller engine, so it only lasted 23 years!
It was almost ludicrously small compared to my 'new' 2004 V-8 diesel Silverado 1ton, which is so much smaller than today's behemoths. The Silverado is going to have to be replaced because of high milage and injector issues. I just want a gas engine truck the same size as my old 6-cylinder Chevy! Never mind that everything is so expensive, it's all too dang big to get into and maneuver.
Ol' Green was the perfect size! I still have the same 2-horse trailer--it's something like my grandfather's sword, new paint, extra reinforcement on the underframe, new floorboards and saddle rack, but same size and weight. Fits my horses, easy to back and juggle around.
The big issue with towing a horse trailer isn't the pulling part, it's having enough weight for stop and control. With the old truck, good trailer brakes and sensible speeds were the deciding factor in safety. Doing 85 in my Mitsubishi on I84 the other day, I was passed by a 40-foot 5 horse LQ towed by a honkin' big F350 dually crew. Easily 60+ feet passing me like I was standing still. I'm pretty sure I could have stopped my old rig in 1/4 of the distance that leviathan needs to stop at even legal speed.
posted by BlueHorse at 12:57 PM on June 25 [4 favorites]
If people rented trucks when they actually needed trucks to do what they want to do -- one or two weekends a year? never? -- trucks might make sense.
posted by pracowity at 12:58 PM on June 25 [6 favorites]
posted by pracowity at 12:58 PM on June 25 [6 favorites]
The giant tow vehicle leading to bigger boat back to needing an even bigger tow vehicle which in turn permits and even greater embiggening of boat size cycle has made the lakes and river at my family's boat-access only cottage hazardous for small boats and canoes and has caused extensive shoreline erosion. When my grandfather and great-uncle built the place, everyone had cargo canoes or small wooden or aluminum boats with at most a 25 - 35 hp motor on them. Now everyone has giant pontoon boats, massive fiberglass speedboats, or oversized fishing boats. Most of the tiny old wooden cottages like ours are also long gone, replaced by giant country houses. I mostly use a 19" cargo canoe with a 5hp motor, although we also have a tiny 1950s aluminum speedboat that gets hauled out occasionally.
The wakes from all the giant boats have left the reed beds along the shorelines a sad ghost of what they were in the past. The small sandy beaches that used be be in areas between the granite rocks of the Canadian shield that I loved playing on as a child are long gone from everywhere but the most protected bays. This has led to a change in the river ecology, with a lot of the animals, plants and fish we saw decades ago being gone.
The giant modern boats also tower over my cargo canoe, so I have to keep a constant eye out from fear of being stuck by one of them speeding through. It can be pretty nerve-wracking on a busy weekend in some stretches of the river.
posted by fimbulvetr at 1:10 PM on June 25 [15 favorites]
The wakes from all the giant boats have left the reed beds along the shorelines a sad ghost of what they were in the past. The small sandy beaches that used be be in areas between the granite rocks of the Canadian shield that I loved playing on as a child are long gone from everywhere but the most protected bays. This has led to a change in the river ecology, with a lot of the animals, plants and fish we saw decades ago being gone.
The giant modern boats also tower over my cargo canoe, so I have to keep a constant eye out from fear of being stuck by one of them speeding through. It can be pretty nerve-wracking on a busy weekend in some stretches of the river.
posted by fimbulvetr at 1:10 PM on June 25 [15 favorites]
So much of this could be fixed with the right regulatory frameworks. Get rid of the write-off for heavy trucks. Raise taxes on gasoline. Raise them more on diesel. Require real minimum fleet efficiency and not a sliding scale. Tax vehicles based on weight (preferably miles driven too, but conservative politicians would have a field day with the "they want to track you wherever you drive!" rhetoric even if it's just a required annual odometer check). Limit front heights, which both increases pedestrian safety and improves aerodynamics.
Of course we'll get none of those changes, but it's not like we don't already know the value of literally all of them. We can't even get congestion pricing in NYC where all the changes to make the law work have already happened.
posted by fedward at 1:20 PM on June 25 [8 favorites]
Of course we'll get none of those changes, but it's not like we don't already know the value of literally all of them. We can't even get congestion pricing in NYC where all the changes to make the law work have already happened.
posted by fedward at 1:20 PM on June 25 [8 favorites]
For a bit of perspective, my cargo canoe, that I use to haul my family of four and all our stuff back and forth from my cottage -- I have even hauled lumber in it to build decks and docks -- is smaller than a single pontoon on many of the pontoon boats on the water.
posted by fimbulvetr at 1:29 PM on June 25 [3 favorites]
posted by fimbulvetr at 1:29 PM on June 25 [3 favorites]
LGM did a related post about this. If my memory serves, the conclusion was about 3 planes worth of people, per month, were dying unnecessarily due in large part to these vehicles.
posted by LegallyBread at 1:51 PM on June 25 [2 favorites]
posted by LegallyBread at 1:51 PM on June 25 [2 favorites]
Safety issues aside, I remain bewildered that anyone wants to pay for the gas for these things. My Honda Fit has an 8 gallon tank.
posted by rhymedirective at 1:55 PM on June 25 [7 favorites]
posted by rhymedirective at 1:55 PM on June 25 [7 favorites]
Okay, maybe a dumb question, but how does the "they want the (big ass behemoth) so they can tow their boat to the lake a couple times a year" even make sense? People had boats before these mammoth trucks, and somehow managed to tow them to the lake. Even if we're talking builders using them for work, somehow people managed to build before these mammoth trucks. The bed isn't any larger either, right? The ones I see driving around look like they would have trouble fitting a sheet of plywood...
Some of this (here in Australia anyway) is caused by more regulatory focus on making sure vehicles are capable of safely towing and carrying things. There are roving bands of regulators pulling over and weighing car/caravan rigs to make sure they're within the limits of the vehicle. Sure, people used to tow their 26' caravan around with their family sedan, but they did so at huge risk and bottlenecked the highways. Sure, builders used to pile five tons of building materials in the back of their sedan-based utes (trucks to those in the US, similar to an ElCamino or Ranchero), but only by discarding even a casual nod to safety.
Of course, caravans and boats have themselves become larger and heavier. Again, lessons learned about overloading towed vehicles and the risk of accidents. Plus, modern, efficient, clean-burning 4-stroke outboard motors are far, far heavier than their slim oil-burning predecessors, requiring heavier boats to support them and heavier trailers to carry them. That's just the stuff that happens on the road - don't get me started about those massive wake boats that destroy rivers and lakes and make life a misery for anyone in a normal vessel.
I hate the size of these oversized vehicles that seem to be the norm in the US. They're still pretty rare here - a positive result of US auto companies refusing to build right-hand-drive cars. But cars generally have got much bigger here, even 'compact' cars. There's even talk about changing the national standards for parking spaces because so many people have trouble fitting their cars in the spaces at shopping centres etc.
For all the talk of safety, though, the inescapable fact is that bigger anything is more profitable for the builders. Bigger house = more profit to the builder and the same goes for anything you can name. We live in the houses developers tell us we need, we drive the cars auto companies tell us we need and we all get sucked into this endless cycle of more, more, more. I hope one day we can realise that bigger is not better, it's just bigger.
posted by dg at 2:03 PM on June 25 [5 favorites]
Some of this (here in Australia anyway) is caused by more regulatory focus on making sure vehicles are capable of safely towing and carrying things. There are roving bands of regulators pulling over and weighing car/caravan rigs to make sure they're within the limits of the vehicle. Sure, people used to tow their 26' caravan around with their family sedan, but they did so at huge risk and bottlenecked the highways. Sure, builders used to pile five tons of building materials in the back of their sedan-based utes (trucks to those in the US, similar to an ElCamino or Ranchero), but only by discarding even a casual nod to safety.
Of course, caravans and boats have themselves become larger and heavier. Again, lessons learned about overloading towed vehicles and the risk of accidents. Plus, modern, efficient, clean-burning 4-stroke outboard motors are far, far heavier than their slim oil-burning predecessors, requiring heavier boats to support them and heavier trailers to carry them. That's just the stuff that happens on the road - don't get me started about those massive wake boats that destroy rivers and lakes and make life a misery for anyone in a normal vessel.
I hate the size of these oversized vehicles that seem to be the norm in the US. They're still pretty rare here - a positive result of US auto companies refusing to build right-hand-drive cars. But cars generally have got much bigger here, even 'compact' cars. There's even talk about changing the national standards for parking spaces because so many people have trouble fitting their cars in the spaces at shopping centres etc.
For all the talk of safety, though, the inescapable fact is that bigger anything is more profitable for the builders. Bigger house = more profit to the builder and the same goes for anything you can name. We live in the houses developers tell us we need, we drive the cars auto companies tell us we need and we all get sucked into this endless cycle of more, more, more. I hope one day we can realise that bigger is not better, it's just bigger.
posted by dg at 2:03 PM on June 25 [5 favorites]
IMO, this article misses a whole bunch of factors, while not being hard enough on the stupid CAFE rules in the US. It misses that the Ford F150 pickup became the best selling vehicle in the US in 1980, and has been since. That's when the shift occurred.
It missed that US car manufacturers sandbagged fuel efficiency from about 1965-2010, such that a modern SUV is equally as efficient as a midsized car used to be.
It touches on that US car manufacturers sandbagged making nice small cars. Cars were small and cheap or bigger and luxurious, not small and luxurious.
It misses that fuel costs have been dwarfed by other costs of ownership, but people don't care because:
cars have become a strong conveyance of social class in the US, so most people don't care if they are more expensive as long as they are also getting better.
Fuel costs are a political point more than a factor of people's actual household budgets.
Knee & hip replacements and older age driving has become more common -meeting the needs of an aging population with higher in-vehicle entry points.
Wider, highway sized lanes in cities due to misguided standardization, allowing wider vehicles. SUVs used to be tall and narrow, which increased rollover risk.
Plus all the other stuff that prioritizes cars over other forms of transit.
posted by The_Vegetables at 2:17 PM on June 25 [1 favorite]
It missed that US car manufacturers sandbagged fuel efficiency from about 1965-2010, such that a modern SUV is equally as efficient as a midsized car used to be.
It touches on that US car manufacturers sandbagged making nice small cars. Cars were small and cheap or bigger and luxurious, not small and luxurious.
It misses that fuel costs have been dwarfed by other costs of ownership, but people don't care because:
cars have become a strong conveyance of social class in the US, so most people don't care if they are more expensive as long as they are also getting better.
Fuel costs are a political point more than a factor of people's actual household budgets.
Knee & hip replacements and older age driving has become more common -meeting the needs of an aging population with higher in-vehicle entry points.
Wider, highway sized lanes in cities due to misguided standardization, allowing wider vehicles. SUVs used to be tall and narrow, which increased rollover risk.
Plus all the other stuff that prioritizes cars over other forms of transit.
posted by The_Vegetables at 2:17 PM on June 25 [1 favorite]
I'm confused, are you saying it's easier to get into a higher vehicle with hip problems?
(My elderly and short mom has a sedan now, but I spent years watching her have to jump into SUVs.)
posted by tofu_crouton at 2:35 PM on June 25 [3 favorites]
(My elderly and short mom has a sedan now, but I spent years watching her have to jump into SUVs.)
posted by tofu_crouton at 2:35 PM on June 25 [3 favorites]
IMO, this article misses a whole bunch of factors, while not being hard enough on the stupid CAFE rules in the US. It misses that the Ford F150 pickup became the best selling vehicle in the US in 1980, and has been since. That's when the shift occurred.
Yes well, this is Canadian Broadcast Network article, so it might be coming from the focus of a Canadian consumer, not a a US one. I encourage you to make that post if you want it to focus on the US market.
posted by Kitteh at 2:38 PM on June 25 [12 favorites]
Yes well, this is Canadian Broadcast Network article, so it might be coming from the focus of a Canadian consumer, not a a US one. I encourage you to make that post if you want it to focus on the US market.
posted by Kitteh at 2:38 PM on June 25 [12 favorites]
My wife and I run a B&B (NOT an AirB&B) on an island Lighthouse on San Francisco Bay. We have up to 48 guests a week. Every Monday & Wednesday, we shop for dinner and breakfast for those guests. We have a Jeep Grand Cherokee, and we use EVERY inch of the cargo space when shopping. Seriously, sometimes I have to forego ingredients because they just won't fit (did I mention laundry? we also have to haul laundry with the groceries on and off the island in a tiny aluminum boat).
I love that Jeep. And my wife (who is tiny) loves it too, because she can see in traffic (she does jack the seat all the way up, which I can't see makes all that much difference except I hit my head on the doorjamb).
Anyway, it's not a small SUV, but in a parking lot? You slide in next to one of those monster trucks with The Punisher logo on the hood, and trying to back out, you STILL can't see what's going on.
I guess my point is, the only reason we have the damned thing is because we use it for what it was intended. It's truly a work truck. We're looking at hybrids (no plug-ins at the harbor where we park). But I can't find anything with the same cargo space. Maybe next year.
posted by valkane at 2:43 PM on June 25 [8 favorites]
I love that Jeep. And my wife (who is tiny) loves it too, because she can see in traffic (she does jack the seat all the way up, which I can't see makes all that much difference except I hit my head on the doorjamb).
Anyway, it's not a small SUV, but in a parking lot? You slide in next to one of those monster trucks with The Punisher logo on the hood, and trying to back out, you STILL can't see what's going on.
I guess my point is, the only reason we have the damned thing is because we use it for what it was intended. It's truly a work truck. We're looking at hybrids (no plug-ins at the harbor where we park). But I can't find anything with the same cargo space. Maybe next year.
posted by valkane at 2:43 PM on June 25 [8 favorites]
My Honda Fit has an 8 gallon tank.
This just reminded me of a conversation I inserted myself into in high school. Some boys were showing off bragging and comparing the sizes of the gas tanks on their trucks, the boy with the largest gas tank reigning supreme. I wish this were a euphemism but nope the conversation really was that stupid.
So being me I butted in and said why do any of you care how big your gas tank is? The car with the best gas mileage is going to get you farther.
They looked at me like I was the idiot.
posted by phunniemee at 2:59 PM on June 25 [3 favorites]
This just reminded me of a conversation I inserted myself into in high school. Some boys were showing off bragging and comparing the sizes of the gas tanks on their trucks, the boy with the largest gas tank reigning supreme. I wish this were a euphemism but nope the conversation really was that stupid.
So being me I butted in and said why do any of you care how big your gas tank is? The car with the best gas mileage is going to get you farther.
They looked at me like I was the idiot.
posted by phunniemee at 2:59 PM on June 25 [3 favorites]
I'm confused, are you saying it's easier to get into a higher vehicle with hip problems?
If it's not so tall that you have to climb into it, then yes. My wife and mom both find it easier to get into our (smaller) SUV than our car or theirs.
posted by Spike Glee at 3:04 PM on June 25 [3 favorites]
If it's not so tall that you have to climb into it, then yes. My wife and mom both find it easier to get into our (smaller) SUV than our car or theirs.
posted by Spike Glee at 3:04 PM on June 25 [3 favorites]
I think I have permanent brain damage from how many times I conked my head transitioning from the RAV4 to the lower car.
posted by phunniemee at 3:08 PM on June 25
posted by phunniemee at 3:08 PM on June 25
Wait till you find out that people spend money to make quiet cars sound loud and broken (to me). I hear ‘em racing up and down the highway at night.
posted by caviar2d2 at 3:33 PM on June 25 [1 favorite]
posted by caviar2d2 at 3:33 PM on June 25 [1 favorite]
Yes well, this is Canadian Broadcast Network article, so it might be coming from the focus of a Canadian consumer, not a a US one.
Unfortunately Canada, due to it's smaller market size and proximity to the US, gets drug along with the US market, so the issues are pretty similar.
Germany, for example, less so.
posted by The_Vegetables at 3:48 PM on June 25
Unfortunately Canada, due to it's smaller market size and proximity to the US, gets drug along with the US market, so the issues are pretty similar.
Germany, for example, less so.
posted by The_Vegetables at 3:48 PM on June 25
Understood, but we still are our own country and it is not a slight if the Canadian focused article doesn't bring up your particular bugbear. You know, as Canadians also have feelings about not being able to buy compacts or sedans.
posted by Kitteh at 4:11 PM on June 25 [7 favorites]
posted by Kitteh at 4:11 PM on June 25 [7 favorites]
Bring back hatchbacks!
Wife and I shared a single sedan (BMW320i... base model, nothing fancy) for years and years. Job situation changed and we needed to get a second car, something we have never had in 30 years and I wanted to avoid. We ended up buying a used BMW X1. It's their smallest, most basic SUV. The length of the thing is actually shorter than the sedan! Why an SUV?
Because with a sedan, we used the two back seats maybe a total of three or four times a year. We don't have kids and we don't drive friends around (I guess). So we felt like we were driving all this wasted space. Several times a year, maybe even 10 times a year, we need to move something big, or put our bikes in the vehicle. The X1 can do that. It's not really much bigger than the sedan, it's just shaped differently, the rear seats can fold down, and you can carry a lot of stuff when you need to.
posted by SoberHighland at 5:20 PM on June 25 [3 favorites]
Wife and I shared a single sedan (BMW320i... base model, nothing fancy) for years and years. Job situation changed and we needed to get a second car, something we have never had in 30 years and I wanted to avoid. We ended up buying a used BMW X1. It's their smallest, most basic SUV. The length of the thing is actually shorter than the sedan! Why an SUV?
Because with a sedan, we used the two back seats maybe a total of three or four times a year. We don't have kids and we don't drive friends around (I guess). So we felt like we were driving all this wasted space. Several times a year, maybe even 10 times a year, we need to move something big, or put our bikes in the vehicle. The X1 can do that. It's not really much bigger than the sedan, it's just shaped differently, the rear seats can fold down, and you can carry a lot of stuff when you need to.
posted by SoberHighland at 5:20 PM on June 25 [3 favorites]
Kia makes a wee sedan hatchback. Its a pretty great car, for a car, with a gas engine. I just moved a shitload of stuff with. It’s the standard offering of the carshare.
posted by seanmpuckett at 6:05 PM on June 25 [2 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 6:05 PM on June 25 [2 favorites]
Bring back hatchbacks!
GTI, Civic, Prius, Mazda 3, Impreza, Rio, Corolla, Mini, Bolt, Leaf, Mirage are all out there and more or less normal-car priced. If you wanna spend more you can get a Golf R, Civic type R, GR Corolla, and I think various expensive euro brands.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 6:50 PM on June 25 [2 favorites]
GTI, Civic, Prius, Mazda 3, Impreza, Rio, Corolla, Mini, Bolt, Leaf, Mirage are all out there and more or less normal-car priced. If you wanna spend more you can get a Golf R, Civic type R, GR Corolla, and I think various expensive euro brands.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 6:50 PM on June 25 [2 favorites]
Kia makes a wee sedan hatchback. Its a pretty great car, for a car, with a gas engine. I just moved a shitload of stuff with. It’s the standard offering of the carshare.
I see you, fellow Communauto member!
Yeah, the carshare cars are thankfully always hatchbacks and sedans.
posted by Kitteh at 7:29 PM on June 25 [1 favorite]
I see you, fellow Communauto member!
Yeah, the carshare cars are thankfully always hatchbacks and sedans.
posted by Kitteh at 7:29 PM on June 25 [1 favorite]
The Japan thing is shaken (pronounced shah-ken), and it's a regular check up of your car to make sure it fits the (high) standards, and the older your car gets, the more often you have to do the inspection. They aren't cheap, leading people to get rid of old cars and buy new ones simply because of the increasing cost of the inspections.
It's not entirely great, as there is a very strong "make people buy more cars to prop up the economy" component to it. On the other hand, you have a lot fewer cars on the road that don't have the latest safety features. Our car has just reached the shaken every year stage, and this year, it ran us over $1000, so we're starting to look at new cars.
And US/North American Mefites, I feel for you. The cars there are ridiculous. Every once in a while, I see a full size Toyota truck very clearly meant for the US market, and I think, fucking hell, that's ridiculous. They are becoming more common here, but we've got an NBox, and I love it. Incredible amounts of headspace, a back seat that (on the rare occasions I get to sit back there) I can fully stretch all the way out. Drop the back seat flat, and we have tons of space for storage. It is a little (square) slice of heaven, and I honestly wouldn't want to drive anything larger. I know, though, if I were to be on a street in Chicago with it, I would feel absolutely terrified of all the behemoth pickups looming over it.
posted by Ghidorah at 8:51 PM on June 25 [5 favorites]
It's not entirely great, as there is a very strong "make people buy more cars to prop up the economy" component to it. On the other hand, you have a lot fewer cars on the road that don't have the latest safety features. Our car has just reached the shaken every year stage, and this year, it ran us over $1000, so we're starting to look at new cars.
And US/North American Mefites, I feel for you. The cars there are ridiculous. Every once in a while, I see a full size Toyota truck very clearly meant for the US market, and I think, fucking hell, that's ridiculous. They are becoming more common here, but we've got an NBox, and I love it. Incredible amounts of headspace, a back seat that (on the rare occasions I get to sit back there) I can fully stretch all the way out. Drop the back seat flat, and we have tons of space for storage. It is a little (square) slice of heaven, and I honestly wouldn't want to drive anything larger. I know, though, if I were to be on a street in Chicago with it, I would feel absolutely terrified of all the behemoth pickups looming over it.
posted by Ghidorah at 8:51 PM on June 25 [5 favorites]
I recall the late 80's and 90's people used to disparage the urban 4x4 (remembers when Mitsubishi Pajero drivers were 'wankers'?) in NZ. Or that time people took the piss out of the bottles of 'mud' you could buy so that people could throw it on their city-slicker 4x4 so they could pretend to 'off-road'? But slowly the occasional Rover Disco or Rangey doing the school drop-off turned into the SUV and Ute cropping up everywhere with strong big-dick energy. Companies slapped on branding (in previous times the old Toyota Carolla or if you were fancy the German Mini was the responsible company runabout), tradies ditched their more practical vans for double-cab utes. It was disturbing. Particularly with the cost of petrol/diesel continuing to climb through the roof.
posted by phigmov at 11:40 PM on June 25 [1 favorite]
posted by phigmov at 11:40 PM on June 25 [1 favorite]
My state penalizes you for having an older (smaller) car and rewards you for buying big bullshit. I have some personal theories about who got this law passed. (ie car dealers)
I have also noticed a TON of drivers not pulling up to the line at stoplights. Or they remains sometimes MORE than a full car length behind the driver in front of them at stoplights. My suspicion has long been the school buses all these idiots drive.
posted by readyfreddy at 1:10 AM on June 26
I have also noticed a TON of drivers not pulling up to the line at stoplights. Or they remains sometimes MORE than a full car length behind the driver in front of them at stoplights. My suspicion has long been the school buses all these idiots drive.
posted by readyfreddy at 1:10 AM on June 26
"tradies ditched their more practical vans for double-cab utes. "
There was a huge tax incentive for this: your ute is a work vehicle, and tax deductible/not attracting fringe benefit tax, but the arrival of double cab utes meant the ute made a perfectly adequate family care as well. So the kind of person who claims for their work vehicle opted for double cab utes and used them everywhere.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 2:39 AM on June 26
There was a huge tax incentive for this: your ute is a work vehicle, and tax deductible/not attracting fringe benefit tax, but the arrival of double cab utes meant the ute made a perfectly adequate family care as well. So the kind of person who claims for their work vehicle opted for double cab utes and used them everywhere.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 2:39 AM on June 26
(I think what I call a "ute", short for utility vehicle, is what Americans call a "truck", which for me is a word you can only use for larger vehicles that carry road freight).
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 2:40 AM on June 26
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 2:40 AM on June 26
Safety issues aside, I remain bewildered that anyone wants to pay for the gas for these things. My Honda Fit has an 8 gallon tank.
posted by rhymedirective at 1:55 PM on June 25
You are so close. Are we forgetting the billion dollar corporate media push to make our culture this way?
Reading these articles is depressing. I feel we have forgotten so much so quickly. Do we have a thread from 2005 about CAFE standards? Do we remember protestors burning SUVs for this reason?
Y'all, the goal of the Republican EPA was to increase car sizes, and increase gasoline consumption. At the time, we were hitting peak oil (so fracking was deregulated, and there was a war for oil supply), and the manufacturers needed a boost to sales (they went bankrupt anyway) and oil needed to increase demand.
I also wouldn't be surprised if the car dealerships were also in on the push to make cars bigger.
I feel such despair. The oil lobby just runs circles and circles around the media.
What I remember is that the whole point of the CAFE standards of the time was to make everything a Humvee. Otherwise why were we sending our military, and the US Treasury, into Baghdad? That could not have been pointless, could it?
These stories frame this phenomenon as some accident, rather than the specific plan of the government. I dunno, I remember that making the cars into Humvees was the actual plan of the day. And that plan was to heat the Earth and make Exxon's money.
We're never going to get rid of ExxonMobil, are we? They are just five steps ahead of people. This series of articles makes me feel very tired.
posted by eustatic at 3:23 AM on June 26 [1 favorite]
posted by rhymedirective at 1:55 PM on June 25
You are so close. Are we forgetting the billion dollar corporate media push to make our culture this way?
Reading these articles is depressing. I feel we have forgotten so much so quickly. Do we have a thread from 2005 about CAFE standards? Do we remember protestors burning SUVs for this reason?
Y'all, the goal of the Republican EPA was to increase car sizes, and increase gasoline consumption. At the time, we were hitting peak oil (so fracking was deregulated, and there was a war for oil supply), and the manufacturers needed a boost to sales (they went bankrupt anyway) and oil needed to increase demand.
I also wouldn't be surprised if the car dealerships were also in on the push to make cars bigger.
I feel such despair. The oil lobby just runs circles and circles around the media.
What I remember is that the whole point of the CAFE standards of the time was to make everything a Humvee. Otherwise why were we sending our military, and the US Treasury, into Baghdad? That could not have been pointless, could it?
These stories frame this phenomenon as some accident, rather than the specific plan of the government. I dunno, I remember that making the cars into Humvees was the actual plan of the day. And that plan was to heat the Earth and make Exxon's money.
We're never going to get rid of ExxonMobil, are we? They are just five steps ahead of people. This series of articles makes me feel very tired.
posted by eustatic at 3:23 AM on June 26 [1 favorite]
Also, those darling mini-trucks so useful in the rest of the world are just about illegal in the USA. (See also how a decades-old chicken tax prevents Americans from having nice vehicles in Blocking smaller cars from abroad in this Vox piece.)
The broad strokes of the SUV trend remind me of a line from the impressively-prescient 1973 The social ideology of the motorcar:
posted by daveliepmann at 3:27 AM on June 26 [3 favorites]
The broad strokes of the SUV trend remind me of a line from the impressively-prescient 1973 The social ideology of the motorcar:
From being a luxury item and a sign of privilege, the car has thus become a vital necessity. You have to have one so as to escape from the urban hell of the cars. Capitalist industry has thus won the game: the superfluous has become necessary. There’s no longer any need to persuade people that they want a car; its necessity is a fact of life.The ratchet has simply been tightened another half-turn. A car no longer suffices because the "urban hell" is now joined with a war of all against all on the roads. The superfluous has become the only safe option.
posted by daveliepmann at 3:27 AM on June 26 [3 favorites]
My first car was a 1997 RAV4, which was a perfect vehicle size.
These, and the similar 1st gen CRV are like basically the perfect cars. I completely understand why there's a cult following for the element now, which is basically just a cooler 1st gen CRV.
Me and some of my best friends traveled up and down the west coast going to raves, djing, being dumbasses and sleeping in one of those rav 4s. Even with 4 people, it was basically the perfect size. Even for sleeping, basically the perfect size. it fit enough stuff, and never felt too small or too big. Concurrently, a friend had one of those 80s toyota vans(that were literally just called "the toyota van") which was also basically the perfect size, but much less reliable, amazingly. We hauled all kinds of music and sound gear in it all over the place, which you'd now probably see posted in some dipfuck "look, i used my cybertruck as a truck!" post. Hell, i think it was used as a moving truck once or twice.
The rav 4 would run with no oil in it, at which point you'd stop for gas and pull off the oil cap and a puff of smoke would come out. You'd pour a few quarts of gas station store brand slop into it, and it would run for the rest of your 500 mile drive that day with no issues. I think that thing had like, 320k miles on it when it died. As it was, it had been rescued from the scrap heap with a salvage title.
Over the pandemic, i got a 1st gen xterra for free that wasn't running. It didn't take much to fix it up, and it felt impossible for me to not call it a truck. It felt utterly massive to me. I've driven all kinds of buses and trucks, and it felt like i was piloting some kind of scifi shuttlecraft or fishing boat. I really think its about the same size as the f150 my dad drove as a kid, but so much taller. And yet you take it to the grocery store and you're surrounded by so much bigger SUVs. And i'm not talking about like, suburbans and tahoes and such. The "medium" size honda pilot type suvs are bigger than this fucking thing.
And this is like, a real truck. It has a manual shifter for low range. I've towed multiple cars with it on a flatbed, and dump trailers PILED with scrap and garbage. I hauled a huge load of old air conditioners with it today. But you park it next to like, the newest subaru forrester and it's like the same size. Something that was, in its 1st gen, basically a contemporary of the CRV and rav4. The craziest thing is, this thing has mudders on it and sits real high(although no lift! it was tall from the factory) and almost all these new SUVs sit you just as high.
It just feels absolutely insane to me. And this is coming from someone who really really wishes they could buy like, a reasonably priced small cargo van(of the kind somewhat hard to find in the US) or maybe a late 90s/early 2000s tacoma that wasn't like, 20 fucking thousand dollars used.
posted by emptythought at 4:08 AM on June 26 [2 favorites]
These, and the similar 1st gen CRV are like basically the perfect cars. I completely understand why there's a cult following for the element now, which is basically just a cooler 1st gen CRV.
Me and some of my best friends traveled up and down the west coast going to raves, djing, being dumbasses and sleeping in one of those rav 4s. Even with 4 people, it was basically the perfect size. Even for sleeping, basically the perfect size. it fit enough stuff, and never felt too small or too big. Concurrently, a friend had one of those 80s toyota vans(that were literally just called "the toyota van") which was also basically the perfect size, but much less reliable, amazingly. We hauled all kinds of music and sound gear in it all over the place, which you'd now probably see posted in some dipfuck "look, i used my cybertruck as a truck!" post. Hell, i think it was used as a moving truck once or twice.
The rav 4 would run with no oil in it, at which point you'd stop for gas and pull off the oil cap and a puff of smoke would come out. You'd pour a few quarts of gas station store brand slop into it, and it would run for the rest of your 500 mile drive that day with no issues. I think that thing had like, 320k miles on it when it died. As it was, it had been rescued from the scrap heap with a salvage title.
Over the pandemic, i got a 1st gen xterra for free that wasn't running. It didn't take much to fix it up, and it felt impossible for me to not call it a truck. It felt utterly massive to me. I've driven all kinds of buses and trucks, and it felt like i was piloting some kind of scifi shuttlecraft or fishing boat. I really think its about the same size as the f150 my dad drove as a kid, but so much taller. And yet you take it to the grocery store and you're surrounded by so much bigger SUVs. And i'm not talking about like, suburbans and tahoes and such. The "medium" size honda pilot type suvs are bigger than this fucking thing.
And this is like, a real truck. It has a manual shifter for low range. I've towed multiple cars with it on a flatbed, and dump trailers PILED with scrap and garbage. I hauled a huge load of old air conditioners with it today. But you park it next to like, the newest subaru forrester and it's like the same size. Something that was, in its 1st gen, basically a contemporary of the CRV and rav4. The craziest thing is, this thing has mudders on it and sits real high(although no lift! it was tall from the factory) and almost all these new SUVs sit you just as high.
It just feels absolutely insane to me. And this is coming from someone who really really wishes they could buy like, a reasonably priced small cargo van(of the kind somewhat hard to find in the US) or maybe a late 90s/early 2000s tacoma that wasn't like, 20 fucking thousand dollars used.
posted by emptythought at 4:08 AM on June 26 [2 favorites]
Wider, highway sized lanes in cities due to misguided standardization, allowing wider vehicles. SUVs used to be tall and narrow, which increased rollover risk.
Uhm, isn't the rollover risk why SUVs are no longer tall and narrow? It seems a little far-fetched to believe that SUVs got wider simply because city streets became wider, especially since the number of city streets that have been built or rebuilt since the 1980s is probably a small fraction of the number of streets that remain little wider than their pre-1980s configuration.
Is this is a West Coast thing? Was there a moment in the the past forty years where mayors clicked the bulldozer icon and just plowed every city street to be a few feet wider to meet new standards?
posted by RonButNotStupid at 5:46 AM on June 26
Uhm, isn't the rollover risk why SUVs are no longer tall and narrow? It seems a little far-fetched to believe that SUVs got wider simply because city streets became wider, especially since the number of city streets that have been built or rebuilt since the 1980s is probably a small fraction of the number of streets that remain little wider than their pre-1980s configuration.
Is this is a West Coast thing? Was there a moment in the the past forty years where mayors clicked the bulldozer icon and just plowed every city street to be a few feet wider to meet new standards?
posted by RonButNotStupid at 5:46 AM on June 26
oh yeah i had one of those 1st gen CRVs it was the bomb. that was after the ford explorer that was shit on wheels, but came with nice eddie bauer camp chairs I still have. which came after the dodge caravan that the paint fell off. my (ex-) wife insisted on a Child Transport Vehicle so ok. fair enough though the explorer and caravan had a lot of drywall put through them
posted by seanmpuckett at 6:13 AM on June 26
posted by seanmpuckett at 6:13 AM on June 26
The parking in our condo is underneath the units, so the parking spaces are sized for 1990-size vehicles and cannot be changed. It's not uncommon for families to show up with two of these giant pickup trucks and be surprised that they can't fit.
We have the exact same situation: our building was constructed in 1999. We drive a 2009 Honda Fit stickshift, the best car I've ever owned, and are real worried that as it reaches the end of its useful life we're going to have no choice but to get something bigger. We live in the built-up high-rise part of Atlanta: having a small car is a real advantage.
About three months ago, someone new moved into the building, and their parking spot is right next to ours. They have a Giant Penis Truck, just mammoth, and it does not fit in the parking space. If our car isn't there when they show up, they take up about 30% of the width of ours. The guy whined about it, too: "It's the only way I can get the driver's side door open!" It's been constant back and forth complaints to the HOA. Ms. Hobnail really lectured the guy about overcompensating, which did not help. Finally, a couple of weeks ago, the guy cornered me and was like "How much money will it take for you to give me 1/3 of your parking space?" and I had no blood sugar and was just like aaahh please leave me alone forever.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 6:22 AM on June 26 [6 favorites]
We have the exact same situation: our building was constructed in 1999. We drive a 2009 Honda Fit stickshift, the best car I've ever owned, and are real worried that as it reaches the end of its useful life we're going to have no choice but to get something bigger. We live in the built-up high-rise part of Atlanta: having a small car is a real advantage.
About three months ago, someone new moved into the building, and their parking spot is right next to ours. They have a Giant Penis Truck, just mammoth, and it does not fit in the parking space. If our car isn't there when they show up, they take up about 30% of the width of ours. The guy whined about it, too: "It's the only way I can get the driver's side door open!" It's been constant back and forth complaints to the HOA. Ms. Hobnail really lectured the guy about overcompensating, which did not help. Finally, a couple of weeks ago, the guy cornered me and was like "How much money will it take for you to give me 1/3 of your parking space?" and I had no blood sugar and was just like aaahh please leave me alone forever.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 6:22 AM on June 26 [6 favorites]
it might be coming from the focus of a Canadian consumer
Sadly, the F-150 has also been the top seller in canada since 1996, except for 3 years in the early 00s where it was the dodge caravan, and 2008 when it was (refreshingly) the honda civic.
posted by advil at 8:07 AM on June 26
Sadly, the F-150 has also been the top seller in canada since 1996, except for 3 years in the early 00s where it was the dodge caravan, and 2008 when it was (refreshingly) the honda civic.
posted by advil at 8:07 AM on June 26
My mom lives in a building that was built in the 60s and the parking spots are insanely huge. Like, I regularly park in her spot and think 'I am miles away from the car to my left, I should move over so there's no problem getting the passenger side open' and then I check the passenger side and there are *more* miles of free space on that side. And while her car is relatively small SUV, it's not terribly small.
posted by jacquilynne at 8:12 AM on June 26
posted by jacquilynne at 8:12 AM on June 26
If everyone drove smaller cars, you wouldn't need a road tank to feel safe. But because everyone else is in a road track, you get screwed if you're not.Comments like this show how easy it is to fall for the “big = safe” propaganda. Yes, weight is one factor in auto crash outcomes. But there are so many other factors that can override it.
Some small cars, like the Chevy Bolt and Audi A4, have better safety records than any large SUV in the latest IIHS driver death statistics. A driver of a giant Chevy Suburban was just as likely to die in a crash during this period as the average small car driver. (Based on driver deaths per millions of registered vehicle-years, for 2017–2020 model cars, in US crash data from 2018–2021.)
posted by mbrubeck at 9:05 AM on June 26 [7 favorites]
I ran into this last year when we moved to Maryland. I had to say goodbye to the 17 year old Ford Focus Wagon, which was exactly enough space for hauling family and STUFF, but not absurdly huge or bad on gas mileage. So my plan was to buy a new Toyota Corolla once I got to Maryland.
Well.
You can't just walk onto a lot and BUY a nice small car anymore. They had all the SUVs and Crossovers available, but to get a NEW Corolla, I would have had to order one and then wait 6-8 weeks. So I ended up buying a used Corolla but even that took a two weeks to accomplish, because people love them and drive them to death, so they're just not that available.
Probably, I should have tried pivoting to a Honda Civic, but I kinda fell in love with the Corolla and it was going to be *my* very first brand new car in my entire life. Womp womp.
posted by headspace at 9:56 AM on June 26 [1 favorite]
Well.
You can't just walk onto a lot and BUY a nice small car anymore. They had all the SUVs and Crossovers available, but to get a NEW Corolla, I would have had to order one and then wait 6-8 weeks. So I ended up buying a used Corolla but even that took a two weeks to accomplish, because people love them and drive them to death, so they're just not that available.
Probably, I should have tried pivoting to a Honda Civic, but I kinda fell in love with the Corolla and it was going to be *my* very first brand new car in my entire life. Womp womp.
posted by headspace at 9:56 AM on June 26 [1 favorite]
But there are so many other factors that can override it.
One of them, I think, is how it impacts how other human beings drive around you. When my rav4 was in the shop the Toyota dealership only had a Tundra available as a rental.
While driving it I noticed that oversize trucks were suddenly less... jackass-y. Presumably because now there was enough metal here that... I don't know... now they were worried about themselves more than around smaller vehicles? That the lizard part of their brain that felt like they could just squish smaller cars then carry on with their day was now having to factor in their own safety for once, and exercised more caution because of it.
It was incredibly noticeable over the course of the few days I had it. That certainly drove home the "arms race" aspect of this because there for a moment I considered it. That brief respite was certainly worth something.
Is the vehicle itself safer? Probably not. But the humans operating the other vehicles were. For once.
posted by howbigisthistextfield at 9:58 AM on June 26 [3 favorites]
One of them, I think, is how it impacts how other human beings drive around you. When my rav4 was in the shop the Toyota dealership only had a Tundra available as a rental.
While driving it I noticed that oversize trucks were suddenly less... jackass-y. Presumably because now there was enough metal here that... I don't know... now they were worried about themselves more than around smaller vehicles? That the lizard part of their brain that felt like they could just squish smaller cars then carry on with their day was now having to factor in their own safety for once, and exercised more caution because of it.
It was incredibly noticeable over the course of the few days I had it. That certainly drove home the "arms race" aspect of this because there for a moment I considered it. That brief respite was certainly worth something.
Is the vehicle itself safer? Probably not. But the humans operating the other vehicles were. For once.
posted by howbigisthistextfield at 9:58 AM on June 26 [3 favorites]
Is this is a West Coast thing? Was there a moment in the the past forty years where mayors clicked the bulldozer icon and just plowed every city street to be a few feet wider to meet new standards?
Yes, constantly over the past 40 years. Cities displaced 100,000 people a year for the past 40 years across the entire US. You don't notice it because it's the water you swim in.
posted by The_Vegetables at 10:54 AM on June 26 [1 favorite]
Yes, constantly over the past 40 years. Cities displaced 100,000 people a year for the past 40 years across the entire US. You don't notice it because it's the water you swim in.
posted by The_Vegetables at 10:54 AM on June 26 [1 favorite]
Finally, a couple of weeks ago, the guy cornered me and was like "How much money will it take for you to give me 1/3 of your parking space?"
...maybe they need that giant-ass pickup to haul around their huge sense of entitlement?
posted by xedrik at 2:01 PM on June 26
...maybe they need that giant-ass pickup to haul around their huge sense of entitlement?
posted by xedrik at 2:01 PM on June 26
Some small cars, like the Chevy Bolt and Audi A4, have better safety records than any large SUV in the latest IIHS driver death statistics. A driver of a giant Chevy Suburban was just as likely to die in a crash during this period as the average small car driver.
I think it's likely drivers of over-sized vehicles are more likely to have an accident, due to a combination of over-confidence in their driving ability (maybe compensating for something else?) and the vehicle's poor handling and inability to maneuver quickly to avoid an accident.
So, in terms of single-vehicle accidents, smaller cars may kill fewer people because they're less likely to be involved in an accident in the first place. But if you're involved in a two-car accident between a Bolt and a Suburban, you definitely want to be in the Suburban.
posted by dg at 3:24 PM on June 26
I think it's likely drivers of over-sized vehicles are more likely to have an accident, due to a combination of over-confidence in their driving ability (maybe compensating for something else?) and the vehicle's poor handling and inability to maneuver quickly to avoid an accident.
So, in terms of single-vehicle accidents, smaller cars may kill fewer people because they're less likely to be involved in an accident in the first place. But if you're involved in a two-car accident between a Bolt and a Suburban, you definitely want to be in the Suburban.
posted by dg at 3:24 PM on June 26
Way back when big SUVs started conspicuously taking up road and parking space, there were frequently media articles wondering why this was happening. The explanation that caught my eye was a 'wisdom of crowds' argument. The explanation noted that American families were spending more and more time commuting. Something like an average of 2 hours a day. Canadians are likely in the same ballpark. Given a choice, would a family of four commuting this much want to that time in a cramped compact car, or an SUV big enough to accommodate all the comfort of a living room? Sometimes the need to keep the peace between the children outweighs other considerations. And don't forget all the nervous drivers whose anxiety spikes when they're in the small vehicles on the road. The size of vehicles is outrageous now, but they didn't get to that size for purely appalling reasons.
posted by SnowRottie at 5:37 PM on June 26 [1 favorite]
posted by SnowRottie at 5:37 PM on June 26 [1 favorite]
Though cars have been growing while the number of people per household has been shrinking, in both Canada and the US.
Canada now has one vehicle for every 1.27 people. The US has one vehicle for every 1.1 people. Most cars on the road have only one person in them.
posted by mbrubeck at 6:26 PM on June 26 [2 favorites]
Canada now has one vehicle for every 1.27 people. The US has one vehicle for every 1.1 people. Most cars on the road have only one person in them.
posted by mbrubeck at 6:26 PM on June 26 [2 favorites]
Like, if “keeping the peace between the children” were a significant driver of larger car sizes, wouldn’t we expect to see the trend reverse now that most households have only one or zero children?
posted by mbrubeck at 6:37 PM on June 26 [2 favorites]
posted by mbrubeck at 6:37 PM on June 26 [2 favorites]
I have also noticed a TON of drivers not pulling up to the line at stoplights.
I dont see this as a bad thing? People turning right may actually be able to see over these bohemoths and it gives more leeway for pedestrians (if any).
Or they remains sometimes MORE than a full car length behind the driver in front of them at stoplights. My suspicion has long been the school buses all these idiots drive.
I was also taught that I should at least see the wheels of the car in-front of me, to prevent smashing into them if someone smashes into me from behind.
On to the topic, does Hyundai not make the Elantra GT (which is what they named the hatchback version) anymore? I had one and I loved it. I was hoping to buy a newer version if I ever found myself living in the US again. Currently living in Australia and I'm see them everywhere, though here they're called the i35 or i30.
posted by LizBoBiz at 8:37 PM on June 26 [2 favorites]
I dont see this as a bad thing? People turning right may actually be able to see over these bohemoths and it gives more leeway for pedestrians (if any).
Or they remains sometimes MORE than a full car length behind the driver in front of them at stoplights. My suspicion has long been the school buses all these idiots drive.
I was also taught that I should at least see the wheels of the car in-front of me, to prevent smashing into them if someone smashes into me from behind.
On to the topic, does Hyundai not make the Elantra GT (which is what they named the hatchback version) anymore? I had one and I loved it. I was hoping to buy a newer version if I ever found myself living in the US again. Currently living in Australia and I'm see them everywhere, though here they're called the i35 or i30.
posted by LizBoBiz at 8:37 PM on June 26 [2 favorites]
I was also taught that I should at least see the wheels of the car in-front of me, to prevent smashing into them if someone smashes into me from behind.
This sounds like one of those rules of thumb that was probably great when it was invented, the typical viewing angles from a car meaning you'd keep a sensible distance. It may no longer be a good rule of thumb now that those viewing angles have changed so much that the same rule of thumb puts you twice as far away.
posted by Dysk at 11:01 PM on June 26
This sounds like one of those rules of thumb that was probably great when it was invented, the typical viewing angles from a car meaning you'd keep a sensible distance. It may no longer be a good rule of thumb now that those viewing angles have changed so much that the same rule of thumb puts you twice as far away.
posted by Dysk at 11:01 PM on June 26
(i.e. it's the distance, not the seeing the wheels that's important. If seeing the wheels bo longer correlates to a sensible distance, then that shorthand or rule of thumb is no longer fit for purpose. It's prioritising the process over the outcome.)
posted by Dysk at 11:05 PM on June 26 [1 favorite]
posted by Dysk at 11:05 PM on June 26 [1 favorite]
I was also taught that I should at least see the wheels of the car in-front of me, to prevent smashing into them if someone smashes into me from behind.
This was not mentioned during my driver training, but I read it here, somewhere, a long time ago, and I find the rule useful. Not for some abstract rear-ending possibility, but in order to get around the car ahead if it's stopped and isn't moving - if I can see those tires, I know without backing up that I have enough space to turn aside without hitting the car ahead (if there's nobody beside me). Works with the sedans I drive.
posted by Rash at 5:57 AM on June 27 [1 favorite]
This was not mentioned during my driver training, but I read it here, somewhere, a long time ago, and I find the rule useful. Not for some abstract rear-ending possibility, but in order to get around the car ahead if it's stopped and isn't moving - if I can see those tires, I know without backing up that I have enough space to turn aside without hitting the car ahead (if there's nobody beside me). Works with the sedans I drive.
posted by Rash at 5:57 AM on June 27 [1 favorite]
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posted by toodleydoodley at 7:26 AM on June 25 [27 favorites]